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Originally Posted by cardinal


I think all this is tied to my ongoing acceptance that no matter who he was in the past or could be in the future, he is not someone who is a partner to me right now.

Now, I’m going to go spend some time with plants before work. My happy place. Thank you both for your guidance!

By George, I think she's got it!!! xoxoxo


M 20+ T25+
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D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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Hi Cardinal,

Was it Insecure you were watching? We watched that episode together too, right around the end of when things were going well. it was a crazy intense episode. And what happens afterwards.

Reading what you just wrote made me think of how H might have been interpreting that same scene, thinking of it in terms of AP. Wow. We still haven't watched the last episodes of this season, we ended it on that one and haven't watched TV together since. It is so interesting how a TV show can stir so many emotions in those of us watching, from so many different places, with so many different expectations or visions of possible futures still out there.

Sorting through our own thoughts and feelings is such a challenging enterprise, especially with so many different things in the way before you can even get to them. For me, fear-- both for myself and for my children, which get put into different buckets; loss; grief; expectations; stubbornness; impatience. Loss of control. I always like visiting your thread because it feels like an oasis of calm, to me. I don't know if you perceive it that way, but it is how it feels to me. I imagine you in your garden or baking, serene, kind, compassionate. Doing your thing. I wish that for myself so much.

I am feeling lost the last few days. Not strong or calm or empowered. Just kind of beaten down. I will go out and work on my vegetable garden and try to channel some Cardinal. We have a red cardinal that has started coming by. I'll look for him.

xoxo


Me (46) H (42)
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Bttrfly, if only I could sit in that knowledge and acceptance rather than seemingly keep circling back around to it! Maybe it is just the shape of my journey right now. I was thinking how strange it is today that I can still experience brief feelings of disbelief at how night and day different everything is now—what I thought my marriage was, what it is now.

May—yes, it was Insecure! It made me think about how H had been building walls in the last few years too—being on his phone all the time, staying up and playing video games, etc. I didn’t have the R knowledge or perspective to think of it in that way then.

Kind of funny also to think that the last show we watched together shortly after BD was the Veronica Mars reboot. We still have one episode left in the season (I think H just started cutting communication and staying out with his friends), but I’ve never gone back to it. Oh, we did finish Big Little Lies together after BD also, and I was sobbing during the scene when Adam Scott recommits to his M. H and I used to watch Insecure together too. Sometimes I wonder: does he ever experience any recognition like that? Does literally anything ever summon a good memory of our R for him? Does he ever dream of me like I do of him? I would think sleep would be one place he would lose his ability to shut everything out, to compartmentalize, but maybe not.

Anyway, I just finished Insecure and the finale has a couple more scenes that hit me in a similar, though slightly less immediate and powerful way. I was imagining what you would think of them... I wish we could watch together!

Originally Posted by may22
For me, fear-- both for myself and for my children, which get put into different buckets; loss; grief; expectations; stubbornness; impatience. Loss of control.

Yes to all of that. I have had a hard time lately sorting through my feelings. I think maybe some of the boot him to the curb! attitude has gotten to me, because I felt a small weight lifted when bttrfly posted—like I had been unknowingly feeling pressure to be less kind, and I feel a bit less anxious about that today. Being kind is not telling him it is okay, it is just for me. But I find it so hard to balance neutral and neighborly and kind sometimes. Have to watch that I am not tiptoeing around, make sure I’m okay with finishing the last of the ice cream (which I did last week). smile

I’m glad this feels like an oasis of calm! It does not feel like that to me much of the time. More like a sea of doubt. Yours feels like a source of strength and intelligence and fierceness to me, even if you are also trying to sort through your feelings right now. I do think you will come to more balance and find some waves of centered-ness again.

