A typical Cliche

[Illidin]

Yeah so like I said messed up pretty bad. I hear what all you are saying and I know your info is really valuable. Im really trying to wrap my head around it logically I get it. But my emotions are another story. Someone said to research detachment more. I've been trying, alot of what I'm finding finding is about getting over ex's. The key tenants from those articles seem to be to erase. Accept that you can't be friends, don't contact, remove all the stimulus that associates you to them (which would be litteraly everything I own by the way). Obviously my goal isn't to forget about my wife just to have healthy distance from her so I can be happy with myself either way. If anyone has some better research material for this step please share it with me. Or if I am completely off base with my belief in how that may work let me know.

Just gonna journal for a bit

I took off shortly after her last night. The heat was driving me crazy and I couldn't be in the house anymore. Just kinda drove around and pitied I guess. I remembered my sister was supposed to have people over so I went over there thinking I could just play some board games and distract myself. Plans ended up getting changed so no one else was there. Decided to stay any way and had dinner and watched parasite. If your into some strange heady movies and don't mind subtitles I'd definitely recommend it. Went home around 10 being alone really messed with my mind. It did before all this as well I'd just get lonely easily but now it's a whole different kind of thing. Tried to talk to a friend online but he was heading off. Messed around with my bass for a bit and watched some TV eventually tried to sleep. Woke up every hour or so. Haven't really been motivated today just feel empty. It's 1:45 now wife is still gone. Was trying to not bother but around 1 finally texted to just see if I was going to cook or not. If she wasn't coming back I didn't want to go out of my way. She took awhile to respond but eventually said we'd just figure it out separatly because she didn't know when she would be back. Writing this stuff out I guess helps me clear my thoughts at the very least it puts my mind on a task. Not sure if that what journaling is about or if I should be trying to pry deeper into my feelings about these things. Was walking around the house earlier and noticed on a painting my wife made of a beach there was a heart in the sand with our intials. I don't think I'd noticed it before. Almost broke completely down. My parents text me to ask if we're all right. I use to make a point to come over at least every other week if nothing else to see my brother. And I haven't been answering calls from them either. I still don't know what to do about that. My wife doesn't really care other than questioning me about how I'd tell them. She doesn't want people to think this all because of an affair according to her. She doesn't want to be the bad guy. That this is about our problems for a long time how she felt because of me. Infidelity is like a wright of passage in her family. Practically everyone there has a story. But they are almost all still together also so I don't know. I think part of her problem with discussing it with people is she doesn't want to be compared to say her mother who she cants stand. Also she is afraid to lose my family forever. She's mentioned that she doesn't want to lose them a few times now, it's one of the few things that still bring out emotions from her. But at the end of the day she says it's up to me when we tell people that I'm the one clinging to a hope. I guess that's kinda it for now. Haven't eaten today I guess I should do that. Have dishes and laundry also.

[SteveLW]

Be very careful telling others about your sitch. Your wife needs as smooth a path back to MR2.0 with you as possible. Telling your family is just another obstacle to her coming back. I know in my sitch if I had told friends and family about my wife wanting a D, and and any of the details of her EA I'm pretty sure it's be divorced today. I'm sure that's not the case for everyone, but my wife is not one to face people she's disappointed.

Detachment is but forgetting. It's not putting the person out of sight and/or mind. It is being happy and content with yourself. It is not reacting emotionally to what she says it does. Google "self-differentiation in marriage". It is a complex thing so don't beat yourself up for but getting it, we all struggled with it as a concept.

Have in there, it does get better one way or another.

[Illidin]

Thanks steve for kinda clarifying I'm not crazy in not wanting to forget. The self-differentiation from the little I've read makes a lot of sense. We were definitely missing that in our marriage or least I was. Truthfully I always believed at the bottom of my heart that marriage was about becoming one. That if one of us were invited somewhere then the other was by proxy and that was kinda how people saw it. That was actually a big fight a little while back.

The last couple days haven't been much better. She told me that she told another family member and it kinda set me off. It especially irritates me that she won't be honest and tell others about how it came to head with the affair. Just that she was talking to some guys and was in a group. It just hurts to feel like she can't take any blame even just for the infidelity. This particular person is our god sons mother. I met with my therapist the same day. He seems like a nice guy. Mostly I just broke down about the marriage since its the main issue with me right now. But also talked about my far reaching insecurities and problems with trust and control. Fear and negativity. He said a lot of those things we can try and create new habits that will hopefully help adjust my mindset. He also coaxed me to say I wanted to save my marriage, I was trying not to since I didn't want this to be about that but about me. He gave me the name of a book to read to try and help me understand her mind set better so I could hopefully be better in that regard. I asked what he thought about me wanting to fight and he said if you want to save your marriage I think you should do everything you can before giving up. He also mentioned that if she was there it would be easier to work out the problems and the only thing I can do alone is hope to convince her to come back through actions. He agreed based on our conversation that I shouldn't talk about things that she doesn't bring up. He also spent a good chunk of time asking over and over again if I felt any love or want for her to return, even just the slightest glint in the eye occasionally. I said I honestly didn't. Im pretty certain he was trying to get me to see that it all may be useless.

