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Thread #1: 6 Months of MLC
Thread #2: Learning how to stand, hope, and keep moving
Quick recap: H BD in June 2019, started DBing a couple weeks after that. M 10 years, T 16. Still roommates. No apparent OW, but who knows.

Thank you, DnJ, Believe6, and PLC for the support. Believe, I will stop by your thread soon. I haven't had as much time to be here this week, and, honestly, these last few days I've felt like I'm hanging by a thread. Instead of posting when I can reflect and as a way to reflect, I'm posting because I'm losing it and need somewhere to vent. I feel guilty because I haven't been catching up on other threads either.

DnJ, I know I need to set this boundary with H, and I know I'd rather avoid it. It's like suddenly I'm living with a roommate who I never would have thought compatible in an interview. I wouldn't have to confront a roommate about this, because I never would have agreed to live with them in the first place--it's like I've been assigned someone problematic in college again. This is total alien H. It's so disorienting, and the pandemic news is disorienting enough. I am riding huge waves of anger, fear, hurt, sadness and find my center for only brief slices of time. I've been able to disconnect from H but now that he's here all the time, I'm forced to witness the work version of H and the version of H he is with his friends. I miss the days when all of that took place outside the house!

He joked with me today while he worked from home. He was friendly. After work, he immediately started another group call with his friends. Over an hour. Playing trivia games together. I went for a walk even though I had a headache, just to get away. I came back, and he was still on the call. Then he left to get beer. Then back and another group call with games has started up. I feel like I'm going crazy. Is this my life now? H just in his room on the phone all evening? I put headphones on but can still hear him. I crave quiet. Alone time.

It seems that since he can't go out with these people any longer after work, he has this instead. He's not able to be alone with himself for a night. With his thoughts. They're not talking much about how their lives have been turned upside down by the pandemic or about the world; they're playing games. Drinking buddies.

I thought H had matured a little since BD, but now I see that I was probably wrong. He may have regained some control of his drinking, but he's still in this bubble with these people who he considers real friends. They appreciate him. He is happy. Nothing is wrong. They help distract him. It's just I get to see how they interact now, which I'd rather not.

I am trying to figure out how to comfort and protect myself in this new situation. Today was the first full day of it, and it feels like it's been weeks. It's hard for me to imagine more than a week of this. I'm exhausted. Do I take a cue from the way H was after BD and just start wearing my own headphones all the time? I don't feel like interacting with him. I want to pretend he is not here. I want to focus on myself. I'd gotten to the point before where I only thought about our R now and then during the day. Now that he's 100% here, it's at the top of my mind, which starts the cycle of: He doesn't seem to care about me at all, I just happen to be here --> He really doesn't love me --> Then why is he still here? Why hasn't he filed? How long will this go on? How will I get through this? Day by day, minute by minute. But I worry I will blow up at him at some point--either cry or scream, because I'm so on edge, so frustrated with the way he's acting.

VENT VENT VENT. Thank you. No one else is awake at this time for me to text, even though it's not that late here yet.


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Originally Posted by cardinal
I am trying to figure out how to comfort and protect myself in this new situation. Today was the first full day of it, and it feels like it's been weeks. It's hard for me to imagine more than a week of this. I'm exhausted. Do I take a cue from the way H was after BD and just start wearing my own headphones all the time? I don't feel like interacting with him. I want to pretend he is not here. I want to focus on myself.


I should also say I want to be careful here, because right now I'm also motivated by a desire to give H the cold shoulder, to turn away, to shut down.


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And also--the post that keeps going--I am not comfortable with trying to set roommate type agreements right now because I'm not able to work while this shelter in place stuff is all going on, so I'm no longer bringing in much money at all. I feel like H has all the power here. Our finances are not split, so this means I couldn't pay rent or buy groceries without him. I feel pretty vulnerable in that respect.


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Hello cardinal

Vent away!

I do read all your posts. Unfortunately this is not texting, so the cadence of conversation is delayed sometimes.

You put it very well. H is a roommate you would not have chosen.

It’s amazing how they become the opposite, isn’t it? Like an alien took over their body. It is so disorienting!

All the waves of emotions you’re riding are all perfectly normal. Anger, fear, hurt, sadness - it takes time to process these. Grief takes time.

I found rationalizing helps. Our intellect and physical actions are truly the only things is our direct control. Emotions and beliefs are influenced - by intellect and action. (Ok a little simplified but close enough)

Your understanding, your logic, your reason does help. Mental assertiveness - sword and shield. We are not unarmed in this.

Intellect is sans emotions. While in your intellectual car, you have emotional peace and indifference. These times influence your emotional state; uncouple your reactions from H.

Understanding is intellect. Acceptance is emotional. Acceptance is emotional understanding.

Of course one cannot stay in their intellectual car forever. One must feel their emotions. Allow yourself to feel what you feel. Let it wash over you - not rule you. Remember you influence your emotions. They come from within you, therefore you can affect them.

Being accurate in thought and heart is a good method towards detachment. Seeing things as they really are.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I know I need to set this boundary with H, and I know feel I'd rather avoid it.

Boundaries are for you. For your emotional protection and peace of mind.

You know the benefit of a boundary. See that is not intellect that would rather avoid it. No, your reason knows the value of it, it’s your emotions that hinder you. Fear.

Tell me what you fear. And in doing so, you will tell yourself. The first step in letting go.

Rationalizing leads to detachment. See the things you think and the things you feel.

You are doing really good. Hang in there. Day by day, and even minute by minute when needed. (((Hugs)))

DnJ


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He's still on the phone. Going on two hours now. More wine. Maybe edibles. Very giggly. Now I think he's talking to a friend I know. I feel so alone that I can't talk to him. That he doesn't want to talk to me. I want to scream, but I can't. I feel like a prisoner in my own home.

Originally Posted by DnJ
You know the benefit of a boundary. See that is not intellect that would rather avoid it. No, your reason knows the value of it, it’s your emotions that hinder you. Fear.

Tell me what you fear. And in doing so, you will tell yourself. The first step in letting go.


I am afraid that he'll leave me alone somehow--split our finances if he doesn't move out, and I have no money. I wouldn't be able to pay rent here or anywhere without income right now. I don't think my job will return for weeks, maybe months. I am afraid he thinks of me as someone he's just supporting now, how annoying. He's waiting for me to get fed up and yell at him so I'm the bad guy. I'm also afraid that he'll just ignore my boundary. I don't know how likely this is. But I couldn't enforce it.


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Fear that there is no hope for us in the open-ended future—I’ve lost my ability to hope. All this time I’ve made note of little positive exchanges we’ve had, but what are these to the hours and hours he’s spent with basically anyone else but me since BD? He’s still on the phone and I’m done crying, so I’ll probably fall asleep soon. But I find myself wanting to listen just to hear stories of what he’s been up to lately. A little glimpse into the life of this person who has made his thoughts and feelings a mystery to me. What are all the hours he’s spending with these people to the hours we spent building a life together?


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I wish I would have seen your post last night. I was still up.

I totally get the thoughts you have about when at work you don’t think much about the situation. Same here. I do have some distraction with our daughter home, but not much. Where before he would be in and out and I didn’t even give it a thought anymore, I am now so aware of how much he can’t sit still at home.

Thankfully, he is not chatty on the phone like your H is, but I hear constant text pings. Last night, he came home from work, went into the bedroom, stayed there until 7:45 then came into the den to go to bed. 7:45! The suns barely gone down. He’s bored. It’s hard to navigate.

Also, today is our 28th wedding anniversary. We are currently about seven weeks away from the anniversary of the BD. I never thought I’d be here a year later like this. Last year, we had a nice dinner out, just the two of us.

I have a feeling I will be here more as the days go by.

See you soon.

