No changes on WAW - Pack_19 Part II

[Pack_19]

Sandi, what do you mean by these 2 sentences? could you elaborate please?

You see fighting for your marriage in only one way. Think outside the box, Pack.


Protect your feelings!

thanks!

[Pack_19]

Diary entry,

I had a BD party yesterday from a female friend from university. There were plenty of 29sh women to talk to and I used the chance to see how I am doing with my regained confidence. Problem is most of them are on their way to M or pregnant so I used the night to enjoy some casual conversation about mundane topics with these friends.

I talked to a friend about how W has brought up D via her L without talking to me and he reassured me that nothing has changed as far as I am concerned. He said most of our common friends believe W has a distorted view on our relationship and he encouraged me to continue to view this L to L conversation as a business transaction.

I the afternoon I talked to W, I told her I will prepare a response for her petition but this is not what I want. She told me I have not changed a bit and since she knows she cannot be happy with me she will not come back to me despite the pain she feels that their children do not have their dad under the same roof. She told me she has made many sacrifices for me by coming to live to the UK and Germany with me, leaving behind friends and family so that I could have the jobs I wanted and on my side I did the basis of what every father does, stop spending money in hobbies and going out and instead providing money for the family. She said that until I cannot understand and agree with her views she cannot talk to me about anything else than the kids. I told her I know I failed as a husband in many aspects but I cannot repair the damage I have done if I cannot even talk to her and she reaffirmed how I have been unfair by finding a second L behind her back instead of talking to her about shared custody and the fact that I know live in the same city as her.

I asked her if then D is the plan since we cannot have a cordial conversation about us and she said right now is what we are doing and she is not willing to have a conversation about us. I am very lost right now, I dont know if I need to move on from all the harm and emotional abuse or if I need to ignore D and keep my GAL activities as a fight for my marriage.

What is the right thing to do now? Down the line in 10 years time, when I look at my children I want to be proud of whatever I choose to do now? How does a man who firmly believes in the vows of his marriage and the value of his family react to a wife who just wants to blame and divorce him?

I am sick of receiving ignorance and disrespect from her. I talked to some women yesterday and you can instantly feel some level of joy and admiration when I was listening to their stories about work, covid, moving back to Seville and other things. It was a good night, I laughed and made others laugh. I hope there are many more of those to come.

Today back to work on my certification, some weight lifting, running and eating healthy. I spend a lot of time thinking about how D, despite the most likely, was never the outcome I expected deep in my heart. I guess I will have a couple of days to grieve and then go back to my GAL. Please dont be too harsh on me, I am not scared of D anymore, it is just the pain it causes in my soul to think that my W is so determined to break our commitment to each other.

[funbun]

I had a BD party yesterday from a female friend from university. There were plenty of 29sh women to talk to and I used the chance to see how I am doing with my regained confidence. Problem is most of them are on their way to M or pregnant so I used the night to enjoy some casual conversation about mundane topics with these friends.

Hi Pack. I don’t have advice for you but as someone who is in the same situation, I share your sentiment. We’re both at a stage where we trying to do the right thing but kept second guessing ourselves. It’s difficult.

Also, Happy belated birthday. do we share the same birthday? Mine’s on the 24th.

[BenB]

Pack, these R talks you have with her, ask yourself if they're really necessary at this point? They certainly don't seem to be helping. How many more times do you wish to explain to her that you are there as her plan B whenever she feels like it?

Talking about wanting to repair the damage you have done and asking her if divorce is her plan since you can't have conversations about the two of you, are those things that you should be talking about to her right now? Sandi gave you some great advice earlier and told you to stop trying to fight for your marriage yet those are the words you still use. GAL activities - great! But you do those for you, not as a strategy to fight for your marriage.

You still seem so focused on her when you should let her go and focus on you.

[Gekko]

Stop calling your W and initiating R talks. You are not going to talk her into respecting you and wanting to save the MR. You are not going to talk her into anything right now.

It's all business now and the business is kids' logistics, which can be handled by text. There is no need to be talking to her right now. This is my opinion. I think it's what is best for you right now as there is no way to initiate R talks if you are not talking.

Marching orders to your L - get me 50% custody starting tomorrow. Now. Get it done now. I want 50% custody right now. If you are entitled to it, get it. Don't delay.

Shore up your boundaries and then enforce them. There are many ways to enforce boundaries, I have used them all. Use the methods that work best for you. As you gain strength you will be able to deploy a variety of boundary enforcing techniques effortlessly. Your W will treat you how you permit her to treat you.