So yeah was kinda more of the same today emotionally speaking but I'm working very hard to keep my mouth shut. Think I might go out after dinner and just be away for a bit but haven't decided yet. Conversation has been pleasant today but then again it always is until I bring something up or overstay my welcome. Otherwise were old friends, but not close enough to discuss things like her current hobbies.

[SteveLW]

Illidin, sounds like you got a decent IC. I would probably discuss the Divorce Busting approach to him so that he can help you along with that. Most IC's see pressure and pursuit, or reconnection, as the way to save a marriage. As we've told you, that is really not the way to work. This is why MC has such a low rate of success.

I think your IC isn't really trying to get you to see it is useless as much as trying to prepare you for the worst. We have a saying around here: Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. The LBSs that struggle the worst are the ones that cannot fathom a future where they are not with their WAS. It really is an unhealthy way to live. Think about it, we live in a world where you could lose your spouse to death through disease or accident, at any moment. If your entire happiness is wrapped up in one person, even in your spouse, that is unhealthy and dangerous. So more than likely your IC is tyring to get you differentiated to a degree what if your W follows through on what she has stated, which is very likely, so that you can be happy on the other side. And believe it or not, you will be.

[sandi2]

Hi IIlidin, I'm glad you decided to turn to the DB board for support. Your story struck a close cord for me. One of my loved ones experienced much of the same treatment from her H. I want very much to see you come through this situation as a man who has a healthy self-esteem.

I have known men who were terrible for anyone to be around b/c of their negative mindset, and furthermore, they never had a kind word for their W. If he'll belittle in front of others, I tend to believe it doesn't get any better when they are home alone. I think when a man doesn't feel happy about himself, it puts his MR at risk. He may become more controlling, act out of insecurities and/or jealousy, and become a total jerk.....or worse. Unfortunately, it isn't always confined to his W or when he is home. Some people do it with coworkers, relatives,teammates, etc. It's as if the only way for him to look better, is to put the other person down. Another reason I believe can cause some men to interact with his W the way you've described, is due to the male role model he observed in a relationship during his early life. Maybe it was a father figure or another person the young Illidin watched and learned how to act when he is around his wife.

I feel your W either loved you very much, or else she, too, suffered from a very unhealthy sense of self worth. Perhaps she did not have the best role models either, IDK. Damage has occurred for both of you, however, I believe your M can be saved. It won't happen easily or quickly, but it can heal. IMHO, the MR will not be able to progress very much, until the two individuals heal and grow as separate people. I have seen hundreds if H's arrive on the board and anxiously work to improve themselves. After all, don't we promote making 180's? Yes, but here's the problem with most newcomer H's. By the time he joins the DB board, he is in a situation where his W no longer feels attracted to him, and in most cases I've seen, she has lost respect for him. Therefore, he is pretty much wasting energy by trying to become good enough for her to stay in the M. Don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. If there is any type of abuse, that spouse must stop it immediately and get into therapy. Conquering that problem, is needed whether he's married or not. It goes along with him growing into the person he wants to be. The interactions with his W is naturally better, due no abusive behavior, but it may not win her back. Do you see what I'm trying to say? Fix yourself as a man, before you try to be the H you think she wants. The M is broken and she is in no position to grade your work, due to her own stuff that's going on. Concentrate on the man, and when the man improves, it will naturally overflow into all of his relationships.

This behavior has gone on for a long time. She may name over a long list of things you need to improve as a H. I want you to listen to me carefully. She uses this list to self justify her current behavior. Even if you completely do a 180 degree on her list of complaints, it won't be enough to change how she feels about you as her H. A lot of W's even become angry that the H took so long to correct the things she wanted in him long ago. By now, her heart & mindset has changed, b/c she has opened the MR to include other men. You can't be thinking of yourself improving as a H and "winning her back", b/c it doesn't work that way. Here's how women are wired. They have to respect a man in order to feel those "in love" feelings. When they become man & wife, she has to respect as a man and as her H, b/c her level of desire for him is tied to the level of respect she holds.