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Good Morning cardinal

Originally Posted by cardinal
Fear that there is no hope for us in the open-ended future—I’ve lost my ability to hope.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Don’t let anyone take away your hope. And don’t worry your hope, like beliefs, does change into something self-affirming and reinforcing; a slightly different version, yet the same intent.

Don’t let anyone, even you and your fear, take away your hope.

Hope does alter as I said. Becomes a belief, a way of life. Seeing the all possibilities and choosing to live towards the good ones while being prepared for the less desirable ones.

You have not lost the ability to hope, it just feels like it for right now. And the focus of your hope and desires is changing a little. All really good things. Detached and indifferent with a good helping of compassion.


Originally Posted by cardinal
I'm exhausted. Do I take a cue from the way H was after BD and just start wearing my own headphones all the time? I don't feel like interacting with him. I want to pretend he is not here. I want to focus on myself. I'd gotten to the point before where I only thought about our R now and then during the day. Now that he's 100% here, it's at the top of my mind, which starts the cycle of: He doesn't seem to care about me at all, I just happen to be here --> He really doesn't love me --> Then why is he still here? Why hasn't he filed? How long will this go on? How will I get through this? Day by day, minute by minute. But I worry I will blow up at him at some point--either cry or scream, because I'm so on edge, so frustrated with the way he's acting.

Yes. Living with a MLCer can be exhausting. Put your focus back onto yourself, your life, your desires (and not desires about R, M or someone else). Let him be. Let him live on his own in your house. It’s like a teenage kid. Let them be alone in their room, on their phone, headphones cranked up, doing whatever it is they do. You might see them at meal time once in a while, or not. smile Then one day they grew up and speak to you again. It’s weird and normal; and MLCers are just big, rebellious, teenagers - like times 10.


Originally Posted by cardinal
I should also say I want to be careful here, because right now I'm also motivated by a desire to give H the cold shoulder, to turn away, to shut down.

There is a difference between cold shoulder and indifference. Cold shoulder has lots of feeling attached to it. Bitter feelings. Choose better not bitter. Seek indifference with compassion. It’s not shutting down, far from it. It’s living fully for you.


Originally Posted by cardinal
I am not comfortable with trying to set roommate type agreements right now because I'm not able to work while this shelter in place stuff is all going on, so I'm no longer bringing in much money at all. I feel like H has all the power here. Our finances are not split, so this means I couldn't pay rent or buy groceries without him. I feel pretty vulnerable in that respect.

This is driven by your fear. H being around all the time right now has triggered your fear. That feeling of vulnerability.

The loss of control; a pretty common fear. And one I have had many conversations about this week with people regarding the current state of the world. Seeing things happen beyond our control triggers something. People react. Primal responses, hidden emotions, driven by fears of death, pain, etc. Rationalizing uncouples the emotion from the possible future, and ceases the reactions. One find emotional understanding which is acceptance.


Originally Posted by cardinal
I am afraid that he'll leave me alone somehow--split our finances if he doesn't move out, and I have no money. I wouldn't be able to pay rent here or anywhere without income right now. I don't think my job will return for weeks, maybe months. I am afraid he thinks of me as someone he's just supporting now, how annoying. He's waiting for me to get fed up and yell at him so I'm the bad guy. I'm also afraid that he'll just ignore my boundary. I don't know how likely this is. But I couldn't enforce it.

All kinds of possibilities have stirred up. Where did you put the more positive ones? Where did you put your hope?

Let’s rationalize some of this together, if that’s ok.

Fear is irrational and real. It is valid. It needs to be acknowledged.

You fear H will leave you alone somehow, and split the finances, leave you without money, and yet not move out. You fear he sees you as someone he is just financially supporting, and becoming more annoyed. Then you can’t pay rent, food, and so on.

When is the rent due? End of the month? Whatever the date - it is not tomorrow. The rent will get paid and you have a month. This is not as dire as you feel it is. I’m not arguing your feelings, for they are true. We are rationalizing thoughts to influence your feelings. Hard to do, people tend to get defensive, even to themselves, when their feelings are being altered. Our automatic response is to reject this effort and rebel against it.

You’ve seen a lawyer (I think you did). You know your rights. You know best case, worst case, and most likely case of a separation / divorce. You will not be left penniless.

Some of the first advice is to let the MLCer do the heavy lifting. Let them push for a divorce or separating assets. Unless you need financial protection and security. Are you needing financial security? I can see you feel that way. How close do you think are to needed it.

Now, rationally, you need security. Half of everything is your’s. You can open an account, in your name only, and transfer half of all joint accounts over to you. That will help alleviate the concern of him doing something to split up assets. It is good advice and hard to put into practice. It kind of feels like giving up. Think business-like. What do you think you should do? Not feel like you should do?

Your job is weeks, maybe months away. True. A valid and wise view. For you sanity and protection you might want to seek some security. Again you’ve spoken to L. You have information. It’s your choice when you want to use it.

Don’t wait out of fear. Don’t act out of fear. Rationally think about this.

I do remember where you are right now. (((cardinal))) I was so lost, frustrated, scared - I couldn’t hardly think straight. So, my personally view knowing only what I know from reading here, get financial protection and security for yourself.

We don’t want to make decisions based solely on feelings. And we don’t want to dismiss our feelings, for they are valid and sometimes precursors to which our thoughts haven’t yet seen.

The fear of all this works against you for any boundaries. Please do not remain powerless. And that is more internal, than having a separate account. Fear robs us of our strength and power. You, my dear girl, are worthy, and strong. Take control of what you can control - you.

Strengthen, power, hope - no one get to takes those from you! They can’t! We just lose them for a while.

As to boundaries. They are for you. They are not to modify H. Nor to punish H. They are for your sanity - emotional, mental, physical, and spiritual health. Boundaries are clear definitions of behaviour you don’t accept. The enforcement is what you will do when confronted with this behaviour. It is not what he has to do.

You cannot make H do anything. You can’t make anyone do anything. You only control you. They have to want to change their behaviour.

H will test your boundaries, your resolve. Teenagers do that. And it is aggravating. We usually end up just nagging, which of course has less then stellar results. Dog training technics are better - reward good behaviour and ignore the negative. People, and dogs, want/need acknowledgement, want/need feedback, want/need attention - even if it is for poor behaviour.

Don’t let H push your buttons. You can have a boundary with out saying a word.

Focus on you.

Get security - in whatever form that takes.

You are a strong and worthy person. Don’t lose sight of her.

Don’t let anyone take away your hope.

DnJ


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HI

Its a difficult time right now and with a live in MLCer, it is also extremely hard..
Everything your saying and feeling is valid and I would continue as you are
venting, going for walks and or doing things that ground and center you

Good days, bad days
We have all had those same fears about money

I remember saying to my friend, well worst comes to worst Ill work at like Macy"s and I accepted that

little did I know what the universe would open up for me as far as work goes

You are doing so good, you are trying to painfully walk through an unbearable loss and situation
during a time in our lives of uncertainty

one step at a time
one breath at a time
one prayer...

you r stronger than u know
not running, not drinking, not ...
your are courageous
and truly powerful and will get through this as we all have

This is just one step in the journey..Eventually the journey at least this painful piece will be complete
and all things fall into place for your best even though you cant see it all now

Trust


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PLC, I wish my H would turn in early! Ha. I'm exhausted this morning and couldn't go back to sleep once I woke up. I'm wishing you peace and love for yourself on this day. Anniversaries are hard. Do you have any activities planned for you or your daughter? I'm hoping to get outside and do some gardening.

DnJ, you are right that my rational thinking ability is near nil at this moment. Please bear with me. When I don't sleep enough, I know everything looks worse than it is, too. I am trying to recognize that and want to lead off by saying I also recognize I'm operating on the assumption that things will only get worse with H home all the time, but I've only made it through one day of this. It seems likely there will be many more days ahead. At least three weeks, according to our order, but I'm sure more. There could be better days ahead. H could settle into a better routine.

