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Thread #1: 6 Months of MLC
Thread #2: Learning how to stand, hope, and keep moving
Thread #3: Searching for calm with shelter-in-place roommate
Quick recap: BD June 2019; M 10 years, T 16. Roommates.


With much gratitude for all the support from the board, I am happy to say I was able to find calm with my sometimes-seems-like-a-teenager roommate H during these long stay-at-home orders. I've spent time meditating and practicing mindfulness. I've found a lot of joy over the past two months, got slightly derailed by H's blowing up at me, and regrouped, got back on the calm and grateful path.

wooba, may, Gerda, I was so grateful for your posts, questions, and guidance at the end of my last thread. I've been reflecting quite a bit on our past relationship and how I have struggled to find and project compassionate indifference over the almost-year since BD.

Originally Posted by wooba
The brief & disinterested responses are totally counter-intuitive because we are trained to be caretakers and fixers. But just as you were trained to do the things you used to do before, you can train yourself with using these responses, and eventually it will become easier.

This really resonated with me, wooba. I think over the last couple of years of our M, when H seemed to be increasingly prone to anger (while usually saying he wasn't angry—and maybe whatever he was really feeling wasn't anger but it came out that way), I think I stepped up this role even more. I no longer worry about looking after his feelings or trying to soothe him if he is frustrated. Of course, I shouldn't have felt that was my responsibility before either, but it is part of being trained to be a caretaker, I think. It was also part of my feeling guilty for the SSM, feeling, without realizing it, that whatever anger he demonstrated must be my fault, because: SSM. Nope--he is responsible for his feelings and how he expresses them, works (or not) to understand them, and he was responsible for communicating with me.

Originally Posted by may22
Cardinal, I was wondering something. Whenever I read your posts (and this may be totally wrong, so please forgive me if I'm misinterpreting) I get the feeling that you are making yourself small, kind of, for him. You are always accommodating, kind, quiet.

[...]

Be YOU without any worries of what he'll think or how he'll feel or what he'll do. I'm not saying be a jerk, or be like him. Just don't be afraid to be yourself and to not think about him at all for awhile, if you can.Be YOU without any worries of what he'll think or how he'll feel or what he'll do. I'm not saying be a jerk, or be like him. Just don't be afraid to be yourself and to not think about him at all for awhile, if you can.


Originally Posted by Gerda
He won't see you as you during MLC, no matter how small or big you are. Only do things for you, to find yourself again.


Thank you for chiming in, Gerda! You have been through so much, and I so admire your strength and am always appreciative of your advice. It rings true that it is sometimes hard to know why you're doing anything when you're living with an MLCer. I think only in retrospect have I understood the ways I have been over-accommodating.

May, I think I made myself smaller for the last stretch of our M and definitely after BD. It is part of my ongoing work to try to identify when I am doing this and ask what do I want, not how might it affect him. It becomes ingrained and hard for me to recognize. On the one hand, I do want to fly under the radar sometimes--I'd rather him not notice me, not interact with me, want to just stay in my own little world. On the other, this is my house too, and I don't want to make myself invisible because I feel it's easier for him, you know?

I, of course, like your suggestion to eat all the ice cream. One thing I did: I bought mulch and spread it over the landscaped area of the yard I worked so hard to create a couple of years ago, and it was glorious. Nothing more beautiful than fresh-spread mulch. Well, it is one of many beautiful things.

Kindness for me and for him is being kind to myself and not giving him a pass on behavior that is not respectful. Kindness is respecting myself.

Originally Posted by may22
He goes as far as to invite someone over into your home during this pandemic and when you have the temerity to simply say it made you feel uncomfortable, he goes ballistic.


Right, and he framed it as me being controlling, and I know I wasn't trying to control him and was justified in sharing my concern, but... some part of me still feels like I'm exaggerating his behavior there, some part of me still has to fight against the way he tried to make me feel awful for even bringing it up! I'm still struggling a bit with feeling like I'm the only one experiencing this side of him in "real life." I think the more I get comfortable with indifference, the more I can be calm and strong and detached (like wooba!) no matter how he tries to project or blame me. Reading through the answer's to Sage4's question ("For those of you who had WAS’s return at some point, were they ever really contemptuous or mean to you about the things you said or boundaries you put up?") has been very helpful for me as well.

So: compassionate indifference is my focus for this thread. I remember DnJ writing about the feelings of love we have for our spouse being put away for the time being (of course, he phrases it much more eloquently), and that's where I'm at. I don't want to replace those feelings with anger. I want to be my generally kind and quiet self without shrinking and letting him walk all over me. Please do call me out on this, if you notice it. Like Gerda said, he won't see me as me right now anyway, no matter what I do.

It is too hot to bake this week! I made bread over the weekend and will have to plan my next bake. May, I'm glad you found yeast. I was so excited to find two bags of unbleached flour the other week.

Last edited by cardinal; 05/25/20 11:05 PM.

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Hello cardinal

I like your thread title.

Indifference creates a void where once our love filled. The love is not gone, just placed away for a while. This is a good path of healing; one can reach significant inner work when not distracted by our MLCer’s behaviours.

However, this absence of feelings allows other emotions to look larger than they really are. Do not make decisions based on emotions. Remember feelings are fleeting. Find your beliefs.

Temptations will loom and beckon, these are just temporary. Find yourself.

You are wise in realizing that anger could easily replace the now vacant love. Strive for compassion. Be gentle and kind.

That is the key. You deserve the gentle and kind life. Live it. Be gentle. Close the cupboard door gently smile. If you remember from previous posts of mine. Physical actions influence thoughts and feelings, which in turn influence beliefs. You want the kind and compassionate life and beliefs; you start with being kind and compassionate to you.

Fill that void with compassion, understanding, and forgiveness - for yourself.

Towards H: Do not give in to grudges, anger, and hatred. Vengeance inhibits progress on the road you seek. You have indifference, which allows you to not care (so much). It is easy to get lost here. Focus on you. Dig deep and be patient. You’ve got the gift of time, use it wisely.

Create, alter, and strengthen those beliefs you want. Discard those that do not serve you. Live and stand in the light.

Compassion extends from within you. You must have it within yourself. You must believe and live it.

Compassionate and indifference, at first seem like oil and water. They appear so dissimilar; caring and not caring?!? It’s ok, you can hold both at the same time. They aren’t as different as they first seem.

A lot happens once you get to this point. Compassion, empathy, forgiveness, freedom... It’s an incredible journey, with many blessings.

I really like your title. Your heading. This is a good path, IMHO. And it is very much for you.

DnJ


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I am honored to have you set me on my path to exploring compassionate indifference with the first reply, DnJ! I do have a question to pose to everyone, but first a few thoughts in response on compassionate indifference:

Originally Posted by DnJ
Indifference creates a void where once our love filled. The love is not gone, just placed away for a while. This is a good path of healing; one can reach significant inner work when not distracted by our MLCer’s behaviours.

Many times after BD (and the WAS/MLCer's declaration that love is gone, not placed away for a while), I have thought how sad an idea it is that love can disappear. I don't think I realized until BD how seriously I took marriage. Love can and does change and feel different in long-term relationships. I didn't think it could actually be gone, because even in the absence of feeling love sometimes, I never doubted it was there. I believed love, I suppose. I lived it by letting go of resentments and accepting flaws in my partner, because I knew I also had flaws. Everyone does—I believe there is no perfect match, no effortless partnership. What is impatience in one partner could be some other less desirable quality in another.

That moment wooba described—of really looking at her H and feeling no resentment or sadness or longing—I wonder about it. I haven't really looked at my H in a while. I glance, and it is a glance not at my H but at this new guy, and I don't usually feel angry or hurt when I glance at him. Still a little confused and surprised sometimes, maybe, if I look. Sometimes my mind wanders to good memories and I know I could call up love again if I really wanted to. I don't, though; I let the memories dissolve and redirect my attention. They can call up sadness as well as love.

Originally Posted by DnJ
That is the key. You deserve the gentle and kind life. Live it. Be gentle. Close the cupboard door gently smile.

DnJ, did I write about H getting frustrated at the cupboard? I swore I had, but now I can't find the reference in my older posts. One of the things I've always noticed about H (increasingly over the years) is that he is easily frustrated, and it sometimes manifests in what to me feels like anger. The other week, he was trying to find something in the cupboard. I could hear him throwing everything out of it onto the floor from the other room, cursing, etc. He didn't find what he was looking for. When I opened the cupboard hours later, it was in disarray. He'd shoved everything back in as forcefully as he'd thrown it out. I carefully removed everything again to find what I was now looking for (since the contents were all in a very different place) and discovered some glass he'd broken in the process of his earlier search. I sat on the floor and cleaned it up, found what I was looking for, put everything back, and softly closed the cupboard door. smile

I keep returning to these words from bttrfly as well (bttrfly, how are the chickens?):
Originally Posted by bttrfly
i guess my main thought today is this: is it really so very hard to be compassionate towards the person you made vows with? isn't that just an extension of the love you feel towards your spouse? underneath all the pain and anguish - in fact, if you didn't love, would this bother you at all? it wouldn't. your pain is in proportion to the love you feel for your spouse. dig deep. deeper. underneath it all i promise you is a bottomless well of compassion.

I hope it will get easier, or more natural, to maintain this perspective over time, because it makes a lot of sense. (Suddenly it doesn't seem like it will necessarily get easier.)

Here is my question, maybe not entirely unrelated: an old friend of mine who became more H's friend over the last many years has reached out to me, basically with an email just wanting to reconnect. Can I talk to her about what I'm going through with H? All she knows is probably what he's told others (he's been unhappy for a long time, we're getting a D). After BD last year she reached out to me and just said H had been really distant with her since everything started happening with us, i.e. BD.

Brief context: H kind of BD'ed their friendship around the same time as our M, as he told me she never really appreciated him enough as a friend (hmm... some echoes of my not appreciating him enough there.) H told me at the beginning of this year they weren't really friends anymore. He'd already been hanging with his new friend group for months. Many times I've read that we should be careful speaking to friends—it will be hard enough for the WAS/MLCer to face what they've done, if they do, is one rationale. I also remember feeling lighter reading a comment wayfarer made once, to wooba, I think—basically that sometimes we need to talk to someone and can't always let our concern for the MLCer's outweigh our own needs. I feel this need to protect him if any future R would take place; at the same time, I think, if that's the kind of thing that would stop future R, or deter him, than he wouldn't be ready to reconcile anyway.

I don't know if talking to her about what I'm going through will make me feel worse (because I'll worry about her somehow seeing H and affecting the situation in some way) or better. But I don't feel I can be close with her again if I have to censor myself. I sometimes feel like I'm distancing myself from friends because I end up worrying that something I share will somehow affect the situation for the worse, now or later. That doesn't seem right either.


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Go ahead and talk to her if you feel you can use the outlet.

When my ex first cheated on me, I hid that info from my family, as I knew they would never forgive him. We reconciled and I was glad at the time that I hadn't disclosed it, but it also deprived me of the solace and advice of my family at that time. And he ended up leaving a few years later anyway.

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Hello cardinal

I agree with kml. Talk to her.

You are correct, how can you be close friends if you have to censor yourself. I told my friends what had happened at BD. Most stayed my friends, some did not. Three particular families sided with XW. Going so far as cutting the kids out of their lives as well as me.

In all the chaos, silver linings and blessing abound. One of those, is learning who is a true friend and will stand along side of you. People’s inner light does tend to shine through during this.

Start small with her and see where it goes. It is only an email to reconnect, and she may also be attempting to reconnect with H. Be cognizant of the possibility of her being a conduit of information to H, intentionally or unintentionally. This caution would be especially pertinent for legal and businesslike matters.

I’m sorry, you at times feel distance or isolated from your friends. It is good to consider what you are going to say and the potential affects. However, if you are following your values with having open honest discussions, and it costs a few friendships, perhaps those weren’t as valuable a friendship as you thought.

From one friend to another,

DnJ


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You need your troops now more than ever. I've told a few more people in my circle about my sitch in the last few months. I also worry about the consequences of letting others know, mainly that my H is prideful and it will probably affect the likelihood of his return, but sometimes conversations with close friends just head that way and the timing seems right to divulge. I don't intentionally air it all out, but I feel like when the timing is right, and I feel safe to talk to that person, I let that reservation go. I can't hold on to H's "secret" forever.


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Here's the deal. I know one of the big rules around here is don't talk about it. Like our marriages falling to shambles are a fight club. And I believe that to a point, just due to the shame factor, that's a lot to come back from the bigger that circumference of shame is. I get it. But it's kind of unfair that not only are we to quietly wait them out, but we are supposed to do so alone. Granted I'm an outlier as it is because my H was so convinced he and OW were going to run off into the sunset he was aggressively not discrete about what he was doing. The handful of people I let in were already asking what was going on based on his social media alone. And then my behavior, completely dropping out of socializing entirely with or without H, and then going out constantly alone, and with friends I hadn't been out with in ages was kind of a tip. The fact is no one who knows you guys is unaware of the fact something is off. Yes it's probably better to share the details after the fact or not at all. But that also leaves room open for speculation. The world that we live in we are connected constantly. The idea of keeping these things hidden like a dirty little secret is practically impossible. And you, my friend,unlike me are dealing with a very, very long haul. A full blown MLC. You need people. You need a safe space. And you need your tribe. Like everything around here you need to do what best for you and your sitch. My personal take on this is this woman is a perfect candidate to bring into the fold. She is reaching out to you, not H. She clearly is already half way there knowing what's going on basically being dumped as a friend by H. She knows both of you well. She could be a great person for you to rely on, open up to, and connect with.

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And just so you know. I'm always checking on you. I just don't have much to say other than I care, and I'm here cheering for you and crying with you.

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Cardinal,

Since a "friend" is reaching out, then connect w/her. When she begins to ask questions, you can be honest about what is going on, but there is no reason that you need to tell her everything. I would test the waters w/her for a bit before I shared quite a bit w/her.

Everyone needs someone to talk to you and you have to be the one to decide who you are going to allow into your "inner" circle at this time. If you eventually feel safer w/her, then you can provide additional info.

Time will tell if she's just fishing for info or she truly is wanting to be there for you.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Hi Cardinal,

On the friend.. I agree with the others. I'd connect. I have one IRL friend who knows everything and has been so incredibly helpful and healing. I like WF's fight club analogy... cracks me up... but it is true how isolating it can all be.

Originally Posted by Cardinal
I feel this need to protect him if any future R would take place; at the same time, I think, if that's the kind of thing that would stop future R, or deter him, than he wouldn't be ready to reconcile anyway.


Honestly? I wouldn't think about it as protecting HIM. He has done nothing to deserve your protection. I would think about it more along the lines of protecting YOURSELF, and to the degree it is an issue in the future, protecting yourselves together as a couple. When I read DR (and all the other literature, it seems people are all in alignment on this one), I took away more around choosing who you speak with carefully but also the importance of having someone to talk to. That it can be really difficult for a lot of people who love you to support you unconditionally as they hate to see you in pain, and may push you in a particular direction and/or have a hard time understanding why you aren't just dumping that creep. So I guess I'd be more thinking about if this friend is someone who can support you no matter what, rather than what your H may think about it now or in the future.

I also totally understand the feelings around censoring yourself. One of my very best friends is someone who cannot keep things to herself and I just can't tell her all that is going on. I found myself actually seeing her less because it was so hard to say yes things are fine! When they weren't. I ended up talking to her about some parts of all of this (she knows H well and we travel together as families so she'd also experienced some of the anger and resentment he was displaying in the past)-- I've told her I think H is in some level of MLC, talked about some of the things he had been saying and about the SSM, both on my side and then later on his. It was really helpful to be able to share at least that amount with her, without going into the full depth of the A. In your case, without an A, I feel like it would be a lot easier for friends to understand why you are choosing to stand and easier for them to support you.

Originally Posted by Cardinal
It's been more than a year and your H hasn't forgiven you; it's no surprise, then, that my H still seems super angry sometimes, and he's off in his own MLC world. When I wrote the apology letter last fall, I straight up apologized, without offering explanations or reasons, for my part in the SSM and the fact that I hadn't been able to make changes I needed to make. So, this probably isn't the right attitude, but part of me thinks... really? Why is it taking so long for him to forgive you? You can't change the past! I also realize this is my impatience, my wanting my H to forgive me, my feeling like I deserve forgiveness myself, even though I know that his granting it is beyond my control. I know reclaiming your sexuality has been really empowering for you regardless of your H, may, but in that process did you every struggle with blaming yourself or fully forgiving yourself? If so, was letting go of this a gradual process for you or did it just click one day?

I too have apologized unconditionally multiple times, starting last February. He seems to only remember the times where I talked more about what I was learning about the reasons why, which then became excuses.

I think there are two issues here-- one, I think the SSM and feeling unwanted/unloved was really damaging to him, far more I think than it would be to me, for instance. He has more of a need to feel desired than I do, while he comes off as totally confident and almost arrogant he's actually fairly insecure, he cares waaaay more about what other people think of him than I do. It has always puzzled me, the degree to which other people's opinions matter to him. So partially I think it is difficult for me to grasp just how much the SSM for all those years hurt him. (I actually think some of those feelings for him might have started back when we were first trying to get pregnant, when it was more difficult than we thought it would be and sex became less about desiring each other and more about getting pregnant. I think he felt to a certain degree like I didn't want him for himself but just to make a baby. And truthfully? That isn't totally off the mark.)

The other big issue is that he made the SSM his central platform for justifying his A, so forgiving me for that, accepting it could change-- all somehow makes what he did seem worse. That if he could see it all as an inevitable chain of events that couldn't be stopped and started with me not loving/wanting him, it was less his fault and his choice. It just happened and wouldn't have happened if not for the SSM. Forgiving me for this I think is actually inextricably linked to forgiving himself for the A. And over the past few days thinking on all this and getting input from others here, I think (again, I keep coming back to the same place... slow learner) that this is his journey, not mine, and I need to let go and let him go through this process himself.

On forgiving myself-- I did forgive myself, a long time ago. I am not one for regret. I know I did my best with the tools and knowledge I had at the time. I went to a couple of doctors who all said NBD, happens all the time. I read a lot about it (not anything to the extent I'm doing now... more like articles online) and talked to friends who were barely sleeping with their Hs too. I just didn't grasp the situation, and H didn't do a very good job of communicating it to me. (This is actually one of my beefs I haven't really brought up with him-- literally the only times we talked about it was in bed, when I'd say no, and he'd blow up and I'd get defensive. He thinks looking back he told me how bad it was over and over and I didn't listen... but to be honest, he didn't really tell me in a way I could hear.)

Of course, I wish things had gone differently in many ways, but I know there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. I can't go back in time. We're here now and I'm really mostly concerned with how to move forward (though I obviously still need patience here too.) So no, I didn't really struggle with self-forgiveness on this. I did the best I could at the time. Now I can do better.

And, I don't feel like I need his forgiveness for myself. I have forgiven myself and it doesn't matter to me all that much, personally, if he does too... I more want him to forgive me for the benefit of our R and M2.0. Does that make sense? I'm comfortable in sitting with what happened and what I did and that I'm sincerely sorry. I don't really need him to say it's OK to make me feel better. I want him to say it's OK so that he can let that go and we can be together without that huge pile of resentment sitting in between us.

The other thing that helps me is this-- I know myself at that time would NEVER have opened anything that even smelled of a self-help book. It would have embarrassed me to even think about opening one. It took the depths of that first BD, realizing my H meant it when he said ILYBINILWY, that D was on the table, for me to swallow my pride and start reading. So, the best I would have done in order to address the SSM was the only advice I knew at the time-- fake it til you make it. And I think I never would have come to the place I am today in terms of embracing my own sexuality. I'd probably be where I was before, not that into it but doing my wifely duty as infrequently as I could get away with but keeping my H "satisfied." So... I guess I also am looking at the silver lining to all of this, the things I've learned about myself that I wouldn't have if this crisis didn't happen. We may not have had an SSM if I'd taken it more seriously at the time, but I don't think I would have been all that fulfilled.

Does that help? I feel there are some areas that make our sitches hard to align, with the A being such a major part of mine. Do you think there are things your H is holding onto that you don't know about that may be driving some of his behavior and/or reluctance to move past the SSM and forgive you? I may just be projecting, but it might help explain some things.


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It's been a long week—my first back to work, though, at least for now, the shop is open with reduced hours, and I am grateful I am still at part-time. My boss is disorganized, and it's been a stressful re-entry, with my having to ready the store for customers and make sure my boss is providing disinfectants, etc., all while I am reminded I don't get sick days. I've found two other jobs to apply for this week.

Thank you so much, kml, job, Dnj, wayfarer, wooba, and may, for advising me on this friend who has reached out, and for sharing your own experiences. (may, I want to respond more to your thoughts on the SSM in another post, but thank you so much for expanding on it here in my thread.) I feel better about emailing her back, but haven't yet. In some ways, it's also exhausting to think about bringing someone else into the circle of what's going on in my life. Maybe that's another reason I resist reaching out or, in this case, responding, even though it would be nice to have another local friend who's known both of us to connect with. This journey is such a long haul.

I've thought about the board often, and at times am overwhelmed with thoughts as I approach the year anniversary of BD. I haven't had time to sit down and read or write much here. H is also going back to his bartending gig this week—I overheard the phone call. He got a new trendy haircut.

I feel like since I've been gone and just don't go out of my way to approach him anymore, even with friendly-cashier type questions, we've barely exchanged words lately. I sometimes feel conflicted for not asking, for example, how his first night back at work went, or following up on something he told/showed me before, or, if he's in the same room, remarking on the weather. But then I think--he doesn't want me to be his friend. He doesn't want me to care what's going on in his life. So is this the right balance? Not cold, just... uninterested, I guess, unless he shares something first.

I'm feeling a bit sad that it's been a year since we were married (even though we still are), and since we were friends.

The week before BD, H was excited to take me out to dinner.

The thing that keeps coming back to me from BD lately is the way he had an avalanche of complaints, bookended with the statement that he hadn't been happy for years (standard issue, I guess), and basically resolved everything by saying he wishes he would have spoken up sooner; he realizes now it wasn't good to push his feelings down for so long and he knows now he can't do that in the future, but it's too late for us, so: D.

It really bothers me still, that way of thinking: our M is broken--too bad! must walk away!--but he's learned his lesson in how to communicate and now all his future Rs will benefit from it, even though ours won't. Like ours isn't worth the trouble.

I know his view is a simplistic one, and that he's not worked through his issues even if he thinks he has, and that they will continue to follow him until he does. But it really irks me to think I married someone who would give up when things got difficult. Now, if I hadn't read books on marriage since BD, I might also think that if a M required work, there must be something wrong. I understand, more than ever, how love is a choice, not that fuzzy feeling.

I know I should be reminding myself he's probably in MLC, he has to run, but this is still where my head is at this week, disappointed in the choices he made and continues to make. On the subject of detachment and compassionate indifference, I'm feeling a little empty, where before I felt love for him. A slight discomfort and sadness in feeling that love go... to wherever it goes for safekeeping. I've come far in accepting what I can't change over the past year, really more over the past six months. Still have further to go.

Hawks are circling overhead as I write, the first dahlia is getting ready to bloom. I am alive and baking: recently, a pie that could've been better but was improved by ice cream; monster cookies (fit for H? smile ); and soon, as always, more bread.

Thank you for being here, all of you.


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Happy one year post BD!

Look how far you've come. I think that should be celebrated. Your patience....serenity...compassion...and acceptance.

Enjoy getting back to work! hopefully that will cut away some of the mental weariness you're feeling about M. hugs.


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Thanks, wooba! Funny, I didn't think I'd feel any differently this week, but the last couple of days, things changed. I haven't been sleeping well, and I've felt more and more sad. You say, Look how far you've come, and I did feel I had come far when I wrote the last post. Now I feel like, wow, it's been a whole year, and I'm still here, as in, still stuck in this weird place with H? I remember maybe in my first thread going through a similar thing, where I suddenly felt I'd made little progress, and DnJ reminded me, yes, it may feel that way, but that doesn't mean it's true. I've noticed I still have some resentment toward H for shifting so drastically what was a pretty stable, fulfilling life of part-time teaching and volunteering to one where I'm stressed I won't be able to afford essentials like health insurance or vet bills or rent. I've noticed I still have some anger... some of these feelings have surfaced in the last few days. (May, if you're reading, I'm still thinking about your post, and was going to reply to it before this wave came!)

