Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 10 11
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 549
Likes: 4
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 549
Likes: 4
Thread #1: 6 Months of MLC
Thread #2: Learning how to stand, hope, and keep moving
Thread #3: Searching for calm with shelter-in-place roommate
Quick recap: BD June 2019; M 10 years, T 16. Roommates.


With much gratitude for all the support from the board, I am happy to say I was able to find calm with my sometimes-seems-like-a-teenager roommate H during these long stay-at-home orders. I've spent time meditating and practicing mindfulness. I've found a lot of joy over the past two months, got slightly derailed by H's blowing up at me, and regrouped, got back on the calm and grateful path.

wooba, may, Gerda, I was so grateful for your posts, questions, and guidance at the end of my last thread. I've been reflecting quite a bit on our past relationship and how I have struggled to find and project compassionate indifference over the almost-year since BD.

Originally Posted by wooba
The brief & disinterested responses are totally counter-intuitive because we are trained to be caretakers and fixers. But just as you were trained to do the things you used to do before, you can train yourself with using these responses, and eventually it will become easier.

This really resonated with me, wooba. I think over the last couple of years of our M, when H seemed to be increasingly prone to anger (while usually saying he wasn't angry—and maybe whatever he was really feeling wasn't anger but it came out that way), I think I stepped up this role even more. I no longer worry about looking after his feelings or trying to soothe him if he is frustrated. Of course, I shouldn't have felt that was my responsibility before either, but it is part of being trained to be a caretaker, I think. It was also part of my feeling guilty for the SSM, feeling, without realizing it, that whatever anger he demonstrated must be my fault, because: SSM. Nope--he is responsible for his feelings and how he expresses them, works (or not) to understand them, and he was responsible for communicating with me.

Originally Posted by may22
Cardinal, I was wondering something. Whenever I read your posts (and this may be totally wrong, so please forgive me if I'm misinterpreting) I get the feeling that you are making yourself small, kind of, for him. You are always accommodating, kind, quiet.

[...]

Be YOU without any worries of what he'll think or how he'll feel or what he'll do. I'm not saying be a jerk, or be like him. Just don't be afraid to be yourself and to not think about him at all for awhile, if you can.Be YOU without any worries of what he'll think or how he'll feel or what he'll do. I'm not saying be a jerk, or be like him. Just don't be afraid to be yourself and to not think about him at all for awhile, if you can.


Originally Posted by Gerda
He won't see you as you during MLC, no matter how small or big you are. Only do things for you, to find yourself again.


Thank you for chiming in, Gerda! You have been through so much, and I so admire your strength and am always appreciative of your advice. It rings true that it is sometimes hard to know why you're doing anything when you're living with an MLCer. I think only in retrospect have I understood the ways I have been over-accommodating.

May, I think I made myself smaller for the last stretch of our M and definitely after BD. It is part of my ongoing work to try to identify when I am doing this and ask what do I want, not how might it affect him. It becomes ingrained and hard for me to recognize. On the one hand, I do want to fly under the radar sometimes--I'd rather him not notice me, not interact with me, want to just stay in my own little world. On the other, this is my house too, and I don't want to make myself invisible because I feel it's easier for him, you know?

I, of course, like your suggestion to eat all the ice cream. One thing I did: I bought mulch and spread it over the landscaped area of the yard I worked so hard to create a couple of years ago, and it was glorious. Nothing more beautiful than fresh-spread mulch. Well, it is one of many beautiful things.

Kindness for me and for him is being kind to myself and not giving him a pass on behavior that is not respectful. Kindness is respecting myself.

Originally Posted by may22
He goes as far as to invite someone over into your home during this pandemic and when you have the temerity to simply say it made you feel uncomfortable, he goes ballistic.


Right, and he framed it as me being controlling, and I know I wasn't trying to control him and was justified in sharing my concern, but... some part of me still feels like I'm exaggerating his behavior there, some part of me still has to fight against the way he tried to make me feel awful for even bringing it up! I'm still struggling a bit with feeling like I'm the only one experiencing this side of him in "real life." I think the more I get comfortable with indifference, the more I can be calm and strong and detached (like wooba!) no matter how he tries to project or blame me. Reading through the answer's to Sage4's question ("For those of you who had WAS’s return at some point, were they ever really contemptuous or mean to you about the things you said or boundaries you put up?") has been very helpful for me as well.

