No changes on WAW - Pack_19 Part II

[SteveLW]

Pack_19, outside the box thinking is INSIDE THE DB BOX THINKING. And what I see in your long post......is VERY little DBing.

Wife: "W came back saying I am miserable for deducing 200 Eur a month in alimony when that is no difference in my lifestyle and would mean she might need to consider moving out"

Your response should have been: "I see that you are upset. However, I prefer to have legal matters discussed between our Ls. Please have your L respond to mine. What I won't do is stand here and be spoken down to." THEN TURN AND LEAVE!!

Later at the party with my friends a good friend of mine told me if I can pay those extra 200 Eur is just money and worth avoiding the friction with my W and I should see this as the responsibility of having 2 children in this world. I am very lost, I have tried to make a stand as a man and she has used D as a threat because all of a sudden her financial situation is no longer secure as she needs alimony (well she always claims is for the kids and I am taking money from them and forcing them to move out). She has used this as an excuse to say I have not changed and I still have the same issues with money and blaming her and she says when I "really"change she will see it. I dont know what to do, I will see my L again Wednesday but I am torn between the decision to pay her all she wants or remain strong and get D because she is just in that point (I am also sick of hearing "my feelings havent changed since I left"). Those 200 Eur mean nothing to me, is more the feeling of paying for her new life where all doors are shut to the monster I am and our M vows are useless words on a paper.

Be very careful with advice from people that are too close to your situation. And yes, a good friend is too close. Your friend has only one goal, he is trying to get your pain to stop as quickly as possible. He sees you in pain and it pains him. So he suggests something that "smooths things over" in an effort to get you to a pain-free place as quickly as possilble. This friend's heart is in the right place, but his advice is all wrong. See my suggested response above? You need to command respect right now. If you have any chance of ever Ring, it will not be by trying to nice her back. Women cannot be attracted to a man they do not respect, and your W does not respect you. 200 Eur here, 200 Eur there. She will try to bilk you for every Eur she can. Standing up for yourself may not make her like you, but by golly it will make her respect you!

In high school, there as a girl I was interested in. She was very cute. One day I finally worked up the nerve during class to turn around to her (she sat right behind me) and say something flirtatious to her. Her response was "I am going to have my BF kick your -donkey-." LOL I looked at her and said "Fine, tell him to bring it on." And turned back around.

The next day I didn't acknowledge her. Finally, during some open time in class she tapped my on the shoulder. I turned around and she struck up a conversation with me. She never once mentioned her BF again to me, and a few weeks later she intimated to me that they had broken up. I could tell she was interested but my feelings by that time had changed,and we remained friends through high school. My response to her initial threat, and then my acting "as if" afterward made her respect me. And with respect comes attraction.

You should have seen the face on my S6 when I told him I had to leave and hugged him, he was sad, upset and broken. Yes Sandi you are right, I dont like this woman and the way she treats me with no respect or admiration. I am a monster to her and the source of all this unhappiness, but I would try to change that for the sake of my children. I am afraid you are right and I cannot change her feelings or make her love me again.

Always tough to see the kids in pain because their parents are splitting up. But that is out of your hands. You did the right thing by not staying. AS long as she treats you with no respect you need to continue to distance yourself from her. Be his father, but stop trying to be her husband. One day your S will understand whose fault all this was.

Your goal right now is to COMMAND respect. Do not verbally demand it, that will sound weak and unattractive. Just act in ways that COMMAND it. Like the above. When she is being disrespectful, END THE CONVERSATION AND WALK AWAY. We teach people on to treat us. You need to start teaching her that she cannot treat you that way.

I have spent the weekend at the beach with friends but I was down. I keep having this feeling that all she wants is financial support and to get me as far as possible from her. The last couple of times I tried to start casual conversation with W she comes back to me with sentences as "I am busy with the kids" or "I am having dinner" and nothing else. I dont understand all the times she says I didnt want this, I am going through a very harsh time, I cry every day and when we have a chance to sit down face to face is all blame and excuses to avoid a new fresh start. Early Aug it will be the first anniversary of DB, I am much better and using my GAL activities to fuel my inner strength but I dont know what to do anymore.

Good job on the GAL! However, 2x4 time. It sounds like you allowed your feelings to dictate your actions. "I was down, and I acted down." One of the truths I learned in my sitch? Actions dictate feelings! So force yourself to NOT act down and low-and-behold, your feelings will follow suit!