I had a session with my IC for the first time since I talked to her after H's April rant. I've been pretty calm and collected in sessions for a while, but I broke down today. She asked, a year ago, after BD, where did I think I would be in a year? I said I didn't think I had clear expectations for myself, but I thought that no matter what was happening with H, I would have a better job and would be able to support myself. That hasn't happened yet. I'm still determined to trust possibilities are out there, but all these articles about the long-term unemployment outlook are getting to me a little.

I know my past self would have thought it was hopeful that H hadn't filed yet, but I don't feel that way now. My past self would never have imagined in a year we'd still be living together and not divorced. He was so adamant he wanted D and couldn't wait, had to make himself happy. But OwnIt, in her first post to me, said so many are all talk and no action. I remember thinking, not my H. How wrong I was!

Like most of these MLCers, it seems, H just seems to drift further and further, and put more and more blame on me, and I'm feeling the weight of it even as I try not to accept it.

My IC ended our session by saying H gets his self-esteem from taking care of others (as long as they don't demand too much from him), and he's able to do this for his new friends, be the nice guy for them while he dehumanizes me at home--either takes his anger out on me or offers me some short convo or friendly gesture, depending on his mood. He doesn't consider my feelings at all, he's compartmentalizing and can't be expected to act rationally, probably depressed, self-medicating, we can only guess. (She's pretty much summing up the board here!)

And the thing that hurt me is something that I guess I already knew, but hearing it from her underlined it again: He doesn't know how to interact with me unless he's taking care of me, and he hasn't been caring for me for a long time. He probably thinks he's taking care of me now by being the nice guy who is "letting" me continue to live here, and can tell himself and his friends he hasn't filed because I don't have a job yet, etc., all convenient reasons he can offer up (it's not him; it's me) to help ensure that he doesn't see himself as "the bad guy," which he's always been touchy about. IC said she doubts anything will change anytime soon, continue focusing on self-care...

I can't control his narratives, but I'm having trouble letting that one go. Why? The entitlement of it gets to me--the assumption that he of course stays, that he somehow controls whether I stay or go--especially because this seems so unlike the H I knew. The way it positions me as less than. The way it says that he's not supporting me because of our long M and longer friendship, because it's the right thing to do, but because he somehow has to be the bigger person, even though I don't deserve it, and tolerate my company, as if I am over here whining and throwing away his money on who knows what. It's a reminder of how far he'll go to justify his actions, shift responsibility, and avoid looking at himself. It's a reminder of how he's changed from the person I knew. I still want to hope that is not a permanent state. Maybe I should be thinking about how he needs that narrative right now, perhaps, because he's also having trouble dealing with his own shame and doubt and he just can't handle it. Is that the compassionate way?

For the first time in a long time, I keep having that sick-to-my-stomach, sad, sort of numb sensation. I totally remember this feeling from the weeks and months just after BD. Grocery shopping and being on the verge of crying, not being able to hold everything together. I'm feeling that again. Maybe it's a little like PTSD, my body remembering, echoes of last summer. It's the year catching up with me, my body reminding me that it's exhausting to live like this. I am very tired, which is in part why this post is long and rambling. But the more worthwhile path--all this introspection and striving to be empathetic and kind, even if it is not recognized as empathy and kindness by H--it's bound to be difficult, right?

A year into this, I think I need to go back to basics: don't think too far ahead. One day at a time.


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Good Morning cardinal

It’s good you recognize your feelings in all this. And how they can and do change rather quickly. Keep your focus and reason, and look to your convictions, your beliefs. By the way, you are influencing, altering, and strengthening those beliefs right now. Think and act how and what you want to believe.

Sounds like you’ve let H’s words get inside your head a bit much. We all do it. It’s necessary to understand to a certain amount so one can let go and move forward.

You are correct, you cannot control his narrative. However, does he spell out his entitlement, the whole he is choosing if you stay or go? Or are you filling in the blanks a bit? Either way - stop! Find that mental assertiveness.

Compassion for H and others grows from compassion for yourself. Cut yourself some slack and be kind; she’s had a tough ride and come a long way.

I would put your path around the depression stage currently. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. Of course various facets are at various places, however the feelings of depression do spring up “suddenly”. It’s a good and healthy and needed experience. It’s a bit dark and sad, well it is depression. This is where you come to emotional terms with your loss and find acceptance. Stick to your path and values. Keep compassion and indifferent. Choose better not bitter.

One year anniversary of BD is bound to stir up some emotions and cause one to look at where they are. It’s ok and perfectly normal.

You are doing fine. Still living with H, no divorce, and a year into it. Be the roommate. Focus on you. H will not respond to normal other relationship solutions, MLC is a different animal. It’s counterintuitive; you are doing the right things.

One day at a time. Be cardinal. Let go. Acceptance is coming. Be patient.

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Cardinal: anniversaries are powerful, and it's understandable that they stir things up. For me the 1 year BD anniversary was liberating, I felt like I had survived that whole long, agonising year. I've had ups and downs and moments of detachment and acceptance since then, but also periods of pain, anger and depression. This week I'm feeling a bit under the weather and that always makes me a little self pitying. It would be nice to have someone to care that I feel poorly. But all I can do is look at those feelings of self pity, accept that they are entirely justified and that sadly my H is unavailable for anything other than himself.

This too shall pass. I try to look ahead a couple of years into the future, where I will either be D and happy or I will be with someone else and happy. In the meantime it's up to me to be happy by myself, nobody else is responsible for that. By the time the 2nd anniversary of BD comes around in September I expect to be well on the road to D. Some days I actively welcome that, and that certainly wasn't the case on the 1 year anniversary. Doesn't mean I don't still have moments of longing to still be married though, and for my demon H to come to his senses, sort his crap out and be the H that I deserve. That just seems a whole lot less achievable than it once did. Look forward to the peaks because the troughs don't last forever, 20ish months past BD and there is definitely more stability than in the early days.

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Hi, Cardinal -- You are mixing up two things. One is the scandalized feeling we have because of the betrayal. That PTSD is real and the right response. Your vows have been broken, your heart has been broken. When you feel that pain, comfort yourself. You would be like him if it didn't hurt. You will learn how to weather its ebb and flow. It continues to hammer you here and there, like a virus that is dormant for a little while. That's the cross you have to carry but you will be able to do it.

The other side is the business side of things. You HAVE to cut the emotion out of that.

Go to the default in your state. Is it a 50-50 split of property and debts? A divorce with trial allows you to argue that you should get more.

If you don't want to get more (and I would not recommend it), go to the 50-50. If you don't want to file for divorce (I didn't), then you can do a legal separation or post-nup. Divide everything. He gets the house? Fine, if you don't want it or can't buy him out. But he has to give you your half.

Any debts pre-filing? Fine, you have to split that and he can take it off your share of the equity.

Likewise any other assets, retirement accounts, etc. Even steven. Make a simple list, figure out what is half. Tell him you do not want to divorce and you do want to restore the marriage. But If he is set on a separation and does not want to work on the marriage now, you need to have some peace and stability, so it's time to divide things via legal separation or post nup so that you can live your own life until he either comes back or doesn't.

You can use your share of equity to get a darling little studio or tiny house and FIND SOME PEACE. He can come back to you when he is ready. You can keep standing from over there.

Or you can be like me and do what I did, mixing the two. When I finally stood up for myself, seven years had passed, my kids had witnessed all those years of abuse, I had not seen friends/family in my own home, I was hiding in my room and the PTSD was about fifty million times worse than what you feel now. I am battling it still many hours per day as the divorce is STILL DRAGGING OUT and now he is using broker and lawyer to do his dirty work. I was royally scr%%wed financially and have been battling for two years just to get a normal half rather than what I really deserve for all my work and all the payments I made on mortgage and debt all this time!

Keep your emotions, just put them in that room. The finance room is your key to freedom and peace, even if you don't get what you "deserve." You just need something to get started. You will make it on your own until he comes back or even if he doesn't or even if he does and you don't want him to anymore.


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Originally Posted by DnJ
You are correct, you cannot control his narrative. However, does he spell out his entitlement, the whole he is choosing if you stay or go? Or are you filling in the blanks a bit? Either way - stop! Find that mental assertiveness.


I suppose he knows he can’t kick me out anymore than I could kick him out, but it seems he has told people in the past he is waiting for me to leave. Our mutual friend says no one believes this anymore because he talks about the D he wants and then does nothing for a year. But his attitude during his birthday spewing was this is his house, and I’m just living in it. I was able to see our mutual friend last night, first time since lockdown, and since H doesn’t talk about anything with her she was eager to hear how I’d been holding up. I had told her about his yelling when it happened. She said at one point since BD when she questioned why H didn’t leave since he wanted a D and wanted a new life, he said I could go. She asked where I would go, and he said that I could go live with my parents (states away.)

Now, DnJ, I understand you are saying I shouldn’t dwell on things H says. The statements under this theme in particular are like undertows—they pull me out to sea and I get stuck there. For the moment, I am anguished because I can’t understand how H has become so uncaring toward me since BD and so cold—maybe it’s more accurate to say I don’t understand how all of that just seems to increase as time goes on, as if I am actively fighting him (maybe in his view I am by not running away or playing into his apparent fantasy of a D in which he does nothing and owes nothing?). Suddenly it’s right to him that I should have to give up my life here and move in with my parents because he wants a D? It makes me feel sick to think H is feeling this way about me.

I am having trouble getting over my disbelief that he would say and believe things like this, and that he would feel so strongly that I need to go, and not him, in the first place. The friend says men often get mean once they decide they want a D, and this is H showing who he really is, not the kind man I’ve known for 16+ years. Granted, she has gone through two divorces in which the men were not great. On your thread, there’s been some discussion of seeds planted in a person. I can look back and see poor coping skills in H and unexamined anger, but I don’t see him being a “bad” person or a narcissist or the kind of person who would treat others he once loved like this... I still don’t believe at his core this is who he is. So how do I make sense of it enough to let it go? This is something I am clearly not at peace with and I have to work on it, because it puts me back in the place where my thoughts are filled with H.

Originally Posted by DnJ
You are doing fine. Still living with H, no divorce, and a year into it. Be the roommate. Focus on you. H will not respond to normal other relationship solutions, MLC is a different animal. It’s counterintuitive; you are doing the right things.

I sure hope you are right, because I have been questioning whether I am still doing the right things. It is definitely counterintuitive. I so hope acceptance is around the corner.

Dilly, thank you for your empathy here and for sharing your own experience. I have been visiting your thread even though I don’t comment. It seems like you are in a good place in knowing what you want. You have made me think rather than focusing on whether I could be in the same place in another year, I need to focus less on a specific timeline and more on where I want to be, period. I need to spend more time envisioning my future self at peace, happy, doing the things I love to do, etc.

Gerda, thank you for your reminder to keep separating the business side. I do keep in mind that no matter what H thinks he is entitled to, the law says it is only half. Once I find a job that allows me to be more financially independent, I’m not sure what my next move would be, but a more official separation to protect myself financially would probably be in the cards. For now, I am better off keeping things together. We have no crazy list of assets and don’t even own this house—it’s a rental, and others have suggested it makes sense to think I would stay and H would go, as the housing crisis is real here, and our current place is more affordable than anything out there currently. It is one of the things I am sure of, along with not wanting to file myself, that I want to be here taking care of our chickens as I have done for the past several years. I would be able to get a roommate to share the cost of rent, making it even more affordable. A studio now would cost almost as much as this whole house.

But you are right that the finance room seems to be the key to freedom and peace. I think it’s just going to continue to be a bumpy road to get there for the next bit. I love the reminder that I can keep standing from over there if I want, from anywhere. ((Gerda)) Thank you for continuing to share the insights you’ve gained from your difficult road with me.


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Hi Cardinal,

I feel so much for you right now. I know what you mean-- trying to understand who is this person, how to reconcile their behaviors and attitudes with the person you knew so well that you decided to spend the rest of your life with him. I think this is something we all are dealing with in one way or another. FWIW, I think this is something he'll have to deal with too, if he ever gets there. And imagine how much harder it must be to reconcile your OWN actions with the person you thought you were... I think it might be so difficult that many of them simply never do, they just continue to avoid.

Originally Posted by Cardinal
I am having trouble getting over my disbelief that he would say and believe things like this, and that he would feel so strongly that I need to go, and not him, in the first place. The friend says men often get mean once they decide they want a D, and this is H showing who he really is, not the kind man I’ve known for 16+ years. Granted, she has gone through two divorces in which the men were not great. On your thread, there’s been some discussion of seeds planted in a person. I can look back and see poor coping skills in H and unexamined anger, but I don’t see him being a “bad” person or a narcissist or the kind of person who would treat others he once loved like this... I still don’t believe at his core this is who he is. So how do I make sense of it enough to let it go? This is something I am clearly not at peace with and I have to work on it, because it puts me back in the place where my thoughts are filled with H.

Here's what I am thinking right now... and I know it is beyond difficult... but maybe it isn't for you to make sense of before you let it go. Maybe you just need to let it go. There are things in this world that just don't make sense. I don't know that it is helpful for you connect your ability to let it/him/yourself go to understanding why. You may never get that. Can you see a path towards just freeing yourself from this place where you are, whether or not you can reconcile his actions to who he is at his core?

On the assets and 50/50 split... Maybe as an exercise, challenge yourself on this one to really explore this. What would it look like if you were more separated financially? Whose name is on the lease? Could you work on a budget and financials to figure out how much money you'd need to make to afford your current place on your own, and/or with a roommate? I wonder if you can get to a place where you could ask him to leave, rather than vice versa. If you have enough savings, you could potentially dip into your half for some period of time while you got yourself on your feet. And/or, filing for D or legal S could provide for some spousal support.

No matter who your H was, or is at his core, or may be again in the future... he is not that person right now. He is not behaving like someone you want to be married to or living with. Right? It seems from an outside perspective like his presence is not helping you to heal. He takes up a lot of space both physically and mentally for you.

It is OK to be angry and it is OK to be sad, but it feels like you have to suppress those feelings to some extent so that you don't show them to him. And getting battered by his narrative of being the bigger person and "letting" you live there must be both so infuriating and devastating.... if you let it. Rather than trying to understand it, can you look at the situation as you would if it were a friend in your place? What would you be counseling them to do?


(((CARDINAL)))


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Hi, may!

Originally Posted by may22
FWIW, I think this is something he'll have to deal with too, if he ever gets there. And imagine how much harder it must be to reconcile your OWN actions with the person you thought you were...

True, true. I think this has got to be partly why he's put so many blinders up, even to the thing he wanted.

Originally Posted by may22
Maybe you just need to let it go. There are things in this world that just don't make sense. I don't know that it is helpful for you connect your ability to let it/him/yourself go to understanding why. You may never get that. Can you see a path towards just freeing yourself from this place where you are, whether or not you can reconcile his actions to who he is at his core?

This is so hard to hear, but I guess I know it on some level, because as I try to figure x or y out, I keep saying that it's impossible to make sense of. I won't be able to. But it still freaks me out to no end to think the person I was closest to in my life will be forever unrecognizable in this way. We can't even have the "normal" divorce he seemed to be wanting at the very beginning. Can I see a path towards letting go whether or not I can reconcile his actions to who he is/was, whatever? Can't see it now, but would like to! Maybe I am on that path and am just taking another short detour. Maybe it's a series of loops until I straighten out again and am okay with not knowing and not having any closure.
Originally Posted by may22
On the assets and 50/50 split... Maybe as an exercise, challenge yourself on this one to really explore this. What would it look like if you were more separated financially? Whose name is on the lease? Could you work on a budget and financials to figure out how much money you'd need to make to afford your current place on your own, and/or with a roommate? I wonder if you can get to a place where you could ask him to leave, rather than vice versa.

We are both on the lease, and I've tried to get an idea of budgets and scenarios through the months, and it all depends on the spousal support. On the generous end, with my current job, I think it could work, but it wouldn't be easy, and I couldn't afford health insurance. With a roommate, it would be less stressful financially (but g*d I am dying to live alone in this place for a while after all this!). I did offer that he was also free to go if he didn't like it here, after he said that to me during spew-time. He didn't respond. If I straight up asked him to leave, well, first, he'd blow up, but he also just wouldn't do it, as it's become more and more clear he has no intentions to. It would do nothing but make living with him more miserable. Financial separation would mean still living with him too and dividing up bills and rent, but if I do start making more money, I'd want to think about that for sure. The only way I see movement on the living together end right now is if one of us files, and even then that would probably drag on. Am I missing something?


Originally Posted by may22
And getting battered by his narrative of being the bigger person and "letting" you live there must be both so infuriating and devastating.... if you let it. Rather than trying to understand it, can you look at the situation as you would if it were a friend in your place? What would you be counseling them to do?


I think, for the most part, I haven't gotten pretty good at not letting it get to me. But this year anniversary alongside the pandemic has everything bubbling up again. I am hoping this spike is temporary and that my feelings will settle again and I'll find my center and calm and will stop giving a sh*t about his narratives.

What would I counsel a friend to do? I feel like I come back to the whole focus on you, not him thing. Don't waste your energy on him. Right now, he is not a person you want to be married to or living with--like you said. So more of what I've been trying to do all along? I guess I'm just feeling exhausted by him at this point, and it's wearing down my mental reserves. Thanks for the hugs, may. I need them.


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If I straight up asked him to leave, well, first, he'd blow up, but he also just wouldn't do it, as it's become more and more clear he has no intentions to. It would do nothing but make living with him more miserable.


I’m sure that would be really tough for you. After all the drama and difficulty of it all, you’d hardly feel like poking the bear!

But is living through fear a good long term outcome? You can’t continue to make decisions through how he might react. I’d imagine you’ve done this for a long time in the relationship, and it’s probably part of the reason you’ve got to here. Remember doing the 180? Maybe this is an opportunity to do the exact opposite of what you’ve always done in the past. Remember that a lot of the steps required in divorce busting actually feel completely opposite to your gut instincts and history.

How he responds - is his issue, not yours.

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Hi, Kind. Thanks for your words here! It’s funny—in the past in some ways I was more confrontational. I would have wanted to talk about things. I wouldn’t have been quiet. I do need to think about whether the only reason I am not doing something is because I’m worried about how he’ll react. I’m feeling more emotional and on edge right now, not so much because H has done anything this week, but because of the BD anniversary and some current work/pandemic stress, and I don’t want to react out of fear or anger either. If I was ready to ask him to leave, I imagine I would want to feel absolutely calm and resolute. I’m not there yet. And, yeah, ideally I want to have a better job so that I can also feel independent and I am more prepared for the financial ramifications too. Those two things are for me.

When I can detach more from the situation, there is also something appealing to me about not affecting his path, about letting him have all responsibility for any action or inaction.

I’m feeling more and more like I’m riding a wave here, kind of like when we entered stay-at-home and I had to adjust to having H at home. Sit still and the answers will come—maybe that’s what I need.


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Also, I think it’s less his reaction and more that I know I have no legal way to get him to leave, so I’m not sure what good it would do to ask him when I know he won’t do it. I felt I made my feelings somewhat clearer when I said, “You are free to go if you don’t like it here.”

I am also thinking about what may said a few posts back about not making myself small in the house. I think I need to focus on that too—making sure I am taking up space and not shrinking because I am worrying about some reaction. I can continue to show that I am confident I deserve to be here as much as he does.

Last edited by cardinal; 06/14/20 02:42 AM.

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Hello cardinal

Originally Posted by cardinal
I am anguished because I can’t understand how H has become so uncaring toward me since BD and so cold

He is in MLC. He is driven by his emotions which are cranked to 11. He is cold towards you because he can’t handle his own emotions, never mind anyone else’s.

Originally Posted by cardinal
maybe it’s more accurate to say I don’t understand how all of that just seems to increase as time goes on, as if I am actively fighting him (maybe in his view I am by not running away or playing into his apparent fantasy of a D in which he does nothing and owes nothing?).

MLCers will expend incredible resources and energies into maintaining their fantasy. They absolutely have to. The alternative is unimaginable to them - for the moment.

Of course, life, you, fate gets in the way of their illusions with bills, facts, reality, etc... For the most part, MLCers run from these pressures. And at other times they push back, seeking confrontation to be used as justifying their irrational reasoning for all this mess and destruction. In essence, trying to blame the LBS.

Leave him to his mess. Do not engage. He knows you, and know what buttons to push. He is looking for a fight. Don’t take the bait. Focus on you. Be a roommate.

Remember, his path is irrational and emotional. It will not make rational and logical sense. It can, however, be understood when viewed more from an irrational perspective and empathic lens. The compassionate indifference you are after.

A caution. Do not get too caught up in attempting to solve him. That is what is driving him crazy; he can’t figure himself out either, why he feels what he does. And by the way, he doesn’t even know what he feels. Getting too far into his mind, too fast, will drive you bonkers.

Originally Posted by cardinal
when she questioned why H didn’t leave since he wanted a D and wanted a new life, he said I could go. She asked where I would go, and he said that I could go live with my parents (states away.)

Originally Posted by cardinal
Suddenly it’s right to him that I should have to give up my life here and move in with my parents because he wants a D? It makes me feel sick to think H is feeling this way about me.

It’s interesting the little tidbits MLCers drop. The clues they spew. And sometimes the outright; but they think there are so clever, like a child thinking they are hiding when covering their eyes; blurting out of something major.

MLCers project their pain and fears upon us and others. They cannot handle it, so they project towards someone else.

H’s suggestion that you move in with your parents is actually about him. Remember this entire ride is about him, and not really about you. H is looking at, mulling over, reliving a time - about moving in or living with his parents. Something from his past is probably stirred up towards the surface. He of course cannot handle it, so he makes it about you.

As difficult as the spewing is, and his projections, this is progress for him. MLC is a twisted and slow journey. There are very few external signs with most everything happening within them.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I am having trouble getting over my disbelief that he would say and believe things like this, and that he would feel so strongly that I need to go, and not him, in the first place.

Hopefully, you can see, understand, and accept my explanation a bit more. It takes time to believe. Disbelief is powerful. By the way, don’t focus too much on what he feels. It changes all the time.

Remember - believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. This is all just words. It’s a year and H is still there.

Originally Posted by cardinal
The friend says men often get mean once they decide they want a D...

LOL.

In my experience the women gets mean. Haha.

Anyone who gets to the point where D is now their preference, for whatever reasons, is not going to be really friendly anymore.

Originally Posted by cardinal
On your thread, there’s been some discussion of seeds planted in a person. I can look back and see poor coping skills in H and unexamined anger, but I don’t see him being a “bad” person or a narcissist or the kind of person who would treat others he once loved like this... I still don’t believe at his core this is who he is. So how do I make sense of it enough to let it go? This is something I am clearly not at peace with and I have to work on it, because it puts me back in the place where my thoughts are filled with H.

How to make sense enough to let go? Compassion, empathy, indifference.

A good helping of faith doesn’t hurt either.

You don’t see H as a bad person. Looking back you can see his poor coping skills and hidden anger. Not seeing any seeds is not a problem. These seeds of MLC were planted long before you came into the picture, and they were buried deep.

It’s ok to remember the man H was and may still be deep inside. I do believe these crisis people are very lost souls. And unfortunately some never find their way back.

Do not rewrite your history. In time, perhaps you will see or feel things a bit differently. Ensure you remain accurate.

Have faith. Heal yourself. The counterintuitive advice is first and foremost for you, and gives you the best chance at restoring you marriage.

Have faith in the possibilities. Hope lives in possibilities.

Have faith in letting go and letting H walk his path. It is really the kindest and most loving thing you can do. Believe that.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I sure hope you are right, because I have been questioning whether I am still doing the right things. It is definitely counterintuitive. I so hope acceptance is around the corner.

I am proud of you cardinal. It is no easy path you walk. Questioning is wise. Follow your beliefs. And have faith. Let go and heal yourself. Stay your course, you are doing fine.

Originally Posted by cardinal
The only way I see movement on the living together end right now is if one of us files, and even then that would probably drag on. Am I missing something?

The business side of MLC does need to be addressed. One needs to ensure their financial protection and security. You sound like you are comfortable with your current finances.

We all came here looking to bust our pending divorce. I would not advocate filing unless you are being abused or need financial security and/or protection. Since I’ve never hear any concerns with either, let H do the heavy lifting. And we all know how quickly he is moving towards that.