So: compassionate indifference is my focus for this thread. I remember DnJ writing about the feelings of love we have for our spouse being put away for the time being (of course, he phrases it much more eloquently), and that's where I'm at. I don't want to replace those feelings with anger. I want to be my generally kind and quiet self without shrinking and letting him walk all over me. Please do call me out on this, if you notice it. Like Gerda said, he won't see me as me right now anyway, no matter what I do.

It is too hot to bake this week! I made bread over the weekend and will have to plan my next bake. May, I'm glad you found yeast. I was so excited to find two bags of unbleached flour the other week.

Last edited by cardinal; 05/25/20 11:05 PM.

T: 16 M:10
BD 6/2019
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,644
Likes: 472
D
DnJ Online
Member
Online
Member
D
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,644
Likes: 472
Hello cardinal

I like your thread title.

Indifference creates a void where once our love filled. The love is not gone, just placed away for a while. This is a good path of healing; one can reach significant inner work when not distracted by our MLCer’s behaviours.

However, this absence of feelings allows other emotions to look larger than they really are. Do not make decisions based on emotions. Remember feelings are fleeting. Find your beliefs.

Temptations will loom and beckon, these are just temporary. Find yourself.

You are wise in realizing that anger could easily replace the now vacant love. Strive for compassion. Be gentle and kind.

That is the key. You deserve the gentle and kind life. Live it. Be gentle. Close the cupboard door gently smile. If you remember from previous posts of mine. Physical actions influence thoughts and feelings, which in turn influence beliefs. You want the kind and compassionate life and beliefs; you start with being kind and compassionate to you.

Fill that void with compassion, understanding, and forgiveness - for yourself.

Towards H: Do not give in to grudges, anger, and hatred. Vengeance inhibits progress on the road you seek. You have indifference, which allows you to not care (so much). It is easy to get lost here. Focus on you. Dig deep and be patient. You’ve got the gift of time, use it wisely.

Create, alter, and strengthen those beliefs you want. Discard those that do not serve you. Live and stand in the light.

Compassion extends from within you. You must have it within yourself. You must believe and live it.

Compassionate and indifference, at first seem like oil and water. They appear so dissimilar; caring and not caring?!? It’s ok, you can hold both at the same time. They aren’t as different as they first seem.

A lot happens once you get to this point. Compassion, empathy, forgiveness, freedom... It’s an incredible journey, with many blessings.

I really like your title. Your heading. This is a good path, IMHO. And it is very much for you.

DnJ


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 549
Likes: 4
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 549
Likes: 4
I am honored to have you set me on my path to exploring compassionate indifference with the first reply, DnJ! I do have a question to pose to everyone, but first a few thoughts in response on compassionate indifference:

Originally Posted by DnJ
Indifference creates a void where once our love filled. The love is not gone, just placed away for a while. This is a good path of healing; one can reach significant inner work when not distracted by our MLCer’s behaviours.

Many times after BD (and the WAS/MLCer's declaration that love is gone, not placed away for a while), I have thought how sad an idea it is that love can disappear. I don't think I realized until BD how seriously I took marriage. Love can and does change and feel different in long-term relationships. I didn't think it could actually be gone, because even in the absence of feeling love sometimes, I never doubted it was there. I believed love, I suppose. I lived it by letting go of resentments and accepting flaws in my partner, because I knew I also had flaws. Everyone does—I believe there is no perfect match, no effortless partnership. What is impatience in one partner could be some other less desirable quality in another.

That moment wooba described—of really looking at her H and feeling no resentment or sadness or longing—I wonder about it. I haven't really looked at my H in a while. I glance, and it is a glance not at my H but at this new guy, and I don't usually feel angry or hurt when I glance at him. Still a little confused and surprised sometimes, maybe, if I look. Sometimes my mind wanders to good memories and I know I could call up love again if I really wanted to. I don't, though; I let the memories dissolve and redirect my attention. They can call up sadness as well as love.

Originally Posted by DnJ
That is the key. You deserve the gentle and kind life. Live it. Be gentle. Close the cupboard door gently smile.

