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I will be writing a guide to the LBS's who come after me in this thread, in a couple of weeks. For now, here is our place in Gerda's story, from "The Snow Queen." If you have not read this Hans Christian Andersen story, please do! I thought it was the complete guide for me (and you!) as LBS. Now I am not sure, at least for me, but more on that later.

"'Tis true little Kay is at the Snow Queen's, and finds everything there quite to his taste; and he thinks it the very best place in the world; but the reason of that is, he has a splinter of glass in his eye, and in his heart. These must be got out first; otherwise he will never go back to mankind, and the Snow Queen will retain her power over him."

"But can you give little Gerda nothing to take which will endue her with power over the whole?"

"I can give her no more power than what she has already. "Don't you see how great it is? Don't you see how men and animals are forced to serve her; how well she gets through the world barefooted? She must not hear of her power from us; that power lies in her heart, because she is a sweet and innocent child! If she cannot get to the Snow Queen by herself, and rid little Kay of the glass, we cannot help her. Two miles hence the garden of the Snow Queen begins; thither you may carry the little girl. Set her down by the large bush with red berries, standing in the snow; don't stay talking, but hasten back as fast as possible." And now the Finland woman placed little Gerda on the Reindeer's back, and off he ran with all imaginable speed.

Last edited by Gerda; 05/19/20 09:00 PM.

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And here is the conversation I had just started in my last thread

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2875182#Post2875182

a question posed to HaWho but also for all of you, dear readers --


I am thinking a lot about my past with my H, and I was thinking about your sitch too -- as once someone said something to you about how it seemed like your H had a psychotic break of some kind, in addition to MLC. I always thought this of mine too. But lately I am sifting a little bit through some of my past with my H because he is conducting such a horrifically vicious divorce (to the point that I wonder at times if he is capable of violence) that I started to wonder if there were seeds I missed along the way. For one thing, I started to think about how his obsession through MLC was over money and thinking I was hiding his money or controlling it, etc. but with no basis in reality. Looking back over the years, I realized I could not say that this seed wasn't there from our first days dating. I realized that when I met him, he was deeply in debt and had run up a huge debt on his mother's credit card to pay tuition. His father had just found out and he and his mom were in big trouble about it. It caused a real rift with his already estranged father -- and his wounds are all father-based. During MLC once I found the OW's credit card info scrawled in a notebook, he had already convinced her to pay for something -- this pattern of convincing people to help him out of his financial messes. He convinced his friend, the godfather of our kids, to PAY FOR HIS DIVORCE LAWYER!!!

Once we were a couple, I helped him pay off his debts -- not with money, but I mean by organizing payment schedules for him, etc. Early in our relationship, I remembered that I had paid off ALL my debts, including student loans, and I felt so free and so light. I was a teacher, not making much, and had gone to grad school that I had to pay for most of, but I worked a lot, and I was very frugal. And then the blur of my life with him began and it was a life of financial risk that got us into property ownership and businesses but that kept us in debt. He was always talking about what a whiz he was but looking back, I realized it was always me who made things happen, he had ideas but no facility with money. He would never do bill paying stuff with me, wouldn't help with taxes and would freak out whenever I tried to explain financial realities, even before MLC. Once MLC hit and he stopped working, started stealing money from our biz and our home, all financial reality checks would end with him screaming to sell our house, so I stopped telling him anything, and he began saying I was hiding and controlling all money, even if I did try to show him again and the house-selling-yelling would begin again. We own two properties and both mortgages are in my name only because his credit was so bad -- our rental place upstate doesn't even have him on the deed! I realized he never worked to get out of debt, let alone to buy me something I needed, like a coat, and was always pushing us to the next thing. This is just one example, and I don't want to believe the history rewriting either, but I can't deny this truth. And I have started to wonder if he was always NPD and that I just had my own wounds and didn't see it. I know he was different, looked different, acted different, but I have started to wonder if there was some mental illness all along, and it was so much like the mental illness in my house growing up that I somehow was drawn to it without realizing it was the same.

So I was wondering if you have had thoughts like these about your H and whatever his big issue was, that the seed was there all along, or was it a complete alien to whom you had known.

I don't mean to obsess over the past, but I am sifting in order to understand my own wounds and the choices I made, so I wanted to ask you about it, as our sitches have been so similar and even started around the same time.
[quote][/quote]

Last edited by Gerda; 05/19/20 09:03 PM.

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Gerda,

I posted some comments to on your thread about your last posting and I have brought them over to this one:

The description of what your h was like and what you did for him...well...that is very much what I experienced. Yes, there was mental illness on his mother's side of the family. As for his father, well...he would lie and steal from God if he could. He was a serial cheater and he used women for what he could get out of them, i.e., a place to live and would spend all of their money and once the money was gone...so was he.

My xh was always saying that he was not like his father and he didn't suffer from any type of mental illness. Well, when MLC hit, he became his father to the letter. I often suspected that my xh was mildly depressed, but could never put my finger on it as he hid his feelings well. He never reacted to things the way that most people would...he would always have this straight face and nothing seemed to faze him.

I chose to honor my marriage vows and I had accepted him for who he was...but when MLC hit, he became a totally different person, very selfish, entitled, liar, thief and a cheater. He attempted to bully me at every turn, he threatened to cut my phone service when my 81 year old father just had hip replacement surgery, he stole packages of items that I had ordered, he sent me threatening email/letters all of the time, etc. So, I do know what you have been and continue to go through. I tried so very hard to get the divorce wrapped up in a year, but he continued to nit pick and then one day, I finally told my lawyer to cease all work and that if he truly wanted this divorce (since he filed), he would finally get some b*lls and step up to the plate and get the divorce moving along. When his lawyer contacted mine about something, my lawyer advised her that we were no longer playing games and everything had ceased. It didn't take him long to get up off his duff and finalize it. Bottom line...he thought if he continued to prolong the proceedings, I would give him everything to make him go away...it didn't happen. So, yes, there was some NPD going on w/him.

I often think about my marriage and have asked myself many times over why I would have put up w/his behavior for 25 years. I have the type of personality that I call a spade a spade and generally do not put up with a lot of nonsense. It took me many years to remove those rose colored glasses, but they are off now...but I truly did not remove them until after the divorce.

Gerda, do not blame yourself for what you did over the years. You were being a dutiful wife, a person who was trying to help her husband, a wife that loved her husband and didn't realize that he had flaws. Sometimes, we choose not to see what is in front of us, but when we look in the rear view mirror, we can see a lot better what was.

Please, please do not beat yourself up. You are not alone in this. There are many of us who did whatever it took to help our spouses be successful and happy in our relationships.


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Gerda - I ALWAYS thought your H was a real weird guy the way he wrote to you - I know you thought that was just his "beautiful" way of writing but to me it always smacked of strangeness and insufferable self-importance.

I guess I relate in that I really didn't see my ex's narcissism until it was pointed out to me after our divorce. It had always been there, I was just so accommodating that it didn't really register until later.

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Gerda - it's coincidental that you be bringing this up right now as I was just asking my sisters this same question days ago. For the first time, I recently saw my ex with his wife (he married the ow). And as I watched him, the shock came over me that he did exactly what his father did (married his OW) which was what my ex vowed he never would repeat. Both he and his father even had an OW/wife with the same exact name that is not all that common! Quite Oedipus-like that he fulfilled the same destiny that he vowed he deplored.

My ex ignores me and cannot look me in the eye ever. On the rare times we cross paths he looks down at the ground while I look right at him.

Anyway, 5 1/2 years out from bomb drop, here is my lay of the land regarding your question. I do think the seeds were always there. He had a traumatic childhood, some of which he revealed and some of which he hid. He once told me his mother never loved him and I outright dismissed that believing that was not possible. Now, in hindsight I realize he was right, she does not really love him unconditionally and I was projecting by saying that was not possible. When I first told my MIL her son was having some sort of breakdown/MLC, without so much as hesitating she told me to leave him and said he had always been an angry person. She never once came to visit him since he moved away. She lived with her other son, part - time for a few years as she helped raise his son. She adored her first son and disregarded her second (my ex). The seeds were sown early.

I believe there were signs of emotional stunting from the get go. He was unsettled in himself, always had tremendous issues with aging and a fear of death. I do believe with time, things worsened for him on a psychological level. He became controlling, obsessed with things, paranoid and a full time conspiracy theorist. We could not even sleep with the upstairs windows open as he was convinced it was not safe. Just now, 2 1/2 years after he has moved out, my kids are comfortable living with windows in the house open and even the front door! Sad aside: the first night my son slept with the windows open here, the next morning he asked me what that funny noise was all night long. And I asked to describe it. It was crickets!

But, he lied and hid a lot of the trauma. In the height of his MLC, he divulged some of it. I would not be surprised if there is not much more. I fully expect it.

So, when I asked my sisters this same question, they both gave variations of this same answer. They said there was always something off there. One sister said they gave him the benefit of the doubt because they loved me. The other gave me what I call the "ice bucket over the head" answer. She said he was always lying about who he was but that none of it matters and does not change the present. She told me to limit the ruminating and count myself fortunate as I was still young and free of it all. I know that you know this. But I think our minds need to compartmentalize and order things to process and move on.

A side tangent story. One of my friend's mothers used to have Father Geoghan over a few times/month for dinner. This was one of the more notorious priests convicted of pedophilia. When she first learned of it she publicly defended him all the time. She did this for quite some time until it became all too clear that he was guilty. And then when she realized who he really was, it took her years to process. She ping ponged between anger that she let this person in her home, embarrassment that he tricked her, guilt that she housed him, etc. The point is she went through this whole same process of trying to understand how she missed the markers. In the end he was an abuser and she was just a trusting person. She didn't do anything wrong. (He never abused anyone in her family thank goodness.)

So, I think it's normal to try to make sense of it. While it does not change a darn thing, it's easy to go there. So long as we don't turn into Penelope weaving all day and unraveling all night, we will move forward.

People like this are strategic. They pick their partners. I believe they pick people who have a lot of bandwidth for dealing with difficult people (like them) and pick people who take their commitments seriously (so they will put up with their nonsense). I see that pattern here ALL.THE.TIME. Just my 2 cents.

The last thing I will say if that this was probably always going to happen. There was nothing that could stop it or alter its course. But, the gift of getting free of it is not just for ourselves. If we have kids, it gives us the chance to show a normal home whatever time our kids are with us. If we were with our spouses our kids would see dysfunction 100% of the time. There is tremendous power in this. And trust me, the kids see the contrast soon. Last summer my older son told me that my ex had a lot of issues and we had a very candid conversation where he recognized the stunting that happened to his dad. It is quite a contrast to my kids' childhoods.

Now these kids have some time to live with the windows and doors open.


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BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself
BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room"
8/15: H back to MBR
10/15: H back in dorm room
1/18: H files, now divorced
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Hawho, wow... you hit the nail on the head 100%. I can’t even say anything more than that.

Thank you for taking the time to so eloquently share that. Your h’s upbringing, your experience, the aftermath mirrors my experience too. This part particularly stings- “people like this are strategic. They pick their partners. I believe they pick people who have a lot of bandwidth for dealing with difficult people like them...” ugh. I’m still dealing with the aftermath of all this. I got in too deep with my ex and I shouldn’t have, but I believed I could tolerate him because I didn’t have as many neurosis and I’m still paying the price for that. I’m so mad at myself as a result. Ugh this guy completely and deliberately screwed me over the whole marriage. Ok... I’m going to stop the hijack on Gerda’s thread.....

Gerda, there’s good stuff here to digest. I hope it helps it bring clarity.

Last edited by Pax_luv; 05/20/20 05:35 AM.

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Job -- Thank you for this reply; it helped me a lot. Your experience sounds awful and similar to mine. Did your H ever have any clarity or remorse in all the time since his BD? Or did he just snap fully and never unsnap? What you said about your stepping away from the divorce really hit me and was very helpful as I prepared for my last conference -- the one scheduled for my 20th wedding anniversary. I prepared this offer of settlement and spent hours creating google drive files with all the documentation, etc. But in my mind I kept thinking, I don't have to do anything, it's his divorce. I always think I have to do something because there is so much yelling but truthfully I just have to keep saying no or ignoring them until we get to a trial. It's not like it could go worse!

Now we are in this crazy situation where everything is shut down and we are at the end of the marketing period I agreed to -- we are supposed to now have the place reappraised and I get right of first refusal at the appraisal price. The crazy thing is that his broker NEVER ACTUALLY LISTED THE HOUSE. He claimed he had a pocket deal and I realize now it was all fake!!! Even the court attorney told his L -- "The judge and I looked up the property several times and it was never listed. The stipulation said it had to be listed." His L huffed and puffed and finally said, "Well, we'll list it now." The court attorney also pointed out that the broker had no other listings in our area, only one listing way outside of our city. His L kept referring to the offer they had and then having to back down when I said, "Where is the actual offer with financials? I know it was fake!" The court attorney didn't say much but I think we all knew that his L was lying and that the whole thing had turned extremely shady. Meanwhile, they are ignoring the fact that we have no rentals and can't pay the mortgage and could face foreclosure at the end of the forbearance in July. It's like my H thinks Mommy will fix this too, and he can still have his money. It's so weird. The only thing I can think of is that his slimy broker is trying to ensure he gets a commission even if the house goes to a short sale. I am still getting 2-3 e-mails per day from his lawyer and shady broker insisting that they put the sign back on our building. I am not sure I ever posted about my son telling H he was ripping down the sign -- H wrote back this weird text saying he admired his rebel spirit and to rip the f-ker down and that he would love him "all the more" if he did. So S14 rips it down and then H and his L report to the court that I ripped it down. Then nothing for three months of quarantine and now the broker's contract is expired and they are trying to put the sign back up. Even the court attorney said, "Why do you care about a sign? There is no one on the street! That is not how you market a property!"

I said to court attorney -- "Are you saying that my children are going to be expected to go through a divorce, a pandemic and a move all in one year? I am not looking for a new place to live during a pandemic! This is insane!"

Anyway I get so scared when I see these endless notes from these vultures but your words helped me to see that I can do nothing at all so I keep reminding myself of that. I kept thinking I had to show I was being cooperative but now the stipulation we were following says that they have to have it appraised, and nothing else. I can do nothing and still be following the stipulation, and they would have to litigate an extension to the marketing. We are already referred to trial with a different judge, and our current judge is not going to like it if his L files more motions. Because I don't have to be silent anymore, I have been able to shift the narrative too.

I have held on to this place because it's my business, it's how I pay for my children's housing, and I love living here. But I made peace with losing it. But now it's even more out of our control. No one is going to buy it at the high price H thought he could get, and if I can't pay the mortgage, it will be sold at a ridiculously low price to avoid foreclosure. I was about to refinance and now I can't do that. I offered H a downpayment now and the rest in a year or two when rents returned to normal levels, and he said no. So all I can do is wait for trial.

I have not been sharing all these details because it's so endless and long and hard to explain each new hellish chapter. So I am leaving a lot out. But I am very anxious tonight because of all the e-mails endlessly and because D11 went to see H FOUR STATES AWAY. H got a free apartment in that state and claimed that because I couldn't pay his monthly ED advance, he had to move and that she had to go there twice a month. The court didn't like it but agreed that it was his right, so he picked her up today. she called to tell me that it was "paradise" there and so amazing and how much she loved it. I had just been reading an offer from H's lawyer that involved me paying him an extra million dollars to settle, and had been thinking about how he was producing fake documents to cheat me, just so many unethical, evil, shady behaviors, so much lying and hatred even on our 20th wedding anniversary unable to see that as a word from God, and I must say, it hurt to hear her so effusive about his place when he is hellbent on destroying my life and even my ability to provide for my kids since he refuses to help me at all. (I get no child support til he gets his share of the house, part of the bad stip I signed.) I didn't let her know but I ended up on here, typing out this endless long story that still left so much out just to get a little anxiety off my chest instead of doing my work so there it is.

Last edited by Gerda; 05/23/20 03:49 AM.

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Originally Posted by kml
Gerda - I ALWAYS thought your H was a real weird guy the way he wrote to you - I know you thought that was just his "beautiful" way of writing but to me it always smacked of strangeness and insufferable self-importance.

I guess I relate in that I really didn't see my ex's narcissism until it was pointed out to me after our divorce. It had always been there, I was just so accommodating that it didn't really register until later.


I never ever thought of his writing as beautiful, at least not anything I posted here. I am a writer and a writing teacher and spent many hours trying to edit his incomprehensible dissertation over many many years. Before MLC, he could at times write beautifully and he does write beautiful songs (he was a musician in the past). But there was always something in it to me that seemed overwrought, even before MLC, and once he went crazy, his writing was awful, painful, impossible to understand. It revealed his insanity.

I remember you told me many times in the early days that he had NPD or borderline or something and I brushed it off. I remember writing once that it seemed like my H did all the same things as everyone else's MLCer, and, in my early days, your two-by-fours were so painful that they sometimes chased me away. But as I wrote above, I am looking back now and wondering about all the things I explained away or chose to ignore, and his mental health seems to have been off from the earliest days. My mom had NPD, and my brother, and I think my father might have too, so I now think I was drawn to it because it was familiar. The truth is I saw you make similar statements to so many other posters that I thought it was just your shtik. Now I think you probably were seeing something I wasn't ready to see (though I still think you post that to a lot of people!).


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HaWho, there is so much here for me to unpack and reflect on that I am not even ready to answer you, but I just wanted to thank you for taking the time and giving me so much insight. I will be reading this many times in the days to come. We have so much in common it's incredible. My brother said something to me very similar to what your sister said but my brother has his own NPD so I didn't take it seriously. I keep asking other people who knew my H and they say there was something there but that he definitely completely changed and was unrecognizable, so the question is more if he was battling it and finally gave up or if he really changed. Anyway, I will read this over and post again. THANK YOU!

Likewise a big thanks to Pax -- and I think you need to read what Job said to me about not beating myself up! It's true, our commitment to our vows and to staying kind and loving could have been met with a transformation and really restored the marriages to what they were supposed to be. We had no way of knowing it wouldn't work or how long it would take, but we can't see it as years wasted. We stayed true to ourselves and finally had to let go.


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Gerda,

To answer your question. The only time that my xh showed any remorse and provided a half *ss apology was several days after my BIL was laid to rest. The only reason that he threw the apology out to me was because he wanted all of the photos from trips and family outings that we had taken, as well as some additional things from the home. Keep in mind, this request came 3 years after our divorce. Well, I can honestly say the b*tch came out in me and I was very, very frank w/him and advise him that he had gotten everything he wanted during the house walk thru 3 years earlier and that he need to go back and refer to his divorce decree because he wasn't getting anything else. The apology went out the window and he was cursing like a sailor in an email. He never gave up on the photos because he was still asking for them until 2013 and when he met his third live-in/wife, he's been quiet ever since.