Time is your friend and a gift. Invest it wisely. Let time work it magic upon you and H.

Focus on you. Be cordial and kind. Be a roommate. Let the MLC burn out of H. Let H grow up. You keep living and moving forward.

Imagine years from now, whatever outcome may be, you don’t want regrets. If you file, you take over the process. It becomes yours. If you ask him to leave. It’s manipulation. As I said, only for abuse or protection or such, otherwise you may regret your choice. Keep your focus on you, and dig deep for patience.

You want him to act because of his pressures not yours. Hopefully he realizes that you haven’t been doing anything, not bothering him lately (lol the MLCer’s point of view is so twisted), and yet he is still unhappy. So, therefore, his unhappiness cannot be your fault. Voila! MLCer maybe starts to look inward.

That is the LBS’s part of MLC. Being patient and a safe place to land. Our influence also extends to boundaries when they test us and disrespect us. Keep calm and cordial. MLC is not about you, ensure not to make it about you.

Finding and living compassionate indifference. You are doing fine.

D


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Dear DnJ, I feel like you just pushed a big reset button for me and helped me shift my perspective again, which I so needed. Thank you so much. Why is it so easy for me to keep forgetting this is not about me? Or to not believe it? H can be very convincing, I suppose.


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If finances are going to be so tight in divorce - should you be considering moving home to the folks, at least temporarily? Not right now, but would you be able to find a job at similar pay where they live? If so, you could be on much more stable financial footing . Second option - how can you get a raise at work or move into a better paying job, preferably one with health insurance?

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Hi, kml. Getting a roommate here to help with rent would be way more practical than my abandoning the life I’ve made here in the last thirteen years, though I do wish my parents lived in the same state or even side of the country. My current job happened before BD and was just meant to be a fun PT thing for extra money alongside PT teaching. I’ve been trying to transition into a career position somewhere and can market myself for many different fields, but it hasn’t happened yet. Still sending out applications, and though listings have slowed since the pandemic, I think they’re starting to pick up a bit again. I think persistence (and faith) will be helpful for me here!

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I've been reading a lot here, and trying to sort my thoughts and feelings. I'm trying to untangle them still, but I thought I would post anyway to check in, and maybe someone else has greater clarity than I do! Probably that is true.

Recently H started a convo with me, longer than we have had in a while. He asked me about work (so, so rare that he asks me anything about my life), I replied briefly, and then he spent some time telling me about the current situation at his bartending gig. I listened, empathized with some of his work issues, and asked a few follow-up questions as he talked. We talked a little about the craziness of the larger pandemic situation, and then he mentioned his mom. Another thing he rarely does now--talk about his family (the last time was in April, when he said his dad hadn't sent him a bday card). She's going somewhere with a friend that he doesn't think is safe, pandemic-wise. Reading between the lines, I'm wondering if he's a little worried about her. Even though he doesn't ever worry. He tells everyone: he's incapable of worry, of course.

I tried to be a roommate who happened to be there to listen, and then I went on with whatever I had been doing. At one time exchanges like this would have had me thinking maybe, maybe he was leaning in. That's not the case anymore, though it did, I noticed, lift my mood. Like, oh, look, a somewhat normal conversation is still possible. It also reminded me that I still have hope that at some unknown future point we will be able to talk like we used to, that I'll be able to talk with the H I knew. I was a little unsettled to be reminded of that hope.

Another day—on a TV show, two exes sit down for dinner: They broke up a few years ago, but run into each other occasionally, have the same circle of friends. This is the first time they've been alone together for an extended period of time. He asked her to dinner. They end up talking honestly about what was going on when the relationship fell apart. They've both grown, both are more self-aware. She says she was unhappy at time. He says he was depressed, doesn't know why he couldn't tell her, was building a wall.

I guessed this scene was coming, but it broke me. Such vulnerability, such growth in both of them. I thought: I will never stop waiting for this kind of conversation to happen between me and H. I could see clearly, in that moment, that even if we'd been apart for years, even if I had moved on to a life I'd never imagined for myself with someone else, somewhere in the back of my mind I would still be waiting for that exchange. For a reckoning at least, if not a reunion. Ugh. Ugh because that possibility would of course depend on H doing the work and examining/understanding his share of the responsibility in our M. Ugh because I feel like there will always be some sliver of me, even if buried, that is wanting to see what it would have been like to try with H and not simply be BD, will always be thinking this can't be how things end, he can't be a stranger forever.

So there's that. I've been thinking about boundaries and manipulation, am feeling some anger toward may's H, anguish for may having to do such a quick u-turn. (Though, may, you are a rockstar, and I just admire how you are able to sort out your own thoughts and feelings, and how you are prioritizing that.) I've been thinking about how I was at least nominally there for H when he wanted to share a few things with me this time, and I'm feeling like he must totally take that for granted, that I'm his roommate, and I may not go out of my way to talk to him anymore, but I'll be there for brief, pleasant exchanges, and I'll be there to listen if he wants to talk, I'll always be in a good mood, I'll never tell him he's being selfish or unkind, I'll never criticize the way he's living his life.

Is this the safe-place-to-land thing, or the friendly neighbor thing, or is this just me trying to be compassionate but indifferent, uninvolved in his life but still here because I live here? What am I trying to unspool? There's some discomfort. Is it still some hurt that I am willing to go on being my kind self for him, but he isn't able to do that for me, or he is, but only selectively? Hmm. I'm trying to get at something here, but I don't quite know what it is yet.

Instead of writing myself to some new understanding, I've written myself past the time when I should be feeding my sourdough starter and making dinner.


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Hi cardinal

Originally Posted by cardinal
I'm trying to get at something here, but I don't quite know what it is yet.

Be patient, in time, answers will present themselves.

If you push too hard for answers, you push what you seek further away.

Watch for expectations. They do sneak in... unexpectedly.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I will never stop waiting for this kind of conversation to happen between me and H. I could see clearly, in that moment, that even if we'd been apart for years, even if I had moved on to a life I'd never imagined for myself with someone else, somewhere in the back of my mind I would still be waiting for that exchange. For a reckoning at least, if not a reunion. Ugh. Ugh because that possibility would of course depend on H doing the work and examining/understanding his share of the responsibility in our M. Ugh because I feel like there will always be some sliver of me, even if buried, that is wanting to see what it would have been like to try with H and not simply be BD, will always be thinking this can't be how things end, he can't be a stranger forever.

You do have to go through this process. Sorry.

You are expecting this future conversation. It is being currently unmet and you are feeling resentment.

Let go of the timeline. Let go of expecting. Focus on your life.

Hope sounds different. Acceptance sounds different.

Originally Posted by cardinal
is this just me trying to be compassionate but indifferent

Be compassionate and indifferent, not compassionate but indifferent. Be both. And “be” not try.

When indifferent you won’t speak from those feeling of longing and wondering - “ Ugh because I feel like there will always be some sliver of me, even if buried, that is wanting to see what it would have been like to try with H and not simply be BD”. Let go. Find acceptance. You’re being dragged around.

“will always be thinking this can't be how things end, he can't be a stranger forever” - can’t? The unintended consequences of using “can’t” - in attempting to bolster hope it erodes it. Hope live in the possibilities. If you believe this can’t be how things end, that keeps you stuck. Keeps you from moving forward. Keeps you from possibilities because you can’t won’t see any others. And when you stop seeing possibilities you stop seeing hope. Expectations take over, go unmet, and resentment eats away at you.

Putting away the thinking of what can’t happen allows you to focus on what can happen.

Compassionate indifference, acceptance, sounds different:

I hope to someday have this kind of conversation between me and H. I can imagine, in that moment, even if we'd been apart for years, even if I had moved on to a life with someone else, somewhere in the back of my mind I would still be open for that exchange. For that possibility to become reality would of course depend on H doing the work and examining/understanding his share of the responsibility in our M and it’s demise. Currently, there is some part of me that would like to explore reconciliation with H and not simply be BD. For now, things are how they are. I have hope that things can change; that H won’t be a stranger forever.

cardinal, it looks like you are letting go more and more. Letting go - it’s scary, it hurts, and it doesn’t feel quite right. Counterintuitive.

I’ve reframed you’re words a bit, not to detract from your feelings, for they are valid and true. I’ve reframed because feelings are temporary. I’ve reframed to hopefully show a bit of what an indifferent and caring and hopeful view can look like.

You are on a good path - don’t fret. It does take some time. Be patient.

D


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Originally Posted by cardinal

Is this the safe-place-to-land thing, or the friendly neighbor thing, or is this just me trying to be compassionate but indifferent, uninvolved in his life but still here because I live here? What am I trying to unspool? There's some discomfort. Is it still some hurt that I am willing to go on being my kind self for him, but he isn't able to do that for me, or he is, but only selectively? Hmm. I'm trying to get at something here, but I don't quite know what it is yet.


You cannot find the answers because your focal point is still external - him - rather than internal: YOU.

It's a really painful and scary thing to take the focus off of him, and put it squarely on you, but I've found that the path to healing lies in doing just that.

D has it right about expectations. They are a b!@tch. Remove any thoughts of getting anything in return. What you give out in compassion or kindness or courtesy is a gift you give yourself and those around you. It is absolutely none of your business what anyone, especially your H, does with those gifts. Would it be nice to receive it in return from the object of your compassion? Yes, but so much better to get compassion from yourself.

Put another way, loving kindness and compassion are not about indifference but about detachment, and detachment is the key to serenity.

The Buddhists know this, or there would not be a Metta practice.

Here's another clue: to excel at life, one must search for and meditate on loving kindness. the download will be there. I hope you understand what I'm saying. Keywords and google are your friend.

xoxoxo


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I see your reframing, D—I see how you’ve turned my expectations and my imagining them unmet into possibility. In my formulation, I thought I was removing a timeline, but there was instead the built-in assumption of the expectation not being met for a long time, or never being met. I was defeating hope instead of allowing space for it.

I partly blame the magic of good storytelling—character development, dialogue, etc—because I felt I was suddenly watching my dream happen to me and not me, real and unreal, on the screen. That feeling of longing was overwhelming. It rolled through my body, and in a split second I imagined reliving that same feeling in ten years, twenty, etc. I was both imagining possibility and at the same time spending energy foreclosing it.

I see how your edits instead make room for possibility, because who am I to say what could or could not happen?

I see this and understand it intellectually. I still feel, however, more—not so much resentment around this issue at the moment, I don’t think, but pain. Sadness. Fear too, that we won’t speak in this way again. It’s still there. Better to be open to the possibilities life may bring. Maybe this is the depression stage speaking! I do need to reframe my outlook.

I think there is some stirred-up resentment around the BD anniversary too, because what Scout wrote on May’s thread resonated with me:

Originally Posted by scout12
You don’t have to be ‘in love’ with someone to refrain from destroying their life. ‘I love you but I’m not in love with you’ has no place in discussions of infidelity. If for whatever reason they love you and still want to leave you, they would do so in a way that did not hurt you. With honesty, with integrity, with regret, with sadness, with respect. With a fair settlement and custody arrangement in acknowledgement and reparation for reneging on their sacred commitment.


I don’t know if H has been with anyone else, but even putting that aside, it does disappoint me that H can’t show integrity, regret, sadness, and respect. And he seems to think he is leaving in a way that doesn’t hurt me (?). Here I suppose I’m running into expectations again, thinking he would approach things rationally when he is not. And he doesn’t have the best coping tools, so he’s probably doing his best. Is continuously reminding myself of this one way to recognize and let go of my expectations? Sometimes I get stuck feeling like I’m making excuses for him and not giving enough weight to my own feelings.

Bttrfly—I understand what you’re saying! Thank you. smile I need to check your thread for any chicken updates. I’m missing my garden meditation time since work has started again and I need to make more time for it. Thank you too for the reminder of the true nature of compassion and kindness. Now I’m wondering: How have I taken this detour in my path toward detachment? I think my focus has shifted more toward H lately because 1) BD anniversary has me reflecting and some days reliving that time a little; 2) I have been trying to understand some of H’s past behaviors in our R and how they affected me, so that I know what I won’t accept in a new R with him or anyone, and so that I can put down some of the blame that is not mine to carry; 3) I’ve been trying to figure out what I’m feeling in regards to H’s behavior now and if it’s a signal that I need to create or enforce a boundary. It seems accurate to say if I focus again on just myself, this last point will dissolve.

I think all this is tied to my ongoing acceptance that no matter who he was in the past or could be in the future, he is not someone who is a partner to me right now.

Now, I’m going to go spend some time with plants before work. My happy place. Thank you both for your guidance!


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Originally Posted by cardinal


I think all this is tied to my ongoing acceptance that no matter who he was in the past or could be in the future, he is not someone who is a partner to me right now.

Now, I’m going to go spend some time with plants before work. My happy place. Thank you both for your guidance!

By George, I think she's got it!!! xoxoxo


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Hi Cardinal,

Was it Insecure you were watching? We watched that episode together too, right around the end of when things were going well. it was a crazy intense episode. And what happens afterwards.

Reading what you just wrote made me think of how H might have been interpreting that same scene, thinking of it in terms of AP. Wow. We still haven't watched the last episodes of this season, we ended it on that one and haven't watched TV together since. It is so interesting how a TV show can stir so many emotions in those of us watching, from so many different places, with so many different expectations or visions of possible futures still out there.

Sorting through our own thoughts and feelings is such a challenging enterprise, especially with so many different things in the way before you can even get to them. For me, fear-- both for myself and for my children, which get put into different buckets; loss; grief; expectations; stubbornness; impatience. Loss of control. I always like visiting your thread because it feels like an oasis of calm, to me. I don't know if you perceive it that way, but it is how it feels to me. I imagine you in your garden or baking, serene, kind, compassionate. Doing your thing. I wish that for myself so much.

I am feeling lost the last few days. Not strong or calm or empowered. Just kind of beaten down. I will go out and work on my vegetable garden and try to channel some Cardinal. We have a red cardinal that has started coming by. I'll look for him.

xoxo


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Bttrfly, if only I could sit in that knowledge and acceptance rather than seemingly keep circling back around to it! Maybe it is just the shape of my journey right now. I was thinking how strange it is today that I can still experience brief feelings of disbelief at how night and day different everything is now—what I thought my marriage was, what it is now.

May—yes, it was Insecure! It made me think about how H had been building walls in the last few years too—being on his phone all the time, staying up and playing video games, etc. I didn’t have the R knowledge or perspective to think of it in that way then.

Kind of funny also to think that the last show we watched together shortly after BD was the Veronica Mars reboot. We still have one episode left in the season (I think H just started cutting communication and staying out with his friends), but I’ve never gone back to it. Oh, we did finish Big Little Lies together after BD also, and I was sobbing during the scene when Adam Scott recommits to his M. H and I used to watch Insecure together too. Sometimes I wonder: does he ever experience any recognition like that? Does literally anything ever summon a good memory of our R for him? Does he ever dream of me like I do of him? I would think sleep would be one place he would lose his ability to shut everything out, to compartmentalize, but maybe not.

Anyway, I just finished Insecure and the finale has a couple more scenes that hit me in a similar, though slightly less immediate and powerful way. I was imagining what you would think of them... I wish we could watch together!

Originally Posted by may22
For me, fear-- both for myself and for my children, which get put into different buckets; loss; grief; expectations; stubbornness; impatience. Loss of control.

Yes to all of that. I have had a hard time lately sorting through my feelings. I think maybe some of the boot him to the curb! attitude has gotten to me, because I felt a small weight lifted when bttrfly posted—like I had been unknowingly feeling pressure to be less kind, and I feel a bit less anxious about that today. Being kind is not telling him it is okay, it is just for me. But I find it so hard to balance neutral and neighborly and kind sometimes. Have to watch that I am not tiptoeing around, make sure I’m okay with finishing the last of the ice cream (which I did last week). smile

I’m glad this feels like an oasis of calm! It does not feel like that to me much of the time. More like a sea of doubt. Yours feels like a source of strength and intelligence and fierceness to me, even if you are also trying to sort through your feelings right now. I do think you will come to more balance and find some waves of centered-ness again.

I love that you have a cardinal visitor! I didn’t think we had them much out here. I hope you found some peace in your garden, may. (((May)))


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Originally Posted by cardinal
Bttrfly, if only I could sit in that knowledge and acceptance rather than seemingly keep circling back around to it! Maybe it is just the shape of my journey right now. I was thinking how strange it is today that I can still experience brief feelings of disbelief at how night and day different everything is now—what I thought my marriage was, what it is now.



Yes. This is normal. It will not always be like this. Right now, just go with the flow. The way to heal is to experience all the feelings as they arise, let them wash over you and don't try to stuff any of them. They will pass. I promise.


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Originally Posted by cardinal
Which leads me to this question: What does compassion for one’s (MLC) spouse look like, on a day-to-day, concrete basis? I am curious what it looks like when you are living with this spouse and just in general. Here or on my thread, I would love to hear examples from others.

Although, I do not have a live-in spouse I will give my views on some general ideas and ideals.

When considering compassion, words like nice, kind, cordial, friendly, etc. spring to mind rather quickly. One of the nicest things you can do for someone you love is to let them go. The expression “If you love something set it free”, is quite true.

It takes a bit to let go. To find your way to let go.

As for examples I’ve found a few things worked rather well for me.

Firstly realize what you are working towards. A compassionate view and life sees your spouse clearly and objectively. Doesn’t judge. And works towards forgiveness and acceptance. Craft those ideals and beliefs.

Wait for a time before reacting emotionally. At first, the 24 or 48 hour “rule” is to allow for detachment and for us to calm down and converse more from our intellect than our emotional side. As time progresses we gain control over ourselves and our emotions. Keeping our conversations kind and cordial works directly to that compassionate view we seek.

Seeing the person beyond their behaviour. How they act reflects upon them. How we act reflects upon us. Treat the MLCer’s behaviour as need. Boundaries when needed, ignoring when needed, realizing they lash out and are emotionally driven. Treat the crisis person with compassion and respect. They are making some bad choices due to overwhelming internal pressures and pain. Respect their choice; you need not agree with it (obviously). That respecting of someone leads understanding of their choices and to compassion for them.

Ignore them. Be indifferent. Focus upon your life. If one cannot emotionally step back from the MLCer, from their spouse, they will get dragged along. Whatever loving feelings the LBS has will be destroyed, eaten by the acid of the MLCer’s projections and justifications. Indifference gives you the perspective and objectivity to see and understand clearly. And if you understand someone, compassion usually follows. We, LBS, aren’t made of stone after all.

Physical actions influence our thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. Behaving compassionately will affect you and influence you. Some concrete actions: close the cupboard door gently, be considerate when driving (let that goof that waited until the last minute with no signal into your lane. smile I may have to work on that one. Lol), be authentic, step back when emotionally hijacked, say sorry (when you should), smile, help others, realize you just might make someone’s day with the smallest of your actions or words, make someone’s day, be compassionate to yourself (it all starts within), reward good behaviour and ignore poor behaviour, don’t sweat the small stuff, invite your live-in spouse along even if you suspect they won’t come, be a kind roommate, be respectful, stand up for yourself, be consistent, let go the outcome and be kind because it is for you. Live it.

Recently my D18 graduated high school. I hosted the grad pictures in my yard; the individual families and the group. XW was here, in my yard. In her “old” yard, amongst all her memories. I cannot say “I was indifferent and felt nothing”. No, that’s not it. I felt compassion for the woman. I was not hurt, or vengeful, or angry. It was a happy day which XW happened to be a part of. Yes, I do still love the woman, the mother of my children.

Realizing the path these lost souls are walking. How can one not be compassionate? It’s just not to let compassion be too unrestrained I find is key to letting go. Like all things, it’s a balance.

D


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Thank you, D, for sharing more of your thoughts on compassion here! I love your list, and it does make me realize I am on the right track:
Originally Posted by DnJ
Some concrete actions: close the cupboard door gently, be considerate when driving (let that goof that waited until the last minute with no signal into your lane. smile I may have to work on that one. Lol), be authentic, step back when emotionally hijacked, say sorry (when you should), smile, help others, realize you just might make someone’s day with the smallest of your actions or words, make someone’s day, be compassionate to yourself (it all starts within), reward good behaviour and ignore poor behaviour, don’t sweat the small stuff, invite your live-in spouse along even if you suspect they won’t come, be a kind roommate, be respectful, stand up for yourself, be consistent, let go the outcome and be kind because it is for you. Live it.

I've been thinking about them in the last few days, and one of the things I've come to feel is that I'm a pretty compassionate and empathetic person. I would say it's one of my strengths. I think I am doing pretty well being compassionate toward H in demeanor and action and can probably trust that my first impulse most of the time is to be kind. One of my fears is that because of this I won't be able to recognize, in the moment, when I need to set a boundary or stay true to a boundary. For a while after BD I was definitely walking on eggshells. But I think I have to trust I am getting better at finding that balance (when to ignore behavior, when to set boundary, how to be kind and live with boundaries, not mutually exclusive) and allow that it takes practice.

In thought, though, I do sometimes judge H. Every so often, like this morning, I feel that old pang of disappointment, hurt, and anger that he disregarded our vows and was able to (might say had to, in a more compassionate view) just be done with our M. I had a bad dream last night, which is probably influencing me this morning--H had filed without telling me, and I was again met with seemingly cold, unfeeling H, who seemed numb to this great loss that had happened and was happening in our lives. It was reliving a little of BD aftermath, I think, when he didn't seem to be grieving anything, as if he'd decided to break up with a girlfriend after a month and not completely end a 16+ year relationship and M. Also, curiously, H's mom sent him a box of high school yearbooks and photo albums. I saw them stacked on the floor. It made me sad--maybe because thinking of teenage H before he knew me and how we don't share those memories with each other anymore, or maybe because it made me think about how he was when I first met him in college. So I'm in a funk. These pangs happen less frequently than they used to, but it would seem I'm still working through letting go and respecting his decision in that sense.


Originally Posted by DnJ
Firstly realize what you are working towards. A compassionate view and life sees your spouse clearly and objectively. Doesn’t judge. And works towards forgiveness and acceptance. Craft those ideals and beliefs


I do realize I am working toward forgiveness and acceptance and seeing my spouse clearly and objectively, but not there. In this case I hope if I continue acting consciously with compassion and kindness, my subconscious mind will continue to work on letting go and forgiveness. My actions will also influence my thoughts.

Ah, yes, you talk about that too:
Originally Posted by DnJ
Physical actions influence our thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. Behaving compassionately will affect you and influence you.


I suppose having compassion for myself would be acknowledging that I have further to go with forgiveness and letting go, and telling myself it's okay I'm not 100% there yet. I do think I'm going in the right direction.

And now it's time to mow, though my yard is little, so I won't have as much time to contemplate as you driving over your acres. smile I think of your hours of cumulative yard work in part helping pave the way for this:
Originally Posted by "DnJ
XW was here, in my yard. In her “old” yard, amongst all her memories. I cannot say “I was indifferent and felt nothing”. No, that’s not it. I felt compassion for the woman. I was not hurt, or vengeful, or angry. It was a happy day which XW happened to be a part of. Yes, I do still love the woman, the mother of my children.


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Originally Posted by cardinal

One of my fears is that because of this I won't be able to recognize, in the moment, when I need to set a boundary or stay true to a boundary. For a while after BD I was definitely walking on eggshells. But I think I have to trust I am getting better at finding that balance (when to ignore behavior, when to set boundary, how to be kind and live with boundaries, not mutually exclusive) and allow that it takes practice.

Yes, you will get better at it! You will learn to put yourself first.

Originally Posted by cardinal
In thought, though, I do sometimes judge H. Every so often, like this morning, I feel that old pang of disappointment, hurt, and anger that he disregarded our vows and was able to (might say had to, in a more compassionate view) just be done with our M.

We’re only human. It is almost impossible to see things without judgement. But I believe that being self aware of our actions and thoughts (as you are) will help us to self-correct. This is where compassion helps one to think from a more loving perspective. Although regarding “separating the behavior from the person” part - I’m not sure about that. I think a person is defined by his or her actions. A person is defined by the many choices he or she makes. When I think about my H, my compassion mainly stems from our past history and how I know he is incredibly flawed. But at the same time I still hold him accountable for his sh1tty choices. Sort of like I have compassion for a criminal who probably had a difficult childhood and the situations in life led up to his bad choices, but he’s still gotta got to jail for his crimes. (If only society can put H away and force him to repent lol)

So I guess for me I still judge. H did XYZ, and gosh they were wrong. Some anger will rise up from that. But also accepting that I have to let the anger and resentment go ultimately for my own well-being.