Keep GAL, keep improving, stay positive! Be strong and positive! Things will get better, much better.

Oh, and one more thing - stop calling your W and initiating R talks.

Hang in there buddy.

[Pack_19]

hi all! hope everyone is having a great summer start, at least as great as we can me it for ourselves!

@funbun - Thanks a lot for your comment! this was not my BD party, but a friends. It is being hard to speak to female equals in Seville. All friend groups are very close and many of them know me already as this is not a very big city. TBH, I dont really need it but it is a boost in moral and confidence.

@BenB - Thanks for tuning in! I have spent the last few days reading the golden nuggets compiled by AS and I have started thinking that any woman would be lucky to have me. I take care of myself physically, I have a great career and good values and I care about others. I am emotionally still in a weak spot and you are right I might be selling the idea that I am Mr plan B but believe me I am not engaging in any more R talks until her journey is complete and she can see I was also unhappy and I am no monster who harms the people around him.

@Gekko - Same as with active listening, empathy and validation; I am practicing boundaries with family, friends, W and children. I try to be loving and strong at the same time, I feel like I am really improving myself and the people who are in touch with me. I have been focusing on improving S6 swimming abilities. Having lived in the UK and Germany he is now a late swimmer for the spanish standards and I am helping him regain confidence and improving the way he floats and uses his arms. I will be hitting the piano hard soon, now the job ML certification is done so I have more time for other GAL activities.

I remember reading in your thread you have filtered many good self improvement videos and resources after going through a lot of BS. would you kindly share the best ones with me Gekko? Thanks a lot. with that I am going to move to a new post.

[Pack_19]

hi all,

I need some support because I am quite lost with how things are evolving. As I posted last time, W asked me for D through her L last week, it took a toll on me emotionally but I used sports, my children and friends to minimize the impact. A couple of days ago W invited me to her house over for a conversation, we talked for about 3 hours and this is more or less how it went.

W wanted me to open so I told her I had nothing new to say. She know perfectly how I feel about our M, our family and I said she is free to have the D if she wants it but I do not agree and will never state I don't want to be married to her, our M was a farce or I regret committing myself to her. She told me she sees no changes in me because I still think she does not care about the family and the way I seeked a second L and I tried to enforce shared custody without talking to her and she sees those actions as reason to believe I haven't changed. Since her feelings are still the same and she saw no changes she thought about ending all for once and hence the D. I apologized for any action that might have led her to feel that way but I explained to her I was following my L and IC support and I wanted to defend my position as a man.

She said a man does not reduce the pension like a miserable human or force the children to stay with their grandparent when he travels for work. I told her I felt she was not able to separate the law process in between us that she started from what I am as a man and partner. She stated that for her the way I behave during the legal process says a lot about what kind of man I am. I replied that I do not care or worry for many nowhere near as much as I did, I know I had lots of issues in the past but now it was purely about what is fair. The chat went on and on like that, she told me I have very poor if any emotional intelligence, I told her I can see why you feel that way I have also realized my behavior was very poor. She attacked me, I agreed and tried to validate her feelings. Then she asked me about her issues, I said I had missed her physically a lot and I missed having a partner that I can share my hobbies with. She blamed me for those too, saying she wont come close to me if there is not emotional connection and that I had done a bad job expressing those hobbies to her. She also talked about how S was necessary because of the way we were all the time fighting at home and she told me I had only seen all my issues after S. I said I understood she must have felt a lot of frustration and that I apologized for not having taken action before on me.

About 3 or 4 times she told me she was not in a place to talk R or go out with me even for a walk. She also mentioned if we do R it will not be by going to retrouvaille or similar, but slowly via talking. To sum up, she seemed very keen to understand my demands from the legal process, she insisted she has no feelings for me, we are S and she is free as a bird, I am 99.5% at blame, I have not changed and she can stick to a legal S with no promises that we will ever R. I remained calm and strong throughout the conversation, calling it on her BS in a calm way, telling her all the times she criticizes me and not my behavior on a particular point in time and how negative that is, admitting my flaws and stating very clearly that I wasnt happy either and she is free to think of me as she wants, I have very clear values and goals as a father and man. W cried during our conversation, I think it was genuine because it was not fake tears, but instead the ones that slowly flood your eyes until they unavoidably come out.

S6 was asking if I could stay to play or dinner but I left around 11 pm. I tried to kiss her cheek goodbye and she moved away in front of S6. I dont know how I still expose myself to all that disrespect.

