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A Message from Michele
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Recap: 6-7 years ago my M was suffering and I couldn't put my finger on it. Around 6 years ago he got caught hanging out with OW, a (close) mutual friend of ours. It had been an 8 month long EA. I felt crazy and volatile. Things became emotionally explosive for weeks and one day I told him if he is not 100% committed to our M then to get out. To my surprise he did. For 10 months he was off in lala land having full blown A with OW. Our circle of friends blew up and I was humiliated. During this time I hit rock bottom. My father had died shortly before BD, my eldest D was a troubled teen (Bipolar) and we had to send her to wilderness & therapeutic boarding school out of state, and the double betrayal was too much. I lost 35 lbs, couldn't eat, sleep, think or function well. What got me through was a deep seeded belief that humans are resilient and that time is only moving forward. I knew that eventually things would recover and that I would be okay. I also had some wonderful and supportive people in my life.

I found this site and read often but didn't post. I developed a deeper and supportive friendship with OW's LBH, who was dealing with the same betrayal. I still didn't handle myself well and wasn't able to follow DB rules. Over time I did get better at GAL,180s and started to detach. Most days I felt like I was faking it. I did eventually stop contact and pursuit and would only email him about kids/finances. I think we were both able to protect our younger kids as well as could be expected. I wasn't able to shake my rage and devastation tho, which I am sure he knew. He often acted like a wounded, guilty puppy. He was less arrogant and cruel than what I have read here about WHs. I started to drop the rope and imagine a life without him and our family home. I started to get better at hiding my emotions from him. Turns out his A was all drama and not the kind of R he had wanted initially. After around 10 months he did a very fast turnaround. ... Now, I firmly believe you have to let them go before they come back.

I had conditions, but I accepted him back. He had to end things with OW and go 100% no contact. I needed proof and 100% transparency for all devices. Weekly MC. He would not move home until we were both ready. He also needed to continue to work on himself and accept responsibility for the damage he caused. He read the No More Mr Nice Guy book which fit him to a T! Even tho I was the person that wanted the M back more during the separation, I definitely have struggled more with understanding it and more so forgiveness. He has been consistent and patient in his commitment to our M and family in the last 5 years.

He has now been back in the M for over 5 years. It has been bumpy and messy. There have been times that I have seriously doubted if it could ever work in the long term and if I made the right choice. We did MC, we did our own IC, we attended Retrouvaille, we had the same conversations and tears. He has genuinely apologized and felt remorse a million times. I would say that my biggest obstacle has been myself and my feelings around his betrayal. It is not something I ever had thought I could understand and I don't know that I ever will. I do believe the man in front of me now is a good man, H and father. I think that is more important than our mistakes in the past. I have made mistakes too, I just haven't shared the details here. .... After BD, we often hang on to them so tight, but really, we are hanging on to the idea of them and what we had. When they return, the initial relief wears off quickly and the real person in front of us is tarnished.

Update next ...


Thread 1

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2670289#Post2670289

Thread 2:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2677578&page=1

Thread 3:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2688297#Post2688297

Thread 4:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2712057&page=1

Thread 5:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2745868&page=1

Thread 6:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2745874&page=1

Thread 7:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2766229&page=1

Thread 8:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2788068&page=1

Thread 9:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2843090&page=1


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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Thread 10. Update:

The last couple months have been different. I am an ICU nurse and charge nurse. The stress and anxiety as our unit began to prepare a COVID ICU, while anticipating a surge, has been surreal. We watched what happened in Italy and then NY and scrambled to think of ways to accommodate a surge. This happened while several of my coworkers (also mostly charge nurses on my shift) were on a 3 week vacation. I didn't know when they would return or if they would be stuck out of the country. Our hospital org told us we would be creating a COVID ICU and taking them from other sister facilities in our greater area. Simultaneously they started rationing PPE and telling us to reuse items meant for one time use. Our area had some of the first documented cases and also implemented the first shelter in place (SIP) orders. My kids were home and I was working mostly every day, sometimes 16 hours days. I wasn't sleeping well and felt on high alert and a steady stream of anxiety -- fight or flight -- but my instinct has always been to fight. Not that different from my post BD days really!

At home, things have been different, however in a good way. H stepped up and handled it. He changed his work schedule so the kids were not home alone as long. He started doing more of everything -- shopping (minimally), cleaning, and just being supportive and loving, to me and the kids. My kids have been able to manage school from home and even continued their sports on zoom (mostly conditioning). And then something nice and unexpected transpired. We stopped running in circles, managing crazy driving schedules of practices, games, and hitting lessons, and started simply being home together. We started cooking together, having dinner as a family daily, and enjoyed happy hours in the sunshine. We watch silly tv together or just sit outside. We started just being together more. We had never made much time for that before this. So, despite the stress, changes, and unknowns, we learned to be more present as a family and as a couple.

The surge hasn't come. Yet. We know that it will -- next fall or winter -- but for now we are managing okay. These poor patients that end up on life support are mostly dying or not recovering. Fortunately we have not been so overwhelmed that we cannot care for them all. I don't know what will happen if we ever get to that point and I hope that we do not. I feel very grateful that I live in an area that has lawmakers that are taking all precautions. I mostly feel grateful that I still have my health, my job, my family and that we are moving forward. I have a wonderful H and I cannot deny that.

I hope that all of you are hanging in there. I will try and get caught up on your sitches. My summer seems to be cancelled. I still check up on some of you here and there and I think about you guys.

Take care. And please, please stay the F home.

Blu

Last edited by BluWave; 05/01/20 05:28 PM.

ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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Hi Blu,

Thanks for your service. You're amazing.

Originally Posted by Blu
After BD, we often hang on to them so tight, but really, we are hanging on to the idea of them and what we had. When they return, the initial relief wears off quickly and the real person in front of us is tarnished.

So true. We can never go home again. Glad things are going well for you two on the whole.



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Thanks for the update Blu.

You know, I read your posts and I see my W. I see your H and I see myself. Everytime I read your posts I end with teary eyes.

Iīll remain eternally grateful to my W. She guided me home. She is what you are: the lighthouse.

Thank you Blu.


WW H(me): 51
W: 47
T: 26 M: 21
S: 16
Piecing since 03/2016
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Thank you for what you're doing and for sharing it with us-- good to hear how things are going from the front lines. And really glad to know that things are going well. It feels like these COVID times are kind of like a pressure cooker-- compressing so much into every day, when we might normally get a few quick minutes of connecting as a family now we get 24/7. It is like each day is almost a normal month in terms of the time we all get together. And while of course this situation is borne of tragedy, I can't also help but be grateful for the family time and connection. I wonder how our kids will remember this!


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
9/20-present R attempt #2
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Whenever I read your updates Blu I am glad of your honesty but also aware of a deep...disappointment? With your H? With life not turning out as expected? I don't know, that might be my interpretation. You certainly show that R is not the easy route, and I'm grateful for your honesty. Please stay well, enjoy your family as they grow up so quick xxx

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CW, thank you, that is kind of you to say. I have never felt pride in my work the way I do now. Being a nurse has felt more like a job and when I leave work most days, I clock out and put it behind me. Even tho our ICU pts are still critical in the same way, there is a greater sense of purpose because we are supporting the community at large.

neffer, how sweet, thank you. You know, I can see the similarities in your writings. You strike me as a very warm and open-minded person. That is what attracted me to my H initially. I am the more fiery and strong-willed one. So we either complement each other greatly or it (was) a complete disaster :-)

May, I am trying to still follow your thread and am rooting for your M! I feel like there is a lot I can learn from you and your sitch. You have some qualities that I lack but can appreciate and work towards myself. You seem to have more sympathy, patience and understanding for your H. I hope that the shelter in place can bring you guys closer together as well.

Hi dilly. You are correct and I have been quite candid about my disappointments in my H and my M. I think we all have these bottom lines and unwritten rules in our mind about what we could and couldn't accept in our relationships. For so many years of my life, my M was my primary R and I believed that any type of infidelity was a deal breaker for me. I honestly thought that even a brief EA, or lies about his feelings towards any other woman, would be the death of our M. I thought I could see past other betrayals -- around dishonesty, family, work, or money -- but certainly not romantic feelings.

Not only did my H have a full blown A, and for an extended time, but it was with someone I considered a close friend. It was also at a vulnerable time in my life -- my fathers last years of his life were traumatic and too much to get into here. He had a severe neurological disorder and deteriorated in a nursing home. We also had the additional trauma of my (then teen) daughter being diagnosed bipolar and not being able to manage it or even keep her safe. She would jump out of the window in the middle of the night and run away. Also, too much to get into here. And this was the time he had an affair? When I was vulnerable and needed him the most? I should also add that my eldest D (now 21 yo) is not his bio child. I was a single mom and we met when she almost 3. I say this because while our hardships and M problems certainly had a huge impact on him, it was my own D and my father that I was losing. Our younger 2 Ds were healthy and did not have struggles.

I say all of this because I am trying to emphasize the gravity of it all and his betrayal. We get married and vow "in sickness and in health" because we are choosing a partner in life to see us through it all. The honeymoon is short lived and life evolves in ways we could never anticipate, especially when there are children, job changes, financial hardships, ailing parents or when life just svcks sometimes. We need our spouse the most when we actually NEED them. So when I needed him, is when he stabbed me in the back the abandoned me. I don't think most women would have taken him back TBH.

So dilly, no, life did not turn out the way I expected. I never expected I would have a bipolar child, lose my dad at 71 and that my H would have an A with a "good friend" and break apart my family at my lowest point. I could have never, ever have even imagined this craziness or that it would be my life story. ... but he came back .... and he said he was sorry ... and he meant it .... and I do believe he has changed ... I do also believe he is a really good person, who made a terrible mistake .... and maybe he made the mistake because life got so hard and he didn't know how to support me, and he lacked his own coping mechs, and OW was on the side giving him that support ... maybe that is why he had the A -- because life was hard -- and he didn't know how to take care of our family so he ran .... I could speculate forever, but I have already done that, and there is no reason to do that again now.

Understanding and forgiving my H for his betrayal has been a herculean effort. It is by far the hardest thing I have ever done. Harder than my father's death and harder than raising a bipolar kid. I don't taking him back makes me a better person. I don't even advise that most people here should do the same if given the opportunity. If a spouse can ditch you when life gets rough then why sign up for that again? ... I see that I was given a choice and that I made a difficult one to take him back. My own personal happiness and life satisfactions reflect so much more than just that tho. That is just one part of my history, but will never be the focal point. It may be hard to tell from my writings, but I am not bitter nor am I defensive. That doesn't serve me. I actually appreciate your comment/questions because it challenges me to think and I like that. If there is anything I want people to take away from my story it is simply to let go. There is no reason to hang on to a person that doesn't want you. Be your best without them. If they come around and show you someone that loves you, values you and wants you, then you can decide if you want to let them back in. I am fortunate that my H was able to really look at his mistakes, be willing to change and make amends. Not everyone has the opportunity to save their M. I also think that if I had moved on a created a new life without him, that that decision would be just as honorable.

Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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Hi,

It has been a couple months so time for an update. It feels strange to talk about my M when there are so many more pressing issues in the world. So I will just put that here first. Work has been rough. We are seeing a surge that we worked so hard in our area to flatten (the curve) initially. We lost 2 coworkers in the last week. One was an incredible nurse and I adored her. My heart is aching. More coworkers are calling off out of fear of being at work or feeling ill themselves. So more patients and less staff means more work/stress for the rest of us. I just worked 80 hours in the last week. I feel tired and frustrated. My biggest frustration comes from the way our country's leadership is handling this pandemic, that responses are more political than based on science, and on people's refusal to wear masks and practice physical distancing. Our family has been mostly home, we have cancelled our vacation, and we are very mindful of protecting our community and ourselves. I am just dumbfounded how many people refuse to acknowledge what is happening because they themselves are not sick or don't know someone that is. If anyone spent a day with me at work I am sure they would change their tune real fast. I find myself fantasizing about moving ... I am also troubled by how we are handling current racial/social injustices in and out of our healthcare & prison systems. All of this is weighing heavy on me. .... now I will step off my soapbox and carry on ....

My M is okay. I have started to lose track of the timeline and I find that to be a relief. I also do not get emotional triggers like I did for the first several years of piecing. I can drive by places that used to hold significant memories and not notice or think much of it now. On a daily basis things seem fine. Mostly we are balancing work and our kids. This quarantine has had significant impacts on all of the children (one adult) for different reasons that I won't get into here. That has been a bigger focus than working on our M of course. We have also done some nice projects or started planning them. We took a camping trip where we were able to keep physical distance and it was beautiful and fun. I would like to plan another one next month. I see my H trying. He has been better at upholding his own boundaries and letting go of his MNG traits in a way that he did not before. Sometimes I think he is better at processing things and talking about feelings, whereas I would rather sleep on it and avoid issues. I feel emotionally tired. It is hard for me to be optimistic when I cannot create things to look forward to in the future. Right now I do not see an end in sight and continue to be at greater risk with my job description and the nature of this. I have to swallow my own bitterness at watching others carry on as usual.

Conversely, being forced to live more in the moment has been good for me as well. It has forced me to see what is in front of me and to be more present, with my H and with my kids. I am trying to be more patient with everyone. I am trying to practice gratitude that I have my health and my family.

Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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So sorry to hear about your co-workers Blu. Thank you for taking the time to update us. You have been, and continue to be, such a gift to this community. I know you definitely helped me when I was at my lowest. Big (((HUGS))) to you from across the miles. DV xo


Me 53
H 48
B/G Twins 13
SD 21
Legal SA - January 2019
Divorce filed - June 2019
Divorce final - November 2019

Together 14 years
Married 12 years
BD1 - May 2014
BD2 - September 14, 2018

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Thank you so much for posting your updates Blu. I'm divorced but not done. I've lurked on this site ever since my BD back in 2017. You are one of the piecing veterans I'd found and tracked, before you returned for your latest updates. Your inspiration is with me. You and many others have helped me to save myself and my child. She was threatening self-harm. Doing much better now.

My xH and I had an amicable divorce. He has someone else now, even though not the original alienator. I know I'll be fine no matter what. Again, thanks to the generosity of people like you who, despite how hard it is, continue to share your trajectory of travail and grace, I too am healing and becoming stronger than I ever imagined was possible.

Hats off to the bravery and kindness of healthcare workers like yourselves. I hope you are doing a lot of self-care, and enjoy every bliss with your intact family. You are what makes the world a bright place.

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BluWave,

Thanks for sharing your story! There are a lot of threads on here which don't end up well, or at least not leading to reconciliation. I think reading sitches such as yours is helpful to folks who are reaching out for hope.

I know what you mean about the silver lining of COVID being families having more time together at home without the countless activities and running around. I thought about that often in my sitch as I saw families taking walks in the neighborhood and playing in the yard. Unfortunately due to my sitch whereas it could've been time for me and my W and family, but W wasn't interested - at least I've been able to use it with the kids.

Good luck with your work in the hospital, and your marriage going forward!


Me:39 Ex-W:36
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:2
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
OM2 confirmed: 9/2020
Divorced: May '21
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Hello friends, old and new.

Thank you for reading and for replying. Iím glad people have gotten something useful from my story. I appreciate the kind words. I got so much out of reading here 6 plus years ago after H left. I was in a dark place and felt so hopeless. The stories and advice here kept my head above water. It also helped me to not feel alone in the madness.

Things are going well for us. H has been back 5.5 years. I couldnít have seen back then where we could be today. I held onto the belief that things would heal in time and they have. Triggers and painful memories do fade. We donít have rose tinted glasses on and I donít hold him on a pedestal anymore. I think the relationship is fairly steady and he is more free to be himself. I have learned the art of compromise and letting go of the small things. He never told me that I pushed him away and was critical and controlling, but Iíve come to understand how I was. I donít want to be that kind of person. I like who I am more now. I like who he is more now too. Heís stronger in his views, stands up to others and is able to find time for himself now.

We are landscaping our yard and remodeling a detached garage in the yard. We have owned this home for 10 years and the back has been mostly dirt and a big cr0p hole for the dogs. Now itís evolving into this beautiful oasis. Itís been amazing to work on this together and look forward to the space. We have hired people for the larger projects, but H has done some of it himself. Itís impressive how much he can do ó gardening, heavy lifting, electrical, building structures, you name it! ... itís also nice that we are creating something new and awesome together. I keep reading about marriage 2.0 but Iím not sure what that means. Some things in the M are the same, some different, and we continue forward, together.

H had Covid last month. It was very mild and we were fortunate for that and that they rest of us didnít get it. The kids and I all quarantined for 2 weeks and then tested negative. Then I go back to work and see people dying from it. Itís all very strange and uncertain indeed. I hope we can find some answers to this virus and heal as a nation. This has been such a messy year and there has been so much loss, suffering and divisiveness. Iím trying more and more to think for myself and not let politics corrupt me.

I do have a good suggestion for anyone that likes podcasts on relationships. Esther Perel (my other fav psychologist on Ms) has a podcast called Where Should We Begin. It really helps to listen to these couples and her advice to them. She has helped me think about M issues and how they relate to our childhood and upbringing and not only the present day problems. Iím trying to better accept and appreciate why we are the way we are and that our greatest strengths are often our same weaknesses. Over 6.5 years later and Iíve come to fully believe that my own Hs A (OW) has nothing to do with who she was or his feelings about her and that she herself was irrelevant.

Stay healthy all!

Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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Blu - thanks for continuing to post. It is really helpful to hear that triggers/painful memories fade and that growth and change has stayed in a positive way. That sounds amazing with your yard, and glad to hear your H is back well again.

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Thank you.