I think you are a champion at being compassionate. Lots of virtual hugs to you!


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And just now, another example: H on the phone counseling a younger friend on her relationship problems, just like he used to do with friend-who-is-no-longer-his-friend. For years he counseled this friend and complained about the drama to me, said how dumb dating was now, how glad he was to be M to me, to be an adult and not “a kid,” how happy he was, etc (yet I was supposed to realize he was unhappy?).He says now to new friend he doesn’t understand guys, guys are stupid—a refrain of his. I want to roll my eyes. How can he presume to give any advice? I know he doesn’t have much self-awareness right now... or sometimes historically. Also: Who would take R advice from a guy who said he wanted a D yet had done nothing for a whole year? See, I’m still judging, still attached enough to let this exasperate me, if only temporarily. Still wanting to say, H, an adult R takes work! ... not the most kind thing. I sound a little resentful tonight, don’t I? I suppose I have to understand H probably gets much self-esteem from counseling others like this, from separating himself from “guys,” even if to me now this is a little hypocritical.

Sometimes to let go I have to let this out. Thanks for reminding me I am human, wooba. smile

I guess on separating behavior from person, I think of disagreeing with behavior but at the same time being able to have compassion for the person. I think you are doing that. In disagreeing, maybe there is some judgment involved. But also, as you say, working on letting go of any anger or resentment that comes with it.


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Good Morning cardinal (and wooba)

It took time for me to separate the person from the behaviour.

Do not mixed up compassion and forgiveness with absolution. Separating isn’t ignoring their morally bad behaviour; it’s defining the person by more than their actions.

Of course actions matter. And I believe our actions matter most - to us!

We all have good and evil; light and dark; within us. For with a twist of fate, it could have been me in MLC. I was fortunate and had great parents and a great upbringing. We are all fortunate. Hard to fairly judge someone else without walking their same path.

This is not the same as societal rules and laws. Those are laid out with punishments that would be forthcoming for violations. The laws we are speaking of are carved in stone. Judging requires wisdom well beyond that of man. And punishments similarly handed out with such wisdom.

I get it, we do judge, prejudge, others based upon their actions and past. It’s difficult to look at the big picture and realize just how big it really is, never mind actually trying to understand it. We only see a tiny slice of a person’s life, pain, love, experience, and so on; and then define them.

Look beyond. Look passed all that’s been written upon their once clean slate. See them. See their slate. See them and see what has been written so far. Perhaps you can see, and hope for, the possibility of something better being written upon their future. Would that change how we see them? Should it?

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Hi cardinal,
I just wanted to pop by to let you know I'm here, I'm watching and thinking of you often. And then I read all of DnJ's lovely words and had myself a good cry. The compassion and patience, the control D is speaking of is everything here. It's been everything for me. And cardinal my dear, you have all of this in you. You've been exercising all of that. I know you don't always feel it, but lady, let me tell you, you are forever falling off that horse and getting right back up with grace, strength and empathy. Lots and lots of well wishes.
xoxoxoxo

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Hi from the beginning of a new week!

Originally Posted by DnJ
Look beyond. Look passed all that’s been written upon their once clean slate. See them. See their slate. See them and see what has been written so far. Perhaps you can see, and hope for, the possibility of something better being written upon their future. Would that change how we see them? Should it?

I do believe people are capable of change in a positive, healthy direction. Does that change how I see H? Should it? Maybe not as who he was vs. who he is/seems to be but in flux. I will have to think about this more.

H has been looking at those high school yearbooks his mom sent. Past selves. I wonder who he thought he was then, or when we were married after college,or who he thinks he is now. Just in a curious observer kind of way I wonder how would he describe himself, his core self. Not his changing interests, not his happy, never-worried exterior, but what’s at his center. All I know is that he was the perfect son in high school and well-liked by everyone, best friend to many girls.

This is tangentially related—it does make think of something H said at BD: he had changed, he said, but I hadn’t. This hurt and confused me at the time. I could see there were some changes I/we needed to make in our R. But me as a person? Is that what he meant? I’d felt pretty good about knowing myself, and his words made me question that. Was I supposed to be a completely different person than I’d been up until then? And can't partners grow and change independently over a long M? i.e. M doesn't mean you always have to be into the same interests as your partner, because you're both individual, whole people. A year later, I can see all the changes he’s made (friends, hobbies—he just bought a compound bow and I guess is into archery now?—hair, clothes, etc etc), and I wonder if I should have understood those words less as a critique of me and more as a projection of his desire to change himself. Or change something, anything. His words still echo from time to time, but I can say I still feel pretty happy with who I am fundamentally, you know? Not that my work is done, I can never learn anything more or grow—just that I feel more and more comfortable with myself, less of that anxious feeling that I must need to change for H in some way. Which is I guess something I don’t sense in H—a level of comfort with who he is.

I felt so joyful and content yesterday: I took the time to make a slightly more involved pizza dough from my sourdough starter and the extra work paid off. I enjoyed the best pizza I’ve ever made, then more of the dessert I’d baked over the weekend—key lime bars with the lightest, fluffiest swiss meringue. I picked flowers from the garden and delivered an arrangement to a friend’s porch. This is who I am, you know? Able to find absolute delight in each of these things. I have to admit, when I bit into the pizza, I thought, H is really going to be missing out. Not in a mean way or a sad way, but just, too bad for him! I do think we had a lot of really happy times together. We were also stuck in our own patterns and not working to understand them. I do think there is always the possibility for positive changes in the future, but I guess that's my optimism coming through again. Trying not to get it mixed up with expectations, always.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
And cardinal my dear, you have all of this in you. You've been exercising all of that. I know you don't always feel it, but lady, let me tell you, you are forever falling off that horse and getting right back up with grace, strength and empathy.


Thank you so much for saying this, Wayfarer. I think sometimes I focus too much on where I’d like to be (100% compassion, empathy, patience, detachment) and forget to focus on how far I’ve come.

I wish I could have a pizza party with all of you! I’m making more dough tonight.


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popping in to say Brava - yes, this is you, and you're pretty wonderful!

BTW, my neighbor and I have been working on the coop, laid the plywood floor, hardware mesh is secure all around the three sides and under the roof overhang, and the back is temporarily screwed into place. We're going to make that into French doors for easy cleanout.

AND today, all by myself, I laid the linoleum floor. Peel and stick but it's a pattern and I had to do cut outs and everything. I'm ridiculously pleased with it and proud of myself.


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I thought I would post here what I wrote on Bttrfly’s thread, because it did make me think about what is helping me right now and why.

Originally Posted by cardinal
Hi, bttrfly. I'm thinking of you and your son, and I hope your time spent in meditation and prayer has been helpful.

From what you posted in my thread, it sounds like the coop is coming along nicely. With the French doors and the patterned floor, it sounds like it's going to beautiful! Way to go on laying the linoleum. This made me smile:
Originally Posted by bttrfly
Their favorite music is big band. My friend J says they are "Swing Chickens" --- favorite song that they actually dance to is Bette MIdler's version of Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy.


I've had chickens on my mind the last few days because one of ours has had laying issues. I may post a bit about it. I have to say they are often a calming presence for me when I'm working in the garden, but over the years as my H
seemed less and less interested in their care (they were his idea originally), they have become a source of stress too, as they're getting older and having more health issues and have always had some trouble in the heatwaves here during the summers. It's a fact of life: animals get older, they get sick, and they die just like people do, but I am very fond of them, and sometimes it's hard to feel like I'm carrying all of this love and worry on my own. We hatched them several years ago, and I spent hours outside with them when they were chicks. It was a great experience.

Originally Posted by bttrfly
Really Card, what I'm working on these days is getting more grounded. I'm doing that by stepping away from social media (including here), and working the land. For me that means making flower essences of various plants on property, re-locating plants to different areas, making a labyrinth, and most importantly taking the perspective of being a Steward of the land I live on rather than an owner. It's a different mindset.

The creatures who live here are under my protection as much as the plants, trees, rocks and people. That brings me peace. That keeps me focused on the here and now, and gives me strength. I say this because I think, from what little I've read on your threads, that you will relate to this, and maybe find it helpful. As an herbalist, third generation at least, I have a different perspective than most, but this is what is currently working for me.


This is helpful to read. I know I feel the most peace when I am outside caring for plants or, yes, moving plants, putting new plants into the ground. It is incredibly grounding for me and is the closest I get to meditation, closer even then when I am actively trying to meditate right now! Ha. We have many feral cats in our neighborhood, and I spent some time TNRing several of them (trap/neuter/return) a couple of years ago. One in particular, a mother who had kittens in our yard, was especially hard to catch—it took me over a year, but she now spends most of her time in the yard with me, and I am so grateful I can provide this little protected place for her.

All of this is to say I don't think I realized how grounding all of this was/is for me until I read your words. I know it's one of the main reasons I would like to continue living in this house—I don't want to leave these creatures under someone else's care, or have them find that it's suddenly a place where they are no longer welcome.


So, yes, over the last few days one of our older chickens wasn't able to pass the shell of an egg that didn't fully form and could have died. Maybe this is TMI if you don't have chickens (!), but H was around and was able to pull the shell out while I held her, which is what needed to happen. Hopefully she'll make a full recovery. It was really a two person job, so I'm grateful H was able to help. He used to love hanging out with the chickens, but has been very hands off for a few years now, moreso, of course, in the last year, and so I am always the one to spot when one of them is "off" and diagnose and care for them, plus do the normal care of feeding and cleaning the coop, that kind of thing. When we first got chickens years and years ago, I was indifferent to the idea and H really wanted them. Now I've become pretty attached to them.

This experience has brought back last summer's memories of my having to euthanize our favorite chicken on my own (I mean, the vet did the euthanizing, not me, but you get the idea), because H couldn't make it. He was bowling with new friends when I called to tell him it would have to be done, and didn't pick up the phone at first. Then on the day of the vet visit, he couldn't make it for whatever reason. This was a month or so after BD, and he showed little emotion before or after her death, and I was distraught. He did help bury her, and that's when he broke down, just during that short time. I've seen so little emotion from him since BD, so it was cathartic for me, though I felt sad that he wasn't able to be there more for our chicken while she was still alive that week.

I think I just try to not think about this or ignore it most of the time, but it does still get to me that he can mute any emotions he might have. It feels like I am living with someone who is numb, while I feel all the feelings even when I'd rather not. I know this numbness also goes along with depression sometimes, and maybe part of it is compartmentalization and maybe part of it is depression. I can't know. I had waves of sadness again this week. I woke up one night and felt that, though it's not ideal living with him as a roommate, and there are things I look forward to doing on my own in the house, I don't really want my H to be gone for good. This current version of him, well, that's a little different, but even that...I just felt a lot of sadness about it, then was not okay with the fact that I still have all of this sadness and reluctance in me. Like most of the time when I don't feel it, I think--maybe it's gone! I'm not loving that it can just resurface. I realized I had this expectation that it would go away completely. When someone dies, though, that grief never fully leaves, does it? It just changes shape and maybe sharpness.

It may be too hot to bake this weekend. Then again, that probably won't stop me.


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reposting from my thread: i'm glad that you've found what i've written to be helpful to you. Generally, I think we are all doing better than we think - or feel - we are at any given moment. I didn't live with my ex for more than three weeks after BD, and he was away for most of that, but the years leading up to it, particularly the last two were really, really hard years, where I knew something was going terribly wrong and had no way of stopping the runaway train.

Keep doing whatever you can that will bring you peace.

xoxoxo


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Originally Posted by cardinal
I think I just try to not think about this or ignore it most of the time, but it does still get to me that he can mute any emotions he might have. It feels like I am living with someone who is numb, while I feel all the feelings even when I'd rather not.

Hi Cardinal,

Thinking of you... I just had a whole convo with my mom wondering why they don't have chickens as they have the space and the time and otherwise it is totally up their alley. She said my dad really wants them but she doesn't think she'll be able to handle them dying. Which I kind of get.

Is there any way for you to somehow wall yourself off emotionally from caring about what he does or doesn't feel? I'm imagining this magical force field of serenity that surrounds you wherever you go, and his numbness just gets pushed aside and away from your bubble. Not that I (obviously) know how to do this... but it bothers me that you have that little energy/emotional suck from him, almost like a mini black hole.

Any baking recently? Our red-headed cardinals had a second set of babies right after the last set, which is unusual and fun. The babies are LOUD though. smile

xx M


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Originally Posted by bttrfly
Keep doing whatever you can that will bring you peace.

Thanks, bttrfly. This is really all I can do, as in actively do, and it is a good place to keep my focus. And my focus is on being outside and with my flowers and creatures most of the time.

may, I feel like I have developed a force field that mostly works, but it fritzes out or loses its power at unexpected times (maybe I need DnJ to repair—ha!), and then I’m like, where did my force field go? I’m suddenly vulnerable and all these feelings come rushing in. This morning I was half-awake and just missing the kind of banter and connection I had with old H. I can remember it very clearly. I tried to just pray that he would work through things and find himself, because I know none of that is up to me. And then I get frustrated that I still miss him so much at times. Maybe it is like I fall into a mini black hole. I think I need to work on having compassion for myself on days like this.

I love that there are little baby cardinals in your yard! A few doors down there are young hawks, and they fly from tree to tree screeching every morning. Pretty noisy too, but I like their company.

I wanted a peach pie, but it’s so hot that I told myself I wouldn’t bake. And then I settled in a peach crisp instead. smile There’ll be some tomorrow morning, if anyone wants to stop by.


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mmmm.... I want some peach crisp!

Yes, you need to be kind to yourself. Of course you feel that way sometimes. Is there something you can do in those times to help yourself work through it and reestablish your force field? Like indulge for some amount of time-- let yourself be sad and experience and name those feelings-- and then move on to another activity, like meditation, gardening, exercise? Call or text a friend? I just wonder if you can find a way (or several ways) to reliably help yourself pull out of the mini black hole and build back up your force field, it might be less unsettling when it happens.

My D10 made madeleines the other day-- they were delish. We used mini muffin pans since we don't have a madeleine pan and it worked really well.

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Good Morning cardinal

I love reading about all the baking and cooking you are doing. Well done!

mmmmm. Peach crisp. I’m on my way! smile

Originally Posted by cardinal
I think I just try to not think about this or ignore it most of the time, but it does still get to me that he can mute any emotions he might have. It feels like I am living with someone who is numb, while I feel all the feelings even when I'd rather not. I know this numbness also goes along with depression sometimes, and maybe part of it is compartmentalization and maybe part of it is depression. I can’t know.

You cannot know exactly what is going on in his head. He doesn’t even know.

Remember his path is emotionally driven. His emotions are cranked to 11. His depression is ever present and his temporary ignoring or muting his emotions is how he attempts to function.

Make no mistake, his muting is a temporary measure. MLCer’s demons come out to torment when the crisis person slows their emotional running.

****
MLCer,

At night, in the still darkness, when the world is asleep. When the bars are closed, and the theatres are closed. When the stores are closed. When your friends aren’t available. When the drugs and alcohol no longer numb, I am here. You cannot hide. You will run and you will tire. And I am still here. You cannot outrun me, for I am within you. I am ceaseless and relentless.

I am The Darkness Within.
****

H is trying to hold all that at bay. It’s a huge emotional dam that has burst. MLCers spend a good deal of time in denial and anger. And anger turned inward is depression.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I just felt a lot of sadness about it, then was not okay with the fact that I still have all of this sadness and reluctance in me. Like most of the time when I don't feel it, I think--maybe it's gone! I'm not loving that it can just resurface. I realized I had this expectation that it would go away completely. When someone dies, though, that grief never fully leaves, does it? It just changes shape and maybe sharpness.

We let go. We grab back on. We let go again.

It’s ok. It’s normal.

We do find acceptance, compassion, and forgiveness. And those loving longing feelings never completely go away. We just accept them.

The grief makes less and less appearances for briefer and briefer times as we progress. I don’t believe it ever completely goes away - for we loved/love that person. It’s ok to miss them and the relationship you had.

The shape and sharpness of grief does change. Becomes something different, something more. Acceptance turns it to a memory. A pleasant almost daydream stroll down memory lane. My heart still has an interesting flutter when I recall my marriage and W (not XW). I get a smile and a wee pour of happy feelings; nothing overwhelming, just an almost daydream-like somewhat fleeting experience. It is similar for my long dead Grandma, Grandpa, Aunts, Uncles, past beloved pets, etc.

In my opinion, you are on the correct path and have captured the progress towards acceptance perfectly. The mixture of expectations, letting go, the sadness, the joy, the doubt of if you should be happy and accept the end.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I feel like I have developed a force field that mostly works, but it fritzes out or loses its power at unexpected times (maybe I need DnJ to repair—ha!), and then I’m like, where did my force field go? I’m suddenly vulnerable and all these feelings come rushing in.

It sounds like your force field is working fine. I do like to repair, but no need to fix what ain’t broke. smile

Those rushing feelings, don’t rushing in - they rush up. Rush up from within. The force field is indifference to our emotions. It’s suppose to lower and then go back up. You are doing fine.

Treat yourself with compassion; for it’s a very good road to walk, and you are most assuredly worthy of it.

With all the references to mini black holes, the pull of gravity, force fields and such. Have a listen to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_U6iSAn_fY

D


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Trying to work through something. It's been a hard day for various reasons. Seems to be the culmination of this wave of grief, where I spent the afternoon feeling the pain I used to feel every day after BD, that super fresh feeling of disbelief that everything is over just like that, and missing H. may, I have been thinking about what bttrfly said as well: keep doing the things that bring me peace. So I garden and listen to guided meditations and talk to my dear friend who was my maid of honor and knew H. She has been so supportive this year. But today it was like I traveled back in time to last summer and nothing would help. Luckily H was gone most of the day, so I cried to my mom on the phone for a while. I feel like I should be in a place a year later where I am totally accepting that M is over, D is just a formality at this point, and I think I am there a lot of the time, but then—it's true, the feelings are in the forcefield, within me—all this stuff rises up, reminding me that deep down the feelings are still there: I don't want D and am still grieving so hard, and D feels like a whole new round of grief, even if it shouldn't mean anything different.

It's like... something or other occasionally reminds me that I still haven't managed to fully quash expectations. Like I just hid them somewhere I don't often look instead. What's the point in hoping we don't D when it's not like H is using this time to reconsider or work on himself? Shouldn't I be ready for this next phase by now, especially if I suspect H needs to travel that path in order to get anywhere in his own journey? It has seemed inevitable for a while, why delay it?

I'm just still so... sad about the way things are, even if I can have more joyful days and moments. The word "sad" seems incredibly inadequate. Underneath there's this bottomless well of grief and longing to have my M back. It's painful to have these good memories of us right now. I have to trust DnJ and others who are further along are right, that they won't be so painful with time. Today, I just sort of wish I didn't have these memories. I should be thankful I don't wake up and feel it every day like I used to... but when I do feel it, it's just as strong.

I'm having trouble putting into words why today's wave felt different. I think I sound like a broken record. Maybe it was another step in acknowledging what I've lost, in facing it. Part of me still doesn't want to face it, so it feels like fresh grief. I had the same feelings I had a few weeks ago: that because I broke up with H in college, we dated other people, then a year later he admitted he'd been running from his feelings, trying to stay busy and use distractions to cover them up (and we got back together)—that in part because of this, I am hopeful there is a different future with H; that I can't believe I will never see the H I knew again; that I both feel like I will always believe in our love, always hope, and also fear that I will always hope. That I will always be longing for what we had, for the life I lived with H and a version of it where we evolved.

Originally Posted by DnJ
We let go. We grab back on. We let go again.

It’s ok. It’s normal.

We do find acceptance, compassion, and forgiveness. And those loving longing feelings never completely go away. We just accept them.

The grief makes less and less appearances for briefer and briefer times as we progress. I don’t believe it ever completely goes away - for we loved/love that person. It’s ok to miss them and the relationship you had.


I guess I'm just still experiencing this. Letting go, grabbing back on again. Of course I cried at "Gravity," D. Grieving. It's hard. It's exhausting. It sometimes feels like a full-time job. Letting go. I don't think I can consciously do it or hurry it up. I think I have to trust that I am trying and that it will happen on its own.

I know I am feeling disappointed to still have all of these strong feelings for H, for M, to find myself wishing. I know it's not helpful to criticize myself for not being any other way in the present. I want so much to let go of all expectations for H, for the future. I also want to much to have a future with old H or future H. Opposing forces. Maybe what I really need to focus on is letting go of expectations for myself, for what I want or don't want and whether or not that lines up with what I "should" want. I've worked so hard on finding compassion for H. Maybe it's time to really work on allowing myself to feel what I feel, instead of working so hard to resist it. That is hard when I am afraid of what I feel, or when what I feel happens to be the bottomless well of sadness.

I did make bread today. There is that.


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Hello cardinal

Originally Posted by cardinal
I feel like I should be in a place a year later where I am totally accepting that M is over, D is just a formality at this point, and I think I am there a lot of the time, but then—it's true, the feelings are in the forcefield, within me—all this stuff rises up, reminding me that deep down the feelings are still there: I don't want D and am still grieving so hard, and D feels like a whole new round of grief, even if it shouldn't mean anything different.

Be gentle on yourself. (((cardinal)))

Divorce is never just a formality. This takes time to accept as does the separation, the end of R, his cheating, his lying, etc. You are doing very well. I mean that!!!

I know you don’t want a divorce. And I empathize with your feelings.

Indifference mutes your emotions and allows you to find your beliefs and convictions. You, my dear cardinal, understand and even believe in compassion. Follow your beliefs. Those are your headings during this storm. Feelings change quickly; beliefs are slow to alter. Look to what you have crafted and strengthened. Look to who cardinal is.

Finding and living compassionate indifference.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I am hopeful there is a different future with H; that I can't believe I will never see the H I knew again; that I both feel like I will always believe in our love, always hope, and also fear that I will always hope. That I will always be longing for what we had, for the life I lived with H and a version of it where we evolved.

I can't find it hard to believe I will never see the H I knew again...

I can't believe I will am dumbfounded that I may never see the H I knew again...

Please, “can’t believe” keeps you stuck. I was there. It is really amazing at what we hear and the influence it exerts.

I understand, and remember, believing in love and hope, and fearing I would always love and hope. Let go your fear. It’s ok.

Have faith, you will not always be longing for the life you had, or for H. Things become more just a memory, a fact, a value.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I'm just still so... sad about the way things are, even if I can have more joyful days and moments. The word "sad" seems incredibly inadequate. Underneath there's this bottomless well of grief and longing to have my M back. It's painful to have these good memories of us right now. I have to trust DnJ and others who are further along are right, that they won't be so painful with time.

Yes, sad is so inadequate for describing this feeling.

The stage of grief that usually proceeds acceptance is depression. This is depression. Bottomless sadness and longing. It feels like it will never end. Know different. Believe different.

Your feelings are fine and perfectly normal. In fact they do you credit; the deeper and truer your love (and loss) the greater the depression. Grief is our emotional journey. Acceptance is our emotional understanding.

I am honoured to have earned your trust cardinal. It is very true, in time this will be look upon with a much different perspective, and without the pain and sadness you are currently experiencing.

Counterintuitive. You found compassion. You have compassion. Believe in it. Live it.

Continue moving forward with compassion. Especially for yourself. You deserve and are worthy of it.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I've worked so hard on finding compassion for H. Maybe it's time to really work on allowing myself to feel what I feel, instead of working so hard to resist it. That is hard when I am afraid of what I feel, or when what I feel happens to be the bottomless well of sadness.

As indifference lifts our feelings return. Having done the inner work and knowing and crafting who you are happy with - believe in her. Feel your feelings and follow your values. Don’t worry, feelings are fleeting, they will change. Even if it doesn’t feel that way.

Originally Posted by cardinal
Grieving. It's hard. It's exhausting. It sometimes feels like a full-time job. Letting go. I don't think I can consciously do it or hurry it up. I think I have to trust that I am trying and that it will happen on its own.

Very well said. Much wisdom.

Yes, grief takes as long as it takes. It will be done when it done and not a second earlier. Remember, grief is our emotional journey. We only control our thoughts and actions, which can influence our emotions. Follow your values and beliefs.