So first, you need to focus on what you want to improve in yourself as a man. In other words, try to not attach this personal growth process to whether or not your W will like the improvement. You must do it b/c it's what you want for you. It will not work if you are doing it just to persuade her feelings into staying with you. No matter the future of the MR......you will always live with yourself. You can't escape YOU, so work on the things YOU want to change. You are doing it for Illidin, b/c his negative mindset has dug a deep hole and has caused a lot of unhappiness for him......as well as the W. But here's the thing, Illidin, you can't make another adult happy. Her happiness is her own responsibility. We will get to the interactions and what you need to do within the MR, but let me share this tidbit from the other side of street............currently with your W's involvement in these affairs, it is impossible for you to become "good enough" to win her back. The issues are more complex now, due to her own inappropriate behavior (which is a nice way of wording it).

In the previous years, how this dynamic in your relationship......where you usually acted like a jerk, affect the intimacy? I'm talking back before any of her "stuff" began.

Roughly a month and 2 week ago by my approximation. My wife decided to join a sexy meme group on Facebook it was linked via another meme group shed been apart of for awhile. She says it was all just for fun. But a few days past and suddenly she decides she needs to make up new accounts and emails to rejoin with. Then starts to really get involved with the posts. Responding provocatively posting her own memes engaging everyone she can. A post goes out about joining the group chat which she does.

This is similar to my personal story. The bad news is that she's not going to stop. She's addicted. You could become perfect, and she wouldn't stop turning to the source that brings her this particular brand of excitement. It has nothing to with the man or men, but rather with how they make her feel. Those guys aren't showing their true selves. They know how to play the game, and they tell her how beautiful & sexy she is. It's about the ego food she's fed. The good news is that it's not the end of the world and maybe it's not the end of your M. She will need to face consequences for her actions, and one day something will hit her hard enough to awaken her from the fantasy that surrounds her. We can talk more about that as we go.

When she has a period of time off we normally have a great time. She was very intimate in fact actively pursing me, which is very rare for her, it was great. I was very happy.

So, whenever she is away from her stressful job, she relaxes and is enjoyable with the family? Once she's back at work, the stress comes home with her? You said it's rare for her to actively pursue you and it made you very happy. Do you think it's due to her being away from the work related stress? Was this the first time in a long time she sexually pursued you? One more.........you said it made you happy, so did it affect your negative behavior and how you interacted with her in the following days.....or just until she did something you didn't like?

On the group during this week she is now in the chat and meeting more and more people she is having fun and ends up talking to 2 men more privately, sending photos and sexting. In 12 years my wife has never sent a dirty photo to me.

Okay, so you felt jealous b/c she was sexting and sending inappropriate photos to other men? That sounds like a reasonable human reaction. While we are on this particular subject, during the past 12-13 yrs, have either of you been guilty of inappropriate conduct with someone other than your significant other? Flirting, corresponding with members of the opposite sex, having contact with old girlfriends/boyfriends, excluded and/or secret "friendships"? And, BTW, do you participate in porn? Does she? If you respond to these questions, then I will expound on my reasons for asking.

Later that night she takes a shower but gets dressed in the bathroom. This is the moment that makes everything feel wrong.

That's your gut talking to you. I did the same thing. I stopped undressing in front of my H.

I ask her what know, and she tells me she doesn't want to be together. We fight fro awhile about why and she tells me the things I mentioned in the first block. She tells me that the affair has nothing to do with it.

She admitted to having an affair? With one guy, or more than one? Has it been a skin on skin affair?

We fight into the night, by fight I mean I beg.

Begged her to do what? Stop sexting, end the affair(s), don't leave the M, start sexting with you? These are very unattractive behaviors in a man/husband, Illidin. If it helps, you certainly are not the only H to respond that way. My hope is for you to be determined to learn how a strong, confident man should respond in situations such as this one. We're going to put a plan to paper, okay?

Eventually I get her to change her words and call it a break.

I think this is an example of you wearing her down. You won't let up until she finally has to agree to, at least, part of it. Begging and coercing are extremely unattractive behaviors. When you decide to map out a personal plan to create the new version of Illidin, I hope you will put add this one close to the top of the list. We all have something we need to work on, and some us have a lot more or a lot harder behavior patterns to correct than maybe someone else. You've admitted you do have a need to control, so that's the first step......recognizing & admitting it. Question for you.....during the period you are trying to verbally wear her down so that she will give in to what you want, are you aware in the moment that you are trying to control another human adult?

But she also wont agree to any break boundaries she wont stop the affair etc. She says that maybe she can see us back together if I change.

Why was it so important that she call it a break? Are you talking like a separation? In your viewpoint at the time, who would benefit from this "break"?