Just journaling a bit. We lost our senior dog last week. He was 14.5 yo, had several health problems and was a big dog, so we knew we had to let him go. I havenít cried this much in years. Maybe since my sitch 6 years ago. I didnít know it would be so hard. He was such a calm, present and loyal guy. My emotions are not just about the loss of him, but the reminder that he was there for all of it. The only stable one. He was there through it all ó before things fell apart, birth of the third child, watched them grow up, bought our first home, my oldest D was diagnosed BPD, my father died, my M fell apart, H left me for OW, I sent my D out of state, H came back, D came back, H lost his mother, and on and on. He was right there. I feel so much gratitude for him. And also for the way we came together as a family. We have cried together, held one another, talked about how he is part of our family, and H and I have reminisced about the good times and bad. In our own grief, it somehow feels cathartic and right. Iím glad H and I are still together. I value him in so many ways. I stopped trying so hard to push my feelings around and work on the M, and then somehow it got easier. He is a good man. I can see that more clearly now.

Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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Oh Blu,

I'm so sorry for your loss. Thinking so much of you and your family. I'm glad you were able to grieve together.

xx M


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
9/20-present R attempt #2
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Blu,

My condolences. Sorry to hear about your big puppy/family member. I hope you and your family gets the proper time to grieve. Glad to hear from you. Glad to see you getting closer to hubby again.

Joejoe01


M:37 W:37
T:11 M:10
S17, S13, S10, S4
BD:06/28/17
OM confirmed 07/20/17
Recon the M 10/29/17
Working hard:2gether

Onward and forward

This process is not a sprint it's a marathon! Patience, Patience, Patience.
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Hello friends,

I still follow several of you. I donít post as much, but I am here. Iíll post an update, however I dont have much news to share. I also canít get my hands on a keyboard because the kids are still distant learning, so Iím trying to type from this little iPhone.

One of my fav coworkers has become a good friend over the years and was very supportive during my BD/separation/initial recon times. For the last couple years she has been going through something similar and the table has turned. Her sitch reminds me of Mays a bit. So now he has been back this time since spring, waivered with OW again, and then recommitted again in summer. Seems like they are able to function and coparent on a day to day basis. They have been in weekly counseling but they donít seem to do any real work, or have an intimate connection or trust.

Itís all very sad to me. Yesterday she pulled me aside and asked me, ďwhen will I stop thinking about OW when we are together (ML)?Ē I donít think they have much of a physical relationship but at times try to reconnect or have date nights, etc. I tried to answer her as best I could, but our sitches are different. One, I really convinced myself that H and X-OW didnít have a good physical connection (long story but he also reinforced my belief). Am I fooling myself? Maybe. But what difference does it make now?

Two, I didnít let H back into my life, home or bed until I trusted him. Not forgiven ó thatís a looonnngggg process ó but trust. I needed to see that he was completely done with his A and feelings for her, I needed to know that he was remorseful, and I needed to believe that he was committed to doing the hard and uncomfortable work with me. I just couldnít open up to him in any way until those were in place. And then, I allowed him to come home and start the process of piecing. So now when I speak with her, or read sitches here, I have trouble understanding how it can work when we allow them back before that. I donít know honestly.

Things lately have been pretty good. We have our health, our family and our community. I feel grateful. Iím trying to remain optimistic that with a vaccine and new administration we can depoliticize this virus and treat it as the public health crisis (global pandemic) that it IS. Itís not easy to watch people die. Itís even harder to see people dying alone.

(Jumps off soap box) I will say that things are not rainbows and unicorns in my M. Iíve realized lately that we both absolutely svck at arguing and civil discourse. Iím so acutely aware of it yet so clueless on how to fix it. We both seem to have the same two dysfunctional responses to disagreements ó fight or flight (ignoring until it passes). I find myself having anxiety about even bringing things up. I know it will lead to a frustrating and tearful, voices raised and interrupting, debate and it does. It saddens me that after all these years, and after so many ups/ downs, we can still have such bad habits and not have learned these tools. Ugh.

So Iím trying to step out of my comfort zone and reflect on what I do wrong and where I can do better. Definitely a silver lining for all of us here that has tried follow the rules. I can only control myself and be responsible for what I say and do. What Iíve learned about myself is that my automatic response is to retreat into victim more. My parents had a nasty D when I was 5, and I recall crying every day and feeling completely ignored. Then in adulthood I had this H do the unthinkable, which only reinforced that I was abandoned and left vulnerable and alone. Because now, today, when we argue, I feel those same feelings ó no one listens or cares about me ó and it hits me like a tsunami. I need to learn how to identify that before the emotions take over and challenge that thinking. It really doesnít serve me. I am not a victim anymore. This is so hard stuff tho!!!

Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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So I am left with a few questions to ponder if anyone would like to weigh in:

1. What are the tools to challenging our own limiting reactions/emotions that have become so habitual and engrained in us, including from childhood? (ie I retreat into feeling as if Iím a victim and feel hurt, unheard and defensive)

2. At what point does our own belief system, including the lies we tell ourself, become harmful and when does it no longer matter? (ie I have believed that my Hs A with X-OW was not as meaningful as it may have been in order to accept it happened)

3. Do we need to see remorse and begin to trust our S before accepting them back into the M and build a connection? (I believe that we do, but I fully acknowledge my limited understanding because my H did show me that person, while others here have not had that experience)

Would love to read peopleís reactions, thoughts and opinions.

Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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Hi Blu!! So good to hear from you, as always. I'm very glad to hear you are staying safe and healthy, and things are going as well as can be expected with your H. Truly, with COVID and so many other things going in the world, I think even the healthiest couples are having difficulties. I have some thoughts I'll share later on your questions but I wanted to address your friend's situation.

Originally Posted by BluWave
One of my fav coworkers has become a good friend over the years and was very supportive during my BD/separation/initial recon times. For the last couple years she has been going through something similar and the table has turned. Her sitch reminds me of Mays a bit. So now he has been back this time since spring, waivered with OW again, and then recommitted again in summer. Seems like they are able to function and coparent on a day to day basis. They have been in weekly counseling but they donít seem to do any real work, or have an intimate connection or trust.

Itís all very sad to me. Yesterday she pulled me aside and asked me, ďwhen will I stop thinking about OW when we are together (ML)?Ē I donít think they have much of a physical relationship but at times try to reconnect or have date nights, etc. I tried to answer her as best I could, but our sitches are different. One, I really convinced myself that H and X-OW didnít have a good physical connection (long story but he also reinforced my belief). Am I fooling myself? Maybe. But what difference does it make now?

Two, I didnít let H back into my life, home or bed until I trusted him. Not forgiven ó thatís a looonnngggg process ó but trust. I needed to see that he was completely done with his A and feelings for her, I needed to know that he was remorseful, and I needed to believe that he was committed to doing the hard and uncomfortable work with me. I just couldnít open up to him in any way until those were in place. And then, I allowed him to come home and start the process of piecing. So now when I speak with her, or read sitches here, I have trouble understanding how it can work when we allow them back before that. I donít know honestly.

Throughout all of this, particularly since the summer when we were so close to splitting up physically, I've been pondering the question of whether or not it is possible to reconcile and piece in the same house, without the physical separation. In so many ways, it seems both more traumatic but also cleaner to have him MO and have the break, be able to have your own separate life to live-- and then, should he come back around and want to R, to be able to wait until you're totally sure you're both ready to piece before moving back in together.

When you never have that separation, it is all so messy. Things bleed over. It is hard to get the privacy you need to grieve, to rage, to fully acknowledge and accept just how $hitty your H's behavior has been when he's right there in front of you and generally acting like a decent human being instead of a lying cheater. You basically need to do the work you would have done on your own while living with your H, while still keeping up some level of harmony in the household. It seems really really easy to slide into pretending everything is okay, until something hits you and you realize it isn't. Or-- like it was for me in the spring-- having these questions gnawing away at me and being terrified everything was going to be swept under the rug, which was really uncomfortable in a different way. (And I might posit that not having everything out in the open and total transparency is a recipe for disaster. To me, at this point, I'd consider full transparency a must for even the reconciliation stage.)

I guess what is working for me right now, and what you might communicate to your friend-- is fully accepting that we aren't in piecing yet. I won't be ready to consider it piecing until the same criteria you listed for yourself to need for your H to move back in-- I will need to trust that it's over, in his heart as well as in his head, he's fully remorseful and takes full responsibility for his own behavior, and that he's wholeheartedly committed to a renewed MR with me before we piece.

Until then, I'm working on following the same DB rules you would if you were separated-- dropping all expectations, sending as little energy as possible towards him and focusing it wholly on me and the kids. I think it is possible-- MWR talks about it in her books, and Wayfarer and Steve85 did it-- to R and piece in the same house, but it definitely feels (at least in comparison to what I read on these threads) much more difficult to hold your boundaries strong when your H is physically present but not really ready to piece, yet (even if he says he is).

I totally know what she means about ML and I decided to stop, for now. I felt that the reasons I had had for having sex with him, related to the SSM and proving to myself I was capable of wanting and enjoying sex from a physical standpoint had been met. Also, I had a couple of experiences where I realized I was missing the ML part of it and AP was invading at least my mind (he *said* not in his, but I am not in a place to trust that). I didn't like it and decided I didn't want to do it anymore, and communicated that to him. He's been respectful of it so far. He has initiated a couple of times (nonverbally) and I've taken his hands and put them off of me and that has worked out just fine.

I haven't been opening up to him or expecting him to open up to me, as you would if you were in piecing. We're just coparenting and getting along, much like your friend and her H, but I see it as an extended reconciliation process rather than piecing.

I guess if I was to talk with her and give her advice, what I'd try to find out is, best I could, where in the process she and her H are. Are they in piecing, or are they in a situation like mine, which might look like piecing from the outside but really isn't? Your requirements for letting him move back in, BTW, are the same that my IC told me are required for healing an MR after an affair-- he takes responsibility and is remorseful, and I need to be able to see my way towards forgiveness-- but instead of needing them to be demonstrated before he moves back in, I need them demonstrated before I move into piecing with him.

Until then, I'm working on myself and holding my boundaries. And there very well may be a day when I decide I've had enough and piecing isn't ever going to happen. But not today.

So back to your friend-- if she is in fact in piecing, you will have great advice for her. If she isn't, I'd say she needs to accept that and realize his head isn't in the game, yet, and it may never be, and she needs to decide what it is she wants to do in the meantime (and I'd vote for the DB basics of GAL, dropping expectations, etc.). The added difference that I see from where I sit right now as compared to not living together-- besides it just being difficult to go through these parallel processes under the same roof without expecting any support from your H-- would be really thinking through your boundaries and holding to them. I think that has made a big difference for me, too, along with letting go of any pretense of control I have or expectations for what might be in the future. It isn't fun. But it's the choice I've made, for now, and I'm living with it.

Hugs to your friend. (And you!!) xx M


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
9/20-present R attempt #2
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Hey Blu thanks for stopping over on my thread I really appreciate it. As far as the civil discourse goes I would strongly suggest picking up a copy of Difficult Conversations by Stone, Patton and Heen. I picked it up for business related training but I discovered the techniques have been helpful with communicating with my H and the teens in my house. It's geared for both personal and professional communication. It lays out how to handle these conversations in a step by step manner which the way I'm wired I appreciate. It also accounts for variables. Some of the case studies are a little dated but the techniques are worthwhile.

FWIW I don't think choosing to spend the rest of your life with any human is ever going to be rainbows and sunshine. Humans are complex, flawed, creatures of habit, that also love to try to predict the future. Any one who says their long time R is rainbows and sunshine at all times is full of it.

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May, thank you. Appreciate your wisdom and your thoughtful and detailed posts. I think reading your posts, and speaking with my friend, are really good for me. It helps me to see my sitch from a different lens and challenges me to be more openminded. Have you read Ovrnbows threads? I think their process has been quite different as well ó I donít think his W started recon by being remorseful and owning her mistakes, rather they have slowly worked on their issues over time, and then he grew to trust her.

wayfarer, thank you for the book rec! Perhaps I need a step by step guide and not only to focus on understanding why/ where the reactions come from. I will purchase that today. And I agree with you that any long term R is complicated and challenging at times. I think for me, I have the additional challenge of not allowing my feelings about our BD time to creep into every argument and become the automatic wired response! Itís very strange how powerful those emotions feel even tho I know they are irrational and not productive.

Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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Blu,

You mi girl Blu. Wow, I see your feelings. I haven't rationalized my Wife affair or minimalized hers like you have your husband.

I will add my feelings (maybe rational perspective here). My wife told me, after reflecting on her affair she did it, to make me feel the pain I was causing her. Is that possible, yeah. But, all I remember was seeing red. Like really bruh? But she was giving me her feelings. I can't control them.

My wife and I have been having arguments lately as well. She likes to do things her way, and I have to constantly remind her that, things will not always work out the way you plan them in your head. To her credit, she has been working hard on dealing with missed expectations and letting go of things she can't control, but that still leads to some disagreements.

I too sometimes blame her for things and project my feelings at the moment on her.

There are times, where I envy some of the people that walked away from their WW spouse and allowed them to deal with the consequences of losing their S. But that's me trying to project what consequences, and pain I want my wife to feel. I have always been a person that has to show people when they wrong me, or tell me I can't do something. I lived my life on proving people wrong and working to provide justice (in my own way) of when I thought a person didn't get what I thought they should have. So now, I'm stuck in this place, where, I'm learning that living like that has caused me miss out on a lot of happy moments and added unneeded stress and anxiety. But my need to show her the pain she caused me, drives me crazy some days.

Blu, I agree with you, the need for genuine remorse is needed for a Broken Marriage to start the healing process and for it to grow stronger. I have seen my wife break down and shake and her shame shine through. She has also talked to one of my friends, he has a WW and she gave he perspective of why she thought his WW was doing what she was doing. He's doing a lot betta now. That remorse she showed helps us moved forward.

Lastly, we also retreat to our habits when arguing and then come back and apologize, something we didn't do years ago, but in the moment she and I both have said, "why couldn't we do that during the argument".

Stay safe Blu, we are starting to see an uptick at work. We have a very strong policy on COVID so hopefully we get thru this without much interference. I stand next to your soap box in agreement.


M:37 W:37
T:11 M:10
S17, S13, S10, S4
BD:06/28/17
OM confirmed 07/20/17
Recon the M 10/29/17
Working hard:2gether

Onward and forward

This process is not a sprint it's a marathon! Patience, Patience, Patience.
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Joejoe, buddy, so good to read from you! Itís the best when people keep coming back over the years and update. I think we really get the most wisdom in just moving through these sitches over time ó I learn more about myself and this M with each year that passes. All the reading, self help and counseling is not a replacement for just going through it. Marathon, not a sprint.

I can relate to that feeling of thinking the grass would be greener on the other side ó what if we had Díd, a clean break from this mess and just started over somewhere else. No baggage. No betrayals. I thought about that more in the early years of piecing and much less in the last couple years. I donít think about it now tho. I have come to start appreciated what I have gained by sticking this out and doing the hard work.

- I appreciate that I have a partner that is also willing to do that hard work. Itís a more meaningful kind of love.
- I donít imagine my M is something better or that he could be a certain way, and Iím learning to accept what I actually have.
- I like myself more now than I did before ó I feel stronger and more confident. Being with him forces me to look at my flaws.
- I believe that if I ran off and started something new, that I would still bring my issues with me, whereas by staying with him, he knows how to challenge that.
- We are able to share our children, home and finances together. This brings me a lot of security about my future.
- Iím coming to a place where I think we can rewrite history again, but this time the memories donít have to look as painful but more serve a greater purpose.
- (insert more that I will discover in the future)

Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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Originally Posted by BluWave
1. What are the tools to challenging our own limiting reactions/emotions that have become so habitual and engrained in us, including from childhood? (ie I retreat into feeling as if Iím a victim and feel hurt, unheard and defensive)

I struggle with this. The dirty spoon is an example. I feel guilty for leaving a dirty spoon in the drawer, immediately feel defensive (like what gives you the right to attack me over a GD spoon??), go into victim mode (he's such an a-hole, why do I put up with him), have some flashbacks to my mom yelling at me for being messy, feel like he should unload the DW if it matters that much, etc. I even feel, strangely, like my womanhood or ability to be a good mom is being challenged, because most women are the ones who care more about a clean house, is he saying I'm raising my children to be pigs, I'm gross because I left a dirty spoon in the drawer-- all of that would race through my head at a million miles an hour and my immediate normal response is to be defensive or go on the attack.

Now when I sit and think through all this stuff (note this isn't something that happened yesterday... understanding my own reactions to this kind of interaction is something I've been thinking on and working on for more than a year, part of my 180s from originally reading DB and Gottman stuff) I was able to parse out that just about all of that baggage... was on me. It wasn't from my H. He's never said any of that. it probably comes more from my FOO and myself than anything he has said to me.

So the first step that worked for me, at least in this situation was... stop. Don't say ANYTHING. Just listen. Even if I was fuming inside and dying to say something back, I zipped my lip. That both prevented me from going to my usual reaction but also forced him to respond differently. And, for the most part (yesterday being an exception) he's become much better about this kind of thing-- says it nicely, like hey, looks like the dishwasher isn't doing a good job, I found this spoon. (I'm just using the spoon as an example-- it isn't always the dishwasher, it could be just about anything in this category.)

Then I noticed.. I had that same response NO MATTER HOW he said it to me. Because he started saying it more nicely and I *still* felt guilty and defensive. That helped me realize that this was my issue, more than his.

Taking that beat has really helped me in a lot of ways better interpret what my H is actually saying or doing from an intellectual space, without going immediately to the ingrained emotional response. Alison helped me with this a lot too, seeing where my own behaviors were actually aimed at getting some response out of H and it was a form of trying to maintain control.