Answers, steps towards acceptance, present themselves when we sit quietly, when we focus on ourselves, when we live and keep moving forward. These answers are to question we don’t yet realize. These answers come when not forced.

I am glad you liked the song. It does bring the tears doesn’t it.

What type of bread did you bake today?

D


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so my darling, have you worked as hard to find compassion for yourself?

think about it.

also, Ho Oponopono ... it's a thing. It's real. Check it out.

Loving kindness starts by giving loving kindness to ourselves first.

We must ALWAYS source ourselves first.

I know that while I was feeling the depths you're experiencing (and I was just there *again* this past week on a brief visit, but notice the operative word: brief) I asked myself what part I played in all of this. That's the time to really focus on self care.

Guess what else I learned this weekend? Self care is healthy boundaries! Like when the lady at the farm stand wouldn't leave me alone as I was sobbing in my car on the phone with a dear friend, it was absolutely necessary for me to set a healthy boundary so I could get that grief out safely. That is a form of self care.

I know you're staying grounded but what other ways are you practicing self care? Make a list.

What are you grateful for since BD?

Again, make a list.

These suggestions are not to distract you from your grief; rather they helped me cope with it.

Hope this helps xoxoxoxo

PS the keywords for this time for me were integrity, fierce compassion, love.
the hardest part of Ho Oponopono is the last part. Thank you for the lessons of BD? what madness is this?? I can tell you there is value in an examination of the lessons of BD.


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Well, I had a feeling he was up to something. He just told me he's filing and he's seeing someone and he's happy. Here is our convo, maybe a bit out of order, just now:

He says he is filing soon and will let me know before I am served. I am calm. I say, okay.

I ask about mediation, and he says we should be able to come to an agreement on our own, because we have no children and we don't own our house. He says it should be straightforward.

I say, it is 50-50.

He agrees. He says we will have time to work all of this out together once he files.

I bring up the house, who is going to live here, as an issue.

He says he hadn't planned on moving, he wanted to stay, but now he guesses he will have to move.

I say yes, I'm planning on staying here.

He says, You can’t afford it.

I said, I can with support.

He says that doesn’t last forever.

I say I’m hoping to have a job in the next year.

I ask if he has a timeline in mind for moving out. He says no. We have time.

I say I'll need financial information, including all the bills he pays that I don't have access to, so that I can start to make a budget. He says he'll get me all of that.

He says he’s sorry it happened the way it did. He knew he couldn’t be happy. He says he's in a relationship now and he's happy.

I WANT TO SCREAM HERE AND SAY SOMETHING ABOUT HOW HE COULD HAVE GOTTEN D BEFORE A NEW R, but I don't. Should I have said anything here?

I do think I said something like, well, I married you, I do want you to be happy. (Trying to focus on letting him go even though I want to be angry.)

He says he was going to file before, but then Covid happened. He doesn't understand why I won't ever talk to him about anything. He says the problem with our whole relationship is that I wouldn’t communicate. (Pretty sure he said "I wouldn't" here and not we.)

I WANT TO YELL AGAIN. Because all I've been working on with my IC is how to improve communication. Multiple times in the fall before I went more NC, I was writing him notes, having little convos to just let him know I was here to talk, etc. To try to just let him know I was open to communicate. But for the first six months after BD, he was drinking all the time and partying/gone all the time.

I don't say any of this.Plus, I don't see how it's on me to communicate about D, to keep asking how that's going, when is he going to file, etc. Doesn't understand why I haven’t been talking to him. Why I wouldn’t ask him for help/things. It's like I'm scared to talk to him.

I said, I might have been a bit scared away when I tried to talk to you after Thanksgiving (because he blew up! when I tried to continue a convo about how we would move forward and work on this agreement he said we were coming to ourselves. He spewed, said he didn't have time to talk, and I said, well, let me know when you want to talk, and he left. END OF STORY.

He said he doesn’t remember it that way. He remembers I wanted to talk about working on our R (nope!). But then he says, "But I don't remember a lot of the last year because it's been stupid."

I said, he's been living his life and I’ve been giving him space. I’ve been living my life, too. I'd felt like it was up to him to move things forward with D/talking about agreement.

He says again, he is here to talk any time I want to talk.

--

This is like the calm convo he had about moving forward with D before Thanksgiving. He was apologetic and said we could talk whenever, just let him know. Every time I wanted to talk about agreement, he said he didn't have time. We scheduled the post-Thanksgiving time, and he ranted and left to go out with friends. Now he seems to be blaming me for not communicating.

I need some reassurance, if possible. I always second-guess everything I do/don't do with him. I have been feeling okay about basically leaving him alone, and now he is saying again that we can't communicate and that's why our M failed.

How do I act around him going forward? He's going to say I'm not communicating no matter what, I guess.

Plus, I am so, so angry that he's never showed any emotion about our 17 year R ending. And now he's "happy" with a new person. Like I said, I'm not entirely surprised, but it still hurts like h*ll.

Should I have said anything about how disappointed I am in him? I wanted to push back so much on how he's been AWOL for a lot of the past year and could have easily talked to me about D any time he wanted to, but I didn't. I feel like I'm keeping in so much emotion, because it would come out the way I don't want it to. It would be me arguing his version of the past year or the M and trying to get him to accept blame, and that seems pointless.

I can't ask him to leave ASAP, because we need an agreement first and I need to be receiving support. I'm planning to get the financial info from him, refine my budget to reflect it, have another L consult so I know going into talking with him exactly what I'm entitled to--like I want to have it written down.


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This is sort of expanding on my question above, but how happy and upbeat do I have to be acting right now? It seems exhausting to keep pretending I’m great! Don’t care that H is an alien and finally has an OW! I had lost my appetite this week, didn’t feel good yesterday, and definitely don’t feel like eating now. I know I shouldn’t go around the house crying around him, but can I just be quiet and non-jokey if he engages? Can I just be however the heck I feel like being right now in my own house? I feel like I have to be a certain amount of “normal” until we have an agreement while he seems calm and happy about OW, so it can hopefully benefit me too. But it feels so strange to act like nothing has changed, and I am unaffected. I mean... it’s not a shock, but I’m—no surprise—still grieving old H. And I’m stressed about not having health insurance once the D timeline starts ticking, plus a hundred other things.


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((((Cardinal)))))

If you ever have the chance to look at my first threads, and then my latest threads, it can give you some insight.

Not that it will go that way for you. I still believe restoration is possible for many people.

But just for you to see how in the early stages, we are so submissive, so unsure, still trying, still thinking that the minute-by-minute means anything.

I always wanted a script of what to say, so I will give you one, take or leave!

I understand you want to start a new life and you do not want to be married to me anymore. I don't believe that what you are doing is right or good for either of us and I do not want to split up, but I accept your choice and need space and time to heal and to be able to live my own life. Out of respect for our marriage, I cannot have you living here while you are in a relationship with someone else; you need to move out right away, even if you have to stay with friends, but you can leave your things here until next month.

I want to stay here. We can get the house appraised next month to figure out the equity and come up with a list of any other assets and debts which we can use as a credit toward my share of equity. I will be able to buy you out by next summer for whatever remains from that. In the meantime, I can pay 75% of the mortgage (100 if you can, even if you have to AirB a room, it's worth your freedom!) We can put that in an agreement now or reconvene about it next spring.

The door may be open for you down the line, but right now I need space to heal. Please respect that.


Don't doubt yourself, Cardinal! Do what you have to do to be truly alone and have peace. I promise you,it will feel better when you don't have to see him anymore. There is a reason to go dark. It won't fix him. It will help you. If you want to keep standing, keep a corner of your heart open for him. But let yourself heal.




Last edited by Gerda; 07/16/20 03:38 AM.

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Hello cardinal

(((Hugs)))

Sorry. I know it feels terrible.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I need some reassurance, if possible. I always second-guess everything I do/don't do with him. I have been feeling okay about basically leaving him alone, and now he is saying again that we can't communicate and that's why our M failed.

cardinal, you did fine.

You didn’t blow up at him. You didn’t take the bait. You did perfect. Second-guessing is a good and normal response; shows your willingness to learn and do better when possible.

Trust me, H wanted you to get angry. He wants an excuse to do what he is doing. He wants to blame you. It’s clear as day. Even when you don’t give him a reason, he’ll make it up. Examples: the thanksgiving talk, you are the one not communicating (so not true!), the M will never work out, blah, blah, etc., etc. Pay no attention to his irrational rants.

He is projecting upon you. Most everything he says about you is actually about him. He just can’t be the one at fault, so therefore you must be. The irrational logic of a person in crisis is dizzyingly twisted in its simplistic complication. In other words it is pretty simple, but he will twist it and make it seem so complicated.

Let’s see if I can help you through this rough part of your path. If you’ll have me.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I WANT TO SCREAM HERE AND SAY SOMETHING ABOUT HOW HE COULD HAVE GOTTEN D BEFORE A NEW R, but I don't. Should I have said anything here?

Saying nothing was perfect.

That answer is going to be the same for probably all your questions of if you should have said something. And here is why (not in order of importance):

As I said, H is looking for justification to leave. He wants you to blow up at him. He can then proceed with a clearer conscience. (I find that idea a bit laughable). He can then more easily blame you. You didn’t fall for it and you didn’t give that to him. Well done!

Contrary to H’s insistence that the divorce should/will go smooth and everything can be sort out between the two of you - No! Get a lawyer. Therefore, keeping your cool with him, keeps him off balance, keeps him happier, keeps him feeling guiltier. He will be more amicable, or less confrontational, during negations. A guilty spouse usually gives a better offer. And you deserve better!

You also aren’t pushing for a divorce - he is. So you not giving any ammo is to your benefit. Let him do all the heavy lifting. You just protect yourself and your future. Ensure that you do!

And last, and most important, holding your tongue is for you! Come here, vent, scream, type in all caps if you need. Give yourself 48 hours before responding to H. And make no agreements without consultation. In time, you not blowing up at H will pay huge dividends to your emotional health and well-being.

Does H deserve you blasting him? OH YES! He sure does. However, imagine a few years from now...how do you think you’d be with that? Compassion and forgiveness is for you. Always has been. As counterintuitive as that feels right now. Continue on that path. Beliefs vs feelings.

Originally Posted by cardinal
How do I act around him going forward? He's going to say I'm not communicating no matter what, I guess.

You are strong and smart! You don’t need to act around him. Be. Be you around him. Be your values. Be your compassion. Be the woman that only a fool would leave. That is all for you. And that is - all you!

So not act. Be...behave. How do you behave around him. Your behaviour is authentic. Do as you have been doing. GAL. Roommate. Focus on you.

Originally Posted by cardinal
Plus, I am so, so angry that he's never showed any emotion about our 17 year R ending. And now he's "happy" with a new person. Like I said, I'm not entirely surprised, but it still hurts like h*ll.

Yes, it hurts.

When my XW blew up she didn’t show any regrets either.

Remember these MLCers are completely passed the point of us reaching them. They have been consumed by torment and ran to escape. Us LBS are usually deer in the headlights and get mowed down; like anyone else who gets in their way.

The MLCer has a complete loss of empathy. They cannot handle their own emotions never mind anyone else’s. So yes, no emotions about ending a long term marriage is pretty standard stuff for the crisis individual. Think of that for a bit - they throw all that away and hardly bat an eye. Wow, how far gone do you have to get to feel like that?

For your anger. Let it out. Safely. Go for a run. Sweat it out. Scream into a pillow. Whatever. Just don’t blast it towards H. Sure blasting H may feel good, but only for a while. Feel it, and let it wash over you.

Originally Posted by cardinal
Should I have said anything about how disappointed I am in him? I wanted to push back so much on how he's been AWOL for a lot of the past year and could have easily talked to me about D any time he wanted to, but I didn't. I feel like I'm keeping in so much emotion, because it would come out the way I don't want it to. It would be me arguing his version of the past year or the M and trying to get him to accept blame, and that seems pointless.

You are correct and most wise. It would be pointless.

It is aggravating, I get it. H has rewritten his history, his marriage. He is ping ponging all around emotionally and will act erratically. You trying to get him to see, will not work. His journey is about him, not you. Never was about you.

His trauma likely predates you completely. Happening when he was quite young. Remember that, when you feel like fighting with him or his truth - you are fighting that scared little boy. A boy that was abused or such by a person in a position of authority over him.

Currently, and very unfortunately, H has irrationally, unwittingly, and unknowingly, tied you to that long ago lost authority figure. He is compelled to rebel against you; which is actually rebelling against whomever was his childhood transgressor. You remaining conflict-free with him allows him to smash against your rock without any fighting from you. Eventually H will realize you haven’t done anything against him for months/years. Which then he realizes you never really did anything against him at all. So, how can you be the cause. And hopefully he awakens to what really happened, to what he buried as a child.

As I said, his path. Your path is different.

We all learn by doing. Compassion, empathy, understanding, forgiveness. Those four (and more) positive traits, beliefs, values, actions, behaviours, etc... we enact towards our spouse. We then turn those towards ourselves.

Self care is learnt. It is not something we are born with. We emulate what other good we see. We perform those acts on others. And then finally, find compassion and forgiveness for ourselves.

We are our own worst critic. Be gentle on yourself. Acknowledge and release your emotions. Find compassion for you. Forgive yourself.

The LBS’s path is an incredible opportunity. One that most people are never exposed too. And for those that are, few really fully embrace it. For what it’s worth, you are one of the few. Do stay to the path. It gets much smoother. And so very much better.

Right now you have some business side stuff to look after too.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I can't ask him to leave ASAP, because we need an agreement first and I need to be receiving support. I'm planning to get the financial info from him, refine my budget to reflect it, have another L consult so I know going into talking with him exactly what I'm entitled to--like I want to have it written down.

Good. Get legal counsel and get it written down. Be prepared. (Don’t act prepared smile )

By the way, of course you can ask him to leave before an agreement. It may not be in your best interest to do so (ask lawyer). I just want you to realize, you “can”. And you are deciding your actions. It’s small I know, but has big mental implication for you. You are taking charge. Things are not chaotic and out of control.

Quote
I’m not asking him to leave ASAP, because I want an agreement first and I want to be receiving support.

A few word changes, which I believe captures what you are actually doing.

Stay strong. You got this.

D


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DnJ said it all. I'm just offering a hug (((cardinal))).


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Gerda, Scout, D—I can't thank you enough for being here. Whew. I think my emotions are going to be all over the place for a while. It was so hard to hold everything in while he was talking and to respond as if I didn't care much about any of it. I was just thinking, don't react impulsively and based on the terrible things you're feeling; say as little as you can! And then I had to release all of it after--here, to my mom, to my friend. I guess that is what I can keep doing--all the anger and sadness goes here and to my family, friends, IC. As far as H sees, I am indifferent and have accepted what he is doing/has decided, and it is all business. I hope that will get easier as time goes on, because it took so much out of me not so argue or react.

Originally Posted by DnJ
You are strong and smart! You don’t need to act around him. Be. Be you around him. Be your values. Be your compassion. Be the woman that only a fool would leave. That is all for you. And that is - all you!

In other words, oof, was it hard to be (and it feels hard to continue to be) my values. I want to accept, let go, be compassionate—go, H, be happy, is basically what I said when he told me about OW—but I don't feel these things right now. I guess that's why I feel I'm acting. I had to pretend to be the person I want to be and am trying to become (already moved on, confident I can't change anything and will be fine on my own), but that is not the person I am inside at the moment.

I can't remember if I already said this at some point, but I never really blew up at H after BD, so it feels like something I'm holding in sometimes still. Even during/after BD, I mostly cried and was very sad, and when I did blow up a little, it was to say I could never forgive myself, because I was really taking on all the blame he was putting on me. Like 90% of it, instead of half.

So on the one hand it is hard to imagine my never telling him how disappointed I am in him tossing our vows away or how much he has hurt me. Because I also still have that persistent yet distant worry that I am feeding one of his stories, that I never really loved him. Who even knows if he believes that anymore. I know that is the counterintuitive part. I know it doesn't matter what I do, he would find a way to reinforce his story because he has to keep running further and further from this part of his life. And I don't know how I would feel about that years later, D. I keep hoping I am doing all this for myself, so that I will have no regrets later. And there's even less point in wanting to prove anything if he's with someone else. He's really checked out. Maybe some small part of me wonders if I will regret never speaking my mind and putting half the blame back on him, even if he doesn't accept it. Maybe that is because I am still having trouble putting down all the blame myself, and I feel like I need somewhere to aim it.

When I step outside myself, I can see it's not about me, and he's repeating the pattern of not being able to stay single for any amount of time, even though he probably can't have processed much or spent much time sorting out his own feelings. If MLC, I guess he can't. He's not capable of that right now. He seems to have gone through many different selves in the last year or so, and now he's going to morph into a mirror of the OW. Maybe that's where some of his latest hobbies have come from. It's an easier solution to an identity crisis, and it has to be, I would think, a somewhat temporary one. When I step outside myself, it's not about me, so I don't care. But when I'm not able to do that, I just feel terrible and hate to imagine them together already.

I'm rambling.But I want to put this down while I feel it, because so often I get sucked back into his story, the guy standing in front of me telling me he's met someone and he's happy like this is a normal thing you tell your wife, like it's normal to dive into another R that of course won't have any communication issues, because I was the source of that! I didn't think of this in the moment when he was talking (and it's probably good I didn't!), but, um, I know he struggles with communication too, because, well, BD, right? He couldn't tell me he'd been unhappy before it got to BD, and even then, I had to pull BD out of him. Then suddenly he could communicate many resentments.

D, I always appreciate the way you break everything down for me, walk me through the basics of MLC again, and help me see things a little more clearly. I really need this kind of guidance to help me keep things in perspective. I still have trouble seeing my and H's exchanges clearly, because they happen so rarely, and my emotions also go to 11, and I spend the rest of my brainpower on staying outwardly calm.

Gerda and D, thanks for reminding me that I "can" ask him to leave. Gerda, that's how I feel--that if he's in another R, he does not belong here. In my mind and by law we are still married, but I know from his perspective that wouldn't make sense, because our M and R ended at BD. At any rate, I think I will likely get a better deal if I choose not to ask him to leave. I was at least a little relieved he was already planning to go at some point. I think it helps he now has an OW to go to, so he’s less attached to staying here.

If I look at my keeping friendly-neighbor status quo for now with H less as me pretending and more as a way to 1) hopefully help ensure a good agreement and future for me; 2) avoid giving H the anger/argument/confrontation he wants or would use to further justify his running; and 3) though it feels more difficult, as a way to continue acting with compassion and understanding and not resentment and anger because that is better in the long run for me… well, then friendly-neighbor status quo seems slightly more doable.

As for how to move forward with potential agreement-making: I will have another lawyer consult once I get financial info from H and have drafted another budget, before we even start to discuss an agreement. I already know the basics of what I am entitled to, but I want another opinion and specifics. I think it’s good to remember if we come up with a draft agreement, and then a L advises me against something in it, I am still not bound to that agreement.

If H ever tries to hurry me along or asks for an answer on something I am not ready to answer, I will say, I will get back to you. Though I think it is in my best interest to get an agreement done sooner rather than later, I will not be pressured or rushed to make decisions. I think I should also be prepared for H to go from calm, "We can talk any time," mode to angry or avoidance mode again. That's been the pattern for the last year anyway.

Anything else I need to keep in mind on the approaching agreement side of things? Maybe saying less is better here, too? I have a hard time with this, because I really have to work from saying too much and not saying what I'm thinking with H. Hence my looong posts, I guess. smile

I think I am maybe going through another little round of shock, and will hit grief/depression again, which I'm not looking forward to. This whole thing still sometimes feels like a long nightmare with a side of pandemic. Right now it kind of feels like, okay, I have all of these good memories of our M despite everything, and of H really being happy and telling me he loved me, and others have said they also observed his happiness, but what is the point if I am the only one with these memories now?

Also, wooba, may, what is it in the air this summer that is stirring all of these WAH up?!


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100% what D said

I'm going to lay this out from a surviving divorce with as little damage as possible perspective. We will table all thoughts of standing for the purposes of this discussion. Separate the two. It's important.

You are now living with the enemy, in terms of finances. He will most likely be pleasant as long as everything goes the way he has it planned in his head, which is not necessarily going to be rational or equitable and certainly not to your best interests. Even if he's the best, most fair future exh ever in the history of the world, it cannot be in your best interests because you and you alone know what those interests are. They are based in no small part on a ruthless examination of yourself and your core values.

Take care of your finances. Think about what you want and need. Insurance is part of the divorce agreement. Having no kids is less piece to negotiate through, but you've been married 10 years. In some states the 6 before may count too, if you lived together.

Get representation. If you need to you can petition that he pays.

Remember it's his divorce, but it's your future.

You need to look at this part of the show a little differently: when it comes to negotiating your agreement, you need to be clinical and business oriented. This isn't a marriage, but a business partnership that has failed and is being dissolved. How would you proceed from a business perspective? Any and all ability to separate the marriage from the failed business will be to your advantage as you work out the details. This is critical and this is very important. I cannot stress enough that the person who looks at this as a failed business venture will come out with less financial damage.

Again, think about what you want and what you need. You want the house. What will you need to keep it? Ask an attorney if you've been married long enough to be entitled to his Social Security upon retirement. Not that you will get his, but that your amount will be based on his. I'm not sure how that works, or what the years in marriage are that qualify one - someone else can speak to this, but if he was the major breadwinner, then your amount will be based on his earnings. Another thing to ask a lawyer. This is the long term financial planning you need to do.

I'm very very sorry that this is happening.

I want to say something else: part of what you want can, and in my humble opinion should, include in your divorce planning is how you want to feel about your part in the next bit. Meaning, when you look back 5 years from now how do you want to see your behavior? Do you want to employ a scorched earth policy? Do you want to look back and say that for the majority of this time you've taken the high road and acted with fierce compassion? Is it something in between? Only you can decide. Take as much time as YOU need. Do not fold to another's timetable, his or OW. I feel this is important, Cardinal, because you have to live with yourself after this, and you want to make sure you are true to your values.

You know who you were when you met him. You know who you were as a partner/wife. You have hopefully gotten to know yourself a little better during this hellish process. Ultimately, all we really have at the end of all this, whether our marriages survive or not, is ourselves. I'm going to say that again: even for the lucky few people who get to piecing and get through all this with a new and improved marriage to their beloved spouse on the other end of this mess, ultimately, even with that relationship, all anyone really ever has is themselves, their core values, who they are. In a very real way, you are in a crucible right now, burning away everything except your core values. What are they? Write them down. Be true to them in all your dealings. I hope this makes sense to you. It's late here, and for my own reasons I'm stressed, so I'm not sure I'm conveying this as I hope to.

Once you have your core values, measure all decisions against that paradigm.

I'm sending you hugs, and strength. You've done a marvelous job, better than I did, as my Italian temper really got the better of me on more than one occasion. The toll it takes to stay as outwardly calm as you did is immense. You're not feeling well because you're internalizing all of it. If you can't eat, that's ok. But you need nutrition for your body and mind as you go through this. Smoothies are a good substitute. Try to get your veggies in that way. If you have to drink one smoothie over the course of the entire day, don't worry about it, as long as you're getting something healthy and staying hydrated also. I broke out the Nutribullet and put all my vegetables and some fruits into that to try to stay nourished, added medicinal mushroom powder and protein powder as well. Sometimes I could finish one during the course of the day, sometimes I couldn't but at least it was something healthy for my body and mind.

A word about this marvelous relationship and his happiness - it's easy to start new and get all caught up in the illusion of this new shiny bauble. But let's get real: this woman is now in a relationship with a married man. We don't know what he's told her to make her think this is a good idea. We don't know what kind of a person she is. We do know that she's a distraction from the reality of his inner turmoil and a quick fix. Those don't work. Stay the course. Focus on you and what you want and what you need. Do not allow yourself to be distracted by him and his process. This is important.

{{{{{{{Cardinal}}}}}}}


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(((CARDINAL)))

You have amazing advice on your threads, far beyond anything I can offer. What I do want to say is that you are an incredible, strong, centered, wise, compassionate, loving person. Your H is an @ss. I'm so sorry that he's behaving this way and he doesn't deserve you in a million years.

