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Thx peace, Job and B2-
Originally Posted by peacetoday
and yes His MLC is not your emergency
if he has to leave the home let him
Im not sure if you can keep the house, or if you have kids?

No kids...just H and I...I’m hoping to stay put but it will truly depend on how the financial works out which he doesn’t seem to think is the first step in all of this.
Originally Posted by peacetoday
If he brings it up agin...you can give him more of the same what you already said
well done

Originally Posted by job
Also, I would try not to discuss the legal matters as much as possible. I would refer him back to his lawyer and let the lawyers do the work, after all, they are getting paid to do so. Try to remember, you can't have a rational conversation w/someone who is emotional and bouncing off the walls. The more you attempt to explain things, the more he will become angry and irritated. Best to keep conversations short and to the point...as their emotions are all over the place.

Thank you both...so bang on accurate...I feel confident finally in my new line “ya I’m not sure ....talk to your L” or “hmm not sure have your L talk to my L”. Thank goodness I’ve read examples on here of MLC spouses trying to make “deals”. Without giving too much detail mine just offered me “extra time” to stay in our house while he uses some joint finances to leave.....ummmm no.
Originally Posted by Believe6
Gosh Job is brilliant and grounded. I am taking her words of wisdom for myself too. I hope, Kindly, that you are finding moments of peace and clarity.

Thx B6 I am. It took awhile but I’m in such a better place now. And yes, Jobs words of wisdom and calmness is really quite remarkable. I find such peace in the advice and insights offered by job and others on here...people that have been there done that and as you mentioned and that are seeing clearer than we are.
Originally Posted by job
Many of them will eventually start talking and when they do, you will need to really listen, not offer up advice..,.just listen. Later, that conversation will play over in your mind and you will discover some tidbits that will help you better understand where he's coming from in his crisis. Trust me, when you sit quietly, the answers will be revealed, might not be today...but tomorrow or the next............(edit) One thing that I learned early on...you can't force the answers to come to you...they will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.

I really look forward to the day he says anything other than complain about work (pre virus) and now the virus and being “stuck” in the house. I will def have to dig deep and keep my mouth shut and ears open. I understand a little more of the sitting quietly...thx Job.
Originally Posted by job
I know living w/a MLCer is difficult. I've been there and done that. It's not easy especially now that we are in a major health crisis all over the world and we are having to share space w/them or dealing w/them on a daily basis.
Truth. For me it’s the swings from almost the H I married to shark eyes! It’s really quite astonishing. I’m doing much better at not trying to figure it out but letting it play out as it will...right now it’s just the banging around and packing that’s causing me anxiety.
Originally Posted by Believe6
I am sending good thoughts into the universe and whatever power you believe in. Blessings

Thank you B6- I accept and spread my arms to share with all others (((heart)))

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Journaling ~ So interesting couple of days in the covid quarantine household. The change in H’s mood and behaviour towards me in the last two days has been nothing short of dramatic. Sunday it was L this and we need to talk about selling the house and yesterday and today it has literally been normal conversation, some jokes shared with laughs, helpful with numerous little things around the house and some things that I was specifically working on...lingering longer in common spaces.

I can honestly and wholeheartedly say that my expectations remain at zero. I’ve read enough on here to know that this in no way signals a sudden change of heart on his end. Heck It could just be loneliness with this lockdown.

But why such a seemingly dramatic change? Major major glimpses of H and much less confusion and hurt on his face if that makes sense. Despite me carrying on and focusing on myself (and making awesome meals I might add) I can’t help but feel a little nervous like he’s up to something. Does anyone have any insight related specifically to a big change in behaviour even tho it’s only been two days? Is it usually followed by some form of another BD? I just like being a little prepared. Again I’m in NO WAY feeling like “he’s coming around” but this is the first time in almost 8 months I’ve seen anything close to “normal” behaviour so I’m finding it kinda confusing/ interesting. (For lack of a better word)

Last edited by job; 04/08/20 03:12 PM. Reason: added space between paragraphs for easier reading
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What you are witnessing may be moments of clarity. They do swing back and forth emotionally. Sometimes it could be an action, conversation or even a reminder of some sort and it will send them swinging the pendulum the other way. Now, in my case, whenever my xh was pleasant or chatty, I knew it was up to something, something that would really annoy me, i.e., like a teenager who goes out, drives the car and then scrapes the side of it and doesn't tell you.