And I assume it will get easier to become indifferent to his phonecalls to others, even though right now they make me feel helpless, angry, sad, pessimistic, so many overwhelming feelings that I'm having trouble sitting with and uncoupling. I think the center of my anger and how it relates to the calls is that I can't understand, no matter how much I read or try to rationalize, how he could suddenly drop me as a friend and be okay with it at BD. I know I've said that before. I see it's still bothering me. Rationally: it was not sudden, he went through a process I was not aware of, but from my perspective it is a flipped switch, and I'm not able to fully understand it and so make peace with it. He doesn't love me, he wants a D, those things are bad enough, but okay. But also he's a different person who acts like we are acquaintances most of the time, not people with a whole history?

I'm back to projecting into the future. What worries me is how angry this still makes me. How much I still want to understand how he could stop being friends with me, why it's better to spend hours playing games on the phone with a bunch of drinking buddies than talk to me. I am having a very hard time finding any of the compassion I've worked on building for him.

I try: it's easier for him to talk to them because there is no long history there. They only know him as he is now. But he was also talking to a friend I knew at the end of the night, I think, so I don't know how to rationalize that. Too hard to talk to me because it brings up old feelings/memories? Gotta keep a distance on that part of his life?

I think I just want a hint that he's actually affected by what's going on with us or what's going on in the world right now, that he's struggling with something. That would help me summon compassion again.

As for the financial security part, rent will be paid next month, there is money in our account today and I can buy groceries. I know other people don't even have that security right now. But it is in my best interest for our account not to be split, even moreso now that I don't have income I can rely on. Worst case, even with support payments, I could not pay rent anywhere or buy groceries right now. That is the reality. So protecting myself involves hoping all of that stays status quo. Before it was just until I could get a better job, and I could make it work in the meantime if I had to. Now I could not make it work in the meantime.

Originally Posted by DnJ
.
The fear of all this works against you for any boundaries. Please do not remain powerless. And that is more internal, than having a separate account. Fear robs us of our strength and power. You, my dear girl, are worthy, and strong. Take control of what you can control - you.

Strengthen, power, hope - no one get to takes those from you! They can’t! We just lose them for a while.

As to boundaries. They are for you. They are not to modify H. Nor to punish H. They are for your sanity - emotional, mental, physical, and spiritual health. Boundaries are clear definitions of behaviour you don’t accept. The enforcement is what you will do when confronted with this behaviour. It is not what he has to do.


I struggle with this particular fear--of not being able to afford housing or food--because it may not be something I need to devote my time to worrying about at this moment, since there is nothing I can do about the pandemic, but it is a fear that is not irrational. I don't actually believe H would split things up suddenly or leave me with nothing. None of his behavior has indicated that. But it's the fact that I am not self-sufficient right now that I am not happy with. (The internal part.) I don't like the thought of relying on H or H feeling like I am relying on him financially. But it is just the truth of the situation right now that I am. Many people are struggling financially right now. It just is.

Originally Posted by DnJ


You cannot make H do anything. You can’t make anyone do anything. You only control you. They have to want to change their behaviour.

H will test your boundaries, your resolve. Teenagers do that. And it is aggravating. We usually end up just nagging, which of course has less then stellar results. Dog training technics are better - reward good behaviour and ignore the negative. People, and dogs, want/need acknowledgement, want/need feedback, want/need attention - even if it is for poor behaviour.

Don’t let H push your buttons. You can have a boundary with out saying a word.


If my boundary is that H respects a certain quiet time in the house, does this include phone calls? Or is it on me to just stop letting the phone calls bother me? It's not like he's talking to an AP--then maybe I'd be entitled to ask him to make the calls outside.

If H does start playing music loudly too late, I could say I would appreciate him wearing headphones and respecting certain quiet hours.

If he doesn't, that's where I'm stuck. I can only control me. What could I do at that point? Again, maybe I shouldn't borrow trouble and worry before that happens. But I want to be prepared and understand respectful, calm ways to respond.

I can have a boundary without saying a word. I don't share my emotional states with H. I have that boundary without having to state it. Are there other examples of boundaries I can have right now that I don't have to state?


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Thank you for these affirmations, peacetoday--I think you posted while I was writing my post this morning, so I just saw your words. I feel like I am doing pretty bad, not able to maintain indifference right now, but it is an extremely hard time, as you say. So it helps me to remember that and not to be hard on myself on top of everything else. I will just try my best to keep surviving this new period, every day starting over if I have to.

I thought of one way to practice compassion--I'll begin asking H if he needs anything from the store when I go, because we're all going so rarely now anyway, and it's hard to find things. In times like these, that seems like a basic kindness.


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Hello cardinal

Originally Posted by cardinal
DnJ, you are right that my rational thinking ability is near nil at this moment. Please bear with me.

Of course.

Originally Posted by cardinal
When I don't sleep enough, I know everything looks worse than it is.

Been there. Not a fun time.

I do empathize with your efforts to find understanding in all this. Yes, it is difficult to remember and accept that H slowly and silently slipped into confusion. To us our spouse’s change was very sudden; it looks like they just flipped a switch.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I still want to understand how he could stop being friends with me, why it's better to spend hours playing games on the phone with a bunch of drinking buddies than talk to me.

Because the MLCer is reliving their time from that long ago trauma. The time they were emotional stunted. H is an emotionally immature teenage kid in a full grown man’s body. It is more fun to spend time with buddies than a wife.

Buddies not friends. There is a big difference in how he is seeing and using those people.

Also, do not take it personally - him not wanting a wife. This is about him, not you. He is a teenager. Remember when you were 12 or 15 or so. We didn’t want to be married then. We didn’t even think about it. Teens are growing up, doing teenager stuff. The last thing on their mind is getting married and having a family. The times H is present, realizes his behaviour, and where and when he is - imagine the confusion of realizing you are married when you are 15. They really need to run from their torment.

You can also add to all that a lack of empathy. MLCers empathy chips are broken. They cannot empathize about anyone else. Their feelings are out of control and they cannot handle anyone else’s. No pressure or they will bolt. At times they do feel, and the shame, guilt, grief eats at them. And yet they are too emotionally traumatized to see the way out. It takes time, and a lot of it.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I am having a very hard time finding any of the compassion I've worked on building for him.

Perhaps a different view would help.

Quote
I am having a very hard time finding any of the compassion I've worked on building for about him.

Your compassion is for you. It is about him.

The compassion you’ve found is for you. It heals you. It helps you grow. In that view, compassion, and yes eventually forgiveness, is not dependent upon H’s behaviour or remorse. You feel and believe these because you want to live that way.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I struggle with this particular fear--of not being able to afford housing or food--because it may not be something I need to devote my time to worrying about at this moment, since there is nothing I can do about the pandemic, but it is a fear that is not irrational. I don't actually believe H would split things up suddenly or leave me with nothing. None of his behavior has indicated that. But it's the fact that I am not self-sufficient right now that I am not happy with. (The internal part.) I don't like the thought of relying on H or H feeling like I am relying on him financially. But it is just the truth of the situation right now that I am. Many people are struggling financially right now. It just is.

It’s ok.

Please remember I’m not arguing. Rationalizing against one’s own emotions is difficult. We actually fight against it.

Originally Posted by cardinal
...but it is a fear that is not irrational.

All fear is irrational.

That’s not bad, or weak, or anything else we perceive as negative. Irrational is just - not rational, not based upon reason or logic. It is based upon feeling, emotions, and beliefs.

There are many good and great things that are irrational. Love, joy, happiness, desire, admiration, empathy, compassion, forgiveness, faith, and so on.