DnJ, did I write about H getting frustrated at the cupboard? I swore I had, but now I can't find the reference in my older posts. One of the things I've always noticed about H (increasingly over the years) is that he is easily frustrated, and it sometimes manifests in what to me feels like anger. The other week, he was trying to find something in the cupboard. I could hear him throwing everything out of it onto the floor from the other room, cursing, etc. He didn't find what he was looking for. When I opened the cupboard hours later, it was in disarray. He'd shoved everything back in as forcefully as he'd thrown it out. I carefully removed everything again to find what I was now looking for (since the contents were all in a very different place) and discovered some glass he'd broken in the process of his earlier search. I sat on the floor and cleaned it up, found what I was looking for, put everything back, and softly closed the cupboard door. smile

I keep returning to these words from bttrfly as well (bttrfly, how are the chickens?):
Originally Posted by bttrfly
i guess my main thought today is this: is it really so very hard to be compassionate towards the person you made vows with? isn't that just an extension of the love you feel towards your spouse? underneath all the pain and anguish - in fact, if you didn't love, would this bother you at all? it wouldn't. your pain is in proportion to the love you feel for your spouse. dig deep. deeper. underneath it all i promise you is a bottomless well of compassion.

I hope it will get easier, or more natural, to maintain this perspective over time, because it makes a lot of sense. (Suddenly it doesn't seem like it will necessarily get easier.)

Here is my question, maybe not entirely unrelated: an old friend of mine who became more H's friend over the last many years has reached out to me, basically with an email just wanting to reconnect. Can I talk to her about what I'm going through with H? All she knows is probably what he's told others (he's been unhappy for a long time, we're getting a D). After BD last year she reached out to me and just said H had been really distant with her since everything started happening with us, i.e. BD.

Brief context: H kind of BD'ed their friendship around the same time as our M, as he told me she never really appreciated him enough as a friend (hmm... some echoes of my not appreciating him enough there.) H told me at the beginning of this year they weren't really friends anymore. He'd already been hanging with his new friend group for months. Many times I've read that we should be careful speaking to friends—it will be hard enough for the WAS/MLCer to face what they've done, if they do, is one rationale. I also remember feeling lighter reading a comment wayfarer made once, to wooba, I think—basically that sometimes we need to talk to someone and can't always let our concern for the MLCer's outweigh our own needs. I feel this need to protect him if any future R would take place; at the same time, I think, if that's the kind of thing that would stop future R, or deter him, than he wouldn't be ready to reconcile anyway.

I don't know if talking to her about what I'm going through will make me feel worse (because I'll worry about her somehow seeing H and affecting the situation in some way) or better. But I don't feel I can be close with her again if I have to censor myself. I sometimes feel like I'm distancing myself from friends because I end up worrying that something I share will somehow affect the situation for the worse, now or later. That doesn't seem right either.


T: 16 M:10
BD 6/2019
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,913
Likes: 316
K
kml Offline
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,913
Likes: 316
Go ahead and talk to her if you feel you can use the outlet.

When my ex first cheated on me, I hid that info from my family, as I knew they would never forgive him. We reconciled and I was glad at the time that I hadn't disclosed it, but it also deprived me of the solace and advice of my family at that time. And he ended up leaving a few years later anyway.

Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,644
Likes: 472
D
DnJ Online
Member
Online
Member
D
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,644
Likes: 472
Hello cardinal

I agree with kml. Talk to her.

You are correct, how can you be close friends if you have to censor yourself. I told my friends what had happened at BD. Most stayed my friends, some did not. Three particular families sided with XW. Going so far as cutting the kids out of their lives as well as me.

In all the chaos, silver linings and blessing abound. One of those, is learning who is a true friend and will stand along side of you. People’s inner light does tend to shine through during this.

Start small with her and see where it goes. It is only an email to reconnect, and she may also be attempting to reconnect with H. Be cognizant of the possibility of her being a conduit of information to H, intentionally or unintentionally. This caution would be especially pertinent for legal and businesslike matters.

I’m sorry, you at times feel distance or isolated from your friends. It is good to consider what you are going to say and the potential affects. However, if you are following your values with having open honest discussions, and it costs a few friendships, perhaps those weren’t as valuable a friendship as you thought.

From one friend to another,

DnJ


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 586
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 586
You need your troops now more than ever. I've told a few more people in my circle about my sitch in the last few months. I also worry about the consequences of letting others know, mainly that my H is prideful and it will probably affect the likelihood of his return, but sometimes conversations with close friends just head that way and the timing seems right to divulge. I don't intentionally air it all out, but I feel like when the timing is right, and I feel safe to talk to that person, I let that reservation go. I can't hold on to H's "secret" forever.