I want to give you permission to do whatever you need to do for yourself. You don't need to be upbeat or kind. if you want to be distant and quiet-- by all means. Focus now on what you need to get yourself through this crisis, lean on friends and family, talk to your L and protect yourself. The "business relationship" model has been a helpful way for me to think about D.

Don't second guess what you said or didn't say during the talk-- in my experience saying less is always better if you can manage it. So you did great.

Can you think more about your story now and what you want it to be, rather than being so tied up in his?

xoxoxoxo M thinking of you so much right now. I wish I could give you a hug and bring you something lovely to eat.


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Cardinal,

I am so sorry that he's blown the ship right out of the water. Everyone has given you excellent, and I mean excellent advice. It's going to be difficult, but you must continue as you have been w/respect to treating him "nicely". I'm not saying bend over backwards, but go on about your business as if it's just another day moving forward.

I highly recommend that you contact a lawyer and get some info about what you are entitled to and what you will need in the way of info for the separation of assets. I wouldn't rely on anything that he is saying at the moment because it will change if the boat is rocked. The best thing is to strike while the iron is hot and get everything written up and in place w/a lawyer and please, do not agree to go w/the same lawyer that he has. You need your own lawyer to protect you, not him.

Do not allow him to mess w/your mind and make you think that you can't live in your home. You need to find out what your state will allow you in the way of support. Talk to a lawyer about this.

Everything now has to be treated as a business deal whereby your partner has gone off the rails. Protect yourself at all costs because he is not one bit interested in giving you what you are rightfully entitled to. If he can figure out a way to just give you a little bit in the way of funds, he will attempt to do so. His empathy chip has completely shattered and you are the only sane/rational one in the mix.

Hang in there, stay strong and trust your instincts because right now, he's being nice, but that will change if he thinks you are questioning anything he tells you or you argue w/him.


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bttrfly, your post meant so much to me last night. I couldn't sleep, and there it was. I know you are going through stress yourself right now, and I am just so grateful for your taking the time to share your wisdom here with me. I haven't even replied to your previous post yet, but one of the things that was running through my head last night was I'm sorry/Please forgive me/I love you/I thank you.There is much to for me to think about, both in that post and your last one, and I have some questions re: fierce compassion, but I only managed three hours of sleep last night and I will reply more soon. I hope you found some peace last night, since you were awake too.

may, thank you for your support! H is really a duck sometimes, isn't he? I was reading your thread last night and also thinking, well, focusing on my story partly involves consequences for H now. What does that look like in my situation? I was thinking about what scout just posted on your thread re: consequences as reality and not punishment. I guess, here, consequences mean his moving out and supporting me to the full extent of the law. I know I'm not in a good place, because I do want there to be more consequences, such as huge regrets on his part and a disastrous R with OW.

(Side note: Do D agreements sometimes stipulate the higher-earning party also supports by paying for health insurance? I think you mentioned something like that, bttrfly. That would take a load off my mind, but I don't know if getting the best support payment I could would mean H couldn't manage more for health insurance too. I looked into the open market options here, and of course I wouldn't have enough income to pay for it, but with support payments would make just enough that I wouldn't qualify for assistance.)

I couldn't sleep, in part because all of that internalized rage kept cycling through my head and my heart. I'm hoping if I write it out here, I'll be able to get more sleep before work. I kept thinking of things I could have said to H when he said I haven't been communicating and that he doesn't remember a lot from the last year because it's been "stupid", from really sarcastic, ill-advised stuff (Has this year been stupid for you? I get that--I lost my husband and best friend in one night, and didn't self-medicate to block it out, so I remember everything, etc etc), to calmly stating things like, I'm not sure what I am supposed to have been communicating with you about in the last year. Could you explain? I told you my perspective early on, which was that I preferred to work on the M, but that you were free to act on D. When I did try to open up lines of communication, you were more likely to ignore me or yell at me. Communication works both ways: You chose to confide in others and not me when you were unhappy and considering divorce, and then, at BD, you put up an even taller wall between us. If you are pursuing divorce, it has been up to you to communicate these decisions to me when necessary.

I also cycled through things I'd like to say to his mom, who I still miss, when this is all over. I know I need to let this go, but now I have an idea of what he's been telling her--that he doesn't know what's up with me, but I never talk to him, he's trying to be nice through this process, but I'm not communicating--I am enraged all over again. I just want her to know I loved her son and could not have seen BD coming, despite what he might say. Many people close to us have told me that they absolutely saw love in the way he touched me and talked about me when we were together, and that he may have convinced himself it was never there or that there are no good memories, but that what they saw couldn't have been faked. I should trust that MIL recognized this love too, but... I am still wanting some kind of closure with her.

Wanting to respond in some way is tearing me up inside. I'm hoping I can meet with IC in the next few days, and that will help me get some of this out, because it doesn't feel healthy to hold it all in.


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Good Morning cardinal

Taking a wee break at work and seeing how you are doing.

When talking to H, it’s not so much holding it in as realizing the futility and determent of heated explaining or arguments. That is said first and foremost with you and your healing in mind. Any possible future relationship is down the road and is a bonus NOT the goal. You are still the most important person in this.

Let out your feelings appropriately. It is important. As is holding them back at certain times. It’s a balance. And you know feelings change. Don’t make decisions or act based solely or mostly upon feelings. Look to your values.

Something more specific for you. When talking to H - “I’m sorry you feel that way”.

Listen and validate. Do not engage or attempt to make him see reason. Why?

H is looking for a fight, a scapegoat. Don’t give it to him.

If you explain your side, and I know it’s correct by the way, H will use it against you. “See you never listen to me. That’s why we will never work out.” And so on. Besides MLCers have the attention span of a gnat, got to keep it short and simple.

I’m sorry you feel that way. This does a few things.

It is the truth. You are sorry he feels like he does.

It does sound a bit belittling, however realize all the understanding and compassion that those six words contain. You speak that from a place of compassion and truth not of flippancy.

Those six words acknowledge and yet take no blame nor do they place blame. (Very important) When/if H attacks say the statement and stick to your healthy boundaries.

Sometime you might want to add, just one time only (for you), how it’s his divorce. As an example: H - It’s so unfair how much I am going to lose in this divorce. C - I’m sorry you feel that way, but this is your divorce.

You don’t need to say more, he knows.

D

Last edited by DnJ; 07/16/20 04:02 PM.

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I would get a four subject notebook:
section one: questions for your lawyer

section two: Thoughts about what you want and what you will need to make that happen. Cross reference any questions back to section one with post it notes/color coordinated if that helps. You can categorize the colors: health insurance, alimony, house stuff, retirement, social security, etc.

section three: a thorough and honest examination of your core values and beliefs, and how you want to feel when you look back on this chapter of your life. It is important to remember it is only a chapter in a much larger book.

section four: your dreams for the future

I was able to sleep from 3:30-5 then son was at it again. I was grateful to work on a major project in my yard to decompress.

I think i'm channeling this stuff, Cardinal, cuz it has that feel to it as I'm typing. Hope it helps. xoxoxo

PS the one that always kicks my @$$ without fail is "thank you for the lessons" are you fing kidding me? some of these lessons are brutal. ready for the lessons that I can get an easy A in ... anytime now, please.

Last edited by bttrfly; 07/16/20 06:47 PM.

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pps it's been 4-5 years since my mediation, and health insurance was a hot topic with no standard 'typical' way of handling that at that time. I'd ask a lawyer and def. negotiate that.


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Second what D says. Also - don't fall down the rabbit hole of thinking if only I had done this or that, he wouldn't be divorcing me. Most of the time we have little or no control over their actions - they are rewriting history and gnawing their leg off to get out of the "trap" (to escape their depression and/or other problems) and the temporary high he gets from his new infatuation will not be a permanent fix to his problems.

The income cap for an ACA subsidy is just over $49,000. I don't know what the divorce laws are like re: health insurance (and I think he might not be able to keep you on his employer-supplied insurance once you're officially divorced) but he does have to keep you on his insurance until then and that should be part of the order for temporary support from your lawyer.

I don't remember what your situation is re: debts and property.

As I remember, weren't you renting and not a lot of assets? What's the debt situation? What's the feasibility of getting a job that comes with health insurance? Are you a full ten years married yet? (You want to make sure it's the full ten because that qualifies you to get social security based on his spousal benefits if they are higher than your own).

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D, thank you for checking in on me. smile Yes, you're right--I have to remember the absolute futility of trying to make him see logic or anything other than what he is seeing and feeling right now. I'm having trouble accepting that even if I don't try to explain my side, he will find things to use against me anyway. Ex: I'm not communicating with him, or, see, I'm emotionless and that was always the problem. Like you said above, and like OwnIt told me early on, nothing I do will be right. I am d*mned if I do and d*mned if I don't. Again, my brain struggles to make sense of persistent questions: How can this person with whom I built a life suddenly think so little of me? Or maybe it's my heart that continues to struggle because my brain understands that it's about him and his need for justification.

bttrfly: notebook ordered to pick up later today. I really like your idea of different sections. I think I am a little nervous about maintaining a balance between trying to get a deal while H is in a good mood (though he already seemed a bit moodier this morning, so maybe that intention is beside the point) and knowing I can take the time I need to think about things at each step. I very much like the idea of working on my core values and being able to refer back to them in the same notebook whenever I need to. I keep coming back to fierce compassion, because I think the compassion needs strength, needs to be a compassion that refuses to be messed with, especially when it comes to fierce self-compassion. I will need to draw on that again and again when I doubt myself or get drawn into seeing myself the way H sees me right now. How do you understand the fierce component for yourself? And I totally understand if you don't have the energy right now to meditate on something like that here. Your words have already been so helpful to me. I am so sorry for the heartache you are going through with your son right now. I'm glad the yard project was there for you. I couldn't go back to sleep this morning, so I did what I do every morning, which is tend to things outside. I fed the cat and found the first dinnerplate dahlia I have grown waiting for me, petals almost shimmering in the early light.

kml: Thank you for reminding me not to fall down the rabbit hole. I have been falling back down the SSM rabbit hole and blaming myself as I try not to think of H with OW, and I know that is not helpful. I keep telling myself she is not going to magically fix his issues, even if it seems that way to him, or even from the outside for a while. I could see him again spending years in an R and then one day deciding he's not happy because he's staked his identity on that person, or spent all of his energy taking care of her and not himself. I know that too is not my problem. In a way, I feel like I've finally joined the club here, with the slightly delayed arrival of OW!

No property, no credit card debt for me, credit card debt for H (we don't have shared credit cards and so can't see each other's balances or records), and no shared debt in loans or anything. We were married 10 years in November, and the L I talked to in the past seemed to think the official date of separation could be something that would need to be nailed down. H expressed his official intention to file after the anniversary date, so I don't know if that'll be an issue for us or not. It is good to know I should ask in next consult about social security based on his benefits; the last L also said I would be entitled to a portion of his pension since we were married for 10 years.

I continue to look for and apply for jobs that would include health insurance as they come up. Everyone tells me that I need to have faith that the right job will come along. I'm trying to. As for the ACA subsidy, that's good to know too. I was looking at our state's ACA marketplace options, and they had a table showing income caps for premium assistance—it was something like 25k, which I would be over by a bit, especially because that was before taxes. Maybe that was for additional premium assistance. The quoted costs for middle of the road plans was something like 300-500 a month. I'll need to look into that again.

I so appreciate all of you checking in here and offering advice! I am bone-tired and overwhelmed, alternating between angry and too tired to be angry or sad, and it is some comfort to know you all have been through this.


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And, job, thank you also! I missed your post the first time because I was typing a reply. I fully expect him to think of an agreement as, Here is my agreement for you, and to get mad if I question anything or ask for something I know I am entitled to. I am going to need to find some additional strength to get through this part. I need everyone to keep reminding me not to let him mess with my mind! I am so tired after a year of keeping up PMA, taking care of the house and pets (which means I can't imagine how exhausted those of you with kids are!), looking for jobs, etc. and I also think the stress of living with an unpredictable, strange roommate is just catching up with me, so my defenses aren't as sharp as they could be. I am not feeling as strong as I'd like to feel. Hopefully I will get some sleep and some of that strength will return.


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The deal with social security is, that as long as you were married for 10 years, when the time comes to collect social security, you can choose whichever is the larger - SS based on your own earnings, or spousal SS (which is 50% of the his benefit or 75% if he's died). Also, if you were married for ten years, if he dies, you can collect a widow's benefit at age 60. So it's valuable to make sure you were married for ten years.

(My friend is widowed, and her husband was married twice before her. This doesn't affect her benefit - she and both previous wives - who were also married to him for ten years - all collect social security widows benefits based on his earnings. It's not reduced even if he marries again.)

Things you will want to ask the lawyer about:
1) His credit card debt. If this was mutual debt (used to buy things for both of you during the marriage) he might be able to hold you to paying half of it. If it's all debt that he incurred after you "split", or that he spent on OW, or you paid off a similar amount of "joint " debt on your card but he neglected to do so on yours, then you have a good case for him being responsible for all of that debt. The fact that you have separate cards would work in your favor I would think.

2) Alimony - usually for half the duration of the marriage, assuming there is a disparity between your income and his. This would be 5 years in your case. If you usually make as much as he does but are just temporarily unemployed this might be different.
3) Things to consider with the alimony:
If he dies before it's all paid, how are you protected? I carried (and paid for) a life insurance policy on my ex during the years he paid me alimony.

Consider a lump sum settlement. I actually wish I had been able to get a lump sum instead of the 10 years of alimony that I got, because with every check ex sent me he got more and more resentful and stuck me with every extra expense for our adult children just to get back at me (and ruined his relationships with the kids in the process). A lump sum is usually a bit less than what the total alimony would be (because it assumes you can invest and grow that money over the 5 years). That could make if attractive to him as it looks like less, but it also requires him to come up with a lump sum which he might not be able to do.Lump sum removes uncertainty (if he dies after you still have your money, and you don't have to worry abut late checks etc.). Lump sum might also allow you to make different choices about your future.

Tax consequences of alimony. The tax laws in the US have changed. Alimony is now taxable to him and not taxable income to you. Neither of you pay taxes on a lump sum distribution. Here's a simple mathematical model of how this might work out:
Let's say you receive alimony of 1,000 a month for five years. If his top tax bracket is 20%, he has to earn $1,250 to pay you that $1,000 (he pays the remaining $250 in taxes. You pay no taxes on that $1,000.
If, on the other hand, you negotiate a lump sum settlement: $1,000/mo x 5 years = $60,000. But remember, you can invest that money, so usually the lump sum is discounted. Let's say the assumption is that you could earn 4% above inflation by investing that money, the lump sum would be discounted to $50,000 but in five years you would have $60,000 if you left that invested. It might sound like taking the $1,000 a month payments would be better for you, especially since you have to use some of that money for living expenses. However, would having the lump sum enable you to make some other changes that would be useful? Down payment on a condo that would reduce your living expenses? Enable you to fund training or a vehicle that would allow you to earn more money? Even if he gives you $60,000 lump sum, he saves $15,000 in taxes (but loses maybe $5,000 in potential investment earnings).

Another alternative is to negotiate a bigger part of his retirement. If he can't come up with the cash but will give you an extra $50 or $60 K of his IRA or 401K, it doesn't help you in the short term but may set you up for a better retirement. (although there are ways to take money out of an ira before age 59 1/2 without tax penalty, it's complicated).

Otherwise, you just split those 50:50 and transfer yours into your own IRA to avoid tax consequences now.

If he has an actual pension, usually you really want to hold onto your share (which is divided by a procedure called QDRO, which will calculate how much was earned during the years you were married and split that in half roughly). It's better if it's the type that increases with inflation. My ex's does not so even though the initial benefit I get is generous, it decreases in value over time due to inflation. Usually you're better off if you hold onto your QDRO share rather than let him buy you out of the pension; as women often haven't built up enough retirement savings themselves.

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Originally Posted by cardinal
Again, my brain struggles to make sense of persistent questions: How can this person with whom I built a life suddenly think so little of me?

Because he is not the same person.

The shell looks like him. Inside...not so much.


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kml—this primer you've shared is very helpful! Thank you. I started feeling overwhelmed as I was thinking through all of it, but now I have a clearer idea of what I for sure need to discuss in more detail with the L and why, and that's what Ls are for, right? To help guide you in things like this. H's income is about 3x mine in normal circumstances.

D—yep, and I think that's why my heart wants to resist what's in front of me right now. Can't compute how what's on the inside has changed so drastically. It has started to sink in slowly over the past year, which is I guess a benefit of having had that time. I can look back and see how different he's become. There's no denying that on my end, but there was still the tiniest wish he would start moving in the other direction. I swear I could already detect a little moodiness in him today after he's been so cheerful and friendly this week. If I have learned anything living with him in the past year, it's that his anger might seem to lift, but it's always only temporary. He returns to it, and chooses a new thing to help him run.

So:I believe that if I love H I should let him go and that I should want him to be happy; I even told him I wanted him to be happy. Right now though? I don't feel that way. Right now I want his R to fail and I want him to have to face himself and realize all his patterns will repeat, because he hasn't worked through them or taken responsibility for them. Of course I want him to realize that I'm not 100% to blame for the M or his unhappiness. Is it still following your beliefs if you are feeling exactly the opposite? It seems a little disingenuous when I am feeling much less generous and much more angry internally, but can still say, H, I want you to be happy. I'm also feeling like I could never fully forgive him or trust him again. But since I know feelings do change, I am trying to leave my future self the option of being open to what else could happen with H. I'm trying not to say or do anything right now I would regret later. I am hoping that eventually my feelings will align more with my beliefs.

I'm going to post this little quote I saved from Cadet, because I need it right now:

Originally Posted by Cadet
This is actually forward movement in the tunnel as much as you may not like it.

The MLC'er needs to believe that the marriage is totally destroyed to progress in REPLAY.

So yes it would be better to embrace this rather than fight it.
I am not saying to not see a lawyer.
Most definitely go see one ASAP
Protect yourself as best as you can cause the
saying that things might get worse before they get better is always an axiom.

Yes you are going to be in PAIN, that is part of his fuel so he can keep moving and thinking that ESCAPE and AVOID is going to save him.
It wont.
But he must learn this on his own


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Hello cardinal

kml has much wisdom and her reasoning is sound. I’m glad her post is clearing up some ideas for you. You definitely got the right view. Let the L look into things a make suggestions, that’s their trade. You of course still have the final say.

Originally Posted by cardinal
Is it still following your beliefs if you are feeling exactly the opposite?

Yes.

When you make decisions and act based on values and thought and reason and logic. Your feelings don’t need to match. In fact for a good while they wont. Intellect and beliefs will influence your emotional self as you continue towards acceptance.

For me, now, my beliefs, thoughts, feelings, and therefore actions all move more or less in sync. It’s a pretty amazing outlook, especially when I consider what I used to feel like.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I'm also feeling like I could never fully forgive him or trust him again.

Feeling that way is understandable.

Don’t tie forgiveness to your feelings, it doesn’t work that way. Forgiveness doesn’t come from feeling better. Forgiveness comes from compassion and empathy, which comes from your values. Forgiveness frees your feelings.

Do also be careful tying forgiveness and trust. Those are separate items and values. I forgive XW. I don’t trust her.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I know feelings do change, I am trying to leave my future self the option of being open to what else could happen with H. I'm trying not to say or do anything right now I would regret later. I am hoping that eventually my feelings will align more with my beliefs.

Very good cardinal. Yes your feelings will change. And they will be influenced by, and align with, your beliefs and thoughts; keep a sharp mental sword.

I would like you to do something. Remove “try” from the above quote (could use “going” or other minor word changes). Read it that way. Say it aloud. It sounds different, yes? It sounds like a belief, a conviction. That is mental assertiveness and influence. That is one way to craft a belief.

I do get you want H to be happy and you wanting H’s relationship to fail. You can do both.

I do want XW’s relationship to explode and her to suffer and awaken to all that she did and the damage she caused. However, if, and I really mean this, if she cannot awaken I hope her and OM have a long and happy life together.

I’d rather she was back in the land of the real and could heal, but if that’s truly impossible I’d rather she have a good fantasy life than a horrible existence as a lost soul.

Of course I don’t choose her path. I only choose mine. I know and believe I’ve made good choices. Compassionate choices. I’m in a really good place, and share my path and lessons willingly.

You are doing great cardinal. Have faith.

D


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Okay, bear with me, because I know I am internalizing all of this slowly! I woke up thinking about what H said in his short I'm filing speech. Once I have some distance from these interactions, I can look at them in a way that is less influenced by the immediate feelings they summon in me. D, I know you said he was clearly projecting, clearly looking for me to get angry. I wish I were better at seeing and understanding all of this in the moment, when H is speaking. But in real time, it's like I'm still sucked in by the fact that this person looks like H but isn't him.

Anyway, so when he said I hadn't been communicating with him and that it seems like I'm afraid to ask him for anything, in the moment my mind jumped to taking what he said at face value and doubting myself--should I have been communicating in a different way? Did I do something wrong? I remember my doubt was also mixed with sharp anger and the feeling that I had done nothing wrong. I think the questioning is partly because I am now more apt to recognize defensiveness in myself than before BD, so I'm more apt to want to question my anger and whether or not I am actually at fault. I think this is a good thing, but maybe a bit dangerous in my interactions with H right now, because his default is blame and no matter what he's just not capable of taking any responsibility.

But today I thought, well, it's weird that he brought up communication out of nowhere and also not asking him for things. It came out like he was exposing something I'd been doing wrong, but if I think of it instead as something he was projecting, then it seems like he expected me to do all the work of communicating and D, or he was actually mad that I had stopped trying to start friendly conversations with him like I used to do in the fall. Maybe he was also upset that I don't rely on him for much of anything anymore--I never ask him for anything, because I know I can do it myself. He wants me to be dependent on him. It is easier for him to think of himself as a good guy when I am asking and he is giving, even if begrudgingly. The point is that whatever his logic was in bringing these things into the convo, he only knows how to frame it as a way to blame me for the failure of the M, and to justify that we could never work.

I know it's useless to try to figure out what he's thinking, but I did this as an exercise in reminding myself that his logic is warped, and it will be for the indefinite future. I need to be able to recognize when he's projecting and blaming and separate this from my tendency to assume blame or from my desire to argue and make him see it isn't true. I need to be able to recognize his projections in the moment so that I remain calm inwardly as well as outwardly and can say, I'm sorry you feel that way, and not default to frantically analyzing and questioning my past behavior or needing to defend it.

I recognize that if H does balk at whatever conditions I end up having for an agreement, he may accuse me of being demanding or trying to punish him, but really these are just financial realities of D and everything that follows now is a natural consequence of his decision to D. These are not consequences imposed by me, but flow from his decisions, which he is free to make.

And I know reconciliation isn't the goal, I know all of this is for me, but I do admit I have some anxiety about H getting more angry at me, more ugly, because that would seem to affect chances for R down the road (even though I can't know how I'd feel about that if it happened). Seem to effect being key, yes? Because 1) I am not responsible for how H decides to react, so I shouldn't worry about that; and 2) it does seem that this in itself is not a barrier to R. It's more just a reflection of MLC/WAS inner turmoil and not a reflection of me or, as he would have it, as proof of why our M never worked.

Let me know if my reasoning is off. I know I can come here for more objective views of our interactions when I am having trouble being objective, and that is invaluable. I was also just reading some of Grace's older threads and admiring how calm and confident she was when she was interviewing lawyers and making an initial offer to her H, and of course he said it was completely unreasonable. With time and work, I would like to (no "try to" here!) navigate the next stage like this. With fierce compassion, equanimity, integrity.

Originally Posted by DnJ
I do get you want H to be happy and you wanting H’s relationship to fail. You can do both.

I do want XW’s relationship to explode and her to suffer and awaken to all that she did and the damage she caused. However, if, and I really mean this, if she cannot awaken I hope her and OM have a long and happy life together.


Oh, man. I'm glad to hear I can do both. smile I'll have to have faith that someday I can say and mean that if he can't awaken, I hope he has a long and happy life with whoever else he is with. That I will be able to fully forgive for me. This morning I interacted with him in a neighborly manner and felt better than I did yesterday. But then I remembered he is in a new R, and a huge wave of all the feelings hit me so hard.


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I go through these same feelings Cardinal.

I also was quick to defend myself. I would also ruminate for days after an interaction questioning what I should have done differently, if it was all my fault, and how I was going to be punished.