Fear is irrational, it paralyses us. Short circuits our reasoning. Narrows our focus and blinds us to other possibilities.

Follow you fear, find the root, and stop feeding it. Let it to wither.

It is difficult - letting go of fear. Without it, all that stuff becomes concerns. Things to deal with, when and if they come up.

Originally Posted by cardinal
If my boundary is that H respects a certain quiet time in the house, does this include phone calls? Or is it on me to just stop letting the phone calls bother me?

Are the phone calls bothering you because of the noise volume, the hours they occur, the frequency, the duration?

If H is speaking reasonably quietly, in his room, let him be. Ignore him.

If his talking is too loud and you cannot sleep than you need to discuss it and see if he is agreeable to an amicable resolution. Perhaps he can text late at night instead.

Something else to consider is some MLCers can be rather flighty. Phone calls may wind down as something else takes their place.

Music, TV, and such, H can use ear pods and entertain himself to the cows come home.

If he refuses to use ear phones, you are right you can only control your self.

You want a boundary and enforcement without saying a word. When H is playing his music, not using his ear phones, late at night - go straight into his room. Sit down on a chair beside him. Look at everything he is doing. Start poking into stuff. He will probably freak out a bit and ask what the ___ are you are doing? Tell him you can’t sleep with him up making noise all night so you might as well sit in here and watch him. Pretty sure he’ll use his ear phones. smile

You can’t force him. You can make him uncomfortable, to have consequences to his actions, and he will want to change his behaviour.

I mentioned dog training so I’ll pass on something from four nights ago. My two dogs live in an outside pen. It is very large 80 by 120 feet. Has a huge tree in the middle. It is surrounded on two sides by bushes and trees. As such there are animals that scurry about at night.

For a while the dogs, one particularly, have been barking at night, at the noises in the trees. And probably the moon. I’ve banged on the window, opened the door and yelled at them, it works for like 5 minutes. Then back to barking.

They need something more immediate and consequential for a behaviour change. Something like a remote shock collar would work, but I don’t have one, and I don’t want to use one. Punishing isn’t needed. Correction is.

Anyhow, four nights ago barking started up at 3:00 am. Now, I get it, they’re dogs, they bark. I can live with a few minutes of barking and then they can go back to sleep, and so can I. However, no they barked and barked. Well the one dog more than the other.

So, I got up, left the lights off so not to interrupt the dogs, donned my bathrobe, went downstairs, slide on my boots, and went around the house to the pen. Me walking up to the pen in the dark lead to a cacophony of barking until they realize it was me.

I opened the pen and had the more vocal of the two come out and then closed the pen. I walked back to the house, the dog running about and scampering up onto the deck ahead of me, to the usual place they sit waiting for petting when they get out. I walked right passed her and went into the house, closing the door behind me.

I went to bed. Not with all that garb on. smile lol.

Half an hour later I got up. Redressed and went outside. Dog was at the door. Went around to the pen and let the dog back into her home. Haven’t had that barking since.

The dogs live in their pen. They don’t want to be outside of it, unless it is for walks and playtime and such. To be left just outside the fence was uncomfortable to her and consequential.

I too had to realize a fear in all this. I did fear what if the dog ran away. What if she got run over. What if.. what if... My plan was only for 30 minutes, and I know my dogs. Fear abated. Training accomplished. This boundary will be repeated if and when necessary.

Have a great day.

Could always get a shock collar for H....just kidding.

DnJ


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cardinal, I totally understand your fear. I'm been a sahm most of our M. I just recently started picking up some work, but my income is measly and def will not be able to sustain me. But I also know that this fear really has trapped me for a long time without me realizing it. The financial security being with H was a huge reason why I accepted the status quo of our failing M.

I recently listened to a podcast of The Daily by NYtimes. Here's the transcript of the part that really touched me:

Michael Barbaro:
I wonder what you want to say to somebody who has just lost their job, because there are now a lot of them, who may not be able to pay their rent, who may not be able to pay their mortgage, who may lose their housing, and who are really scared because of these economic consequences. What do you want them to hear you say?

Andrew Cuomo:
I would say first, I hope no one in your family, or no one you know, dies because of this. Because that’s what we’re trying to accomplish. I hope no one in your family dies. Second, we all understand the economic consequences. It’s not just you, it is everyone. And by the way, take solace in that fact. Because maybe if it was just you, you could be forgotten and left on the side of the road. It’s not just you. It’s everyone, and it’s everywhere. The Italians have an old saying that the rich man is the man who has health, right? If you have your health, you can figure anything else out. And it’s true. We’ll figure out the economy. I went through 9/11. Oh, downtown Manhattan is devastated, we have to rebuild, how do we do this? We’re alive, first of all. And if we are alive, we’ll figure out the rest. We’ll figure out the money. It’s making sure we live through this.


Maybe it's all political mumbo jumbo, but I'd like to believe it's true. We are alive. and whatever happens, we will figure it out.

Hope that helps. wink


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Wooba, thanks so much for sharing that. It does help me. I'd like to believe it's true, too. And I am thankful that H still has a job and is keeping us fed and housed, that I am healthy, that my family is still healthy. That's a heck of a lot to be grateful for.

It's evening here--H is in the other room watching a movie "with" his buddies (& wearing headphones); they're all online from their homes. He made a conference call with all of them again this morning, complete with mimosa in hand, and they played games for a while. My heart doesn't race as fast when I hear him on the phone, and I don't get as tense. I'm getting used to it, and of course it helps that I realize now it's just a friend thing, no AP there by the sound of it. So they bother me, really, because I'm jealous, and I want to be one of those people he calls, and I miss him. Time will help with indifference.

Last night raised my spirits, because H finally brought groceries into the house and cooked himself a nice meal. It's been ages since he's done that, and I was glad he was taking care of himself in that way. He seemed like he was actually enjoying cooking, rather than trying to get out of the kitchen as fast as possible. I was in the kitchen making cookies and we joked a bit. I asked what he was making. He offered me a bowl, and I said, thanks--maybe I will. I went back to my room to wait for the cookie timer, and a few minutes later he called in to let me know the meal was done if I wanted any. I was pleasantly surprised by the offer and did take some even though I'd planned to eat some leftovers. I wanted to reinforce good behavior, plus it smelled really good! smile He ate at the table/his new workspace with a movie playing, and I went back to my room. He called in to me a few times to tell me about the recipe, and when I went back in I thanked him for sharing and told him how much I'd enjoyed it. He said, sure, but I'm stealing some of your cookies!

It was a nice exchange, because we both enjoyed something the other had made. It felt like we were both kind humans living together again. He also let me know he'd ordered vanilla beans to make us more vanilla since we were out, which is something that takes weeks. A little of the pressure I'd been feeling dissolved: like, okay, he's probably not secretly resenting me for living here, he's not going to suddenly want to kick me out or something. Those are irrational fears. I think I'm still scarred by the months living with angry H, and with this shelter at home shift, and after the ear plugs comment, I was worrying he'd go back that direction.

But he has been respectful so far. I was also delighted to find that he fell asleep at 9 last night playing a video game, so I actually went to bed later than he did. He napped today too. Those signs that he is human do help with my anger.

He has gone out a few times, and I feel a little on edge that he's around people that could put my health at risk, but then he mentioned wearing a mask at a store once, and I heard him say to someone he was at the park with (a group, a person?), but sitting very far away. So I think I can rationalize that fear away too.

DnJ, thank you so much for spending time walking me and so many others through our fears and worries. You help more than you know.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Please remember I’m not arguing. Rationalizing against one’s own emotions is difficult. We actually fight against it.