My post is too long to address everything I see in your introductory post. I encourage you to read the thread on Boundaries. Boundaries are not ultimatums, and they aren't terms. You set boundaries to protect you......not to control the other person. Boundaries are non-negotiable. It's not open for discussion, b/c it's your boundary. She has free choice to honor your boundary, or ignore it. If she chooses not to honor your boundary, then the ball is in your park. Your mistake was trying to make the boundary about her. You wanted to control her. You can only make boundaries for yourself that protect your feelings. If she dishonors your boundary, then there should be some type of consequence. Know what I mean? Read the thread, it explains better.

I'll have to continue on the next post. (See? You aren't the only one who writes long posts.)

Oh, before I forget to tell you, please don't start sharing with your W all this stuff you pick up on the board. I see LBH's do it, and they think it will have some impact on their spouse. It only tips her that he is getting information from some other source. You are the one here, not her. You are getting the tools to use.......not her. Don't show her your toolbox.

[sandi2]

Continuing from my previous post.

Okay, I'm going to talk to you like I normally talk to LBH's. I know you are depressed, and I'm honestly not trying to make you feel worse, but if you don't get a real sense of what's actually going on here......you are going to feel much, much worse. So, take a deep breath, and try to see me as a sweet lady who is speaking to her adult son. Actually, I'd be much tougher with one of my sons, but you get my meaning. There are some sweet people here on the board, who are very talented in comforting people. I'm just not one of them. However, my passion to help save a M is fierce, and I will tell you what I've learned through personal experience, observation, and studying the subject of wayward wives for the past 13 yrs. If you don't want to hear what I have to say, just let me know and I won't have a problem with it.

Oh, and just for the record, my M was saved and we are still together. Upon arriving on the board, I identified myself as a W in MLC. I knew I was in some type of crisis, but MLC wasn't the real issue. Anyway, I had someone to talk very straight to me, and now I am trying to pay it forward.

After that I feel like any of my attempts of showing change are mostly ignored, Didn't help that I couldn't stop asking about the group, our relationship, if she noticed things I was doing etc. 3 weeks go by of me continuing to try. During this time my wife agrees to one boundary, while she is still considering what I am working to show her,

She no longer cares about your attempts of showing change. She is not in a position to judge, observe, determine, grade.....or consider what you are working on or how well you're doing. She has changed and so have her feelings about you. The old W is gone, and this one is a whole different breed. Please don't ever ask again if she has noticed, b/c it could draw her disgust. So far, I've not read where she shows her contempt for you, but I'm still on your first post. I'm just warning you, her feelings have changed. You need to immediately stop this type of behavior where you are trying to get good enough for the approval of a cheater. Your W is displaying wayward conduct, and you are making matters worse by appointing her to judge your "attempts of showing change". Remove yourself from the contest of showing her your attempts, and look to another source that will bring permanent growth and joy for life. We can point you in the general direction, but it's up to you to actually do the leg work.

BTW, what was the boundary you keep mentioning?

I keep trying and come last friday I'm having a hard time know that not only has a month now passed since she joined and everyday she is on the group is building closer bonds, when I found it it had been about 2 weeks in only. I confront her with how she feels in a more serious way than I have been. She says that the things I have been doing are great but also that doesn't believe their totally genuine. Even if they are then why now, why not the million other times she asked. Also its not really changing how shes done with me.

I agree with her. The only reason you are "attempting to show change" is to win her away from the app group. When a spouse fears losing the other one, then everything they do is fear based. How long do you think you could last under that kind of emotional pressure? If you aren't educated in how to go about this, then you are spinning your wheels. Currently, I see a LBH who is operating from his emotions. She's doing the same thing, operating from her emotions. If she were to come back now, you'd stop doing the work.......b/c you don't have positive motivation, and don't have a working plan, and you're grasping at straws to please a wayward W........which never works out for the LBH.

You keep referring to how you are trying, but you haven't actually said what it is. Doesn't matter, b/c your old controlling ways override everything else. Can you see it? You might go several days of "trying", and it would only take two seconds of your old behavior to ruin everything you tried to achieve. You have got to change your way of thinking about all of this. DBing is not passive, surrender your b@lls and become a door mat type of approach to saving a M that has a wayward spouse in an A, or multiple affairs. It takes courage, especially if the DBer is a man, b/c the only thing a wayward wife respects is strength. Therefore, everything you do or say needs to be from that view. Strength has nothing to do with controlling her. It has nothing to do with bullying type of behavior or emotional pressuring her. Is there some man you highly admire b/c he knows how to command (not demand) respect from others? He doesn't tolerate cr@p behavior......like someone showing him disrespect, lying to him, double crossing him, etc. He doesn't let someone push him around, and he certainly doesn't beg a woman to stay with him or give him a chance to try harder. He doesn't chase women.......he attracts them. Do you know anyone like this man?