Here's another example, he never purchased flowers, cards and candy on Valentine's Day or anniversaries. So, when he did this the last year before flying the coop, I knew he had been up to something...that something was the ow and I point blank asked him what he had done and he said "nothing"...just wanted to show my appreciation for you being my wife. So, the guilt came into play w/him and that was one way I knew he was up to something and lying.

Some won't exhibit this type of behavior, but a large majority of them will. I'm not trying to upset you and you should continue as you have been. He very well may be feeling a bit better and is chatty...but listen closely to that chatter. You should be able to sift through it and learn some things. The more chatty he is the more likely he will let something slip.

Continue as you have been, keep the focus on you as much as you can and stay safe.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Thx for the insight job. Anything you could say 100% doesn’t/wouldn’t upset me. I’m so thankful for the advice, time and support given by yourself and other on this site. I mentioned to dnj the other day that people like him, yourself and this community are a direct reason that I’m doing as “well” as I am 7 months in.

My expectations strongly sit at zero even though sadness/frustration and hopelessness in the sense of “why can’t he see what he’s doing” may at times creep in. It’s amazing how even as things unfold, the confusing behaviour persists.

After two days of “normal” behaviour as I described above ...H has gone back down the rabbit hole. I overheard a couple of conversations with L and maybe his accountant where it sounded as if he hadn’t really started anything yet. After another conversation overheard today, I believe he has now engaged his lawyer ... according to him a second time because he supposedly already had and was surprised my L has heard nothing...I don’t believe any of this. He is also shocked that his business is on the table....things are sadly going to get interesting.

I find it interesting dnj that your H’s pleasant behaviour was usually hiding guilt. Maybe that’s the same for me. He’s taking further steps along the process and feels guilty? He asked today for a full grocery list of what he could pick up for me from the store right after telling me that his L should be in touch with mine and do I have my stuff ready to go? (I know full well he doesn’t...as he also disclosed how much getting a B eval was going to be $$$$$ therefore it hasn’t been done)
Oh well as I know less focus on him more on ME!

I believe this isolation is making him more antsy and dedicated to go. He told me today that his L commented on how many calls they have been getting for D of people not getting along! And how busy they will be once the courts open again. My response was “ ya that’s so sad that there are probably so many people in a situation where it really doesn’t need to come to that but such is life”...he didn’t clue in at all to what I was getting at. Maybe I shouldn’t have said that I dunno.

If they feel guilty why can’t they stop the run away train they are driving?

Personal update: so happy to finally be able to do some work in the garden....just the sun and progress of cleaning up feels so good!

Hope everyone is well (((hugs)))

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Good Morning Kind

Sounds like H had a couple of days of clarity and zoomed back into the rabbit hole. They really can’t, at the moment, face their pain or what they’ve done or are doing. These small moments of clarity are them peaking out, I do believe, are good signs - but don’t focus on them - of progress along the MLC path. As more and more peaks out of the tunnel happen, more and more clarity accumulates for them. The path back to emotional stability is not a jump, it is the summation of many small movements over time. Most definitely a marathon.

I think you are correct, the current situation is making H more antsy to leave. However, dedicated? That remains to be seen. The majority of crisis people talk big, act like they have everything figured out, and seem on top of the world. Yet they move actually rather slowly towards leaving in the absence of pressure.

My XW seems to be an anomaly, blowing up, destroying everything, and moving out all in three hours. As I said, pressure, we don’t know the pressure they are experiencing. They have a lot of internal pressure which they attempt to project upon the LBS. Your H has his perception, his reality. Continue to keep your interactions reasonably pressure free and focused on you.