Yes, and sometimes I don't even realize I'm fighting against it, and so I always appreciate you breaking things down and pointing this out! Your reminder to not taking his behavior personally helped. Maybe it's better that I am able to recognize some parts of him even in the midst of the lifestyle changes he's made--sometimes that's hard, because I can still see H in alien H, and it makes him seem so close, yet so far, but if he was unrecognizable, maybe that would mean he was that much more lost.

I like the dog parable, DnJ. That last line was especially wonderful, as it surprised me and made me start my day with a laugh. smile

The sea is calm right now, and I'm resting with the sun on my face. It'll probably get choppy again soon, and I'll be riding waves. I can do that (even if it means more venting here!).

Thank you for being here, everyone. Stay safe.


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A long day. H talks to so many friends, the group calls plus others from work. He is surrounded by friends even during this stay at home directive. He shared our favorite cookbook with one of them tonight, which got to me. He does say “our” sometimes when talking to his friends, meaning what belongs to me and him, which I find weird. There is no “our” right now, really, is there? He seems so happy, carefree, except for the venting he does about work (to me, a little; to them, a lot). He laughs a lot. I am stuck thinking he is just really happy and has the great life he wanted. It really doesn’t seem like I added much to it, if he is content now. I know I should be happy if he is happy. But I’m feeling sad and invisible instead. Riding another wave of emotion.


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I can't imagine what you're going through right now. Is there anyway you can block out his "sounds"?? play music in your space to drown out his sounds so you don't go crazy listening to what he's saying to his friends? I find myself eavesdropping whenever my H takes a call at home. I don't want even want to care but I can't help it.

His happiness has nothing to do with you. You didn't cause his unhappiness, nor did the absence of you contribute to his happiness. He is in his own world, don't let HIM determine YOUR happiness.


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My XH seemed really happy also

He came and went as he chose, had no concern for his young children
I like you was heartbroken..He had his freedom, new fantasy life ect..and he believed it was the right choice
He thought everything would work out

fast forward to a few years ago
He left a VM saying he messed up
He was at that time addicted to prescriptions and alcohol
He M ow, and had heard from several sources he was completely miserable

MY point

If it is true MLC...they cant get from here to happy from leaving a M
and detroying a family

Very rarely have I seen that if ever

Im not wishing your H misery...but chances are the replay(happy mode) will be short lived

Stay on your path...You will find happiness from doing this work a
letting go and growth and change

He will find more of the same


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I am so sorry you are stuck in the same space and get to hear all that. I used to try and "listen in" on my H. We still live in the same house with our kids. We are coridal now, which is nice. But my H told me a few days ago that he thought I was listening in on his conversations or people were breaking is confidence and telling me things. I admitted I was trying to listen in on his conversations because he never talks to me about anything and our trust has been nil since he had the affair.

The reality is, my H is dealing with a mild case of MLC. It's not as bad as many here are stating they are facing, but he still wants his space. Wants to run away. Or at least have a couple days to himself to "think things out" but with us all being stuck at home, he can't do that.

I am trying so very hard not to care myself. I need to focus on me, my kids, and getting a new job. I need to work on the parts of me I didn't like very much any more. I also needed to start connecting more with others. I have been doing that. Trying not to make him or my kids the only thing in my life. It hasn't been easy to force myself to stop listening in or checking his various social media/email. I am not doing that any more. I can't afford to.

I find that when I do, my mind gets crazy. My heart feels heavy and I can actually feel it start to harden. So I try very much to let my heart lead the way. I am reading a lot about forgiveness. I am studying detachment and self differentiation. I think I became too attached to our X+X title. It was like Bennifer or Bradjolina. We have to own who we are on our own first.

I know it is so very hard. Maybe buying a great headphone set and watching videos or listening to music so you aren't hearing it all day long? Or maybe singing to yourself? I am so sorry you are dealing with this. Please take care and find a way to detach. It's the only way through this. For any of us.


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Hi, wooba. Hi, peace. Hi, believe. Thank you so much for being here. Believe6, you sound strong and reflective. I haven’t been able to summon my usual ability to sort out my thoughts or be positive. I’m still in the middle of a feeling storm, so I haven’t yet posted on your thread. I feel too lost at the moment myself to be of much help, but I am reading along.

Wooba, I don’t want to care but can’t help it either sometimes.
Originally Posted by peacetoday

they cant get from here to happy from leaving a M

Originally Posted by wooba

His happiness has nothing to do with you. You didn't cause his unhappiness, nor did the absence of you contribute to his happiness.

I needed to be reminded of that. But why does it appear so much the opposite?

For some reason I wasn’t even thinking about replay, but that makes sense. Otherwise it appears as if the biggest difference in his life is that I am pretty much out of it—from my limited vantage point, it appears he hasn’t changed anything fundamental or internal that might bring him happiness, it’s just the new friends, the different lifestyle. But I’m not completely out of his life, am I? Something is stopping him from taking another step to make that happen. Would it mess too much with his fantasy bubble? My head hurts when I try to imagine the way he must split his life into two—me at home in one compartment, the new life he’s living in another (our old life in some very far away compartment). I don’t think he’ll have a chance to actually miss me while I’m still here in the background of his days. Sometimes I feel like the clock—or his clock--doesn’t start until that happens, until I’m not in the background.

I know I am on my own clock and shouldn’t worry about his since I have no control over it. But my mind more often wanders to him and everything I miss now that he’s here. For the first time in a while, I ached to share a meal with him again tonight—just to sit across from him at the table and enjoy good food together. Since he’s been on the phone so often, I think about the way he would say “my wife” when he was talking to someone, about the love I used to hear in those words. I’m thinking about this time last year, and how I had no idea BD was approaching in a few months. It’s mind-boggling how much has changed since then—I can hardly conceive of it. It still feels unreal a lot of the time. More unreal with the pandemic, like I slipped into a parallel life somewhere along the way.

I’ve been angry and hurting and wanting to protect myself and avoid him, so maybe I’ve been a little quieter, a little less jokey than the first couple of days. This morning I chose to ask how his mom was coping with the virus in another state. Just because he’s not asking about my parents doesn’t mean I can’t ask about his. I can be angry that he’s not and and say nothing myself, or I can share my compassion and concern, which I do feel, for my MIL and ask after her. I would ask after any roommate’s family. He did ask after mine, but not in a way that felt genuine. Then again, he doesn’t show that he’s worried or afraid for his family or that he has any deeper feelings about the pandemic. I asked after his work, which I know has been stressful for him, as it always was. He talked a bit about it, and I could hear the anger and frustration in his voice even as he was trying to minimize how much it was actually affecting him.

I’m thankful today was quiet up until now. I swing from crying in my room and feeling like I’m falling apart, how can I get through the next hour, I’m out of strength, to calm. Probably because I’m exhausted. Oh no--the phone call is starting and he’s been drinking, so I think it will be time for headphones on my part. He’s got a couple of edibles now too and he’s definitely louder, happy and loopy, so much so that the headphones will only muffle. I guess it’s easier to be happy (temporarily) when you’ve got some help!


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Update: He's pretty gone. Calling one person after another to talk loudly. He was in the kitchen and I asked him to go to the other room for a minute because I needed to give the cat medicine, and he was too freaked out to go in. A couple minutes later he said to the person on the phone, "It's not ideal, but what are you gonna do?" And then, "Yeah, I hate it." I'm afraid he was talking about sharing the house with me. It could have been work, because he's also been talking about working from home. He's not acting like he hates the situation, but he could very well just be hiding his feelings from me. I went back by his room after he got off the phone and said the kitchen was free again, and I hoped he wasn't mad that I asked him to leave in the middle of his call. He said, It's fine.

I know I shouldn't have said anything to him about asking him to leave the room--I was being polite. Now he's playing his music loud, which he hasn't done in days. He's definitely operating from a messed up place... but if he hates being here with me so much, IF that's what he was saying... I don't know.