Please be aware that your spouse plays on this. They don’t necessarily do this consciously so it isn’t deliberately being used to hurt you. But it is a dangerous dynamic in a lot of relationships which end up here.

You just need to stay strong, stable and compassionate. I think the crux of your issue is your spouse running from responsibility. So many MLCers are driven by this. IMHO, it is the deep-seated, underlying cause of these people in MLC who treat their loved ones despicably. But as DNJ says, separate the person from the behaviour.

My biggest mistake was spending three years trying to talk, reason, argue, and get MC in the hope that my wife would start to be an adult and own her choices, behaviour and outcomes of these.

It was all a waste of time. The only way someone really learns something is if they learn it for themselves.

Quote
because his default is blame and no matter what he's just not capable of taking any responsibility.


Bingo. This is the problem. This might change one day... but you haven’t and can’t do anything to make that happen.

Please stay strong. You’re doing great.

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It might not be possible to see things clearly while you are early in this journey and living with the MLCer. I couldn't.

But the problem was that I didn't trust the people on these boards. I thought I was different, and I thought my MLCer was different.

So let me give you a potentially surprising piece of advice -- don't try to understand anything. Just trust us as witnesses. Think of it as an experiment. We have no reason to lie to you and for whatever reason we are driven to try to prevent you from making the same mistakes. Really if you think about it, why do any of us care if a stranger goes through the pain we already went through, or makes the mistakes we made? Compassion is driving us, the opposite of the MLCer's narcissism.

Try to make a list of things you've been told to do here. A very simple list -- e.g., "No matter what H says, say, "I'm sorry you feel that way." Don't go through all the ways you have to change your response. Just have whatever response you want,on the inside or later, when H can't see you screaming into a pillow or a forest. But in front of him, imagine we are behind you shouting into your ear, "JUST SAY, 'I'M SORRY YOU FEEL THAT WAY,' AND WALK OUT OF THE ROOM CHEERFULLY AND GO FOR A WALK."

I think you are trying to fix yourself. You can't do that right now. Get him out of the house and you might be able to start. Right now just trust the old folks and do what we say. DnJ did everything right probably. But I didn't. Took me seven years. Now I get it.


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Wait for the Lord with courage.
Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
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Good Morning cardinal

You are internalizing at a fine pace. No worries. smile

Originally Posted by cardinal
I know reconciliation isn't the goal, I know all of this is for me, but I do admit I have some anxiety about H getting more angry at me, more ugly, because that would seem to affect chances for R down the road (even though I can't know how I'd feel about that if it happened). Seem to effect being key, yes? Because 1) I am not responsible for how H decides to react, so I shouldn't worry about that; and 2) it does seem that this in itself is not a barrier to R. It's more just a reflection of MLC/WAS inner turmoil and not a reflection of me or, as he would have it, as proof of why our M never worked.

Let me know if my reasoning is off.

Your reasons is good and sound. And I don’t mean just for the above paragraph. You are doing very good everywhere.

The anxiety that stirs up from the worry that H will get more angry and ugly is real. It’s ok.

Worry is like praying for something you don’t want. Let that go.

Indifference is key. Compassionate indifference.

With indifference you don’t get dragged into this emotion. You can care about H, while not being affected by his behaviour. In actuality it is you that is affecting you - H doesn’t have that much power. You gave it to him. Take it back.

Indifference allows compassion without you getting dragged down.

Originally Posted by Kind18
I also was quick to defend myself. I would also ruminate for days after an interaction questioning what I should have done differently, if it was all my fault, and how I was going to be punished.

I like what Kind said about this. (Hello kind)

We do blame ourselves. We take in the fault and then fear, and expect punishment; like it is somehow warranted or ordained. And, we unwittingly and unknowingly fulfill that irrational need for self punishment.

I also like what Gerda posted. (Looking back I probably did do things efficiently. smile )

Originally Posted by Gerda
But the problem was that I didn't trust the people on these boards. I thought I was different, and I thought my MLCer was different.

Trust is a difficult commodity to regain after such a betrayal as we all have suffered.

That is one thing, I did throw myself into this wholeheartedly. I put an incredible amount of faith and trust in the people here and their hard earned wisdom. That’s not following along blindly, it is however taking quite a bit on faith.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I was also just reading some of Grace's older threads and admiring how calm and confident she was when she was interviewing lawyers and making an initial offer to her H, and of course he said it was completely unreasonable. With time and work, I would like to (no "try to" here!) navigate the next stage like this. With fierce compassion, equanimity, integrity.

Yes, Grace’s journey is a good one as well. Calm and confident. It looks good on a person.

Do navigate the next stage with fierce compassion, equanimity, and integrity. Glad to see you’re not trying. smile Your doing!

D


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Kind, thank you for sharing your experience here too. I can certainly understand the desire to reason, argue, and talk with your spouse! Especially because the logic on their side seems to change so suddenly. Even though I have mostly resisted giving in to this desire over the past year, nothing has changed, so it really doesn't seem to matter what we do. How many times have I read it is their journey, and we can't influence it? I think I still had expectations that if I did everything mostly "right," it would at least diffuse the anger and blame.

Originally Posted by Gerda
It might not be possible to see things clearly while you are early in this journey and living with the MLCer. I couldn't. [...] So let me give you a potentially surprising piece of advice -- don't try to understand anything. Just trust us as witnesses.

Oh, Gerda, this helps. It made me realize I do think that I'm somewhat trying and failing all the time, and it is a little bit of a consolation to hear that maybe it is just not possible. Maybe I should just accept that for now. And I do trust you all here, and I am so constantly blown away by the compassion shown by strangers. Although you do feel like friends. Sometimes I think, wow, I can't even send all of you a thank you card. I can never thank you enough. But you have been similarly supported here on your journey, so I know you, and everyone who posts, really understands what a gift it is to have the compassionate witnesses here to help guide you.

Originally Posted by Gerda
But in front of him, imagine we are behind you shouting into your ear, "JUST SAY, 'I'M SORRY YOU FEEL THAT WAY,' AND WALK OUT OF THE ROOM CHEERFULLY AND GO FOR A WALK."

I will absolutely start picturing you all here so that I can say this. I do fear my concentration and composure may lapse and some point, and I will say one of the many angry things I've said in my head.

Originally Posted by DnJ
With indifference you don’t get dragged into this emotion. You can care about H, while not being affected by his behaviour. In actuality it is you that is affecting you - H doesn’t have that much power. You gave it to him. Take it back.


You know one reason I think I am giving him more and more power? I am increasingly doubting my perceptions, and I am doubting MLC. I am doubting the articles and people who say this is not about me, this is about him. I am doubting the behaviors that have to me seemed to be examples of self-medicating or MLC. Even finding OW now (or however long it's actually been going on--I suspect whoever she is, they've been friends in the past year) seems like it could be another form of self-medicating. I tell myself this, and I tell myself his behavior is not about me, that his anger is directed at me but I didn't cause it, but I don't fully trust my own perceptions or logic. I have been thinking if we had had a close-to-perfect M, then I would be able to believe this isn't about me. Instead I am still struggling not to shoulder all responsibility for the SSM, or for not realizing how unhappy he was underneath. And I think, what if he was truly unhappy all because of the SSM? What if his unhappiness does stem from me? How could he not be happier with OW and sex?

I was thinking back to the post-Thanksgiving blow-up. It was the first time I'd witnessed him spewing since BD, and I had been being nothing but kind and giving him space. I only scheduled the time to talk with him because he'd said he was moving forward with filing the week before and that he envisioned us working on an agreement on our own. He said we could talk more about it any time. He was so calm and almost like his old self when he said that. So I asked if we could talk at X time about how he saw us proceeding toward agreement. And then when X time came, before I could say anything, he just started yelling about how he didn't have time for this, he had new friends who appreciated him, he'd always done what I wanted him to do, he's not selfish but he has to look after himself now... blah blah blah. And I wasn't upset! I was calm. I said I'm sorry you feel that way. I almost felt vindicated, because it seemed to me a textbook example of MLC behavior. I was confident that this was not about me; it was about him. He'd just helped cement that for me.

So where did that confidence go? I think maybe it partly got worn down by the expectations I mention above--that if I continued to stay calm and disengaged after that, he would see that I wasn't the sole cause of his unhappiness. Maybe continuing to live with him eroded my confidence. To see, during his birthday spewing, that he was not only still angry but did not view me as an equal--that was a low I didn't see coming.


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Cardinal, I'm wondering if you can take a bit of a break from thinking about your H and being compassionate yet disengaged from him and what that looks like and where he is and revisiting your perceptions of his behavior and what happens next... it is a lot, a LOT, and I feel like you're getting pulled along in his wake right now and we need to figure out how to detach. I think it was BlueSea's thread where she talked about feeling like she was in a car going 100 mph and knew it was going to crash and someone said... you know what you have to do, right? GET OUT OF THE CAR.

Your sitch seems more slow motion, maybe like a boat and the water is deceptively calm but you're wondering what is under there. How do you build yourself your own boat with your own sails so you can get where you need to go under your own control? I know it is a process to go through and you won't get there any sooner than you can, so take the time that you need. But. How can we get your force field back?

On the SSM... I'm imploring you to forgive yourself for this. You did the best you could with the tools you had at the time. And there is no going back, anyway. I know know know how you feel about this and I'm trying not to go back there too, especially now when things are coming to a head and H is saying over and over and over it it wasn't for the SSM this never would have happened. But. His A is not my fault and your H's MLC is not your fault.

And... in terms of revisiting or doubting your perceptions of his behavior, is it MLC or not... these labels don't really matter. No diagnosis is going to spit out the perfect combination of do XYZ and he'll come out of it next month or year or whatever. He's not acting like your H. Even if he hasn't been spitting vitriol every day, he has the capacity and you know that. You've been tiptoeing around him in your own house for months while he blasts his records and smokes weed and talks on the phone loudly to his new "friends" and generally just acts like a spoiled teenager. Eew. You don't want or need that in your life. What are all the positives you envision in your life with H out of the picture? Like for me, I will get a puppy, I get a ton more space in the house with all his $hit out of here, I make decisions on my own without needing to confer or compromise. Vacation where I want to vacation, watch only TV I want to watch, sleep in without guilt. That's just off the top of my head. What about you?

(((Cardinal))) you can do this. The parent red-headed cardinals brought their new baby by yesterday afternoon. That sucker is LOUD! It is hilarious because it looks bigger than the parents, so fluffy, yet can't get its own birdseed so squawks until mom or dad brings it something and puts it right in its mouth. Can you be the baby cardinal for a minute? What do YOU want? I guarantee that baby is not thinking about anyone else or what they might think or what they thought in the past or will do in the future. You deserve to focus 100% on you for a while.


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Good Morning cardinal

I was happy to read your post this morning. Well, I’m happy to read your posts all the time. smile

This morning’s happiness was because of your self-doubt. This is a good thing! (Warning counterintuitive explanation come up)

We all doubt ourselves, especially at the beginning. Then we focus on us, start to see, the doubts lessen, and we move forward.

This round of self-doubting is different. This is proceeding a decision, a change, IMHO.

This is questioning your stance, your values, your beliefs. We challenge our beliefs to see if they will crumble. For what good are beliefs if they are not rock solid. They are beliefs after all.

You are “trying” to poke holes in your beliefs, in your explanation and narrative of life. This will lead to further strengthening and altering. Will bring up more hidden emotional issues, like SSM and your part in it. Work through it. Look, none of us are perfect! Believe me. smile However, XH was on his trajectory before you. Even though your feelings are questioning that.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I am increasingly doubting my perceptions, and I am doubting MLC. I am doubting the articles and people who say this is not about me, this is about him. I am doubting the behaviors that have to me seemed to be examples of self-medicating or MLC.

Yep. You bet. I did the same.

We rebel against this notion of MLC. Rebel against this explanation. Rebel against what is right in front of us. Why?

Any change goes through four stages. Six if you accurately include the maintenance stage, the good six months where the change or behaviour is maintained, and the termination stage which is where the change has become permanent so the end of the change journey.

Stages:

Precontemplation, the idea of wanting to change but no real plans to do so.

Contemplation, one is more seriously considering change and is open to feedback and information.

Preparation, one has a plan mostly organized, realizes the pros outweigh the cons, and is ready to take action. Has even taken some small steps.

Action, one has actually begun “doing” something different. Knowledge and self confidence grows. Those small steps make huge benefits in this stage. One’s momentum of change gets going. It is also here that feedback and support are critical. This is where so many questions arise.

Maintenance, is where one is actively pursuing their action for six months. Small missteps do not matter, it is the overall momentum forward that is key. It’s from this stage that relapse can happen. A variety of factors could derail someone - stress, not seeing forward progress, limited or no positive feedback or encouragement, and so on. Lapses and what stage they fall back into, depend on many factors and severity. An alcoholic having one drink would be a pretty big lapse. For most minor lapses one just enters action stage again, regains their confidence, gather encouragement, and renews their drive and momentum.

Termination (or adoption), is after a good time period of living this new and healthy change. After two years one is considered to have adopted or made permanent their change. The change process can be consider terminated. You are now living it, no long changing towards it.


Altering, strengthening, changing one’s beliefs is a pretty big thing. We are going to question it. We are going to challenge it. Which is questioning and challenging ourselves. (Hence the doubt)

And of course, people fight change, we rebel against it. We all push back a certain amount against the wisdom; it’s normal.

Most people in real life do not understand MLC. Never heard of it, or see it as the guy buying a shinny red Ferrari and getting a young buxom girl friend. Very few know the depth and darkness that is a mid life crisis. Even here in these forums there are many who question, dispel, or outright disbelieve MLC. It’s ok. What matters is what you believe.

MLC isn’t well studied and is devilishly hard to diagnose. And in my view usually is accompanied by other disorders, mental and/or personality issues. These are easier to see and therefore mask or hide the trauma lurking within. The person is in crisis, and lost within many many different change processes; such a tangled web. Lapsing, failing, running, etc... This is happening at mid life. They exhibit behaviour of a tumultuous troubled teen. If it sounds like a duck... well that’s for you to decide.

Which is where you are. A sort of crossroads. I’ve been here too.

Changing is a process. Changing one’s beliefs is a bigger process.

As I said, your questions are good news. Shows progress. Shows wisdom. You have sought and are seeking encouragement. I think you can see the lapse you have experienced. Stress and current events have played a part.

I encourage you to stay the path. Which, by the way, I fully would suspect you to do. You are that person after all. This is just questioning before another step along the path. Granted, this is a significant step/milestone.

Take your time. Ask and question all you want and need. When you are ready you will know.

Focus on you. Be that woman you want to be.

D


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Re: the SSM - don’t beat yourself up too much. I don’t remember the details of how yours got that way, but I do know a kind loving spouse who is meeting your needs is more likely to pursue marital counseling than an affair to remedy the problem.

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may and DnJ and kml, thank you. I can't believe it's been a week since this new announcement. I feel so different a week later. D, it's comforting to hear that you were once in the same place--questioning MLC, doubting yourself. I think I will have to do more work with IC to really forgive myself for role in SSM, but my friend was also saying love isn't just something that exists if the sex is plentiful--that's not what the vows are. Love means working through these things with compassion on both sides. M isn't just all the good, as Wayfarer was writing in her post. It's the bad too. The idea is to take it all together. And I do tend to think that because of H's separate issue of feeling like he's always lived his life for others, been controlled by others (especially me!), if this is part of MLC, this would've caught up with him at some point, SSM or not. SSM was just one item on his list of justifications for not working on M at BD, and I think it's yet another convenient justification for his running. It's the one that has stuck with me, because I could have put more effort into changing it... though it also would have required effort on his part, and, looking back, I can't even be sure he would have been willing to put in that effort on our own or with counseling even five years ago.

Originally Posted by DnJ
This round of self-doubting is different. This is proceeding a decision, a change, IMHO.

When I read your post, I was thinking, What beliefs am I challenging? What beliefs are in the process of changing or being reinforced? That I do believe something drastic has happened with H to lead him here, regardless of the positives and challenges of our M? That I might believe MLC, rather than fear that I am grasping at reasons for all of his changes so that I don't have to be the cause of them?

I talked to my IC on Sunday. It did help to hear her state that H has been numbing first with alcohol, then vaping, then new R; that is not in my imagination. A new R is like another kind of drug. He is going to continue to have R issues until he faces himself, no matter who he is with. And H is already seeming a little moody around me again.

I was thinking about how I want to proceed and trying to let go of fear of how H will react, which is (everyone who knows what's been going on in the last year seems to agree) probably not going to be great no matter what. I felt very clearly that I want to be amicable through all this and that I want to honor the R we had, even if H has erased that R and its history. I want mediation. Realizing that, I felt a little bit of peace. I think I was building myself a boat in that moment, may.

I do feel something changed between my last post full of self-doubt and this one, but I'm not sure what it is or if it's only temporary. I have felt stronger and calmer in the last few days, which is confusing to me, because I was sobbing in the bathroom at work on Saturday. Has it really sunk in that the man I knew is gone? This H's values and behavior are, yes, opposite of old H. He has the entitled attitude of a WAS and the, to me, bizarre behavior described in MLC. It really does feel now like I was married to one person and am now being divorced by another. I no longer feel much like there is an old H hiding inside that I could reach if only I knew the secret combination. I kind of feel like old H is packed away in a box somewhere, and it will be up to new H to dust off that box and look inside at some future point. I still hope he does.

Right now I am willing to try to begin discussing an agreement with H when I am ready--after receiving financial documents from him and first consulting with another L. I still doubt this will work, because his accusing me of not communicating with him for the past year is not a good sign that we will be able to communicate about money and decisions that will affect both our lives, but maybe I'll be happily proved wrong. I would rather go straight to mediation with a flat fee, which would save us the money of his filing and my responding, since it would all be wrapped into the mediation deal, but should I really spend more energy trying to convince H we will save money that way, or just let him file if he's going to without further comment?

If it is clear that we can't work things out without help, I will again state my preference for mediation. If he is still resistant to spending the money for that, I will say it's either that or I will need a L. Mediation seems the more amicable and reasonable path to me, as the law does make most of what we will have to discuss pretty straightforward. Either way, I need and am entitled to a professional to guide me through this, and I will not back down from that.

I plan to give H a list of documents I will need with a deadline of, say, two weeks. I will then bring these to a L to discuss in more detail so that I have an even more specific idea of what items need to be negotiated and what I am entitled to. Does this seem fair? Are there any other documents I should include in this list? So far I have:

--Past 18 months of statements from our savings account (I think he is going to balk at this, but I am still worried H has taken money out in the past year without my knowledge, since I don't have access to the account, so I don't just want the most recent statement)
--Past 2 years tax returns
--H's most recent pay stubs
--H's retirement/pension statement

I will also bring the budget I have been working on with estimated expenses and income--it's not looking good, as health and dental insurance on the open market are going to be a bigger expense than I was hoping. But I don't want to skimp on that in a pandemic! If I receive the $ in support I need from H, I will be barely making it most months, with no money leftover for clothes or fun stuff, but I will have savings to draw from if needed. I'm still trying to have faith that I will find a better full-time job sooner rather than later. Luckily I've been offered two classes at the local university this fall, so that extra income over three months should get me through the next year even if I don't find a better job... that's assuming my current job goes back to full-time soon, since I am still at reduced hours because of Covid. There are some uncertainties I just have to accept right now.

Gosh, I have more questions, but this is a good starting point, I think. I am trying to be the baby Cardinal, may!


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If your name is on the bank account too you should be able to go to the bank and arrange to have copies of the statements sent to you. If he has kept your joint savings in an account only in his name, that's a big red flag from the start.

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Also - did he do your taxes himself, or did he go to a tax preparer? If the second, you should also be able to get copies of the tax returns from them if H isn't producing them - after all, your name is on them too. If he did them himself with turbo tax he can easily email you the files.

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Incidentally - it's fairly unusual in these times for a wife to have no access to or knowledge of the finances in this way. Was he controlling in other ways too? Did he keep you from friends and family? This pattern is seen in financial abuse. Did you review your taxes before they were filed? Do you have some idea of what his income is? Did you know what was in the savings before the BD or was he secretive about that?

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Hi, kml. It is unusual, right? It all seems so strange to me now. I mean, I considered and consider myself a strong, independent woman! But I never gave the money too much thought during our M, because I trusted him 100%. We had a joint checking account, but the savings account (money market) was a gift from his father for our wedding, and we then put all of our wedding money into it, along with money we saved through the years, including some awards I'd gotten. I didn't realize that our joint savings account was in his name only. Nor did I realize the (older) cars we inherited from his mom while we were married were in his name only. He was definitely controlling with money, as in I would occasionally stress about how much more we could be saving, and sometimes I would suggest we sit down and make a budget, and he would always get a little short and tell me not to worry about it, because it just caused me to stress out. i.e. Just let him deal with it! He was always trying to protect me from stress in other ways too, which reinforced his habit of holding his feelings back, which, of course, he now resents. At the same time, he was never controlling about how much money I spent, and would always encourage me to spend money on myself, buy things I thought I needed, etc. We talked about big purchases before we made them, and we didn't take money out of our savings unless there was an unexpected expense we hadn't planned for.

He was a little controlling, I would say, about his stuff, where it was or should go in the house, but I was also particular about not just putting things anywhere. Not controlling in terms of family or friends.

Since BD, though, everything has become more secretive with him as he has become more and more teen-like. I think he needs even more to feel like he is in control as everything else in his life is out of control, even if he doesn't act like it is. He did our taxes a couple of weeks ago and let me know how much we owed, and I asked for a copy, but he hasn't given it to me yet. Then he wouldn't give me his username or password to log in to our HSA account so that I could submit a reimbursement--he said he would do it for me. Amount in savings? I have a general idea of what was there before BD, but I also recently caught a glimpse of a statement he printed off from last July when he first went to consult with a mediator, and there was a sizeable withdrawal that I don't remember discussing at the time. Another red flag, and a reason why I want to see the statements from the last 18 months. This is my savings account too, after all.

He was never this extreme during our M--he wouldn't have been weird about giving me the HSA login, for example. I know that balance because I can call and check. When I asked customer service about setting up my own login, they said the primary account holder (H) is the only one who has a login, so I should just get it from him. Going through all this, I've discovered a lot of stuff is still set up to deny access to the non-primary, or at least make it very hard for them to access it if they are suddenly on the outs with their partner.

I did our taxes online for a few years, and he's done them for the last several years, so, yes, he should be able to easily email me the files. I pretty much know what he makes at his current job, but he also receives tips from his bartending gig, along with wages. He has a Venmo account or something similar where his gig wages go; I will need to make sure any other accounts are in the financial disclosure form.

Sigh. This is probably more info than you asked for! But you see why it's very clear to my and everyone I've kept in the loop that we are at the least going to benefit from a neutral third party in the form of a mediator. It will surprise me if he is actually willing to negotiate with me about an agreement and doesn't just expect me to agree to whatever he offers.


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Originally Posted by Gerda
It might not be possible to see things clearly while you are early in this journey and living with the MLCer. I couldn't.


Darned near impossible in my experience. Gerda's on the money here.


Originally Posted by Gerda

But the problem was that I didn't trust the people on these boards. I thought I was different, and I thought my MLCer was different.


Yup. Been there, done that.. I trusted, to a point. But I was convinced that we could bust this D ...

Originally Posted by Gerda

So let me give you a potentially surprising piece of advice -- don't try to understand anything. Just trust us as witnesses.


She's right. 100%


Originally Posted by Gerda

I think you are trying to fix yourself. You can't do that right now. Get him out of the house and you might be able to start.


Oh Boy. Truer words were never spoken.. Pay attn Card, because Gerd's preaching it.

Originally Posted by Gerda
Right now just trust the old folks and do what we say. DnJ did everything right probably. But I didn't. Took me seven years. Now I get it.


Doesn't matter if we do everything right or not or some combo thereof - the MLCr's trip is their own, unique to them.


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A box full of darkness.
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Hello cardinal

Originally Posted by cardinal
Originally Posted by DnJ

This round of self-doubting is different. This is proceeding a decision, a change, IMHO.

When I read your post, I was thinking, What beliefs am I challenging? What beliefs are in the process of changing or being reinforced? That I do believe something drastic has happened with H to lead him here, regardless of the positives and challenges of our M? That I might believe MLC, rather than fear that I am grasping at reasons for all of his changes so that I don't have to be the cause of them?

Yes.

