Through the World Barefooted -- Gerda's LBS Guide

[kml]

Actually, I usually tell people to be cautious about diagnosing their MLCer during MLC if they weren’t like that before, because MLCers can be temporarily so strange. But there are some who clearly had serious issues from the beginning and yours was definitely one.

There’s two kinds of WAS - previously good spouses having a bout of temporary insanity, who may return to their right minds at some time in the future, and those who have a serious character defect or personality disorder that allowed the cheating in the first place but was also evident in their prior behavior. My ex’s narcissism was at the root of his cheating, and is much clearer in the rear view mirror and in his ongoing treatment of our children.

[Gerda]

kml, for some reason I looked up your old posts. I had never read the early story of your sitch, and it was pretty heart breaking to see how it all began and how hopeful you were. And just so I could feel even sadder, I decided to look at my first thread, and I saw the post you had posted to me in the beginning and I just sat here at the table crying my head off because I just wonder if all those years ago, you were right. Thinking of who I was then, of all that I didn't understand about boundaries and about what was happening, all the hope I had...

Thinking of how there was no way for me to move and how in those days we owned two businesses together, etc., I don't know that I could have changed as much as I needed to change. I did ask my H to leave many times and he refused, I wish I had figured out a way to get him out earlier. I am positive God used everything that happened to me for the good and I am even hopeful about my future life, if I could just get this divorce done forever. But just now, thinking of myself back then, I just want to hug that girl with all my might, it just all seems so staggering that I am looking back at my own life and that all that happened to lead to what is happening now, a man who has completely descended into such a terrible destructive madness....

On a positive note -- my son is coming out of all the darkness, he is still troublesome in some ways but slowly getting so much better since my H left.

I think I will back off from this forum again though, because every time I post there are so many replies telling me that I am a doormat or delusional and telling me to get a divorce, etc. I hear plenty of that from the people around me. Often the replies even seem to echo what I hear from my H, that our whole marriage was always bad and I should "face reality."

Gerda- I am NOT telling you to divorce him, but I AM telling you there may be something seriously wrong with him. Why would you not want to help him if the problem is actually drug addiction or bipolar disorder or a brain tumor? Why are you so unwilling to even look at or answer questions about this? And protecting your children from the harmful effects of his abusive behavior does not mean abandoning him or the marriage, but it may mean setting boundaries that might include your H leaving the house for a while if he can't behave. Being faithful to your marriage does NOT mean you have to tolerate abuse; in fact, it may be to your husband's benefit in the long run if you stop allowing him to treat you and your son this way.

Believe it or not, your husband is actually MORE likely to return to the marriage (and return as a better man) if you DON'T put up with his bad behavior. (And I'm not suggesting you do this in a negative way by accusing him of being like his father, you can do this in a firm but loving way, having healthy boundaries, just like you would with your child.)

As for your husband saying the marriage was always bad - that's just normal MLC nonsense, don't pay a moment's attention. You did not imagine your good years. They have to make up something to justify their behavior. Still, the one thing you CAN control at the present is you, and it's a good time to work on any improvements that you know you need to make.

I also recommend a very good Al Anon book called The Courage to Change. A friend gave it to me when I was going through my marital difficulties, and even though neither my husband nor I had any alcohol problems, the book was surprisingly helpful.

God is there to support you, but God also wants you to take care of yourself and your children. He will be there to guide you, but he also wants you to do the necessary work to heal yourself. He's got your h in his hands and he will do what is necessary to heal him, but it's going to be on his time schedule and the seas may become very rough for your h along the way.

Job is so right here.

And please read carefully what people are saying to you, as you seem prone to misinterpret; my comment was that EITHER there is something seriously wrong with your H, OR he always had an abusive streak that you didn't see and that is now worse with MLC. If he truly was a wonderful spouse prior to his MLC, then I stand by my (experienced) medical opinion that there may be something beyond ordinary MLC going on with him. Does he show other signs of mania (staying up all night, impulsivity and rash decisions, grandiose ideas)? Does he have a family history of bipolar disorder, alcoholism, Huntington's disease, or any other neurodegenerative diseases? Does he drink or use drugs? Has he been put on any prescription medications that can cause behavior changes (antidepressants, Parkinson's drugs, etc?). Does he have a history of concussion or brain injury? Autoimmune disorders or hormone imbalances like thyroid disease? Exposure to toxins like heavy metals?

My ex had multiple concussions and probably a very mild lifelong form of bipolar disorder (which I myself did not recognize until it was too late). I did everything possible to save my marriage (and we reconciled for several very good years until his last MLC). He is in denial about his medical conditions and I feel badly that I was unable to help him, as I now see signs of subtle deterioration. (Thankfully he is married now to a nice young woman who I hope will care for him as he ages).