A man should conduct himself in a way that reflects his moral integrity, values, honor, high standards, etc. These provide him a code of conduct for how he lives his life. A man needs to know what he stands for......and why. This helps him to know where he draws the line (boundaries) in love relationships, business deals, friendships, the working environment, etc. His self worth doesn't rely on someone else's feelings about him. A man such as this is self confident, and women can sense his strength........which they admire.

Since the beginning she has told me still cares for me and wants to be friends.

Let me interpret what she told you. If you don't have the stomach for it.......then look away, b/c I'm going to be very blunt with you. She has no romantic/sexual love for you, currently. That time she was hot for sex and pursuing you? It wasn't you that put her in the mood, and I doubt it was b/c she was off work........but rather, it was the other guys in the group. Now maybe that doesn't matter with you, just as long as you got the benefit of sex......I'm just telling you how she feels about you. And when she says she cares for you and wants to be friends......she means she feels like you are her brother. I haven't met a guy yet who wants a woman to think of him as a brother. The good news is that can change when she stops engaging in this other stuff and starts respecting you. That's going to take a little time, but I just want to assure you that once she ends this lifestyle and starts doing the work, her feelings can catch up.

She wants to live here while we sort out our new lives. It is honestly best for both of us financially. She discussed moving out of our bedroom but I haven't allowed it Im just not ready to sleep alone..

You haven't allowed it? Oh, so now you are being the tough guy by saying what you won't allow? But you allow her to engage with a group of cheaters. Your tough talk is slaughtered when you go on to say that you are just not ready to sleep alone.

So let's talk like adults here. There is no "break" or "separation", b/c you are sleeping together. And why is the betrayed H sleeping with his betrayer? B/c the betrayed H isn't ready to sleep alone. Do you know how pathetic that sounds? You sound as if you have some serious problems that have nothing to do with your MR. I don't know what happened in your past, but this has FEAR written all over it. Your excuses of how it is best for both of you to remain together in the house... is as phony as a three dollar bill, so stamp FEAR on it. She will not change, and nothing will be sorted as long as she gets all the benefits of being M to you, without the responsibilities. Think about it.

I hope you will get into therapy. I'm not being snide, I really want you to get help b/c there is a reason you treated her so badly for years, and after discovering her activity on an app that encourages infidelity, you have tried every way you could to excuse it away or give it a label that you can with, even convincing yourself that if she was on a "break" that made you feel better. Come on! She's a M woman, and there is no such thing as taking a break from marriage! An affair is not called a break........it's called cheating. I'll tell you what I was told when I came on board. Every time I tried to pass put the blame on my H, I was told he wasn't responsible for my affair, and that it would have been more decent of me to divorce him, and then find someone else. But I didn't. Instead, I did just like your W is doing! You cannot coddle a wayward wife. You can't snuggle up with her at night, and think she's going to stop returning to the drug of her choice. The only thing I've seen successfully work in WW cases, is when the H applies tough love. IDK, you may not have what it takes, but I want to believe with some help, you can get there. We can't tell you everything in the first few posts. So, you have to think about it like be schooled. Don't act when you don't know what to do. You need to learn some things, then develop a plan.

Every morning she talks with me while getting ready as if everything is fine. We have dinner together, we make decisions about groceries, sometimes even shop together. We spend at least a couple hours each night watching tv and talking. I am still regularly bringing conversations back to us as I don't know what else to talk about. I remind her that even though I'm depressed I am not being negative anymore. That my mind is fully focused on a positive outcome and I want to prove that to her.

This is her benefiting from the M.

I am not allowed to really ask her much about anything other than school, work and what we are doing together. She rarely opens up about anything on her own.

Over the last month she slowly stopped the act. She wont wear a wedding ring at all anymore regardless if we are going to see my or her family. Neither have been told yet. She has finally stopped telling me she loves me when she leaves a literal 12 year habit that has never been skipped before. She never mentions us on her own. So far only 1 friend of hers has been told no one else knows. The group was told she was separated but before she joined, so no hard feelings to anyone for being a home wreaker. A couple days ago she added one of the group members to her regular facebook with all our family. She has become very close to this girl and tells me even if we got back together she would want to fight to keep that friendship.

This is her without the responsibilities. Any questions?

Today I plan to start making phone calls to find a IC.

Oh, thank goodness! Now listen, if you don't feel like it's a right fit, find another IC. Okay?

I think that's a good place to stop.

[SteveLW]

Illidin, you hit the lotto! Feel very lucky to have Sandi take an interest in your sitch. She is pure gold! Her insight and advice, and 2x4s helped me immensely. Take notes, she's amazing!