BD: Sep 2019
D in progress
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 682
Likes: 30
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 682
Likes: 30
Here's the deal. I know one of the big rules around here is don't talk about it. Like our marriages falling to shambles are a fight club. And I believe that to a point, just due to the shame factor, that's a lot to come back from the bigger that circumference of shame is. I get it. But it's kind of unfair that not only are we to quietly wait them out, but we are supposed to do so alone. Granted I'm an outlier as it is because my H was so convinced he and OW were going to run off into the sunset he was aggressively not discrete about what he was doing. The handful of people I let in were already asking what was going on based on his social media alone. And then my behavior, completely dropping out of socializing entirely with or without H, and then going out constantly alone, and with friends I hadn't been out with in ages was kind of a tip. The fact is no one who knows you guys is unaware of the fact something is off. Yes it's probably better to share the details after the fact or not at all. But that also leaves room open for speculation. The world that we live in we are connected constantly. The idea of keeping these things hidden like a dirty little secret is practically impossible. And you, my friend,unlike me are dealing with a very, very long haul. A full blown MLC. You need people. You need a safe space. And you need your tribe. Like everything around here you need to do what best for you and your sitch. My personal take on this is this woman is a perfect candidate to bring into the fold. She is reaching out to you, not H. She clearly is already half way there knowing what's going on basically being dumped as a friend by H. She knows both of you well. She could be a great person for you to rely on, open up to, and connect with.

Last edited by wayfarer; 06/03/20 05:28 PM.
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 682
Likes: 30
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 682
Likes: 30
And just so you know. I'm always checking on you. I just don't have much to say other than I care, and I'm here cheering for you and crying with you.

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 28,295
Likes: 112
job Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 28,295
Likes: 112
Cardinal,

Since a "friend" is reaching out, then connect w/her. When she begins to ask questions, you can be honest about what is going on, but there is no reason that you need to tell her everything. I would test the waters w/her for a bit before I shared quite a bit w/her.

Everyone needs someone to talk to you and you have to be the one to decide who you are going to allow into your "inner" circle at this time. If you eventually feel safer w/her, then you can provide additional info.

Time will tell if she's just fishing for info or she truly is wanting to be there for you.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 10
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 10
Hi Cardinal,

On the friend.. I agree with the others. I'd connect. I have one IRL friend who knows everything and has been so incredibly helpful and healing. I like WF's fight club analogy... cracks me up... but it is true how isolating it can all be.

Originally Posted by Cardinal
I feel this need to protect him if any future R would take place; at the same time, I think, if that's the kind of thing that would stop future R, or deter him, than he wouldn't be ready to reconcile anyway.


Honestly? I wouldn't think about it as protecting HIM. He has done nothing to deserve your protection. I would think about it more along the lines of protecting YOURSELF, and to the degree it is an issue in the future, protecting yourselves together as a couple. When I read DR (and all the other literature, it seems people are all in alignment on this one), I took away more around choosing who you speak with carefully but also the importance of having someone to talk to. That it can be really difficult for a lot of people who love you to support you unconditionally as they hate to see you in pain, and may push you in a particular direction and/or have a hard time understanding why you aren't just dumping that creep. So I guess I'd be more thinking about if this friend is someone who can support you no matter what, rather than what your H may think about it now or in the future.

I also totally understand the feelings around censoring yourself. One of my very best friends is someone who cannot keep things to herself and I just can't tell her all that is going on. I found myself actually seeing her less because it was so hard to say yes things are fine! When they weren't. I ended up talking to her about some parts of all of this (she knows H well and we travel together as families so she'd also experienced some of the anger and resentment he was displaying in the past)-- I've told her I think H is in some level of MLC, talked about some of the things he had been saying and about the SSM, both on my side and then later on his. It was really helpful to be able to share at least that amount with her, without going into the full depth of the A. In your case, without an A, I feel like it would be a lot easier for friends to understand why you are choosing to stand and easier for them to support you.