You can be a lighthouse for your husband, a beacon of hope and love and rationality, while still enforcing healthy boundaries and not allowing him to abuse you or the kids. Just as you can be an excellent loving mother while still making your children eat their vegetables and go to school.

[Gerda]

Also -- back in those days, I never answered your question, I disappeared for a while. But here is my answer --

Other signs of mania -- he would pass out early (drunk) but get up at like 3 am, totally impulsive and rash decisions, EXTREMELY grandiose ideas.

Family history -- I think there is mental illness there, both parents but not diagnosed. (And definitely was for my parents and brother. My mom was diagnosed variously with bipolar, my brother with NPD, etc.) H and his father are both alcoholics. He used drugs in his teens and early 20's, in MLC abused sleeping pills and magnesium citrate.

He did have several concussions as a kid/teen.

Not sure about hormone imbalances like thyroid disease. Grew up in a communist country and then in parts of the US where he surely had exposure to toxins like heavy metals. Early in MLC I wondered if he had mercury poisoning. His abuse of magnesium citrate has been since 2013, 5-10 times the recommended dosage, and taken DAILY. Now he also vapes.

My D tells me he cries a lot and told her, "Sometimes you have to cry." I hate to hear that. I don't want to think he even has a heart anymore, it's too painful.

[Gerda]

I posted this in DnJ's thread but was thinking it should maybe go in mine for anyone who has thoughts.

Originally Posted by DnJ
D11 will get there too. Right now she is caught up in her new Disney Dad. Paradise, shinny, fun, ponies and unicorns. She is 11, it’s ok. She is a child, she is supposed to live somewhat in a make-believe world. However, one cannot eat sugar everyday; they will get sick of it. D11 will see through Dad’s hollow and insincere attempts to buy her love, respect, and friendship. She will rebel. Teenage years are coming.



I am not sure about this happening. D11 has a lot of learning disabilities and I am sometimes not sure she can understand what is really happening if H feeds her enough lies and manipulates her as he has done the past few years, once he started taking an interest in her.


Originally Posted by DnJ
I do remember feeling betrayed by D15 after BD. Perhaps it is a lot like your feelings towards D11. D15 and D11 didn’t and aren’t betraying us. It only feels that way.

You know me and my encouragement to rationalize and implement mental assertiveness. Look at D11’s behaviour as a good thing. D11 trusts you enough, loves you enough, has faith in you enough - to take you for granted a bit, ignore you a bit, while she reaches out towards her Dad. You are the strong and stable parent. D11 sees this, it shows in her behaviour.


I do agree with you, and I hope I can see things this way at least most of the time. BUT -- Here is the thing, my friend. I don't know if you see yourself as someone who was abused. But I know can look back at the last seven or more years and see that I was truly abused -- not physically, though that would make things much clearer in a way. Emotionally, verbally, financially and in some intimacy ways -- again, via mind games and withholding, not active physical abuse. I have a sort of PTSD from it now, and it's very real. I can stop and breathe and look at it and see that it is anxiety and that my fears are not real, but there is most definitely a physiological reaction that I have to manage. And yes, it is not just H but some things left over from older wounds, but definitely, seven years of H's spiral -- maybe more like nine years if you count the earlier intimations -- have not been good for Gerda's cortisol supply chain. And what I am trying to say is that I have had H's love, and it is toxic. It is a poison love. I do not want him to love D11 because I do not want her to drink poison. Having time off from her for the weekend is amazing for me on a selfish level. I can finally get some work done, have some head space, go sit outside a cafe (all still closed) by myself reading for work, not hear D and S fighting, etc. But I am terrified the whole time she is gone about what damage that man is inflicting on her deepest soul. The damage that could lead her into relationships like I had before H and with H, continuing the cycle.

And even as I say that and think it,there is still a part of me that is still Gerda making her way north to love the frozen glass shards off of Kay's heart. I still can't believe that H could have always been as evil as he seems to be now. I am not talking about trying to take his half, or more than his half, I am talking about actively doing extremely nefarious things, false documents, etc., to destroy my life. But in some weird way, I still hold out hope that someday he would wake up from this nightmare and be more like what I knew before, I just can't believe that he was carrying this level of darkness that whole time. I am just hoping that he will become a monk if that ever happens so that I never have to consider him being my H again. (I know that sounds rather crazy but that's the truth, just between you and me. : ) )

I know she is not me, she has her own journey, etc. But every mother's instinct I have, to keep her from drinking poison, I have to put aside and surrender because I have no choice. I can't protect her. I know, I can only be there for her when she returns, even though she usually hates me a little bit when she returns, and lately hates me more often, as H is always texting her, calling her, pulling on her.... But still, it is hard, as a mom who is so devoted to that vocation, it is very hard to surrender.


Originally Posted by DnJ
I don’t really know what to say regarding my non-wrestling. I kind of feel bad in not being able to reach you. I do remember my dark struggles. I had some horrible battles with my own thoughts and feelings and fears. I can speak about them, they hold no power over me anymore, they just aren’t current or alive, a memory.