I arrived home and I cried, my brain was torn between two ideas. Either I had just received the worst emotional manipulation from W to make sure she has enough alimony to live in the house she is now (better than mine btw) or I really managed a calm conversation were I showed her I can listen, be calm and constructive. I struggled with thoughts like, "did you not see how she moved back? she still treats you as an infected, the way she talks about going out and being free, focking let her go and have a good acid taste of what she is losing, be the man you were for you and your children, that man had no issues getting as many women as he wanted!" or others like "a woman who brings D to the table in such an ugly way is not having second thoughts, she is just very out of love".

The next morning I went to see my lawyer, I told her the story and how lost I was. I said, L, help me, I am in your hands. I do not know what I should do and I feel like I might be being manipulated in a heavy way. My L said, Pack, I told you I thought you were being too harsh with the reduction in alimony based on your salary difference, I agree with your W that the way you behave in this process speaks about what a man you are. I am here to cover your interest. She suggested we raise alimony a bit, we add a condition that the moment W reaches certain salary level alimony is over and I leave the kids with her when I have to travel for work. She told me not to be scared of D and she said she was proud the way I was acting in a calm way and that I would never regret using my salary to give my children a better life quality, even when they are with W.

When I look in the mirror, when I go to sleep and when I speak to God I am proud of both my actions and attitude and the man I am working to become. I re-read the advice from Sandi 4-5 times a day and I am working to stop fighting for my M. I am going to save Pack, his integrity as a man, his happiness, his value as a friend, father and son. I will stop all contact with W in terms of telling her I want to rebuild our M.

yesterday I went to meet my best friend's newborn baby, Lola. being there, talking about birth and the feelings it brought up all these memories from when we had our S1 in Munich, when W was pregnant last time and all that we lived together in a country where language was a challenge. W had a very fast delivery, to the point that the relaxed german doctors did not have the time to give her the epidular and S1 had a painful natural birth. W was exhausted after all but I was with her all the time and that night, breaking the rules of the german hospital, I stayed with S1 overnight so that she could have some rest. It was one of the happiest days in my life.

I feel sad, like I have lost the most valuable things I ever had because of my internal problems. I did a lot of crying at home, truth is my W has given me some amazing things and I have two wonderful minimonsters thanks to our R.

I am having some bad days and I could really use some views and help from the board! thanks a lot for all your support and help, please keep posting. I need this more than ever these days

[sandi2]

Hi Pack, I hear the sadness in your post. I wish I knew something to say that would help you feel better. As long as you continue to have those "conversations" (as she calls them) you will continue to experience this depression. When I read your account of the R talks, it sounds the same each time. She wants you to listen while she verbally tears you down and says you have not changed. And, what does Paco do? He continues in a THREE HOUR encounter with a female who does not respect him as a man! Why? Why do you put yourself through this punishing ordeal? Why do you continue to go down this cheeseless tunnel?

I'm sorry you are so sad. I don't know how you could feel any other way, after the beating you take from your W. Divorce will not change anything, if you continue to show up whenever she summons you for a talk. Do you realize you don't have to prove anything to her? I've tried to tell you to stop that mindset where you attempt to show her how improved you've become. As far as I can tell, you still seem to think you should endure her insults and put-downs, while you show your validation skills.

I have a question I hope you will consider. Are you really in love with this woman? If so, why? Perhaps you loved the girl you thought you were marrying, IDK. But do you love her now? I wonder if you love the concept of marriage and family, more than actually loving the person she has become. You have talked a lot about not wanting to lose your family. Your children are your family, and you won't lose them.

(((Paco)))

[Pack_19]

hi all! Sandi thanks a lot for your words. Let me first ask for help on a new matter and then provide an update about how I am doing.

I recently talked to my L and made a proposal in terms of custody and alimony. W came back saying I am miserable for deducing 200 Eur a month in alimony when that is no difference in my lifestyle and would mean she might need to consider moving out (she has moved into the best neighborhood in Seville). I told her she has never clarified her expenses to me, I only followed my L recommendation and I cannot believe she continues to mix who I am as a man and the legal process she has started between us.