If he keeps playing his music, it makes me thinks he's challenging me. But also he's probably not thinking that clearly.


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Well, H turned off his music when I turned my light off to go to bed. Today he’s acting normal and friendly as usual. Good, because a little goodwill in the house at this time is appreciated. It’s not about me, and maybe the words I overheard weren’t either. At any rate, he’s not desperate enough to bring anything up with me. Just more of his teen behavior, I suppose, and his trying to stay happy. It does hurt to see him like that.

Anyway, I’m making more cinnamon rolls. smile


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Hi Cardinal! I’ve been gone for awhile and am slowly catching up with everybody and their current situations. Huge (((((hugs))))) to you. I can see in your last few posts that things have become difficult due to proximity with the live in MLCer ...you know how much I can relate. Things have definitely become more difficult with being very limited in getting out of the house and GAL that way anyway. It’s easy for us to let the focus drift back to the stranger in our house and all their crazy behaviour when it’s in our face all the time. I too am struggling with how happy and content he behaves ...whistling and singing to himself CONSTANTLY. I don’t get it. Is it part of MLC behaviour- their mask of ”everything is great, everything is fine, everything is normal?”
I hate that you can’t escape the loud game play and phone calls...I can relate again. I’m working from home right now and the other day he was playing a game so loud that people on the conference call were asking who is being shot at???!!!!!
I think I remember you saying that the weather is ok where you are and that you garden....can you spend more time out in your yard? How do you remove yourself from his constant upsetting display of behaviour at least for parts of the day?

I don’t have much to offer advice wise but I’m hear for hugs and understanding ....you still got this even when you don’t feel you do...you do ...more than you know. (((Cardinal)))

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YAYAYAYA! To you and your cinnamon rolls...that’s what I’m talkin’ ‘bout...if only we could send them via internet chat rooms!!!!

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Cardinal,
I keep saying over and over... detach detach detach. Kind Kind Kind. Peace Peace Peace. Love Love Love. Mostly this is for me. But I am trying to remind myself to be that way regardless. The only thing we can control is our own mind. We can't control anyone else. It is so very hard, I know. For those of us who still live with MLCer, we can get enmeshed with them. I can sometimes feel my H's feelings. I can almost hear his thoughts, but then I remind myself... it is mostly my assumptions and my projections. His eyes, his facial expressions, even his demeanor may seem to say something, but then I know that he assumes something about how I look too or what I say.

So I am trying to sink to that. He will think and do what he will do. If he decides to share what he things, I'll listen, validate and if appropriate kindly share my own perception or what I was really thinking. He can believe me or not.

I will not let my own mind poison me anymore. If the thought hurts, I will do what Byron Katie's the Work says... I will question my own stressful thoughts and see if there is a higher truth. It isn't easy. It [censored] to be the one to have to do it. It would be easier if they would just do what we want, but we can't control them. Nor should we want to. I don't want to be controlled or told what I actually think or actually mean.

I must work on me and only on me. Do I want peace or do I want conflict? Even in my own mind? I want peace. I need to let go of my stressful thoughts. It's the hardest thing in the world.
Blessings


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H has remained friendly. Posting here because it’s taking all of my willpower not to go say something to him about how he’s obviously smoking pot right now. It smells. And that’s not something old H ever would have done. I really, really want to go say, Do you see yourself? This is not you. Please find a healthier way of coping. It hurts my heart to see this. I also really, really, want to tell his mom, because I know there’s no way she’d think this is normal. I know none of those things would do any good. But the urge is strong.


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(Also, to clarify, I wish I could talk to his mom because I’m worried about him, and we both love him, and it would feel like something just to be able to worry together. I’m not going to contact her, but that’s just a wish I have.)

Last edited by cardinal; 03/28/20 05:21 AM.

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I’ve wanted to say those things to my H many times...

“Do you hear yourself?”
“Do you see yourself?”

I’m glad you are posting here instead of asking him those questions. Because the answer most likely is no, they do not/cannot see things the way we do. It is frustrating...I know.

Hang in there!


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Thanks, Wooba. I feel like my teenager had gotten in with the “wrong crowd”! Though he had friends pre-BD who smoked occasionally and wasn’t into it himself. I guess he’s just looking for what makes him feel better, and that’s alcohol or pot or these friends. He already has some form of asthma. There’s no time when it would be appropriate for me to tell him I’m worried about him, right? He would either get mad or laugh it off probably. All I can do is pray he will find his way.


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The health thing is one thing that I’ve let go awhile ago. Both mental & physical (his). I’ve done my part post BD, I’ve scheduled his check ups and suggested him to see a therapist. But again, ultimately it is out of our control. Nowadays I would only tell him to stay away from covid and don’t bring that back to the house. No longer about him but more about whatever you do, don’t get US sick.

Lol.


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Yes, that’s right. And while I see H escaping/running from his feelings through these behaviors (and I wonder what the heck IC is helping him with—I hope something), he would just see it as the new him. It’s just so unbelievable that this is the same person I married. Some day I’ll get to acceptance. If you would have told me two years ago in 2020 H would be smoking pot and people would be stockpiling toilet paper, I would have laughed. This lockdown period, however long it lasts, is going to be interesting, probably with lots of ups and downs for both H and for me. It’s just been a week and I’ve had to confront so many aspects of alien H, but I’ve also had more interaction with him, engagement from him, the kind I usually only get once a week when he’s home all day.

Thanks for chatting with me tonight, wooba! And no kidding about needing to protect your family from exposure through H. Stay safe.

Last edited by cardinal; 03/28/20 06:22 AM.

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I had to address rent increase with H today, because I realized we needed to change the amount on our auto bill pay and couldn't do it from my end due to some weird bank thing, even though we have a joint account. He hadn't seen the email the landlord sent and, to my surprise, said, "That's expensive. That svcks." I said, Yeah, but it's still less than every other place on the market.

An hour later he came outside to tell me he emailed the landlord, told her we both lost our PT jobs (guess he forgot mine was FT) and that we're getting a divorce, and she agreed to not raise the rent. He said, "Just to let you know." I didn't act phased and didn't really say anything. He went back inside.

Why have hope? Remind me again how this could ever work out in the future. H seems normal sometimes and lost others. He hasn't brought up D since November. I am spiraling and don't know what to do. I don't understand why he won't file or talk about it (until now), what he thinks the near-future is going to look like (MO--when? He clearly has no idea how expensive the market is now if he thought our rent was going to be expensive.

Ugh.


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Cardinal,

There will be times when you will see a bit of normal/clarity w/your h. Then there will be other times that he is off in wild blue yonder.

Maybe the reason that he has not brought up a D recently is because you aren't pressuring him for answers to questions that he really doesn't have an answer to right now. Generally, they rant and rave about a divorce when they feel pressures to straighten up and act like their old selves.

I would suggest that you take a moment and just breathe! He's still there and he did speak to the landlord about it. BTW, the landlord may have already opted not to raise the rent because of the current health crisis and not because your h spilled his guts to him about the situation going on between the two of you.

Sit quietly, the answers will come when you least expect them. The more you try to figure him out, the more frustrated and anxious you will become. Take it one day at a time because the past is gone, today is a present/gift and tomorrow needs to be allowed to reveal itself in due time.

Stay safe and continue as you have been.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
cardinal #2891015 03/30/20 07:42 PM
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I’m planning to call the landlord and thank her and tell her I’m planning on staying no matter what. I don’t want her to think she needs to find new tenants.

I’m now angry that H didn’t tell me beforehand he was emailing her to say we’re getting a D and ask her not to raise the rent. We are both tenants here. Should I ask him to include me in communication w/ her in the future? Or just tel the landlord my intentions and let it go?

He sounded angry at the landlord for dating to raise the rent once in 8 years. Maybe he’s stressed about money and what D will mean financially and so he just fired that email off to her? Maybe he’s more stressed about everything than he appears and this brought it out?