AND FOR PETE'S SAKE STOP INITIATING CONVERSATION WITH HER! One of the first DB principles is to remove all pressure and pursuit. To not follow her her around and beg for attention. To be the one to END conversations, not the one to start them. When you are around her you act upbeat, happy, pleased. You do not start conversation. When she does, you listen and validate. And the be the busy one! "I have to go take care of XYZ..." then to take care of XYZ!

Stop begging for crumbs!

What do you all mean by stop fighting for your M? Should I live a life where my R side is frozen? I know I have to leave her alone. It's been a full year and her feet are planted on the very same spot. I am tired and lonely, I go to bed every night to our marital bed alone and I force myself to keep a single happy man state of mind. The coldness she uses to speak about D... it blows my mind. The other day she told me we had S6 by accident as a young couple and S1 when she was in a bubble to make our R work no matter what, but we have never had intimacy. If I try to talk to her about how we both need to work on this, she feels like I am blaming her and not accepting I was the sole cause of the failure of our M. Then there are things like, I cannot understand you say DB hurt you when our R was dead long ago and not much changed when I started closing doors to you and treating you as if we were formally S. At some point she even said making her be with me would be like forcing me to marry a woman I find cute but is totally unknown to me...

"What do you all mean by stop fighting for your M?" It means what you are doing. Get your L to move things forward with custody and alimony. It means to stop trying to save the MR, and start trying to save you. It means commanding respect! It mean start preparing for the worst (you can still hope for the best). Are yiou in IC? If not, get into IC! GAL, 180 (self-improve), and work on detachment, which you clearly are not doing a good job of!

"Should I live a life where my R side is frozen?" You should live where your R is OVER, because it is. It might start a new against someday, but for now you assume it is over.

"I know I have to leave her alone. It's been a full year and her feet are planted on the very same spot. I am tired and lonely, I go to bed every night to our marital bed alone and I force myself to keep a single happy man state of mind. The coldness she uses to speak about D... it blows my mind. The other day she told me we had S6 by accident as a young couple and S1 when she was in a bubble to make our R work no matter what, but we have never had intimacy." This is because you are DBING WITH EXPECTATIONS! Constantly GAL, to see if it works. 180ing, to see if it works. Acting detached, to see if it works. No one EVER, EVER DBs well with one eye over their shoulder. So stop looking for reactions and changes from her. GAL, 180, and detach....FOR YOURSELF

"If I try to talk to her about how we both need to work on this, she feels like I am blaming her and not accepting I was the sole cause of the failure of our M." STOP TALKING TO HER ABOUT THIS!! It makes you look pathetic, weak and unattractive. And it breaks one of the core DB principles: "DO NOT INITIATE R TALKS!"

"Then there are things like, I cannot understand you say DB hurt you when our R was dead long ago and not much changed when I started closing doors to you and treating you as if we were formally S. At some point she even said making her be with me would be like forcing me to marry a woman I find cute but is totally unknown to me..." BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS, and only half of what she does. My goodness, you are hanging on her every word. You cannot trust a thing that comes out of her mouth right now, and you certainly should not be going down the rabbit hole of trying to figure it out! This W is a WAS...she lost in Neverland. And you are trying to figure out what her words mean? You'd have more success chasing pots of gold at the end of rainbows. Stop putting energy into things that are cheeseless tunnels.

I guess I undergo these "conversations" because she always says if we are to ever R it will not be via Retrouvaille or anything similar but rather progressively by talking and then doing things together. I never thought we would spend this summer separated, I know I had issues and I am working to erase them, but I never thought the harm I caused her through my emotional inability and selfishness was so big to break our family forever. I continue to work on myself, one step at a time, I am now reading "The ways of the superior man" after having finished "His needs, her needs" and I last Saturday I beat my personal 10k best time at now 48 mins 50 secs.

More "she says". She says whatever is expedient to her at the time. She blames you. She tells you what you want to hear. She changes the rules of R. She tells you there is no chance to R. She says you guys need to talk and do things together. Then she refuses to talk and do things. DON'T YOU SEE?? Her words are MEANINGLESS. Stop attaching meaning to them.