Last friday we talked about this, I said I would talk to my L and update terms. When I was at her place talking about this my S6 asked about 6 times if I could stay over for dinner. I had a party with my friends so I ended up leaving. From her side there is always more of the same, "you have not changed because if you would had you would understand that I left you and I came back to Spain and I did nothing wrong" or "I am not going to start dating you now, I do not feel anything and I dont know if I can ever feel anything, we are separated and that is the current situation, accept it and move on. If we are never back, that does not make me a bad person. Every time you blame me I feel like you do not understand me"

Later at the party with my friends a good friend of mine told me if I can pay those extra 200 Eur is just money and worth avoiding the friction with my W and I should see this as the responsibility of having 2 children in this world. I am very lost, I have tried to make a stand as a man and she has used D as a threat because all of a sudden her financial situation is no longer secure as she needs alimony (well she always claims is for the kids and I am taking money from them and forcing them to move out). She has used this as an excuse to say I have not changed and I still have the same issues with money and blaming her and she says when I "really"change she will see it. I dont know what to do, I will see my L again Wednesday but I am torn between the decision to pay her all she wants or remain strong and get D because she is just in that point (I am also sick of hearing "my feelings havent changed since I left"). Those 200 Eur mean nothing to me, is more the feeling of paying for her new life where all doors are shut to the monster I am and our M vows are useless words on a paper.

You should have seen the face on my S6 when I told him I had to leave and hugged him, he was sad, upset and broken. Yes Sandi you are right, I dont like this woman and the way she treats me with no respect or admiration. I am a monster to her and the source of all this unhappiness, but I would try to change that for the sake of my children. I am afraid you are right and I cannot change her feelings or make her love me again.

I have spent the weekend at the beach with friends but I was down. I keep having this feeling that all she wants is financial support and to get me as far as possible from her. The last couple of times I tried to start casual conversation with W she comes back to me with sentences as "I am busy with the kids" or "I am having dinner" and nothing else. I dont understand all the times she says I didnt want this, I am going through a very harsh time, I cry every day and when we have a chance to sit down face to face is all blame and excuses to avoid a new fresh start. Early Aug it will be the first anniversary of DB, I am much better and using my GAL activities to fuel my inner strength but I dont know what to do anymore.

What do you all mean by stop fighting for your M? Should I live a life where my R side is frozen? I know I have to leave her alone. It's been a full year and her feet are planted on the very same spot. I am tired and lonely, I go to bed every night to our marital bed alone and I force myself to keep a single happy man state of mind. The coldness she uses to speak about D... it blows my mind. The other day she told me we had S6 by accident as a young couple and S1 when she was in a bubble to make our R work no matter what, but we have never had intimacy. If I try to talk to her about how we both need to work on this, she feels like I am blaming her and not accepting I was the sole cause of the failure of our M. Then there are things like, I cannot understand you say DB hurt you when our R was dead long ago and not much changed when I started closing doors to you and treating you as if we were formally S. At some point she even said making her be with me would be like forcing me to marry a woman I find cute but is totally unknown to me...

I guess I undergo these "conversations" because she always says if we are to ever R it will not be via Retrouvaille or anything similar but rather progressively by talking and then doing things together. I never thought we would spend this summer separated, I know I had issues and I am working to erase them, but I never thought the harm I caused her through my emotional inability and selfishness was so big to break our family forever. I continue to work on myself, one step at a time, I am now reading "The ways of the superior man" after having finished "His needs, her needs" and I last Saturday I beat my personal 10k best time at now 48 mins 50 secs.

Human mind is wicked, all I can think of is those great moments we have lived together and her mind is focused on every discussion, every time she felt ignored or rejected... I admitted to her I probably have a pink view of our R but I know I wasnt happy either and I want something really different with her and she is the most valuable thing I had in my life. I am learning so much from my books, I started listening to women actively and I have identified a list of frustrations I had in my R with W and I will never allow to happen again (as in I will speak out next time I am in a R about this).

Again apologies for my long post, I need somewhere to write about this. W has told me I have wasted opportunities to come closer to her but I honestly cannot think when!! She has used the stupid legal terms in our S agreement to judge me as a man and reinforce her belief that I have not changed and cannot assume my blame. She will only talk to me about the separation agreement, is like a $%#^# flashback to munich october last year when all she wanted from me was the agreement signed to come to Spain. For all other matters I get cold answers as if she wanted to avoid me. I am not forcing her to be with a bad man or to go back to the R we had, why wont she see that?

Life is freaking good, I have 2 amazing children with a woman who doesnt feel an inch of love for me. Talk about series in Netflix, life can be much more entertaining!

Can you please help me with this anxiety about the time it has been since she left home? What do I need to do? cut any talks with W? Thank you all for your time and help! please keep posting, I need the support from this board more than ever. Everyone talks to me about how the right woman will come in the future and I need to forget about W and get over my D.

[Pack_19]

You see fighting for your marriage in only one way. Think outside the box, Pack.

What would some out of the box thinking look like?