Sometimes that beat is enough. Sometimes it needs to be three deep breaths. Sometimes I say, I can't really do this right now, I'm sorry, can we pick it up in a minute? And take the time I need to think through what is going on, what I'm really hearing from him and what blanks I'm filling in from my own experience and emotional response.

This has helped me in my interaction with my mom, too, quite a bit. She can say some nutty things and my immediate usual response is to get frustrated with her, and I know she thinks I jump all over her for taking the smallest misstep. Now I take that same beat with her and try to separate out what I'm hearing vs what me just reacting to her or the context.

Naming your own emotional response in the moment helps too. Rather than just feeling defensive and that huge spurt of adrenaline fueling your response, being able to say wow, I feel defensive right now, helped me at least to calm down. And if you get to the point where you can also name that to your H-- I'm sorry, I'm feeling kind of defensive right now-- that also can help him understand what is going on for you in that moment.

Once you can take that beat and control your initial emotional response, then another step you can take is to listen carefully to what it is that your H is saying. What is he really trying to communicate to you? A lot of times it isn't in the words he's using-- those are often the same old retreads as well. Be curious. Ask deepening questions. (Another very, very serendipitous thing that happened for me at the same time as this whole crisis was that I had the opportunity to participate in this incredible 18 month leadership fellowship, a lot of which was about learning how to be a better listener/communicator, and I had an executive coach also who helped me with a lot of this in a work context.) See where he's coming from. I think a lot of times it can defuse your own emotional response to understand where he's really coming from, because it is often not about you (something you can be defensive about) but rather how he feels, which you can probably empathize with.

Later, spend some time parsing through what happened. How did you feel? What did you say? What might you have said instead? What is really at the heart of your regular emotional response? If you were a fly on the wall and observing another couple having the same conversation, what would you think?

Anyway, just some thoughts that helped me.

Originally Posted by BluWave
2. At what point does our own belief system, including the lies we tell ourself, become harmful and when does it no longer matter? (ie I have believed that my Hs A with X-OW was not as meaningful as it may have been in order to accept it happened)

This is a tough one. I think we all have our own realities in our heads, and any two people who have a shared experience will have somewhat different interpretations of that experience. That is natural and normal. I think we all color our memories and beliefs about certain facts to help us make better sense of the world and our places within it. I think you can also choose to have a certain view of the world-- for instance, the cashier in the store is kinda rude, you might think wow, that person really doesn't like me. Or you might think wow, that person is having a bad day. I wonder if he's okay. I choose the latter, always. I could be totally wrong-- the guy could not like me. But what I don't know doesn't hurt me in this instance.

Something big, like how serious your H's A was... I think... it depends on you. I think sometimes, you can choose to feel a certain way because it helps to to make sense of the whole thing and better accept where you are now. It could be that your H participates in this too, even-- maybe he said ILY to her, and now he thinks, I can't believe I said that, I wasn't ever really in love with her. or whatever. You're both able to label the A as not so serious and part of how you're able to handle it and move on together.

The question is-- does that gnaw at you? Do you worry about it? If it bothers you-- and I think it might because you are bringing it up here-- then I think it is worth thinking through. Roll the idea around. What would it mean to you NOW if you accepted that your H had a more meaningful relationship with the OW than you had accepted in the past? What does that change? What does not change? What feelings does it bring up for you? Honor them, feel them, think them. Give yourself time to be okay with this new knowledge. (Also... how sure are you that this was a lie? Do you need to open up the conversation with your H to understand, more? Will he be able to be open and honest to you or will he be scared of upsetting you? if so, how do you set the stage for a conversation where he can be open and you can believe him when he says how he felt, or didn't feel, back then? It may even be that his truth is now that it was just a fantasy or whatever, no matter how real it seemed to him then... if he says that to you now, will that make a difference in how you view the objective "truth" of the situation?)

I don't know if all these questions help or hurt... just some thoughts that have been rolling around in my head, contemplating your question.

HUGS to you. xoxo M


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
9/20-present R attempt #2
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May!

As usual, you have given me soooo much to think about. I am going to really think on this. I need to. Thank you for always pushing me to dig deeper!

Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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Blu, I can't remember reading your original story. I only knew the pieces you shared here and there on threads. It just guts me because I can feel your pain and understand it. This is all so hard and confusing at times. I second guess myself constantly about how I should handle something or how I did/didn't react. I am amazed at your strength and ability for such resilience through so many hard hits in the past few years. I agree it can be so difficult sometimes to...know what to do with our spouses. To figure out how to reconcile all of the junk. Which slots in your brain or heart do you shelve these things in while trying to figure out how to process and make sense of it all. I feel like I do well for awhile and feel so freaking great about myself and then crash and burn for a bit. Thanks for sharing your journey.


me: 46 h: 49
m: 24 T: 27
DD1:20 DD2:17 DS:12
BD1: PA for 2 yrs 08/2016
BD2: OW is one of my closest friends 12/2016
BD3: H wants a D 11/2019
Now: He is in the same house, but has filed for divorce.
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Hi everyone,

Missing some of my friends here. I look for updates but not everyone sticks around. I feel like I should update, but canít think of much to add. Coming up on 6 years since H has been back. We really donít talk about the past much or what happened, no reason to anymore. I recall years ago hoping and wondering if I would ever get to a time when it didnít occupy so much real estate in my mind, and it seems I have arrived.

It feels strange to even talk about it. Far more things I would like to talk about ó Covid, politics, social inequities, our schools, college planning for kids ó but this is not the place. Work is still busy ó Iím generally over worked, patients are sick & dying patients. Itís what we allowed to happen, so sadly no surprise there. ... Had both vaccine doses, so Iím incredibly grateful for that! All things considered my kids are doing well. Very fortunate for that. Still distance learning only where I am. But I understand the reasoning and our teachers have a strong union, which they deserve. You see, there I go, not talking about my M. Who would have thunk it 6-7 years ago?!? Lol.

H and I are doing well. Uneventful. We enjoy one anotherís company. Love having a nice yard and hot tub. Itís nice to destress after work. I think before Covid, I was still driving kids around too much. They had a lot of activities and I was volunteering more. Itís nice to be present with the family and home for dinner.

In terms my my GAL, this last year has made that harder in some ways, but also easier in important ways. I miss travel and being able to spend time with people. I have made the best friends I could imagine at my age. I also have come to love my alone time and exercising. Who knew? Iím also studying for a test right now for critical care. Trying to keep the body and brain healthy! Ha! Planning some wonderful trips for next summer and fall. I hope it works out. Travel feeds my soul. It also needs to be safe and feel morally right.

Drop in and say hello. Wish I had more to offer. Iím rather boring most days tho and I welcome a drama free life.

Stay healthy everyone! Mask up! Stay safe.
Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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Blu,

What's up? Good to see you and the fambam is doing good. I have received both of my COVID shots as well. My wife and I have reached normalcy as well. And my mind isn't filled with 3 1/2 years ago either. We really don't talk about back then, And I have ran my course of asking why. I have been helping out a friend dealing with a WW. He's is doing a lot better. But when I talk to him sometimes, I have some flashbacks, but they go away so fast, I'm thankful for that.

I have been thinking about politics, the stock market, and traveling. My wife bought tickets for my FIL and I to go to NY last year in March, but we had to cancel those plans because of the Pandy, but she still has the AirBnB credits, so she has planned a new trip for us in September. My FIL want to waits until it feels a little more secure and safe and after he gets the vaccine. So hopefully we are able to make it to the Big Apple.

My wife is doing a lot, she's a stay at home mom, defacto teacher, and Mommy Uber to our boys. We have been working hard staying safe throughout the last year. And keep our boys involved to elevate the stress on their mental state. Not going to school has none been good for our boys. Can wait to get them back in school.


M:37 W:37
T:11 M:10
S17, S13, S10, S4
BD:06/28/17
OM confirmed 07/20/17
Recon the M 10/29/17
Working hard:2gether

Onward and forward

This process is not a sprint it's a marathon! Patience, Patience, Patience.
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Hi Blu,

Thanks for posting an update. I've been thinking of you and your work and am so very glad to hear you've received both doses of the vaccine. I'm also really happy to hear also that you guys have reached a place where the past doesn't occupy much real estate and you can enjoy your lives together, the kids, the silver linings of this crazy time, the hot tub. (I want a hot tub!! But I think I will settle for a soaking bathtub... emailed the contractor today.)

I wanted to let you know just how important your words have been to me. One thing you have said from the start is that true remorse needs humility. That word really stuck with me, partially because I wasn't seeing it in my H but also that I didn't know, truly, if he was capable of it given his personality. So this has been something that sat in the corner of my mind even as I have dismissed my desire to see my H choking on his remorse, the rending-of-the-clothes version of R as a fantasy.

We had a number of conversations over the past week and weekend, and lo and behold... the humility has finally arisen. That word is the perfect description and it hit me in the face like a slap when I realized what I was hearing and seeing, finally, was what you said all along was a very necessary part of the process. It is excruciating in a way to have to watch this process unfold right in front of your eyes, oh-so-slowly, and of course I'm also looking for actions on top of words. But I just wanted to share with you how meaningful your posts have been for me, how helpful it is to have the guidance of someone who has walked a similar (though not the same) path before.

The other thing that has really stayed with me and helped me so much was a long post you gave me right at the beginning. I copied and pasted it to my phone and read it over and over every day. That I was the queen of my castle and should hold my head high. I have a notes section of my phone and was going back over things and saw it... it still rings so true today for me, and your words really got me through a very difficult time.

Fingers crossed for travel when the time is right!

xx May


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
9/20-present R attempt #2
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I want to reply to you better and update soon. Itís been a challenge because I canít use a computer for this at work (nurse life) and now on my days off, my kids are home and on the computers! So mostly Iím trying to post from this little phone. Annoying.

JoeJoe, I am so happy to read your updates! Please keep coming back and update here or on your thread. It gives people so much hope to read about success stories. Itís also important for Newcomers to see how long the process takes and that time/patience are everything.

May, I canít even begin to express clearly how much your words mean to me. You and your story are one of the main reasons I keep coming back and checking frequently. Iím so happy to read that you are turning these corners. I also want you to know how much I learn from you. I have often been stubborn in my belief that my H was wrong and that perhaps I am justified in my own hurt/anger. And while that might be true, I can see more clearly as the years go by it has also been a hinderance in our intimacy. Your approach to your sitch ó which has been far more patient and understanding ó is something that I have tried to learn from and adopt. So thank you.

And on that note Iíll add that we had a talk about the past recently. It has been so long that we talked about what happened. Iíll revisit this when I have a proper keyboard (eye roll) but I will say, this is the first conversation we have had about his affair and our separation where I didnít feel emotionally triggered. Itís taken 6-7 years, but for me that is progress! I donít think there is much to be gained by dwelling in the past, but by having rational and nonemotional conversations, I can see how much easier it is to be open, honest and forthcoming about details. I can also see how over the years his own perspective of himself and his A is shifting. It helps me to understand him better and accept what a mistake if all was.

Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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Hi Blu,

So good to hear an update, as always. (((Blu)))

I'm so glad to hear things continue to go well, and you were able to have a conversation about the A without feeling triggered. That is wonderful progress. And even though I agree that there is little to be gained from the past, I do think it is also healthy to explore and be able to talk about the past together. The fact that it *was* triggering to you previously and was not this last time says to me that you are continuing to heal, and those feelings may be (or may have been) partially blocking your willingness to reengage in a deeper intimacy with your H.

I remember you saying that you were thinking about your view of his A, and his view of the A, and that maybe you'd thought of it in a certain way in order to help you make sense of it. I wonder if these conversations can help you guys to get on the same page and that might help you let go of some of that fear that you'd been somehow sugarcoating it to yourself? Maybe I'm totally offbase! Just a thought.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if future conversations may still trigger an emotional response, but I bet that dealing with those lingering feelings and letting them go will help both of you grow your emotional intimacy. That is really nice to see from where I sit, at the very very very beginning of this part of the journey. Thank you for sharing!!

Also, FWIW I am no paragon of patience and understanding! I believe myself to be a generally very empathetic and understanding person, but I am NOT PATIENT generally speaking. One of my biggest challenges. And I also completely agree that you and I are both justified in our anger. I guess I am also just not good at being angry generally. But it does make me happy to feel like my experiences and words have helped someone, especially someone who has helped me in such a profound way. I'm so glad to know you.

xx May


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
9/20-present R attempt #2
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Thank you, May.

I am not sure how to define "sugarcoat." My mindset 6-7 years ago was different. I think in order for me to take my H back, I had a narrative that I needed to believe in order to accept what he had done. The damage was too great. I needed to believe that it was a mistake and that he didn't love her. It felt too painful that he could just pick up and leave our family for this OW and was in love with her only to turn around a year later and change his mind again. I was so overwhelmed, heart broken and humiliated to even think about it logically. And, none of it was really logical. So whatever he told me that reinforced my narrative -- that it was all a big mistake that he regretted -- I clung to. I heard what I wanted to hear in order to feel safe. I also realize now that he was protecting me by not sharing details that would hurt me further. Our first couple years of reconciling were so rocky, emotional and confusing. It was hard to do the real work of piecing because I was so easily emotionally triggered. I remember driving down the street on a normal day and feeling a random onset of doom, sadness and confusion. Sometimes I felt like I couldn't breathe. I had to learn to talk myself out of this and remind myself that I was safe. The trauma was legit.

My H didn't have a couple flings, EAs or just tell me he wanted D. He had a full on relationship with someone else for a long time and left our marriage, home and family. I don't know how many sane people would take someone back after that. I think in some ways I became insane just trying to make sense of it and navigating the changes. I also was grieving the loss of a parent and child, so I was vulnerable. So after he came back and we had these discussions, I think he was walking on eggshells to protect me. At times I would lash out, completely withdraw or ask the same questions repeatedly. I just couldn't make sense of what had happened. I also developed some unhealthy coping mechanisms that I have had to work on. As I dealt with the trauma and as conversations got repeated over the years, I realized that his perspective shifted and further matched mine.

I don't know how much his perspective shifting is because I have convinced him and persuaded him. I also think that the longer times goes by and he is detached from what happened his own beliefs have shifted. And what I am wondering now is if that even matters? ... For instance, her name came up in reference to something a few weeks ago and I saw him roll his eyes, gasp and say under his breath "she's crazy." I don't think he said that to put on a front, as it appeared to be a natural reaction and I wasn't looking for one. What I do wonder, is if he has come to believe that about her because of our conversations over those years or because he has separated himself so much from what happened that he can see the past more clearly now. He has also said that he does not believe he was in love with her, that he doubted his decision to leave me for her the entire time and that it always felt wrong. He will also say that he thinks she lied to him all along and he didn't know what to believe.

This is the first time I have entertained the idea that his separateness from what happened could have been influenced by the last 6 years with me. It is also the first time that I am strong enough to accept that maybe I was wrong. Maybe he really did love her, want to be with her and maybe he came back to me because I made it so hard for him to stay away. He disagrees. And I don't know. I may never know. But I am finally okay thinking about it all without feeling sad or unsteady. So for me this is progress.

Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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Originally Posted by BluWave
Thank you, May.

This is the first time I have entertained the idea that his separateness from what happened could have been influenced by the last 6 years with me. It is also the first time that I am strong enough to accept that maybe I was wrong. Maybe he really did love her, want to be with her and maybe he came back to me because I made it so hard for him to stay away. He disagrees. And I don't know. I may never know. But I am finally okay thinking about it all without feeling sad or unsteady. So for me this is progress.

Blu


So in my readings - and I've done a lot!!! I'm also on another support board.

In regards to your H, he most likely did "love" her in a way at THAT time. I think the technical term is limerance. In his brokenness there was something missing in his relationship with you at the time that was filled temporarily by this other person. This person is only filling a specific need... not multiple ones that you had been doing as his spouse. It looks and feels like rainbows and unicorns because this one aspect which has been left unfulfilled is just amazing and they equate the amazing feeling to this person and all aspects (but that later proves fatal as they cannot maintain this state in real life). At some point the limerance wears out and then true guilt, anger and remorse set in. Often times the WS looks back in hindsight and truly questions their own decisions to be with that person at the time.

A book I read PRIOR to getting married was How to Affair Proof Your Marriage. Its definitely insightful as to how affairs begin and often why.

Also a book called Rebuilding is very helpful. It is geared to get someone who is divorced or on the path to D towards understanding and healing. But, what is in the book is very helpful. Many times these books are saying the same thing over and over again. However, it really delves into why relationships fail and the reasons we marry. The terms Over-responsible partner and Under-responsible partner really resonated deep with me. Now, I was already working on these aspects of myself prior to this book but it put it in more relatable terms for me that clicked. The book also goes over "rebellion" and how many relationships could survive if the other spouse new what was happening and had an understanding of the process while it was occurring. It helps you look at your prior M and the roles you each played and how they were influenced by your own parents M - once you recognize these things you can make changes into M2.0. I like the fact that this book unlike many out there had no religious component.

The book Love and Respect essentially says some very basic skills in what works in an M. It has a very strong religious component which was hard for me but the basic principles still stand. It is overly simplified but it can be a good starting place on where to improve how you relate to your spouse and in changing your ways of relating it has a magic effect of over time changing their ways of relating to you.

The bottom line is Blu AND May your H came out of the fog and chose you and the M. That was a terrible painful time in both of your lives and May even harder as your H had a lot of back and forth (which is normal from what I've read). May with more time your H will come to do an eye roll as well when this is brought up in a few years down the road. Neither of your H's will recognize who that person was back then - it will be like they were in a fog.