I really wanted to say, oh, this divorce is still happening? When are you actually going to act? I don’t want to just go back to pretending nothing is wrong, having polite convo with him, acting like we’re friends, etc.


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cardinal #2891017 03/30/20 08:02 PM
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If I were in your shoes, I would call the landlord and advise her that you are planning to remain a tenant no matter what happens. I would also thank her for not raising the rent at this time. No matter what you say to your h, he is going to do the exact opposite of what you want. So, I would let it go. Is there any way that you can ask the landlord to keep you in the loop?

Well, of course he sounded angry...how dare she raise the rent after 8 years! That's additional money that he wasn't counting on spending on something that isn't fun and exciting. He's not thinking clearly and please remember, they are emotional and it doesn't take much to set them off on a tangent. You will probably see/hear more of this in the months ahead. He's feeling trapped and he won't admit it, but scared too. He's seeing people in hospitals, people dying and the world is out of control right now because of the virus. There is no order and until things settle back into the "normal" stage, his plans for the future are on hold and that's driving him nuts.

They love to announce to the world that they are getting a divorce. Reminds me of a boy/girl scout getting a merit badge and how proud that they are of earning it. They want the world to know that they are finally going to be free to do whatever they want...unfortunately if a divorce should come to pass, that sweet little euphoria high that they have will eventually go away, usually about 6-9 months. The real world bursts into that la la land and responsibilities and bills, etc. still need to be paid. Can't live in la la land forever and that's when you'll see a stressed and unhealthy man walking around. They can't burn the candle at both ends because it will eventually catch up w/them.

So, for now, just continue as you have been and do not allow his announcing his plans for a divorce to rattle you. The courts are closed and nothing is going to happen for a few months. Poor man, close quarters will absolutely drive him up the wall.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
cardinal #2891018 03/30/20 08:04 PM
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Sorry—still going. I feel like he’s treating me like a kid again, “taking care” of things with the landlord and then telling me “just so I know.” IMO she should be able to raise rent whether or not we’re D—if he can’t deal with the increase, that’s his problem, not hers. The financial crisis is another story, but I think he was just throwing out anything he could to get sympathy and does seem to enjoy telling others about D and probably weaving some story about how he would have done it but he can’t kick me out or something. Does anyone he talks to see through this? He has a different excuse every time for 10 months in why he hasn’t filed.

I want to call our mutual friend to vent, the one I usually talk to over dinner, but I know he’s still hanging out with her. Maybe that’s not a good idea now. I know she thinks he’s being ridiculous. I just feel like I have no one to talk to here, and it’s SO hard being in the house with him already.

I know DBing is for me and not the M, but in moments like this I just throw up my hands cry. I can’t believe this is the person I married. I can’t believe all of his good memories are buried. I can’t believe I don’t know him anymore.

I know you said to breathe, Job. There’s so much stress from every angle now. I’m trying. I’m trying to remember I just have to outlast this, but it doesn’t seem like there will be an end.


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cardinal #2891020 03/30/20 08:23 PM
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Can you take a walk? Can you take the car and drive around for a while just to have a change of scenery? Being cooped up w/an irrational man/child will absolutely drive you nuts. You need to have an outlet...even if it's going to a drive thru and getting a cup of coffee.

Do not call your mutual friend. If she's still hanging out w/him, she may tell him about the conversation. It's best to continue posting here to vent and talk to us.

They do like to get sympathy from others because they want people to think that they are the victims. Eventually people will put two and two together and come to realize he's off the wall, but it's going to take some time for that to happen. We, the rational people, know that if you want a divorce, you think about it, do the research and do the hard work to get it completed. MLCers are off the wall and bounce around so much because their brains are fried or should I say that all the wiring is knotted up and short circuiting.

Your h is trying to control the money situation and by crying to the landlord, she may have felt bad about the entire situation, but you can follow up and speak to her about your staying there regardless if looney tune does.

Find a way to get out of the place for a bit. You will feel so much better getting out and getting some fresh air.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
cardinal #2891030 03/30/20 09:07 PM
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Thank you, job. It is so necessary to be able to vent here in these times especially! I really appreciate your rational responses. I was already on a walk and was able to talk to my mom. I take lots of walks now to get out of the house. I called the landlord too and said that we appreciate her gesture and that no matter what happens with H, I plan on staying. I also asked her to keep both of us in the loop. She wished me luck and said let's revisit this in 6 months. They really are amazing landlords, and I can't believe H was upset about it. But you're right--that's less fun money for him and more reality.

Since I got back from the walk H has been extra friendly and chatty, acting like nothing is weird. I acted normal as well. How can he think it's normal to bring up D, then not go on to explain where he is in the process of D or what he envisions once the world is back to normal? Or why he hasn't filed when he said he wouldn't wait until after Christmas? It's mind-boggling. I'm working on accepting it. I know that he isn't rational, but it again doesn't sink in fully when he seems so rational in other ways.

I appreciate the friendliness because I don't want to go back to angry, cold H, but it's also feels like he's being friendly because none of this really bothers him. He doesn't love me. I don't fully believe it, because I can remember what it was like before. But that doesn't matter in the face of his conviction otherwise. D is just another bargaining chip with our landlord--or maybe he just felt like telling someone new because he's stir-crazy. Sometimes I think he has to think he's taking action.

And job, what you say about the state of the world is so true. Maybe he is scared somewhere inside. So many people are dying, and there's no hiding from the fact that life is always fragile and tenuous, and even moreso now. I'm still grieving hard over the loss of our M--the grief seems fresh again because life is so short. It makes me want to reach out to the people I love, including H and his mom. I'd already been missing him and even his mom when I woke up this morning. But H instead brings up D.

MLC, breakdown, crisis. I don't know. I guess it all seems like they will never come back until they actually do start to come back. I have to outlast. But this pandemic makes me even more sad and impatient.


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And now our cat has a tumor that needs to be removed. Wednesday. May or may not be malignant. These cats are like our children. H was lightly concerned and then said he hopes it’s not a lot of money. It is. I started crying and went in the other room. He got on the phone with a friend. I left. I don’t know how to face this alone. I was already feeling bad. I don’t know if H can’t add this to his plate and show proper love and concern or not. I had to put another pet to sleep this summer by myself and H showed no feeling until he had to bury it and then he fell apart. I’m so exhausted. I can’t face going home and crying by myself in my room.

Last edited by cardinal; 03/31/20 12:39 AM.

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cardinal #2891046 03/31/20 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by cardinal
Since I got back from the walk H has been extra friendly and chatty, acting like nothing is weird. I acted normal as well. How can he think it's normal to bring up D, then not go on to explain where he is in the process of D or what he envisions once the world is back to normal? Or why he hasn't filed when he said he wouldn't wait until after Christmas? It's mind-boggling. I'm working on accepting it. I know that he isn't rational, but it again doesn't sink in fully when he seems so rational in other ways.

Hi Cardinal, I’m so sorry if I sound like a broken record about how similar our situations are. H in the span of 2 days went from asking if I wanted to share some wine, dinner etc...to going shopping for us and picking up stuff on my list (I’m at a high risk level for the virus) AND even offered to get stuff for a fam member in quarantine. When he got home he couldn’t wait to tell me a “joke” he made and referred to me boldly as his EXwife. HILARIOUS I’m still laughing. (Not) ...we don’t even have a SA. I get the anxiety that comes with seeing the rational behaviour mixed with irrational and it makes me also wonder what the heck other people are believing. Unfortunately, it doesn’t really matter...people will believe what they want. I have to constantly remind myself of that one.