For example, have you set up the patio furniture? If so, good for you. If not, set it up, this weekend, today. You need not explain anything to H. Just do it. And if or when he wants to poke or pick a fight do not engage. Just look at him and say “What bugging you? I’m just setting up the patio furniture so I can sit outside.” Don’t even stop setting it up. smile Then enjoy the sun and the beautiful day.

Originally Posted by Kindly
He told me today that his L commented on how many calls they have been getting for D of people not getting along! And how busy they will be once the courts open again. My response was “ ya that’s so sad that there are probably so many people in a situation where it really doesn’t need to come to that but such is life”...he didn’t clue in at all to what I was getting at. Maybe I shouldn’t have said that I dunno.

I like what you said. It responded to his comment, putting forward a nice spin on the idea of just how easy it is to get a divorce, and that people don’t need to jump to that as soon as something gets rough.

However little acknowledgement and validation of what he is feeling and saying. Not a big deal. You answered fine, not leading to any fighting. But....

You are right, H didn’t clue into what you were trying to tell him. Did you clue into what he was trying to tell you? Was there a why he was telling you something?

The skill of active listening takes time to develop. The listening to the entire statement before crafting a response. Most of us listen to respond, we need to listen to understand. Then respond.

MLCer’s do drop clues. H is speaking with his lawyer, he told you. He also knows there is not much going to happen until the courts open again. He has a feeling/belief that people aren’t getting along, so it seems normal to him.

This was just him talking at that moment due to whatever he was feeling at that time. Feelings change. Later he would say something different.

Acknowledge and validate first, then depending on how things are going, you could put forward a response. But in all honesty, H isn’t ready to hear it, and no where close to being ready to listen to it. Remember you’re not speaking with a rational person. The vast bulk of the work falls to you, the sane person, the lighthouse, the beacon - I know, unfair. Sorry.

Just passing along a bit of counterintuitive steps for the LBS’s path and growth.

By the way, acknowledging and validating without attempting to modify or change the person is very detaching and promotes compassionate indifference.

Originally Posted by Kindly
If they feel guilty why can’t they stop the run away train they are driving?

A person haunted by guilt doesn’t think clearly. Guilt is a strong powerful emotional force, you don’t face it with your feelings, you face it with rational thought and influence - like you do fear. MLCer’s are not rational people.

MLCer’s emotions are running flat out. They have guilt, fear, pain, elation, despair, joy, sorrow, anxiety, depression, excitement, defeat, and on and on. So much pressing, so much pressure, so much confusion.

A person running on emotions is running from something. And usually trying to bury it by running to something - sex, drinking, spending, whatever. They are not sitting silently letting answers reveal themselves. Their train is roaring along. It takes time to slow down a train.

I am glad you are getting to the garden. It is still too early for much yard work here; need a few few more weeks to get to better weather.

Have a great day. Hope you’re sitting out on the patio getting some sun.

DnJ


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Hi, Kindly! Happy Easter. I wasn't surprised to read your updates about your H's shifts in behavior, because the same thing has been happening with my H. After he mentioned D to our landlord, he seemed to be increasingly at ease and joking with me, sharing food, etc. But he has his moody moments for sure, and he usually withdraws to his room on the weekends and becomes less chatty.

Originally Posted by Kindly
I believe this isolation is making him more antsy and dedicated to go. He told me today that his L commented on how many calls they have been getting for D of people not getting along! And how busy they will be once the courts open again. My response was “ ya that’s so sad that there are probably so many people in a situation where it really doesn’t need to come to that but such is life”...he didn’t clue in at all to what I was getting at.


Oh man. I've been thinking about this a little, reading about people being stuck together and having trouble. It seems to me that, as H and I are ostensibly in the middle of a D, as he sees it (though he's never filed and has never pressured me to do anything), it is incredible that we can cooperate with groceries and be friendly and civil in the house at this time... it's almost as if we could be married. Almost as if there is some foundation to our M worth working on. Lol. It's mainly because if he is moody, I ignore him, and I am always striving to be kind and patient, as I know you are too. I think most people in our situations would be ready to argue or explode if they weren't trying to get their spouse to reconsider or talk about why they're acting the way they're acting. I mean, it boggles my mind how "easy" he's had it the last ten months, with no pressure, outward anger, or judgment from me. And of course your H didn't clue in. It's this whole other reality...