He was the type of person that would never apologize unless he wanted something. He never appeared to feel guilty about anything. My situation was very much like yours and your h may never show any remorse about anything he has done and continues to do. It's called "entitlement". Like you, I ensured that the bills were paid on time, the house ran smoothly and he had it made by what others have told me. He drove a new vehicle, had nice clothes, traveled around the world, etc., and it was never enough. Whatever someone else had, he wanted it to and then 6 months later, he lost interest in whatever it was and I was stuck paying the bills on those things that he wanted.

Please do not ever feel like you are alone in this....I traveled a road very much like yours. I can assure you...once you are able to get out of the eye of the hurricane, life will be so much better. You'll be able to find peace and begin to save money once again and you will come to realize just what you actually dealt w/for all of those years. Right now, you are so very close to the eye of the hurricane and it's keeping you on edge. I pray that your situation can be resolved and soon.


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Actually, I usually tell people to be cautious about diagnosing their MLCer during MLC if they weren’t like that before, because MLCers can be temporarily so strange. But there are some who clearly had serious issues from the beginning and yours was definitely one.

There’s two kinds of WAS - previously good spouses having a bout of temporary insanity, who may return to their right minds at some time in the future, and those who have a serious character defect or personality disorder that allowed the cheating in the first place but was also evident in their prior behavior. My ex’s narcissism was at the root of his cheating, and is much clearer in the rear view mirror and in his ongoing treatment of our children.

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kml, for some reason I looked up your old posts. I had never read the early story of your sitch, and it was pretty heart breaking to see how it all began and how hopeful you were. And just so I could feel even sadder, I decided to look at my first thread, and I saw the post you had posted to me in the beginning and I just sat here at the table crying my head off because I just wonder if all those years ago, you were right. Thinking of who I was then, of all that I didn't understand about boundaries and about what was happening, all the hope I had...

Thinking of how there was no way for me to move and how in those days we owned two businesses together, etc., I don't know that I could have changed as much as I needed to change. I did ask my H to leave many times and he refused, I wish I had figured out a way to get him out earlier. I am positive God used everything that happened to me for the good and I am even hopeful about my future life, if I could just get this divorce done forever. But just now, thinking of myself back then, I just want to hug that girl with all my might, it just all seems so staggering that I am looking back at my own life and that all that happened to lead to what is happening now, a man who has completely descended into such a terrible destructive madness....

On a positive note -- my son is coming out of all the darkness, he is still troublesome in some ways but slowly getting so much better since my H left.

Originally Posted by kml
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I think I will back off from this forum again though, because every time I post there are so many replies telling me that I am a doormat or delusional and telling me to get a divorce, etc. I hear plenty of that from the people around me. Often the replies even seem to echo what I hear from my H, that our whole marriage was always bad and I should "face reality."


Gerda- I am NOT telling you to divorce him, but I AM telling you there may be something seriously wrong with him. Why would you not want to help him if the problem is actually drug addiction or bipolar disorder or a brain tumor? Why are you so unwilling to even look at or answer questions about this? And protecting your children from the harmful effects of his abusive behavior does not mean abandoning him or the marriage, but it may mean setting boundaries that might include your H leaving the house for a while if he can't behave. Being faithful to your marriage does NOT mean you have to tolerate abuse; in fact, it may be to your husband's benefit in the long run if you stop allowing him to treat you and your son this way.

Believe it or not, your husband is actually MORE likely to return to the marriage (and return as a better man) if you DON'T put up with his bad behavior. (And I'm not suggesting you do this in a negative way by accusing him of being like his father, you can do this in a firm but loving way, having healthy boundaries, just like you would with your child.)

As for your husband saying the marriage was always bad - that's just normal MLC nonsense, don't pay a moment's attention. You did not imagine your good years. They have to make up something to justify their behavior. Still, the one thing you CAN control at the present is you, and it's a good time to work on any improvements that you know you need to make.

I also recommend a very good Al Anon book called The Courage to Change. A friend gave it to me when I was going through my marital difficulties, and even though neither my husband nor I had any alcohol problems, the book was surprisingly helpful.

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God is there to support you, but God also wants you to take care of yourself and your children. He will be there to guide you, but he also wants you to do the necessary work to heal yourself. He's got your h in his hands and he will do what is necessary to heal him, but it's going to be on his time schedule and the seas may become very rough for your h along the way.


Job is so right here.

And please read carefully what people are saying to you, as you seem prone to misinterpret; my comment was that EITHER there is something seriously wrong with your H, OR he always had an abusive streak that you didn't see and that is now worse with MLC. If he truly was a wonderful spouse prior to his MLC, then I stand by my (experienced) medical opinion that there may be something beyond ordinary MLC going on with him. Does he show other signs of mania (staying up all night, impulsivity and rash decisions, grandiose ideas)? Does he have a family history of bipolar disorder, alcoholism, Huntington's disease, or any other neurodegenerative diseases? Does he drink or use drugs? Has he been put on any prescription medications that can cause behavior changes (antidepressants, Parkinson's drugs, etc?). Does he have a history of concussion or brain injury? Autoimmune disorders or hormone imbalances like thyroid disease? Exposure to toxins like heavy metals?

My ex had multiple concussions and probably a very mild lifelong form of bipolar disorder (which I myself did not recognize until it was too late). I did everything possible to save my marriage (and we reconciled for several very good years until his last MLC). He is in denial about his medical conditions and I feel badly that I was unable to help him, as I now see signs of subtle deterioration. (Thankfully he is married now to a nice young woman who I hope will care for him as he ages).

You can be a lighthouse for your husband, a beacon of hope and love and rationality, while still enforcing healthy boundaries and not allowing him to abuse you or the kids. Just as you can be an excellent loving mother while still making your children eat their vegetables and go to school.


Last edited by Gerda; 05/24/20 04:18 AM.

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Also -- back in those days, I never answered your question, I disappeared for a while. But here is my answer --

Other signs of mania -- he would pass out early (drunk) but get up at like 3 am, totally impulsive and rash decisions, EXTREMELY grandiose ideas.

Family history -- I think there is mental illness there, both parents but not diagnosed. (And definitely was for my parents and brother. My mom was diagnosed variously with bipolar, my brother with NPD, etc.) H and his father are both alcoholics. He used drugs in his teens and early 20's, in MLC abused sleeping pills and magnesium citrate.

He did have several concussions as a kid/teen.

Not sure about hormone imbalances like thyroid disease. Grew up in a communist country and then in parts of the US where he surely had exposure to toxins like heavy metals. Early in MLC I wondered if he had mercury poisoning. His abuse of magnesium citrate has been since 2013, 5-10 times the recommended dosage, and taken DAILY. Now he also vapes.

My D tells me he cries a lot and told her, "Sometimes you have to cry." I hate to hear that. I don't want to think he even has a heart anymore, it's too painful.


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I posted this in DnJ's thread but was thinking it should maybe go in mine for anyone who has thoughts.

Originally Posted by DnJ
D11 will get there too. Right now she is caught up in her new Disney Dad. Paradise, shinny, fun, ponies and unicorns. She is 11, it’s ok. She is a child, she is supposed to live somewhat in a make-believe world. However, one cannot eat sugar everyday; they will get sick of it. D11 will see through Dad’s hollow and insincere attempts to buy her love, respect, and friendship. She will rebel. Teenage years are coming.



I am not sure about this happening. D11 has a lot of learning disabilities and I am sometimes not sure she can understand what is really happening if H feeds her enough lies and manipulates her as he has done the past few years, once he started taking an interest in her.


Originally Posted by DnJ
I do remember feeling betrayed by D15 after BD. Perhaps it is a lot like your feelings towards D11. D15 and D11 didn’t and aren’t betraying us. It only feels that way.

You know me and my encouragement to rationalize and implement mental assertiveness. Look at D11’s behaviour as a good thing. D11 trusts you enough, loves you enough, has faith in you enough - to take you for granted a bit, ignore you a bit, while she reaches out towards her Dad. You are the strong and stable parent. D11 sees this, it shows in her behaviour.



I do agree with you, and I hope I can see things this way at least most of the time. BUT -- Here is the thing, my friend. I don't know if you see yourself as someone who was abused. But I know can look back at the last seven or more years and see that I was truly abused -- not physically, though that would make things much clearer in a way. Emotionally, verbally, financially and in some intimacy ways -- again, via mind games and withholding, not active physical abuse. I have a sort of PTSD from it now, and it's very real. I can stop and breathe and look at it and see that it is anxiety and that my fears are not real, but there is most definitely a physiological reaction that I have to manage. And yes, it is not just H but some things left over from older wounds, but definitely, seven years of H's spiral -- maybe more like nine years if you count the earlier intimations -- have not been good for Gerda's cortisol supply chain. And what I am trying to say is that I have had H's love, and it is toxic. It is a poison love. I do not want him to love D11 because I do not want her to drink poison. Having time off from her for the weekend is amazing for me on a selfish level. I can finally get some work done, have some head space, go sit outside a cafe (all still closed) by myself reading for work, not hear D and S fighting, etc. But I am terrified the whole time she is gone about what damage that man is inflicting on her deepest soul. The damage that could lead her into relationships like I had before H and with H, continuing the cycle.

And even as I say that and think it,there is still a part of me that is still Gerda making her way north to love the frozen glass shards off of Kay's heart. I still can't believe that H could have always been as evil as he seems to be now. I am not talking about trying to take his half, or more than his half, I am talking about actively doing extremely nefarious things, false documents, etc., to destroy my life. But in some weird way, I still hold out hope that someday he would wake up from this nightmare and be more like what I knew before, I just can't believe that he was carrying this level of darkness that whole time. I am just hoping that he will become a monk if that ever happens so that I never have to consider him being my H again. (I know that sounds rather crazy but that's the truth, just between you and me. : ) )

I know she is not me, she has her own journey, etc. But every mother's instinct I have, to keep her from drinking poison, I have to put aside and surrender because I have no choice. I can't protect her. I know, I can only be there for her when she returns, even though she usually hates me a little bit when she returns, and lately hates me more often, as H is always texting her, calling her, pulling on her.... But still, it is hard, as a mom who is so devoted to that vocation, it is very hard to surrender.


Originally Posted by DnJ
I don’t really know what to say regarding my non-wrestling. I kind of feel bad in not being able to reach you. I do remember my dark struggles. I had some horrible battles with my own thoughts and feelings and fears. I can speak about them, they hold no power over me anymore, they just aren’t current or alive, a memory.


It sounds nice to be detached on one level, but it also seems risky to be too detached lest you implode.... If I felt nothing at all in such a moment (re: DnJ's exW coming to his yard for an event) I would see that as disassociation, which was the tool I used to make it through my teen years during my mother's MLC and the total breakdown of my family that included violence, drugs, alcohol, etc., while brave Gerda disassociated, got straight A's and woke up ten years later.

Anyway, I would like to hear more about your dark days sometimes as a way of normalizing all of our dark days. But at minimum I do want to know, and I have asked you this before -- looking back now, from this point of your journey, can you still say that W turned into someone else, and not that you can now see that this was there all along? I have been looking back and seeing things more clearly about H. I think he was winning a battle over this part of him, and that is a good thing, but I no longer think this wasn't in him before. I think MLC ended his ability to battle it. So I do wonder about this for you, if you do not mind looking at the memory more directly.


Last edited by Gerda; 06/07/20 02:37 PM.

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P.S. I don't know if I ever wrote about this but I remember one time before BD, before I had faith, when I was asking H about his faith and what it meant for him and how he came by it. And I remember that he said, "You have no idea how badly I need it, how bad I am," or something like that. And I was like,"What? What do you mean? What did you do that was so bad?" I remember at the time thinking that he was suffering from some kind of misplaced Catholic guilt or from the wounds of his father making him feel like he was such a failure. Now I think that maybe he was in battle with this mental illness or this dark dark side of himself, and he knew it all along, but MLC was too great a pressure and he gave up.

He was also a man that I KNEW would never cheat, even after BD I remember thinking with relief that I wouldn't have to face that, whatever other flaws he had before and during MLC, but of course now I wonder if he was cheating before BD or even further back in the days of our marriage that seemed happy. We were literally always together so I don't think he could have. There was a time when S14 was a baby when we weren't getting along and H came to me all sad and asked if I had cheated on him and I was like...WHAAAA? How would I even have time?! I remember having this almost nice feeling of happiness that H cared if I would cheat on him!!! A sign of how low my self worth was already. Now I wonder if he thought of that, something I am incapable of and which I certainly never had time to do, because he was contemplating it even then, or had done it already. When he went crazy, he continued to accuse me of adultery or other lack of faithfulness just because of what a bad wife I was, without meaning I had actually been with another man.

I've been reflecting on the past to try to make meaning for my present and my future. I know that in some ways none of this matters but I am trying to figure out things about myself, what I did and didn't see, what I allowed, because of my own wounds and feelings of being unworthy of true love from a husband.

Last edited by Gerda; 06/07/20 05:38 PM.

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Gerda - some amount of rumination is normal. But, it’s important we set a hard stop timer on our visit to Rumination-ville so as not to get lost in the past.

Personally, I think anyone who dynamites his/her life in this fashion was always fighting some battle that would require him/her to find an affair partner to use to grow up in a proper fashion. Healthy people with strong coping skills don’t emotionally self detonate in this fashion. They bob and weave and cross those choppy waters. Look around you at all the people who are 55+ without this self induced chaos.

Let’s say all the markers were there for both of us and we missed every single one. Let’s work on forgiving ourselves; healing and ensuring our kids do have strong coping skills.

As we increase out time on the things we can impact we will grow stronger and we won’t repeat these mistakes.

You are strong.❤️


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Good Morning Gerda

I do hope this first morning of the weekend is smiling upon you. And you smile back. smile

Originally Posted by Gerda
I've been reflecting on the past to try to make meaning for my present and my future. I know that in some ways none of this matters but I am trying to figure out things about myself, what I did and didn't see, what I allowed, because of my own wounds and feelings of being unworthy of true love from a husband.

It is ok to wonder and reflect upon the past. As HaWho cautioned, do put a hard limit on walking down memory lane, lest you get lost.

It is good to find understanding of our past. To see the lessons, learnings, and discoveries; those are the wisdom that can provide direction and headings for us and our lives. However, it does not bring meaning to our present or future. Our actions do that. Our behaviours. We make our life, present and future, meaningful by walking the path.

“I've been reflecting on the past to try to make meaning for my present and my future.” Do it, don’t try it.

The past is the past. Immutable. Learn from it. Accept it. Forgive it. Do not dwell upon it. And forgive yourself. (((Gerda)))

Your past made you who you are - and I like you! Ok, it’s a bit more than like. Let’s say, I really like you.

Please do work upon your wounds. For you are worthy of love from a husband or man. This, I am very sure of! So, if you feel different, listen to DnJ. smile Your thoughts will influence your feelings and beliefs. I do hope you heal and get to see yourself like I see you.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I would like to hear more about your dark days sometimes as a way of normalizing all of our dark days.

Dark days are perfectly normal. We are on a path that is incredibly painful. Part of that path is grief and depression. Oh, that can be so very dark.

I was so lost in my darkness. I felt so alone, so unwanted, so unheard, so non-understood. Everything seems to focus inward into yourself. The blackness crushing and pushing, relentlessly, and without mercy.

I, for a time, even worried I was in a midlife crisis. I was in an emotional crisis, betrayed, discarded, and left for dead. But not a MLC. Just PTSD.

I’m not downplaying PTSD, that is a anxiety feedback loop that is just wild. But, MLC is worse. That is something I’ve held on to and considered with my XW. I’ve had a pretty big taste of what I suspect is like her torment; and I could see it and heal from it. One gets a lot of compassion walking in someone’s shoes.

Back to my shoes, and my path. My PTSD had some weird side affects and triggers. I could not stand to wear long sleeves. I just couldn’t. Within minutes I would be breathing hard, heart would be racing, I’d sweat. Man, that was strange.

I also needed silence. I couldn’t stand the TV, or music. For many months I didn’t watch any movies - and I love movies.

For many months I existed within my fight / flight / freeze response. Oh God that was horrible. Such an adrenaline overload. I was sleep deprived and on edge. My body and emotions were still under attack, yet the tiger had left literally month ago. Fight / flight / freeze is for short term survival not for long term. I was three months in full on zombie / survival mode.

I very literally collapsed into bed. I did not go to bed and find peaceful sleep. I found my bed and only escaped due to exhaustion. That would last for 90 minutes. Then the only routine that allowed me to get “back to sleep” - I’d get up, go the bathroom, get a drink, and return to my fitful slumber. Only to repeat this every 90 minutes - the half of the REM cycle. Months and months of not deep healing sleep. Oh, and the nightmares!

I’ve mentioned this before. Three months in, I found forgiveness for XW. A terrible nightmare. XW in h3ll. Suffering for her sins. I bolted awake and right there in the darkness of my bedroom, got out of bed, knelt on the floor and prayed for God to please forgive her. I begged Him to forgive her, for I realized I had. She doesn’t deserve to burn. Ha, such hubris-like feelings - me attempting to sway God. Lol.

I returned to bed and have sleep soundly, and fully, every night since. Every single night! Such is the power of light and forgiveness. Almost divine. I don’t bring that up much; it sounds too arrogant to me. However, I do believe and have been touched by something much greater than I. You once ask me what I meant about humbling myself. This is it. I’ve been blessed, heard the call, and seen the light. And who am I to be worthy of such bounty.

My darkest time was the month before this forgiving moment. Christmas Day. Again, I don’t speak of this very often. I do not glorify it, nor am I ashamed of it. That morning with all my kids and my parents, and all of us opening presents, I paused, went to the kitchen and considered ending things with a knife. The only thing that stop me was fear. That’s it. Fear. Seems funny, me such a proponent of letting go of fear and yet my very existence it owed to it.

I feared missing something vital and then suffering on the floor. I was far too deep in ceaseless pain. I hadn’t joined here, or found anyone who understood or had gone through such an event as what happened during Thanksgiving. It was dark times indeed. I felt alone. Even with everyone around opening presents - alone and non-understood. Depression is horrible.