It sounds nice to be detached on one level, but it also seems risky to be too detached lest you implode.... If I felt nothing at all in such a moment (re: DnJ's exW coming to his yard for an event) I would see that as disassociation, which was the tool I used to make it through my teen years during my mother's MLC and the total breakdown of my family that included violence, drugs, alcohol, etc., while brave Gerda disassociated, got straight A's and woke up ten years later.

Anyway, I would like to hear more about your dark days sometimes as a way of normalizing all of our dark days. But at minimum I do want to know, and I have asked you this before -- looking back now, from this point of your journey, can you still say that W turned into someone else, and not that you can now see that this was there all along? I have been looking back and seeing things more clearly about H. I think he was winning a battle over this part of him, and that is a good thing, but I no longer think this wasn't in him before. I think MLC ended his ability to battle it. So I do wonder about this for you, if you do not mind looking at the memory more directly.

[Gerda]

P.S. I don't know if I ever wrote about this but I remember one time before BD, before I had faith, when I was asking H about his faith and what it meant for him and how he came by it. And I remember that he said, "You have no idea how badly I need it, how bad I am," or something like that. And I was like,"What? What do you mean? What did you do that was so bad?" I remember at the time thinking that he was suffering from some kind of misplaced Catholic guilt or from the wounds of his father making him feel like he was such a failure. Now I think that maybe he was in battle with this mental illness or this dark dark side of himself, and he knew it all along, but MLC was too great a pressure and he gave up.

He was also a man that I KNEW would never cheat, even after BD I remember thinking with relief that I wouldn't have to face that, whatever other flaws he had before and during MLC, but of course now I wonder if he was cheating before BD or even further back in the days of our marriage that seemed happy. We were literally always together so I don't think he could have. There was a time when S14 was a baby when we weren't getting along and H came to me all sad and asked if I had cheated on him and I was like...WHAAAA? How would I even have time?! I remember having this almost nice feeling of happiness that H cared if I would cheat on him!!! A sign of how low my self worth was already. Now I wonder if he thought of that, something I am incapable of and which I certainly never had time to do, because he was contemplating it even then, or had done it already. When he went crazy, he continued to accuse me of adultery or other lack of faithfulness just because of what a bad wife I was, without meaning I had actually been with another man.

I've been reflecting on the past to try to make meaning for my present and my future. I know that in some ways none of this matters but I am trying to figure out things about myself, what I did and didn't see, what I allowed, because of my own wounds and feelings of being unworthy of true love from a husband.

[HaWho]

Gerda - some amount of rumination is normal. But, it’s important we set a hard stop timer on our visit to Rumination-ville so as not to get lost in the past.

Personally, I think anyone who dynamites his/her life in this fashion was always fighting some battle that would require him/her to find an affair partner to use to grow up in a proper fashion. Healthy people with strong coping skills don’t emotionally self detonate in this fashion. They bob and weave and cross those choppy waters. Look around you at all the people who are 55+ without this self induced chaos.

Let’s say all the markers were there for both of us and we missed every single one. Let’s work on forgiving ourselves; healing and ensuring our kids do have strong coping skills.

As we increase out time on the things we can impact we will grow stronger and we won’t repeat these mistakes.

You are strong.❤️

[DnJ]

Good Morning Gerda

I do hope this first morning of the weekend is smiling upon you. And you smile back.

I've been reflecting on the past to try to make meaning for my present and my future. I know that in some ways none of this matters but I am trying to figure out things about myself, what I did and didn't see, what I allowed, because of my own wounds and feelings of being unworthy of true love from a husband.

It is ok to wonder and reflect upon the past. As HaWho cautioned, do put a hard limit on walking down memory lane, lest you get lost.

It is good to find understanding of our past. To see the lessons, learnings, and discoveries; those are the wisdom that can provide direction and headings for us and our lives. However, it does not bring meaning to our present or future. Our actions do that. Our behaviours. We make our life, present and future, meaningful by walking the path.

“I've been reflecting on the past to try to make meaning for my present and my future.” Do it, don’t try it.

The past is the past. Immutable. Learn from it. Accept it. Forgive it. Do not dwell upon it. And forgive yourself. (((Gerda)))

Your past made you who you are - and I like you! Ok, it’s a bit more than like. Let’s say, I really like you.

Please do work upon your wounds. For you are worthy of love from a husband or man. This, I am very sure of! So, if you feel different, listen to DnJ. Your thoughts will influence your feelings and beliefs. I do hope you heal and get to see yourself like I see you.

I would like to hear more about your dark days sometimes as a way of normalizing all of our dark days.

Dark days are perfectly normal. We are on a path that is incredibly painful. Part of that path is grief and depression. Oh, that can be so very dark.

