I need some talking off the ledge and am open to some 2x4's...
H came home for the child swap and wanted to talk. He wants more time with the kids, which is reasonable for him to ask even though the kids aren't interested in being away from me. He told me that if I wasn't going to work with him then we needed to go to mediation. I validated his position and said that I needed some time to think about what that would look like for us all.
He then brought up some R stuff and the timeline our of 'issues'. I spoke about how I felt that we haven't really even given our R a chance, that we have only spent a couple months in MC, these 'issues' are new to me and I feel like our R and our children deserve for us to give everything we have, if even for a short period of time, before making a decision. He told me he has had these issues for 13 years, has been thinking about them the whole time and he doesn't think anything can change. And me even asking for a chance to work on them invalidates his process, invalidates how long and hard he has thought about all of this. Which may be true, but I know that the majority of his 'processing' has taken place in his head and probably also with OW/EA (I really don't think that he wants to build a life with OW, she has her own kids, lives across the country, I know he won't leave our kids to move there, etc). He seems fairly resolute, talks about things like 'when we split up', but won't commit to one way or another. Says he needs more time and space to really figure out what he wants. I asked if he needed time and space to accept a D, or time and space to figure out if he wants to work on the MR. He said both. But every indication he is giving me is that he wants a D.
We have been in a limbo state (sort of) working on the R since October. Separated since beginning of April. The kids are fed up with the confusion, they are telling their friends we are getting a D, even though we haven't said that we are. Our eldest told me he wished we could just decide so we could all get used to things and move on. That it is horrible for them and they hate it. We don't fight in front of the kids, there is no animosity in their presence, they just hate this limbo state of not knowing what's happening with us as a family.
I know everyone is going to say that time is my friend, but I am so sick of feeling blindsided by more 'issues'. I am a fixer, of a growth mindset and would have done everything in my power to change/grow/be a better person if I had known about his issues. I am hurt by the re-writing of our past and am feeling like a doormat. I mean, how awfully amazing would it be to step outside of your real life and spend days on end thinking about yourself and what you want right now in these quarantined times? While someone emotionally and physically cares for your children and your home, patiently waiting for heartbreak and destruction. He is a good dad and plugged in with the kids when he is with them, so that I am not complaining there.
I am both sad and angry at the moment, but the prevailing emotion is wanting him to just p*** or get off the pot. If he wanted to be with me, if he wanted to work on our MR, he would be here, doing those things. But he's not. And he is not giving me any indication that he wants to, or plans to in the future. I don't even get breadcrumbs these past couple of weeks. I am so confused by our reconciliation a few weeks ago, to this now. Hope, then despair.
I feel like I have been holding the flame for a long time, but am getting sick of it. I am worth so much more than this.
I'm really sorry you are struggling right now. As a fixer you are really struggling because you can fix your marriage without your H participation. You brain thinks that getting your H to make a decision no matter what the decision is going to make the pain go away but it won't. Your H using the threat of mediation if you don't let him see the kids more is very manipulative on his part. What you really need to do is give more more space then he is asking for and go out and live your most exciting life. If he wants to be a part of then great but if he doesn't that's ok too because your life is awesome anyways. I always amazed when posters are upset that aren't getting breadcrumbs and temp checks. You don't want that because that just messes with your mind.
If you truly know your value that don't settle for anything less. Time and space are your friend right now.
Thanks, LH, I needed this. I spoke with a friend last night that knows our situation and was given the same advice as you gave. It doesn’t make it easier, but I feel more confident in my wait it out approach. I also wrote a long list of all the considerations we would need to negotiate in the event of a D. Our life and lifestyle is complicated and it was pages long. I don’t plan to do anything with that list just yet, but making it made me feel more empowered and less of a victim of my circumstance. Again, I am so grateful for the wise voices on this forum.
Are you living together under the same roof, Sage? If not, then I'd suggest you go way way way way way darker than you are.
Your H might ask to talk now and again - but from the sounds of it, he has no idea what he wants. You can't help him work that out and nor should you. If he doesn't know what he wants, he doesn't want a marriage to you. And if he doesn't want to be actively engaged in a marriage with you, you respect that and step right back.
My H used to do the same thing. He'd say he wanted to work on things, but not yet, or say he wanted to work on things, but when asked, actually only had a list of things I had to 'fix'. At that time he felt that my making changes as an attempt to fix the marriage was actually just me manipulating him into being nicer to me actually made him angry. Even when I did what he wanted me to do, he got angry as he felt I could have done it before and didn't so my 180s were like salt in the would. Even when he started to say he was committed to fixing the marriage, my asking for a conversation about what changes I needed from him was so provocative to him it triggered some really angry behaviour from him. And me validating and listening just gave him an audience for him winding himself up into a lather - he had no idea what he wanted and being in the room while he worked it out or had a tantrum because he couldn't work it out didn't help at all.