"I know I had issues and I am working to erase them, but" Wow, that smacks of being dismissive. When you say "but" you undo everything you said before it. Do you really know you had issues? Are you really working to erase them? What are you doing? Because lots of LBS try to fix their issues just to get to R, and not permanently. This is why I say you work on 180s for YOU!! Not for her or the MR!! This is why IC is important. You need to cement your changes. Make them permanent, regardless of whether you R with her or not.

Human mind is wicked, all I can think of is those great moments we have lived together and her mind is focused on every discussion, every time she felt ignored or rejected... I admitted to her I probably have a pink view of our R but I know I wasnt happy either and I want something really different with her and she is the most valuable thing I had in my life. I am learning so much from my books, I started listening to women actively and I have identified a list of frustrations I had in my R with W and I will never allow to happen again (as in I will speak out next time I am in a R about this).

Classic LBS and WAS stuff here. After BD the LBS romanticizes how awesome the MR. The WAS can't see anything but the negative. I see you pointing out your improvements, which is fine here. But please never point them out to her! If you do you ruin any chance of her giving you credit for it. You just really change for the better and over time she will notice it. She will be leery of it at first and won't trust it. But if you are consistent then she will trust it. But if you point it out to her she will never ever trust it. And think you are just behaving that way to get her back.

Again apologies for my long post, I need somewhere to write about this. W has told me I have wasted opportunities to come closer to her but I honestly cannot think when!! She has used the stupid legal terms in our S agreement to judge me as a man and reinforce her belief that I have not changed and cannot assume my blame. She will only talk to me about the separation agreement, is like a $%#^# flashback to munich october last year when all she wanted from me was the agreement signed to come to Spain. For all other matters I get cold answers as if she wanted to avoid me. I am not forcing her to be with a bad man or to go back to the R we had, why wont she see that?

"W has told me" STOP IT. Her words are meaningless!!

"She has used the stupid legal terms in our S agreement to judge me as a man and reinforce her belief that I have not changed and cannot assume my blame. " She is trying to manipulate you into getting what she wants. Don't fall for it!

"She will only talk to me about the separation agreement, is like a $%#^# flashback to munich october last year when all she wanted from me was the agreement signed to come to Spain. For all other matters I get cold answers as if she wanted to avoid me. I am not forcing her to be with a bad man or to go back to the R we had, why wont she see that?"

Again, stop focusing on her! Focus on you. Make your changes real and permanent....FOR YOU. This right here proves to me that you are constantly looking over your shoulder to see if she is noticing. But for pete's sake just back off and leave her alone. Let her come to you. WASs are like cats, if you try to reach for them they will run away. But if you sit quietly and ignore them, eventually they will get curious and come to you on their terms. Stop reaching for her!!
[/quote]

Life is freaking good, I have 2 amazing children with a woman who doesnt feel an inch of love for me. Talk about series in Netflix, life can be much more entertaining!

GROAN. I thought this was going to be about your GAL...then right back to her. Dude, if you are this focused on her all the time then you are smothering her. Pressuring and pursuing her right out of the door.

Can you please help me with this anxiety about the time it has been since she left home? What do I need to do? cut any talks with W? Thank you all for your time and help! please keep posting, I need the support from this board more than ever. Everyone talks to me about how the right woman will come in the future and I need to forget about W and get over my D.

Yes, stop initiating conversations! Learn what detachment is and looks like and start working on it. Up your GAL, but do not be down and depressed through it! Be upbeat, pleased and happy all the time! Work on those 180s for you, not her or anyone else! Get into IC if you are not. Learn how to see your faults through IC, and work on them. I do not think I would have changed if not for my IC!!!

[sandi2]

hi all! Sandi thanks a lot for your words. Let me first ask for help on a new matter and then provide an update about how I am doing.

I don't give advice about financial issues, like how much alimony or child support, etc. I say to be fair, and that's all. No matter how much you increase the amount you pay her, it will not change her feelings about you. She has a heart issue! You saw how she would not accept that you've changed as a man. So, do what you see as financially fair, but don't do it to try and win her.

Pack, are you really listening to what everyone is saying? What is the one piece of advice everyone has in common? STOP TALKING TO YOUR W! At this point, it's business. You and your W should not be discussing the divorce settlement with each other. Your lawyer and her lawyer..........not you and her. Your lawyer will not be influenced by your W's sharp tongue. On the other hand, your feelings are crushed when you try to have a conversation with her. You will not win her back through relationship talk. Stop thinking the next relationship talk will go better. It won't. She is out for blood, b/c she is filled with hate, anger, & spite.