Nothing will ever erase what happened in your M. But, I'm a firm believer that with the right tools... time, space and true work on understanding of you and your partner that a better marriage can take place. That a deeper appreciation and deeper true unconditional love (a stage that many couples never reach) can happen. The Art of Love by Dr Beam is a great book that explains the love path.

It took you both a lot of courage to post your journey. The ups/downs. How you were feeling emotionally. The setbacks. The self care. Your own mood swings and desires in the M.

May you are on a strong path to a M where you can look back in 5yr and see how much you grew as a person, how much stronger you are, what your responsibilities to your M are and to yourself, and what an amazing role model you are for your daughters. It will never make the A go away but I think with more time and hindsight you can appreciate your journey much better and in 5yr your H will have so much more respect for you how you held it together during a time in his life where he didn't really recognize who he was.

Ugh... sorry for the verbal diarrhea... I think you both are strong women. smile

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I agree with KitCat. You both are amazing strong women. Thank you for sharing your journeys. (((BluWave))) (((May22)))


Me 51, H 55
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (18 and 20)
BD: Fall 2020
AP for at least 6 mos prior and still ongoing...
Divorce Started: Spring 2021


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Hi everyone,

Itís been about 4 months since Iíve updated so I thought I would pop on for a bit. I do still check here often and loosely follow several threads. Iím disappointed to see so many people leaving and no longer updating, but I understand why. Unfortunately the energy continues to shift in a negative direction and there is less quality support overall. I started reading here 7 years ago when my H left and things were quite different then. I have thought about if there is something different I can add to these boards, but I honestly donít have the motivation to take this on. I also refuse to waste my time arguing with people online. This place is for support and advice, with healthy boundaries, and not for protecting your own ego, defending your position or for put downs. If someone reading this doesnít like what Iím saying or agree with my assessments of the boards, I respectfully ask that you scroll through and NOT comment here with your own reply. I will not host a conversation about board usage on my own thread.

Where my M stands today. H has been back in the M for over 6 years. I have to think about the timeline because I lose track of the years now. Triggers and resentments continue to fade into the background. Occasional memories come up and I note them and move forward. I never thought this could be possible the first couple years of piecing because I felt so emotionally triggered so often. So I maintain my belief that all wounds do heal in time.

My M is not perfect at all. Is it better than pre BD? Maybe? I love my H and the home and family we created and continue to nurture. I think we have a stable and comfortable life together, which I love. Am I smitten or feel in love or in lust with him? Well, not like I was before all this! But thatís okay with me. I can also recognize I had an unhealthy love for him before BD for many years and perhaps even put him on a pedestal. And he was the nicest guy and super dad, but really, he didnít know how to state his needs and was a doormat at times that could not stand up to me. I was in turn impatient and frustrated or even controlling. And round and round we spun. That dynamic is no more.

We still have our disagreements and frustrations. Some dynamics are the same because we are the same people. We are also more self aware and more willing to compromise and change. I think that might be the key to a relationship lasting. Both people have to learn to be more flexible and own their issues. I am still a work in progress and will always be.

I see so much conversations on what is a deal breaker for people and they seem to be these things one can measure ó a PA, some amount of EAs, ďabuseĒ (which people also define differently), moving out of the house, some amount of time separated, filing for D, etc, etc. Donít we all have some bottom line when we enter a M? We all do! But let me tell you what happens when your spouse starts crossing those lines. Your perspective starts to shift as you go through the motions of it. As you both move forward, your actions, reactions and thus positions on said bottom lines will and do change! So stating ďonce this happens the M is overĒ is short sighted and ignorant. You do not know how you will feel until is actually happens! So please do not limit yourself or judge others. Because as a person that had a laundry list of bottom lines that got violated, I was forced to remeasure every value I had over and over again! But you know what? Itís been so many years now and my M works. It has nothing to do with our bottom lines or the betrayal we both committed. It works because we both choose to be here each day and make it work. Thatís all folks. Step into a more open minded way of thinking and you will find more benefits.

I continue to work as usual. Covid has slowed down. Our family is going on 2 big vacations this summer and Iím really excited about that! Our adult daughter is joining us so that should be wonderful/fun/stressful. Lol. I think the biggest update I have is that I am doing really well in the GAL and self care department. I have found a way of eating and exercising that I love! I feel good about my health and my body. I also have maintained some amazing friends that really feed my soul. My kids are awesome but each have had various hardships we try and support them through.

I welcome positive and thoughtful replies. For those of you reading that might need some nonjudgemental support, please feel free to reply here. So many of you I think about and would love to speak with. If you are a poster or newcomer and want to ask me something, please do so.

May ó if you are reading, I think about you often, and I can only imagine the rollercoaster you are on. I hope you will check in here if you see this!

All my best,
Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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Hey there,

hope all is well in your part of the world. I am still checking things out here too but I don't have as much time as I used to. You could say that I squandered the gift of time. I know this board will always hold a special place in my heart. It got me through the toughest time of my life. It helped shape me, helped change my mind, and I learned lots of relationshipo skills I wouldn't have otherwise. I think of many great posters here and I thank you and them.

I have a baby coming in less than a month, don't know if you saw my thread. I don't get on the gram much anymore so I'm not keeping up with anyone there. I am almost finished with the 4 agreements, it has been a good read. In many ways, it is a parallel to DB but coming at things from a different angle and honestly I love overthinking things so that is a huge plus for me.

Nice update. Have fun on the vacations.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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Blu,

What's up? You'll are on the Gram together. Wow, I didn't get an invite. I'm glad to see you and the fam bam is doing good.

This July will make 4 years since BD. My wife has worked hard to show her loyalty. My triggers still come, but very rarely. We just got back from Vegas last week, first trip since COVID started and first time being without the kids. We have a few family trips coming up as well.

I agree with out about the traffic and support that has left this site. The no non-sense tone that has taken hold seems to be a bit destructive. I don't have the time to try and counter some of the other posters comments. I really prescribed to AS (detachment with love), Sandi (respect yourself and don't chase behind your spouse) and TxHubby (you are the prize worth fighting for). But those philosophies are being transfixed, (you don't have to take it, and D if your spouse don't change immediately).

I have read some situations on here, where I think the LBS have reached the end of their journey with their spouse, and in my opinion, it was time to move on from their spouse, but it was my opinion, and not my choice, so I presented the information in that vein. Now people are on here calling people weak for not leaving their spouse sooner. And when they finally do, they say things like, "you should have done that months ago". That sentiment wasn't on this board 4 years ago. And I'm glad it wasn't, because, I probably would of been lost, reading some of the comments, on a divorce busting site, having commenters, push for D.

My wife and I have been dealing with a lot of emotional issues with our boys. Especially the two middle ones. The oldest one is here visiting for the Summer, and we have to always counter what his mother has allowed him to do.
I guess I will have to update my thread soon as well.


M:37 W:37
T:11 M:10
S17, S13, S10, S4
BD:06/28/17
OM confirmed 07/20/17
Recon the M 10/29/17
Working hard:2gether

Onward and forward

This process is not a sprint it's a marathon! Patience, Patience, Patience.
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Hey Blu,

A huge part of the reason I'm still here is waiting on updates from you and ovr. Piecing for almost a year now. It's nice to hear how other people are doing. Not that anyone can gauge their relationship next to another, but it helps me to gauge my mindset about where I should strive to be moving forward. Because it hasn't quite been a year I get hung up on triggers occasionally and it's nice to know that hurt while it's always going to linger just a little gets easier and easier with time. That life continues on. That people will still fight after all the mess and it doesn't spell disaster.

May isn't here right now. She may not return. Another poster Sage left bread crumbs on my thread of contact info and they've been communicating via email and spending much less time on here. H and I recently bought a home so I haven't had time to dig through my thread to find the pieces. But I intend to when things calm down and I can circle back and drop some May hints here for you. I know when she decided to exit she had trepidation missing out on updates from you.

Thank you for the time you spend/spent here. It's always appreciated and nice to have someone around who survived this. If for nothing else as a reminder that all MRs aren't doomed. That all WSs aren't irredeemable. And that LBSs can forgive and move on without forgetting.

Enjoy your breathers this summer. Given your work in the last year you truly, truly deserve that.


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Just a comment, but something that I have noticed is those that think the board has gotten negative seem to be those who have gotten a second chance from their WAS. It might be worth remembering that there are many on her whose S left them for another and have never looked back, not even for a second. A bit of empathy, from both sides, goes a long way.


Me: 39 W:41
T: 14 M: 11
S: 5

BD & OM Jun 2020
W moves out Aug 2020

"What happened happened, and couldn't have happened any other way...because it didn't"
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Only,

Wow, really your perspective is a little off IMO. The only thing that separates the LBS spouses that came back and the ones that didn't, is the choice of the WS. My Wife decided to give our Marriage another chance. That was her decision. Our relationship and M hasn't nothing to do with the tone of this forum. In August of 2017 when I came to this board. Not one person was telling me I need to get a Divorce (Maybe LH). Any person that I can vaguely remember. I also had people on this Forum calling out my actions in the Marriage and how it contributed to the downfall of the M, even thou my wife had an Affair. I had Vets on here giving me great advice about detaching and taking responsibility for my actions inside the M. I has AS, explicitly hounding me to detach with love, and don't do anything towards Divorce until you know you are ready. I followed the advice of the Vets, I didn't argue or push back with what they were saying, I updated my thread with as much information as possible and as accurate as possible. And, I got a bunch of 2x4s to the head but none of it felt negative and none of it felt like attacks. Most of it felt like heart felt advice.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2758010&page=11 (The start of my thread)

I had posters like 25, Txhubby, AS, Sandi, Holding, Joseph9 and many others really helping me along and hitting me upside the head about what type of husband and man I was. I don't see this type of interaction on here at the moment.

One of the reasons, I stopped posting as much, because, I didn't want my comments to come across as bragging or insensitive. My wife coming back hasn't always been great for me. I have struggled with staying in my Marriage, because Trust and loyalty is big for me. So, me saying that, I think could come across as insensitive for those, who WS haven't come back. But i wrestle with people in dire need of a person who's been thru where they have been and not coming across insensitive.

Onward and Forward

Last edited by joejoe1; 06/21/21 02:25 PM. Reason: corrections

M:37 W:37
T:11 M:10
S17, S13, S10, S4
BD:06/28/17
OM confirmed 07/20/17
Recon the M 10/29/17
Working hard:2gether

Onward and forward

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Originally Posted by BluWave
I have thought about if there is something different I can add to these boards, but I honestly donít have the motivation to take this on.


Oh I think you add something to the boards just by continuing to update now and then! A lot of people come here looking for hope more than anything else, and stories of reconciliation do wonders for building hope.

Quote
This place is for support and advice, with healthy boundaries, and not for protecting your own ego, defending your position or for put downs.


Completely agree. I don't post much anymore because I was tired of getting personally attacked if I posted something that someone else didn't agree with. I don't expect everyone to agree with everything I say, but I DO expect to be treated with respect just as I treat others with respect even if they don't agree with me. When that quits happening it's time to focus on other things in life!

Quote
Where my M stands today. H has been back in the M for over 6 years. I have to think about the timeline because I lose track of the years now. Triggers and resentments continue to fade into the background. Occasional memories come up and I note them and move forward. I never thought this could be possible the first couple years of piecing because I felt so emotionally triggered so often. So I maintain my belief that all wounds do heal in time.


Glad to hear things are still going well! Even though my XW and I did not reconcile our marriage, we have reconciled our relationship. Our wounds have also healed and we've found ourselves in a place of mutual love and respect even though we're no longer married or lovers. This past weekend she and the kids organized a surprise trip for me to Broken Bow, OK for my 60th birthday. We had an amazing time! We hiked, zip-lined, rode jet skis, spent the whole weekend as a family. Reconciling doesn't -have- to mean staying married. I've tried to explain that here, that "my way or the highway" isn't how things have to be.

Quote
Am I smitten or feel in love or in lust with him? Well, not like I was before all this! But thatís okay with me. I can also recognize I had an unhealthy love for him before BD for many years and perhaps even put him on a pedestal. And he was the nicest guy and super dad, but really, he didnít know how to state his needs and was a doormat at times that could not stand up to me. I was in turn impatient and frustrated or even controlling. And round and round we spun. That dynamic is no more.

We still have our disagreements and frustrations. Some dynamics are the same because we are the same people. We are also more self aware and more willing to compromise and change. I think that might be the key to a relationship lasting. Both people have to learn to be more flexible and own their issues. I am still a work in progress and will always be.

I see so much conversations on what is a deal breaker for people and they seem to be these things one can measure ó a PA, some amount of EAs, ďabuseĒ (which people also define differently), moving out of the house, some amount of time separated, filing for D, etc, etc. Donít we all have some bottom line when we enter a M? We all do! But let me tell you what happens when your spouse starts crossing those lines. Your perspective starts to shift as you go through the motions of it. As you both move forward, your actions, reactions and thus positions on said bottom lines will and do change! So stating ďonce this happens the M is overĒ is short sighted and ignorant. You do not know how you will feel until is actually happens! So please do not limit yourself or judge others. Because as a person that had a laundry list of bottom lines that got violated, I was forced to remeasure every value I had over and over again! But you know what? Itís been so many years now and my M works. It has nothing to do with our bottom lines or the betrayal we both committed. It works because we both choose to be here each day and make it work. Thatís all folks. Step into a more open minded way of thinking and you will find more benefits.


Very well said! And you didn't think you had anything to add to the boards smile


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

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AS! Please come back! You were so key to my own sitch, I think the LBSs that are currently posting sure could use your guidance and insights.

As far as getting personally attacked when someone disagrees with you, unfortunately this is the internet. frown Par for the course. But I so highly value people like you, sandi, and so many of the other vets that were around in the thick of my sitch that I sure hope that you'll come back and be a regular contributor again.


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Blu, thanks for sharing your update and thoughts. If Iím hearing you correctly, the forum is at its most inclusive and when itís encouraging posters to slow down, identify their own personal flaws and limits, and set matching boundaries and improvement plans. Itís at its most divisive when we argue what limits and changes posters should set/make.

Those who reconcile tend to take neither a hard-line nor a doormat approach. They find more patience than they thought they had, but make the limits clear to themselves and their partner.

I am grateful to this forum for helping me get a 2nd and 3rd chanceóeven if I ultimately walked away. I find the tools helpful in day-to-day life with my children and while dating.



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Dear BluWave, ovrrnbw, Wayfarer and joejoe,

Nice to read you have all reconciled. Just out of curiousity, because I havenít read your threads,
may I ask if one of you was confronted with an H or W in MLC or not?

My H for sure has a MLC and I know the process usually takes years and years, thatís why I was curious if any
of your reconciliations were with a spouse who came out of it.

I know not many Mís survive MLC so always nice to read one if I get the chanceÖ

Many thanks.

Eagle


Me (43) H (42)
M:14 T:18, S17, S14 & S14
4/19 BD1 ILYB & OW1 til 2/20
8/20 Moves abroad for work
12/20 Possible new OW2, denies but wants divorce(no action)
09/21 Proof of OW2
10/21 D in progress (Me)
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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Glad to hear things are still going well! Even though my XW and I did not reconcile our marriage, we have reconciled our relationship. Our wounds have also healed and we've found ourselves in a place of mutual love and respect even though we're no longer married or lovers. This past weekend she and the kids organized a surprise trip for me to Broken Bow, OK for my 60th birthday. We had an amazing time! We hiked, zip-lined, rode jet skis, spent the whole weekend as a family. Reconciling doesn't -have- to mean staying married. I've tried to explain that here, that "my way or the highway" isn't how things have to be.


AS,

Enjoyed reading this part. Indeed, itís not all about staying married, this story is equally beautiful to me as well.
Nice to read you and your XW have such a good relationship!

If it doesnít work out anymore as a couple this is the thing we all should be aiming for!

Thanks for that!




Last edited by Eagle3; 06/21/21 06:09 PM.

Me (43) H (42)
M:14 T:18, S17, S14 & S14
4/19 BD1 ILYB & OW1 til 2/20
8/20 Moves abroad for work
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Originally Posted by wayfarer
Hey Blu,

A huge part of the reason I'm still here is waiting on updates from you and ovr. Piecing for almost a year now. It's nice to hear how other people are doing. Not that anyone can gauge their relationship next to another, but it helps me to gauge my mindset about where I should strive to be moving forward. Because it hasn't quite been a year I get hung up on triggers occasionally and it's nice to know that hurt while it's always going to linger just a little gets easier and easier with time. That life continues on. That people will still fight after all the mess and it doesn't spell disaster.

May isn't here right now. She may not return. Another poster Sage left bread crumbs on my thread of contact info and they've been communicating via email and spending much less time on here. H and I recently bought a home so I haven't had time to dig through my thread to find the pieces. But I intend to when things calm down and I can circle back and drop some May hints here for you. I know when she decided to exit she had trepidation missing out on updates from you.

Thank you for the time you spend/spent here. It's always appreciated and nice to have someone around who survived this. If for nothing else as a reminder that all MRs aren't doomed. That all WSs aren't irredeemable. And that LBSs can forgive and move on without forgetting.

Enjoy your breathers this summer. Given your work in the last year you truly, truly deserve that.


Thank you, I am truly flattered by you mentioning me. I should update mine too and I will this week.

I want to advance the notion that all WW's/WH's are, in fact, redeemable. I've discussed this at length in my own thread. Being someone who has been unfaithful (not when married, but still), I guess I have a stake in proving this. But I also think that looking at people's worst actions, or politics seems to be huge these last 6 years, and then calling them irredeemable is absolutely detrimental to society and culture. There is God and truth and beauty in every one of us, and it is so easy to dismiss and write people off.