I write, encourage, post, hopefully inspire, and provide some useful guidance and a beacon to others. I am just one voice among a chorus of survivors and their hard earned wisdom. I describe the path, as best I can, and to the best of my abilities. I found my way out of the darkness and I share it. I am following a light and a voice. I have much peace and serenity in my life.

DnJ


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Gerda -

My dear friend, just stopping by to let you know I'm thinking of you. Thinking about the past is o.k. so we can learn and understand, but fight hard to ensure it doesn't keep you there.

(((Gerda)))


You are strong, you are loved.

Grace


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DnJ, just found this post you wrote on Jun 13. I don't know how I missed it. It's a good one. I feel terrible that I didn't see it before when you took all that time to lay out your suffering in response to my request. And then you got nothing in reply!

I need to read it a few times before I write back.

But I already know from one read that it's just what I asked for. You gave me the very gift that was on my LBS registry! I know it was a lot for you to peer into your darkest moment past. I will swim around in the blackness with previous DnJ and write again soon. Sorry I missed it before!

I am at my cabin with my kids -- the one I fought for and now it's MINE. Have been renting it out monthly during Covid and so it's paying double its own mortgage every month! Tonight S15 and I (his bday just passed) took a walk pass the mountain views with rain clouds drifting low (he kept saying, "It looks like Lord of the Rings!") to a nearby pond and it was so magical in the dusk -- a million birds and frogs and bats and everyone singing and bellowing,louder than a city street. Seeing my boy transfixed by nature -- PRICELESS.

Last edited by Gerda; 07/01/20 03:31 AM.

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Gracie, thank you. I owe you a call but no phones up here, plus no privacy! XO XO and reading your latest with bated breath! Will try you soon.

Last edited by Gerda; 07/01/20 03:32 AM.

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Hello Gerda

Lord of the Rings is awesome!

S15 has very good taste. smile

Originally Posted by Gerda
I am at my cabin with my kids -- the one I fought for and now it's MINE. Have been renting it out monthly during Covid and so it's paying double its own mortgage every month!

That sounds like really good news.

The cabin is all your’s. Yay!

Love how son was transfixed. How wonderful for him and you.

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Gerda, thank you for the poems on my thread...it is nice to see people still sending love to others on here. I hope and pray that God will continue to lift you up on a daily basis.

Have a great July!!!


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(((Gerda)))

Enjoying reading your reflections and the posts they are prompting from others.


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Gerda, I have to say that in the last year or so you have made quite the transition. You seem so much stronger and much more confident than before. I know you are still going through some tough times, but I love seeing you take control and move forward. That confident self reliance "looks" good on you!

I hope your stay at the cabin was amazing! I too love Lord of the Rings smile

miss seeing your name across my screen (((Gerda)))

-Sam


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Oh my gosh, a stop by from maybe my four favorite guys in the whole world! All in a row?!!!

Gerda is astonished and can now go about her day with all those things sjohn just said look good on me.

It's funny you say that, sjohn (and I will stop by your thread soon wink ) -- I have even been looking at old photos of myself and learning a lot. I have never been confident about photos but looking at photos pre-H, I was quite the tough confident young thing. Looking at the line of photos from then until now -- and of course the many years of no photos since I was the one running the house and rearing the kids and H certainly didn't care about having a photo of me! and remembering how ugly I felt as the years went by (I mean in all ways, not just physically, but just sort of unappealing, in the way, repulsive physically and in many other ways) -- it is pretty amazing to realize how my view of the world and of men in particular (and in every context) was really very skewed by what I was experiencing, overlooking, etc.

I can see more clearly now how little I thought of myself. I knew I had various good qualities but it's still impossible for me to imagine a man wanting to be around me. Which is good because I am trying to avoid that. But I catch myself seeing couples in love and FEELING SORRY FOR THE MAN THAT HE HAS TO ACT LIKE HE FINDS HER ATTRACTIVE. I am talking about even when the woman is especially attractive, my city is full of those folks, but for any woman. I don't want to go too deeply into it, but suffice it to say, I am catching myself in a lot of very bizarre and dark ideas that I have taken for granted about relationships for about twenty years.

I realized something and keep repeating it to myself in trying to believe it --

My ability to love a man has nothing to do with his ability to love me.

This is confusing to me. I thought if I loved that much, it meant that I was loving the right person. Now I realize that it just meant I was full of love. Actually, I have not figured it out fully, but that's what's on my mind these days.

DnJ, SBJ, Gordie and SJohn, thank you for stopping by, seriously made my day!

Last edited by Gerda; 07/23/20 03:06 PM.

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Originally Posted by AndrewP
Originally Posted by DnJ
In hindsight I think that my own ex worked very hard for quite a lot of years being the person she thought she should be / wanted to be and buried the person that she was. Even with her so-called MLC - in her case - I don't think she ever did become that person.


I think this is my H exactly. I didn't realize that when this all started. As is obvious from my first four years of posts. I thought I was waiting for the real H to come back, a great man, kind, good father, ethical, faithful.

Now I am starting to think that he was trying to be those things and it never felt like it fit.

I on the other hand, though certainly very damaged from my own screwed up upbringing, was confident, had many talents I was using in my work, was vibrant in so many ways -- and I let all those things fall away, trying to be what I thought a good wife was, a surrender that wasn't about love but just about suppressing my own gifts because I felt unworthy and never thought that H should put aside anything so that I could try to realize any of the path I had been on before him.

I have mentioned this before but before I had faith I remember asking him about his faith once and he said that he really needed it, that I had no idea how bad he was. I thought he was just expressing some kind of Catholic guilt. Now I think of that and shiver. Now he is that bad and says he is finally being himself. I still believe he had a mental break that was MLC, I just think that the machine was already very broken. He could have healed himself through family life and self-giving love, but it didn't go that way. I think in all our cases, we could have healed each other's wounds, like that book by Harville Hendricks says. But the MLC plus demons was too strong. Even when I think of what my H is doing now, I was thinking that even if he wasn't that happy in his marriage, he always loved having a home, a place, and I would have taken him back until maybe a year ago. I was waiting until then. The last year I have been asking God for permission not to wait for him anymore and never to have to consider that again. Now he is running from place to place and saying he has nowhere to live -- just now he is heading to one of the world's COVID epicenters to live with his parents for a month because he says he has no money but won't settle even at 50-50 with me, keeps saying he doesn't believe the documentation or the appraisal. So he could actually have part of the equity now and set up a life for himself but he just keeps litigating and running, it's so weird. He is totally uncomfortable in any identity. He left his own country as a young child, escaping with his parents and never seeing his grandparents anymore, coming to this country with no money and his parents always at work. I think the attachment disorder was overwhelming, and then exacerbated by a lot of abuse, alcoholism, etc.

All of that said, this last week my D11 was with him in the state in which he lives now, the longest she was ever away. I was worried about her but tried to just use my days well, and every night took bike rides to the river and sat there looking at the sunset and watching the world grow dark and thinking thinking thinking. I feel like I am on a precipice now of letting something go. It will be much easier when this @#(@#@*#(& divorce is over but I start to imagine -- what would it feel like if I didn't think about the past anymore, no matter how bad it was or how many mistakes I made or how my kids are suffering -- what if I just started now, this is day one. I might only be half way through my life, if I am lucky. Even a part of that is a long time of wonderful things to see and do, even if pain and suffering comes and goes. And it's a lot of time to be a light to others and see the world, at least post-Covid. I still wake up in terror and grief a lot of the time, but for one thing H would never know that, I am pretty confident now in the divorce proceedings as my own lawyer, even if I am a little scared of our very unfair and possibly evil judge -- and for another, I think I am finally seeing an opening to seeing my life as just beginning. I don't know if I would ever consider having a man in my life in a real way, but everything else is wide open!

Last edited by Gerda; 07/30/20 07:53 PM.

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Originally Posted by Gerda
I think I am finally seeing an opening to seeing my life as just beginning


This is awesome! I imagine it feels freeing to say this. I believe each day can be a new beginning. So many possibilities. You have come a long way, my friend.


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Hi, Job -- it was an accidental post!


I have deleted it for you.

Last edited by job; 08/02/20 12:59 PM. Reason: replied to Gerda's posting re accidental posting...deleted it for her

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Good Morning Gerda

Ah vacation.

Your bicycle rides by the waters edge, the last drops of sunset splashing through the trees as twilight takes hold. Invigorating. Recharging.

I agree your H’s behaviour of litigation and running is weird. He is very much still running. I do wonder when/if he will tire.

It is nice to read your standing at an emotional precipice, looking, considering, planning, to let go of something.

For most times, letting go, feels like it is us that will fall off the cliff. Feelings. smile Consider and change your view. What you let go of falls away, you remain, overlooking the precipice watching it float away. Letting go is just letting go a piece, not letting go of you.

Originally Posted by Gerda
... I start to imagine -- what would it feel like if I didn't think about the past anymore, no matter how bad it was or how many mistakes I made or how my kids are suffering -- what if I just started now, this is day one.

Yes. Imagine. What would it be like to not have these feelings of the past. To accept, understand, forgive, and welcome your demons. Imagination is the first step in the creation of reality.

You stand atop the precipice, looking out, what do you need to let float away, to bring that fulfilling imagination to fruition.

You are strong, confident, and secure. Let go. You won’t fall.

D


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Originally Posted by DnJ
For most times, letting go, feels like it is us that will fall off the cliff. Feelings. smile Consider and change your view. What you let go of falls away, you remain, overlooking the precipice watching it float away. Letting go is just letting go a piece, not letting go of you.

Hi Gerda,

I find this statement so true. We were the ones left behind, left wanting for more, wanting some kind of answer or closure from all of this...left with the fear of uncertainty and loss, left with so much confusion and answers to find about ourselves.

Dnj makes me feel peace and you make me feel hope...hope for ME. Your post on my site after my return really helped to pull me out of an emotional slump. Thank you for that.

You have come so far and through so much (((Hugs)))

Kindly

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Originally Posted by Kindly
[quote=DnJ]
Dnj makes me feel peace and you make me feel hope...hope for ME. Your post on my site after my return really helped to pull me out of an emotional slump. Thank you for that.


Thank you so much for saying that (and everything else you said), Kindly. It is astonishing to think that I could bring someone hope! And I think you have pinpointed quite exactly the driving forces for me and DnJ. We are like two good parents with different focus points so you can go to the one you need that day. : ) Not that I don't want peace and not that he doesn't bring hope. But I am often an anxiety-ridden ball of tears and yet always always I have hope and have my eye on the light. DnJ's remarkable level of peace is something to behold but when DnJ describes his least peaceful battles, I feel a lot of comfort in that. It reminds me that peace is a grace, and that we can still be walking in the light even if we don't have peace yet.


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Originally Posted by DnJ


I agree your H’s behaviour of litigation and running is weird. He is very much still running. I do wonder when/if he will tire.

It is nice to read your standing at an emotional precipice, looking, considering, planning, to let go of something.

...

You stand atop the precipice, looking out, what do you need to let float away, to bring that fulfilling imagination to fruition.

You are strong, confident, and secure. Let go. You won’t fall.

D


OK but what I really want is for you to show up in your green cape and workpants and workboots and beat the crap out of H and his lawyer. Would that also be possible? That's something I could fall confidently into. : )

Here's the thing I have been noticing. It's the court stuff and the messages from lawyers and brokers. I have been writing my papers for the next stupid pointless conference of H trying to get out of even the crappy stipulation he forced me to stick to before Covid, and everything I write in it is so true and clear and obvious. And yet I know that my particular judge, the one who won't let us move on to trial for some reason -- is very likely to just scream at me as much as she screams at him and that she might do something that will force me to file an appeal.

And yet, what is scary about that? Why does it make me feel like someone is coming to kill me? I have my confidence back in every other way, I mean at least as much as I think is possible for me waking back up into the world when my body is starting to sag, fade, wrinkle and get veiny -- but when I see a note from the lawyer or a message from court, my entire being turns into the flight impulse and waves of despair consume me for a whole day. I am talking even about something like his lawyer's secretary sending me a request to e-file, which I ignore and won't do, but just even that starts the cycle. I reach the point of strength and power eventually but my entire being is longing with far too much energy for the end of this nightmare, so I don't have to deal with them anymore ever.

The stipulation I signed says I have the right to buy him out of our city place if he doesn't get an offer by June 1. He has to have it reappraised and I get to buy him out at that price. Before Covid, I had started an application to refinance so I could do that. But now I can't do it until things go back to normal as my rental income is too low. So I have to battle for the judge to enforce the stipulation and also give me a reasonable amount of time to come up with the refinance, which at this point means at least a year.

I know that no matter what, this is what I want. Because even if I have to sell the place next month, I have to do it without H and his broker. You cannot believe the nefarious things they have done,the lying and the false documents. So I just want to be free of them even if I have to sell the place right away. Meanwhile H refused to do the appraisal and filed a motion to take away all my rights to buy him out and allow him to continue marketing my home without my participation or representation and to continue to not pay child support and also to cover all his legal bills. We have about 1/4 of our usual rental income and I now have no lawyer at all, but he is still doing this, and his lawyer continues to work without getting paid, thinking he will have his pot of gold at the end.

There is a lot I am leaving out here but I am just trying to say that I have the same depths of anxiety and fear, wake up almost sick with it, but it's all compartmentalized. I have total detachment from H, no feelings of missing him or loving him or any of that, but I am terrified of anything related to the D. None of them know that, I look very tough to them. But I hate feeling that way and letting it cloud my mind, I hate how much time it [censored] from my life and my work and my mood with my kids -- and every fiber of my being longs for freedom from this horror, just to live on my own, no longer tied to this disgusting process and his fangs in my leg, not letting me go.

P.S. Noticed that the platform edited out a verb above as a censored verb but I was using it literally, the thing one does with a straw!

Last edited by Gerda; 08/17/20 08:27 PM.

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Hello Gerda

Originally Posted by Gerda
OK but what I really want is for you to show up in your green cape and workpants and workboots and beat the crap out of H and his lawyer. Would that also be possible? That's something I could fall confidently into. smile

LOL!

Boots, pants, and a cape. Gosh, I’d be half naked. I’d need a hard hat, eye protection, hearing protection, work gloves,... (hee hee)

Originally Posted by Gerda
Here's the thing I have been noticing. It's the court stuff and the messages from lawyers and brokers. I have been writing my papers for the next stupid pointless conference of H trying to get out of even the crappy stipulation he forced me to stick to before Covid, and everything I write in it is so true and clear and obvious. And yet I know that my particular judge, the one who won't let us move on to trial for some reason -- is very likely to just scream at me as much as she screams at him and that she might do something that will force me to file an appeal.

And yet, what is scary about that? Why does it make me feel like someone is coming to kill me?

Because you view(ed) your marriage as your life.

The death of your marriage triggers the same emotional responses as someone trying to kill you.

Uncouple that.

This is business now. That’s all. Just money.

Originally Posted by Gerda
There is a lot I am leaving out here but I am just trying to say that I have the same depths of anxiety and fear, wake up almost sick with it, but it's all compartmentalized. I have total detachment from H, no feelings of missing him or loving him or any of that, but I am terrified of anything related to the D. None of them know that, I look very tough to them. But I hate feeling that way and letting it cloud my mind, I hate how much time it [censored] from my life and my work and my mood with my kids -- and every fiber of my being longs for freedom from this horror, just to live on my own, no longer tied to this disgusting process and his fangs in my leg, not letting me go.

Fear is insidious and pervasive. Darkly it spreads, asserting its rule upon your life.

I do empathize and understand. (((Gerda)))

Let go the hate and the horror.

It’s business now. Stopping letting it svck time away from you and your kids, your life, your mood.

I am sorry you need to apply for a delay on the stipulation. It’s unfortunate your rental income is down and a projected one year extension is the necessary recourse.

The June 1st deadline has come and passed without an offer. H did not get it reappraised, and you do not have the funding anyhow. It is a narrow view to think that the court will hold H to his part and grant you an extension. You need to consider putting forth a continuance with both sides taken into context.

Propose everything remains as is, until June 1 2021. You get time to get your funding. H has ample time to sell, at his grossly inflated price, or reappraise in a post-Covid world.

You see how much H is attempting to worm his way out. All you are asking for is one little digit change 2020 to 2021. Not to reopen the entire mess. Keep it framed like that. It’s good and fair for both parties.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I know that no matter what, this is what I want. Because even if I have to sell the place next month, I have to do it without H and his broker. You cannot believe the nefarious things they have done,the lying and the false documents. So I just want to be free of them even if I have to sell the place right away.

I do understand the injustice of it all. You have endured much from H and his league of lawyers, brokers, and so on. It sure would feel good to win and strike back.

Do you want to be correct or be happy?

By the way these are not mutually exclusive. It’s just that our correctness usually is in a form of showing our spouse (and their L, and the courts, and so on) how incorrect they all are. That doesn’t sound very happy does it.

Selling a place the very next month, sounds to be in the realm of feeling not knowing. I also do not have all the facts which does present me a limited view. Please take it with a grain of salt. Know, I support you Gerda!

These are just some thoughts and beliefs from a caring non-lawyer friend. The non-lawyer part is a caveat for the legal opinions I expressed. (Ha, sounds lawyer-like)

Now where is my shirt...

I sat down for a Nanaimo bar...

Next thing I know I feel a breeze...

Take care my friend.

D


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Originally Posted by DnJ


Propose everything remains as is, until June 1 2021. You get time to get your funding. H has ample time to sell, at his grossly inflated price, or reappraise in a post-Covid world.

D


Oh my gosh, I think I left too much out if you think THAT! My strategy is based on upholding the stip exactly as is. It doesn't say anything about how the buy out will happen, how long it will take, etc. It was horribly vague, which is why I was trying to get out of it to begin with. I paid a lawyer to look it over and she said it was horribly written and vague in every way except the clause relating to the buy out -- crystal clear that after June 1, I have the right to buy him out at appraised value. Even if he gets an offer for a billion dollars. And that the judge would have to give me a reasonable amount of time to do that, and that reasonable is right now based on the covid reality. She said it was so clear that I should appeal if the judge doesn't uphold it.