I love that you have a cardinal visitor! I didn’t think we had them much out here. I hope you found some peace in your garden, may. (((May)))


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Originally Posted by cardinal
Bttrfly, if only I could sit in that knowledge and acceptance rather than seemingly keep circling back around to it! Maybe it is just the shape of my journey right now. I was thinking how strange it is today that I can still experience brief feelings of disbelief at how night and day different everything is now—what I thought my marriage was, what it is now.



Yes. This is normal. It will not always be like this. Right now, just go with the flow. The way to heal is to experience all the feelings as they arise, let them wash over you and don't try to stuff any of them. They will pass. I promise.


M 20+ T25+
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BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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Originally Posted by cardinal
Which leads me to this question: What does compassion for one’s (MLC) spouse look like, on a day-to-day, concrete basis? I am curious what it looks like when you are living with this spouse and just in general. Here or on my thread, I would love to hear examples from others.

Although, I do not have a live-in spouse I will give my views on some general ideas and ideals.

When considering compassion, words like nice, kind, cordial, friendly, etc. spring to mind rather quickly. One of the nicest things you can do for someone you love is to let them go. The expression “If you love something set it free”, is quite true.

It takes a bit to let go. To find your way to let go.

As for examples I’ve found a few things worked rather well for me.

Firstly realize what you are working towards. A compassionate view and life sees your spouse clearly and objectively. Doesn’t judge. And works towards forgiveness and acceptance. Craft those ideals and beliefs.

Wait for a time before reacting emotionally. At first, the 24 or 48 hour “rule” is to allow for detachment and for us to calm down and converse more from our intellect than our emotional side. As time progresses we gain control over ourselves and our emotions. Keeping our conversations kind and cordial works directly to that compassionate view we seek.

Seeing the person beyond their behaviour. How they act reflects upon them. How we act reflects upon us. Treat the MLCer’s behaviour as need. Boundaries when needed, ignoring when needed, realizing they lash out and are emotionally driven. Treat the crisis person with compassion and respect. They are making some bad choices due to overwhelming internal pressures and pain. Respect their choice; you need not agree with it (obviously). That respecting of someone leads understanding of their choices and to compassion for them.

Ignore them. Be indifferent. Focus upon your life. If one cannot emotionally step back from the MLCer, from their spouse, they will get dragged along. Whatever loving feelings the LBS has will be destroyed, eaten by the acid of the MLCer’s projections and justifications. Indifference gives you the perspective and objectivity to see and understand clearly. And if you understand someone, compassion usually follows. We, LBS, aren’t made of stone after all.

Physical actions influence our thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. Behaving compassionately will affect you and influence you. Some concrete actions: close the cupboard door gently, be considerate when driving (let that goof that waited until the last minute with no signal into your lane. smile I may have to work on that one. Lol), be authentic, step back when emotionally hijacked, say sorry (when you should), smile, help others, realize you just might make someone’s day with the smallest of your actions or words, make someone’s day, be compassionate to yourself (it all starts within), reward good behaviour and ignore poor behaviour, don’t sweat the small stuff, invite your live-in spouse along even if you suspect they won’t come, be a kind roommate, be respectful, stand up for yourself, be consistent, let go the outcome and be kind because it is for you. Live it.

Recently my D18 graduated high school. I hosted the grad pictures in my yard; the individual families and the group. XW was here, in my yard. In her “old” yard, amongst all her memories. I cannot say “I was indifferent and felt nothing”. No, that’s not it. I felt compassion for the woman. I was not hurt, or vengeful, or angry. It was a happy day which XW happened to be a part of. Yes, I do still love the woman, the mother of my children.

Realizing the path these lost souls are walking. How can one not be compassionate? It’s just not to let compassion be too unrestrained I find is key to letting go. Like all things, it’s a balance.