I am glad to see you are doing OK too. I need to read your thread as well. This place can be so awesome, and I thank everyone for contributing.


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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Thank you, I am truly flattered by you mentioning me. I should update mine too and I will this week.
No rush on my account. I just wonder about you and the wife and the impending bundle of joy and hope all is well.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
I want to advance the notion that all WW's/WH's are, in fact, redeemable. I've discussed this at length in my own thread. Being someone who has been unfaithful (not when married, but still), I guess I have a stake in proving this... There is God and truth and beauty in every one of us, and it is so easy to dismiss and write people off.
I'm in the same boat. I was unfaithful in MR #1. Granted my waywardness was fed by a lot of things people should walk away from (or run) but couldn't. However, there were better ways to deal with ALL of the causes including the ones that were rooted solely in me. Which is why I know all WS aren't sociopaths or abusers. Sometimes it really is people making a series of selfish decisions.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
I am glad to see you are doing OK too. I need to read your thread as well. This place can be so awesome, and I thank everyone for contributing.
I need to update as well. I realized it's been months.

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Originally Posted by joejoe1
Wow, really your perspective is a little off IMO. The only thing that separates the LBS spouses that came back and the ones that didn't, is the choice of the WS. My Wife decided to give our Marriage another chance. That was her decision. Our relationship and M hasn't nothing to do with the tone of this forum.


Hey JJ, this was the point that I was trying to make. That the second chance is beyond our control.

My STBXW has been in a relationship with OM for over a year, since before she even moved out. She has not once looked back, blamed me for everything, threatened me with court and lied like it was going out of fashion. What would your advice be in this situation?

Now I haven't read your sitch but your W did the opposite, she gave you another chance. Obviously the advice would have been different because the signs were presumably different.

I just think that we need to understand that everyone here will have a different perspective because, whilst all these sitchs' have the same general issues, our experiences are all different and have shaped us differently.

Originally Posted by joejoe1
Not one person was telling me I need to get a Divorce (Maybe LH). Any person that I can vaguely remember. I also had people on this Forum calling out my actions in the Marriage and how it contributed to the downfall of the M, even thou my wife had an Affair. I had Vets on here giving me great advice about detaching and taking responsibility for my actions inside the M. I has AS, explicitly hounding me to detach with love, and don't do anything towards Divorce until you know you are ready. I followed the advice of the Vets, I didn't argue or push back with what they were saying, I updated my thread with as much information as possible and as accurate as possible. And, I got a bunch of 2x4s to the head but none of it felt negative and none of it felt like attacks. Most of it felt like heart felt advice.


I would say that this was my experience as well. I have been called out when necessary and encouraged in the same way. I respect and appreciate any advice given, as someone has taken the time out of their life to try and help someone else. I have never felt a negative vibe or felt attacked, well maybe once, but it didn't bother me and others had my back anyway.

Originally Posted by joejoe1
One of the reasons, I stopped posting as much, because, I didn't want my comments to come across as bragging or insensitive. My wife coming back hasn't always been great for me. I have struggled with staying in my Marriage, because Trust and loyalty is big for me. So, me saying that, I think could come across as insensitive for those, who WS haven't come back. But i wrestle with people in dire need of a person who's been thru where they have been and not coming across insensitive.


I understand what you're saying JJ and appreciate the consideration that you might come across as insensitive. I'm sorry that you are still struggling with your new M, I sincerely hope that things work out for the best.

My final word, and this is not directed to you JJ, would be that it is one thing to comment on the negative vibe here, but rather than comment on it and disappear, why not set the tone that you would like to see and repay all the help and care that was passed on to you. Be the change you want to see in the world type thing.


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Sorry for the hijack Blu.


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Hi Blu,

I do stop by here occasionally but I haven't posted because I just haven't felt up to dealing with the negativity and attacks from some corners. I have tried to be positive and compassionate and give advice as I can, but I definitely agree with several of the others here on the tone and content of much of the current advice. But now that you posted, I wanted to jump back in and say THANK YOU and how grateful I am to you for continuing to share your story. Your openness, thoughtfulness, and compassion just shine through every sentence you write, and it has been invaluable to me beyond words to have been able to learn from someone who has walked such a similar path. Wayfarer, you are in this same category as well. And with both of you, even where we had differences in our situations or how we chose to deal with them, I have never felt anything but care and support.

The reason I stepped back is tható as you know wellópiecing is hard. The triggers, the flashbacks, the anger, the sadness and lossó that all still exists, whether you end up reconciling your M or moving on. I still am working through my own healing and figuring out how to move through the piecing process with my H at the same time. At this point, what I need is support and advice in alignment with the direction I've chosen to go, not backseat drivers who somehow think it is helpful to throw little bombs of distrust and whom I honestly think would feel vindicated if my M failed after all of this. I think many people who were in a similar situation to me may have chosen to step back if their situations took a turn for the worse because of the judgment and snark that lives here-- and those voices can be loud and hurtful. I still am sad about AlisonUK, who split after LH wrote a really cruel comment on her thread.

AnywayÖ I realize you specifically said you didnít want a discussion of board usage on your thread and here I went! But in reading through the responses, hereís my two cents: where I see conflict is when you have posters counseling patience, forgiveness, and open-mindedness rather than cutting your losses quickly and moving on, those suggestions are being decried as weak, ďbeta,Ē having no self-confidence, being a doormat, whatever. I will say that in my situation, it is possible that if Iíd kicked my H to the curb that reconciliation would have happened more quickly, or not at all, and maybe Iíd be fine with that at this point. I donít know. I do think, regardless, that if I hadnít had the patience to let him go through the process he needed to go through to realize what he wanted, we wouldnít be where we are today. The whole thing was awful and hurtful and incredibly painful to go through and I know that many of my friends here had a hard time witnessing it. But for me, coming here and having people (like you) willing to actually LISTEN and help me understand my own boundaries and values, and live them outó which in my case meant staying in the Mó was priceless. I think it is important for us all to remember we are different people in different situations, and our job as posters is to help the OP figure out the right path for THEM, not just what you would do in the same situation. And I do feel that the loudest posters right now are just a big cheering squad pushing people to leave their WSs and move on, and those of us who might have something different to offer are simply attacked. I feel badly for the newbie LBSs, but I donít have the emotional bandwidth to deal with the aggressive posters right now.

That being said-- Blu, Wayfarer, Over, joejoe, Steve-- what do you guys think about getting active over on the Piecing board? I know I'd really value your thoughts and experiences and others probably would as well. Piecing is so different from DBing and perhaps it would also be easier on everyone to have a separate thread where we can focus on those specific issues? I would love to hear what you're all up to as well!

Blu, I echo Wayfarer here in a huge thank you to you for continuing to share and post. Just reading this in your most recent post:

Originally Posted by Blu
Where my M stands today. H has been back in the M for over 6 years. I have to think about the timeline because I lose track of the years now. Triggers and resentments continue to fade into the background. Occasional memories come up and I note them and move forward. I never thought this could be possible the first couple years of piecing because I felt so emotionally triggered so often. So I maintain my belief that all wounds do heal in time.

was incredibly helpful. Itís been nine months now since my H ended his A for good and we began the slow process of reconciliation. I canít quite put a finger on when I moved from reconciliation into piecing, but I feel we are there now. However, I do struggle with triggers, and we are only at the very beginning stages of piecing, I think. Knowing it took a couple of years to settle down for you makes me feel less stressed out about the fact it is still happening to me.

My thread filled up on Newcomers and I don't know that I want to open a new one here. I'm also a little skittish about opening one in Piecing-- I know this might sound silly, but I don't want to jinx anything! smile So because I know you care and want to knowó I hope this is okay but Iíll hijack your thread for a quick sec. Overall, I'm doing well. We started MC and that has been both positive (in that we are talking about hard stuff with a mediator) and difficult (since it brings up really hard things for me). I still have some anger and sadness I'm processing about the A. I do trust my H. He tells me heís sorry and he loves me almost every day. He is frustrated that Iím still stuck in the past and wishes I could spend more energy being focused on what we have now and where we want to go. He also wants to dig into why he did what he did in therapy and I know heís struggling with reconciling the fact that he did this enormous and awful thingó not just one bad choice, but literally thousands of individual decisions over years that all added up into the affairó with his own conscience. He says he does not have feelings for AP any more and has said a few things over the past couple of weeks that are along the lines of he didn't feel about her the way he'd presented it to me in the thick of things, but I havenít followed up on that line of conversation as I really donít want to push at all. Iím also trying to be okay with the fact that regardless of how we look back at it now, it happenedó but it also is in the past and canít be changed.

There are some aspects of our R that are a million times better than before. He is a full 50-50 partner in the children and household workó actually, to be honest, right now he is more like 75 and Iím 25. He has been incredibly supportive and encouraging of my new job and is basically handling all the kid pickups, piano lessons, soccer practices, etc. He has been doing most of the grocery shopping for awhile now and weíre 50-50 on cooking. He still isnít the best at cleaning but we have a decent balance (I let him load the dishwasher wink ). I feel supported and loved. I just still canít quite reconcile all of that with the affair and the lying and all the things he said to me during the A about his feelings (man, I KNOW he regrets opening his fat mouth so much). And there are still issues from M1.0 that rear their ugly heads and we need to figure out how to deal with in a new way-- we're better at this, but not perfect. So overallÖ I feel we are on the right path, but we have a loooooooong ways to go.

Kids are wonderful, new job is very challenging but Iím loving it, and youíre now inspiring me to get back to exercising and taking care of my body (Iíve gained back all my post-BD weight loss and more, been pretty lazy).

I miss you. Thank you for stopping back in. xx May


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
9/20-present R attempt #2
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Originally Posted by may22
I still am sad about AlisonUK, who split after LH wrote a really cruel comment on her thread.

Ok so I hate to hijack BWs thread but since i was called out I feel I have the right to defend myself. Alison had just explained on her thread the her H verbally abused her to the point that she was in tears and then mentioned in the thread that there is progress. My response to that was " in what world is that progress". Again, my stance is verbally abusing a women to tears is not acceptable behavior but of course that is my opinion. May maybe I am an "a-hole" for having that opinion but that's how I feel. Now I probably could have delivered the message better but i was pretty angry at the time.


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Originally Posted by may22

That being said-- Blu, Wayfarer, Over, joejoe, Steve-- what do you guys think about getting active over on the Piecing board? I know I'd really value your thoughts and experiences and others probably would as well. Piecing is so different from DBing and perhaps it would also be easier on everyone to have a separate thread where we can focus on those specific issues? I would love to hear what you're all up to as well!


I am in. JJ and I have tried at various times to get more activity over there. We both have threads. I do think there are some unique challenges for those of us that are piecing our MR back together that could really be helpful to discuss as a group! I know I have been vocal about my struggles, and would like to hear more perspecitves.


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SteveLW, I've been talking about heading over there for a while. I should probably just pull the trigger. It's a dead board that shouldn't be. It'll never be as active as let's say Life after the big D but it would be nice to have some amount of balance out there. I'm in.

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Way,

Like Steve has mentioned, I have posted there on every update have made for a couple years now. But the only response I get is from Steve. I would love to have other opinions on some of the things I go thru. I think piecing never stops and my wife and I have been working on our new Marriage sine Oct 2017. It's been a lot of up and downs. And It's hard to post those events in the "newcomers" thread, because I don't want to make my problem bigger than the crisis some of the DBer's in the newcomer thread is going thru.

Reading Only comments to me, makes me realize that there's a vast misunderstanding on what DBing is all about. I don't think any newcomer knows if their Spouse is coming back, we just do the work on ourselves to save ourselves, no matter the outcome. Even if our WS comes back the work we need to do on ourselves stays the same. Even after my wife and I decided to work on our M, we still struggled. I wanted to walk out on many occasions. Feeling like, I can't trust this person, it's so horrible living with a person, that you believe you can't trust. None of her actions were leading me to believe she was doing anything wrong, But I spent almost two years being hyper vigilant trying to make sure she didn't hurt me like she did before. And I'm pretty sure, I would of been that way, if we didn't reconcile and I ended up in a new relationship at the same time my wife and I Reconned. I wasn't no where near healed and neither was my wife when we Reconned, and we still have flare ups here and there.

I just don't like the comments, that make it seems like we are somehow different because we reconned, it comes off as divisive and creates and divisions in the posters.


M:37 W:37
T:11 M:10
S17, S13, S10, S4
BD:06/28/17
OM confirmed 07/20/17
Recon the M 10/29/17
Working hard:2gether

Onward and forward

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Originally Posted by joejoe1
Way, Like Steve has mentioned, I have posted there on every update have made for a couple years now. But the only response I get is from Steve. I would love to have other opinions on some of the things I go thru. I think piecing never stops and my wife and I have been working on our new Marriage sine Oct 2017. It's been a lot of up and downs.
There are so few people in piecing that remain active around here when we started to move in that direction I really, really struggled to find content that made any sense of what was going on in my heart, head and gut. I struggle(d) with triggering things, and little tiffs occasionally put me in tears, sometimes even to the point of ugly crying because I often can't get past feeling like he's counting points for or against me because he was doing it for so long, long before the A and still after the A was done and over. But I rarely posted about that stuff for exactly the reason you stated next.
Originally Posted by joejoe1
And It's hard to post those events in the "newcomers" thread, because I don't want to make my problem bigger than the crisis some of the DBer's in the newcomer thread is going thru.
I also feel like I don't want to negate some one in crisis. Those feelings are so big and so all consuming. It's much more important to focus on them knowing they can survive this than some one virtually patting my hand when I'm struggling in something some newbies so badly crave.
Originally Posted by joejoe1
But I spent almost two years being hyper vigilant trying to make sure she didn't hurt me like she did before. And I'm pretty sure, I would of been that way, if we didn't reconcile and I ended up in a new relationship at the same time my wife and I Reconned. I wasn't no where near healed and neither was my wife when we Reconned, and we still have flare ups here and there.
This right here is why we need a more active piecing board. Blu said something very, very similar on another poster's thread. That DBing in the sense of self improvement doesn't ever stop, because recon or not you will drag the same crappy habits into the next relationship, you will drag that emotional baggage of an A with you, you will take all that FOO trauma or terrible coping mechanisms with you. The boiler plate that some people are so against is the only thing keeping you moving forward, growing and healing.

Originally Posted by joejoe1
I just don't like the comments, that make it seems like we are somehow different because we reconned, it comes off as divisive and creates and divisions in the posters.
I honestly left that comment alone because I got kind of heated out of the gate reading it. And me typing when heated isn't a good thing. There's a reason there are multiple posters on the board. Perspective. Perspective is what gives a person the ability to see all sides and all avenues going forward. Without it it's bulldozing through life. And in this case it's bulldozing through a complex and difficult situation in which you shouldn't let your emotions drive. I've never seen a single reconned person say anything that wasn't empathetic to a person facing a D. Not once. Nor have I ever saw them encourage a person to remain married for any reason other than the LBS saying that's what they want. The concept that those of us trudging along in piecing are some how standing on a pedestal and looking down is either a projection or a misinterpretation of what is happening here.

All good thoughts on things JJ. I'll start posting in the piecing forum, and will kind of do what Steve and Blu do occasionally posting updates in the newbie section so they can get to my older threads.

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@May, nice to hear from you. Miss you! I hope you will return and join the Piecing Board. (:

Definitely, "Surviving the D" and "Midlife Crisis" are active sub-forums and those of us on them often keep an eye out and reply to posts outside of "Newcomers". Many here miss you and I think would tune in if they knew where to look, including the few who reconciled long-term after EAs or PAs.



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Originally Posted by joejoe1
Reading Only comments to me, makes me realize that there's a vast misunderstanding on what DBing is all about. I don't think any newcomer knows if their Spouse is coming back, we just do the work on ourselves to save ourselves, no matter the outcome. Even if our WS comes back the work we need to do on ourselves stays the same. Even after my wife and I decided to work on our M, we still struggled. I wanted to walk out on many occasions. Feeling like, I can't trust this person, it's so horrible living with a person, that you believe you can't trust. None of her actions were leading me to believe she was doing anything wrong, But I spent almost two years being hyper vigilant trying to make sure she didn't hurt me like she did before. And I'm pretty sure, I would of been that way, if we didn't reconcile and I ended up in a new relationship at the same time my wife and I Reconned. I wasn't no where near healed and neither was my wife when we Reconned, and we still have flare ups here and there.

I just don't like the comments, that make it seems like we are somehow different because we reconned, it comes off as divisive and creates and divisions in the posters.


I think you may have misunderstood my original comment JJ. I never suggested we were different, I said that those that think the board has become negative seem to be those who have R'd. I think that this is an accurate statement, but happy to be proven wrong. In no way was I trying to create division, what I would really like is for all perspectives to stay on this board so that it can continue to help those who find themselves in this awful situation that we have all shared.

What I don't like is those that complain about the boards being negative yet do nothing to change the tone. I have always been taught that if you don't like something you change it, or you don't complain. Whoever the negative posters may be, they are they ones giving up their time to help the newcomers, so I find it unfair that they are criticised.

JJ, I assure you that I understand the DBing is about focusing on myself, if you go read my thread you will see my progression. I read yours and I could see your changes as you progressed, I respect your journey. Again I wish you and your R all the best. Please keep posting.