I agree that the divorce is just about business. But this is one crazy a$$ business partner. I have not been posting about all that has been happening in a specific way. It is brutal. That is why I wanted you to come and beat the crap out of the players in his drama. Lying, false documents, bullying, threats and endless harrassment from his broker. All to avoid using an appraisal to determine equity, instead of a third party offer. Via stip, I am not allowed to have any representation and my no matter how much I cooperate, they file for contempt or threaten me, etc. No child support, no help with mortgage. And now we have the covid problem of them trying to bring people in and out of my place, putting my family and my renters at real risk. And the drama about the sign continued and reached a fever pitch, my son kept taking it down and getting more and more agitated because his dad had encouraged him to take it down -- and finally my son who had been doing so well exploded -- wrecked my house, disappeared for 12 hours, wrecked the sign, etc. Around here many people sell without a sign on the house and my son knows that. Not to mention that the market is down and the city has been shut down and empty so a sign is almost pointless. My son is smart. He knows his dad is just putting up that sign to try to control things or humiliate us or whatever he is trying to do. Because HIS BROKER HAS NEVER LISTED THE PROPERTY. I check on line every couple days. And the judge did too, her court attorney told us that in May. He has turned in many fake offers. He has some very weird plan up his sleeve, I don't know what it could be, but he is not trying to market this house for real.

I might have to sell the house very soon if I don't get the bank to modify my mortgage. If that happens, I just want to be able to have a real broker who represents me and works with me and the reality of the market and Covid, etc. And if I do get the bank to work with me and modify the mortgage, then I want to create a buy-out plan that gives him a down payment now and the rest in a year so that I can be free free free! I don't care if I lose some money or get a deal that isn't perfect. I just want to be done with this endless divorce!

So I don't know about your theory about my fear. I think it has more to do with my own pre-H wounds.


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Hello Gerda

Thanks for fleshing out your strategy, and clearing up my view of it.

Your H is one crazy a$$ business partner, no doubts there. Who doesn’t list a property they are trying to sell? And fake offers? SMH. Wonder what he’s thinking.

Originally Posted by Gerda
So I don't know about your theory about my fear. I think it has more to do with my own pre-H wounds.

Yes. One’s fear is about one’s self. Always.

A deep anxiety of youth, irrationally tied and triggered by currently imagined possible future events.

I had a lot of fears of divorce. None of them actually came true.

D


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Welcome back to my thread after your bout with the dark forces of Covid!

Originally Posted by DnJ


I had a lot of fears of divorce. None of them actually came true.

D


D, all of my worst fears in life HAVE come true. I have survived them and grown stronger, etc, yes. But thinking that bad things won't happen won't work for me. They have mostly all happened. I have been saved from the worst that could happen within the worst -- e.g., yes, I got cancer, but I lived. But most of my fears HAVE happened. So for me it is more about finding out why to keep living, loving, joy-ing when so much of life turned out to be your worst fears come to pass.

What do you say about that?

And how are you feeling?


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I posted this on DnJ's thread but realized I should probably have posted it here, another signpost....

Originally Posted by DnJ

Ah, perceptions and reality. I believe these people in crisis do emotionally regress back to their younger selves. They change, we’ve all seen it. The question is if this is a change or finally dropping the act or something else.

I think our spouses weren’t acting. They were those people. Life, love, us, family, changed them for the better. Just like we did with them over the many years. We both grew into different people; adults, Mothers/Fathers. Then, their past comes calling and drags them back to the very person they were. That poor soul who had no idea of the trauma they were carrying around.

As unbelievable as it is, it’s emotional time travel more than change. They are reliving their youth. My XW has three different versions of herself inside. It seems like she changes from my perception, and yes she does. But, it matters how one defines change.

We all have many different versions of ourselves within us. With a little thought, I’m sure one can conjure up feelings of their past happy childhood. Times of strife dealing with our parents. Our first love. Our first fight with our best friend. Our awkward first kiss. Our time learning to drive. And so on.
...
For the majority of the time for the MLCer it is not change, nor dropping the act, it is something else - reliving their youth. They become someone else, a different angrier younger version of themselves. And that young person lacks empathy, isn’t married, doesn’t have kids, and so on.

D


I was thinking a lot about this, as you know; my thread is one of those where this topic is discussed, and sometimes I shudder to think of a newbie stumbling on my first thread, 2014, and seeing how it all played out. I don't want that newbie to lose hope based on my story.

But I was thinking of it also especially because I am preparing my nine millionth round of court papers and I came across a note my H wrote me once, well after BD, when he was about to cross fully over. I have been thinking lately that he was all bad always and the 20 years were the act, him trying to be someone he wasn't. But this note was like a door into whatever part of him was good. I think what you say above is a perfect way to think of it and I thank you for saying it!

I will paste the note below but I wanted to give you a song gift today. Taylor Swift's two new songs -- Exile with Bon Iver and Seven. And then Coldplay, "Us Against the World." The live version is particularly wonderful.

Here is the note. I know I posted it before on one of my long-ago threads. It is a good proof of your point. This was one of those momentary awakenings. I wrote something back and by then he was already gone, his response was back to the teen sans empathy and about what he owed the OW and a little while after that, how he had tried being a saint and he was done with that, it destroyed him and he was looking out for himself now. The "everyone involved" of course included wanting to not hurt OW, but it still does point to a remorse and a little empathy for me which had stopped by that time and which I basically never saw again.

I feel certain that I irreparably hurt the whole wide world last night,and many many many other nights, and I know I mostly hurt you, but also I hurt the kids, God, myself -- many many nights. This strange self-alienating trans-home, trans-self, trans-father, trans-husband, trans-friend multi-year void-abyss, this icy-cold winter is deeply cutting and wounding me and bleeding me of all life, all charity, all innocence and love. I have to believe there's a Spring beyond it. I can't see it now. I cannot see it now. I only know I have to change, that something has to change, and that I feel in this time so unworthy of a man's life and of a life-time, but not indulgently so, just honestly so - for a change. And I feel deeply sorry that I've sinned, mainly through lack of purity and charity, against you, against God, against many many others, most especially my kids. I only always pray for a new season, for an everlasting Spring, and I pray to learn what that time might look like, and how to make it a reality for me and for everyone, everyone, involved.


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Hello Gerda

Originally Posted by Gerda
But thinking that bad things won't happen won't work for me.

I do not promote pretending bad things won’t happen. Of course bad stuff happens; not all the bad stuff though.

My message is about rationalizing the fear. Accepting it. And therefore having fear lose it’s hold upon you.

Originally Posted by Gerda
What do you say about that?

It looks like you are questioning how to live, laugh, and love in a post-fear world; after the fearful event has happened and you have survived the fall out. I am sorry, my other posts were in response to your anxiety when dealing with divorce issues from H and his L. If we were actually sitting across from each other, and enjoying that wonder coffee and chocolate, we’d sure figure a lot more out. Of course I’d probably be 100 pounds heavier - in my virtual world you are a fantastic cook and baker. smile

The question of why to continue when so many fears have come to pass.

I have had enough events I feared come to pass as well. When I say my fears “actually didn’t come true” I mean that as written. This is two pronged. Some triggering events have happened. As those became closer and closer to reality, and eventual became reality, the fear becomes less and less. Fear lives in our imagined future, not within actual present. Things tend to uncouple as they move from fearful expectation to concerning reality.

The other “didn’t come true” is that my fears aren’t those triggering events. They are deeper. Like pain and death and such. These events just triggered those irrational fears, and the likelihood of serious pain or injury or abandonment or whatever was basically nil - it just felt like it wasn’t.

Why to continue seems like depression not fear. Doesn’t it?

Now, as you’ve said many times, I am the most glass half full guy you’ve ever met. Depression happens before acceptance. It’s normal and healthy to question and become depressed about life, choices, change, and so on. It’s our minds and emotions solidifying our reality. Getting ready to fully embrace and accept things.

I do remember a period of time after D when I slowed my conversations here. Pulled back for a bit. There are many steps where this happens; after a big change or decision, when letting go of something (happens each and every time we let go something anew), after processing something be it realized or not. This temporary dimming precedes our acceptance.

Grief is our emotions working to understand a loss. Something taken away or has changed and we experience a loss, and we grieve. Even if the loss is for the better, we still grieve it. That was an unexpected learning for me.

My separation and divorce stopped all angry and hurtful outburst from XW to me. I missed those. Sure, that loss was for the better. Yet I missed those outbursts. Depression heralds acceptance. Fear not. smile

Lots is changing in your life. Much of it is for the better. And still you need to grieve and come to emotional terms with it.

Have faith, the world will look much brighter in a little while.

D


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Well, it looks like S15 might have Covid, and then I started throwing up at 4 in the morning and having chills and my sense of smell seems off.

I am so scared to do this alone.

Will try to get tested today.

Prayers and hugs please.


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(((Gerda)))

Yes, get tested. Lots of liquids and rest.

Praying for you.

Your virtual comfort to me did help. I hope mine can provide similar benefit.

Take care.

D


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Gerda,

I hope you and your son feel much better and very soon.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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False alarm. We had a really bad two days but fevers are gone already so doc said it's not Covid. Thank you for the prayers/wishes/support!

My daughter wanted to help me so she took down the electric tea kettle to make me some tea. She couldn't figure out where the plug was but did it all without heating the water, including cream and sugar, and proudly brought me the tea with an apology that it wasn't hot. So cute.


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Gerda, I'm glad you're back to feeling better, and the assurance that it's not Covid must be quite a relief! How kind that your daughter was able to cold-brew you some tea. smile


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Originally Posted by cardinal
How kind that your daughter was able to cold-brew you some tea. smile


That made me giggle! Thank you, Cardinal, always nice to see you stop by. When I see your name I always picture that beautiful red bird and the sound they used to make outside my window when I was growing up -- whoop, whoop, whoop, whoooooo-up!

Last edited by Gerda; 09/03/20 08:18 PM.

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Originally Posted by Gerda
False alarm. We had a really bad two days but fevers are gone already so doc said it's not Covid. Thank you for the prayers/wishes/support!

My daughter wanted to help me so she took down the electric tea kettle to make me some tea. She couldn't figure out where the plug was but did it all without heating the water, including cream and sugar, and proudly brought me the tea with an apology that it wasn't hot. So cute.

wow you check out for a while and look what you miss! I'm so grateful you're not ill with Covid. Your daughter is a sweetheart!


M 20+ T25+
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A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
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Good Morning Gerda

It was good to read your sickness was short lived. Nice to see children feeling empathic and wanting to help us feel better. I bet cold tea never felt so good!

How are things in your corner of the world?

D


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Well, I had another awful court date today. There was the tiniest amount of progress because they agreed to appraise the house. He was supposed to pay for the appraisal but said he had no money because of me (I said to his L, "Does your client have a job?" and H started spewing...) so I had to agree to split it with him. But the judge basically said she could not enforce the stip (court order) about the house because it was too vague and poorly written. In January, I filed a motion saying that the stip was too vague and thus unenforceable and she screamed at me and refused to hear the motion so I withdrew it and buckled down for the marketing period, which was a nightmare and was supposed to end in June. Now she is saying it's not enforceable, after making me abide by it all this time!!!

June 1 he had to have the house appraised and I had the right to buy him out but it has no timeline for that. So I have been making offers to give him a downpayment now and the rest as soon as our rents return for 6 months so I can refi. And the judge is trying to say that that's too long, even though our entire city shut down and is still quite shut down, no tourists, etc. But none of that is in the stip, and so I am trying to figure out when/if to appeal or if I should just start saying, "I can't agree to that, sorry," and push everything to trial.

We were referred to trial in January but she is basically refusing to let us go. She keeps calling us back for more conferences. My H's L just keeps filing motions and billing and no end in sight, totally dissipating our asset and refusing to pay debts and trying to get me to pay his bill though I have no lawyer!!!!

This is not a vent session but a call to the troops. I do not understand my rights as far as saying no to all this and forcing a trial. I do not want a trial but this is just a never-ending nightmare and we should admit we didn't resolve and must to trial over everything. I also got a very inequitable distribution and only agreed to it because there was an end point and the chance for me to pay him his share over a couple years (at least in my mind, since it wasn't specified in the order). If we are just ignoring the order and making a new arrangement, I feel like I should appeal and try to get this before another judge, or insist on no further conferences and prepare for trial.

Does anyone 'round here know about that? E.g., am I allowed to say that if we don't stick to the order that resolved the property then everything is off the table, nothing is resolved, and it's time for trial?

I was so horrified to have H's face staring out at me on the teleconference that I had to tape a piece of paper over his little square of the meeting. All that I had near me was a paper doll shirt my D made when I forced her to do creative time yesterday instead of the usual TV/phone that dominates Covid life. So that paper doll shirt was what I taped over H's face. That gave me a little laugh amidst all the screaming. He looks so weird and is so angry. He spewed a few times during the conference. The problem is the judge does not know about MLC so I have to constantly produce proof that he is lying and she is also the laziest judge ever, so she openly admitted today that she hadn't really read our papers because she thought it was a settlement conference. I worked so hard on those papers, disproving every single thing he said, even looking up the case law his laywer has used and ripping it to shreds. (He had basically pulled a clip off the internet that was totally irrelevant, which gave me a laugh.) This time I got a court reporter so it's all on the record in case I appeal.

Last edited by Gerda; 09/10/20 01:34 AM.

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Gerda, you know I don’t know about any of this, but I’m so sorry you had another bad day in court. One bright spot seems to be that, because it’s via teleconference, you can in fact tape a piece of paper over his square. He’s there compartmentalized in his little box, hemmed in by a paper doll shirt! It must be so frustrating that this judge seems to be putting minimum effort. Hopefully others here that know more will be able to answer your question. Is there a family law facilitator at the court who could advise you on this? (((Gerda))) I hope you’re having a better day.


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Good Morning Gerda

How is the fall in your locale? Are the leaves turning to yellows and orange?

Here the first tastes of fall are upon us. The tops of tress are becoming a palette of golden yellows, burnt oranges, and fiery reds. The purple rain birch, S23’s birth tree, turns dark purple; the darkened hue slowly dripping downward from treetop to ground level.

The grass has thankfully slowed its growth. With all the rain this year, I’ve put a lot of miles on cutting it.


An appraisal on the house is some progress. Hopefully, this will be entered as the true value, instead of H’s made up fantasy exaggeration.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I do not understand my rights as far as saying no to all this and forcing a trial. I do not want a trial but this is just a never-ending nightmare and we should admit we didn't resolve and must to trial over everything. I also got a very inequitable distribution and only agreed to it because there was an end point and the chance for me to pay him his share over a couple years (at least in my mind, since it wasn't specified in the order). If we are just ignoring the order and making a new arrangement, I feel like I should appeal and try to get this before another judge, or insist on no further conferences and prepare for trial.

Does anyone 'round here know about that? E.g., am I allowed to say that if we don't stick to the order that resolved the property then everything is off the table, nothing is resolved, and it's time for trial?

I am sorry you are finding the court/legal system so frustrating. H and his lawyer are diverting and blocking this process quite often.

The legal arena has its own rules and guidelines. From my experiences, and questions of my lawyer during my divorce, the judge’s rulings are law. One of course can appeal, however at some point it will be, and is settled. Remaining out of the courtroom is best, however an amicable partner is required for that.

Navigating that arena is foreign to me. Lawyers study and practice many years to be proficient in it. Yes, one can represent themselves, much easier when facing a less irrational adversary. And the importance of the case needs to be considered; a traffic ticket vs a messy divorce, much different stakes involved.

What you ask, seems reasonable. You are reasonable. The legal arena, is different. Justice, fairness, rights, law, etc., there is a lot to balance and find resolution within.

Now, if you wanted to know how and why an alternating current leads or lags an applied voltage as it flows through an impedance, and how that can be mathematically represented with trigonometric equations and imaginary numbers, I’m your guy. There may even be one or two other things I know about. Legal system ain’t one of those; I hired a lawyer.

In response to you question, and remember my layman’s knowledge base, one doesn’t say or tell the judge what to do. You make a motion for the judge to consider the merits of said proposal, they will assess based upon all those previously mentioned principles, and rule one way or the other. I have no real idea of the likely outcome of such a proposal, however I think/feel your judge would dismiss it.

Please seek, even better hire, a lawyer for advice and guidance. Your situation is moving, albeit slowly. Perhaps the timing is right for you to get representation. I don’t want to see you run over and unfairly saddled with any of H’s enormous lawyer bill. (Wow, that guy has sure racked up one huge bill)

I do support and care about you. Sorry I cannot be better help.

D


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Hallo, DnJ. I think you forgot some of my sitch. I went through three lawyers so far. The last one I even got one who charged more, thinking he'd be better and he was terrified of the judge. They all charged a lot to do almost nothing. They didn't understand MLC and kept trying to settle and responding to attacks instead of filing motions to protect me and the kids. I have made much more progress by myself! I have a judge who is notoriously lazy and known for not caring about children. A lawyer from the abuse survivor's clinic told me to get out of her courtroom as fast as possible so I could get into family court and get a better set up for my kids. A friend here who went through an equally insane MLC divorce had a caring judge who asked about the kids every time and always made sure they were taken care of. My judge is not even concerned that I get no child support and refuses to read my papers or documents esp those about the kids. I've been referred to trial but she won't let us go, I can't figure out why.

Anyway it is always good to have you stop by here, so don't apologize, it's always helpful.

And it's very much fall here, but the temperatures that make me put on four sweaters are those that you consider tropical up there. I don't know how you do it without fear but it must be your green cape. I am a very petite lady and always shivering as soon as the temp goes below 65 except for the ol' hot flashes which force me to wear tank tops and cardigans all winter so I can take the sweater on and off nine thousand times a day.

OK I do need some other house advice and if you have a chance to just stop by my mountain cabin, I would gladly trade you all the naiiimmooosammiiioo bars you can eat in exchange for some work around the place.

1. I need a new roof. I will not be able to afford this but there are mice getting into holes because the logs holding up the roof are rotted in parts and there is only so much foam a girl can spray there. You should ahve seen my log cabin chinking attempt last time, mixing the sand and lime and portland cement as incorrectly as possible though I did manage to seal a few holes with it, it sure didn't look like the old-timey log look I was goin' for. ANYWAY i have been doing research on the possibilities and thought that SIP's could be a good choice because my ceiling up there isn't even insulated except these heat reflector things my H put, he never knew anything about eco issues or R value and never cared so it is FREEZING and inefficient there. I was thinking that SIP's could be better than insulating and and replacing all the logs, etc., but I have read some issues with water vapor and rot so I wasn't sure I should even keep reading about those. What do you think?

2. All my propane heaters (the kind that vent through an outer wall) are broken or dying. They are from the year we married and bought the place, so I guess it's part of the general disintegration. I have been watching videos about DIY radiant heat kits, and half of my place is over a basement so it would be really easy to put those tubes under the floorboards from the basement. My hot water heater is on demand so I don't know if I would have to get a new boiler of some kind. What do you think of that idea though of doing that instead of replacing those other heaters. I sure wish I had geothermal like my friend The Green Caped Even-Keeled Wonder, Electric Man.