I was so lost in my darkness. I felt so alone, so unwanted, so unheard, so non-understood. Everything seems to focus inward into yourself. The blackness crushing and pushing, relentlessly, and without mercy.

I, for a time, even worried I was in a midlife crisis. I was in an emotional crisis, betrayed, discarded, and left for dead. But not a MLC. Just PTSD.

I’m not downplaying PTSD, that is a anxiety feedback loop that is just wild. But, MLC is worse. That is something I’ve held on to and considered with my XW. I’ve had a pretty big taste of what I suspect is like her torment; and I could see it and heal from it. One gets a lot of compassion walking in someone’s shoes.

Back to my shoes, and my path. My PTSD had some weird side affects and triggers. I could not stand to wear long sleeves. I just couldn’t. Within minutes I would be breathing hard, heart would be racing, I’d sweat. Man, that was strange.

I also needed silence. I couldn’t stand the TV, or music. For many months I didn’t watch any movies - and I love movies.

For many months I existed within my fight / flight / freeze response. Oh God that was horrible. Such an adrenaline overload. I was sleep deprived and on edge. My body and emotions were still under attack, yet the tiger had left literally month ago. Fight / flight / freeze is for short term survival not for long term. I was three months in full on zombie / survival mode.

I very literally collapsed into bed. I did not go to bed and find peaceful sleep. I found my bed and only escaped due to exhaustion. That would last for 90 minutes. Then the only routine that allowed me to get “back to sleep” - I’d get up, go the bathroom, get a drink, and return to my fitful slumber. Only to repeat this every 90 minutes - the half of the REM cycle. Months and months of not deep healing sleep. Oh, and the nightmares!

I’ve mentioned this before. Three months in, I found forgiveness for XW. A terrible nightmare. XW in h3ll. Suffering for her sins. I bolted awake and right there in the darkness of my bedroom, got out of bed, knelt on the floor and prayed for God to please forgive her. I begged Him to forgive her, for I realized I had. She doesn’t deserve to burn. Ha, such hubris-like feelings - me attempting to sway God. Lol.

I returned to bed and have sleep soundly, and fully, every night since. Every single night! Such is the power of light and forgiveness. Almost divine. I don’t bring that up much; it sounds too arrogant to me. However, I do believe and have been touched by something much greater than I. You once ask me what I meant about humbling myself. This is it. I’ve been blessed, heard the call, and seen the light. And who am I to be worthy of such bounty.

My darkest time was the month before this forgiving moment. Christmas Day. Again, I don’t speak of this very often. I do not glorify it, nor am I ashamed of it. That morning with all my kids and my parents, and all of us opening presents, I paused, went to the kitchen and considered ending things with a knife. The only thing that stop me was fear. That’s it. Fear. Seems funny, me such a proponent of letting go of fear and yet my very existence it owed to it.

I feared missing something vital and then suffering on the floor. I was far too deep in ceaseless pain. I hadn’t joined here, or found anyone who understood or had gone through such an event as what happened during Thanksgiving. It was dark times indeed. I felt alone. Even with everyone around opening presents - alone and non-understood. Depression is horrible.

I write, encourage, post, hopefully inspire, and provide some useful guidance and a beacon to others. I am just one voice among a chorus of survivors and their hard earned wisdom. I describe the path, as best I can, and to the best of my abilities. I found my way out of the darkness and I share it. I am following a light and a voice. I have much peace and serenity in my life.

DnJ

[Grace21]

Gerda -

My dear friend, just stopping by to let you know I'm thinking of you. Thinking about the past is o.k. so we can learn and understand, but fight hard to ensure it doesn't keep you there.

(((Gerda)))


You are strong, you are loved.

Grace

[Gerda]

DnJ, just found this post you wrote on Jun 13. I don't know how I missed it. It's a good one. I feel terrible that I didn't see it before when you took all that time to lay out your suffering in response to my request. And then you got nothing in reply!

I need to read it a few times before I write back.

But I already know from one read that it's just what I asked for. You gave me the very gift that was on my LBS registry! I know it was a lot for you to peer into your darkest moment past. I will swim around in the blackness with previous DnJ and write again soon. Sorry I missed it before!

I am at my cabin with my kids -- the one I fought for and now it's MINE. Have been renting it out monthly during Covid and so it's paying double its own mortgage every month! Tonight S15 and I (his bday just passed) took a walk pass the mountain views with rain clouds drifting low (he kept saying, "It looks like Lord of the Rings!") to a nearby pond and it was so magical in the dusk -- a million birds and frogs and bats and everyone singing and bellowing,louder than a city street. Seeing my boy transfixed by nature -- PRICELESS.

[Gerda]

Gracie, thank you. I owe you a call but no phones up here, plus no privacy! XO XO and reading your latest with bated breath! Will try you soon.