To think outside of the box is to stop your old one-style thought patterns. Change your mindset. Stop thinking you will do something to win her back. That was your original plan and your mindset was so strong it caused you to continually go down cheeseless tunnels. This type thinking has crippled you from really detaching, b/c you thought talking about the relationship with her was the way to work out the reconciliation. You thought you could verbally convince her you had changed. You couldn't. Stop repeating actions that are not successful. Your thinking has been so tightly boxed in this one way that I have not been able to break through and convince you to stop going down these cheeseless tunnels. Let me say it this way. Your actions seem to say that you don't believe the advice we give. IMHO, you saw only one way of reconciling with your estranged W..........which was to improve yourself enough to impress her to give the M another chance. In order to show her "your 180's" you thought you had to talk with her. No matter how I tried to tell you to change this type of thinking about 180's, you continued. It seemed everything you did was from the viewpoint of "winning" her back. Maybe that makes sense to the nature of a LBH, but it doesn't last. No point in me continuing on this soapbox.

Both of you repeat unsuccessful actions. She calls you wanting to talk, and she says the same old stuff each time.
She appears to be on a mission to punish you badly, so my advice is to have no verbal contact with her. I told you to stop trying to save your marriage, b/c I thought maybe your mindset would change.....thus your actions would change. Then, you go back and have a three hour conversation where she tears you apart again.

I'm going to say this again. I think it will take you completely dropping the emotional rope you have around her and moving on with your life, before she'll change her mind......if ever. She has to believe she has lost you forever, and the only way I think it will happen is for you to really let go of the idea of reconciling. Otherwise, your emotions will allow you to get pulled into her verbal bashing sessions.......which sets everything back to square one again.

She has to believe she put you back on the market for single women. She had many chances, and she threw them away. Until a W feels the H is over and done with her.......her angry, selfish heart will not change for the better. She'll continue through life with bitterness burning in her soul. So, unfortunately, it will probably mean going through the divorce and her having years to experience life without you, before her heart softens......if it ever does. There are no guarantees.

((hugs))

[Pack_19]

hi Steve, Sandi,

Thanks a lot for your posts. I have re-read my last post and after your reply I can see how pathetic and anti-DB my attitude centered on WAW is. Believe it or not I can have some good days when I see your points and my mistakes crystal clear.

I do have big issues I want to fix for me. I have made exercise a big part of my life now, as it was when I was a teenager, I dont know why I stopped that, it keeps me in a good mood and boosts my confidence. I was also excessively focused on my career and making big money, now I am starting to enjoy calling my friends who live closely to go for a coffee or a beer and I had serious active listening issues I am trying to delete. This is only a little taste of the many things I want to change for me and it is really for me. I was not happy inside my M either, I am trying to analyze my faults were applicable to delete them, not for her, to make me a better person.

Not that I blame W but she has hurt me so badly with words that I give too much importance to every little thing she says, I need to get better there. I will work on getting better at being independent, detaching and GAL for myself.

@Steve, thanks a lot for your opinion and help, you have made me see my previous post in a very different way.

@Sandi, I never meant to ask for financial help, I wanted your objective opinion on whether she is manipulating me, I am sorry I did not made that clear. I genuinely expected a different course in those conversations, it seems all she cares about now is having her expenses covered. Again that is not a excuse to keep undergoing such conversations.

I have started an instagram account, my friends told me is a great way to socialize nowadays, let's see! So far I am posting about cars and fun moments with friends and I think that is all I want reflected there. I saw one of W's best friends yesterday and she pretended not to see me and looked around for all the time I walked pass. This has happened before, I always think I would say hello, I have nothing against you, but W must have told friends I made her very unhappy (more crazy WAW talk!).

I am picking up the kids today! I bought a plastic pool for the house in the Sierra and we can also go to the beach with my parents, not sure what they will prefer but for sure we are going to have a great time! S1 will be 2 next week, S6 wants to throw a party under the theme of Hotel Transylvania so I will go and get decorations, make Frankenstein punch and other things to have a great time!

Sometimes I think it would her so much if W was with OP that I force myself to avoid seeing our M as over, I cant seem to make that pain go away from my chest. I truly think if I could let go of that pain and fear, I would do much better.