DnJ and Job have such helpful and thoughtful responses always. I'm glad you're asking questions here, Kindly, because they help me too.

I hope you're enjoying more time in the garden!


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Hi Dnj! Hope you had a nice Easter Weekend. I have to apologize for the H typo in my last message I meant your W!! I just get so used to typing H! Sorry about that.
Originally Posted by DnJ
For example, have you set up the patio furniture? If so, good for you. If not, set it up, this weekend, today. You need not explain anything to H. Just do it. And if or when he wants to poke or pick a fight do not engage. Just look at him and say “What bugging you? I’m just setting up the patio furniture so I can sit outside.” Don’t even stop setting it up. smile Then enjoy the sun and the beautiful day.


Yes! I did ...all of it! I also did a tonne of yard clean up and gardening this weekend and it was super productive and enjoyable. I love your response suggestions. Sometimes that is where I get hung up - in the “what should I respond with” while keeping it at a minimum.
Thank you also for the feedback on my last encounter ...it’s super comforting to feel like I have a secret cheerleader / coach smile and that I did alright!

Originally Posted by DnJ
However little acknowledgement and validation of what he is feeling and saying. Not a big deal. You answered fine, not leading to any fighting. But....
You are right, H didn’t clue into what you were trying to tell him. Did you clue into what he was trying to tell you? Was there a why he was telling you something?
The skill of active listening takes time to develop. The listening to the entire statement before crafting a response. Most of us listen to respond, we need to listen to understand. Then respond.


This is such a valid point Dnj ...a skill I could totally work on to improve. Being a “fixer, a do-er” etc etc I find I’m always quick with a response, an answer, a solution...and could benefit from fully understanding. This is a great skill to add to ones arsenal ...now how and where do I start? Are there questions that ARE suitable to ask the MCLr to learn more?

I feel like if I break down that previous conversation he really isn’t saying much except for ‘other people are doing this too’ therefore offering him both validation in that he’s not alone and perhaps in his mind justifying his decisions and behaviour. I also feel like him mentioning his L or threatening the sale of the house are his only two ways to ‘keep me in check.’ Not that I’m putting ANY pressure.

So on that note I had another unkind run in with shark eyes yesterday. He had confrontation written all over his face...so I did my best to avoid him. Part way through the day we had a conversation about saving on some insurance. I was immediately met with criticism and ‘why would you bother’ comments. I responded calmly with me “bothering” didn’t effect you and you can choose to apply or not...your choice. He walked away pissed and mumbling something so I asked if he was alright or if something was bothering him? FIRST TIME IN 6/7 months I’ve asked anything! Oops.

H: what do you think? No far from it!
M:what’s wrong? you look upset or angry.
H:umm nothing I’m fine but ...you don’t know how you’re behaving!
M: how am I behaving?
H: i don’t know, it’s how your behaving or something ....we have to sell the house.
M:sorry you feel that way but I don’t know what you want me to do about that right now...
H: Yesterday you and your comment about the garden and plants and moving things around doesn’t make sense because we won’t be here in the summer
M: (here’s where I may have come off too strong again) ok. Sorry you feel that way. I know this is not what you want but again in this current situation I’m not sure what you would like me to do. In the meantime, I will put out the furniture, I will work in the garden and enjoy myself as best I can during this stressful time. Right now you have a roof over your head and food in the fridge so I don’t know what to tell you...you may have to figure something else out. I would however highly appreciate it if you would stop harassing me about having to sell the house. I am trying to be friendly and respect your wishes during this time ...have I given you any other impression? I’d greatly appreciate you not adding more stress onto a stressful time. Have I misunderstood anything? Is there anything else you’d like to discuss?
H: No I’m fine.
M: ok because you don’t seem fine ...I’m here to talk about anything at any time but not to be harassed with something I can do nothing about right now. Is that ok?
H: yes.