[Illidin]

In the previous years, how this dynamic in your relationship......where you usually acted like a jerk, affect the intimacy? I'm talking back before any of her "stuff" began.

I believe so. She was always a little shy about things. I mean we were both our firsts so we leaned and grew together. As teenagers yeah we did some crazy things albeit very tame kink whys. But you know wherever you could be alone before parents came back. When we moved in the first time things were again more intimate but we had been together 5 plus years by a number of the regular problems that led us to here were set in place by then. Yes she says that she felt like she had less self esteem by me and that made it harder for her to be interested. That I didn't compliment enough, that she usually had to ask how she looked and even then I wouldn't actually look just respond ( this is true btw it wasn't me trying to be mean Id be busy or tired and just wouldn't look just say she looked good. It wasn't a lie I knew with all my heart she looked good, she always looked good.) I have never really been into social media so i never responded to her posts about her or us or told her beautiful she was on there. ( I think this was a big problem because that was really the only way she interacted with a lot of people she knew especially her family who all lived far away. So essentially it was impossible for me to interact with or even just for her to get to feel like everyone was seeing how much I thought of her.) This stretched out locally too. i never did things like send flowers to her work or If I did bring a gift I would have her come out to me. i was embarrassed, I didn't like to put myself out there in front of others. i really regret these things now. Im sure it made her feel like I was ashamed or something.) Even worse I would give her hard time about never doing anything special for us in the bedroom. we had a whole closet of lingere that half of which Id never seen her wear. Originally I would remind her that our anniversary was coming or my birthday but it was very common for to do nothing at all let alone something unique. Overtime I would get more aggressive with my request, she would say she didn't remember about the cloths alot, so I would start reminding her alot a week before hand. Pull stuff out so she saw it. If she asked what I wanted for my birthday I would tell her that I wanted her. I wasn't joking though I was very serious if she was wanted to put a bow on or something it would absolutely make my day. But that made it worse because I had built up expectation which then got completely shattered. My pressuring probably didn't make her feel good about doing it either. Still gets worse though. When she did finally do it, I responded badly sometimes. Not that I wasn't happy but I was shocked by it. I would literally not know how to act and my negative mindset would run wild. Usually she didn't look very happy or confidant when she did it. If she had I probably wouldn't have gone down the rabbit hole in mind. But because she looked kinda uncomfortably I would start to feel bad. I wanted this yes but I didn't actually want to force her and now I would feel like I made her do something that made me feel bad it created a strange dynamic at the moment. That reaction of course hurt her. Once I got past it and embraced her things normally got much better in the moment but Im sure those initial reactions stuck with her. sometimes I would even say something stupid on accident like she was acting weird when she was was being aggressive towards me because I was so not use to it.

So, whenever she is away from her stressful job, she relaxes and is enjoyable with the family? Once she's back at work, the stress comes home with her? You said it's rare for her to actively pursue you and it made you very happy. Do you think it's due to her being away from the work related stress? Was this the first time in a long time she sexually pursued you? One more.........you said it made you happy, so did it affect your negative behavior and how you interacted with her in the following days.....or just until she did something you didn't like?

Yes we have a much better time when shes off work. She has much more energy, wants to do things with me in and outside the house. Where normally she wants to sit in her pajamas and watch tv all day just unwind as she put it. She only has 2 days off to do so she would say. If I wanted to get out even to just go to the bank and store she usually wouldn't come unless I begged her. Generally speaking any time she has a long period of time off she in more interested in sex. As she always said she didn't feel as run down and so she was in more in the mood. That really has been a true statement for as long as I can remember. The trade off to this is if were on vacation and doing some stuff all day every day she is tired and normally not as interested. Kind of a thorn in my side as vacations are supposed to be a good chance to go a little wild and not have to worry about it in my mind. She last more openly pursued me about a month before this. That was the average timeline about once a month she would get more active. That was generally the amount of time we had sex on average as well. Over the last couple years after an argument about my needs. She had become more welcoming to my initiations but her truly being completely invested was about once a month on average. Yes it made me more happy and helped me calm down from all my worry and stress about the stay at home order. I spent alot of time with her just watching tv witch I had stopped doing as much recently. We played cards and games which we haven't don't in few months. All and all I felt I was in good place that week. Was a perfect I doubt it. Did I probably say things or ignore things without realizing it I'm sure but again I was working in myself I didn't believe for one second everything could be different instantly. We ordered a new faucet for the house which I tried to talk myself out of for money reasons for a second but renewed my convictions telling myself I was being stupid and bought it. Just a silly thing we didn't need but both thought was cool and wanted to invest in our home for.