Again thanks a lot to all of you, I know I am a bad DB but I will work on improving that, you deserve to see some good work on my side after all the time you have invested on my sitch.

((hugs))
Pack

[Pack_19]

hi all!

I went to bed yesterday thinking a lot about how centered I am and have been all the time on my W. Last time we talked she said something along the lines of "well you want me to see changes so listen to my hints". I cannot say or do anything right now in relation to her that will not harm me or my feelings.

I am really tired of listening to things like "I am very sure we had to separate and it was the only way to make you see the truth" or "if you had changed 3 months earlier we would not be here" or "you are unstable in your actions"..,

I dont know why I stay there to listen to it all and the worst of all I accept it as true to the point that it hurts me for days. If I make an attempt to go and tell her she is being disrespectful her reply is "well from now on we only talk about the kids and dont ever come into my house". Ok! She is also losing a wonderful man, it is not my job to make her see it and she wont allow her heart to change. Yesterday she told me the only reason we have not had a chance by now has been my behaviour, again because I picked a second L and I took advantage of covid to enforce shared custody.

I have been thinking also about what Steve told me, GAL with a mindset of letting my happy actions guide my feelings and not vice versa. I am going to read the detachment thread a lot and start implementing the steps there. I am going to find IC locally and really STOP all communications with W. It's been a year and I was always thinking our M was alive because of the strength of its vows but the truth is that it has been over a year since we have had a healthy conversation. It has been many years since I am a much lower priority in her life than our children and she did a huge mistake thinking the way to fix our M was to have a second child in a point when we were starting to be more engaged with each other. I also made many mistakes that I will erase from my personality.

I have told her many times the best for our children is to have a family where their parents love each other and even when I see this as a basic truth, I think she has seen this as emotional manipulation as trying to use the children to force her to be with me. She is always telling me all I have to do is understand her and change and that she will never go back to someone who can throw back at her any tiny part of her actions. I just want a fresh and opposite start, I think the happiness we would gain is worth leaving behind what has happened, maybe I am wrong and we are not meant for each other.

could I ask some advice on little SMART goals in terms of the R with W? Something as:

> Stop all R talks
> Leave first when we exchange kids
> Detach from her
> ?

Thank you all for your help!

[LH19]

I went to bed yesterday thinking a lot about how centered I am and have been all the time on my W. Last time we talked she said something along the lines of "well you want me to see changes so listen to my hints". I cannot say or do anything right now in relation to her that will not harm me or my feelings.

Well number one she's manipulating you and number 2 you need to get emotionally stronger.

I am really tired of listening to things like "I am very sure we had to separate and it was the only way to make you see the truth" or "if you had changed 3 months earlier we would not be here" or "you are unstable in your actions"..,

She's manipulating you and you do seem a little unstable

I dont know why I stay there to listen to it all and the worst of all I accept it as true to the point that it hurts me for days.

Dude, you need to get emotionally stronger

If I make an attempt to go and tell her she is being disrespectful her reply is "well from now on we only talk about the kids and dont ever come into my house".

You should only be talking about the kids anyways

Ok! She is also losing a wonderful man, it is not my job to make her see it and she wont allow her heart to change.

She doesn't see it that way. What makes you so wonderful Pack?

Yesterday she told me the only reason we have not had a chance by now has been my behaviour, again because I picked a second L and I took advantage of covid to enforce shared custody.

She's manipulating you

I have been thinking also about what Steve told me, GAL with a mindset of letting my happy actions guide my feelings and not vice versa. I am going to read the detachment thread a lot and start implementing the steps there.

Now your thinking correctly!

I am going to find IC locally and really STOP all communications with W.

Exactly!

It's been a year and I was always thinking our M was alive because of the strength of its vows but the truth is that it has been over a year since we have had a healthy conversation.

Ahh the old for better or for worse fairytale.......

I have told her many times the best for our children is to have a family where their parents love each other and even when I see this as a basic truth, I think she has seen this as emotional manipulation as trying to use the children to force her to be with me.

Well number 1 you are manipulating her and applying pressure and guilt which is DB 101

She is always telling me all I have to do is understand her and change and that she will never go back to someone who can throw back at her any tiny part of her actions. I just want a fresh and opposite start, I think the happiness we would gain is worth leaving behind what has happened, maybe I am wrong and we are not meant for each other.