D


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Thank you, D, for sharing more of your thoughts on compassion here! I love your list, and it does make me realize I am on the right track:
Originally Posted by DnJ
Some concrete actions: close the cupboard door gently, be considerate when driving (let that goof that waited until the last minute with no signal into your lane. smile I may have to work on that one. Lol), be authentic, step back when emotionally hijacked, say sorry (when you should), smile, help others, realize you just might make someone’s day with the smallest of your actions or words, make someone’s day, be compassionate to yourself (it all starts within), reward good behaviour and ignore poor behaviour, don’t sweat the small stuff, invite your live-in spouse along even if you suspect they won’t come, be a kind roommate, be respectful, stand up for yourself, be consistent, let go the outcome and be kind because it is for you. Live it.

I've been thinking about them in the last few days, and one of the things I've come to feel is that I'm a pretty compassionate and empathetic person. I would say it's one of my strengths. I think I am doing pretty well being compassionate toward H in demeanor and action and can probably trust that my first impulse most of the time is to be kind. One of my fears is that because of this I won't be able to recognize, in the moment, when I need to set a boundary or stay true to a boundary. For a while after BD I was definitely walking on eggshells. But I think I have to trust I am getting better at finding that balance (when to ignore behavior, when to set boundary, how to be kind and live with boundaries, not mutually exclusive) and allow that it takes practice.

In thought, though, I do sometimes judge H. Every so often, like this morning, I feel that old pang of disappointment, hurt, and anger that he disregarded our vows and was able to (might say had to, in a more compassionate view) just be done with our M. I had a bad dream last night, which is probably influencing me this morning--H had filed without telling me, and I was again met with seemingly cold, unfeeling H, who seemed numb to this great loss that had happened and was happening in our lives. It was reliving a little of BD aftermath, I think, when he didn't seem to be grieving anything, as if he'd decided to break up with a girlfriend after a month and not completely end a 16+ year relationship and M. Also, curiously, H's mom sent him a box of high school yearbooks and photo albums. I saw them stacked on the floor. It made me sad--maybe because thinking of teenage H before he knew me and how we don't share those memories with each other anymore, or maybe because it made me think about how he was when I first met him in college. So I'm in a funk. These pangs happen less frequently than they used to, but it would seem I'm still working through letting go and respecting his decision in that sense.


Originally Posted by DnJ
Firstly realize what you are working towards. A compassionate view and life sees your spouse clearly and objectively. Doesn’t judge. And works towards forgiveness and acceptance. Craft those ideals and beliefs


I do realize I am working toward forgiveness and acceptance and seeing my spouse clearly and objectively, but not there. In this case I hope if I continue acting consciously with compassion and kindness, my subconscious mind will continue to work on letting go and forgiveness. My actions will also influence my thoughts.

Ah, yes, you talk about that too:
Originally Posted by DnJ
Physical actions influence our thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. Behaving compassionately will affect you and influence you.


I suppose having compassion for myself would be acknowledging that I have further to go with forgiveness and letting go, and telling myself it's okay I'm not 100% there yet. I do think I'm going in the right direction.

And now it's time to mow, though my yard is little, so I won't have as much time to contemplate as you driving over your acres. smile I think of your hours of cumulative yard work in part helping pave the way for this:
Originally Posted by "DnJ
XW was here, in my yard. In her “old” yard, amongst all her memories. I cannot say “I was indifferent and felt nothing”. No, that’s not it. I felt compassion for the woman. I was not hurt, or vengeful, or angry. It was a happy day which XW happened to be a part of. Yes, I do still love the woman, the mother of my children.


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Originally Posted by cardinal

One of my fears is that because of this I won't be able to recognize, in the moment, when I need to set a boundary or stay true to a boundary. For a while after BD I was definitely walking on eggshells. But I think I have to trust I am getting better at finding that balance (when to ignore behavior, when to set boundary, how to be kind and live with boundaries, not mutually exclusive) and allow that it takes practice.

Yes, you will get better at it! You will learn to put yourself first.

Originally Posted by cardinal
In thought, though, I do sometimes judge H. Every so often, like this morning, I feel that old pang of disappointment, hurt, and anger that he disregarded our vows and was able to (might say had to, in a more compassionate view) just be done with our M.