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Good Morning Gerda

I know you have accomplished much on your own. And yes, your legal situation has more than it’s fair share of nonstandard participants - judge, lawyers (both sides), H.

My learnings, regarding MLC, from my brief journey through the legal process - It doesn’t matter!

XW has the right to be angry, irrational, and upset, and so does H. People get to choose what they want to do. Even if we, or specifically their lawyer thinks it is not in their best interests, they have the right to do it. They are adults.

All that matters is what they are willing to sign or not sign. Individuals can give up their rights, custody, house, cars, money, property, whatever; the legal system, lawyers and judges, just ensure it is fair. The fairness is ensuring that the person was not coerced into it, understands what their rights are, and what they are doing. Fairness is informing them and then upholding their right to choose. This is not the same as moral fairness, which requires a much wiser judge than can be found on this earthly plane.

An insane person cannot negotiate or sign these agreements. However, MLCers are not insane, they are irrational; angry, depressed, in denial, projecting, justifying, pretending their lives are great, and doing anything and everything to maintain that facade. That can include signing legal agreements. Or not signing or negotiating all while wasting the court’s time. Unfortunately, H is in the latter category, and racking up quite a bill.

And negotiating with an irrational person is a minefield at best. You cannot just deal with H as an angry man who still has self preservation instincts that will slow his madness of spending money and realize the futility of this course. He is in MLC, and it doesn’t matter in this arena. Legal fairness matters. That’s all. It’s the rules of the arena.

How do you negotiate with a ping pong ball person? It’s like herding cats. It’s very difficult and take finesse. Some lucky breaks would be nice too.

The courts have ordered a “real” appraisal of you house. That is a good thing. A good step. H will have to “sign”, will have to agree to the house’s value now. This is a basis for crafting a more reasonable buy out of him, rather than his fantasy amount. If possible, let H and his L adjust their “idea” to the reality of the housing market, and if reasonable, jump on it.

That was the most interesting piece I found within this process. One side drafts a deal. Signs it, and sends it over to the other side. If the other side accepts it, and signs - that’s it. It goes to a judge to ensure both lawyers did their jobs and fairness was observed and the agreement becomes legal. Poof.

If the receiving party does not agree, they usually modify or craft a new offer and send back a signed one. And the ball is in the other’s court. For me there was only one returned volley. I would not agree to her demand for me to charge her with adultery. I took that stipulation out, increased the lump sum pay out amount, signed it, and my L sent the modified agreement back. After a few weeks, and several lawyer forced visits in which XW has to see two different financial planners, she signed the agreement and a waiver clearly stating that she was going against her lawyer’s advice. Poof. Done. Fairness ensured. MLC doesn’t matter in the business side of this mess.

You can herd cats, it just requires the cat to believe they want to go that way. Or adjusting the path to follow the cat’s meandering. Probably a little/lot of both.


Wow. Nanaimo bars and seeking construction/handyman advice. How can I refuse? Like a moth to a flame. smile

Mice getting into homes and buildings is a problem, and once they have a pathway they do keep it open. They are mice, they don’t have much else to do but chew and root around all day.

Spray foam does quickly and effectively filling it the crevasse, expanding to all corners and sealing it well. It is also an excellent insulation providing a good R value, and of course stopping the wind from just blowing in, along with wondering mice. However, spray foam is, well, mostly air, and mice chew that “air” extremely quickly, for it is just gas encapsulated within foam.

Use some steel wool. Mice cannot chew through steel. Install, shove, some steel wool into the tunnel and then fill it up with spray foam. Have the steel wool close to the external side will be best, the mice will chew until they meet the mesh of fine steel strands. You want the mice prevented from entering, you can trap and/or poison the ones already within the building. So shove in a ball of steel wool from outside and spray fill the tunnel from the inside.

Structurally Insulated Panels are a good and relatively easy modification/upgrade to seal and insulated the roof (or walls, or floor). Installation is overtop of the existing interior vaulted ceiling so the internal decor atmosphere is maintained; rather important for a log cabin style home.

The problem, it sounds like, is the no air space. Log cabins and other buildings with vaulted ceiling have no attic, no air space between the insulation and the external weatherproofing material, i.e. the shingles. That causes the vapour problem. This is really a concern with no closed cell insulation, like fibreglass and such. The utilization of closed cell insulation, like the pink styrofoam insulation panels (usually come in 2’x8’ sheets and are easily cut to fit whatever they need to be) alleviates that concern.

First things first. The R-factor needs to be high enough to keep the cold out. Which is actually retaining the heat in; it is reducing the flow of heat energy. This just means you require a thick enough layer of insulation. You need to heat the living space enough to balance the loss of heat through the insulation. That pink styrofoam has a higher r-value per inch than fibreglass, so you can use less material. For example a 8 inch thick vs a 12 inch thick roof.

The next thing is the dew point, and that vapour problem. Without a dead air space above the insulation; which is vented to the atmosphere; and moisture builds. The dew point will be somewhere within the insulation, unless the insulation is too thin in which case the dew point ends up within the dwelling, which is indicative of frost on the interior surface of the ceilings or walls. It’s the reason windows frost up as well, although air flow is usually designed to most times prevent this except during very close periods.

When the dew point is within open cell insulation (fibreglass) that is where the moisture will freeze/than and accumulate. A vapour barrier helps, but without an above insulation vented air space, the moisture cannot escape and eventually pools within the insulation and drips and flows into the living area. (That was version 1 of my attic, kids’ playroom I built)

Using close cell insulation; or ensuring the dew point is located within close cell insulation if one used both types; does not allow for moisture accumulation, because air cannot flow to that point. (That was version 2 smile ).

SIP should be manufactured with closed cell insulation and engineered with proper depth to provide the required r-value for minimal heat transfer and comfortable living area. This will lower the heating bill and provide a stable comfortable environment both winter and summer.

Heat plays a big part of this scenario as well. Propane heaters, especially older one, pump out a rather high amount of humidity. They create more of a moisture problem in the closed months. Of course you do not want a too dry of a house, especially with wood work. The wood needs moisture to prevent cracking and splitting, and a log house has a lot of wood. Even regular dwellings have a fair bit of wood, with all the trim, doors, cupboards, etc. So moisture content is important.

Hearing radiant heat, and I think of the microwave radiating type in which the heater heats you and not the air. The hot water piped system is of course radiating heat energy and will heat everything within the environment. This radiating does require time and does not react quickly to changes within the environment. It is a set it and forget it type system and takes a while to find the right balance; for a gal un-garbing and re-garbing herself 9000 times a day, it might not work so well. smile This kind of heating system is what is in the building I work in, and there is no end of complaints, cold spots, hot spots, etc.

An on-demand water heater would not be a good fit either. And truthful a boiler is better suited, depending upon the size of the place. A typical domestic water heater is about 3000 W, the big ones are 4500W. 3000W is one element on your stove. Imagine trying to heat your entire house with just that one element. That is all the heat the water heater could produce and put into the liquid within the pipes in the floor. That “hot”, well like warm liquid, circulates and radiates heat outward into the room. The piping is installed under the floor, which mean the floor has to heat up first. The floor boards heat the flooring (carpet, tiles, whatever), which then radiate heat to the air, which then radiates heat to the furniture, you, the walls, the ceiling, etc. As you can see lots of energy transfer, which means lots of losses.

These loses are just heat, but it prevents the heat getting to where you want it. Not to mention the lack of source energy, that 3000W element, the minimal heat will be dissipated from the transfer piping rather quickly. Rooms and areas further downstream will receive very little heat, ever.

The converse of all that is just as problematic. Once the cabin is sufficiently heated up enough the water heater/boiler shuts off. Yet the liquid is still hot. The floorboards, flooring, carpet, and such continue to radiate heat long after the thermostat has reached the desired temperature.

A reasonable sized house requires around 15-25kW of heat. That’s 15000 to 25000 watts of heat. That can be from individual propane heaters, the baseboards we discussed long ago, or a single air-forced furnace. A geothermal component is the source energy of say a force air furnace. The beauty part is the low input energy required to extract the output energy from the geothermal heat source. They are very high efficiency.

Propane heaters are poor efficiency, and considering the humidity issues, not a recommended solution. They are utilized when electrical service are small or none existent, and it is cost prohibitive to upgrade or build a new electrical service.

Baseboards provide easy, air sensing thermostatically controlled, quick responding, heating for individual room. They do not provide any humidity, which is usually not a problem for the opening and closing of outer door is usually more than sufficient to provide fresh air and maintain humidity levels. These are inexpensive and easy to install.

Hot water radiating heat is more money. If one wants individual room control, zoning controls add to the complexity and the cost. There are not filled with water, it is glycol or similar antifreeze-type liquid. They do leak and require maintenance. It is nice to walk across a cosy warm floor in bare feet, which can be obtained by other means and better insulation. Of course better insulation lowers input energy costs, which offsets the upfront cost of upgrading insulation (those SIPs).

Fan-force heating provides air flow and circulates the heat rather radiate and convection alone. This keeps humidity under control and usually is a better living environment, temperature-wise. The air flow keep windows less fogged up as well. If one does not have the duct work, this can be a big undertaking.

My house originally had a boiler and radiators in each room. When I purchased it that system was not functioning and in very bad shape. I removed all that and installed ductwork, from basement through all three floors. No easy feat. The walls could not accommodate a duct for the required airflow so the duct work was surface mounted and then built in to a corner closet. A forced-air furnace was installed, and later geothermal.

Along with that, I insulated the attic (no air space ceiling) with closed cell styrofoam to R-50 or R-60. New windows and doors replaced the old leaky ones. My entire house is comfortable and there are no cold or hot spots.

My vision of your cabin is such that ductwork is probably not a viable option. I would lean towards baseboard heaters and forego hot water radiant heat. If duct work exists, or could be easily installed, fan-forced would be really nice. Especially with geothermal pumps.

No matter what option you choose, if you do not insulate you are pouring money to the outside. The SID upgrade or other roof repair/insulating sounds like it is needed. I suspect a ground level insulation upgrade would be beneficial as well.

Nanaimo bars and a mountain cabin is rather alluring to a hungry handyman.

Have a great day Gerda.

D

Last edited by DnJ; 09/20/20 05:15 PM.

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Gerda has done her homework.

1. Read DnJ's post three times to understand it all.
2. After second reading, watch several youtube videos and gain further knowledge.
3. Third reading, beginning to get it but am wondering if you mean, or could mean, a mini split ductless heat exchange unit. From what you said to quash my DIY radiant floor idea, plus what I just researched instead of cleaning up this messy house, that seems like my best bet. I can't afford the ground one but I might be able to do the air one if they offer a payment plan.

If you want to see the three that seemed most relevant, one was called, "How to Insulate a Cabin Roof and Floor" by bailey line. And one was not on youtube but was a website called ecohome and had an article by some university eco institute in your neck of the woods, I think. And one was called Roof Insulation Vented by protrade and really showed the exact process but was a stick frame, not log, so it seemed to leave some stuff I need to know out.

But what do you think of the minisplit system?

Watching these videos I am astonished that I have gone so long without proper insulation. No wonder it's freezing up there! What the heck was I thinking?

Well, I had a little on my mind I guess.

It seems like I should do the roof before I do anything.

But then what do you think of the mini split and going electric with the idea that I will eventually have some solar panels to spin meter backwards?

Also I have a woodstove but I usually keep the heat on at a very low level, like 55, when I am not there, in case of pipes. So I wasn't sure about all this other stuff, though if I move the kitchen as planned (it's not much of a kitchen, only moving the sink is a big deal) so that it's over the basement, the pipes would be running under the house anymore, so maybe no more risk of freezing.

(One day I want to refinish the basement, but that's another tray of brownies.)

About the SIP's, after watching the above videos, I saw that the guy recommended these other things that were kind of like SIP's but less unweildy and costly but with way less R value, though admittedly way more than the current R value of 0. Or -20 maybe. Seems like putting SIP's over my current set up will require a crane and a serious crew but maybe it will be so airtight that it will be worth it?

I still don't totally understand the vapor barrier stuff you are discussing and about which I was reading. The first and third video seemed to give a list of what to use and when/where that made sense but I wasn't sure if you would agree based on what you wrote.

I see you have already polished off the Naimmoonnooomemifeefifofum bars. Would you like some meatloaf and mashed potatoes for this round? We have a lot of work to do today.

Last edited by Gerda; 09/21/20 01:05 AM.

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P.S. Equally useful was the first part, about court. Some excellent reminders.

About drafting agreements -- indeed. A signature is all we need. One of my exhibits in my papers was "Settlement Attempts Since July, 2018." I was using that exhibit to refute his assertion that I have delayed this process or in some way prevented a resolution. There were literally over a dozen settlement offers, some direct to H, some through friends, family, two sent to that guy who was funding H's lawyer, one to that guy's wife! One was an entire powerpoint laying out a very simple and clear buy out timeline. Good times.

But as you say, an appraisal may help. We did have the appraisal he didn't believe last year but it will be harder for him to get around this one.

I just can't believe the H I knew became this. And he is not insane in a way. But I do not think he is just irrational. One friend of ours saw him last year, before he moved out, after not seeing him for four or five years. She is not a doctor but is in a healing profession and had known us only as a couple, for almost twenty years. He hung out with us awkwardly before going out for the evening. Once he had left the room, she turned to me with grave concern and told me that she felt he needed immediate care in a mental hospital.

I think we both have spouses who are battling mental illness. I know that doesn't qualify as insane by the standard you describe. But I don't think it's regular MLC either.

Hey, quit hogging the peach pie. And please add a dollop of whipped cream to mine.

(I just opened my jeans drawer after not wearing those since March as it has been chilly here the past few days. And I could not button my favorite pair. I am trying to care enough not to eat more pie. But I might not care enough.)

Last edited by Gerda; 09/21/20 01:39 AM.

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P.P.S. to DnJ -- I have continued to do Dr. DnJ's homework. Much research and no roofing company payment plans later, I am thinking heat pump starting with one room for now and temporary insulation on ceilings where I can do it. I found a DIY where someone covered foam boards with fabric and it was almost cute, plus very easy to put up quickly. This will not reach an R value of DnJ's house but will be a zillion times better than the current nothing. By fall 2021, I should be able to do it properly with insulation added to outside before putting on new roof and then I can phase out more propane heaters and add more mini splits. Do you approve? And if so, do I need to put strips along the ceiling and nail the boards to those so that there is a little air between board and ceiling or can I nail it directly to ceiling (wood planks). It is not going to be air tight so does this mean I don't have to worry about moisture building up between boards and ceiling? And I will pull it out for the summer and only reinstall in the fall if I can't redo the real roof with proper insulation by then.

The latest problem is a mouse infestation. Can't figure out where they are coming from but I had to have the yard dug up to pump the septic so I thought that might be why? It's log so they don't seem to be nesting in the house, just getting in.

This is our new youtube channel. It's called, "In the Woods with DnJ and Gerda." You show our viewers how to build and fix stuff and I offer design tips and keep everyone entertained. I used to have an employee at my old business who liked to watch me interact with customers. He'd turn to the other staff members and say with his kind of mafia accent, "Look at 'er. She's workin da room."

Last edited by Gerda; 09/23/20 04:19 AM.

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Good Morning Gerda

Love the YouTube channel title. smile

The ductless split heating/cooling units are excellent. I use these in many of our buildings at work. They provide good heat and cooling with minimal disruption to the interior of the room. In my case, we need to have more cooling with the added electrical equipment being installed and there is no room for ducts.

Temporary insulation will be a good idea, especially since the cabin sounds like it has nothing. Do you use this cabin year around? Or plan to? Or is it more spring, summer, fall type thing?

Styrofoam panels decorated with fabric can be attached directly to the ceiling. This is temporary and your plans to insulated outside and install a new roof will return the interior to normal. I am assuming the interior is finished and you do want it to remain as it looks as much as possible.

You mention a basement. Is it a crawl space or a full basement? Is it heated?

The floor is probably cold in the cool months. Insulating between the floor joists is the usual solution. However, if the basement is a full standing basement or you have future plans to utilize it, for storage or living space, insulated the basement walls.

I am guessing the basement is unfinished, so it would be relatively easy to attach 2x6 studs to the wall and install closed cell insulation. This standard placement of wall stud accommodates the insulation and provides proper straight forward spacing for the finished wall material.

The basement floor itself could be built up one layer of styrofoam thick with a subfloor installed and you would be comfy cosy.

As for mice, yeah they are a pest. Remember metal, they don’t chew through that. Steel wool in the mouse holes.

I installed roofing metal, 2 1/2 feet heigh around the perimeter of my house at ground level. This barrier keeps the mice out. A few still find a way in; they are rather industrious it seems. These are easily trapped. Ah living in the country.

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Originally Posted by DnJ
Styrofoam panels decorated with fabric can be attached directly to the ceiling. This is temporary and your plans to insulated outside and install a new roof will return the interior to normal. I am assuming the interior is finished and you do want it to remain as it looks as much as possible.
My parents did this in our old farm house in part for noise reduction. They used strips of wood paneling over the seams to create a "look" and to also provide structural support to hold the panels up. It actually worked decently and was up for probably 30 years. Nothing like a temporary fix to create permanence.

As an aside, the mice loved squeezing into the space between these panels and the ceiling and running around. This is the time of the year here that they little @#$ come into the house through my basement to escape the oncoming winter. I've found that they are attracted to sources of water like my sump and I leave poison out for them there frown


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Andrew, I was quite honored to have earned a visit from you!!! And I spent a long while thinking about how cool your parents farm house must have been, and therefore how cool they must be. But the mice behind the panels sure gave me pause!

I also visited your thread as a result of you visiting mine and realized I had missed quite a few chapters. I don't know about this lady in your life, I wasn't following for a while, but I will say this-- a lot of us ended up in our MLC mess because we thought this was how things were, or that we shouldn't trust our guts. I think we have to start trusting our guts. Hurting someone is painful, and I am very sorry for her if she loves you and will be hurt. But for myself I have found that part of my healing was learning to trust my gut. If I had done that long ago, I would not have married my H to begin with. (I don't regret it exactly, glad for my kids and how this brought me to faith. But I can see that I didn't trust my gut, and that I still struggle to.)