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BD & OM Jun 2020
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Originally Posted by wayfarer
I honestly left that comment alone because I got kind of heated out of the gate reading it. And me typing when heated isn't a good thing. There's a reason there are multiple posters on the board. Perspective. Perspective is what gives a person the ability to see all sides and all avenues going forward. Without it it's bulldozing through life. And in this case it's bulldozing through a complex and difficult situation in which you shouldn't let your emotions drive. I've never seen a single reconned person say anything that wasn't empathetic to a person facing a D. Not once. Nor have I ever saw them encourage a person to remain married for any reason other than the LBS saying that's what they want. The concept that those of us trudging along in piecing are some how standing on a pedestal and looking down is either a projection or a misinterpretation of what is happening here.


WF, I am sorry if my comment made you feel this way, it was not my intention. You are a poster who takes the time to be active on here, which I greatly respect, as is your perspective.


Me: 39 W:41
T: 14 M: 11
S: 5

BD & OM Jun 2020
W moves out Aug 2020

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I can't believe I'm letting myself get dragged into a conversation with LH, but:

Originally Posted by LH19
My response to that was " in what world is that progress".

Alison had posted about a very difficult situation and behaviors from her H that she'd been struggling with for a long time. The progress she noted was not in/re those behaviors with her husband, but the fact that his relationship with their eldest child was much, much improved. This was LH's response:

Originally Posted by LH19
WTF you women on here driving me fuching nuts. In what world do live in when the most important person in your life other then you kids verbally assaults until youíre in tears and it is viewed as progress????????

She never returned. You can make excuses and absolve yourself of responsibility all you want, but the fact is that a woman came here for support and advice, and after you posted this she never came back. And, she'd been a very regular poster on her own thread for a long time and helped many of us here as well. She was the absolute best at explaining boundaries and for any newbies out there, I strongly recommend reading her posts on my thread regarding boundaries (especially last summer) if you need help in this area. (I suspect LH crossed a boundary with her and she decided there was no reason to subject herself to this BS anymore.)

Note-- I'm not turning this into a debate (no need to say anything, LH, as I won't respond) and I apologize to Blu for even typing this. I just feel so strongly that the negative tone and bullying is actually damaging and driving people in need away, not just slowing down the board.

OB-- since I think you're talking about me dropping off, I will tell you that I was a regular poster for a lot of months and tried my very best to fight against the negativity by being positive and trying to offer- when I thought it made sense-- an alternative perspective. I think what JJ is talking about is that anytime posters recommend anything BUT kicking your LBS to the curb and maybe they'll come back after many years, or if your WS is waffling tell them to commit NOW or GTFO, we are put down. In my case, my educational background was thrown in my face and my spouse (and choice to stay with him) ridiculed. And on top of it I was gaslit, being accused of trying to control what others are posting when I was very careful and clear to state that we simply weren't all on the same page on advice and there were alternative perspectives that deserved to be heard. I don't understand why there is such venom and anger towards advising patience and being open to the potential of positive growth within your spouse and your R. And it wasn't just that final straw-- it had been happening at one level or another pretty much anytime I posted anything that didn't adhere to the current standard of "move on".

The posters that preach D here are creating their own echo chamber, maybe to reinforce their own choices and to reassure themselves that theirs is the only way. And if you're looking for an example of a poster who didn't R but is saying that the board has turned negative, AnotherStander (an incredible vet who has helped probably thousands of LBSs, including me) said it himself a few posts above.

What all of us in piecing are sharing is that we are still struggling with various things. For me, I'm struggling enough with trust that being ridiculed for taking my H back, or having my advice to a poster to give a situation some time rather than kicking their waffling S out immediately being derided as only delaying the inevitable... it isn't good for my own healing or mental health to get those kind of attacks. I'd like to stay engaged and help people the way that others have helped me. But I really needed a break. If I do come back more regularly, I simply won't engage with the bullies anymore. And it does sound like getting the piecing board moving could help those of us in piecing connect and not cloud the issues for newbies.

IMHO, another lens on what JJ is saying--advice given to you may not have been any different that advice given to him, because DB-ing isn't about your spouse. It is all about you! You have zero control over your WS's actions. You do have control over your own. You can focus on yourself, practice 180s, and drop the rope no matter what your WS is doing-- off in fantasyland with AP or sharing your home. Different paths have different complications, and different people have different abilities to handle the difficulties of each scenario, so you'll see suggestions based on helping each LBS figure out FOR THEMSELVES what their own values and boundaries are, and come to their own decision of how they want to proceed. It might mean moving out and filing for divorce. It might mean waiting for some length of time while GALing and working on yourself. I'm glad you're growing-- that's great. Whether our spouses come back or not, DB-ing is for you.

CW-- so great to hear from you. I'll say hello over on your thread. smile


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
9/20-present R attempt #2
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Originally Posted by may22
OB-- since I think you're talking about me dropping off


I didn't have you in mind necessarily but appreciate you responding.

Originally Posted by may22
I will tell you that I was a regular poster for a lot of months and tried my very best to fight against the negativity by being positive and trying to offer- when I thought it made sense-- an alternative perspective. I think what JJ is talking about is that anytime posters recommend anything BUT kicking your LBS to the curb and maybe they'll come back after many years, or if your WS is waffling tell them to commit NOW or GTFO, we are put down. In my case, my educational background was thrown in my face and my spouse (and choice to stay with him) ridiculed. And on top of it I was gaslit, being accused of trying to control what others are posting when I was very careful and clear to state that we simply weren't all on the same page on advice and there were alternative perspectives that deserved to be heard. I don't understand why there is such venom and anger towards advising patience and being open to the potential of positive growth within your spouse and your R. And it wasn't just that final straw-- it had been happening at one level or another pretty much anytime I posted anything that didn't adhere to the current standard of "move on".


It sounds like you have felt pretty attacked and unfairly treated, I am sorry that you have felt that.

Originally Posted by may22
And if you're looking for an example of a poster who didn't R but is saying that the board has turned negative, AnotherStander (an incredible vet who has helped probably thousands of LBSs, including me) said it himself a few posts above.


Yep fair point, I stand corrected (no pun intended).

Originally Posted by may22
advice given to you may not have been any different that advice given to him, because DB-ing isn't about your spouse. It is all about you! You have zero control over your WS's actions. You do have control over your own. You can focus on yourself, practice 180s, and drop the rope no matter what your WS is doing-- off in fantasyland with AP or sharing your home. Different paths have different complications, and different people have different abilities to handle the difficulties of each scenario, so you'll see suggestions based on helping each LBS figure out FOR THEMSELVES what their own values and boundaries are, and come to their own decision of how they want to proceed. It might mean moving out and filing for divorce. It might mean waiting for some length of time while GALing and working on yourself. I'm glad you're growing-- that's great. Whether our spouses come back or not, DB-ing is for you


Couldn't agree more. Feel free to read my thread and see the progress I made in truly understanding this.


Me: 39 W:41
T: 14 M: 11
S: 5

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Originally Posted by may22
I can't believe I'm letting myself get dragged into a conversation with LH, but:

Originally Posted by LH19
My response to that was " in what world is that progress".

Alison had posted about a very difficult situation and behaviors from her H that she'd been struggling with for a long time. The progress she noted was not in/re those behaviors with her husband, but the fact that his relationship with their eldest child was much, much improved. This was LH's response:

Originally Posted by LH19
WTF you women on here driving me fuching nuts. In what world do live in when the most important person in your life other then you kids verbally assaults until youíre in tears and it is viewed as progress????????

She never returned. You can make excuses and absolve yourself of responsibility all you want, but the fact is that a woman came here for support and advice, and after you posted this she never came back. And, she'd been a very regular poster on her own thread for a long time and helped many of us here as well. She was the absolute best at explaining boundaries and for any newbies out there, I strongly recommend reading her posts on my thread regarding boundaries (especially last summer) if you need help in this area. (I suspect LH crossed a boundary with her and she decided there was no reason to subject herself to this BS anymore.)

Note-- I'm not turning this into a debate (no need to say anything, LH, as I won't respond) and I apologize to Blu for even typing this. I just feel so strongly that the negative tone and bullying is actually damaging and driving people in need away, not just slowing down the board.

OB-- since I think you're talking about me dropping off, I will tell you that I was a regular poster for a lot of months and tried my very best to fight against the negativity by being positive and trying to offer- when I thought it made sense-- an alternative perspective. I think what JJ is talking about is that anytime posters recommend anything BUT kicking your LBS to the curb and maybe they'll come back after many years, or if your WS is waffling tell them to commit NOW or GTFO, we are put down. In my case, my educational background was thrown in my face and my spouse (and choice to stay with him) ridiculed. And on top of it I was gaslit, being accused of trying to control what others are posting when I was very careful and clear to state that we simply weren't all on the same page on advice and there were alternative perspectives that deserved to be heard. I don't understand why there is such venom and anger towards advising patience and being open to the potential of positive growth within your spouse and your R. And it wasn't just that final straw-- it had been happening at one level or another pretty much anytime I posted anything that didn't adhere to the current standard of "move on".

The posters that preach D here are creating their own echo chamber, maybe to reinforce their own choices and to reassure themselves that theirs is the only way. And if you're looking for an example of a poster who didn't R but is saying that the board has turned negative, AnotherStander (an incredible vet who has helped probably thousands of LBSs, including me) said it himself a few posts above.

What all of us in piecing are sharing is that we are still struggling with various things. For me, I'm struggling enough with trust that being ridiculed for taking my H back, or having my advice to a poster to give a situation some time rather than kicking their waffling S out immediately being derided as only delaying the inevitable... it isn't good for my own healing or mental health to get those kind of attacks. I'd like to stay engaged and help people the way that others have helped me. But I really needed a break. If I do come back more regularly, I simply won't engage with the bullies anymore. And it does sound like getting the piecing board moving could help those of us in piecing connect and not cloud the issues for newbies.

IMHO, another lens on what JJ is saying--advice given to you may not have been any different that advice given to him, because DB-ing isn't about your spouse. It is all about you! You have zero control over your WS's actions. You do have control over your own. You can focus on yourself, practice 180s, and drop the rope no matter what your WS is doing-- off in fantasyland with AP or sharing your home. Different paths have different complications, and different people have different abilities to handle the difficulties of each scenario, so you'll see suggestions based on helping each LBS figure out FOR THEMSELVES what their own values and boundaries are, and come to their own decision of how they want to proceed. It might mean moving out and filing for divorce. It might mean waiting for some length of time while GALing and working on yourself. I'm glad you're growing-- that's great. Whether our spouses come back or not, DB-ing is for you.

CW-- so great to hear from you. I'll say hello over on your thread. smile


Wow May itís great to have you back. As I stated I posted out of emotion and should have handled it better. My father use to do that to my mother a lot so it strikes a cord with me. I will be cognizant of that in the future.


M:51 W:46
T:22 M:16
S:15 D:11

ďDon't chase people. Be yourself, do your own thing and work hard. The right people - the ones who really belong in your life - will come to you and stay.Ē- Will Smith
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May summed up my thoughts perfectly. Thanks May.

Only, I use to post regularly. I also use to keep up with and provide comments to a lot of threads. But over time, I started to relive my situation over and over again, when reading other's trauma. Reading certain situations over and over again, was having an impact on my healing. I had to step away. I also would provide a comment and have so much going on where I couldn't commit to the posters like I wanted to. So I decided, to take a step back from posting and reading each situation.

I have been here since 2017 and there were way more posters when I first got here and way more traffic, it was a constant different posters showing up everyday, and that trend continued until probably the beginning of 2019. I was involved in a lot of posters threads. To the point, I would go to bed dreaming about their situations. And wake up reading to read all the updates. It was addicting. Not healthy, IMO.

And my perspective about the tone on the forum now is based off of my experience with the forum when I first arrived here. It has nothing to do with my Recon. I don't understand that correlation at all. The Vets when I first got here had a very nurturing tone, that were still 2x4s. AS, 25, Sandi all had a way of giving great advice without advocating for making lasting decisions.

25 called me out for being a bad husband, and how my wife affair wasn't the only problem we had in our Marriage. She kept me grounded in the reality of where I stood in the devastation of my failed marriage. That took me out the mode of just blaming my wife and looking at myself for the man I was, the husband I was, and the father, friend, son, and brother I was. When I looked back, I wasn't a very good husband, father, friend, brother or son. I treated my wife like crap, before she decided to quit our Marriage. Before 25 start giving me advice, I put all the blame on my Wife and her affair. But that was not reality. My wife was fast steam ahead with her AP, telling me she loved him. I could of just went and got a lawyer and started D. Which I asked a few times here, and I went and talked to a few lawyers. But with the advice from AS (who was Divorced), 25 (who was Divorced), Chuck, Sandi and many others they kept me patient and focused on myself.

So, the notion that we should being staying around to fix the tone if we don't like it, I have contributed a lot, and I would love to contribute more, but this board/forum is about healthy healing and community IMO, and I just think it has went away from that. And, if I can't commit to a poster, I don't want to be jumping in and out of their situation providing advice that's short sighted. I have done that to a few posters, and when I went back and read my comments, I felt horrible.

Onward and forward


M:37 W:37
T:11 M:10
S17, S13, S10, S4
BD:06/28/17
OM confirmed 07/20/17
Recon the M 10/29/17
Working hard:2gether

Onward and forward

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Originally Posted by LH
. As I stated I posted out of emotion and should have handled it better. My father use to do that to my mother a lot so it strikes a cord with me. I will be cognizant of that in the future.

LH, you obviously donate a LOT of time attempting to help others here. Props for that. There's another thread just now on forgiveness. I know I have not forgiven my father, and hold out hope someday a Russian space station's toilet seat will fall to Earth and land on his head. Maybe that's an angle to consider to lessen triggers? Forgiveness, not negotiating with Russian Cosmonauts to make the above happen. wink



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Originally Posted by joejoe1
And my perspective about the tone on the forum now is based off of my experience with the forum when I first arrived here. It has nothing to do with my Recon. I don't understand that correlation at all. The Vets when I first got here had a very nurturing tone, that were still 2x4s. AS, 25, Sandi all had a way of giving great advice without advocating for making lasting decisions.


I discovered this digging and digging through old threads. And like a year ago when I started brining up how negative the tone is getting, how 2x4s are seeming like bricks dropped from a 15 story building, how there's far too much commenting about how a person, particularly LBH's, will be deemed as weak or beta if they are just patient or take their time making a big decision, how all WS/WAS are being framed as abusers/sociopaths/narcissists/horrible irredeemable people and that all LBS are saints that should just leave I was met with "well I don't think that's true."

I started lurking in early Dec 2019 and joined after that. I was literally one of the people who was told repeatedly to just kick my husband out even though I had stated repeatedly this isn't me being a doormat this is me keeping my step-daughter out of the fray and off the street. This is me taking my time to decide what I really want. That I couldn't legally. That push back was good for me. Getting me agitated brings up recessed thoughts and gut feelings. I function best fueled by anger. But I watched a lot of newbies get torn to pieces trying to just right the ship and maintain some balance in the sh!tstorm of their life with the exact same kind of pushing.

Originally Posted by joejoe1
25 called me out for being a bad husband, and how my wife affair wasn't the only problem we had in our Marriage. She kept me grounded in the reality of where I stood in the devastation of my failed marriage. That took me out the mode of just blaming my wife and looking at myself for the man I was, the husband I was, and the father, friend, son, and brother I was. When I looked back, I wasn't a very good husband, father, friend, brother or son. I treated my wife like crap, before she decided to quit our Marriage. Before 25 start giving me advice, I put all the blame on my Wife and her affair. But that was not reality. My wife was fast steam ahead with her AP, telling me she loved him. I could of just went and got a lawyer and started D. Which I asked a few times here, and I went and talked to a few lawyers. But with the advice from AS (who was Divorced), 25 (who was Divorced), Chuck, Sandi and many others they kept me patient and focused on myself.
This is my other qualm about the negative tone. I watched a lot of LBH's really crappy behavior go completely unchecked and then they'd be poured on with adulation when they would say or do not great things as long is it meant they stood their ground or took one more step closer to D. I can say that CW and SteveLW are excluded from that. They very often took LBHs to task when they behaved immaturely, passive aggressively or were manipulative. I would completely ignore LBH posts for huge chunks of time because the advice around these guys who very seriously need to get their control issues and aggressive, manipulative behaviors under control was frankly scary to me. My personal opinions on the gender politics around here are what they are. I get not everyone sees the world as I do, but if you prescribe to those notions that women and men attract mates in a gender specific way then you have to accept the converse of the same information. Which is men and women cheat for very different reasons. That theory says women cheat mostly because they are desperate for an emotional connection or to feel desired. Typically because they've been emotionally bankrupted by their husbands. Totally ignoring the fact that that man has responsibility in his MR falling apart just fuels a narrative that the WW or WAW and women are the problem. Not two people failed, maybe one more than the other, but they both failed in their MR and they both have work to do. I've gotten attacked for these opinions. Which is what ever I'm a big girl. But as a woman in the world who almost had to start dating again and having friends out in the world dating in their mid-late 30s putting more men in this world with a chip on their shoulder and zero accountability helps no one. Not the LBH. Not his immediate relations. And not the world at large. That is the opposite of healing, healthy and helpful.


Originally Posted by joejoe1
So, the notion that we should being staying around to fix the tone if we don't like it, I have contributed a lot, and I would love to contribute more, but this board/forum is about healthy healing and community IMO, and I just think it has went away from that.
This is exactly the fight I have with myself regularly. Do I stay to offer perspective with contrary opinions that align with my world view to support adjusting the tone and subject myself to personal attacks? In doing so I'm wasting time I could've spent on myself, my family or other posters because now I have to stand up for my self and defend my opinion. Or do I say thank you for what this place has done for me and walk away so I can feel happy, healthy and healed? No time lost. But no help offered.

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Originally Posted by wayfarer
I can say that CW and SteveLW are excluded from that. They very often took LBHs to task when they behaved immaturely, passive aggressively or were manipulative.