Your H sounds like he has a better handle on his temper than mine did, so lots of this may not apply. But perhaps what does apply is what if your H is not ready to look at his own role in your problems, is able to get some insight into the causes of his own behaviour (rather than putting it all on your feet) and has a clear goal in mind - either an amicable divorce or a reconciliation - then pretty much ANYTHING you do will at best have no effect at all and at worst really irritate him.
So what you do is give him so much space it feels unnatural, and concentrate on your own stuff. He will get his stuff together and come back to you, pleasantly surprised (and perhaps a bit scared) at how well you are doing. Or he never gets his stuff together, and you get yourself into a position where someone so messed up isn't remotely attractive to you anymore.
It is much much much harder than I just made it sound. And when people outlined this to me I didn't believe it. I thought that being kinder, or more generous, or angrier, or more - something - would be the key to sorting my H out and getting him back in the family home and behaving the way I wanted him to behave. But it turned out to be true for me and true for lots of other people on here.
Are there some practical things you can to now to give a bit more space? Avoid R talks like the PLAGUE. Pretend you are busy, or make listening noises but commit to nothing, or say you need more time to think over what he's said (but don't - most of what he says when he's in this place is rubbish) - or say you have some work to do, or a phone call to make - anything at all to slide out of an R talk without a confrontation.
I just want to second a couple of Alison's recommendation-- one, go much, much darker than you are right now. He says he wants time and space... great, give it to him! And you take that same time/space to focus on YOU and what you want. Think of it like another 180-- a good stretch of time where you are not being the one to reach out, to fix things, talking about your R-- and letting him really sit in what that feels like. Also, avoid R talks LIKE THE PLAGUE is 100% right.
Ideally, you are not sitting at home waiting for heartbreak and destruction. You're using this time to invest in yourself. What do you love to do? What parts of yourself have you lost in your MR to your H, or by being a mom? Take this time to get to know yourself as Sage again, not Sage-the-mom or Sage-the-wife or Sage-the-business partner. Whatever it is you like to do that you haven't been able to do so much, do them! Watch the TV shows you like, not just the ones you could compromise on and liked as a couple. Eat the food you like and he hates. Work out, do yoga, meditate, take a long bath, learn to play the ukulele... whatever it is that feeds your soul.
Are you nesting? What do you do when you don't have the kids?
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Allison and May, thank you for the great advice. I have been trying to avoid R talks, but get sucked into them under the guise of discussing the children or other neutral arenas of our life. I am recognizing that I need a firm boundary here, if only in my own mind. Something along the lines of 'I will not get sucked into a R talk for the next 2 weeks' and then just do Allison's suggestion of avoiding it at ALL costs. As a newbie to this, I am vacillating between validating and going dark. But it's obvious to me now that those two things can't be done at the same time.
For the most part, I am able to keep busy and feel like I have done a decent job of GALing despite Covid. I have a consistent outdoor exercise routine that is vital for my mental and physical health, I meditate, write and have some work projects that keep me occupied. I also have a large cohort of supportive friends and family, not all of whom know the details of my sitch, but the few that do are great outlets. I stay with a family member during my days away from the 'nest' and actually appreciate the opportunity to be on my own, sleep without littles disrupting me and read late into the night if I want. I would say that I enjoy the break, if I am really honest. But I would still prefer to be with my family.
H had a breakdown when I came back to switch out the kids today. He accuses me of making him feel like the most awful person in the world. Because I have refused to take ownership in his decision to leave us. My reasoning is that if he wants to leave, then he has to own it. This isn't something 'we' have decided to do, it is something 'he' has decided to do. He is in the driver's seat, not me. This is what we discussed with our MC at our last session a couple of months ago and I have held firm. Which is hard for me because I hate seeing him emotionally uncomfortable and have tended to step in and soothe/fix in the past.
My challenge is that he definitely has NGS and has spent his whole life trying to please people. Mostly me, although I didn't always recognize it. I don't have the same need to please, although I am a warm, nurturing 'giver' by nature. I just tend to ask for what I need and don't get bent out of shape if someone says no. And because that is how I operate, I just assume people will ask me for what they need too. I am very approachable and 99% of the time I say yes, often to my own detriment (say yes to too many things, push myself beyond my capacity etc).
I also believe that H has a stack of covert contracts that I never got around to fulfilling for him, simply because I didn't know they existed. All of my contracts were fulfilled, because I was clear about my needs and how he could fill them. So now he feels like he gave and gave and I didn't reciprocate (I did, just not the contracts that I didn't know about, which just so happen to be the most important ones to him). And then you throw EA/OW who is desperate to fulfill his contracts and we have a right old mess.