Well it takes two to make a marriage work and she has one foot out the door

could I ask some advice on little SMART goals in terms of the R with W? Something as:

> Stop all R talks
> Leave first when we exchange kids
> Detach from her
> ?

I think you really need to forget about your W right now and set some goals on understanding and attracting women. Also, IMO you need to get emotionally stronger.

[sandi2]

Your life apart from the W seems to be developing well. That's good!

Not that I blame W but she has hurt me so badly with words that I give too much importance to every little thing she says, I need to get better there.

Do you want to know when you will get better? When you stop giving her the opportunity to talk. Paco, you have to shut her out, in order for you to build your self esteem. She is the destroyer of your self esteem. Each time she has a go at you, you suffer emotionally. Therefore, don't have conversations with her, and don't give her the chance to rage against you.

I genuinely expected a different course in those conversations, it seems all she cares about now is having her expenses covered. Again that is not a excuse to keep undergoing such conversations.

But why would you expect it to be different? Are you still doing things you believe will please her? The woman has issues, and nobody can fix them, except her. By expecting the next contact from her to be different, you set yourself up for disappointment. Sometimes, a person can DB as much as possible and it doesn't stop a divorce, and it doesn't change the other spouse. DB is not a guarantee that a marriage won't end. The other spouse has free will.

I have started an instagram account, my friends told me is a great way to socialize nowadays, let's see! So far I am posting about cars and fun moments with friends and I think that is all I want reflected there.

Good!

I saw one of W's best friends yesterday and she pretended not to see me and looked around for all the time I walked pass. This has happened before, I always think I would say hello, I have nothing against you, but W must have told friends I made her very unhappy (more crazy WAW talk!).

You can't trust her friends.

Sometimes I think it would her so much if W was with OP that I force myself to avoid seeing our M as over, I cant seem to make that pain go away from my chest. I truly think if I could let go of that pain and fear, I would do much better.

She has made references to how she is free to date others, so she may have her eyes on another man. If so, I pity him, b/c she has so much anger she'll carry it forward in another relationship. I really think she says those things to hurt you deeper.

Your M has been over for a long time. (((hugs))) You are hanging on to a corpse. Let go, so you can start to heal.

I know I am a bad DB but I will work on improving that, you deserve to see some good work on my side after all the time you have invested on my sitch.

We just want to see you happy. You don't have to DB for us. This is your life. It would be a giant step, if you can work on letting go of the M. Forget about trying to act a particular way with her. That only trips you up. Just work on dropping the rope, and stop having talks with her.

[Pack_19]

hi LH!

Thanks a lot for your comments. Could you elaborate a bit more on getting emotionally stronger? Is this linked to self confidence and self esteem or is it something different?

I have set goals for me on all physical, emotional, spiritual and intellectual levels but in the back of my head I always had the hope for R. Starting today I will do my best to implement these:

> Prepare for the worst, accept my M is over and talk to other women

> Work on detachment

> Stop talking to W unless it is about the kids

> Start to GAL for real with no expectations

I dont think I am wonderful. I am a caring person, I try to stay fit and healthy, I love my children and I think I am a good father, I am fun to be with, I can keep a good conversation and I have a great job where I feel appreciated, I am not superman but she is treating me like a rock who does not deserve a word from her. W can justify all her behavior by saying well I dont love you so what were you expecting and meanwhile I am deeply stuck in that fairytale of for better or worse... I am so pathetic!

[LH19]

Thanks a lot for your comments. Could you elaborate a bit more on getting emotionally stronger? Is this linked to self confidence and self esteem or is it something different?

Yes they are definitely linked together. You can't let her words phase you. You have to get to a place where you don't care what the fuch she says or thinks about you. There are over 3 billion other women in this world.

I have set goals for me on all physical, emotional, spiritual and intellectual levels but in the back of my head I always had the hope for R. Starting today I will do my best to implement these:

> Prepare for the worst, accept my M is over and talk to other women

> Work on detachment

> Stop talking to W unless it is about the kids

> Start to GAL for real with no expectations

This is all good!

I dont think I am wonderful. I am a caring person, I try to stay fit and healthy, I love my children and I think I am a good father, I am fun to be with, I can keep a good conversation and I have a great job where I feel appreciated, I am not superman but she is treating me like a rock who does not deserve a word from her. W can justify all her behavior by saying well I dont love you so what were you expecting and meanwhile I am deeply stuck in that fairytale of for better or worse... I am so pathetic!