Meanwhile, DnJ, I did study this last post from you and did a bunch of research, found a company called Alpine something or other and had a long call with them to get all the skinny. I think I am gonna get one unit for two of the bedrooms to start and do the temporary insulation and see how it goes. I am in a race against the clock, as my current renters leave soon and I have just one weekend before the next ones come to try to do everything. And my beekeper friend told me that the bees are packing the hive with propolis, which means BAD WINTER COMING.

Yes, I use the cabin all year. Folks rent it all year, as it is gorgeous there in every season and we are near decent skiing, at least by the standards of my state.

You assume that the interior is finished. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

OK, well I guess so, in a rustic cabin way. I sure wish I could show you some photos!

Basement -- we -- wait a second -- I! I! Just me! I have a real basement under the bedrooms and then under the main living space it is a crawl space and was supposedly insulated when we put in a foundation but I don't know how well they did it. Basement is not heated, but I want to make this basement a living space, it is otherwise the stupidest waste of money and represents some very bad decisions from my past with H. (We put it in, that was before my years of reading about houses and eco stuff.) So that is my next question -- it is very damp down there, and freezing. It doesn't freeze actually but it's cold. I have my washer/dryer down there too. One side is wet, the side that is more underground with no window. The other side faces a slope and that side I could dig out a little and either have a walk-out or a much bigger window than the current tiny ones.

I want to start by getting a dehumidifier, and I want to order it this week, so I need your advice! (And Andrew or anyone else who wants to chime in!) What should i buy? I want something that doesn't require a lot of attention because I have renters there a lot of the time. I want the basement to be dry so I can store stuff down there without it getting moldy -- right now I can't even store wood down there. And then once I get it more dry, I can start thinking about working on turning it into a living space with heat. I don't think I can think of insulating the walls til it's dry, right? I can't even put up framing down there, it will mold, won't it? Likewise a subfloor. I want to do this but I need to address the dampness. So can you give me a DnJ tutorial? I can post it on our youtube channel and we can monetize it.

roofing metal around your house? Doesn't that look kinda... not charming? Or what do you mean?

Last edited by Gerda; 10/12/20 02:25 AM.

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Gerda - thanks for the visit and the kind words.

If you have a damp basement a dehumidifier will not be up to the task. If the dampness is caused by something you brought in, like a year's supply of firewood then yes, it can help.

I would expect that the moisture is actually coming up from below and the only "right" answer is to dig down, put in drainage tile and then the slab would need to be sealed for moisture as well. Not a small job. What can also be done and was a job that my son had for a few years is to put in a perimeter drain out the outside of the foundation and then waterproof the foundation from the outside. Less chaos to the interior and no matter which route, time consuming and expensive.

A key issue with moisture in a space is ventilation. If you are committed to having this be a livable / usable space then that's problematic. Crawl spaces were common on most builds though. If you were to insulate the underside of the main floor and then open up the space to cross-breezes then your mold problem would probably get reduced at least but then it wouldn't be usable for anything other than storage of items that can take the cold and a bit of damp.


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Good Morning Gerda

Lol. The metal roofing around my house does look rather charming. The roofing I used on my house is 32 inch high rib metal sheets cut to whatever lengthen you need, and come in all kinds of colours. The bricks of my house are sand yellow, which are made from the local sand. The roof is red. The granite stone foundation rises out of the ground two and a half feet. I built a 2x4 frame, on the flat edge so it’s only 2” thick, placed a 2’x8’ sheet of pink styrofoam insulation between the top and bottom rails, and covered with dark gray metal roofing. The top edge of the metal has 45 degree flashing that seals it to the yellow bricks. The bottom of the metal is buried into the ground around 4 inches or so.

I also built a deck which is at the height of the doors, no step into the house, Dad’s in a wheelchair after all. This height is the same as the stone foundation so the metal is mostly unseen, and unmaintained; thus metal roofing instead of something more charming. No painting, no mice chewing through.

The deck wraps around the entire house, aside from the carport. It’s is on average around 15-20 feet wide, with the longest side around 80 feet. There are five sets of stairs and one 3’x6’ hydraulically operated lift/elevator platform for a wheel chair, instead of a ramp. That lift has been quite handy for heavy items I don’t want to carry up the stairs to deck level.

Ah, yes, it would be nice to share a picture. I’ll try to keep my post to one or two thousand words; a picture or two. smile

On to your cabin.

Originally Posted by Gerda
Basement -- we -- wait a second -- I! I! Just me!

Perfect!

Feels kind of weird, doesn’t it? For 30+ years everything has been we, us, and our’s. Me, my, I - I haven’t been this self centred for a long time. Lol.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I have a real basement under the bedrooms and then under the main living space it is a crawl space and was supposedly insulated when we put in a foundation but I don't know how well they did it. Basement is not heated, but I want to make this basement a living space...

Originally Posted by Gerda
I think I am gonna get one unit for two of the bedrooms to start and do the temporary insulation and see how it goes.

Originally Posted by Gerda
it is very damp down there, and freezing. It doesn't freeze actually but it's cold. I have my washer/dryer down there too. One side is wet, the side that is more underground with no window.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I want to start by getting a dehumidifier, and I want to order it this week, so I need your advice!

Moisture in a basement is pretty common. Especially an unused or un-lived in one. Once it is a more living space, with heat, the moisture problem will lessen and a dehumidifier will work just fine.

Question for you. Do you have a floor drain in the basement? I am going to guess probably yes, the washer and dryer are in the basement after all. I am also guessing the dryer is vented outside, if not vent it to the outside; lots of moisture from dryer exhaust. Some have used the exhaust air as a heat source, but when a moisture problem already exists, not a great idea.

Let’s fix the moisture. Yes, buy a dehumidifier and get it running right now. My basement is the entire house and a full basement with no windows. It has three foot thick granite foundation walls and a concrete floor. It was very damp.

I bought a dehumidifier from the hardware store. The largest portable unit I could get. It is regular extension cord plug in - 115V. These work really well. Set your desired humidity level, around 50%, and it will run as needed. Mine basically never shuts off, during the more humid months. My basement is nice and dry. The dried out air will mix and swirl with the moist air; all the way into the crawl space. My storage pantry type room, is in the other side of the basement from the floor drain and dehumidifier. There are two walls in between, creating three separate areas in the basement, and the storage room is dried out from the dehumidifier. My dehumidifier is basically next to the west wall and affects the entire 1500 square foot basement.

Dehumidifier: Go to the local hardware store and buy your dehumidifier and get it going. Buy a dehumidifier with a optional drain hose attachment; usually a garden hose which can be cut to length. The default is the built in bucket which requires daily dumping. The drain hose bypasses that and therefore the unit can run more unattended. Place the dehumidifier by the floor drain and run the hose to it. This work well and requires much less attention.

However, the air filter does get dirty and the hose can get plugged, so some maintenance is still required.

Heat: Yes. Heat your basement. This affects the humidity as well as comfort level. Warn air can hold more humidity. And by the way, the air does require a certain level of humidity for comfort and to keep the wood in the house healthy. Like I said, around 50% in the basement seems to be a good level, the rest of the house being affected and finding the correct balance. Showering, dishes, cooking, etc. all adding humidity.

For right now, today, place a portable heater in the basement as well as the dehumidifier. Not right next to it, but it can be close if you only have one electrical outlet. I am picturing the full height area of the basement is around 1000 or so square feet; a 115V 750/1500W ceramic fan forced heater would do nicely. Set it on 750W and set the temperature to 20C and let it run. If it cannot reasonable keep up due to no insulation set it on 1500W. This is just a temporary heating source until the basement is finished.

The bedroom heater and insulation sounds like it is the next item that needs to be addressed. I’ve something to suggest to you, now that I have a more complete picture:

Install a furnace in the basement, in the laundry room/utility room area that you will be designing. Run ducts along the basement ceiling and put floor vents into the bedrooms and other main floor rooms - one or two hot air vents and one cold air return to each room. I’ve found placing the hot air vent under the window keeps them mostly frost free and we don’t place furniture in front of windows (that would defeat the purpose of a window) so the vent is always clear.

The ceiling run basement duct work will also provide heat for your basement and needed air circulation for entire cabin. Install ceiling hot air and cold air vents in the various basement rooms and areas. This will also help (a lot) with the humidity. Air quality will be better, comfort, etc... through out the entire cabin, including the crawl space.

With a full basement under the two bedrooms, and plans (or a wish) to turn the basement into a living space, a fan forced furnace is a great investment. Cost-wise it is probably the same as doing the room individually, maybe even less. The upside and benefits are much higher. Along with future considerations like central air conditioning.

Cutting a few floor vent into the main floor rooms and tying them into a duct system is pretty quick, especially with an empty basement. In days you could have central heat and air flow throughout the cabin. The wall mounted heater would be removed and provide extra wall space for other comforts of home. And less noise, the whisper quiet fan is in the basement.

Install the temporary bedroom insulation and remove the now extraneous heaters.

Basement insulation: Frame the outside basement walls using 2x4’s or 2x6’s depending on how much insulation you would like. My suggestion, taking into consideration your eco-sense and the fact that you want a livable space, use 2x6’s and pink styrofoam insulation. Remember the previous dew point conversation, utilize styrofoam and prevent the freeze/thaw point from happening within an open cell insulation material.

Install the electrical outlet boxes you want and need. Run the wiring. Staple up a vapour barrier on the 2x6 studs.

Basement walls: Design your living space (done before now actually so you know where to run the duct work and stuff) and build the interior walls. Laundry room, utility room, living room or whatever. Run the electrical throughout the basement.

Basement floor: There is a nice subfloor product that is click together squares of plywood with rubber feet on the underside. This provides a gap from the concrete floor so the plywood doesn’t rot, and a nice flat smooth floor to install the finish flooring upon.

Basement ceiling: Given it is a basement the height is most likely not that great. The duct work may have had to been run along a wall edge and boxed in, unless a dropped ceiling is possible. No big deal. Box in the duct work.

Finished product: Install ceiling tiles, wall material, and flooring. Add the couch and large screen TV, put on Lord of Rings and invite DnJ over. smile

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OMG you guys rock! I wish all handymen were as speedy in replying and planning (and execution) as you two!

I have a lot of reading material here. I have skimmed and so far I am freaking out that you want me to go back to dirty fuel with a furnace after our minisplit victory. But I will read over again. I am very excited for the portrait you have painted of a finished, cozy house. (Cut to two years later until I actually do it all.)

Meanwhile in preparation for the basement movie party -- this week in one of my courses I am teaching C.S. Lewis' "The Inner Ring." I use it with the movie 8-Mile, if you can believe it! But I think you will really like the essay, just google it with "full text" and you can find it easily. CS Lewis and Tolkien were close friends, you probably know that; and I often wonder if the idea of the ring as representative of the evil in unfettered will came from that essay. In a certain way it describes what happened to our MLCers.

Hugs to you both for taking so much time to help with my projects.

Did I tell you that I had to fix a sink at my rental in the city? I watched a bunch of youtube videos, bought a pipe cutter and installed the new pipes with trap and everything myself! Granted, it was still a little funky and my friend's husband had to facetime me a little and direct how to seal it with some repair tape, but for the first time in a year the sink isn't leaking!

Last edited by Gerda; 10/12/20 05:00 PM.

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Hi Gerda

Originally Posted by Gerda
I am freaking out that you want me to go back to dirty fuel with a furnace after our minisplit victory.

Electrical furnace, if your service can handle it. Electricity is very clean. And ducting is a step towards geothermal.

There is nothing wrong with minisplit. I just saw an opportunity to rearrange things; like the birthstones of my Mom’s ring; to effectively alleviate and resolve several cabin concerns giving you even more of what you want.

Congratulations on the sink repair. You do the hands on, and I’ll work the room. smile

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I have many things to say but little time to say them. First and foremost, I was GUFFAWING that you remembered about "she's workin da room." You may be charming, but no one can work a room like me in that particular business that shall remain nameless, so I hereby knight you SIR FIX A LOT. I will continue to supply hot beverages and naimmoooo bars.

OK, OK, I'll keep fixing.

So without telling you anything about the incredible rollercoaster of my court case or anything relating to MLC except that having to do everything myself is the outcome of MLC --

I think I need to order the dehumidifier so I have been reading eight million reviews. What do you think of the Vremi Dehumidifier to be found on evil Amazon? I think my basement is about 30 by 10 (feet), so I wasn't sure also what size to get. And I am looking up all the floor and wall insulating but I still fail to understand how I can do all that stuff until I truly figure out the dampness issue. The plywood with feet that you describe sounds AWESOME so please tell me what it's called so I can try to find it. But still, won't the framing get damp underfoot and against the walls and with the dehumidifer hose snorting into the drain hole? And what about radon? (I watched a bunch of videos on earth sheltered houses too.) There is a floor drain and all sorts of basementy-wish-a-man-would-fix-this stuff by the pump and the on demand water heater and the creepy crawlies and the incredibly stupid choice to use PLYWOOD as the back of the various pipes and under the pump so it's all rotting. That's at the far end, and then as you approach the other end, where the land slopes but still only for very small windows (for now!) at the top, it gets dryer and only the air is cold and damp.

I am looking at your furnace idea but I think I have to do the mini split just because of ease of installation for my extremely short window of going up there.

My D will be with her dad the weekend I have to go and S15 as usual refuses to go and I can't get even my best friend to meet me there (she moved really far away) so I am gonna be totally alone trying to start these projects. I actually put an ad on a local site to hire a carpenter for the day, so we'll see if I can get a husband-for-hire for a day of help. Imagine actually being able to ask sweetly for help and direct the project and no one tells you how horrible you are, how you destroyed their life, and how they won't lift a finger to help someone who has spent her life emasculating them, pulls money out of your wallet and texts his OW the whole time and at one point leaves his phone in bed when he goes drunkenly to bathroom (unusually sleeping in same bed but far far away of course) and something goes wrong and the phone starts verbalizing texts coming in from OW that you thought wasn't even OW anymore? Granted, I will have to pay for the help, but still, what a relief to just work alongside someone who doesn't hate you and might not steal from you!

OK, so we got to MLC after all.

Last edited by Gerda; 10/14/20 03:16 AM.

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P.S. It's prime day and so there are a couple dehumidifiers on sale for the next 15 hours. Waykar or Vacplus, can't tell if they are big enough for my sitch.

Too bad there is no deMLCifier.


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Hi Gerda

I did a quick search on Amazon and I think I saw the dehumidifier you are considering. It is rated for 1500 sq ft which will be sufficient. Will pull out of the air around 22 pints of moisture in 24 hours. Looks good. Ensure it has a drain hose option or it will need to be emptied daily.

I’m at work and will talk more later. But, there is sale on! smile

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Good Morning Gerda

Did you order a dehumidifier?

The plywood with feet: Look up “subfloor panels”. They come in a few different sizes. The main ones are 2’x2’ and 2’x4’. My preference would be the 2’x4’; it doesn’t really matter, just ensure the seams are staggered (with 2’x4’ there are less seams). There are even insulated subfloor panels. I might consider that option especially with the living space vision in mind. They are not much more money and would make it more comfortable, ie warmer floor surface.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I am looking up all the floor and wall insulating but I still fail to understand how I can do all that stuff until I truly figure out the dampness issue.

From what I understand there is moisture but no water running through the walls, not an actual “leak” with puddling and such.

Let the dehumidifier works it’s magic and dry out the air. This will dry out the old plywood and other materials.

Originally Posted by Gerda
won't the framing get damp underfoot and against the walls and with the dehumidifer hose snorting into the drain hole?

The drain hose flows at the rate of drips, moisture condensed out of the air. It takes all day to fill a bucket, well 22 pints. It is pretty slow, no snorting.

Originally Posted by Gerda
There is a floor drain and all sorts of basementy-wish-a-man-would-fix-this stuff by the pump and the on demand water heater and the creepy crawlies and the incredibly stupid choice to use PLYWOOD as the back of the various pipes and under the pump so it's all rotting. That's at the far end, and then as you approach the other end, where the land slopes but still only for very small windows (for now!) at the top, it gets dryer and only the air is cold and damp.

Basementy stuff. Well, it’s a good thing that all that is in the basement. smile

When building and replacing the present rotten wood, use pressure treated materials. These resist rot and damage from moisture.

For the outside wall framing utilize the pressure treated lumber. Insulated the wall, between the 2x4’s or 2x6’s, with pink styrofoam, and install the vapour barrier. The inner wall framing can be regular lumber, although just in case I would use pressure treated for the bottom plate. And for the minimal amount of framing; it is a small basement; you could just use pressure treated everywhere. There would be less waste and easier to purchase.

For those places that require plywood backing or have rotten plywood, use pressure treated plywood.

Once the basement is sealed up, it will feel much better down there. And it will keep out all those creepy crawlies.

Does the floor or cabin heave? Basement walls are not load bearing and are usually floating walls. That means they are attached to the ceiling, the floor of the cabin, and built to 3 or 4 inches from the floor. There is a bottom plate on the floor and a bottom plate on the wall framing. Large guide pins; nails; keep the wall framing in line with the actual floor mounted bottom plate and allow it to rise and fall with any heaving the floor may do. The finishing wall material is not attach to the bottom-most bottom plate, there is a gap. This is hidden by the floor trim that is attached to the bottom-most bottom plate.

Originally Posted by Gerda
My D will be with her dad the weekend I have to go and S15 as usual refuses to go and I can't get even my best friend to meet me there (she moved really far away) so I am gonna be totally alone trying to start these projects. I actually put an ad on a local site to hire a carpenter for the day, so we'll see if I can get a husband-for-hire for a day of help. Imagine actually being able to ask sweetly for help and direct the project and no one tells you how horrible you are, how you destroyed their life, and how they won't lift a finger to help someone who has spent her life emasculating them, pulls money out of your wallet and texts his OW the whole time and at one point leaves his phone in bed when he goes drunkenly to bathroom (unusually sleeping in same bed but far far away of course) and something goes wrong and the phone starts verbalizing texts coming in from OW that you thought wasn't even OW anymore? Granted, I will have to pay for the help, but still, what a relief to just work alongside someone who doesn't hate you and might not steal from you!

OK, so we got to MLC after all.

It’s ok! All that MLC stuff is never that far away. We lived with it. It’s part of us, part of the LBS. Embrace it, for it has helped define who you are.

Too bad S15 refuses to go to the cabin and you will be starting this work alone. If Sir Fix A Lot lived closer, he’d probably be there helping. He is helping spend your money on the ideas, it would be nice to help install and see it come to life.

Hope it goes well.

Have a great weekend.