Looking back upon my path, I now see what I couldn’t see while looking forward and walking it. We challenge all our beliefs.

Remember BD? Remember how earth shattering MLC was? It was completely unknown and quite unbelievable in the truest sense of the word.

You have grown and learned lots about MLC. Seen the behaviour. Live and walked the path of the LBS. Chosen better instead of bitter. You’ve healed enough that you are questioning, challenging, and strengthening everything.

Challenging a belief, not necessarily changing the substance of the belief. Some will be altered. Most are going to become deep held values. Core beliefs. That’s the change. It’s you. Just look below:

Originally Posted by cardinal
I do feel something changed between my last post full of self-doubt and this one, but I'm not sure what it is or if it's only temporary. I have felt stronger and calmer in the last few days, which is confusing to me, because I was sobbing in the bathroom at work on Saturday. Has it really sunk in that the man I knew is gone? This H's values and behavior are, yes, opposite of old H. He has the entitled attitude of a WAS and the, to me, bizarre behavior described in MLC. It really does feel now like I was married to one person and am now being divorced by another. I no longer feel much like there is an old H hiding inside that I could reach if only I knew the secret combination. I kind of feel like old H is packed away in a box somewhere, and it will be up to new H to dust off that box and look inside at some future point. I still hope he does.

cardinal, this is the path to acceptance. Look at you. Such compassion. Such indifference. Both held and balanced, weirdly at first, yet completely suited for each other.

You are on the cusp of such peace.

D


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Well, I was feeling quite peaceful, but guess what happened (not surprising)--I asked for that list of documents yesterday, and today H came out swinging. So much vitriol. Because of the sexless marriage, I don't deserve anything. I never had a FT job, so he deserves the house and his pension. If I go after pension, he will get "mean," he will get a legal separation instead of a D so that he doesn't owe me anything (?), savings account has always been in his name, so I don't get that, etc. I think I failed a lot because I finally just said some things about the R and responded to things he said. We haven't had an R talk since last June, and I figured this would be some opportunity at closure that wouldn't come again.

He softened some in the middle and seemed to admit some responsibility, in that he realized he'd been lying to himself about being happy for so many years, and there is no way I could have known that was the truth of how he was feeling when he was also telling me he was happy and that he loved me. That was shortlived, though, back to blaming me for breaking his heart with SSM, etc. etc. I did say throughout that the law entitles me to certain things, but he didn't care, of course. He knows friends who don't have to give their partners anything.

Oh, and I asked him about savings, which he at times admitted I was entitled to and at times not, and he said that he's been taking out money to pay his credit card (joint expenses, he says), and he just stopped telling me because we weren't communicating anyway, and/or I would get stressed.

And then he ended restating that he won't leave the house and that if I demand too much, he will cut off my funding (I mentioned a temporary support order), and he would call the police to tell them I am driving a stolen car, because the title is in his name.

Guys, I am not taking on the blame for the M, but I am feeling like I have two options. Cave in, give him the house, and move back in with my parents across the country. Or spend any money I would be getting in settlement paying a L to figure out how much he owes me from savings account. There's no way a mediator would determine how much of the $ he's taken out in the last 18 months is actually joint expenses or not. He has had a much more extravagant lifestyle than me, especially the last year, so of course he didn't have enough money to pay joint expenses along with all his fun stuff.

I feel sick. I know I need a lawyer, but I feel like that's going to leave me with no money too. This talk did give me some closure relationship-wise, because he just seems like such an ugly person right now. I kind of do believe he was never happy and pushed down those feelings to his and my detriment. I think maybe he could've faked the love, even to himself. That's how far in denial about his feelings I think he is.

I ended with reiterating my need for documents, and he said he would need more than two weeks. I said give me a firm date, and he finally did--August 15. I was hoping to go see a L with those documents, but should I just try to get another consult as quickly as possible?


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Originally Posted by cardinal
I ended with reiterating my need for documents, and he said he would need more than two weeks. I said give me a firm date, and he finally did--August 15. I was hoping to go see a L with those documents, but should I just try to get another consult as quickly as possible?


Please don't wait and go see an L now. I don't know how it works where you are but here in the UK an initial consultation with an L is free. I can almost guarantee that he won't hand you the forms by the date given. in fact he will most likely forget what you agreed altogether, you know what these Midlife's memory is like. My H can't even remember conversations we had a few days earlier. It won't hurt to just find out for sure where it is you legally stand because what he thinks will happen is possibly not right anyway. My H was convinced when he filed that it would only take 7 months, we're almost 3 years in to the divorce process, and that everything would be split 50/50 and it's not. He's spoken to I don't know how many L to try and get a different answer and dragged me through months of mediation only for him to then pull the plug on that just as we were reaching a conclusion. Anything could happen and he could try anything so just take some time to find out where you stand. You have got this Cardinal. Hugs

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I am going to get an appointment with a lawyer as soon as I can. Thanks for the support, foxpop. No one does free consults around here unfortunately. I know he's going to be even angrier when I inevitably try to get him (or my L does) to pay for my legal services. From the consults I had previously, it's pretty cut and dry that I am entitled to half of savings, even if it was only in his name. He's even yelling about getting an annulment so he doesn't owe me anything. I'm pretty sure you can't do that after 10 years of M. The car is not in my name, but I am on the insurance as a driver, so even if he did call the police, I should be fine. I'm wondering if the L would consider any of the things he's said threats.


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Originally Posted by cardinal
I am going to get an appointment with a lawyer as soon as I can. Thanks for the support, foxpop. No one does free consults around here unfortunately. I know he's going to be even angrier when I inevitably try to get him (or my L does) to pay for my legal services. From the consults I had previously, it's pretty cut and dry that I am entitled to half of savings, even if it was only in his name. He's even yelling about getting an annulment so he doesn't owe me anything. I'm pretty sure you can't do that after 10 years of M. The car is not in my name, but I am on the insurance as a driver, so even if he did call the police, I should be fine. I'm wondering if the L would consider any of the things he's said threats.


When my H was going through what some call monster phase he would make all kinds of threats and they were really scary. Most of his threats were never carried out thankfully but you're right to be cautious because when they are like this it is hard to know what they will and won't go through with. From what i have read on this board I don't think he can get an annulment but I'm sure someone on here who is more familiar with your laws will be able to clarify for you. One of my friends who used to work at a law firm advised me when H was at his worse to record all of our phone conversations and keep all of his texts as evidence of any unreasonable behaviour. You can get free apps for this. Might be something worth looking into just in case.

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Do not discuss anything with your H!!!

Everything he is saying is a lie.

The default in a divorce in most places is an even split of everything you had until the date of filing. The only point of going to court is if one side (or both) have a reason to get more than 50-50.

Do not get into any conversation about any of this with an irrational person.

Do not discuss your relationship or what you deserve or what he deserves and do not think about that. Anything you say he will think is about you or coming from you.

Do not move back in with your parents. If you can't stand being inside with him, make yourself a she shed?

Go watch AOC's speech in Congress from yesterday and stand up for yourself.

But do make a list of what you are willing to take as a bottom line and how much money you are willing to lose to get that.

Don't lose your dignity. Don't sink to his level. But don't believe lies or engage them. Don't tell him the secrets of your heart or how he hurt you. Tell us or a journal or a friend or a tree or God, if you have faith. (Or even if you don't!)

I would suggest inviting him to mediation. It's much cheaper.

Mediation doesn't work very well with an irrational person. But it's worth a try. It might at least educate him about what is a potential outcome of going thruugh the courts.

You could also file the original papers yourself while you look for a lawyer. The Southern Poverty Law Center has good resources and your local pro se office might too. You just need to make a formal request for all the documents you need. And if he won't give them, you get them by subpeona.

If you do not believe what I am saying, go read my story.

This is business, business only. Your love, your R, your potential for future reconciliation has nothing to do with this. And now is not the time for closure.The man you are talking to is not your H. He is an alien. Aliens can't give you closure. You can have closure or reconciliation when the real H is back. Right now the fake H wants a divorce and to split your stuff. So get the most equitable split you can while maintaining your dignity.

Your state has laws about equitable distribution. Follow those and don't engage in any talk about anything else. If he wants to do better than the laws in your state,he can make you an offer and you can consider it. Or you can make an offer. Threatening you or being verbally or financially abusive is not an offer. And the judge doesn't care if you were a bad wife or had a sexless marriage.They just want to know how you are going to split the stuff. Stay focused.

Everyone told me the same and I didn't believe it. I suffered far more than I had to, and I am still in h$ll of a never ending divorce.



Last edited by Gerda; 07/26/20 12:10 AM.

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Yes, foxpop, I'm pretty sure he would have had to get an annulment within a certain time frame. I have kept written notes on all of our conversations for the past year. My friends and family know what is going on and how he has blown up at me. I will ask a lawyer about recording things.

Right now I'm feeling disappointed that I let myself be drawn into this long conversation. I was so good about this for a whole year. I didn't follow Gerda's advice today. I don't know what to say, but it felt like I was in a fog the whole time. I couldn't get out of the hole I was digging. I know it just fueled his anger. No matter what, he always came back to blaming me 100%. At certain points I said, I don't think this is helpful for me to sit here and be attacked, but I got drawn in again somehow. I guess this was me trying to see if we could discuss an agreement, and it was a resounding no.

I even said when he kept insisting on no mediation: What worries me about trying to negotiate with you is that you are now just saying what you think I deserve and listing off everything I do not. He definitely baited me, and I took it, and what followed provided him just more confirmation of his justifications.

He must know there's no way the law would say it is acceptable for him to withdraw so much money from our account, even if my name was not on it, when it is clearly community property. He even admitted he knew it was bad before he started trying to justify it again.

I am worried about how much it's going to cost to look into that and determine what of the money he withdrew was for joint expenses and what was for his own purchases. I know it's a red flag, but in our M he never told me how much debt he had on his credit card. I hope this will some how work in my favor--that he said he was paying joint expenses, but never made me aware of the extent of these expenses.

He is going to be even angrier when I get a lawyer after I said I would try to try to negotiate with him, since he entered into this convo accusing me of trying to go after his pension. I just want the minimum I am entitled to, including the savings he used to pay his credit card. How do I handle this? Stop engaging completely? Say, "I'm sorry you feel that way," and leave the house? I hate having to leave the house when his attitude is that I shouldn't be here in the first place.


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Gerda--I just read your note! He doesn't want mediation. I am wondering now even if we had mediation, how it would help if he is unwilling to accept that I deserve what the law states. Is it because the mediator would be the one telling him what the courts would decide, and not me? Would this somehow make him act rationally? And would the mediator be able to address the money he has taken out of our savings? I prefer mediation, but I was thinking a lawyer would have to divide up what of the money he has taken should be mine.

Editing one more time to just say... I don't know how to force him to go to mediation. And telling him that lawyers are going to cost more doesn't sway him either, because he doesn't think he will have to pay for any of my attorney fees. I don't even know how the court makes another party pay logistically--I'm just going by what the lawyers I consulted with said.

Last edited by cardinal; 07/26/20 12:21 AM.

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Hello cardinal

You are on two paths. I’ve been encouraging you along the emotional path; time for a change. The business side needs attention - and now!!!

Find your indifference to H, and get a good grip on it. You can let your emotions out later, but when dealing with the business at hand stay focused and indifferent. Logical and reasoned, little emotion.

See a lawyer right a way!

Your H has shown his hand; and that’s not the worst of it, more is coming. MLCers feel entitled, you owe them, blah bah blah. They will use the legal system to its fullest for their gain. My XW threatened me with police action as well. Hahaha, oh they and their threats are so childish.

See a lawyer right away! (I said that twice because it’s that important)

Do not fall into that trap of- well I’ll just give him the house because after we separate and pay everything nothing will be left. BS!!! Do not do that!

You said yourself you don’t know how much money there is. He is lying to you.

Get a lawyer and let them deal with all of this. Tell them how H won’t give you the documents, or account access, etc. Tell them about all assets, that includes the car. It doesn’t matter who’s name it is in, everything is a marital asset; and you have a right to half of everything.

Let your L do all the investigating. They are very good at their job. They have much experience and this process is very thorough and efficient. Let your lawyer at H, and you just stand clear.

This is a business deal gone bad. That’s all. Be indifferent and be businesslike.

H is obviously angry, confused, and irrational. You cannot get through to him. Go dark or dim. Seriously. The guy is blaming you and threatening to leave you penniless. By the way, an annulment has some specific conditions that need to be met to invalidate the marriage. From what I know of your situation, none of them apply. One just can’t go get annulment of marriage; there must cause.

H is displaying very typical MLCer behaviour and threats. Let him. Seek legal counsel and financially protect yourself and get financial security.

H’s journey is all about him. He will use you and play you along. You don’t allow that - be businesslike.

None of this affects your other path. You are healing and finding your beliefs - for you.

cardinal, nothing you do will affect H or his path. And yet everything you do will. No one can predict how a MLCer will react to what we do. That is one reason why we don’t manipulate. Live your life for you. You be happy and find peace. Let the chips fall where they do.

H is on a runaway train, heading for a wreck. You best get off the train and get out of the way. You cannot stop this wreck. H cannot either. Sorry.

H will ramp up his projections and blaming. Do not fall prey to his poisonous words. He see the world through a lens of despair and depression. Don’t get dragged down in to that.

Stay strong my friend. This is just business and unfortunately a usual necessity for the LBS.

You got this.

D


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Originally Posted by cardinal
Is it because the mediator would be the one telling him what the courts would decide, and not me? Would this somehow make him act rationally?

No one can make a person act rationally.

My XW was quite irrational and sped through her divorce, much against the advice of her lawyer. He actually made her see two financial planners and a doctor and sign a waiver that she was acting against his advice. She still went ahead with the speedy separation.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I don't know how to force him to go to mediation. And telling him that lawyers are going to cost more doesn't sway him either, because he doesn't think he will have to pay for any of my attorney fees.

You cannot force a MLCer to do anything. Apply force, and they will come out swinging.

And you cannot reason with them. These are desperate people and desperate people do desperate things. You trying to reason with H will be seen as a threat and he will push back.

For right now, let your L gather the information. You’re going to need to at some point. You cannot trust H anyhow, he will try to hide stuff.

Then, with the full picture, you will know. The probable spilt and allowances for you. It is at this time you can negotiate, not until. Do not negotiate with H until you have all the facts.

D


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He’s just blowing smoke up your behind. Get a lawyer. Get a temporary support order.

How much in money and assets are we talking about here? Rough estimate? How much equity in the house? How much was there in savings? How much will he get with his pension and how far off is that?

Frankly the fact that he never put your name on the savings account even though he put your funds into it too is a HUGE red flag.

But looking at the total financial picture can give you a better idea of what’s worth fighting and what isn’t. If there’s $100k in house equity you need to fight for that; if it’s only worth 10k over what you I’m paid for it it may not be worth the fight. Did he spend $5k in savings to pay off his credit cards or $50 k? Is his pension worth $600 a month or $6,000?

Don’t let him gaslight you, just tell him you’re not asking for anything the law doesn’t say is yours.

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Cardinal, yes to what everyone else had said.

Consult a lawyer. I didn’t have a free formal consultation with a L but did manage to get a few questions answered through email without paying.

Calculate the cost/benefit and see whether some things are worth fighting for.

Document your interaction with H. Make notes of what he’s said.

Communicate with H by email. Even if you two live under the same roof. For documentation. He’s spewing hate in your face and making threats, that’s harder to record. But in email there’s proof.

Like Gerda said, watch AOC’s speech!! Absolutely gold.

Finally, keep walking the path of compassion and kindness. Do not let him drag you down to his level. You will rise above it. I know things are difficult, I’m in the same boat as you. In the end I would like to look back and know that I did all the right things regardless of how low my H has become.


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I want to reply to all of you but just quickly wanted to reply to kml.

We had roughly 27k in savings last July, a month after BD. In that month, from the one statement I saw, he had removed about 8k. Let's say 2k of that was for both of our car repairs. Now he's telling me there's 15k left. I suppose there might be a time when I say it would be better to just divide that 15k that's left 50-50, as trying to figure out where the other 12k went would cost as much as the half I would be getting of it--does that make sense?

House is rental. I am on unemployment and working reduced hours at my job right now, while he has a guaranteed job and additional gig income. I feel that it is way more of a hardship on me to have to suddenly leave my house, when the rent is below the current market and anything else I could find. Even before the pandemic, the two Ls I spoke too agreed that it made sense for me to stay in the house. Of course H thinks I deserve nothing, so I'm not sure, now that he's backtracked on his plan to move out, how that would be settled. He thinks if I don't leave the house, he will take the pets, and that's the offer he made after his tirade.

I have unemployment money on a state-provided debit card from the last three months that I'm hoping he won't be entitled to. I've been trying to save as much of it as I can to support myself on my own--to help pay for rent until I get my first paycheck from teaching gig in November and to pay for IC.

That's it for assets other than two older cars in his name, one which we drove out here in before we were married (I gave up my old car and we kept his instead); one which we were given after we married. He owns many tools that are probably worth something, and many, many expensive pocketknives (some of which he's acquired in the last year, so that, for instance, is not a joint expense he says he was using our savings money for!) that are definitely worth something.

Oh, and pension--I don't know what it is worth and would need to find that out from a lawyer. A good pension over ten years divided between both of us. I'm thinking it must be worth something, or he wouldn't be so angry about me "fighting him" for it.

I tried to tell him I only wanted what the law says I am entitled to, but of course that doesn't compute to him. He just repeats that I am being mean and fighting to take away what he worked so hard to earn.

Last edited by cardinal; 07/26/20 02:47 AM.

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When you are back to full time hours will you actually be making enough to live on? If not, would you be better off moving in with the folks and getting a job where you have free rent for a while?

If you keep the rental house can you get a roommate to help with expenses?

Definitely fight for your share Of the pension if it’s a good one - also is there a significant difference between your usual salary and his? If so, you may qualify for 5 years alimony.

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Hi, kml! Yes, when I am FT I will make enough to live on, barely, with his support. I will also have the extra income from my fall classes to get me through until I can get a better job. He makes about 3x or more what I do right now, so every lawyer has said I am eligible for support, but how much is negotiable. I do need the higher end of the support range, and I don’t know how realistic that is if he has this attitude. Moving in with my parents would mean leaving my life here in this state. Because I can make it on my own with support, even if barely, and because I am entitled to support, I don’t feel it’s fair for me to give all that up and start my life over right now. Maybe I would consider that in the future, but I don’t want to be forced to do it now just because he doesn’t want to give me support that I am entitled to. His attitude is that I don’t deserve it, and who cares if that means I have to move cross country to live with my parents. He feels he is entitled to a life here and I am not.

Plus, yes, if worse comes to worse and I haven’t been able to get a job with insurance and better pay in six months, I could look for a roommate. Otherwise I would be paying the same price for a one bedroom or even studio in some cases if I was forced out because of the way the current rental market is, with no opportunity for the roommate back-up plan.

The other plus to staying here is that there are more career opportunities for me as I make this transition to a FT position in a related field. My parents live in very small town.

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Hi Cardinal,

I'm so sorry this is all happening.

I can understand the desire not to get a L. it is a lot of $$ and given the amount of your assets it might not make a ton of sense, especially when you go the route of "send all the docs to my L." However, I think you are entitled to some degree of spousal support and also you should TOTALLY go after the pension, or at least don't take it off the table. Keep it there as a bargaining chip even if you decide you are OK to leave it be in exchange for 3-5 years of spousal support or something like that. Also I think in most states, the value of all his tools and pocket knives and other possessions, as long as they weren't gifts or inheritances and he didn't bring them into the M, are half yours. So if he takes all his pocketknives and tools and they're worth $10k total, you get $5k more of the cash.

Don't let him bully you into no mediation. Talk to a L and understand your rights in your state even if you have to pay for the hour or whatever. Totally worth it.

Know in your heart that what is he saying is BS. Total BS. Erase it. Let it roll off you like beads of water.

You got this.


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Good Morning cardinal

Do you have an estimate of how much a L would cost? Myself, I had no idea going in. The information I had was from rumour and those sensational stories that get passed around. My own lawyer dealings were a modest flat fee. I paid $4000 for my L and $1000 for her’s.

Maybe lawyers the US are higher. I hear it is. See rumours. Most products in the US are less expensive than in Canada, so why not lawyers. Point being don’t get ramped up with unfounded expectations.

Now, if H gets wound up, that is when you especially need a lawyer. Either way; H all amicable or fighting you tooth and nail; your mental and emotional health is important.

I left most everything up to my lawyer - the house deed, car ownership, overdraft, pension, homesteader rights, etc. Plus a bunch of other stuff I didn’t even existed. You do sign a lot of papers. smile

In truth, if I had to do all that paperwork now - and I’m stable and mentally a-ok now, I wasn’t back then - I’d have trouble. There is so much to do. And my divorce was rather easy. The legality, negotiating, and paperwork is something that should not be tackled by those involved. You are emotionally compromised and mistakes will be made.

I came through this mess rather efficiently, effectively, and regret-free. Not fighting W, keeping the business in the hands of the lawyers, is one of the things that helped. Sure, her and I (and the kids since she had to include them) talked and “negotiated”, and she changed her mind, changed the agreement seven times. That’s only what I know about, can probably times that by 100 for how many times she changed her mind without telling us. MLCers are confused!

Until the settlement is on paper and awaiting their signature - it’s all talk.

In the spirit of helpful disclosure, you had asked how you make a MLC do something. I said you cannot make them do anything, which is true. However, if they think feel it’s their idea, they might do it. Notice feel, not think.

My MLC wife wanted a quick divorce. She was driven by freedom, not money. She actually is quite a rare one, leaving her kids and wanting minimalistic finances. We were separated in 60 days after the night of BD, her dumping her kids, and moving in with OM. What a three hours that was!

During those 60 days she has a surgery that took her out of commission for 30 days. She was pretty anxious to get the separation finalized. Lawyers wisely slow down the process; even with that, my situation is a bit record setting. Speedy and a bit famous; I am a bit known, but she is well known in the lawyer circle.

It is hard to negotiate with an MLCer; they are so entitled. XW walked around our house like it was a shopping centre as she was deciding what she would take or not. It’s tough not to blow up in face of all that smugness. Remember play the long game, stay indifferent.

Of course I was a mess and just kept drinking my STFU smoothie. I listened to my L and followed his advice. I suspect he knew much better than I what he was doing. Ha, that’s a dumb statement - of course he knows better. He’s a lawyer!

Leverage. To negotiate you need to know what the other wants. MLCers drop lots of clues, listen carefully. XW wanted out. The way things happened my L crafted the agreement and sent the signed copy to her L. Her L would get the agreement to her in a few days. XW would then review. Oh the delays of the system. Lol. She felt she was the one holding up her freedom. She even told me her resentment to her L, to the financial planners, to the delays, and she didn’t want to wait. She felt the delay and she wanted to feel better.

If they feel something is their idea then they will look into it. XW hated the drives to the city an hour away to see her L. She hated coming back empty-handed. Hated her L for making her see another planner.

I didn’t create this leverage. Nor did I actually formally use it. But, I saw it play out. I listened to my lawyer, my best friend, my parents, my uncle who all said let her sign the papers, get this done - even though I felt differently. Yep, I assure you I was emotional compromised. Sure glad to have had good smart people in my corner, and that I actually listened.

By the way this is all before I found this place. I do know, I’d have felt better if I had these wise folks sharing their hard earned wisdom. I felt terrible about the agreement for a good long while. When I did find this place, and people who walked before me - again, I listened.

Three years. XW got what she wanted - all of it! No kids. No pension. No alimony. No house. No cars. No dogs. What?!? No way! I assure you, it’s true. Its such an odd situation.

Your situation is unfolding. It will most likely head off in a direction you can’t even guess at the moment. Listen to the compassionate wisdom of this place. Getting through this healed, regret-free, and forgiving is possible.

D


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Cardinal,

Please, please check out lawyers and find one as soon as you can. Do not allow him to manipulate you into doing something that isn't going to be good for you. Right now, it's all about him and how much he can get away w/in the way of making sure you get what you are entitled to.

Here's a thought. When you can, start purchasing gift cards and hide them away. You can use them at a later date if money gets tighter. There is no paper trail unless he discovers them.

New Thread:

Fierce compassion, equanimity, integrity

Last edited by job; 07/26/20 08:23 PM. Reason: added link to new thread

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