While we are on this particular subject, during the past 12-13 yrs, have either of you been guilty of inappropriate conduct with someone other than your significant other? Flirting, corresponding with members of the opposite sex, having contact with old girlfriends/boyfriends, excluded and/or secret "friendships"? And, BTW, do you participate in porn? Does she? If you respond to these questions, then I will expound on my reasons for asking.

I have never done any of those things. As already stated I never had many friends. No ex girlfriends of which there were hardly any every came back into our lives. I told her just about everything I did every day just because I enjoyed to talk to her about it. To my knowledge it was never really an issue with her either. She has always been kinda of a flirt when shes "being nice" in my opinion. But I learned to accept that she didn't do it on purpose. She was hit on occasionally from it and always shot them down and told me about it. Of course there could be things I don't know but there was never a reason to think that. Yes I have always participated in porn, her not so much. I tried to involve her in it when we first started living together. She was always kinda luke warm to it unless the genre really appeared to her. Mostly she liked things we could actually watch like the parodies. It did put her in the mood but wasn't something she requested hardly ever. For me it was originally about the women after being together with my wife it was about the situations. They helped me create a fantasy or better experience a kink that my wife wasn't ready for or we couldn't fulfill with our equipment. But almost every time I would play them but then only finish with my wife in the role in my head.

She admitted to having an affair? With one guy, or more than one? Has it been a skin on skin affair?

With 2 guys I had only seen 1 before confronting. No not skin on skin. As far as i know there is nothing physical even now. I was told that she wasn't involved with those guys anymore but that she was involved with some new guys. That was about 2 weeks ago she won't even kinda discuss that info anymore.

Begged her to do what? Stop sexting, end the affair(s), don't leave the M, start sexting with you? These are very unattractive behaviors in a man/husband, Illidin. If it helps, you certainly are not the only H to respond that way. My hope is for you to be determined to learn how a strong, confident man should respond in situations such as this one. We're going to put a plan to paper, okay?

Yes all of those things. Mainly to fight for us and give a chance to at least withstand this last battle using a any means available.

I think this is an example of you wearing her down. You won't let up until she finally has to agree to, at least, part of it. Begging and coercing are extremely unattractive behaviors. When you decide to map out a personal plan to create the new version of Illidin, I hope you will put add this one close to the top of the list. We all have something we need to work on, and some us have a lot more or a lot harder behavior patterns to correct than maybe someone else. You've admitted you do have a need to control, so that's the first step......recognizing & admitting it. Question for you.....during the period you are trying to verbally wear her down so that she will give in to what you want, are you aware in the moment that you are trying to control another human adult?

No I wouldn't say I ever was. Usually I was just trying to get my feelings across and I guess I thought they were being ignored or misunderstood based on answers I would receive back. So I would rephrase and restate them hoping that if she understood me better that it would have her think about the situation more logically. That has always been a big thing with most of our fights she doesn't feel like something should matter because it will be fun or whatever and I fear the possible outcomes from a logical standpoint. Usually money or risk. Obviously in this case it was just my world crumbling around me and the more she looked at me with her certain and knowing conviction to the end the more insane I felt. I've never in my whole life seen her look so sure about anything. In this particular case I guess I was kinda aware. If it stopped everything from ending it didn't really matter at the time.

Why was it so important that she call it a break? Are you talking like a separation? In your viewpoint at the time, who would benefit from this "break"?

She was adamant about the affair not mattering it could end right then if she wanted something different. Sure that is likely not true. She was certain she didn't want to hurt anymore and she wanted be a her own person who didn't have to worry about my feelings in regards to her choices. That she wanted to be selfish. If I really stifled her freedom since she was 13 then I understood her feelings. She didn't feel like a person she had created. In that scenario an agreed break for a few months where she could find her own self contained happiness and self identity as long as boundaries and goals to reconnect as more independent people existed and were maintained. I honestly think that could have helped us in the long run. We both needed to be able to be less dependent on each other. I've thought that for awhile and have been trying to encourage her to make friends and stop being as overbearing since we bought the house basically. She honestly has more friends now than she did before we moved out of her mothers. I have also been working on that in my own way but much less successfully, Over the last year I also started to work really hard on my negative tendencies. I'll admit it was a slow process I saw a lot of change in myself on that front. Unfortunately she didn't see any of it and was also not paying attention to anything for most of that year anyway. so what i perceived as less fights and progress from me working on myself it was actually distancing she was creating. So basically a real structured break where she stopped cheating and actually wanted that would be a better almost last resort tactic to work on our marriage then just that it is over. Were not doing counselling, or breaks just 1 week we love each other next week were over.