D


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Oh my gosh, those subfloor panels! Heaven! There are several options and they start at R1.7 then 3 then up to 7 for another brand. Should I go to a high R value or go for whatever they have at the local Home D?

There is no way I can do all those cuts myself. I think I have a circular saw there, not sure if it works. I hope I can find someone to come over since Sir Fix A Lot is far.

I can't believe we've had the place for so long without taking care of all these issues.

And you should see the roof at my city place. Despite the time I fixed one leak (remember that gross story?) the whole roof is disaster. Can't afford to put in a new roof obviously but also playing a race against time, don't want to fix anything until equity is settled.

More later, just sending my first question about the R value. THANK YOU, Sir F


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Hello Gerda

I’d use whatever they have locally.

There is a cost vs savings scenario to consider. At some point spending more and more on higher and higher r-value has less and less savings. And personally, I think it is a good idea to keep the basement floor a bit warm. Using the R 3 should suffice.

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Excellent tips, as ever. I will respond more later to the rest. It's all quite exciting to think I can make my place comfy cozy and charge more. I am watching videos on wet bathrooms too and have a great idea for that. The kitchen and bath at my place are so ridiculously unfinished all these years ,and I realized that if I bring everything up a notch, I can charge more rent, so I am going to start project by project.

And by then our other youtube channel will be such a huge success that we can do a second one, DnJ and Gerda's Houseflip Extravaganza. We can use the DnJ and Gerda (and every old timer here) LBS model -- take something that looks like a wreck that got abandoned and restore it to what it was meant to be, a well-insulated, air-tight, light-filled, fruit-tree-laden, nature-connected open-for-visitors BEAUTY.


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I am putting together my Home D (as opposed to DnJ) order. This is going to be an expensive weekend (esp as I now have to rent a car every time I go to my cabin!) but soon I will be saving big dollars on heating costs.

I put an ad out for a carpenter helper type so I will not be doing this totally alone if one follows through. But it occurred to me to be a little scared of being a lady alone working with some unknown stranger. I do have neighbors but not really in earshot!

I am getting those dricore subfloor panels for the basement floor; they are so awesome! But here is a question -- if I use those, do I need to put framing under the wall foam panels? Seems like that is redundant even with the heaving issue. I watched this one video that seemed very good and the guy seemed at least as trustworthy and wise as the green-caped hero DnJ Fixalot, and he just jammed those foam suckers straight against the wall but cut 'em tight and taped the seams and sealed the outer edges with spray foam, which is already an old friend of mine from my mouse adventures.

Did you ever think when you first charted your perilous journey through the storms of MLC that you'd find yourself here, forced to give nightly detailed instructions on how to insulate a basement of a mountain cabin to an unknown lady many miles away, and miles to go before we sleep, and miles to go before we sleep?

Here is a song for today by way of thanks: Taro by AltJ.

Insulating a basement is some good GAL. I also finished a massive writing project I have been (rarely able to be) working on for about seven years. Gerda climbing out of the ditch.

Last edited by Gerda; 10/20/20 05:04 AM.

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Thought that I had clicked in to a DIY forum by mistake for a moment 😁.

Joking aside, projects like this are perfect for occupying the mind and body. Plus you will improve a part of your life too. All win win. Good luck with the project.


R 25 years
M 14 years
S11 & S13
Working on it alone since Oct 2014
M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years)
Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr.
Next R chat Aug'17
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Hello Gerda

I just got home (9:30pm). Terrible blowing snow, couldn’t see the road. A far bit of my journey was at 10 km/hr.

I would install the insulated subfloor right up to the outside wall. Then anchor the bottom “guide” board to the floor.

Oh, yes, spray foam. Wonderful stuff.

Virtually helping a friend insulate her mountain cabin was certainly unforeseen. Like I’ve said, this journey has many blessings.

Originally Posted by Gerda
Insulating a basement is some good GAL. I also finished a massive writing project I have been (rarely able to be) working on for about seven years. Gerda climbing out of the ditch.

Yay!

A seven year writing project. Congratulations. Wow!

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I love to see how the relationships we have made here are real, and down to earth. The wealth of knowledge from the friends made here is not limited to relationships!!

Hugs

Grace


M: 56
H: 57
S: 22
D: 20

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Oooh, Gracie! Glad to see you stopping by! I am esp glad because I get to have Grace IRL!

Meanwhile -- I made it to my cabin. I had to rent a car and took an SUV into which I packed 50 subfloor panels, a roll of cotton canvas I bought at a fabric store for 6 bucks a yard and a whole bunch of salvage stuff I have been collecting in my city over the last month for various projects here. First time I have been without either child in... ever? I sang to whatever music I wanted on the radio and watched the trees get more and more orange and red and yellow as I headed north, watch the sun setting over an orchard, made it to place in the dark and took me like an hour to unload the car under moonlight and starlight. And the front porch was full of the foamboard to insulate the walls of the basement and the ceilings of the bedrooms.

This place was our wedding "gift" -- we asked people to contribute to the downpayment instead of a registry. I was thinking as I was walking back and forth from car with the panels in the beautiful fall air looking at the mountain in silhouette of moonlight about how it ended up being MINE, and how when we bought it, I didn't even really want it. H was unhappy at an earlier stage in our relationship and he wanted to get away from the city. We almost broke up actually and then he decided he would move to a nearby beach town and split his time between there and my place in the city. It was too expensive so he started looking in the mountains,and eventually his goal of escaping became our project to have together, and even part of our wedding, as we married nearby and closed just after the wedding, with the gifts completing the downpayment. I learned to love it here and now it's mine and I am even making money on it. He stopped doing anything here for years, now I am fixing things and making it even more viable as a business. Since Covid started, I was able to cover my mortgage and all my groceries with the rentals. It's another symbol of turning the wreck these MLCers make of our lives into something we can seed as our own flowering vine. They chose a new life path,and we tried so hard to stop them. I stood for seven years. Ultimately I was thrust onto a life path I didn't want. But now I feel like I am waking up and figuring out where to go from here. The pain of losing the path I planned doesn't go away but in my case it became so clear that I couldn't stand in the same way anymore. Now I am standing for my kids, grieving the life they didn't get, trying to plant some new seed in what seemed like barren ground.

Still trapped in divorce land but maybe one day that will finally be over too. I still pray for my H, but not for him to come back to me, only for him to find his way back to God.

Back to the task at hand -- I am gonna set up my new dehumidfier now but I noticed that the PVC drainpipe is still leaking onto the basement floor so I don't know if this is gonna throw a wrench (pun intended!) in my plans to put in the subfloor tomorrow. I hired a guy to come and help me with these projects so hopefully all will go well in phase one of Operation Insulation. Thanks for all the advice, DnJ! I will keep you posted.

Last edited by Gerda; 10/24/20 01:56 AM.

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Good Morning Gerda

What a wonderful post. The trip seemed to get better the further you got from the city. More colourful leaves, a sunset, and unloading the supplies while awash in moonlight and starlight.

It probably feels strange without the kids. It’s kind of funny how they are always there, always around - and then they aren’t. Enjoy the downtime.

Of course you are having a working holiday. Downtime isn’t quite on the menu. smile

You are so right on how we don’t want that life’s path we’ve been thrust upon. And then, almost miraculously, things become clear. That path, we take ownership of it. We decide to journey forward and see where our feet take us.

I am very proud of your rolling up your sleeves and digging into your project. Fixing a few holes here and there, replacing what’s broken, making it your own, making it better, making it what you want - both cabin and heart.

I’ve found my external projects have gone hand in hand with my internal ones. My recent, and still ongoing, decluttering of the basement occurred in my house and my heart it seems. I see the same within you. Turning that basement into a living space - cabin and heart. (((Gerda)))

For what it worth, do not grieve the life your kids didn’t get, rejoice and love the life they have. That barren ground, only seems barren. I’m pretty sure I’m preaching to the choir on this. For I believe you know.


Throw a wrench - lol. Good one.

Good getting the dehumidifier setup and working. What drainpipe is leaking onto the floor? Where does it come from? Reroute or extend it over and into the floor drain. It shouldn’t cause too much problem with the subfloor install.

It’s good to hear you hired a helper.

Originally Posted by Gerda
DnJ! I will keep you posted.

Please do. I’m excited to hear about your progress.

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Insert photo of Gerda collapsed. Nothing in cabin is even remotely consistent so it took many hours to get the panels cut (to fit all these completely irregular spaces) to cover them with canvas, and I ended up having to work with the helper on this the entire time so I didn't get that far with subfloor and there are 4 x 8 foot foam panels blocking the porch.

BUT I did get a lot done. The ceilings are almost done and I put in about 1/3 of the basement worth of sublfloor and learned how to do it. Tomorrow I have to get this place in order for renters by 2 pm so I don't know if I can do anymore, esp as there is a cord of wood to stack and my limbs have turned to jelly after my long day of warrior work. I am tempted to call the guy to come and work on it for me, trying to decide if I can spend any more money on labor but it would be so nice to have it all done.

I think I am going to do some cleaning so I can sit here in a clean house with a cup of tea. But I can't get off this chair, so can you start it for me?

You are not preaching to the choir. I have no regrets about standing per se but I am still periodically awash in regrets for marrying him in the first place. I do think I loved his best self, and he could have become what I thought he was. But looking back now, I see so many things that I thought were just how men were, or how much any man would ever love me (in an extremely limited way), and I wish I had listened to what I knew. That said, God must have wanted D and S here, and so he must have big plans for them, and me too. For one thing, I don't know how I would ever have found faith, but there are many other reasons I already see God's plan for me. But the point is, I do still have regrets and grief for my kids. You have four of them, and they have each other, and grandparents and a very vibrant life. Mine don't. My family kind of fell apart and I saw my life with H as building a new family since mine was such a disaster. So mine are really really lonely, and I do have a lot of sorrow about that, and about how thin our family life seems so much of the time. But I know they love me a lot and I hope one day they will understand how hard I tried.

Thin moon over the mountain, stars blinking, dog curled in a ball on the sofa after a hard day of chasing chipmunks, the little string lights on the porch and the darkness beyond. I have no flashlight and forgot to collect kindling so I think no fire tonight.

I just noticed on the main page that a huge number of people have read this thread. It is strange because mostly it's only you, DnJ who is replying on my page! I wonder who these people are and what they see in my thread -- what they see of me, and my journey, but also how it does or doesn't help to read about it. Hey, you there, stranger who is reading my thread, what do you think of it all?

Last edited by Gerda; 10/25/20 12:36 AM.

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Hello Gerda

I bet you will sleep good tonight. And not just from the fresh mountain air. smile

It sounds like an impressive amount was accomplished. Most of the ceiling and 1/3 of the floor. Excellent. You are quite the handyman, handywoman, handyperson... you are quite handy.

Yes, there are many who are reading your thread. It’s just over 3000 right now. And that is only people who read while logged in. The guest views are not counted.

Enjoy your rest and the tea. Get those jelly-arms back in shape for you got a cord of wood to stack. Maybe bring your helper back, it would be so nice to have phase one of Operation Insulation done.

I just went to see the crescent moon. Alas, it is cloudy. No moon, no stars. The entire sky is a faint white glow from the reflection of lights upon the low cloud ceiling. It is also -7C, so me standing on my deck in my slippers, jeans, and T-shirt, was a quick event. Brrrrrr.

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Hi Gerda! I read your words! I am one of the thousands!

You have such specific questions (mostly to DnJ) that I feel I am able to read, but not share much. However, I enjoy reading your updates and journey, even if I don't have any knowledge about insulation. wink

I hope your weekend continues to go smoothly and you have a cloudless night to witness the crescent moon in the countryside.

(((gerda)))

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Hallo, Sage, and thank you for the post and the hug! I did get to see the moon and stars most gorgeously.

When I got back to the city I had to pull a big tick out of my THIGH! I don't know how that fellow made his way up my jeans. Insert joke about my unrequested LBS chastity here.

I adore DnJ and we are old friends at this point but it is still a mystery why my thread often has become a conversation between two! But as you say, this far in, my questions get pretty specific and half the time I don't post about what is bothering me the most, or the latest D horror because I already know the advice I will get (e.g., it's in my head but I am plugging my ears and shouting LALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!) or I am just sick of hearing myself whine about it.

Last edited by Gerda; 10/26/20 01:26 PM.

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Good Morning Gerda

How goes the cabin project?

Did you finish laying down the subfloor? Did you get the wood piled up?

Are you starting the outside walls in the basement or mini-split heater next?

By the way, my commute this morning was under a dark and star-filled sky. And just as I rose over the hill that is around 20 minutes from city and work, a meteor. It’s white hot sparkling trail blazed across my view. What a glorious start to a day.

Hope all is well.

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Originally Posted by DnJ
You are quite the handyman, handywoman, handyperson... you are quite handy.



I don't know why but this made me laugh all evening.

I didn't rest. I kept working all night til 2 am just to finish the ceilings. Basement I had to haul 15 8 x 4 sheets down the stairs but didn't get to install any. I was cutting the ceiling sheets with a bread knife and that was just about the worst job ever, esp as I kept mismeasuring. The helper guy had not even the best saw but his cuts were so straight! Next time I rent a saw. (Or just get the guy back.) Then the whole places was covered with insulation bits and the previous renters had clearly not dusted or mopped the place their whole 7 week stay, so I had to clean for 5 hours and finished just in time to be outta there before they arrived. Met a nice new neighbor who bought a place up the road and is renovating to AirB and decided to be her friend despite competitor factor. I couldn't get the hose hooked up to the dehumidifier and so I am hoping I can get someone to go by while the renters are there so I can keep my basement dry. It really worked! And even with floor only 1/3 one and only one foamboard up on basement wall, it was drier and warmer down there. And my fabric covered panels on the bedroom ceilings were also miraculously better than when there was nothing -- it was toasty (at least relative to before). Exciting!

Originally Posted by DnJ
I just went to see the crescent moon. Alas, it is cloudy. No moon, no stars. The entire sky is a faint white glow from the reflection of lights upon the low cloud ceiling. It is also -7C, so me standing on my deck in my slippers, jeans, and T-shirt, was a quick event. Brrrrrr.


This also made me laugh. I do this too but I am quaking with cold in 45 degrees. Then I realized that all this time you must be using Celcius. It is still freaking cold where you live and I don't know how you do it, but it's not quite as bad as I thought in fahrenheit.

Last edited by Gerda; 10/26/20 01:36 PM.

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Hello (handy) Gerda

I’m glad to hear the basement is drying out. And you can already feel a difference. Yay!

For cutting the styrofoam with a bread knife. Lol. Yes, what a mess that would make. smile <giggle>

Use a razor knife. Those retractable blade knives. While working at a table or work bench. Measure and mark the line you want to cut. Then lay a straight edge, one of those 2x4’s, or whatever along the line. Run the razor knife gently down the edge and along the line. You are not trying to cut through all 2 inches in one go. Just score the line a few times with the knife.

(Note: Have the blade fully extended. Yes it is very sharp, but you are not pushing through the cut, you are working gently. The big reason for having the blade fully extended is those first scoring cuts. You don’t want the knife handle to contact the straight edge; that messes up the line and causes the next part, the deepening of the cut, to be off square. You also need a blade around 4 inches to cut at the correct angle and depth for that insulation.)

Then remove the straight edge and lay the styrofoam over the edge of the table or work bench with that cut line an inch or so passed the edge. Put a weight, like the 2x4, or book, or whatever on the edge furthest from you to hold it down against the bench. Then gently run the knife down the cut line while pressing the side closest to you (shorter side) of the insulation panel down, so as to slightly open the cut and not to bind the knife. A few more passes and the insulation is cut smooth and straight with very little mess.

-7C is 18F. Yep, pretty chilly. Apparently not t-shirt weather. smile

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For those of the 3000 who thought this thread was about insulation --

The Path to Acceptance
A Poem By DnJ Sir Fixalot of the Green Cape

Hello (handy) Gerda,

I’m glad to hear your grief is drying out.
And you can already feel a difference.
Yay!

For cutting the pain with justifying, arguing, pleading, trying to figure out how to fix it --
well, that is like cutting 2-inch thick styrofoam with a bread knife.
Yes, what a mess that would make.

Use a razor knife.
Those retractable blade knives.
While working at a table or work bench or climbing a mountain
or looking at a crescent moon at -7 degrees --
18 fahrenheit --
in your t-shirt
after cleaning the MLCer's 8 brooms out your basement
and wedding and party dresses out of your closet.

Measure and mark the line you want to cut.
Then lay a straight edge, one of those 2x4’s from a wise friend
or whatever along the line.
Run the razor knife gently down the edge of your heart and along the line.
You are not trying to cut through all of your heart in one go.
Just score the line a few times with the knife.

(Note: Have the blade fully extended.
Yes it is very sharp, but you are not pushing through the cut, you are working gently.
The big reason for having the blade fully extended is those first scoring cuts.
You don’t want the knife handle to contact the straight edge of your soul;
that messes up the line and causes the next part, the deepening of the cut,
to be off square.

(You also need a blade around 4 inches
to cut at the correct angle and depth for that,
but that of course
is the kind of blade your MLCer used.)

Then remove the straight edge
and lay your heart over the edge of all the days of your life with that cut line
an inch or so past the edge.
Don't be afraid of that edge;
you won't fall off it.
Put a weight, like the 2x4's you heard from wise friends
or a book on abuse
or the bible,
or whatever on the edge furthest from you
to hold it down against the bench.
You'll need to hold your heart and mind down a little.
They will fight this process.
Then gently run the knife down the cut line
while pressing the side closest to you (the most painful side) down,
so as to slightly open the cut
and not to bind the knife.
The knife will not stay in there if you do this right.
A few more passes
and the pain is cut smooth and straight
with very little mess.

You will find that the mess you made
fits neatly in a couple of bags
on the back of a pick up truck
bumping over the ruts in the rain
and that you are whistling as you drive
and remembering a wise friend.

Last edited by Gerda; 10/27/20 01:31 PM.

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Good Morning Gerda

A most apt poem.

Touching, the details you brought forth. Brooms, bread knife, wedding dress, a rutted road in the rain, 2x4’s, the bible, heart, soul, and a caring friend.

I am very glad you walked my road with me, and I the honour to walk your road with you.

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Gerda, this poem is a work of art—a beautiful collaboration between you two, and just what I needed to read on Halloween.


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Lovely, Gerda! Thanks for sharing.

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Thanks, Sage and Cardinal! It wrote itself, in a way.

DnJ, I am not sure I could have done it without you. You became a black belt in LBS right away, but hopefully I made the walk a little more fun and a little more laden with poetic meaning!