So not listening, not validating and going dark trigger his negative feelings about our MR. And yet I know that is what I need to do, for me as much as him right now. I'll stop for now, this is a lot.
((Hugs)) Well done on standing your ground on who's giving up, and some great introspection, too. I tend to be more assertive like you, which is tricky when partners don't speak up about their needs. It leads to situations where we give strongly, but not in the ways that matter most to them, leading to a disconnect.
SO he feels terrible, and that must be your fault, right? Gosh, that brings back memories. I suggest you don't reassure him that he isn't actually an awful person, but you don't give him suggestions to make himself feel better either. This is his journey and he needs to make it on his own.
You're really good at articulating where you feel he is going wrong. I'm going to suggest you leave all that on the back burner now. He won't want to hear your opinions on that, and really, he's will have to come to these realisations himself and work on them himself if he's going to be any good to you as a husband.
He's probably got a similar list of things about you. And while he obsesses with that list, he gets nowhere with his own personal growth. It's also - as you are learning - tiresome and hurtful to be around someone obsessed with your shortcomings.
Here is your 2x4 (which no doubt you could see coming). What things do you need to work on? How did you contribute to where your marriage is now? Not your H's truths and opinions - these don't matter for now - but your own?
Addressing these is your task now - and involves pretty much what May says it does - concentrating on nourishing yourself, caring for yourself, knowing yourself, and getting to the bottom of changes and improvements you want to make to your way of doing relationships. You have time for that right now.
SO he feels terrible, and that must be your fault, right? Gosh, that brings back memories. I suggest you don't reassure him that he isn't actually an awful person, but you don't give him suggestions to make himself feel better either. This is his journey and he needs to make it on his own.
You're really good at articulating where you feel he is going wrong. I'm going to suggest you leave all that on the back burner now. He won't want to hear your opinions on that, and really, he's will have to come to these realisations himself and work on them himself if he's going to be any good to you as a husband.
He's probably got a similar list of things about you. And while he obsesses with that list, he gets nowhere with his own personal growth. It's also - as you are learning - tiresome and hurtful to be around someone obsessed with your shortcomings.
Such good advice. A, thank you. I feel like yesterday I finally reached the truly ‘tired of all this’ stage. I feel capable of detaching and dropping the rope. I think this has been building for me for a while, but finally I can truly understand that I am only in the way of his process and I need to nimbly jump out of the way now. To save myself, mostly, but also in a way, it saves him. I don’t want to be a part of a relationship that includes another woman, a relationship where I am a whipping post, or more gently, a cause for another person’s suffering. I can’t change him or convince him or give him what he needs in a relationship at the moment.
I can only step aside and work on the changes I have been cultivating for the past few months. Getting out of my depression, getting my body and mind back, being the best person I can be for myself and my kids. I have been doing gymnastics around bettering myself for our relationship. I have been suffering from the rejection of it all and I have allowed myself to feel unworthy of any love. But the more I come back to myself (teeny, tiny baby steps, I’m not completely there yet), the more I realize that I am actually a good person, worthy of love and affection.
I’m sure I’ll be back in tears again sometime in the near future, second-guessing all that I have just written, but for this moment in time I am one step ahead of where I was a week ago.
I had a good weekend of doing my own thing and have been feeling detached, but now I am spiraling.
Came home to swap out with H for my days with the kids and something he said has been sitting with me and making me feel suspicious. A week ago, my sister invited me and the kids to spend a couple of weeks with her in another state. Sometime in late June or early July. The kids were thrilled at the idea, and H was OK with it, but it brought up some custody/time with the kids discussions and I needed more time to think about it. In addition, her state has a strict quarantine regulation, as well as the consideration of flying right now, exposure to Covid etc. A lot to think about.
When I came home, H said that the kids had been talking about it and they were keen to go. And he was keen to let us. He even shared what he thought would be ideal timing for that to happen. I shared some of my concerns and that I hadn't made a decision yet and needed to think about it more. He understood and asked me to just let him know.
On paper, this all sounds reasonable. But something isn't sitting right for me with all of this and I am worried that he wants to get rid of us for a couple of weeks so he can spend time with OW (who lives far away, one or the other of them would need to travel to see each other). Am I being paranoid? I know that they are still texting/communicating. The last communication I saw included her saying she loved him and him calling her baby. He will be much better at hiding everything now, I am sure. And although I only have proof that it is an EA, I am sure it is also a circumstantial PA as well.
What should I do?
His continued communication with her also brings up emotions for me and our current situation with nesting. He has a pretty ideal situation: lovely home, kids whose lives aren't too disrupted by the S, doesn't have to think about really moving out, doesn't have to think too much about the general maintenance of the kids (there is always food in the house, I keep it clean and do the kids' laundry, I do most of the at home schooling). AND he gets to keep his EA going.