Unfortunately, I can recognize that in other LBHs because I was that guy. frown

I am 76.333% better on that front these days. I still work at it, daily and check myself. It is a work in progress.


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Don't sell yourself short, SteveLW. You're 85.333% better. As for the new posters, I do think that new posters would benefit from hearing the perspectives of both genders, particularly for those who have a better chance to turn things around. I certainly agree with many of the things wayfarer wrote.

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May, I donít think anyone here ďpreachesĒ divorce.

There are situations that are toxic and very unhealthy which can be damaging to the LBS and the kids, and in that situation, I think thatís where divorce is, as you say ďpreachedĒ

Everyone came here to fix a marriage. Some people did so much self work that found their marriages were only going to be detrimental to them if the WAS didnít work on themselves. Some people had very strong boundaries. And others had very weak ones. And those who had weak boundaries might have been more tolerating of poor behavior because of fear.

And I know from the beginning of time here, as long as it isnít an abusive, toxic situation and there are strong boundaries and BOTH parties are committed to the piecing of the marriage, NO ONE preaches divorce .

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Originally Posted by Ginger1
May, I donít think anyone here ďpreachesĒ divorce.

There are situations that are toxic and very unhealthy which can be damaging to the LBS and the kids, and in that situation, I think thatís where divorce is, as you say ďpreachedĒ

Everyone came here to fix a marriage. Some people did so much self work that found their marriages were only going to be detrimental to them if the WAS didnít work on themselves. Some people had very strong boundaries. And others had very weak ones. And those who had weak boundaries might have been more tolerating of poor behavior because of fear.

And I know from the beginning of time here, as long as it isnít an abusive, toxic situation and there are strong boundaries and BOTH parties are committed to the piecing of the marriage, NO ONE preaches divorce .


Ginger explained this well. I have seen people give advice to stand up for themselves and stop being pushed around but I don't think I recall people preaching D. I have seen people push others to get out of limbo and move forward. These are probably areas where posters can be more cautious or understanding because even though their intentions are good a push out of limbo can indirectly be a push towards D.

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Originally Posted by may22
What all of us in piecing are sharing is that we are still struggling with various things. For me, I'm struggling enough with trust that being ridiculed for taking my H back, or having my advice to a poster to give a situation some time rather than kicking their waffling S out immediately being derided as only delaying the inevitable... it isn't good for my own healing or mental health to get those kind of attacks. I'd like to stay engaged and help people the way that others have helped me. But I really needed a break. If I do come back more regularly, I simply won't engage with the bullies anymore. And it does sound like getting the piecing board moving could help those of us in piecing connect and not cloud the issues for newbies.


To everyone who has posted here on blu's thread in recent days, and as May indicates above:

I think many of us would love for you to come back and share your advice and your experiences with the rest of us.

Yes, there will always be people who don't mean well, or who have gone through too much pain and trauma that causes them to completely misinterpret and hurt other people. They must indeed either be corrected, or simply ignored so that they can learn from their mistakes and heal.

But please think about all the other people who appreciate your help and insight.

Trust me, there's a lot more of them.

So, when you're ready, just go for it, we'll be incredibly grateful to you all! xxx


Me (43) H (42)
M:14 T:18, S17, S14 & S14
4/19 BD1 ILYB & OW1 til 2/20
8/20 Moves abroad for work
12/20 Possible new OW2, denies but wants divorce(no action)
09/21 Proof of OW2
10/21 D in progress (Me)
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Originally Posted by wayfarer
They very often took LBHs to task when they behaved immaturely, passive aggressively or were manipulative. I would completely ignore LBH posts for huge chunks of time because the advice around these guys who very seriously need to get their control issues and aggressive, manipulative behaviors under control was frankly scary to me. My personal opinions on the gender politics around here are what they are. I get not everyone sees the world as I do, but if you prescribe to those notions that women and men attract mates in a gender specific way then you have to accept the converse of the same information. Which is men and women cheat for very different reasons. That theory says women cheat mostly because they are desperate for an emotional connection or to feel desired. Typically because they've been emotionally bankrupted by their husbands. Totally ignoring the fact that that man has responsibility in his MR falling apart just fuels a narrative that the WW or WAW and women are the problem. Not two people failed, maybe one more than the other, but they both failed in their MR and they both have work to do. I've gotten attacked for these opinions. Which is what ever I'm a big girl. But as a woman in the world who almost had to start dating again and having friends out in the world dating in their mid-late 30s putting more men in this world with a chip on their shoulder and zero accountability helps no one. Not the LBH. Not his immediate relations. And not the world at large. That is the opposite of healing, healthy and helpful.


I'll be honest WF, for a while after BD I demonised and villainised by STBXW as a terrible and irredeemable person. Having done a lot of work I realise that this is not the case. Sure, she made some terrible and hurtful decisions (which no one deserves to have happen to them), but she did these things because I was, at times, a pretty ordinary H. Do I excuse her behaviours, absolutely not. But had a put more effort and time into our M, perhaps those nasty and horrible things would not have happened. I was never abusive or any of those things (unless we count silent treatment, stonewalling, that I am guilty of) but like I said, I definitely could be a sh!tty H at times. The best way to describe myself and probably a lot of LBHs here is the series of Sh!tty Husband blogs on the Must Be This Tall to Ride blog.

In a way the last 12 months are a blessing because nothing else would have rocked me hard enough to bring about the necessary changes in me that will make my life and any future R infinitely better. For this I am grateful. Thanks for this post WF, it has reminded me not to lose sight of not only where where I am but to never forget the part that I played in all of this.


Me: 39 W:41
T: 14 M: 11
S: 5

BD & OM Jun 2020
W moves out Aug 2020

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Hi everyone,

Thank you for weighing in. It's a lot to process at the moment. I have things to say, but I also don't have energy for fruitless arguing or negativity. There is no excuse for that as this is a site designed for support! It is not any social media. I am only posting because there are some awesome people here that I like and respect and I hope to keep in contact with them in some way. I will think more on what I can add and be back. I'll update my sitch more at some point in the future as well.

I am in a really good place in my life right now. I have no space for drama. We have been taking some wonderful family vacations. I am in good health. My kids are doing well. My marrriage is in a good place. I adore my friends and have been catching up with old friends too. .... Unfortunately, COVID cases are ramping up again thanks to all you anti-vaxers, and it is incredibly stressful and busy at work now. Every day we see more cases, people sick and dying, and our hospital is overhwhelmed again. This was completely avoidable if more people would vaccinate and not allow the virus/variants to continue spreading and mutating. We have some folks dying right now that simply should not be. It is hard not to feel resentful towards ignorate people and communites (in the US specifally). I try to be positive, to take good care of myself and my own health and safety, and try not to let it get me down. Some days work just takes it all out of me. Wonderful nurses are resigning every week and therefore the rest of us shoulder that heavier burden as well.

I'll be back around. I am not going anywhere quite yet. I do appreciate those of you that continue to comment to me, support me and tell me you get something out of my posts. For those of you that are defensive, I would just ask that you please not bring that to my thread and to put your comments elsewhere. I am honestly not interested in reading that. I hope those that have left because of it, and maybe check here one day, will please drop me a line and say hello. I miss you guys. Allison, if you read this, I miss you and I am here for you, sister!

Thank you,
Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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I read an articleóokay, a third of an articleóabout a nurse in Arkansas (~35% vax rate) struggling with the rising hospitalizations. She says she goes to work and sees people dying to COVID, then comes home to friends on Facebook saying itís a hoax, and in the grocery store someone blamed her for their family memberís death, claiming she was giving poor care to bump up the death rate. Those extreme views donít represent most anti-COVID-vaxírs, of course, but it seems like a challenging time to be a medical professional if you work with those patients. Props and thank you for your service!



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(((Blu)))

What a mess this world is. I'm so sorry you are having to bear the brunt of all that ignorance and selfishness. I am counting the days until they approve the vaccine for children so at least they can be protected. The worst part is that so many of the anti-vaxxers also refuse to wear masks-- it boggles the mind that some folks won't do this one simple thing to protect those around them who can't get the vaccine, even if they don't want to get one themselves. Thank you for your work-- you are truly making a difference and your community is incredibly fortunate to have you on the front lines.

Other than that, I'm glad you're doing well. I am too. I leave tonight to join my family for two of the four-week camper van/National Park trip that had been planned for last year and postponed. With my new job, I couldn't take the full trip, but I'm swinging in for the good parts and will meet them again at the end at my parents' house for a long weekend. I've had this past week on my own which has been heavenly... cleaned the cr@p out of the house and decluttered a ton of stuff from the girls' rooms, ate healthy, slept 8 hours a night, felt no guilt for staying late at work, saw friends for dinner, binged the end of season 3 of the Handmaid's Tale. My older daughter made me a scavenger hunt with sweet notes to find every morning so I wouldn't be lonely. Kids and H are having a ball, seeing tons of wildlife. It's all good.

Thank you for dropping in to let us know how you're doing. Think of you often.

xoxo May


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
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I will never understand how people from other states interpreted "Stay at home" to mean "Vacation in Colorado".

Originally Posted by BluWave
Unfortunately, COVID cases are ramping up again thanks to all you anti-vaxers, and it is incredibly stressful and busy at work now. Every day we see more cases, people sick and dying, and our hospital is overhwhelmed again. This was completely avoidable if more people would vaccinate and not allow the virus/variants to continue spreading and mutating.
Thank you all you have done and for sharing your first hand accounts of your experience. It is people like you that I trust for my information and helps clarify what the truth is vs all the propaganda.

Have you looked at the virus under a microscope?



"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
I will never understand how people from other states interpreted "Stay at home" to mean "Vacation in Colorado".

Don't worry, I'm staying out of your state. We're vaccinated, camping outdoors, and wearing masks whenever we are around other people, indoors or out. Obviously riskier than staying at home and took a lot of discussion to decide we were okay with it.

But I feel your pain. My state is overrun with tourists right now too.


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
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Hi friends,

As you can see I am avoiding the individual messages regarding board usage and conflict :-) I don't feel like it. Not worth the mental energy and I don't have a solution to the problem. We each need to be responsible for how we conduct ourselves and treat others, IRL and online. I do not believe that because this is an online forum, or even considered social media, that makes it okay to be rude. It is never okay to be rude. Spend a few moments to think clearly how you can be helpful and kind before you speak or type -- to your partner, children, a person in the grocery store, or a stranger online. That is being a good human. I hope that happens so that more people will feel safe to post and share here.

I will continue to update. I know when I started reading here 7 plus years ago, I followed several posters and found it helpful and comforting. Perhaps when it is time to start a new thread, I will move this over to piecing. Also, I love it when my friends drop in here and say hello and update me! Keeping doing that, please!

So my H and I have been back together for 6.5 years. We started dating pretty seriously over 20 years ago. Just wow. I still feel young. It is funny how different we were back then but also in some ways the same. You guys know what I mean. There are certain characteristics to our personalities that don't change over time. Our life experiences and the way we approach others is constantly evolving. It is funny to think about the way I saw my H when I met him. I had him on a pedestal and saw what I wanted to see. What I didn't like I somehow thought he should change or improve upon. Now I think I see him more clearly. I think it's better that I accept his flaws and understand him than work on helping him to be a better person. I hope that makes sense.

In general life is going well for me. Work is hard but I accept that. Having had two vacations this summer was great. I have gotten better at self care this year than ever before so I feel more healthy and balanced, physically and mentally. GAL and self care were these concepts that I understood logically but could not seem to embrace and practice on any continual basis. Something just clicked for me. I feel good. Also, my children are getting older and more independent. It is really hard to get alone time with kids under 10 and esp under 5. My youngest is now 11 and in middle school; such an awesome kid with so many talents. My middle girl is applying to colleges this fall so I am excited to support her on that adventure. She is such a big brain and mature, balanced person, and I know she will do amazing things in this life. My oldest is living with several housemates, working and going to school, committed to therapy, and I am so proud of her.

Friends, drop in and say hello right here. I love your updates and hearing from you. To all the people out there reading and not posting, I hope you can take something away from my story. You can read all of my threads that are listed on the first post of this thread. Just remember one thing: this is only one difficult moment in your long, complicated and beautiful life. It will not feel like this forever. That I know 100%

Blu

Last edited by BluWave; 08/28/21 06:37 PM.

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Hey Blu,

Been away for a long time and I just decided to pop in and give an update. Looking forward to reading your thread and see how you doing.


No one is coming to save you!

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Hey Blue,

Just wanted to let you know I read your update and am glad life's going (mostly) well. (:



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Hi Blu,

So good to hear from you and glad things are going so well. I had a question for you-- I think I recall that your H had some pretty major nice-guy tendencies and working through that was a big thing for him and for your M-- do I recall that correctly? Is that not an issue at all anymore or still something you guys need to talk about and keep an eye on?

I'm doing well. We had an incredible trip (and I had a couple of weeks on my own at home, as I couldn't take off enough time for the whole trip with my new job, which was also quite lovely and relaxing). I flew to meet H and the kids in my hometown for the end of the trip, which coincided with my parents' 50th anniversary and I saw my brothers and parents for the first time in person since this whole pandemic started. My H ended up having to fly to his hometown to help out his parents as his mom had to have emergency surgery and his dad wasn't going to be capable of caring for her on his own when she came back from the hospital. Girls and I flew home and we're all back and school and work. H comes back this week.

I am less angry though it does still crop up some. When we were on the trip, something that DnJ talks about-- relying on your beliefs-- finally made sense to me. I'd been turning it over and over and hadn't really been able to figure it out in practice, though it made sense philosophically. All of a sudden it hit me-- what do I believe in? I believe in love, in the ability of people to change and grow, and in forgiveness. But I wasn't really living that out in my R with my H-- I had been still holding onto anger, diving back into it almost as a weird safety blanket when I started to feel too comfortable. Like my anger hadn't been fully assuaged and so I needed to check back in there so it wouldn't go away until I was ready. When I made that shift to realize that wasn't who I was at heart, or at least who I wanted to be, and it suddenly all felt so much better. Like I could finally take him at face value when he says ILY or I'm so happy we're doing this and be happy back, not having that suspicious troll in the back of my head say REALLY??? Anyway, we still have a long ways to go, I think, but that did feel like a pretty major shift for me. It hasn't been totally consistent, but I do feel like I'm moving forward.

I love my job, it is the most fulfilling thing I've ever done. Both girls are amazing. I'm starting to have these little pangs of this won't last forever, they won't always want to hold my hand and slip into my bed to snuggle in the mornings and call me Mommy... so trying to just squeeze every drop out of every moment with them.

I might start a new thread over on piecing and stop hijacking yours smile We will see.

Thanks for checking in here. Your endless compassion and wisdom just shine through in every post you write. I will always be incredibly grateful to you for how you helped me through such difficult times here-- I really don't know what I would have done without you.

xx May


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
9/20-present R attempt #2
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All of this is so great Blu and May.

Blu I'm so happy you are taking the time for you during this mess. You deserve it. Lord knows you deserve it after what your life has been at work the last year and a half and god only knows for how much longer. I hope that some of this sticks for you even when things calm down which fingers crossed will be sooner than later for you. And isn't it freeing when those kids can feed themselves and not destroy the house. It's like a whole new lease on life. It's great hearing from you. You should think about coming over to piecing as well.

May, oh my heart is swelling reading this!! You looked the wolf in the eye and asked her to sit back. I'm so proud of you. It isn't easy. And that anger will continue to pop up occasionally, but taking a beat, sitting in it for minute, and asking yourself why you feel like that and investigating that instead of reacting makes it a whole different emotion, and a whole different experience. I swear. Glad to hear about the job, the trip, and girls. And come on over to piecing. It's been quiet. We could used some activity. I need to post over there too.

xoxo

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It¬īs a great update Blu.

When I read your posts, I feel it¬īs my wife writing them.

I¬īm glad you are walking the family road. We are there too.


Thank you.


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Don't you hate it when you write up your replies and then your computer crashes and you lose them? Grrhhh! So I will do another more rushed version.

Maika -- So glad you commented. I wrote on your thread.

CW -- Thank you. If I have not already told you, I appreciate you and your contributions to the board.

May -- I am glad you are still visiting here and updating. I am disappointed in what was happening and that we lost people here. I hope they are still reading here and will consider coming back. ... If you are reading this and left because of conflict, please at least drop us a line here. We miss you!

So my H was so much of a Nice Guy that when he read that book, No More Mr Nice Guy, it felt as if it was written for him. He read it after he returned to our M and it was extremely eye opening. He has had to work on all of that and I do feel it has gotten better. He has always been very kind, warm, flexible and accommodating, especially with the women in his life. Honestly, with everyone, men, family, friends, coworkers, etc. He also is conflict avoidant and not good at speaking up for himself or expressing his opinions. I imagined growing up with such an overbearing and strict Catholic mother, at times he felt he wasn't allowed an opinion. There was a lot of guilt and shame too. But that is another post for another day.

I think today we have a better understanding of toxic masculinity than when we were kids. I think I lost some respect for him in our M and at times was easily frustrated by him or saw him as a doormat. In turn, I think he grew to resent me and saw me as controlling and a nag. And round and round we spun.

I would say that most of this is much better now. However, there are certain characteristics that are just who he is that are not necessarily a bad thing. He is very nice, warm and understanding with people. It is why I was attracted to him initially. Also, he generally is more flexible and easy going than I am. I tend to have more ideas and opinions about things. We can balance each other well as long as there is mutual respect and good communication. So there are still issues and conflicts of course, but the unhealthy dynamic is much improved. ... Is any of this relatable? I did not get the sense your H was like this. I have seen other posts where men talk about Nice Guy Syndrome, and I think the term has been overgeneralized.