Here is a crazy update.

I had court today, via zoom. I actually had court last week but I insist every time that there is a court reporter there to record it and every time they end up having to adjourn because they don't have one and I insist. Now that I always have a transcript, I am able to hold the judge accountable for things she said and also to force H's L to lie less.

So anyway today was the rescheduled appt. Last week only the court attorney came and tried to get me to back down about the reporter. This week the judge came, opens the meeting by saying,"Well, you insisted you wanted me here, so what did you want to talk about?"

I had filed an OSC three months ago to get her to enforce an order from last October that forced H to appraise the house and let me buy him out. Granted, it's Covid, so I can't get a loan for that until our rents return,but I wanted to get everything settled and give him a downpayment somehow. The order doesn't say how long I have to pay him, so I was just going with that.

The judge did not make a decision or even read my documentation.Nor did she make a decision on their OSC, which tried to strip me of all my rights, overturn the first order, etc. She got us to agree to split the cost of the appraisal that was supposed to be paid for by H. But after the hearing, they tried to make me pay for the whole thing. So I drafted a global resolution to settle every open issue and define the payout schedule for the buyout, which was three payments over the next three years, and which mentioned our mutual desire to let D11 finish at her local middle school before any forced move, should I not be able to refinance in full by then and have to sell in order to pay H. It was a compromise, as I plan to go for sole use til 18 if we go to trial.

Well, they redlined EVERYTHING, even the give-away line that said that the appraisal would be used to determine the equity.

So I told them, you can do the appraisal as per the court order from last October and pay for it yourself. I am not splitting it or paying for anything unless I have in writing that it's being used to fulfill the order or at minimum to determine the equity. They refused to agree to that so I I filed another OSC a month ago, asking that the judge rule on my first one. The Ex Parte office was like, "Whaaa? People don't do that and she probably won't sign, as your other OSC is scheduled to be heard already." I told them, "Believe me, she is not planning to hear any arguments or make a decision. I want to pay the filing fee and show her I am serious about getting a ruling on this." And she signed it.

So that's what we were doing today.

It was the usual scream festival, she hadn't read any of the docs and didn't know what was going on or what the issues were. H was off screen and she asked that he get on screen, so he said he had to go and get his computer, and stayed on audio for a while during the first round of lies from his lawyer and dazed confusion and yelling from the judge. She kept threatening to send us to trial and I kept saying, "I agree, we need to go to trial. Please refer us." And then H appears finally on the screen, and I had my trusty paper doll shirt to cover his face so I wouldn't have to look at him or his dyed blond hair transplant (or sad crazy eyes, he looks so weird), and then I saw that he was EATING A BOWL OF CEREAL. He was sitting at a kitchen table chowing down. I looked at the judge and she didn't say anything, and I was so astonished, I forgot that I wasn't just at home and that I wasn't allowed to have a phone in the hearing, and I took a photo of the screen.

Well, the judge went CRAZY, screaming at me that I wasn't allowed to record, what do you think you are doing, etc. I apologized and said I wanted to record that moment but I forgot I wasn't allowed to have it and would delete it right away but she just screamed, "No, this is illegal! You can't do that! I'm leaving!" And LEFT THE MEETING. So it was just me and H on the screen. So I left.

So I guess we are finally going to be allowed to go to trial!

Last edited by Gerda; 11/02/20 06:18 PM.

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What the heck! I have no words. What is wrong with your judge!


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Good Morning Gerda

She just left?!? Oh my, you sure had some bad luck getting assigned this judge.

And H sitting there eating a bowl of cereal. Lol. I’d have taken a picture too. And keep the picture, if you want - it’s illegal blah blah blah, yeah whatever. Then get us in an actually courtroom and pay attention and do your job!

Gadzooks, I’m a bit riled apparently. Lol.

Next time take a screen shot less out in the open.

I am so proud of you for holding her and the system accountable. Never back down from having a court recorded present. You’ve been burnt before; hold their feet to the fire. Keep them accountable. Accountability is the bane of the unprepared, lazy, lying, and so forth.

I love how once they all started railroading you, redlining everything, you turned it all around and said - no you can do the appraisal as per court order. By the way, I’d hold them to that. That was agreed to, let H pay the full bill. You trying to meet half way is still met with resistance and further weaselling. You give an inch and they’ll take a mile.

Originally Posted by Gerda
”I agree, we need to go to trial. Please refer us."

Best line!

The judge threatened, and you agreed - let’s go to trial.

Threats are a poor choice at the best of times, and really ineffectual when one won’t follow through with them. As a judge she shouldn’t be threatening, should be even-keeled, level-headed, and so on - you know judge-like. smile

Your history of court transcripts would be an interesting read. Much fodder for overturning poor and unjust rulings from an ineffectual servant of the court. Her to show up and be so unprepared and unread of the submissions and be so ill-prepared is mind boggling.

Mantel-sized DnJ, and full size DnJ, are in your corner.

And yes, you helped make my path better. More fun and more meaningful.

On the list of words I figured for would be unlikely to be uttered by me today - Gadzooks was probably near the top. smile Lol. And look I used it twice. Haha

Have a great day Gerda.

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Well, first I wrote to court reporter, copying court and H's L, asking for a copy of the transcript.

Then a few hours later H's L wrote a staggering letter to the court in which he blamed me for everything, but esp not getting the appraisal, and threatened to file a motion to preclude all the "bogus" debts from trial and said that since I never paid H any of his "support" (which is what he always calls the monthly ED advances and I always have to correct it, he is trying to lay the groundwork for his claim for alimony at trial!!!) that H would need to move back to our city and into one of the rental units. And a whole bunch of other bullying threats. And asked that the judge would schedule oral arguments for all the open motions (there are like 5, including 3 for contempt against me from me and one for contempt against him from me, which is really just asking her to make him follow the order).

It has been a long while since I shared any of the goings on specifically, and it's interesting to see your and Scout's astonishment because this kind of thing is what I have been living through not here and there but almost weekly. Endless hearings like this. They almost always end with the court attorney shutting it down because of the pointless screaming. But the problem with court against a narcissist/MLCer is that no matter how calm and clear you are, the judge thinks you are at least half the problem. My children are never mentioned by anyone but me. And I have been particularly hard hit because my judge is so bad. She has been this lazy from day one but I think now she is panicking because she sees I am recording everything.

I filed a complaint with the Bar against H's lawyer for so much lying and fake documents and for physically threatening me (not sure if I wrote about that one last year) but they wrote back that if I am in the middle of the case, I have to complain to the judge, not the Bar. So that ain't going to happen. When I filed a complaint with the state against his broker, I didn't hear from that broker anymore. (A complaint to the BBB didn't do the trick but I am thinking of doing that anyway with H's L, or as a review on yelp.) I wish I could tell you his name, it's very Dickensianly accurate.

Speaking of which, DnJ, when was the last time you read Bleak House? There is an amazing version of it on the net, the reader is so amazing that I have listened to it three times in the last ten years. Maybe it's time to do it again, good way to get through housework.

I am a little freaked out and scared by H's L writing that letter but I am just going to correct his lies very succinctly so it's on record and try to keep waiting this out. I offered H a good downpayment (50K) now, and the rest in a year if rents return, or another partial payment then, with the rest when D goes to high school. She is able to walk to school now. But they said no. They are obsessed with lump sum.

I sure wish it was over though.

Last edited by job; 11/03/20 02:13 PM. Reason: Removed referenced name to another site

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P.S. Screenshot-- yes, the ease of taking a screenshot with no one knowing, and my total awareness of that, shows you just how deep was my state of astonishment. I was in a freefall of shock and awe. I had also taken a photo at the last conference because of the paper doll shirt, but it was before we started so no one noticed.


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Gerda, I am so sorry you are dealing with such a challenging judge! It must be so hard when you feel that you are not only fighting H, but also feeling like you have to defend yourself from the judge.

I know that there are good reasons that you are representing yourself, but this interaction concerns me and I am wondering if maybe you would consider getting some representation? There might be grounds to ask for a new judge, or it could be that having someone between you and the judge helps to better protect you and your interests? At the very least, representation could help you with supportive, friendly reminders of the rules of the game and also help keep H's attorney in line with the rules without needing the judge to be in the middle constantly.

Concluding a hearing due to endless screaming doesn't seem like very courtly decorum to me. Who is screaming and how can that be stopped?

I don't want to see you suffer in the long run due to courtroom bias, a bad judge or because H has representation and you do not. You have so much at stake, right now is not the time to muscle it out on your own if you can help it.

((Gerda))

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Sage, thank you for the kind words and wanting to defend me!

I don't know if you read my thread earlier but I have had three lawyers. It's kind of embarrassing actually! But the first one was going through something (MLC?) with her own divorce, her husband trying to commit suicide, etc., and she just never filed anything or did anything, kept disappearing, so I really had to fire her. And at that time my H said we could do a legal separation to split finances so I thought I would be okay on my own. That was a lie so I had to get another lawyer. My judge was too scary to go it alone, though I have been pro se for my business and did great. Then I hired another L I knew from somewhere else and he didn't understand MLC either so he kept trying to negotiate a settlement instead of filing for sole use or doing other things to put me in a stronger position. He and H's L always ended up in a screaming festival and could not negotiate anything. My H thought our house was worth double its value, refused to accept the appraised value, and demanded that I should pay him alimony though I make very little salary and have sole custody! Then my L's law partner had a heart attack so he had to double his caseload and again I was left with a L who kept not doing his job. Yes, this is true! Then he participated in coercing me into signing a horrible deal -- I was literally crying and saying, no no, I can't sign, and my H and his L were shouting that he would be moving back in and the judge was yelling at us and I was so scared I signed it. But it was such a bad agreement that it caused endless further battling since it was very unclear, and my L was just always working on other cases. So I hired a THIRD one, and this time I tried to spend a lot more so that I could get someone good. But this one did so many D cases that he was scared of my judge. He came into the case trying to fix a bad agreement but he let the judge and H's L step all over him, and dug me deeper into the hole without ever doing anything -- I don't even get child support!! He was just playing defense and apologizing to the judge. I was ready to fire him anyway, but was scared to go it alone even though I had never had a good L. I had given him a final task to accomplish to try to get a global resolution, he wasn't getting it done and was obsessed with my paying him faster (I had paid him like 15K was sending him $500 a week), and by then had charged me 30K for two months of work, most of which I was doing/prepping! Then Covid hit, and there was no longer any choice, as my business was shut down. So I went pro se.

And now, Sage, I am doing SO MUCH BETTER. I take the time to really file things properly, to get the documents together properly and to know everything I need to prove. I don't get confused about the facts and I am not afraid of the judge. I don't have to sit there silently while H's L screams and dominates, and I can force the court to have a court reporter every time so now the judge knows I am watching. She has a reputation in my city as the worst D judge. When I first got served, I spoke to a couple lawyers and they all said, "You'll be fine unless you get Judge X." Well, I got Judge X, insane H, and his evil L. I think my H owes him 80K right now and has already paid at least that much, probably way more. And we are talking about a guy who has no money, literally. He is divorcing me in order to get the equity from our house and doesn't really work much or pay child support. So his L I guess sees a sucker, and keeps racking up those bills, fighting over everything, even fully documented debts or agreements we made long ago.

This may all sound insane but this is the truth, my truth for two years and counting, after standing for 5 years before that. I was still standing for the first year or more of the D! Now I pray for my H's healing but not for a life with me, and I fight for my kids. But for me, worst case scenario is losing my home, but I will be okay.

And yesterday I realized something (when not thinking about the election).

I realized that in a certain way, I have been doing the same thing as my H, with my heart/mind. H is after me because he wants to feel psychologically free of me as the enslaver. He wants a lump sum, now, because he thinks that will finally liberate him and he can be happy. I can't pay the lump sum because I can't refinance until Covid is over, our rents are down too much. He won't wait. And wants to ruin my financially and not have to pay any of our debts or for our kids' needs. And because of that he is trying to destroy me and the kids.

But I am after the same thing in a certain way. I am desperate to be free of this, to shake off this snake biting my leg so I can really live again. I am not content to just wait it out. I obsess about ways to force him to resolve and I feel all the time like I can't live life or have any happiness until I do. So by always feeling enslaved by him, I am thinking in his way! By thinking that I can't start living until I am free of him. By wanting to get him his money fast, now, today, so I don't have to suffer under his rule. He has not seen or spoke to our son since May, 2019, our son won't talk to him. But I have our son, and we are very close. I get to have that kid in my life, and to see him grow into a great and interesting and complex and cool young man. I am still in our house, I am still making it work for my kids. I finished a huge writing project I started seven years ago, I am building my creative career and making enough at my day job to provide for our kids. I have a very strong faith, which I only came to when this started. I have many friends and people I care for. I try to serve others -- I bring an elderly neighbor dinner every other day since Covid started. I help immigrant girls apply to college. I have my upstate place that is all mine now, and I work on it and earn a little money on it. I have a forbearance on the mortgage so for now I have nothing to worry about with housing downstate.

So really I am already living, I have already achieved deep happiness if I can see that clearly. I just can't control what happened to my M and I can't stop my H from trying to persecute me. But his persecution is not ME. It's just persecution and I can handle it with grace, with God's help.

That's my new goal, to believe that, no matter how long H wants to stay stuck in this mire of divorce.

Last edited by Gerda; 11/04/20 02:23 PM.

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Good Morning Gerda

You have a great attitude. Think - 83 problems.

You have a great life. A interesting cool young man of a son, and a wonderful girl of a daughter.

The mole hills you deal with aren’t mountains. And you see clearly. And see beyond the small hills that are H, judge, D, and so on.

You are handling it with grace, dignity, and yes I believe God is watching over you.

D


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Hello Gerda

When is the next trip to the cabin?

I’m eager to hear how the remainder of the subfloor goes and the install of the walls.

Have you picked out a carpet yet? Rubber backed carpet is pretty easy to install; no stretching. There is also a “click” together carpet. Squares of carpet that jigsaw together. Just cut off the part you don’t need when you get to a wall using a bread knife...no, no, no... smile a razor knife, a carpet knife. Lol.

Have a wonderful day.

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Dear Gerda,

It has taken me so long to reply to your post... but my first thoughts when I read it were what an impressive human you are and thank you for sharing so much of your story. I am just wowed.

I am in awe of your strength and fortitude, your ability to keep a good attitude and you eclipsing your own FOO trauma to give your children a different parenting approach. You don't have a victim's mentality when one easily could in your situation. You have grace and strength in spades. I am sorry you have had such a struggle with H and your origin story and I know that the next chapter of Gerda's story is going to be the best one yet.

(((Gerda)))

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Originally Posted by Sage4


It has taken me so long to reply to your post... but my first thoughts when I read it were what an impressive human you are and thank you for sharing so much of your story. I am just wowed.

I am in awe of your strength and fortitude, your ability to keep a good attitude and you eclipsing your own FOO trauma to give your children a different parenting approach. You don't have a victim's mentality when one easily could in your situation. You have grace and strength in spades.

(((Gerda)))


WOW. I read this last week and it really sustained me all week! Thank you!!!


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Originally Posted by DnJ
Hello Gerda

I’m eager to hear how the remainder of the subfloor goes and the install of the walls.

Have you picked out a carpet yet? Rubber backed carpet is pretty easy to install; no stretching. There is also a “click” together carpet. Squares of carpet that jigsaw together. Just cut off the part you don’t need when you get to a wall using a bread knife...no, no, no... smile a razor knife, a carpet knife.

D


Much to report on this front but I have to find the time to do it! I will soon. Your advice is with me every time I am up there working, believe me. I even started recording our first video.

But we are going to have to talk about the vibe of our house flips. Carpet?! NO NO NO. Wood floors and stone only, with some kilim rugs scattered about.

Last edited by Gerda; 11/18/20 01:37 AM.

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If only I could tune in to DnJ and Gerda on HGTV, but following your adventures here is the next best thing. I echo Sage in that I so admire you, Gerda. I know I'm not alone when I say your fortitude, your kindness, your writing, and your remodeling skills are an inspiration.


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Hello Gerda

Originally Posted by Gerda
Carpet?! NO NO NO. Wood floors and stone only, with some kilim rugs scattered about.

OMG! LOL.

I thought you had said sometime earlier you wanted carpet.

I rip out all my carpet years ago and installed ceramic tiles in the back entrance room and bathrooms, and laminate flooring that looks like hardwood everywhere else in the house. So yes to no carpet. smile

I am considering redoing my laminate flooring and replacing it with engineered hardwood. The laminate on the 1st and 2nd floors didn’t stand up as well as I had hoped. The stuff in the attic/playroom is different and was the cheapest I could buy. It was for a playroom and got a lot of use/abuse over the years. And it still looks great! Good figure. So only two floors to replace. Like 3000 square feet.

I’m so glad you are having fun remodelling. And yes the vibe of your cabin is so you.

Well done!

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Quote
I am considering redoing my laminate flooring and replacing it with engineered hardwood. The laminate on the 1st and 2nd floors didn’t stand up as well as I had hoped. The stuff in the attic/playroom is different and was the cheapest I could buy. It was for a playroom and got a lot of use/abuse over the years. And it still looks great! Good figure. So only two floors to replace. Like 3000 square feet.


I haven't used it myself but the vinyl wood-look plank flooring seems to be really popular right now and apparently looks quite nice (and is cheaper and apparently more durable?). Eventually I would like to redo my downstairs all with some form of wood flooring but that might end up being my choice since I'd like it to go in the kitchen too.

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vinyl plank flooring is great! If you get the nicer stuff (there is a pretty wide range) it is completely waterproof and looks really good. I have the super cheap stick-on vinyl in the basement, because it leaks in heavy rains and I didn't want water to get trapped beneath the flooring, and it actually looks fantastic. Putting the nicer stuff in the bedroom now and the contractors said it is pretty much all they're doing these days rather than engineered hardwood. They all have it in their own homes too. Can go in the bathrooms and kitchen as well if you want.

And Gerda... let me add my voice to those who admire you deeply. The story about your Ls and then you finally standing up and managing it all on your own is pretty incredible. How good does it feel to take the reins of your own situation and know you're doing far better than all these professionals? You can do anything you want, and you'll kick @ss doing it.

one last little question on the refi-- have you talked to your bank recently? Just because rates are SO SO SO low right now, even with questionable rents it just might be doable, and they're incentivized to help find a way for you to make it work since you're in forbearance. (Maybe. I'm no expert, just wondering if you've explored it at all.)

Thanks for continuing to share with all of us!


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