We’re only human. It is almost impossible to see things without judgement. But I believe that being self aware of our actions and thoughts (as you are) will help us to self-correct. This is where compassion helps one to think from a more loving perspective. Although regarding “separating the behavior from the person” part - I’m not sure about that. I think a person is defined by his or her actions. A person is defined by the many choices he or she makes. When I think about my H, my compassion mainly stems from our past history and how I know he is incredibly flawed. But at the same time I still hold him accountable for his sh1tty choices. Sort of like I have compassion for a criminal who probably had a difficult childhood and the situations in life led up to his bad choices, but he’s still gotta got to jail for his crimes. (If only society can put H away and force him to repent lol)

So I guess for me I still judge. H did XYZ, and gosh they were wrong. Some anger will rise up from that. But also accepting that I have to let the anger and resentment go ultimately for my own well-being.

I think you are a champion at being compassionate. Lots of virtual hugs to you!


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And just now, another example: H on the phone counseling a younger friend on her relationship problems, just like he used to do with friend-who-is-no-longer-his-friend. For years he counseled this friend and complained about the drama to me, said how dumb dating was now, how glad he was to be M to me, to be an adult and not “a kid,” how happy he was, etc (yet I was supposed to realize he was unhappy?).He says now to new friend he doesn’t understand guys, guys are stupid—a refrain of his. I want to roll my eyes. How can he presume to give any advice? I know he doesn’t have much self-awareness right now... or sometimes historically. Also: Who would take R advice from a guy who said he wanted a D yet had done nothing for a whole year? See, I’m still judging, still attached enough to let this exasperate me, if only temporarily. Still wanting to say, H, an adult R takes work! ... not the most kind thing. I sound a little resentful tonight, don’t I? I suppose I have to understand H probably gets much self-esteem from counseling others like this, from separating himself from “guys,” even if to me now this is a little hypocritical.

Sometimes to let go I have to let this out. Thanks for reminding me I am human, wooba. smile

I guess on separating behavior from person, I think of disagreeing with behavior but at the same time being able to have compassion for the person. I think you are doing that. In disagreeing, maybe there is some judgment involved. But also, as you say, working on letting go of any anger or resentment that comes with it.


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Good Morning cardinal (and wooba)

It took time for me to separate the person from the behaviour.

Do not mixed up compassion and forgiveness with absolution. Separating isn’t ignoring their morally bad behaviour; it’s defining the person by more than their actions.

Of course actions matter. And I believe our actions matter most - to us!

We all have good and evil; light and dark; within us. For with a twist of fate, it could have been me in MLC. I was fortunate and had great parents and a great upbringing. We are all fortunate. Hard to fairly judge someone else without walking their same path.

This is not the same as societal rules and laws. Those are laid out with punishments that would be forthcoming for violations. The laws we are speaking of are carved in stone. Judging requires wisdom well beyond that of man. And punishments similarly handed out with such wisdom.

I get it, we do judge, prejudge, others based upon their actions and past. It’s difficult to look at the big picture and realize just how big it really is, never mind actually trying to understand it. We only see a tiny slice of a person’s life, pain, love, experience, and so on; and then define them.

Look beyond. Look passed all that’s been written upon their once clean slate. See them. See their slate. See them and see what has been written so far. Perhaps you can see, and hope for, the possibility of something better being written upon their future. Would that change how we see them? Should it?

D


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Hi cardinal,
I just wanted to pop by to let you know I'm here, I'm watching and thinking of you often. And then I read all of DnJ's lovely words and had myself a good cry. The compassion and patience, the control D is speaking of is everything here. It's been everything for me. And cardinal my dear, you have all of this in you. You've been exercising all of that. I know you don't always feel it, but lady, let me tell you, you are forever falling off that horse and getting right back up with grace, strength and empathy. Lots and lots of well wishes.
xoxoxoxo

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