Okay. So I know I came across WAY too harsh at the end and I also said WAY too much. In my slight defence I’ve been waiting a loooong time to say SOMETHING...and I chose him constantly bringing up removing my home from me as a boundary that needed to be set for me right now mentally. How could I do better!? It reads like I was finger wagging but I promise I wasn’t!!!
I know he may not retain any of that and he immediately retreated to his cave with door shut and all. Interestingly enough about an hour later he came out, went to a store and started sending me text messages (first time in 8 months) to ask if I needed anything. Today same thing grumpy grumpy all morning and went for a an actual grocery shop (with a list we made together) and has been texting about the lineup and making jokes for the last hour. I feel so detached I’m noticing the behaviour and doing my best to not let it affect me or influence any of my behaviour. I wonder what I can learn from this other than how confused he is? Is there a message between the lines I’m not hearing Dnj?

Originally Posted by DnJ
Have a great day. Hope you’re sitting out on the patio getting some sun.DnJ


Thx Dnj It really is nice to steal a few moments of sunshine and work outside when I can. I will most definitely keep that up. Hopefully all is well with you and that you weren’t too busy with that crazy wind storm yesterday!!

Thx for the long read all! (((Hugs)))

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Kindly, I think you did great. I don't think you said too much. It's hard to know how they will take ANYTHING we say and in any tone we use. You are right in saying he probably won't remember half of what you say. Sometimes I don't remember either. We get so worked up and trying so hard not to say the wrong thing, we can get ourselves confused.

If you keep speaking from a place of love, detachment, acceptance and peace, it will come across that way. We are allowed to speak our minds from time to time and to forgive ourselves if it pushes them back a little. We are still human. We aren't saints, although it takes one sometimes to deal with all we've been dealing with.

Just remember who you are in all this. Keep working on being true to you. React from your values and not your feelings and it will all work out.

I am trying more and more to take deep breaths when I am feeling especially triggered and remind myself of my values--- love, compassion, understanding, strength, courage, hope, faith, empathy, non-judgement, etc.

If I ask my inner self (the universe, God, etc) to help me to speak from the place of my core values, I do better. Doesn't always work. I still can get triggered, but I try. I hope this helps!


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Fate whispers to the warrior, "You can not withstand the storm" And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm." ~Unknown
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Good Morning Kind

Originally Posted by Kindly
Yes! I did ...all of it! I also did a tonne of yard clean up and gardening this weekend and it was super productive and enjoyable.

Excellent!!!

Good for you setting up the patio furniture and enjoying the yard.

Originally Posted by Kindly
This is such a valid point Dnj ...a skill I could totally work on to improve. Being a “fixer, a do-er” etc etc I find I’m always quick with a response, an answer, a solution...and could benefit from fully understanding. This is a great skill to add to ones arsenal ...now how and where do I start? Are there questions that ARE suitable to ask the MCLr to learn more?

I do understand the being quick with a response, an answer, a solution - allow yourself the luxury of not needing to solve it; the luxury not needing to have an answer.

When one approaches a conversation looking to understand first, then do (response, solve, whatever) - we inject that necessary time and collaborative mindset to find a win-win outcome. Of course, this works much better with two rational people, but hey you got H, and he is where he is, emotional and irrational. By the way, during confrontational conversations, and difficult conversations like performance management and disciplinary action, there is a lot of irrational emotions going about too.

Originally Posted by Kindly
This is a great skill to add to ones arsenal

A skill of understanding and getting to people’s underlying reasons is powerful, and can be used as a weapon. Don’t.

I know you just meant this as an expression. However, your mind is listening. Arsenal weaponizes this. Use toolbox, repertoire, abilities, skill set, etc. All those little things accumulate.

I bet you see this differently from just that one little word change.

This is a great skill to add to ones toolbox.

As for what is suitable to ask. Well, like most things - it depends. I know, a wholly unsatisfying and yet completely accurate answer.

It depends on what, where, and how the other person is doing, being, and behaving. That quickness of your mind will be very useful here - the ability to change gears quickly. A lot of time it is to shift into reverse and back out, then go into neutral.

The main idea, respond to what they say, and don’t dig too much.

I think you did a fine job on your conversation. I am running late and leaving for work right now, I could, if you want, give a few ideas of what I see from your conversation. Don’t worry, it’s not too critical - and hindsight is always 20/20. smile

I will add that your ending, the part you are worried about, the big paragraph - don’t worry! That is great! He needed to hear that. You are not a doormat. It is well stated and boundary-like. It also sets up future boundary responses if needed.

Have a great day and enjoy the weather.

DnJ


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Originally Posted by Believe6
Just remember who you are in all this. Keep working on being true to you. React from your values and not your feelings and it will all work out.

I am trying more and more to take deep breaths when I am feeling especially triggered and remind myself of my values--- love, compassion, understanding, strength, courage, hope, faith, empathy, non-judgement, etc.!

Thx so much for the support B6 - your words absolutely help. From a “someone who gets it” stand point, and as always a reminder for us in this high emotional time. As my name implies, I want to be as kind and compassionate as I can be throughout this. Thank you.
Originally Posted by DnJ

When one approaches a conversation looking to understand first, then do (response, solve, whatever) - we inject that necessary time and collaborative mindset to find a win-win outcome. Of course, this works much better with two rational people, but hey you got H, and he is where he is, emotional and irrational. By the way, during confrontational conversations, and difficult conversations like performance management and disciplinary action, there is a lot of irrational emotions going about too.

Yes, the irrational side of things caused by emotions is where it gets tricky (I’ve dealt with this in my professional life as well and you are correct). The other thing at play for me here is the confusing feelings of detaching but still obviously caring about this person and knowing that they are not “well” but don’t know it themselves. I detach, I focus on myself, I repeatedly tell myself I’ve been fired and this is what he wants and that I’m not the cause of this...but even as it comes to the business side of things I feel my emotional mind attempting to take over. For example ~ I just recently made a big move to protect myself financially that I know is going to affect his “plan”...instead of being fine with my ‘business decision’, I’m worried that he is going to get himself into a financial mess by borrowing or doing something silly to get extra funds to facilitate his running behaviour. How does one detach from the “he’s going to mess himself up bad worry”? We’ve worked so hard to get to where we are and I can’t believe how bad he’s jeopardizing us and HIMSELF. I’m struggling with putting these thoughts to rest. I know I must.

Originally Posted by Kindly
This is a great skill to add to ones arsenal

Originally Posted by DnJ
A skill of understanding and getting to people’s underlying reasons is powerful, and can be used as a weapon. Don’t.

I know you just meant this as an expression. However, your mind is listening. Arsenal weaponizes this. Use toolbox, repertoire, abilities, skill set, etc. All those little things accumulate.

I bet you see this differently from just that one little word change.

This is a great skill to add to ones toolbox.

Great point! It’s like having a headache and saying “my head is killing me”. I did just mean it as an expression as you pointed out, however your point is very valid ...the mind is listening! And yes it’s amazing how one word change makes all the difference. When we get caught up in just responding instead of understanding it becomes quite easy to fling the wrong words out into the universe. I’ve definitely been guilty of this...choosing speed of response/reply over accuracy Of choosing the right words sometimes.
Originally Posted by DnJ
I think you did a fine job on your conversation. I am running late and leaving for work right now, I could, if you want, give a few ideas of what I see from your conversation. Don’t worry, it’s not too critical - and hindsight is always 20/20. smile

I would love that when you have time Dnj ~ your support and insight is invaluable to me! Thank you.

Thanks for the thumbs up on the last bit of my convo I appreciate that in a time when there has been such a lack of conversation Between H and I that it is easy to replay things a million times and wonder if you ‘done good’?! Lol!! I was hoping I set a good boundary there. Thank you.

Despite the wonderful sun it’s cold out there today. I will still get out for a bit.

Have a great day at work!
Talk soon

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