When it comes to anger, you have really helped me think about my own issues. I realize that I encouraged you to hold on to anger and that in part I was projecting my own. Anger is complicated and deeply personal. I am glad you are working through it. Taking what people say at face value when there has been trauma is a challenge, but also an important practice. Your sitch is still new and raw. You will get there. ... Can you share what DNJ posted about beliefs?

I am glad things are going well overall. And please do hijack my thread! I want to keep it going but I don't always have much to share. I wouldn't say that I am actively piecing or working on my marriage. Some days we do I guess, but most days we don't, and we just live our own lives. Some days in harmony and other days more independently in close proximity. I prefer it this way. We can have many intimate relationships in life, not just the one partner.

Wayfarer -- Thank you. I am so glad you are here too. Your support and posts are wonderful. And I am glad you are still willing to share your journey. Perhaps when this thread reaches 100, I will start the next one in the Piecing area and then link these.

Neffer -- I would love to meet your lovely W. She sounds amazing. LOL.

Blu


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Hi Blu,

This is all such great stuff. thank you for continuing to share.

In/re the NMMNG stuff-- you're right in that this is not something that fits my H. However, I was more remembering that the book had resonated with your H as being part of the unhealthy dynamic prior to the affair (and possibly a factor that led to it?) I recalled him making some big changes that helped him (and you) a lot, and I was curious to know if he had stuck with those changes or if he'd slipped back into old patterns. I'd also be curious to know more about how you two have improved your communication. Have you simply developed healthier/more open channels of communication, or are you (either or both) intentional about it? I also remember a year or more ago, you had some frustrations regarding date nights (am I remembering that correctly?) Is that better? Or just not an issue right now with covid and all the rest? It seems like covid has brought you guys closer generally.

Regarding the anger.... I'm glad you pushed me there, you and others. I needed it. It was buried and I was honestly afraid to access it because it would consume me. (A moment of wistfulness for AlisonUK, who helped me so much in walking that path of understanding and experiencing my anger without letting it take over (most days wink. I wish she was still here.)

It's actually funny-- I was reading through my threads from last summer, because I was trying to figure out when it's actually been a year since we had our final come to Jesus moment. OMG. He was such a pathetic, sorry, sad sack of a man-- no wonder you guys were all so bewildered that I wanted to stay married to him. LOL. I think maybe some of my anger was also absent because this just wasn't HIM in front of me-- instead of the cruel alien H some people get, this was a wimpy, sorry excuse for a man and I both didn't really recognize my H in him but also it is kind of hard to be mad at someone who is so weak and lame, unable to make any real decisions on his own. It is helpful to go back and see how far we've come, and especially to see how different he is now than he was a year ago.

The last thing I think about anger is that I was so wholly focused on keeping a two parent household for my children that I simply couldn't afford to be angry. I had to put every bit of energy into controlling my own emotions, trying to DB, and trying to be the best mom I could be to them. It wasn't until I started to feel a bit more safe, I think, and realize that the danger (as I perceived it at the time) to my children was no longer so immediate, that I was able to relax a bit and let myself feel angry over what my H did to me and almost did to my kids.

DnJ-- he's really incredible. I'll paste a couple of posts below. This first one is from Sage's thread on MLC:

Originally Posted by DnJ
Indeed your primal nature, your beliefs, are core to you - and are slow to change. It that slow changing nature that makes these tenets such good heading to follow. Emotions can change, and do change, quickly. Following those is the bane of our crisis spouses; don't want to go down that kind of a road.

So where do I go from here?

Get in your intellectual car, and consider, think, about your values, your beliefs, your nature. Reflect upon them. Strengthen those that you like, are honourable, serve you, and feed your soul. Alter or discard those beliefs that run counter to the view you want.

Look to others you admire, respect, and would like to emulate. Consider their beliefs and how those deep values have shaped them and lead them to their life. Consider if that is a role model you would like to follow.

Take your time with this process, this is some deep soul digging. It takes consistent effort to alter those deep held values within you. Now, I suspect most of your values will be strengthened, few will require altering, and very few will require discarding. However, the codependent beliefs are ones that do need to get tossed out.

This is along those lines of we teach ourselves how to teach others how to treat us.


The mechanics for crafting, altering, and strengthening a belief:

There are four 'cars' or paths or facets of your life - physical, intellectual, emotional, spiritual. Of those, one can only directly control physical and intellectual. We can only influence emotional and spiritual, not directly control them.

All four paths influence each other. Our emotions can cause certain thoughts; when we get angry our thoughts turn to anger vindictive ideas. Our physical actions also cause certain feelings and thoughts and beliefs. Consider when we smile, a feeling of happiness comes from seemingly nowhere.

Do it. Smile right now. See how you suddenly feel better?

Now frown. A deep solid frown. Big bottom lip. Good. You probably also, without thought, dragged your eyebrows down and even growled a bit. And of course your feelings followed along.

Smile again. It feels better. smile

Feelings change quickly. And are easily influenced. I just had you run from happy to mad to happy within seconds.

Feelings are fleeting. They are real and temporary, unless they are reinforced.

The physical car: One can purposefully perform physical actions that promote good emotions and beliefs. For example, living a peaceful life. Close the cupboard door gently - every single time. Just enough force to have it close silently and almost elegantly. That single little action, such a minor behaviour, accumulates, spreads to other parts of your life, and has a huge impact.

The intellectual car: Intellect is where you will produce the most gains. This is the wheelhouse of influence. Even your physical behaviours start here. This is the stronghold of mental assertiveness and rational thought. Thoughts influence everything.

We can directly control our intellectual self. This control produces thoughts and actions which influence our emotions and beliefs. This is the kernel of wisdom that allows one to strengthen, alter, or discard their beliefs.

The emotional car: Emotions are born with our subconscious. They are irrational by nature. Emotions are easily influenced, and often without the realization of the influencing. Feelings and emotions are a large part of what makes up a healthy person. We are rational / irrational creatures. It is needed to spend some time within this car and examine our emotions. However, it is good practice to influence when we do this, for how long, and for which events.

With practice it gets to a point where it 'feels' like one can actually control their emotions. This control is actually true, the mechanism is not direct though; it is influence, and the accepting of that influence.

The spiritual car: Spirit, faith, belief, convictions, values - our core self. This is our deepest self. This binds everything else. Our spiritual path is influenced by everything we do, think, and feel; and influences everything we do, think, and feel.

Getting a handle on one's beliefs and values is a enlightening view. It is quite incredible to actually meet yourself for the first time. It takes a very traumatic experience to knock one out of their routine enough for them to examine who they are deep down.

An LBS has an incredible opportunity seldom afforded to others. And for those who avail themselves to this opportunity, do the inner work and craft themselves - They Become.

Do make the most of it. The benefits are so worth it. One does look back upon this time, these efforts, and the changes they make, as the blessings they are.

Currently your beliefs, emotions, thoughts, and behaviours are not in sync. Imagine when they are. Imagine when your four cars are travelling together side by side and not spread out along the path. Imagine what that will be like.

I spoke of mental assertiveness. This is intellect. This is us exercising our control. Mental assertiveness is sword and shield.

Keep you sword sharp and use it to cut through the projections, blame, and justifications. Cleave yourself from H and his path. Your sharp sword is your mightiest weapon and tool in your arsenal. Use it with compassion. Use it for detachment and to find indifference.

Keep your shield bright and polished. This is your mental defence against the onslaught of H and from within. Your shield is strong and broad. It protects you from H's rewritten narrative and your self-doubts and fears.

Mental assertiveness is your most powerful force at your direct control; and must be wielded with compassion. That caution is, like everything else, for you.

An example of the actual mechanics for strengthening and altering a belief.

Stop speak and thinking of H as a d!ckhead, and having d!ckish behaviour. Do not speak of H disparagingly anymore. This is not about H being deserving or not of those thought - it's about you.

Remember, craft and strengthen that which serves and feed your soul.

Disparaging thoughts and comments seem like they detach one. This is short lived. Those thoughts influence feelings. Disparaging turn to resentment. Resentment is attachment. One is firmly attached to that which they resent.

You want your detachment to live within your spiritual realm, to be part of that which you believe and influences everything within your life. To detach, one needs compassion.

Remember - counterintuitive.

Compassion, understanding, empathy, all leads towards forgiveness. Forgiveness is freeing.

When one is free from resentment, vengeance, retribution, grudges, judgemental thoughts, and so on, they are detached.

This is very counterintuitive and people usually strengthen beliefs that influence those traits of resentment, judgement, retribution, and so on. Forgiveness is something that seldom is ever found.

Looking within one's self and seeing those beliefs, and then doing something proactive to alter them, is such a good thing. A good for you thing!

Sage, I empathize for where you find yourself. The internal bargaining and attempting to hold on. (((Sage))) Believe me. Really - believe. It's ok to let go. It's ok.

Believe - compassion and kindness. Detachment and indifference. Compassionate indifference.

D

I read this so many times. It made sense to me. But I had a hard time putting it into actual practice, particularly around my beliefs and values. I did some work identifying my values (both at work and at home) and this also helped me with waiting out feelings/emotion.

But it wasn't until I read what he recently posted on BL's thread (https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2921516#Post2921516) that something finally clicked for me. I think it was the part about seeking justice, which is oh so tempting of a pit to fall into... and I suddenly realized, that isn't me. I'm not a bitter, angry person seeking vengeance. I believe in the ability of people to grow and change. I believe in forgiveness. And I need to actually practice these beliefs through my thoughts and behaviors, and let go of the idea of justice.

Life isn't fair. My H cheated on me. I am still dealing with the aftereffects of that betrayal. It rocked my whole world. But at some point I need to let go of my anger and my feeling that this was all so unfair and desire for H to crawl on his hands and knees begging for forgiveness if I want to be the kind of person I want to be, and live out my own values. Does that make sense? I'm still a big WIP on this. But it was a lightbulb moment for me.

xx M


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
9/20-present R attempt #2
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May,

I am so glad that you keep coming back and posting to me. I wish there was a way we could connect outside of the boards. Are you on IG? I think if I shared my handle and you messaged me, I could tell if it was actually you... I just wrote on Maika's thread in response to LH's post and it dawned on me as I was typing that these boards no longer offer a strong sense of community and I just can't see them fully recovering. If you had been here 7-8 years ago, you would have seen several posters like Sandi and there was so much support and rich information being shared. People really spent time getting to know one another and gave thorough and well written feedback. And people had boundaries, which for me is number one in life, esp as I have had to do so much self reflection and fix a broken marriage!

I think the beginning of Covid/quarantine in March 2020 did help our relationship. It shook us out of our daily routines of running around -- work, kids, sports, etc -- and we found ourselves at home and spending time together every day. In terms of him recovering from all the MNG stuff, well I would say yes, but only to an extent. There are just things about him that will never change. In fact we have been talking about that recently. I am not sure that is such a bad thing tho. There are also things about myself that I am realizing I still need to challenge myself to accept and improve on. Mostly in the way I communicate. It is much easier for me to write things out, proofread and then edit. When I am frustrated and having a disagreement I can easily lash out and let emotions take over.

I wish AlisonUK was still here also, but I completely understand why she left. My hunch is that another poster named KitCat won't return either. I am disappointed because I had been catching up on her threads and wanted to offer her some support and ideas as well. ... Anger is a tricky thing and I imagine different and deeply personal for us all. Some people learn to use it as a tool early on in life and some people are taught to bury it. I think gender plays a role in how we are modeled and taught to express or not express our anger.

Going back in time and rereading your old words is a good idea. I have done that too. I imagine your perspective on it will continue to change and evolve with each year that passes. Yes, he was weak, lame and a sorry sack. lol. Mine was too. Sadly for them they still have to carry that burden of shame and regret. But again with the boundaries, it is not our job to lighten their loads. We can say our piece and listen, but I don't think we can try and alter or change their relationship with their past. I can recognize now how much I lacked boundaries in that area after my H came back. I felt so burned and justified in my anger and he felt so guilty and deserving of it, that I often used it as a weapon against him. It didn't help anything and it just prolonged things. On the flip side, I needed that time. It took me years before I could really work on real trust/intimacy again.


I think I need to reread that post by DNJ several times. It's so poetic and metaphorical that I can't quite wrap my brain around it!

Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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Sadly for them they still have to carry that burden of shame and regret. But again with the boundaries, it is not our job to lighten their loads. We can say our piece and listen, but I don't think we can try and alter or change their relationship with their past. I can recognize now how much I lacked boundaries in that area after my H came back. I felt so burned and justified in my anger and he felt so guilty and deserving of it, that I often used it as a weapon against him. It didn't help anything and it just prolonged things. On the flip side, I needed that time. It took me years before I could really work on real trust/intimacy again.
This is so interesting. I remember that Alison also felt like she'd weaponized her H's guilt around his EA after they reconciled (though maybe less via anger and more via sadness). And Wayfarer talks about her first H bringing up her A for years, into every single conversation. I know my H thinks I do this also. (Since he doesn't suffer from NMMNG, he doesn't willingly swallow it, though-- he will to a point and then he says something.)

I think I need to continue to remind myself of boundaries and taking responsibility for my own healing. For instance, my H has said to me that I control my own thoughts/feelings (and I know DnJ would say the same) but I always tell him I can't control the triggers, these things come up and it is hard. But I have been trying this past week to take more ownership of my own mental space. I realized also the past month or so that it really doesn't feel painful to think of the A, most of the time. It comes up for me and I think I'm like poking that sore tooth with my tongue over and over to see if it still hurts... but it is far, far less painful (most of the time-- sometimes I still feel that rush of sadness and anger). It took me awhile to realize that the pain was really reduced though. I had to step back and reflect on my own feelings and really consider them before I realized I felt a lot better about all of it. So now I'm trying to get over this habit I seem to have acquired of really dwelling in thinking about the A when it comes up for me, by acknowledging it (and also acknowledging any feeling or lack thereof it brings with it) and then dismissing it and moving on to something more productive.

And... I would love to connect with you via IG. Yes, please. smile xx May


Me (45) H (41)
M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
2-5/20 R attempt #1
6/20 limbo again, back in contact with AP
9/20-present R attempt #2
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Something that helped me to think about, which is over simplified, but worked for my brain was to reflect on past events that were painful and how I felt about them as time passed. A few examples. When I was 5 my own parents divorced and it was rough. In middle school I was bullied and sexually harassed. In HS I was involved in a dramatic/emotionally abusive relationship. He also cheated. Each one of those things was painful and took years to recover from, but I did. And so when things with my H were incredibly difficult and triggering, I would remind myself that years down the road, it would look different as well. And now many years later I assure you it does. When I was at my lowest point in life, I would remind myself that everything will look different in the future, and it helped me get though a hard day or night. That small glimmer of hope worked.

The thing is May, and I know you know this, but you can‚Äôt control or rush that process. I think we might be similar in that we are hard working, effective and put a lot of energy into things. And it works! I have accomplished some things in my life ‚ÄĒ studying at a top university with young children and a full load of sciences courses ‚ÄĒ and look back at my drive now and think, whoa, I was unstoppable! However, when it comes to our personal relationships with others, we don‚Äôt have control. We only can control our own choices, reactions and behaviors. The time still must unfold in it‚Äôs slow and sometimes painful way. There is nothing we can ‚Äúdo‚ÄĚ other than accept that some days will be harder and feel slower than others. But maybe that is good for people like us? Just letting go a little ‚Ķ.

My handle is ktkara. I think I’m smart enough to filter through private messages and decipher who I know and who is some dirtbag trying to pick me up. Lol. I’ll try and delete the name in a couple days. And if the moderators do not approve and delete this, my apologies!

Blu


ďForgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.Ē Ė Nelson Mandela
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Originally Posted by BluWave
Something that helped me to think about, which is over simplified, but worked for my brain was to reflect on past events that were painful and how I felt about them as time passed....I would remind myself that years down the road, it would look different as well. And now many years later I assure you it does. When I was at my lowest point in life, I would remind myself that everything will look different in the future, and it helped me get though a hard day or night. That small glimmer of hope worked.
This is a great outlook. Thanks for sharing!


Me:39 Ex-W:36
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:2
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
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Something that helped me to think about, which is over simplified, but worked for my brain was to reflect on past events that were painful and how I felt about them as time passed....I would remind myself that years down the road, it would look different as well. And now many years later I assure you it does. When I was at my lowest point in life, I would remind myself that everything will look different in the future, and it helped me get though a hard day or night. That small glimmer of hope worked.

this reminds me of the Stockdale paradox, which I've been trying for a long time to keep in front of my mind, especially when I feel low.

The Stockdale paradox is named after Admiral James Stockdale who was a POW in the Vietnam war. He was asked about about prisoners who did not make it out of the POW camps and he said,

"The optimists. They were the ones who said we're going to be out by Christmas. And Christmas would come and Christmas would go. Then they'd say we're going to be out by Easter, and Easter would come and go. And they died of a broken heart."

I am totally not comparing being a POW to what this board is about, but just looking at how do we develop hope that will not destroy us. For that he said, and which is the Stockdale paradox:

"You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end - which you can never afford to lose - with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts about your current reality, whatever they might be."

This has helped me a lot because I never said i would feel more detached, better etc. if ____ happens and if i do _____. I just had faith that it will be better and didn't deny the facts on the ground of what was happening - basically not shying away from reality and putting my head in the sand.

I still struggle with this at times, but this paradox helps to reframe things and bring me back from delusional thinking or fantasizing about some outcome. It's not easy, but it has definitely helped me a lot to stay grounded.


No one is coming to save you!

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