Originally Posted by Cardinal
It's been more than a year and your H hasn't forgiven you; it's no surprise, then, that my H still seems super angry sometimes, and he's off in his own MLC world. When I wrote the apology letter last fall, I straight up apologized, without offering explanations or reasons, for my part in the SSM and the fact that I hadn't been able to make changes I needed to make. So, this probably isn't the right attitude, but part of me thinks... really? Why is it taking so long for him to forgive you? You can't change the past! I also realize this is my impatience, my wanting my H to forgive me, my feeling like I deserve forgiveness myself, even though I know that his granting it is beyond my control. I know reclaiming your sexuality has been really empowering for you regardless of your H, may, but in that process did you every struggle with blaming yourself or fully forgiving yourself? If so, was letting go of this a gradual process for you or did it just click one day?

I too have apologized unconditionally multiple times, starting last February. He seems to only remember the times where I talked more about what I was learning about the reasons why, which then became excuses.

I think there are two issues here-- one, I think the SSM and feeling unwanted/unloved was really damaging to him, far more I think than it would be to me, for instance. He has more of a need to feel desired than I do, while he comes off as totally confident and almost arrogant he's actually fairly insecure, he cares waaaay more about what other people think of him than I do. It has always puzzled me, the degree to which other people's opinions matter to him. So partially I think it is difficult for me to grasp just how much the SSM for all those years hurt him. (I actually think some of those feelings for him might have started back when we were first trying to get pregnant, when it was more difficult than we thought it would be and sex became less about desiring each other and more about getting pregnant. I think he felt to a certain degree like I didn't want him for himself but just to make a baby. And truthfully? That isn't totally off the mark.)

The other big issue is that he made the SSM his central platform for justifying his A, so forgiving me for that, accepting it could change-- all somehow makes what he did seem worse. That if he could see it all as an inevitable chain of events that couldn't be stopped and started with me not loving/wanting him, it was less his fault and his choice. It just happened and wouldn't have happened if not for the SSM. Forgiving me for this I think is actually inextricably linked to forgiving himself for the A. And over the past few days thinking on all this and getting input from others here, I think (again, I keep coming back to the same place... slow learner) that this is his journey, not mine, and I need to let go and let him go through this process himself.

On forgiving myself-- I did forgive myself, a long time ago. I am not one for regret. I know I did my best with the tools and knowledge I had at the time. I went to a couple of doctors who all said NBD, happens all the time. I read a lot about it (not anything to the extent I'm doing now... more like articles online) and talked to friends who were barely sleeping with their Hs too. I just didn't grasp the situation, and H didn't do a very good job of communicating it to me. (This is actually one of my beefs I haven't really brought up with him-- literally the only times we talked about it was in bed, when I'd say no, and he'd blow up and I'd get defensive. He thinks looking back he told me how bad it was over and over and I didn't listen... but to be honest, he didn't really tell me in a way I could hear.)

Of course, I wish things had gone differently in many ways, but I know there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. I can't go back in time. We're here now and I'm really mostly concerned with how to move forward (though I obviously still need patience here too.) So no, I didn't really struggle with self-forgiveness on this. I did the best I could at the time. Now I can do better.

And, I don't feel like I need his forgiveness for myself. I have forgiven myself and it doesn't matter to me all that much, personally, if he does too... I more want him to forgive me for the benefit of our R and M2.0. Does that make sense? I'm comfortable in sitting with what happened and what I did and that I'm sincerely sorry. I don't really need him to say it's OK to make me feel better. I want him to say it's OK so that he can let that go and we can be together without that huge pile of resentment sitting in between us.

The other thing that helps me is this-- I know myself at that time would NEVER have opened anything that even smelled of a self-help book. It would have embarrassed me to even think about opening one. It took the depths of that first BD, realizing my H meant it when he said ILYBINILWY, that D was on the table, for me to swallow my pride and start reading. So, the best I would have done in order to address the SSM was the only advice I knew at the time-- fake it til you make it. And I think I never would have come to the place I am today in terms of embracing my own sexuality. I'd probably be where I was before, not that into it but doing my wifely duty as infrequently as I could get away with but keeping my H "satisfied." So... I guess I also am looking at the silver lining to all of this, the things I've learned about myself that I wouldn't have if this crisis didn't happen. We may not have had an SSM if I'd taken it more seriously at the time, but I don't think I would have been all that fulfilled.

Does that help? I feel there are some areas that make our sitches hard to align, with the A being such a major part of mine. Do you think there are things your H is holding onto that you don't know about that may be driving some of his behavior and/or reluctance to move past the SSM and forgive you? I may just be projecting, but it might help explain some things.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 10 11

Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard