Moving forward

[unchien]

I haven't posted in awhile, but I miss the support of the forum.

I filed for D last month. To be honest it was long overdue. We have been in mediation but it was moving verrrrry slowly, one session per month, barely dealing with the first of many issues. We may still continue with mediation, possibly L-assisted. I've taken other steps to stand up for myself during this process. My anxiety has been through the roof at times, and I see the impact of these changes on my kids, but ultimately I feel a sense of relief. I could not keep living the way I have been for the last 9 months.

I get a lot of blowback from my STBXW, but none of what I am asking for is unreasonable. I keep telling myself that. She just doesn't like it, it's a huge change for her. I struggle a lot with this, since I don't like upsetting people, but if I keep letting that instinct run my life I will be miserable. She gets frustrated that I am not abiding by verbal agreements we made when we first separated, and I point out we need to change those agreements and get them in writing, but it gets nowhere.

One major realization has been that my STBXW was quite ill-informed about the D process. For all her accusations with legally problematic language the past year, and the personal emotional turmoil I went through as a result, it's clear she probably did no more than a 30minute L consult. This has become a problem in mediation, because she does not have a L, and hence is not well-informed about the process. The pandemic is obviously affecting many things as well.

It's also a really confusing time for me. I don't understand exactly how things fell off the rails. I know I won't ever get that closure, but the desire to have it remains. Sometimes I wonder if she knew the impact the D would have if she would have made more of an effort to work on the MR. I guess I'll never know. Maybe it's best that she didn't. It's really disappointing to see the impact on my kids right now.

[LH19]

U,

I’m glad you updated and pulled the trigger on the D. Every human alive knows there is an impact on children when you divorce. There’s some good podcasts on YouTube by Diann Wingert that talks about what is going on with women during the midlife transition.

Keep your chin up and move forward!

[may22]

Hi U, thanks for updating us-- been wondering how things are going. I'm sorry it is so tough but I am glad you're moving forward and doing what is best for you and your kids, and truly for your W as well, in the long term. What does the timeline look like for you now?

[unchien]

Thanks LH ~ I'm hoping at some point to do some family therapy work with the kids. This next phase of the process will be hugely disruptive to them.

It's still incredibly disappointing to me. With some effort on both sides we could have tried to repair this MR and keep that solid foundation for the kids. Now they have to adjust to their new lives while both their parents try to get their feet set again. We moved away from family 3 years ago. We don't know many people here. I guess it's better to move forward now than sit in limbo pretending that things won't change. But this is going to be hard on everyone, really hard. I feel like my W did not realize that, and perhaps she would have made different decisions if she understood those consequences. It is what it is now.

may ~ The timeline isn't clear at this point. There are so many sticking points to work through.

TBH I am back here because my anxiety is through the roof. I completely lose my appetite when I get this anxious and have to force myself to eat. My W may have made all her accusations without legal intentions in the past. But they are there and I have had to take some proactive decisions to protect myself at this point. We are so far apart on custody right now. I see no reason why we can't be going to 50-50 (pandemic aside). She wants to be close to our current 25-75 and maybe offer me a night every 2 weeks.

It's forcing me into difficult decisions, because I have no clue if she intends to use her accusations legally or not.

It seems simple: 50-50 joint custody, support payments per guidance, split assets. The long drawn-out process of slow mediation is not working for me. To give some flavor of how it has gone: My W offered a home "buyout" where we refinance the home under both names and then I stay on the loan for 2 years. Her income? My support payments! We also have spent time discussing if she does work on the house preparing it for sale if she can be compensated with a pedicure.

All this on top of trying to keep performing at work during this pandemic while I live alone... it's a lot. I know many people are struggling. I am incredibly grateful to have L representation at this point to help guide me through this.

[HopeCA]

I wish I had good advice for you. I don’t. But I do have a great deal of empathy. I feel your pain and your confusion and your anxiety. You always offer support and advice to me, so I just wanted to let you know I hear you. This is so hard.
Keep coming back and posting.

[unchien]

LoL Hope I just realized I titled my post the same as yours when I was responding.

Thanks for chiming in. I am struggling. A lot. The isolation of the pandemic is probably contributing to these feelings also, more than I realize.

[Traveler]

feel like my W did not realize that, and perhaps she would have made different decisions if she understood those consequences. It is what it is now.

It sounds like, if you had 20/20 vision and could re-do your situation, you'd have pushed for space, 50% custody, and typical financial support sooner so your ex could see what "divorce" was really like?

The isolation of the pandemic is probably contributing to these feelings also, more than I realize.

What are you doing to stay sane? For me it's been leading hikes (soon to cease) and guitar. Glad to see you posting again, unchien, and back from the archives.

[unchien]

It sounds like, if you had 20/20 vision and could re-do your situation, you'd have pushed for space, 50% custody, and typical financial support sooner so your ex could see what "divorce" was really like?

I think I should have pushed harder for custody and financial separation sooner. Primarily for my own sanity. It's possible the side effect would have been my STBXW seeing what D is really like, I don't know. It is interesting how she seems unprepared for what is coming though.

I also didn't speak up because I was going to MC sessions where she repeatedly used the "A" word up until December. I lived in a lot of fear. It controlled me. I didn't speak up. I don't think she realizes how controlling that was. Now that I have a L she seems surprised I speak for myself. She works in a field that does not take the "A" word lightly. She knew what she was doing, and knew the potential consequences. The MC, had he thought it serious enough, would have by law had to report me. This was not a game.

What are you doing to stay sane? For me it's been leading hikes (soon to cease) and guitar. Glad to see you posting again, unchien, and back from the archives.

Honestly not much the past week. I try to go for a mid-day walk to break up the work routine. I'm intending to try out some yoga (I like the combo of physical exercise and meditation) but struggling right now. I have my kids this weekend so that will keep me busy for a few days.

[Mumin]

Hi unchien thanks fo an update!
Big ups to you for staying strong so long. You will be glad to be able to look back and say you definitely gave it your all!


I just D'd myself. Tough stuff!
Also really wondering (now that papers are signed) how the hell we got here. Reading more on women, infidelity, attachment etc definitely helps. But I just dont get how she could just leave everything and all of us...

Anyway, keep updating! I will as well.

[may22]

Hi U,

you probably already have some yoga resources, but if not, a ton of studios are doing free streaming classes. Core Power has a set of rotating free video classes on their website. I like CPY because (especially the basic classes, CP1s) are always the same and for me it is helpful to have some thing that you can look forward to being consistent every time.

Hang in there!

[IronWill]

Hey U -

Glad to see you are back on the boards - especially if you find your anxiety spiking again.

I don't know if I've posted this to you before, so forgive me if I already have. Remember that WASes or MLCers are on a very extended timeline. So when you speak of 9 months, it really is a drop in the bucket for this thing - and it is very possible that the reason that your W is ill-informed on the process is because she still has no clue what she wants. My sit had been going on for 20 months. That I know of. And my W told me at BD that it had been nearly 1.5 years even before that that she had been "feeling differently". So take that into consideration.

Also - don't forget that this has no basis in logic. If you read your posts, you will see that you are rooted in logic - indeed you are the captain of logic here at DB: you want S, then we have S. You want D, we get D. I get L, you get L, we go to mediation, we sign the papers, we are done and we go our separate ways.

That's logic.

But W is not operating on logic. I think you can see that very clearly.

Here are a few questions to ask yourself: Do you find it odd that W has no clue what is going on? Why do you think that is? Is she behaving like the person you knew before all this went down? Do you think it is based out of spite or vindictiveness?

I say all that not to get you to change the outcome of your sit. It will be what it will be. But I say that to show that your anxiety is elevated because you are still quite attached. And making decisions quickly when you may not be ready for them is probably not going to help matters.

I dont know what the answer for you is, U - you'll have to figure that out for yourself. I know you need to worry about your finances and your kids, that obviously is top priority. But I would caution you to remember that your W is absolutely not thinking with the same logic and reasoning that you are. And I think understanding that will help you a lot going forward.

Food for thought...

Take care buddy - stay safe with all this craziness out there.

[unchien]

Hi IW ~ Good to hear from you!

Here are a few questions to ask yourself: Do you find it odd that W has no clue what is going on? Why do you think that is? Is she behaving like the person you knew before all this went down? Do you think it is based out of spite or vindictiveness?

Point well taken that she is not operating in a rational way at all.

My anxiety is not rooted in attachment to my W. It is rooted in conflict avoidance. There is some upcoming conflict that is likely unavoidable, but will also cause a lot of pain. I don't want to handle things this way, but I am reaching the point where I have no choice. When conflict arises in my life, I instinctively think "I'm in trouble". It's a reaction based in my childhood, and something I continuously work on.

Back to my W for a second... I don't have much empathy anymore. She wants to keep the house, have me be an "every other weekend" dad, and pay for her lifestyle as much as possible. She used the threat of abuse allegations in front of a mandatory reporter to get me to agree to lousy terms when we separated, and then now says she is "confused" if I want something different. I don't think she is vindictive, though -- I think she is in fantasy land. It almost makes things worse, like she is totally oblivious to the fact that accusing someone of abuse MAY make them feel pressured into making different decisions in order to keep the peace, save money, or avoid dragging their kids through a torturously emotional process. It would be easier if I saw her as vindictive.

I understand she is operating on a completely different wavelength. That's fine. I no longer spend time wondering why. I used to spend a lot of time thinking of all the possible reasons (perimenopause, depression, MLC, moving, unresolved issues from childhood). It doesn't matter. Even if I could get over the resentment I am building up, I don't really see her as having the relationship skills I would seek in a new partner.

I also would say that going through this situation has made me rewrite history a little bit as well. Some of the little things that used to be brushed aside look more and more like red flags for the more glaring issues. It's not as simple as "let's just hit rewind and go back to 7 years ago". She would need to change fundamentally just as I have. I imagine for those of us who end up piecing, this is one of the main challenges. Again, I don't really spend time thinking about this.

You asked one other question about whether she behaved like this before the situation. The truth is: She did, towards other people. She does struggle to accept responsibility for her role in interpersonal conflict. She has cut friends out of her life when conflict has arisen. Of course some of this is a positive trait -- she is strong-willed, determined, etc., and those are traits that drew me towards her.

[LH19]

U,

I think sometimes you really do a good job at bsing yourself. You’re w is trying use false abuse charges against you and have you give up more then 50/50 custody. That’s being vindictive!

[IronWill]

Hey U -

I'm going to go against the grain here and say that I actually believe it when WASes say they are "confused" - at the moment they say that word. That is not to absolve them of any wrongdoing or an attempt to whitewash the things they have done, or to suggest that they are confused all the time. It is just what they are feeling at the moment.

I say that because I have done a LOT more reading than posting here over the past few months - past situations that worked out and those that didn't, going all the way back to remnants left from before everything was purged.

It has opened my eyes quite a bit. While everyone's situations seem to be broadly the same, there are subtle but distinct differences in between the age groups - younger couples, middle age ones, and ones near retirement age. I find myself smack dab in the middle age group.

Some of the resources are quite helpful in showing that what is going on in the MLC (or mid life or whatever you care to call it group) is really all about what the WAS is going through. Yes it affects us, and yes we get the brunt of everything, but that happens to an overwhelming majority of us. The allegations, the gaslighting, the blaming, it is all part of a pattern that simply justifies the decisions that the WAS is making. We are collateral damage.

Why do they do this? Well, unless they are truly vindictive and out to get revenge, none of it makes any logical sense. Because it is a phase, a depression, something they have to deal with - and since no person wants to admit they have issues with themselves, it is much much easier and more convenient to blame someone else, to project your problems, and who better to blame than the person that is closest to the fire, right?

Your W is not thinking about anyone other than herself right now. Neither is mine (though recently she seems to be showing the occasional glimpse that she's beginning to think of others again). Its a part of the process, and it is a very long process for those of us who were in long-term Rs. I finally get what the vets were talking about. It is a marathon. And you have to be very very patient.

Anyway - I wrote all that to say that you probably won't understand why your W did what she did for a very long time, if ever. Me too in my sit. And it is also going to come as a giant shock to your W when she finally realizes the decisions that she is making are about to have huge consequences. I was fortunate to have stuck it out at home (even though I felt like bailing) and laid things honestly and directly out on the line with my W. It did scare her some - how much remains to be seen.

Your W hasn't had that jolt yet. I'm sorry for what you are about to go through, but it is all part of the process. That's why I suggested to you that you may want to make sure you are ready to deal with all these legal things. I am learning every day how to cope with my anxiety - it is a messy process and doesnt always work. But I am making less missteps now - and I think you can get to a place like that as well. It does - however - take patience and time.

Ok I've blabbed on long enough. Take care of yourself - and remember the future isn't written. It doesn't have to go badly if you don't want it to. You control you

Stay strong, man

[unchien]

IW ~ Here's a simple version. We moved, away from my W's family. She became distant and depressed, I became frustrated at our lack of connection. There was tension. At some point she fell out of love with me, she has even told me the date. One month later I grab my son's leg in the car to stop him from hitting his sister, and she calls it abuse. A few months later she calls me financially controlling.

I don't care if she ever has the jolt of recognition about how she is justifying her actions to herself. I doubt that she will honestly. Worrying about that is a waste of my energy and time. I need to focus on how to rebuild my life, and stand up for my rights as a father. I don't want it to be this way, but I have no options (other than continuing to accept things the way they are).

The whitewashing, gaslighting, wild narratives -- she can have those. She can project onto me everything she thinks about my inner character - (her words) controlling, disrespectful, untrustworthy, abusive, delusional. It probably does help her feel justified and righteous and that is great for her.

It is awful and I don't like the direction things are going. I know I have control over myself, but I also feel I have no choice. I know you went through this as a kid and it was awful for you. It's also completely reasonable for me to want equal time with my kids.

[IronWill]

Hey U -

Just wanted to make sure my post didn't come off as pushing you to do anything. I hope you didn't take it that way - and I realize I injected some of my situation into what I wrote. I think we all do that because we a have different experiences. At any rate - I apologize if I offended you - that wasn't my intent at all

IW ~ Here's a simple version. We moved, away from my W's family. She became distant and depressed, I became frustrated at our lack of connection. There was tension. At some point she fell out of love with me, she has even told me the date. One month later I grab my son's leg in the car to stop him from hitting his sister, and she calls it abuse. A few months later she calls me financially controlling.

This is all textbook WAS behavior. I never really wrote about the majority of my experiences because they happened before I joined this forum. But I had the same kinds of things happen in my sit. I had a car incident where my W freaked out when I missed an exit, and another one where we were simply going to get groceries where my W and I were arguing and then she freaked out saying she was trapped and didn't feel safe. There are more examples but i think you get the idea. I let my anxiety build over these things and I let them control me for the first 6 months.

That was her reality - however skewed it was. It was a highly emotional time and W was thinking emotionally, not rationally. That doesn't make it reality, though - and all of us - i, you, we all choose how much significance this makes in the rest of our life.

I don't care if she ever has the jolt of recognition about how she is justifying her actions to herself. I doubt that she will honestly. Worrying about that is a waste of my energy and time. I need to focus on how to rebuild my life, and stand up for my rights as a father. I don't want it to be this way, but I have no options (other than continuing to accept things the way they are).

I should have clarified - I meant the "jolt" as in a glimpse of what D'd life would be like. A breaking of the fantasy - the hard cold facts of doing everything alone with no support. My W still hasn't had that awakening of the justifications.

The whitewashing, gaslighting, wild narratives -- she can have those. She can project onto me everything she thinks about my inner character - (her words) controlling, disrespectful, untrustworthy, abusive, delusional. It probably does help her feel justified and righteous and that is great for her.

It is awful and I don't like the direction things are going. I know I have control over myself, but I also feel I have no choice. I know you went through this as a kid and it was awful for you. It's also completely reasonable for me to want equal time with my kids.

I see your anxiety and anger, U - and that's perfectly normal. I won't push you on this - it's good to get that stuff out. I do however gently remind you that in life, there are always other options.

Take care

[unchien]

IW ~ I don't take offense at all, and if I come across as angry that's not my intent.

She is still in fantasy-land and doesn't realize the impact of divorce on her life, and if it wasn't impacting me as a father and financially, I would probably just let things go for awhile. But those 2 impacts are enormous, and my efforts to change them are met with heavy resistance. The more patient I am, the more those things become status quo and precedent and the more resistance I meet. I'm not locked into one particular approach but my options have been narrowing.

My favorite wife freak-out (since you shared some good ones): I came home from the grocery store (before I moved out), and she had asked me to pick up some lettuce for salad. I knew that she didn't like what I had bought the week before (spinach), but she wouldn't tell me what she did like, so I bought 3 kinds. I asked her, "Which one of these do you like?" and she wouldn't answer and then out of the blue she screamed loudly "It's all fine is that enough reassurance for you?!?!"

It's weird living in this world with a person who has a completely difference image of you. Not easy, hang in there bud.

[unchien]

Tomorrow is our 3rd mediation session (this one via teleconference). Things are very tense right now in my situation.
I woke up this morning feeling panicky and overwhelmed, which happens one or two times a week. I hope to address 2 critical items tomorrow, but based on how mediation has gone I worry about making meaningful progress. I fear we will accomplish nothing. To date, we have agreed to work on selling the house, which I guess is progress although given my W could not buy me out I don't understand why we needed 2 full mediation sessions to come to that agreement.

The alternative to mediation, if and when I decide it is not working, will be the more legal route. Given my W's history of accusations, I am absolutely petrified. I am prepared to defend myself for what I believe is right... I also absolutely do not want things to go that way. It seems really pointless and wasteful. It would get ugly and nasty and expensive for no good reason.

I decided to make a thought record, something my IC has encouraged me to do. It helps sort out the distorted thoughts from the rational ones.

It is completely normal for me to feel overwhelmed. I work full-time, I moved out of the marital home, I don't have a large network of friends and family for support. I've been living a temporary life for almost a full year now. I honestly don't know what my life will look like in 3 months, 6 months, a year. I am a flawed person just like everybody else. I'm doing the best I can. Add in the threatening dark clouds always hanging in the air that my STBXW will leverage my apology letters against me, and it's completely normal for me to be fearful at times.

Some people in our situation would simply agree to the reasonable terms I am looking for. I am not unreasonable. Just because I have not been the primary SAH parent doesn't mean I am unworthy of being a 50-50 single father. Sure, it will be challenging, and the life my children would have had with married parents will be different now. That is okay. Perhaps they will become more resilient, more self-reliant, more accepting and tolerant of change. Maybe not.

I don't have my life path fully laid out. Nobody really does. In the meantime, I can take little steps every day to enjoy life. Go for a walk. Clean out the garage. Connect with an old friend.

I've never felt more alone than the past year. This is HARD. It's okay for me to feel overwhelmed sometimes.

[LH19]

U,

Absolutely you are not being unreasonable wanting your children 50% of the time. I would add that your w trying to prevent that from a loving father is criminal.

It is completely normal to feel overwhelmed but those feelings with subside.

Stay strong buddy and take care of yourself.

[unchien]

Thanks LH.

I wish I could find a path forward to get agreement on some of these issues.

Mediation is moving slowly and meandering around. (I understand there is a pandemic, but it was moving slowly beforehand).

I want to avoid a costly legal battle for many reasons.

L's will tell you to word things very strongly and protect yourself, but that is not necessarily conducive to working to an agreement. But if I offer a reasonable solution, then I am starting from a point of weakness (if this turns into a negotiation).

So frustrating.... Arrrgh....

[IronWill]

Hey U -

You definitely have a lot on your plate, that is true. I don't have kids and I find I'm struggling a lot right now. So give yourself credit - you're doing the best you can in a freaking pandemic, no less. It's ok to feel this way.

A while ago you gave me some advice that has stuck with me. I can't remember the exact quote but it went something like this - the universe will present you with whatever lesson it is you are supposed to be learning, until you have learned that lesson.

I find my anxiety mounts when I think of everything I am going through all at once. One of the things I've tried to do is to stop piling it all up, and focus on each problem - one at a time. I make a mental.or physical list of all my problems and then see if there is anything I can do about each of them. If there is - great. If not, I do my best to leave that problem for another time.

Usually when we struggle the hardest - when we have the toughest time - is when we are fighting whatever it is that is going to happen. Maybe the solution hasn't been fully "cooked up" yet or it hasnt had time to "marinate" enough. Call it fate or the universe or god - whatever it is - this "existence" we are all experiencing. At least that's the best I can describe it.

Hang in there man - these are difficult times we are living in - remember to forgive yourself.

Stay strong

[unchien]

Thanks IW. I cribbed that quote about the universe from a podcast, I'll have to look up the exact wording because it was fantastic.

My IC advises filling out thought records in times of extreme anxiety. This has helped me, because usually I can identify the 1 or 2 thoughts that are really driving the anxiety, and the remaining thoughts can be set aside.

Mediation was completely emotionally draining today. I haven't stood up for myself like that this whole time. I feel like collapsing on the ground and sleeping for 12 hours. My STBXW and I haven't gotten into it like that, well, maybe ever. I wasn't angry or shouting, I just said that I don't agree with her characterization of events, of who I am, and that we would end up in court if there is not movement.

One issue is holding everything up. My instincts are to sacrifice on all other issues if we can resolve this one. It would mean we could avoid legal fees and court so sacrificing on financial items would be well worth it.

[LH19]

I believe you may be referring to a Peter Crone quote:

"The universe will present you with people and circumstances to show you where you are not free."

[unchien]

Interesting... I hadn't heard that version of the quote before. I constantly remind myself of this idea.

I woke up today feeling highly anxious and overwhelmed. This is becoming a familiar pattern on some days. On these types of days, I feel I spend most of my time piecing things back together and calming down. Work, focus on the present, deal with things one at a time.

I know from IC that these feelings stem from exaggerated thoughts, worrying about the future, regretting the past, reliving painful events.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm being overly dramatic to think that I am dealing with trauma, or that I am traumatized by this experience. I don't take that word lightly, and don't want to imply that my experiences match what other people have suffered which make my problems pale in comparison.

I'm not a perfect parent. Being told I am impulsive, a danger to my children, that I need treatment, that I am untrustworthy... by the person I loved more than anyone in the world... it beats me down. A lot. I try to draw strength and anchor myself to my own reality. This does not come easy for me. I was raised by a domineering mother whose moods ruled the home. I learned to accept another person's version of the truth as the objective "truth". It is my default mode of operation. It takes considerable mental effort to re-anchor myself and overcome my instincts. This is a process I have been learning the past year.

So on days like this, I feel like I am climbing a tall mountain and I know I will get to the top and feel better within a few hours. And maybe tomorrow morning, I will wake up again at the base of that mountain and have to start over again.

So many doubts about what I want, what's best for me, what's best for my kids, where am I going...

[LH19]

U,

I’m going start by saying that I truly don’t want to discount your feelings and you are certainly entitled to them.

Having said that as far as WWs go you have a walk in the park. Sure she’s an unreasonable lunatic but that’s about the extent of it. There is a guy on here whose w has 3-4 boy friends and he’s being extorted by an unknown person.

As far as parents go I was raised by a narcissist and an avoidant. Pretty one only wanted to talk about himself and the other thought nothing was wrong. Guess what U we don’t get to pick our parents.

I have posted this before that my ex and I hammered Out our D in 15 minutes in the bedroom. Not much to figure out. 50/50 custody non negotiable, split assets 50/50, you take whatever out of the house except my 2 TVs. Boom done. Now I know all divorces are not equal but come on U.

This situation stinks I totally get it but it’s time to push it thru and start to move on.

[unchien]

LH - I know. I have a tendency to wallow, to judge myself harshly, to take on more blame (internally) than I deserve.

[IronWill]

I woke up today feeling highly anxious and overwhelmed. This is becoming a familiar pattern on some days. On these types of days, I feel I spend most of my time piecing things back together and calming down. Work, focus on the present, deal with things one at a time.

I know from IC that these feelings stem from exaggerated thoughts, worrying about the future, regretting the past, reliving painful events.

As I've probably told you before, the two E. Tolle books "The Power of Now" and "A New Earth" have revolutionized the way I see life now. They were an "awakening" moment for me - where I realized that I had spent the first 45 years of my life living totally consumed by worry and thoughts over things I had no control of.

The future hasn't happened yet, and we cannot do anything to change the past. So why do we spend all our time living there and thinking about those times - when all we ever have is this moment - now. That is not to say forget everything that ever happened, or never think about the future, but it is to remind ourselves that this time is all we ever have and to focus our energies on the present moment.

It wasn't an overnight change for me, you don't rid yourself of a 45 plus year habit in one moment, but it is one I remind myself of every single day whenever I feel the surge of anxiety happening. It is remarkable how much that simple reminder and 4 good deep breaths can calm you down.

I'm not a perfect parent. Being told I am impulsive, a danger to my children, that I need treatment, that I am untrustworthy... by the person I loved more than anyone in the world... it beats me down. A lot. I try to draw strength and anchor myself to my own reality. This does not come easy for me. I was raised by a domineering mother whose moods ruled the home. I learned to accept another person's version of the truth as the objective "truth". It is my default mode of operation. It takes considerable mental effort to re-anchor myself and overcome my instincts. This is a process I have been learning the past year.

Yes, you and I are eerily similar here (except that I have no kids). There are no quick fixes here, U - the only way to push past this is to do it, to force yourself to stop thinking in the old patterns. Unfortunately it is a developmental issue from childhood, and I think that is why it takes so much effort to break out of this pattern. It can be extremely frustrating.

On my end, I was subconsciously putting my W into that pattern. She realized it was unhealthy long before I could even understand why I was acting/feeling this way. She did her best to try to get me to see that I needed help. I knew I needed help, and had planned on going to IC when finances were better but I didn't realize how deeply it had impacted my life until her crisis point hit and then it became glaringly obvious.

It takes time and practice. There are no shortcuts and nobody is going to do it for you, or for me. The truth stings sometimes but that's the cards we were dealt.

So many doubts about what I want, what's best for me, what's best for my kids, where am I going...

One day at a time, U. That's how we live life. Try to be the best person we can be each and every day and put one foot in front of the other.

Stay strong

[unchien]

It wasn't an overnight change for me, you don't rid yourself of a 45 plus year habit in one moment, but it is one I remind myself of every single day whenever I feel the surge of anxiety happening. It is remarkable how much that simple reminder and 4 good deep breaths can calm you down.

Thanks IW. I've followed many of those same steps, and they work quite well when my anxiety is at maybe a 6/10 or lower. When it peaks higher, it is tough to wrangle. I feel like there are 10 different "old pattern" thoughts I need to address one by one via the techniques I've learned to disarm them.

Examples:

- This is all my fault.
- I'm incapable of doing this.
- I can't do this on my own.
- I'm a wreck/mess.
- My kids are suffering through my actions.

and on and on and on... Throughout the day I gradually work these items down, but it's emotionally exhausting. I dread waking up sometimes.

On my end, I was subconsciously putting my W into that pattern. She realized it was unhealthy long before I could even understand why I was acting/feeling this way. She did her best to try to get me to see that I needed help. I knew I needed help, and had planned on going to IC when finances were better but I didn't realize how deeply it had impacted my life until her crisis point hit and then it became glaringly obvious.

My W definitely fits a pattern of being controlling, insecure about certain aspects of her life, and likes to lead and set the direction.

It's hard to say if I pushed her in that direction. She has always had pieces of that, even during our best times. Perhaps our interactions cemented things or made them more extreme. Maybe my fear of conflict made things worse.

I have GAD. Anxiety and FOA/NGS pushed me at times to feeling desperate about my MR. That scared my W. Even though her academic background is in mental health, I don't think she ever understood because she handles her own issues differently. I think she saw me as dangerous and unpredictable, whereas I just wanted to talk and make an effort to work on the MR.

This was an anxious-avoidant dynamic at its worst.

I felt completely ignored when we moved. I worked and made the money, came home, and my job was to assist with child-care and the housework. I had zero life outside of work. I didn't stay at work late, I didn't go anywhere on the weekends. W seemed depressed and tired and snippy all the time. She didn't want to move from hometown, but financially we could not make it work. W and I would go out to dinner once every couple months. We had a SSM. We would watch TV at night, share a drink, and go to sleep. When I had time off work, we went back to our previous hometown to visit W's family. Sometimes W would go by herself and I would watch the children for the weekend. I tried to do things to keep her happy. I also was at times passive-aggressive in my responses. She saw me as unhappy, I saw her as unhappy.

Incidentally, anxiety is not some catch-all excuse. I don't see it as "Oh I have anxiety I just can't help it." It's my responsibility to manage it, get it under control, and make sure my actions and words are measured. I've made a lot of progress. I also know it will always be there, always something I need to work on. I know that anxiety can lead people to make some truly awful decisions. I made some decisions I regret, but I also have compassion for myself and recognize I am not the monster I have been portrayed to be. Pulling the car over to talk to my W at night was a regrettable and poor decision - I had zero intent of any harm. Does that make it right? Absolutely not, I should have respected her need for feeling safe and approached her at a different time. She also had shut me down for months and I hadn't yet found DB. I'm not sure by then if we could have corrected course.

Again, the anxious-avoidant dynamic, at its worst.

I wish we could have just talked. That's the thing that hangs me up. Just once, have an honest conversation, where I could at least attempt to explain my perspective.

I see other sitches on here with anxious LBS's. I can see how they want to reach out to the WAS and talk. Things can go so wrong... the avoidant's desire to connect can be seen as desperation, emotional instability, dangerous, abusive.

The person I am now would not have made so many of these decisions. It's possible our MR would have corrected course, if I could transport myself back in time with the lessons I have learned. But I could not have become the person I am now without going through this process.

[SteveS]

The person I am now would not have made so many of these decisions. It's possible our MR would have corrected course, if I could transport myself back in time with the lessons I have learned. But I could not have become the person I am now without going through this process.

Isn't that the rub though? It's only now that you could see all of the errors of your ways. I think that realization actually makes it worse, if I'm being honest, because it wasn't some core incompatibility, it was something addressable all along.

But the good news! There's a great quote in the NGS book, which basically says that once people come to grips with NGS and come out the other side, they're often the best (second) husbands in the world. So you're right - you're not the person you were six months ago, nine months ago. You're not going to repeat the same mistakes, and great things are ahead.

[unchien]

I do like the 2nd husband quote.

Frankly my recent emotional tailspin is due to the legal process moving and my kids. It's fear of the future, and insecurity about my parenting (which every parent has at some level, I don't care who you are). It's not due to feeling the loss of my W. I can't remember the last time we shared a genuine moment of happiness that wasn't tinged with tension.

Disappointment is the primary feeling I have when thinking about the MR. We had something pretty great for awhile. Our kids could have had something really great. We were financially set up great. If the two of us could have just worked harder at it, or something. I don't know. I know I need to let it go, there's no magic time machine to go back.

I built something for 15 years. It fell apart. Now I'm left with the scraps and need to start building again. This time, I have 3 kids, estranged parents, huge support payments, and I'm living in a new place where I barely know anybody. It's going to be hard. Life is short, I only have one life, might as well embrace the challenge.

[LH19]

U,

“What happened happened and it couldn’t happen any other way because it didn’t”~Peter Crone~

If anything we recently learned is that everyone’s future is uncertain.

You are going to have to get emotionally stronger to move forward.

Keep pushing U.

[wooba]

I built something for 15 years. It fell apart. Now I'm left with the scraps and need to start building again. This time, I have 3 kids, estranged parents, huge support payments, and I'm living in a new place where I barely know anybody. It's going to be hard. Life is short, I only have one life, might as well embrace the challenge.

Life takes unexpected turns sometimes. You are no longer the same person you were at BD, you are better and stronger. That family fell apart, but now you have the tools to rebuild something better. It is difficult, life is not easy when you want to live a life with intention and purpose. But just like you said, we only have one life. We owe it to ourselves to keep pushing, keep fightning, and surviving.

Just want to drop by and show support. You got this.

[unchien]

Thanks wooba for the support. It means a lot.

Intellectually I know what's going on. I have this internalized toxic shame stemming from my childhood (CEN) combined with NGS. I "default" to assuming things are my fault. I doubt my decisions. It's really easy for me to feel like maybe I should just be an every-other-weekend Dad, maybe I'm not good enough or capable, maybe my kids really would be better off.

I realize this is the negativity and internalized shame talking. I can keep living that way, and make myself miserable, or fight through it.

I can overcome these feelings with effort, I just wish I would learn to "default" to a healthier position from the get-go.

[Traveler]

It's really easy for me to feel like maybe I should just be an every-other-weekend Dad, maybe I'm not good enough or capable, maybe my kids really would be better off.

I realize this is the negativity and internalized shame talking. I can keep living that way, and make myself miserable, or fight through it.

That you're concerned about not being a good enough, but not using that desire for unobtainable perfectionism as an excuse to throw your hands up and not try, indicates you'll probably be a great at it.

I can overcome these feelings with effort, I just wish I would learn to "default" to a healthier position from the get-go.

You seem like an analytical guy. You probably can guesstimate how many times you (or I) will need to overcome a default tendency with effort before they become skills we've completely mastered.

[may22]

Hi U,

I'm sure this is ridiculously difficult for you right now. Remember you are a good dad, a good person, you have challenges in front of you but you will get through them with thoughtfulness and compassion. Your kids are lucky to have you. Hang in there.

May

[unchien]

Thanks CW and may for the supportive words.

I keep reminding myself... only one person is going to dig me out of this.

I have one overwhelming fear - going to court over the kids. I think it will make things with STBXW, and with the kids, truly awful. We are clearly on track for this to happen, even though I continue to make efforts to resolve things in other ways. This is my nightmare scenario. I have been offered compromises such as "we can revisit 50-50 in a year and a half" or "we can have a mental health professional help determine what's best" rather than what I think is fair, which is a ramp-up plan, agreed upon right now, so we can put everything to rest. I'm willing to negotiate the time with the kids, but I want to close this sooner rather than later.

I don't trust my STBXW to let things go. I spent 6 months in MC2 last summer trying to validate, listen, have a PMA, etc. For the first few months, I still hoped to work on the MR. I had my kids stay with me, and nothing of consequence whatsoever happened. And after 6 months, my STBXW said she trusted me 10%, instead of 0%, and asked me to write an update on my progress (seriously... and I declined). I need a written agreement that spells everything out. I can't live under her suspicion. If I raise my voice with my kids, if she doesn't like how I handle situations with them... will she drag things out longer? I have no trust.

I've been trying to figure out, other than the obvious factors (looming custody battle, the isolation of a global pandemic), why am I struggling so much lately.

I've accepted our MR is over. I've accepted I played a big part. So did she, but I don't focus on that much anymore. We reached a point where she was unwilling to work on her part, and that is that.

But at the same time... I recognize I haven't fully turned my head forward. There is a comfort in married life. There is always a partner there, even when there is discord. It always felt like there was a safety net there. I never ever considered us as candidates for a D. No matter how bad things got, whether it was my parents cutting me off, or challenges with having 3 small children, or going to MC1, I felt that things would somehow resolve. I took it for granted. But it felt... good. Even while our relationship was distant and cold, I always felt like there was somebody there.

That comfort was not entirely healthy. I get that. It's a sign of codependency. I had valid relationship needs. But I miss it. Full admission. I don't miss my STBXW, but I miss that life.

Maybe it reminded me of my childhood, having a strong-minded woman run my life so I didn't have to.

I'm not used to being alone, having to pull myself up emotionally. I need to be strong. It's either that, or be miserable. Nobody is going to save me.

[LH19]

U,

I’m really sorry you’re struggling these days. Your updates are getting hard to read.

You don’t negotiate with terrorists. 50/50 non-negotiable. If you go to court you go to court.

You have to find a way to move forward.

[Ginger1]

Why reason is there for the courts to not grant you 50/50? Does she have grounds?

Because if she doesn’t, it shouldn’t be a problem and there is not need for a battle, even if she fights it.

[unchien]

You don’t negotiate with terrorists. 50/50 non-negotiable. If you go to court you go to court.

My L sent a partial settlement offer last week to try to resolve this issue. It is completely reasonable. I assume it will be rejected or just expire, but I'm trying to make headway.

I understand now why so many dads back down. I'm not going to do that.

It helps to come here and describe what's going on with me emotionally. I write it out and recognize that I need to be stronger and more independent and move on.

[LH19]

I understand now why so many dads back down.

I have nothing but compassion for you but WTF does this even mean? What man backs down from spending time with his children? If it’s not to piss of the W then that’s exactly why they are in this situation in the first place.

Sometimes I’m ashamed to be a man.

[unchien]

Why reason is there for the courts to not grant you 50/50? Does she have grounds?

Because if she doesn’t, it shouldn’t be a problem and there is not need for a battle, even if she fights it.

I believe I could get 50/50 in court. I just don't want to go there.

There are reasons I feel I have had to prepare a protective L defense just in case. Anything goes in family court. My W has used troubling language in the past 18 months about my parenting.

[unchien]

I understand now why so many dads back down.

I have nothing but compassion for you but WTF does this even mean? What man backs down from spending time with his children? If it’s not to piss of the W then that’s exactly why they are in this situation in the first place.

Sometimes I’m ashamed to be a man.

One of my friends/mentors during this process has 3 kids and went through D about 6 years ago.

When he first D'ed, he agreed to 3 weekends out of 4. He worked FT in a demanding job, figured he got plenty of time with his kids on the weekends. Three years later, his XW came back wanting 100% custody. She accused him of abuse (making calls to CPS, etc.). He got a L who convinced him he should go for 50/50, which he never even wanted in the first place. He won, and now says it's the best thing he ever did.

He never would have gone for 50/50. He would have accepted his weekend role. I think many dads do this. Maybe I'm wrong. Definitely a generation ago, maybe not so much now.

And yes, you are right that I did a lot of stuff in the past to avoid pissing off my W. And that's partially why I'm here.

[LH19]

U,

No it still goes on now U but most of it is by choice. I’ve had 25-30 first dates over the last year and a half and off hand I think maybe 2 shared 50/50 custody. The girl I’m dating now has 90 percent custody. Just blows my mind that men are willing to give up time with their children. If that’s their choice then no judgment. If they are backing down then they are pathetic in my opinion.

[unchien]

LH,

I see what you mean.

I absolutely want 50/50. I also recognize it's not going to be easy. And until I do it, I won't really know what it's like.

[Traveler]

And yes, you are right that I did a lot of stuff in the past to avoid pissing off my W. And that's partially why I'm here.

I bet it will feel amazing when you demand and get your 50/50 of the kids and only give away the money she's entitled to. It sounds like that day's coming soon, even if the courts are slow just now.

[LITB]

U,

I have never posted to you, however you need to go for 50/50 custody with your children. They are only children once and their childhood will go fast. You have that right as their father.

I'd rather give it my best shot and fail, than allow fear to cause me to make a choice I'd regret. To me, your time with your children is priceless. It seems that you fear dragging your kids through the legal mud. I get it. That being said, they will know how important they are to you by doing what is right.

[unchien]

It sounds like that day's coming soon, even if the courts are slow just now.

They are completely shut down right now, except for items requiring urgent attention.

I'd rather give it my best shot and fail, than allow fear to cause me to make a choice I'd regret.

Thanks for chiming in. This is exactly my mindset. I have a lot of fear, but I can't let it control this decision.

[LITB]

In the previous page of this thread, you mentioned that your W is controlling and also that you feared conflict. What I know about a WAS, is that they will use fear to their advantage.

Not only would you be doing the right thing by being aggressive in your pursuit of 50/50 custody, but you would also be doing a significant 180 from what was the norm in your MR.

These situation are like a bully dynamic. The WAS plays the role of the bully and the LBS plays the role of the target. Once the target stands up to the bully, the dynamic changes and the bullying usually stops. The target might get their tails handed to them, but they just gained respect.

[unchien]

LITB ~ You are right about that dynamic. It's so ingrained now that I think it won't change overnight.

I am completely fed up and yet trying to remain polite and business-like, not letting my emotions shine through. I made a proposal a few days ago that would get us to 50/50 by fall and avoid court, while leaving room to mediate on other issues, and my W's response was to plead to the mediator about how hard her life is right now. The mediator seems annoyed that I made an offer outside mediation but so be it.

W wants to revisit custody down the road, ramp up work really slowly, and claims this is all best for the kids, we are away from friends and family, this is so devastating, etc etc etc. I hear these things and sometimes want to pull my hair out: "You wanted this divorce! What did you expect?!"

I know it's standard WAS script. The more I hear it, the more it helps me detach from the craziness.

[unchien]

Journal ~

Can't post much here about details of my situation at the moment. Things are not really moving, but there is a lot of pressure for things to move in some direction.

I'm feeling really strong emotionally, but my kids leave today for a few days so there is a tinge of sadness. I could be stronger, especially when they are gone, but for me, I'm feeling great. This weekend we all started riding bikes and scooters around the block for the first time, rather than just in our driveway -- 2 miles yesterday! Things always feel good when they are here. I know I'm a good dad.

I've learned a few lessons this last year:

1. Never, ever, ever, ever write a letter. No apology letter, no love letter, no outpouring of earnestness. It can and probably will be used against you, either emotionally or possibly even legally.

2. If you aren't willing to walk away from a relationship if your needs aren't met, you need to work on yourself. Doesn't matter if you have 10 kids together and have been married for 30 years. You can be in the happiest MR possible today, but you always need to be willing to stand up to have your needs (assuming they are reasonable) met.

3. If you can't get in touch with your own values and feelings, you will forever be susceptible to feelings of self-doubt. Others, intentionally or not, will undermine your self-confidence in your decision making. You are susceptible to gaslighting. You can easily get sucked into a vortex of negativity and will struggle to detach and self-differentiate. You will start to make mistakes -- thinking you are DB'ing when in fact you are continuing to perpetuate a lousy situation. Enlist support if needed to help you, but don't "poison the well" - seek 1 or 2 trusted friends (ideally not family), go to IC, seek legal counsel (discreetly).

4. Find out what works for you. It's different for everybody. If something doesn't work, ditch it and try something else. You will find things that work for you. It won't happen overnight. Don't give up on the process.

5. Validation can be a dangerous technique if used unskillfully, depending on your situation (especially if you are not detached). Validation can be mistaken as acceptance. Personally, I wish I had used active listening (here is what I hear you saying) rather than validation (I can understand how you could feel that way), given the dynamics of my situation at the time.

#3 is a biggie for me. My W, MC2, heck even our mediator - all of them have had me, at moments, doubting my self-worth, my confidence in my own decisions. Anyone who has read my posts over time has probably been, at times, ripping their hair out hearing me vacillate and question myself

[LH19]

1. Never, ever, ever, ever write a letter. No apology letter, no love letter, no outpouring of earnestness. It can and probably will be used against you, either emotionally or possibly even legally.

Amen to that brother! That $hit only works in the movies.

2. If you aren't willing to walk away from a relationship if your needs aren't met, you need to work on yourself. Doesn't matter if you have 10 kids together and have been married for 30 years. You can be in the happiest MR possible today, but you always need to be willing to stand up to have your needs (assuming they are reasonable) met.

Yes and in a true meaningful relationship both people will bee happy to meet each other's needs.

3. If you can't get in touch with your own values and feelings, you will forever be susceptible to feelings of self-doubt. Others, intentionally or not, will undermine your self-confidence in your decision making. You are susceptible to gaslighting. You can easily get sucked into a vortex of negativity and will struggle to detach and self-differentiate. You will start to make mistakes -- thinking you are DB'ing when in fact you are continuing to perpetuate a lousy situation. Enlist support if needed to help you, but don't "poison the well" - seek 1 or 2 trusted friends (ideally not family), go to IC, seek legal counsel (discreetly).

U be careful blaming your perpetuating lousy sitch it on DB. If you never moved out you would be D'd by now and have a $hit ton more money in your pocket.

4. Find out what works for you. It's different for everybody. If something doesn't work, ditch it and try something else. You will find things that work for you. It won't happen overnight. Don't give up on the process.

Exactly!

5. Validation can be a dangerous technique if used unskillfully, depending on your situation (especially if you are not detached). Validation can be mistaken as acceptance. Personally, I wish I had used active listening (here is what I hear you saying) rather than validation (I can understand how you could feel that way), given the dynamics of my situation at the time.

Can you give some examples of how it became dangerous?

[unchien]

3. If you can't get in touch with your own values and feelings, you will forever be susceptible to feelings of self-doubt. Others, intentionally or not, will undermine your self-confidence in your decision making. You are susceptible to gaslighting. You can easily get sucked into a vortex of negativity and will struggle to detach and self-differentiate. You will start to make mistakes -- thinking you are DB'ing when in fact you are continuing to perpetuate a lousy situation. Enlist support if needed to help you, but don't "poison the well" - seek 1 or 2 trusted friends (ideally not family), go to IC, seek legal counsel (discreetly).

U be careful blaming your perpetuating lousy sitch it on DB. If you never moved out you would be D'd by now and have a $hit ton more money in your pocket.

I made a ton of mistakes, I agree with you. I also, by being beaten on the head repeatedly with hard lessons, am finally coming around to realizing this is my life and nobody else's. I am going to live according to my values, and I'm going to feel good about that, regardless of the blowback I get from others, because I know I'm coming from a place of good intentions and a constant eye towards self-improvement.

5. Validation can be a dangerous technique if used unskillfully, depending on your situation (especially if you are not detached). Validation can be mistaken as acceptance. Personally, I wish I had used active listening (here is what I hear you saying) rather than validation (I can understand how you could feel that way), given the dynamics of my situation at the time.

Can you give some examples of how it became dangerous?

Validating the feelings stemming from false accusations.

When we went to MC2 last summer, I had to have a separate 1:1 call with the counselor because I felt teamed up on. He told me that I had agreed that I had done all these horrible things. I said, "I was validating her feelings, I was not *agreeing* with her!" "Oh" he said.

Keep in mind counselors are mandatory reporters. This person's license is on the line if they believe something worth reporting happened and they fail to do so. He never bothered to check the facts with me, in a potentially legally fraught situation.

So yeah, I probably shouldn't have tried to use validation... I was not skillful enough, nor was it appropriate for that situation.

[unchien]

My situation has really devolved at the moment. I don't want to go into the details, but it's possible if not likely this is going to get expensive and legal. I probably won't post much other than possibly feelings journals for awhile.

Compared to even a week or two ago, I'm feeling much stronger. As a child, I learned to cater to my M's sometimes extremely negative moods. I suppressed my emotional needs, and I developed a sense of humor as a way to compensate. I learned by being agreeable, things would be tolerable and the people around me would be happier. And as a result, I've been walked on several times in my life. I accepted lousy treatment in past relationships. I've walked on eggshells around my W (which is a NGS signature move and can be very destructive to MRs). Eventually I wanted to fix things so badly that I wrote these over-the-top apology letters a year ago that completely eviscerated myself, hoping to keep the peace. I look back and cannot believe how willing I was to just lay down and admit to being a fundamentally awful person, because I thought it would save my MR.

Now I'm faced with this situation with tons of blowback. From my WAW. From my parents who cut me off 3 years ago (but now are making clumsy attempts to reconnect now that they've heard about my D). From the mediator. A lot of people suggesting I am unreasonable or flawed.

And... I feel centered. I feel calm. I just want equal time with my kids. I deserve it. I feel centered in my values and I don't care if people object.

[LH19]

And... I feel centered. I feel calm. I just want equal time with my kids. I deserve it. I feel centered in my values and I don't care if people object.

This may be the best paragraphed you have ever posted. Every good parent deserves an opportunity to have equal parenting time with their children if they so choose. Stick to your guns U!

[Traveler]

I probably won't post much other than possibly feelings journals for awhile.

I get you may not want your ex-wife to know full details of your legal strategy, but consider whether her reading roughly how it's going would present problems. e.g., "I need to get to 50/50 within a short period of time, her attorney says only 67/33." We're here whatever you choose to share. My experience with a divorce where one side went expensive (>$100,000) and the other didn't spend as much (<$15,000) on a court battle was that the extra money didn't buy so much. Courts like to work towards guidelines, norms. If you have a good attorney they should be able to help guide you from here to 50/50.

And... I feel centered. I feel calm. I just want equal time with my kids. I deserve it. I feel centered in my values and I don't care if people object.

Absolutely getting to 50/50 is a great goal! Keep it up, Unchien. You've got this.

[unchien]

I get you may not want your ex-wife to know full details of your legal strategy, but consider whether her reading roughly how it's going would present problems. e.g., "I need to get to 50/50 within a short period of time, her attorney says only 67/33."

I'm not sure I follow.

She wants to revisit the possibility of 50/50 a year from now, "see how it goes", etc. Why would I agree to that with somebody who has shown no willingness to budge, and continues to imply I am unsafe with my children? I have zero trust that she will change her mind. What I've proposed is we ramp-up to 50/50 in the future, but it must be an agreement to be at 50/50 at some future time. I'm happy to negotiate the timeframe, but I won't kick the can down the road on the fundamental point that we need an agreement to get to 50/50... that's just crossing my fingers that she will change her mindset in the future, and so far, over a year into our situation, after 6 months of counseling to try to get to some base level of trust, she has not budged.

[Traveler]

I'm not sure I follow.

Hi Unchien, I was referring to, "I probably won't post much other than possibly feelings." Post whatever makes you comfortable, I was proposing sharing the status of the case wasn't likely put you at any disadvantage. Your attorney is of course the key person to trust for legal details and strategy.

She wants to revisit the possibility of 50/50 a year from now, "see how it goes", etc. Why would I agree to that with somebody

Why would you agree to that.. with anyone? You almost certainly should get 50/50 custody sometime soon! It sounds like you care a lot about your children and being a good father.

The opposite of agreeing isn't an expensive battle. The "expensive" bit triggered my curiosity as it sounded like what many worry about when they start working the system, but my experience of divorce cases--admittedly, limited to self and family and friends--is that the person seeking guidelines amount pays little compared to the person seeking something different. Courts like 50/50 and paths to 50/50. I've seen that even when there's been past criminal or abusive behavior--given time without incidents and counseling. I wonder if your attorney set that expectation that defending your basic rights as a father would be expensive? You don't have to answer me, just my two cents to consider.

[unchien]

Got it. Yup, I'm aware it's going to be expensive. Or, my STBXW could agree to a reasonable plan and we could mediate the rest.

[LITB]

U,

I am glad that you are going for 50/50. It might be expensive from a financial standpoint, but it would be more costly to not have as much time with your children as possible.

All the best!!

[Cadet]

This is written to someone who was posting on this thread

I am posting this for you as one of your posts did not conform to the rules of this forum and was deleted by a moderator.
See the bolded part





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[unchien]

Journal ~

My W was texting me yesterday that she was confused about my position. She does this frequently - "I'm so confused." My L sent her a partial settlement offer the week before that made my position very clear. I was frustrated with the pace of mediation and the topics of focus, so I felt like presenting an offer that, if accepted, would allow us to continue to mediate the remaining items.

She acted as if I had made a "take it or leave it" offer and there was no room for her to respond. She acted as if making an offer outside of mediation was a transgression. The mediator seems upset. My position is that I am trying to resolve issues. My offer was more than fair, and she could have responded with a counter.

This has a bit of a gaslighting feel to it. I recognize the pattern that she refuses to see her role in the problem. Accusing me of involving lawyers, making this expensive, not having the kids' best interest in mind. I realize now she has rarely (I would say "never" but I try to avoid absolutes) been a person to own up to her role in relationship conflict, whether with me, her family, her friends, my family. If you asked about her role in our MR failure, I suspect she would say "I'm sorry that I agreed to move 3 years ago" or "I'm sorry I didn't push UC to get help earlier".

I ended up having a (very careful) text exchange yesterday to make my position clear. She said I "didn't let her" write a written offer (WTH, did I withhold a pencil?) -- to be clear, she had offered some plan where we revisit custody in a year (or at least that's what it sounded like to me) at which point I said "no". But I stated on the text exchange that she is welcome to make any offer.

Why am I bothering to do this? Well, I don't want her "confusion" to lead us down the road of spending 6 figures in court, provided we can avoid that with some simple negotiations. She now states that 50-50 is her long-term goal as well (I'm sure there will be contingencies if she offers this, but we will see). I have to keep in mind that 6 months ago she asked if I would let her move away with the kids -- I know how she views the importance of my role in our childrens' lives. Whether I get it or not, she does not view 50-50 as best for the kids.

I can't share more. Other things are going on and I'm comfortable with my L's strategy. I just felt like it was worth making it clear that my W can make an offer at any time and we can move things through. Mediation is not working because there is little respect for my needs (as I see it). Trying to navigate this minefield without driving myself crazy problem-solving. We'll get there soon enough, even if we spend down our futures to get there.

[Traveler]

Hi Unchien,

Glad to hear you're moving down the path to 50/50!

"The mediator seems upset." Any idea why? Didn't you make it clear more than once in mediation that only a path to 50/50 not contingent on your wife's feelings works for you, and mediation was taken long to get there? "I don't agree with her characterization of events, of who I am, and that we would end up in court if there is not movement." I believe you also made a personal offer outside mediation before your lawyer sent an offer. It's exciting seeing you take action to change things!

[unchien]

The mediator is a retired judge and he thought I was circumventing the process with a demanding offer instead of following the mediation process. Of course he also does not know the full history of the last year plus - my apology letters meant to save our MR (before I found DB), the implicit threats about my parenting, etc. Medistors technically have no power and I’m trying to work towards a solution without this dragging out interminably.

[unchien]

Journal ~

This next phase is going to be tough. Costs are skyrocketing. Tensions are running high. And there is a bit of a ticking clock where things may get worse on that front soon. Ugh.

I'll have my kids for a few hours today. Usually I feel a whole lot better when they are around, although sometimes my oldest is wound up during these short visits. Sometimes he is moody, or lets me know he thinks everything is my fault. I know they are big feelings, he is only 8, and he is going through a lot. I try to just listen and be there for him. So much weight on his shoulders, poor kid.

I continue to struggle with this combination of my situation and the quarantine. I can see how I need to really double-down on self-care -- keep busy, find some things to do outside my comfort zone (maybe a daily yoga session?) I find myself stressed out about tangential things sometimes, things that would normally not stress me out (for instance, what will I make for dinner when my kids come over, will S8 be upset, etc.). I know it's the anxiety tornado - if I can separate out the one or two driving thoughts, I can disarm the tangential ones.

I'm going to have to pull myself up and get through this way or another. I am trying. But I feel I am spending a lot of time and energy flailing.

[rooskers]

Sometimes he is moody, or lets me know he thinks everything is my fault. I know they are big feelings, he is only 8, and he is going through a lot. I try to just listen and be there for him. So much weight on his shoulders, poor kid.

In the coming months and years he will be looking for consistency. He will want to see evidence that no matter what happens you will love him. He wants to know that you will not give up on him even when he gets angry or blames you for everything.

I'm going to have to pull myself up and get through this way or another. I am trying. But I feel I am spending a lot of time and energy flailing.

Unchien I have to say that I have admired what you have done. I did not take the route you did but divorced immediately and now have been going through the same thing you are (accusations of abuse, etc...) but luckily I have the divorce decree to fall back on. You tried your best and I think everyone here has been giving you good advice but it leans heavily on DB methods. I personally believe your wife and my ex require methods in addition to DB. They are actively out to hurt us with false accusations, gaslighting, using children as weapons against us, attack emotional weaknesses, and threats to make us hurt. This is not just about leaving us but about exacting revenge from something that they experienced earlier in life, and we are the ones it will be inflicted upon. I don't think this applies to most situations here at least to this extreme but your wife is highly abusive and you need to fight for your children and protect yourself as much as possible. I would contact her as little as possible and only through email, document everything, if you can do it through mediator or lawyer do that. Any contact with her will be used against you or will be manipulated in such a way by her as to harm you. I tried to give my ex her mail during a pick up and the next day got a formal email accusing me of abusing her during the exchange. I never went within 6 ft of her and have witnesses, and thank goodness I did, or I would have been hauled off to jail. I would not try to negotiate with her outside of mediation or through your lawyer, contact through email only, careful what you say about her around anyone because it will be found out by her, do not I repeat do not agree to anything less than 50/50 custody immediately. No validation because that will be used against you, use active listening to make sure you can clarify what she is saying and nothing else. Start researching parallel parenting because unless she makes changes to herself she is a danger to you and your children. Work on yourself in IC and look at books that talk about women abusing men, setting boundaries, and protecting oneself against toxic people. This is not to see yourself as a victim but instead will help you create healthy boundaries to protect yourself from falling into the same trap. Work on methods to reduce your anxiety. Learn the love languages of your children and realize you are an amazing father. I know you are probably doing most if not all of these things but sometimes it is nice to have another tell you.

[unchien]

Thanks rooskers. I agree on so many of your points, in particular using Active Listening rather than Validation. It is nice to see all this advice spelled out clearly in a single post. I try to handle my business the way you describe, but reminders are very helpful.

I feel like W wants to engage in "truth battles" constantly. DB advice would be to let it go, ignore her narrative, it doesn't matter. Unfortunately when it comes to mediation and legal proceedings, some of these issues are critical to address. There is a slipperiness to her version of the truth. If I partially agree, it is taken as full agreement. My version of history is questioned, dissected, etc.

This is why I am insistent on agreements being formally documented and not informal one-sentence agreements. I don't trust. It's business to me, and like any business arrangement, I want it formalized. Nothing personal. It is absolutely exhausting and I find her extremely difficult to work with. Her attitude is that I am the one making all sorts of changes and requests (because she currently doesn't work, lives in an unaffordable house, and refuses to agree to 50-50 long-term, so the changes do need to happen primarily on her side). I hear things like "I'm trying to respect your needs and everything you want" yet she will not budge on the one item that matters to me above all else.

I have a few books on how to deal with toxic people (from dealing with issues with my FOO). You are right about the advice being the same here. Boundaries in particular. And letting the small stuff go.

I imagine we will be parallel parenting for awhile. Maybe long-term we will settle into something healthier for the children. I certainly want that. But I will not be doing so at the expense of my rights as a father.

Lately for pick-up/drop-offs we barely look at each other. W always has sunglasses on. Little words are exchanged. I try to remain pleasant. Things are tense, everyone is on edge, and it might get worse soon. It's all so disappointing to me -- we have 3 beautiful children who are doing an incredible job adapting. We both love them very much. They are truly great kids. If she could move past the idea that I am some abusive unrepentant monster I think we could all start to move on and heal. Otherwise this is heading down a long, drawn-out, expensive, emotionally challenging road that seems completely unnecessary to me.

I look back at the apology letters I wrote and I am horrified by my willingness to just completely emasculate myself for the sake of saving a MR which was absolutely lousy at that point.

[unchien]

Journal ~

I feel like this custody issue is holding up my ability to move on and heal.

I wonder if I should feel so weighed down by it. Or if I am falsely assuming once this issue is resolved, I will feel much better. It certainly feels that way to me now.

Implicit threats about withholding the children if I don't update W what we are doing. Refusing thus far to agree to a long-term 50-50 arrangement. Constant allusions to "the past" and the letters I wrote.

I can't live and parent like this. It is unreasonable.

- If my kids are playing with a toy sword at my house, I am worried.

- If one of my kids falls riding their bike and skins their knee, I am worried.

- If one of my kids asks for me to snuggle them in bed, I am worried.

- If my kids misbehave, I am worried if I come across too strongly in addressing the situation.

I know some of this is irrational fear. 95% of this stuff is inconsequential. But fundamentally, I am in a legally precarious situation where any little thing may be used against me. It s*cks being constantly worried. I want to start healing with my kids and adjusting to our new lives.

My W will jump back and forth between 2 reasons to refuse 50-50:

1. allegations about "the past"

2. "what's best for the kids" - i.e., minimal changes to their lives (W keeps house, W works as little as possible, kids stay in all their activities which minimizes my weekday parenting time)

When I refute one, she points to the other. If I address #1 she says I am "in denial" and she believes long term I can be redeemed. If I address #2 she says the kids need "stability".

Anyways, I am continuing to press and not backing down. I just hope that we can resolve this soon and that my panicky feelings subside.

[LH19]

I feel like this custody issue is holding up my ability to move on and heal..

Could be but I think other things are holding you back.

I wonder if I should feel so weighed down by it. Or if I am falsely assuming once this issue is resolved, I will feel much better. It certainly feels that way to me now..

Falsely assuming

Implicit threats about withholding the children if I don't update W what we are doing. Refusing thus far to agree to a long-term 50-50 arrangement. Constant allusions to "the past" and the letters I wrote..

I wish you would have nipped this in the bud a long time ago.

I can't live and parent like this. It is unreasonable..

It's very unreasonable and again I wish you wouldn't have aloud it to start.

- If my kids are playing with a toy sword at my house, I am worried..

Because you're afraid of your Wife

- If one of my kids falls riding their bike and skins their knee, I am worried..

Because you're afraid of your Wife

- If one of my kids asks for me to snuggle them in bed, I am worried..

Because you're afraid of your Wife

- If my kids misbehave, I am worried if I come across too strongly in addressing the situation..

Because you're afraid of your Wife

I know some of this is irrational fear. 95% of this stuff is inconsequential. But fundamentally, I am in a legally precarious situation where any little thing may be used against me. It s*cks being constantly worried. I want to start healing with my kids and adjusting to our new lives..

If you're innocent of any wrong doing there is nothing to worry about.

1. allegations about "the past".

Which are all BS right?

2. "what's best for the kids" - i.e., minimal changes to their lives (W keeps house, W works as little as possible, kids stay in all their activities which minimizes my weekday parenting time).

Best for the kids to spend as much time with their dad as possible

When I refute one, she points to the other. If I address #1 she says I am "in denial" and she believes long term I can be redeemed. If I address #2 she says the kids need "stability"..

You can't let her bully you

Anyways, I am continuing to press and not backing down. I just hope that we can resolve this soon and that my panicky feelings subside.

I wish you the best U.

[LITB]

Yes, what LH said. You going for 50/50 custody of your children is not dependent on how your W feels or what she thinks. Right now, she is not on your team, therefore she has no say in you pursuing 50/50.

Do your best not to worry about your W. She will be upset, but that is not your problem.

[unchien]

LH ~ What else do you think is holding me back?

I am afraid of my W, yes. This is largely based on the apology letters I wrote, and fear of being in court with an aggressive attorney going after me, but I will admit that is not the only reason, and I need further work on that.

LITB ~ Thanks for the response. I am pursuing 50/50 and will continue to do so.

[may22]

Hey U,

I've been following along and again not a lawyer, but reading posts from folks who have gone through the process in your thread, it really seems like there is no reason you shouldn't get 50/50, the courts like to see that, it is widely understood that it is in the best interests of the children to have that, and you know and any reasonable person (= the definition of a good judge or mediator) will not hold the incident of grabbing one child who is kicking the other over you. Remember, these family court judges see real abuse. They also see spouses alleging BS abuse just like your W, and I think they are pretty good at knowing the difference.

In any case... re-read those posters who have been through this. Remind yourself why you are doing this-- for your kids. And finally-- stay consistent in response to her jumping back and forth. You probably have already done this, but if not write out reasonable, adult responses to her standard ping-pongy challenges-- #1 probably something like I disagree with your interpretation though I'm sorry you feel that way. I know I'm a good father and our children deserve 50/50 time with each parent; and #2 something like what's best for the kids is 50/50 time with each parent, and I agree that stability is important, which is why we need to work together now to create a stable 50/50 plan that starts as soon as possible.

Whether she likes it or not, this is the reality she's chosen for her children. I think you can't show her that her arguments are swaying you in any way by changing your response. I think you should be consistent and hold the line. You are a good dad. 50/50 is best for the kids. Nothing she can say will change those two fundamental truths.

Stay strong. You got this. I also like the idea of daily yoga or baking bread or learning a new skill that takes enough concentration for you to take a mental break from all the stress and anxiety every day.

[unchien]

I've been following along and again not a lawyer, but reading posts from folks who have gone through the process in your thread, it really seems like there is no reason you shouldn't get 50/50, the courts like to see that, it is widely understood that it is in the best interests of the children to have that, and you know and any reasonable person (= the definition of a good judge or mediator) will not hold the incident of grabbing one child who is kicking the other over you. Remember, these family court judges see real abuse. They also see spouses alleging BS abuse just like your W, and I think they are pretty good at knowing the difference.

I am prepared to defend myself in court at this point. The apology letters are the only thing I worry about.

When we attended MC1 in Fall 2018, my W had insisted I call the incident of grabbing my son's leg as abuse. When I indicated I didn't like using the word "abuse" to characterize the incident, my W flipped out angrily and stormed off. I remember immediately apologizing trying to smooth things over. I had NGS in spades... I just wanted to do or say anything to stop the angry lash-outs.

Our MR had been not going well for awhile prior to that. And for 6 months after the incident she insisted on calling "abuse", my W became even more distant. No affection. She would periodically have these late-night dump session where she would complain about 8 or 10 things she was unhappy about with me. I would listen non-defensively (I had been listening to couples' communication podcasts on the way to work). It was a completely SSM. I tried giving her a special birthday. I could do nothing right. She refused to talk about our R. By March 2019 when I found evidence she wanted a D, I desperately wanted to talk and pulled the car over on our way home from a rare night out. That was a poor decision on my part and I have always been prepared to be open and honest in talking about it.

She takes these 2 events and has created a narrative that I am a monster. And... I so badly wanted to fix things that I wrote the apology letters. I researched remorseful apologies. I researched abuse. She insisted that I was abusive, so I wrote apology letters from that perspective. Literally things like "if you ever feel you need to take the kids if things get scary I understand". I said I was passive-aggressive, and needed serious help, and on and on.

I am ashamed that I wrote those things. It is not who I believed I was. But I was willing to admit to those things to save my MR. It was... pathetic. I want to go back and stop myself. I could have said, "W, I have some things to work on, and I want to fight for our MR, but this is not all on me." Instead, I took all my flaws and magnified them a thousand-fold and thought somehow this was going to be good. It is embarrassing when I look back. Completely embarrassing.

Yes, I was P-A sometimes. I was walking on eggshells. I was not perfect. I was also not a monster, and I was WILLING to work on my issues and our MR. I saw the communication problems and wanted to work on them.

Those apology letters represent to me everything wrong with our MR. Taking sole responsibility for our issues. Accepting the blame. Accepting that I had some sort of psychological problem requiring serious treatment. Not standing up for my needs. Not standing up for my relationship with my kids. Assigning my self-worth to another person's approval.

Never again will I be in a relationship like that. I am 50% responsible for what happened, I don't blame my W 100%. I could have stopped it much earlier. Had I been willing to walk away for what I believed was right, maybe we would have righted the ship long before I found out about DB. But I didn't have the skills at the time. I accept that. I wasn't willing to walk away. I would have done ANYTHING to fix our MR. I wish I had found DB 2 months earlier.

#1 probably something like I disagree with your interpretation though I'm sorry you feel that way. I know I'm a good father and our children deserve 50/50 time with each parent; and #2 something like what's best for the kids is 50/50 time with each parent, and I agree that stability is important, which is why we need to work together now to create a stable 50/50 plan that starts as soon as possible.

I agree, these are my standard responses. I just noticed recently how her reaction to my #1 response is to jump to #2, and if I respond to #2 she jumps back to #1.

Whether she likes it or not, this is the reality she's chosen for her children. I think you can't show her that her arguments are swaying you in any way by changing your response. I think you should be consistent and hold the line. You are a good dad. 50/50 is best for the kids. Nothing she can say will change those two fundamental truths.

I'm never going to convince her I'm a good dad. I own the fact that those letters are contributing to her firm beliefs. I also believe I gave it my best effort this past year in a lousy deal... moving out of the marital home, going to MC2 for 6 months while W accused me of abuse but refused to talk about it (even though I was as non-defensive as I could be), continuing to pay for everything out of my income. We had our chance to resolve things more amicably.

Stay strong. You got this. I also like the idea of daily yoga or baking bread or learning a new skill that takes enough concentration for you to take a mental break from all the stress and anxiety every day.

Yes! I have on and off been trying to get into some hatha yoga this week actually. I like mixing the exercise and meditation aspects.

[LH19]

U,

I know that was probably difficult for you to share. Your W has been clearly planning this D for a long time and always intended to use the "abuse card" against you. I told you about the quote by Peter Crone "life will present you will people and opportunities to show you where you are not free". This quote clearly pertains to you and I know it doesn't feel like it but is going to be the best thing that ever happen to you. You just have to have faith and move forward and deal with the letters if they come up. If you have a good lawyer he will show that you were clearly trying to do everything in you power to save the marriage. Your W is a monster and I want you make a pack to never back down to her again if it is not in your best interest.

Say strong buddy!

[unchien]

LH19 ~ The Peter Crone quote is fantastic.

I'm a little coy about what I post here, but rest assured I have legal counsel and a strategy in place. And if the letters come up I will face them if need be. I hope it doesn't go that far, because I think it will sow even more discord, but I can only control my part.

I can already tell I am a happier person than I was the last year of my MR pre-S. I'm excited about the happiness I will find in the future when this situation is more settled.

[LH19]

U,

Instead of finding happiness just be happy. Remember that’s what’s WWs are doing. Searching for happiness.

[IronWill]

Hey U -

To piggyback on what LH said - in life happiness is a journey, not a destination.

I don't have much advice to give on the D situation. Try to live in the present moment. The future will be what it will be, and we cannot change the past.

When it seems like you only have two choices, remember that there are an infinite number of possibilities ahead of you. None of us know what will happen - I mean, this time last year, who could have predicted we would be in a worldwide pandemic right now? Very few, I would imagine.

Stay strong man - keep your reactions minimal, keep emotions out and show nothing but calm towards W when you do have interactions. That's what I'm working on too.

[fade]

I think I posted some advice to you a long time ago and it still stands:

1. Dont attempt to counsel or mediate with your WAW. Your goal in MC should have been to not do MC. Sounds like you finally stopped doing that finally. Your goal in mediation is to make a fair offer, do not fold, and then let your L handle it. You made the right call by sending her an offer. Keep pushing this forward.

2. As for the letters and pulling over - these are non issues. Erase those from your brain and never mention or think of them again. Ever. You have written about them here about a billion times and clearly you are fixating your fears and anxiety on these events. If she brings them up in court so what. Judges are too concerned about kids who are in legitimate danger. No one but you gives a damn, and your WW doesnt give a damn either except these are super effective weapons to control you due to your insane levels of fear. She's still got you right under her thumb. I cant tell you how many times Ive seen WW's threaten BH with crap like this, the entire time laughing about it to their friends. Then 8 months later 'every other weekend dad' is back looking for custody because XWW is leaving her daughters alone with her meth-head boyfriend du jour. Your only fear should be the future welfare of your kids, and you should use that fear as motivation to move forward for their benefit instead of an excuse for cowering from your WAW.

[unchien]

LH ~ I like that, just be happy now.

IW ~ I agree there are no guarantees about the future. But I also need to press forward to dig out of the current circumstances. My anxiety tends to fix me in my present state. I understand "the illusion of action" but in my case that is a rule meant to broken and I intend to drive things towards conclusion, all while enjoying my life along the journey. I'm pretty sure 2 years from now I will look back and be thankful for this life-changing experience. Although I am an anxious wreck much of the time I am also much happier in ways than I have ever been at any point in my life.

fade ~ Fear has dictated my life the past year plus. I completely agree. Often irrational and exaggerated fear. I have a fantastic L and I am prepared to go all the way to defend myself and seek what I believe is fair.

[IronWill]

But I also need to press forward to dig out of the current circumstances. My anxiety tends to fix me in my present state. I understand "the illusion of action" but in my case that is a rule meant to broken and I intend to drive things towards conclusion, all while enjoying my life along the journey.

Just a word of caution here, U. This "conclusion" you are driving toward is a legal one, not an IRL forever one. As long as you have 3 young kids together, you are going to have to figure out a way to constructively communicate with your W for the foreseeable future, D or no D. That's why I wrote about being calm, detaching, not letting anxiety or fear dictate how you interact. This isn't over as long as you are coparenting - and it would be wise to begin preparing for what comes next.

I'm pretty sure 2 years from now I will look back and be thankful for this life-changing experience.

I always find it interesting the way people view life. I see things completely different than this - but that's ok, everyone has a different perspective. IMO I dont think much about the future anymore, aside from practical things or overall personal life goals I want to achieve (got a great list going, I recommend this highly to anyone). Maybe it's also because every anxious and panicked thought I had about the future a year and a half ago did not come true whatsoever, and I am finding out what a waste of my time and energy that was lol.

Although I am an anxious wreck much of the time I am also much happier in ways than I have ever been at any point in my life.

I am glad you are finding yourself happier - that is good news. I would recommend exploring ways to reduce your anxiety with IC, though. I'm working at this and will probably continue to work at this for the rest of my life.

Also, one more thing. IMO fade is right. Stop giving so much power to those letters and the car incident. They happened, you cant change that. You didnt hurt anyone, your kids are fine. Letting those things have power over you serves no purpose other than to keep your anxiety rooted in place.

Take care man - stay healthy and stay strong

[unchien]

IW ~ Thanks for chiming in. You touched upon a lot of things I am striving for.

There is so much going on with my situation - custody, the house, support, finances - but I prefer to leave most of that out of my posts. It is a frustrating mess, but I feel good that I am taking non-emotional steps.

Unfortunately 3 months in we have almost zero agreement on any item. My W wants to grant me another weekend each month, but keep S8 at her house while I have the girls, and I want more involvement during the weekdays (school, activity, etc.). She wants to defer final parenting decisions down the road, with the advice of evaluators and therapists. After how things developed the past year, I don't trust her to ever truly be open to a more balanced parenting arrangement. I understand that the erosion of trust between parents can have awful consequences for the children. But it is what it is... I need a clear custody arrangement that gets us headed to 50-50.

My W does refer to the letters. She mentions how S8 is having difficulty adjusting, and claims he's scared of me. I know that custody evaluators see this sort of thing all the time. I know without a long-term custody plan spelled out up front, she will never grant me more time in the future.

Regarding the house, my income is short several thousand dollars per month to pay for everything. The mortgage on the marital home is larger than the maximum support I would ever have to pay. Each month this delays I am depleting everything that we worked for, my future, and the kids' future. We had agreed to sell the home 2 months ago, and now she wants to visit a complicated buy-out even though she doesn't have cash to do so. The clock is ticking and nothing is really resolving.

I hope we can co-parent well in the future. It is going to be difficult with her "safety concerns" constantly in the way of us effectively communicating. Hopefully at some point she relaxes. Maybe we could mediate and work through this. It would probably take at least a year. MC2 last year (for 6 months) resulted in no substantial changes. Or... I can go the legal route, establish custody, extract myself from this financial morass (to a degree). It will add to the rancor and discord between STBXW and me. It is probably worse for our kids. It's not necessarily going to make me any happier. It's not entirely within my control whether she wants to be reasonable. Unfortunately, if she's not willing to compromise in mediation, then I'm really forced to choose the legal options. I'm comfortable with this. I've been tormented about it for months now, but I have come to peace the last month.

I took a co-parenting class this winter on my own initiative, and also have read 2 books thus far. I am ready and willing to make this work with STBXW. Unfortunately, we may be on the parallel parenting track for awhile. I am informed enough to know what works with co-parenting, and trying to do my part, but realistically STBXW and I are going to need a trained counselor to help us out.

Unfortunately, STBXW has been digging in her heels on custody, clearly does not see my involvement in the kids' weekday lives as valuable (or wants to postpone the decision - which, c'mon, how many times has a father signed up to postpone custody and then actually gotten it?), to the point I am left with almost no options except one. She sells the mediator that we can work this out in the future, and I don't believe we can. It's the same sad story that plays out in a lot of high conflict divorces and other than backing down, I see no way at this point except to use the legal machinery available. It's disappointing, but hey... I'm not going to let my disappointment stop me from doing what I think is right and in accordance with my values.

[IronWill]

Hey U -

Sorry you're having all this going on right now. It can't be easy - and I wanted to let you know that my post was more to inspire you to think outside the box.

That being said, I find it interesting that W seems to be stalling on a few fronts. I'm not great at mind-reading, but if someone wanted to just walk away, I would think this would have been completely finished by now. But that's just speculation on my part...

I wonder if there is a way to separate these issues into more manageable chunks? Is there any way you could figure the house part out without delving into everything else all at once? Especially if it is financially untenable for you?

[unchien]

IW ~ She is stalling because on every front she stands to lose.

I'm over-paying support by several K per month, not seeing the kids as much as I should by any reasonable metric, and she continues to live in a mountain mansion with beautiful views. She hasn't gone back to work although she's rented office space for 18 months. Why would she be in a rush? She is advocating for the lifestyle she wants, and the longer this plays out, the better for her.

All of these issues will be coming to a head soon. Retaining a L was one of the best decisions I ever made. I have options, I have ways out.

[Ginger1]

IW ~ She is stalling because on every front she stands to lose.

I'm over-paying support by several K per month, not seeing the kids as much as I should by any reasonable metric, and she continues to live in a mountain mansion with beautiful views. She hasn't gone back to work although she's rented office space for 18 months. Why would she be in a rush? She is advocating for the lifestyle she wants, and the longer this plays out, the better for her.

All of these issues will be coming to a head soon. Retaining a L was one of the best decisions I ever made. I have options, I have ways out.

Why are you overlaying several K per month ? Who’s finding the mountain mansion ?

You can put an end to all of this, you know

[Ginger1]

Lord. That was supposed to real “overpaying” and “funding”

[LB55]

U our situations are so similar. False abuse allegations, lack of desire to go to trial, ex living a fantastic life that we fund, etc. I totally get where you are at brother.

Took the time to read through all your updates and I resonate with almost all of it.

Be strong and do what’s best for you and for your kids.

My ex is angry...nothing I can do about that. I no longer fear her anger. She will be angry no matter what I do. So I’m doing what’s best for me and the kids. Even if it costs me a lot of money.

Don’t fear your ex. She’s got nothing factual from what I can see. Just a bunch of heresay BS. I was deathly afraid of that as well. I wrote some stupid letter too. Admitted to this and that and everything else. It’s in the past. So is the incident in the car. Don’t let the fear of ‘what if’ dominate your life.

Control what you can control. Your emotions, your actions, and your reactions. I’ve been following your thread since post #1 and I can say for sure your tone has changed. You were surely all over the map when this first started!!! You’re much more grounded and level headed. Fight for what is right and fight for what you want. You’ve got this!

[unchien]

Why are you overlaying several K per month ? Who’s finding the mountain mansion ?

You can put an end to all of this, you know

Thanks for the chuckle (with overlaying and finding)! A double Freudian slip!

I know I can end it. There's a bunch of legal options at my disposal I won't get into here. We had an informal agreement to sell, now she has a mysterious third party willing to co-sign on a jumbo loan and is proposing to buy me out. (This person is assuredly a rich female friend of hers - if it's an OM, good for me, my support reduces if she has a live-in partner). In any case, I don't think she has the cash to buy me out, and I won't take non-liquid money.

U our situations are so similar. False abuse allegations, lack of desire to go to trial, ex living a fantastic life that we fund, etc. I totally get where you are at brother.

LB ~ Yep. I think where we diverge is your W is much more hostile. My W is trying to get her way in a more subtle way. I have regular time with my kids, it just isn't as much as I want. She will be nice to me when getting her way, and as soon as I stand up for myself she gets defensive. The thing is, of course I'd like us to have a nice co-parenting relationship, but I won't cater to her needs just because I'm worried she will react negatively.

I can't recall if I posted this... in our last mediation session, the mediator (a retired judge) heard my W refer to CPS. I clarified that there were never CPS reports, and said I was concerned she was saying CPS. He looked up and said "that CPS stuff --- that is bullsh*t". This is the mediator saying that! My L said people who work in the system can't stand the false claims -- they jam up the system and eat up valuable resources.

In any case, somehow in these situations, while the father is supposed to remain calm and rational, the mother can make abuse claims, entrench themselves with the kids and the house, and everyone looks to us to the father to avoid court. What am I supposed to do?

I did make one DB mistake recently I'd like to share. My W was escalating e-mails, and eventually e-mailed me that she was annoyed I had hired a lawyer, that I was making this super expensive, and said I was the first to get a lawyer, in February 2019. I said, "No, it was February 2020. You were the first to meet a lawyer, and you steered us to MC2 because he was a divorce specialist. We both know this is true, you can deny it all you want."

She reacted as I would expect. "Stop taking shots at me." I know it was pointless to say what I did, but I wanted her to know I know the truth. Her reaction was to get defensive and ignore the content of what I said (because it is true). But... I got sucked into an argument over truth, which was a DB mistake.

[unchien]

Feeling the heavy weight of perspective today.

There was a shark attack where I often go surfing yesterday. A young man died. He was a friend of a friend.

Life is precious.

[HopeCA]

Hi U,

Interestingly, I live near that area as well, and my H is a surfer, so it hit home for me too. It’s crazy when there is already so much more death and loss in the world than usual right now, and this kind of thing comes from the left while we are fixated looking to our right.

It makes my mind spin. But the perspective shift is a good thing.

[unchien]

I have alluded to, but not directly posted about, something that will likely cause a major shift in my situation soon.

I've been pressing for resolution on timeshare with our kids through mediation. Currently I do a 4-10 (Friday pm through Tuesday am, every other weekend). My W eventually offered a 3rd weekend per month, but she wants me to only have the girls (not my son, the oldest). Then revisit in the fall, next spring, etc., with the help of counselors, custody evaluators, etc. I am not hung up on 50-50, but I want a roughly equal timeshare including weeknights. I want to be involved with my kids' school lives, their activities, that day-to-day grind of everyday life. Weekend dad is not going to cut it for me.

My stance is we should agree on a permanent plan now, and can always adjust later if circumstances change. I know that I will never get to anything resembling equal timeshare in the future if not agreed upon now. She claims she is open to 50-50 in the future, but I know she will never grant me that. I am not gullible. Whether she knows she is being manipulative, or deluding herself that her mindset may change, it doesn't matter.

A few months ago, after starting mediation, my W sent me several disturbing texts. It was the same narrative, but more heightened than usual. I felt then and there I had to put some things in motion legally to protect myself. Those things are about to come to light. I have been working through mediation, and direct communication with my W, to try to reach a solution through reasonable means, so we could avoid the ugly route. It hasn't worked.

I'm not happy that things are coming to this. It's great to have legal protections. Unfortunately, when it comes to fighting for your kids through the legal system, things can and will get ugly. What a shame. I don't care about the MR, but I do care about the pointlessness of this bickering. I'm going to be paying for lawyers' kids to go to college. My W can't let go of her abuse narrative and it's leading us to MAD.

[Traveler]

Unfortunately, when it comes to fighting for your kids through the legal system, things can and will get ugly. What a shame. I don't care about the MR, but I do care about the pointlessness of this bickering. I'm going to be paying for lawyers' kids to go to college. My W can't let go of her abuse narrative and it's leading us to MAD.

I hope your attorney finds a cost-effective way to present your case, so you're not only facing the options of rolling over and doing whatever your wife says OR mutually assured destruction.

[unchien]

CW ~ Part of that is outside my control.

[Core]

I'm not happy that things are coming to this. It's great to have legal protections. Unfortunately, when it comes to fighting for your kids through the legal system, things can and will get ugly. What a shame. I don't care about the MR, but I do care about the pointlessness of this bickering. I'm going to be paying for lawyers' kids to go to college. My W can't let go of her abuse narrative and it's leading us to MAD.

U, I'm so sorry for the difficulty of your sitch. This "ace card" you have to play, are you mentally ready to play it? You sound like you really have yourself together. I'm not happy for your sitch but I am happy reading your growth over the months here.

The battle your W is putting up is unnecessary. Only the lawyers win in a drawn out battle. Why she feels the need to battle, I dont have a clue.

You're handling your sitch better than I mine, and mines more peaceful. Its impressive. Keep that strength. Looking forward to your next updates.

[unchien]

Core ~ Like everyone here I'm doing my best. I am ready to play the card because I am increasingly left with no choice. I recognize with anxiety there is a fallacy that I can DO something that will fix things. In reality, my situation is a sh**show. My kids are caught in the middle and it's horrible for everybody. But I have to press on and do the best I can, knowing full well that if I get 50-50 custody or we resolve the house issue or support is established, none of those things are going to fix things magically. Regardless of circumstances, today is a day I am alive and it's up to me if I want to be happy or not.

I'm not doing all that great, honestly, but I started on a mild SSRI a couple months ago that also helps with anxiety and it has done wonders for me. I don't feel nauseous, I don't feel panicky, I'm able to refocus. I don't think differently, but the thoughts don't trigger the same levels of panic and anxiety. Long-term I want to wrangle this myself through therapy, but I decided I needed some help. I'm living alone, during a quarantine, in a medium-to-high conflict divorce, hemorrhaging money, not knowing where my life is going to end up even in the next 3 months. It's reasonable that I would be struggling.

I restarted lifting weights in my garage, I do some yoga videos. But to be honest, I just have a lot of time and not much to do. I built an outdoor chair in my garage last weekend. I veg out.

I'm trying to make sure to do one thing each day that feels good. Today I'm going to order some new photos of my kids - I have a pin-up board in my kitchen and want to replace older photos with fresh ones. That will feel good.

[LH19]

U,

I want to start out by saying I have nothing but compassion for what you are going through but I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't call you out on some of your thought patterns.

I'm living alone, during a quarantine, in a medium-to-high conflict divorce, hemorrhaging money, not knowing where my life is going to end up even in the next 3 months. It's reasonable that I would be struggling.

Guess what U I have all the same things going on but my D is over. I will bet you have a way better job then me and that you are younger. You are hemorrhaging money because you moved out when we told you not to do it. You are hemorrhaging money because you won't push the D through. Fade told you 6-8 months ago that this was going to happen and you chose to ignore it. I have know idea where my life is going to end up 3 months from now. None of us do. You have to stop playing the victim U.

Come on man!

[unchien]

Lots of negotiations and back and forth with mediation and L's going on at this point. Little to no progress even with upcoming hearings coming to light. I've been off the forums for about a week because so many things have been put into motion, and I'm primarily focused on my kids, work, and all the disclosure documentation I'm working on.

In some way, I could report new developments every 5 minutes.

In another way, nothing has significantly changed in my situation. I'm going with the process to stand up for what I believe in, catching flak (which is to be expected, and 99% of the time I react to with indifference), and making sure to take care of myself along the way.

I have to be pretty coy at this point about the details. I am incredibly happy that I have L representation at this point so the process can move one way or another.

[LH19]

[quote=unchien] I'm going with the process to stand up for what I believe in, catching flak (which is to be expected, and 99% of the time I react to with indifference), and making sure to take care of myself along the way. [quote]
Good for you man!

[unchien]

I don't have much to update.

Despite my best efforts to resolve things through mediation, we are fast converging on a court date next week. The story of the legal back-and-forth the last few months is absolutely nuts and has consumed a lot of time and energy. I've remained calm and handled it well.

STBXW and I have made almost zero progress in mediation or counseling. I suspected this would happen, and put some things in motion a few months back. I am so thankful for my L. I found the perfect person to represent me.

In addition, I am feeling great, and this has been a consistent feeling the past month now. The key factor has been getting a handle on my anxiety. That has been the key to everything for me - more than dealing with my D. I can't overstate this enough.

[LH19]

In addition, I am feeling great, and this has been a consistent feeling the past month now. The key factor has been getting a handle on my anxiety. That has been the key to everything for me - more than dealing with my D. I can't overstate this enough.

That's great news U! I was thinking about you today while reading Core's update as you guys have a lot in common. Maybe you can give him some pointers on his anxiety?

[may22]

Thanks for updating us, U. Thinking of you and glad you're doing so well.

[unchien]

New thread: https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2897167&#Post2897167