You're not pathetic. Your a good man who loves his family and wants to keep it together. Unfortunately there is so much more involved with attraction and listening skills etc. You have to let her go to get her back.

[sandi2]

I agree, you are not pathetic. Don't call yourself negative words, or think you are failure when you make mistakes.

[Pack_19]

hi all!

Sandi, LH thanks a lot for been so direct and helpful with me. I have been feeling quite pathetic lately. I do know how to be attractive to women, I have never had a problem there, is more that feeling of repairing our R asap. I have come to the conclusion that I have to work on my patience and the LRT activities for me, being independent again.

I had an amazing weekend with the kids at the beach. The sea was moody and we could enjoy some waves with very good water temperature. I also helped S6 to gain more confidence when swimming in the pool. Yesterday we went shopping for the BD party of S1 (soon to be S2), I am planning a party themed on Hotel Transylvania movies and I got face make up to get us all looking like Frankenstein, we also got decorations and ingredients to make some spooky recipes!

I have not been very productive lately, being with the kids means I do more things at home and with them. This brings a negative feeling that can sometimes pile up with the feelings about the loss of my M and it is not helping me. On the good side, a lot of the people I come across make positive comments on my physical appearance, I know that is only a minor part of the changes I need to implement but it feels incredibly good to get some positive recognition from outside.

I have been reading a lot about detachment, working on a mindset where I can see current R with W objectively and I can assess all the things that are unhealthy about our interactions. After our 2 or 3 conversations about financial issues and the S agreement there has been silence and ignorance, she is back to where she has consistently been. I know I cannot put weight on what she says right now but there are two things that have been in my mind lately.

W said if it wasn't for my behavior through my L we would have had a chance of R by now, but I blew it. In the sense of me showing her I want to screhw her life, I dont understand why she seems to determined on making me a messed up person. I dont want to see whta she said as a positive sign, truth is there are no positive signs, period. W mentioned she has told friends if she had to choose between someone who can be a 100 for her and if I was able to give her 50 she would choose me because of the kids. I guess this is in line with me being the best plan B or her trying to tell herself she is an amazing mom no matter what happens between us and in our family. I dont know where these come from but they really hurt my self esteem, I will try to let all those conversations go off my mind. As you can see, I am struggling with sticking myself to the rule of "believe nothing they say and 50% of what they do" and how it conflicts with becoming a better listener and really paying attention to what S expresses, am I making sense? Maybe someone here has brought this up before.

I had a young woman approach me at the pool when I was with S1 and ask me about him, she was very attractive. I could feel I was closed to any conversation with her beyond sharing info about S1. I will work on that.

I have been struggling with physical needs lately, I still feel attracted to W when I have seen her. When I get these impulses I use them as energy to fuel my exercise routines. W spent the weekend with her support person number 1 (her cousin who recently called up on her wedding). Not that I care, just want to share here that their little support circle is up and running as always. Not sure if W compares me to her cousin's ex, I know that would not be fair but there is nothing I can do about it.

I have decided to go back to church, I have let myself go from my believes, but I feel like I need to reconnect with that side of me. I had a call with my financial advisor in Germany, he told me people have been inquiring a lot about houses around the area where we bought, apparently they keep selling for really good prices. That gives me some peace, despite the feeling of demolishing the life I was trying to build for my family.

I am very lucky to have the R I do with my S6. If it wasn't for him I would probably still be on a darker place in my life. I keep reading my books, making lists of things I need to improve in myself and the relationships in my life and trying to take steps on this direction. I have been having many thoughts about the better and improved R I want with W. I have always thought picturing me having those moments, conversations and gestures with her would give me strength to go on and to fight for us. Maybe those thoughts are only hurting me because they lead to me thinking about having dates and conversations with W, something it is not going to soon and may never happen.

I know is my decision and my choice to fight for my family and marriage, but I have been doing a terrible job. Next august it will be the anniversary from DB. I want to keep fighting, I think there is still hope and strength in me to do it. I really wish there was a way I could make her at least respect me again. how have other success stories maintained the eyes on the final goal when spouse had one foot out the door and things seemed hopeless?

Thanks for your comments and I will keep posting!