[Illidin]

[quoteBTW, what was the boundary you keep mentioning?[/quote]
In this case it was that she would keep her cloths on online for now. I mentioned that it put me in a state of euphoria that night which I was then disgusted by the next morning.

Is there some man you highly admire b/c he knows how to command (not demand) respect from others? He doesn't tolerate cr@p behavior......like someone showing him disrespect, lying to him, double crossing him, etc. He doesn't let someone push him around, and he certainly doesn't beg a woman to stay with him or give him a chance to try harder. He doesn't chase women.......he attracts them. Do you know anyone like this man?

Nope can't say I ever have or met someone like that. That I know of.

The only thing I've seen successfully work in WW cases, is when the H applies tough love.

Ive seen you say this a lot to people but I will admit Im never sure what you mean by it. When I read you stitch you made of a point of saying your husband gave you all the space you needed. and it took a long time for you to stop what you were doing, You considered leaving but ultimately you feared your financial security. At the end of day you stayed in the same home as your husband and children. Maybe I misunderstood it or misread though. But while we would both be worse off my wife doesn't fear her financial stability. She has a place she could go although its not ideal. She has a lot of drive and motivation to make herself happy and better. Grudges also run in a her family. Maybe its just fear maybe I need to man up as you say but I feel pretty certain if I just kicked her out she would just hold a grudge, Id probably lose any chance to reconcile and I would turn what could be amicably divorce into a complete fight through the courts. Especially because she would then be in close contact with her mother all the time whose favorite pastime is making a living on her back at the expense of ex husbands and boyfriends.

This is her benefiting from the M.

I can understand this but again what advice should I take here.

[Illidin]

On my home front things still continue to be very difficult and trying. Watched my wife pack and leave for the weekend yesterday. Shes going to Vegas to see our god son. Only a handful of times have I had to watch her leave on her own for anything its always lonely and sad. But this is unlike anything I've ever felt before. A couple months ago we would have been excitedly packing together for a chance to get away for a few days. I haven't seen my god son in 2 years, at least she will finally. Broke down again and started trying to talk about us, obviously never a good idea and just hurt me more.

On top of the general issue here I am also having a panic attack about the whole thing. What if she gets sick, will she make the drive okay. I have really bad motion sickness so I drive everywhere always. She has very little experience on the freeways and what not and now she is doing a 4 hour drive to vegas at night. I know she can do it but still scares me. So then I go to get the mail and see she has her pills in there. I know she was almost out and was needing to get gas so I call her to see if I should bring them before she hits the road. Im opening the mail when I notice she has also refilled her birth control. We stopped that over 3 months ago. She has been on it since she was 14 it was a regular fight for years that she wanted to stop which we agreed to this year. I would take over the responsibility of us not getting pregnant. Again this was apart of me trying to change my control this year is was complete nonsense that I didn't respect her health and wishes all those years. Because I feared the failure rate of condoms and didn't like the experience as much. I also had been giving serious though about abandoning my ling time fear about being ready to have kids I didn't want to wait anymore to have the family my wife and I always talked about. So naturally I can't keep my mouth shut by it and she says she always orders them because its better ti have them now while she can. Also she planning on going back on them because they regulate her and she doesn't want to get pregnant now. Again can't control myself so you want to or are having sex. she says no not right now but maybe she will if it comes up. I can probably read into this that there is someone closer she is speaking with now and that is likely true but I'm trying not to for my own health.

Spoke to my therapist again this day right after she started packing on lunch. This is again the main thing I discuss. I also talk about how I got in contact with an old friend. Really the only real friend I ever had. He has a lot of things going on these day so not sure how healthy it is right now. We were friends because we both understood each others way of thinking so yeah. I told my therapist how we were talking about how I felt that no liked me and he said nonsense your a good guy. So I said well I spent a lot of time with people you were friends with and never heard from with out you. He thought about said yeah all my friends hated you. They didn't like you being around. Ive tried to reach out to some people I use to know from school and have had some of the same responses that we weren't friends and they never really liked me around. So my therapist was taken back by that one. Just asked me how I felt about it I told him thats how its always been as long as I remember so it hurts but not terrible. I have to say Im hopeful for these sessions but Ive never really understand how this is supposed to work should be giving me advise on how to make changes or is just about talking out my problems so I see them. Its only the second session so I'm sure there is a process but I just dont know.

I was bad after everything really bad. I differently didn't want to be alone in my house. Went to my sisters for the rest of the night. Even practically falling asleep on the road back wasn't enough to push away the loneliness though that night. Took awhile to sleep and then of course I didn't want to be awake so I slept until noon. I never do that I hate feeling like I missed a day. Honestly though I dont care about any day right now. Being her alone [censored].