You prob remember how my H has been literally harassing me to get a lawyer since month 3 I’d say. I got one over 3 weeks ago and she contacted him. What do you think happened?? CRICKETS .....nothing. It’s taking every ounce of me to not say so where’s your lawyer? When does she plan on responding? Harass him like he harassed me. Instead I say nothing because I know he’ll have some smart a$$ answer that will just upset me. Two days ago he decided he needed to be “productive” (his words) and proceeded to buy boxes and has been taking apart and packing up the garage and his bedroom ever since...and then tonight he asks me if I would like him to do extra food for my dinner. I honestly can’t keep up ...so I’ve stopped. Yes it still bugs me and hurts everyday, but I let it all go past my eyes or in one ear and out the other and just remind myself that I don’t want whoever this person is right now. I’m the prize ....just like YOU are the prize.
Originally Posted by cardinal
But this pandemic makes me even more sad and impatient.

This will sounds silly and my intention is not to make any light of the seriousness of the current situation the world and we all find ourselves in ...but I’ve kinda started to look at the past few months of my MLC H situation as a training lesson in EXTREME patience for what we are now facing globally. We must all shut down to survive. His MLC now seems like a serious game of survivor OUTWIT, OUTLAST, and OUTPLAY. As many on here advise play for yourself, not him. Protect yourself both financially but just as importantly emotionally. This situation is brutal enough without now being forced to be stuck in the same house....truthfully we couldn’t write a better movie script. Find your hobbies, make new ones, I’m huge into up-cycling right now...I love being crafty. Clean the crap outta things around your house. Garden when you can, read when you can’t. Allow this time to completely indulge one person - YOURSELF.
I wish we could do that ‘wife swap’ show and just trade our Hs ....they could live together and play video games and the LBSs could live together and get on with life.
You’ve got this Cardinal - just get the focus back to you.

cardinal #2891047 03/31/20 12:54 AM
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Oh nooooo Cardinal you are really getting slammed right now. I wish I could hug you for real. I’m so sorry to hear about your cat...Do you have a close friend or family member you could lean on and not rely on any emotion from H? You don’t need this extra stress at such an awful time. I’m thinking of you and hope things go ok on Wed. I’ll stay online for a bit if you just wanna chat back and forth ..... (((Cardinal)))

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Cardinal,

I am so sorry to read about your cat. Your fur baby needs the surgery and if it's removed, he/she may live for quite some time. Will they keep the cat for a few days or allow him/her to return home the next morning? I'm keeping you and your family, but most importantly your fur baby in my thoughts and prayers right now.

Kindly asked if you have a close friend or family member that you can lean on now. This is the time to call someone and have a chat. You've got a lot going on and you need that emotional support.

Take care, stay safe and know that we all care about you and will be thinking of your fur baby tomorrow.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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cardinal, I'm sorry that you are feeling down. For him to announce to the landlord about D is definitely sh*tty. It sounds like he just want to exercise power in whatever way he could...whether it was to make the landlord to not raise the rent or to announce D.

Who knows what these WAS are thinking. Remember they are on their own timeline, which is WAY different from yours.

I too would choose H to be friendly over anything else even though the fakeness kills me inside. We are not best friends. Everything is not rainbow and sunshine. But it's easier to play that game than to deal with him raging and blaming me for xyz. I think the important thing is that you know what it is like when your H is being authentic. When he's not, don't worry about it. He is probably confused himself. If he cannot even be authentic to himself, how can you expect him to be authentic to you?

Lastly, I'm sorry about your cat. I often wish that I had a pet to lean on in this time of crisis because they are the ones who will love you with endless loyalty. ;(

hugs!


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cardinal #2891185 04/01/20 08:34 PM
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Just checking in Cardinal; hope you are doing ok and that things went/go okay at the vet today.

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How is kitty? Praying that the surgery went well and kitty is doing okay.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Hey Cardinal,
Been thinking about you and the kitty. Hope you are well. Or at the very least surviving. I'm so sorry about the pile on right now.

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Cardinal, I pray you are doing ok and your fur baby is better. The weekend is almost here. Find a way to take care of yourself. Sending prayers and good thoughts your way.


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Fate whispers to the warrior, "You can not withstand the storm" And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm." ~Unknown
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Cardinal-I am sorry to hear about the cat. I hope things get better. I’m still here. Sending hugs!

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Everyone, thank you so much for your well wishes and for checking in on me. It means so much. You all know more than anyone what it’s like to go through this craziness, and it made me feel a little less alone. I finally have time for an update. Between already feeling overpowered by grief and annoyed with H, I was struggling with the cat news. After making no move to comfort me when I cried and told him the cat would need surgery, H showed some concern and seemed closer to himself about the cat leading up to surgery on Wednesday, which went well. He made me breakfast one day this week because he had “extra” ingredients, which was a kind gesture. We’ve had to separate our two cats because one is showing aggression toward the one who returned from the vet, which means one is with H (the most time he’s spent with it in 10 months!) and the recovering cat is with me. There’s one door that separates these two areas of our small house. And then last night I thought I noticed the cat’s stitches starting starting to come undone, so I asked H to come take a look. I needed help to stop the cat from bothering the area while I tried to get ahold of our vet after hours. H was suddenly very put out and blamed me for not getting a larger cone for the cat, even though I went with what the vet suggested. I was already super stressed and worried about the stitches but managed to not respond to him in anger. I always try to avoid asking him for anything because I know he’s not capable of showing me much empathy now, but I was still a bit mad at him anyway.

I got ahold of the vet and talked to her again today and everything is okay for now. The spot was cancerous but not the kind that spreads, and the vet thinks all was removed. I’m so thankful for that. The surgery was expensive but we were able to pay for it out of our joint account, and I am so thankful for that too. When I told him how much it would be, H said, “At least we don’t have a rent increase now!” True. Even if I don’t like the way he talked to the landlord. Maybe it is for the best.

The pattern seems to be he stays in his room most of the day on the weekends. One thing this lockdown has shown me is that he still has mood swings, still isn’t himself at all even if he appears that way to others or even to me at times. It’s still hard to witness. I’ve had a harder time holding onto any hope for the future lately, because he just seems so different than the man I knew, and he’s done such a thorough job of making us distant acquaintances. Our M and even our friendship as it was feels so far away. If I feel this way, I can see how it would seem almost nonexistent to him.

Originally Posted by wooba
If he cannot even be authentic to himself, how can you expect him to be authentic to you?

This hits the nail on the head, wooba! It would do me good to keep this in mind. He’s escaped from himself to a self that doesn’t care and just wants to have fun and freedom.

May, if you’re reading, I did attempt to start my own sourdough starter yesterday, so we’ll see how that goes! Wayfarer, thanks for your concern too.

Hugs, everyone. Thank you for keeping me afloat. I am thankful for all of you. I should have some time in the next few days to read up on your threads. Take care of yourselves!


Last edited by cardinal; 04/05/20 12:13 AM.

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Cardinal,

I am glad the surgery went well for your cat. Hopefully your cat will live a long, happy and healthy life. Pets are family and thank goodness you were able to get your cat in and have the surgery. It's difficult keeping an animal quiet and settled when they are use to being on the go and yes, kitty knows that something isn't quite right and wants to lick and pull those stitches out. Keep a close on your fur baby and hopefully everything will help up nicely.

As for your h, he's very lost, but I am glad he offered a bit of support for you and your cat. If your vet recommended a certain size cone, then that is what you needed. Animals figure out how to get around those cones, so do not feel bad about the size and the pulling at the stitches. Where there is a will, there is a way.

I hope your sourdough starter turned out well.

Hang in there. You are doing better than what you think you are. You are stronger than you think. Here's to a speedy recovery for kitty.


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Hi, Glad your cat is ok

You are doing well, and although pretty difficult now, and especially under this global situation,
more will be revealed and things will shift for the better in time
no matter what he chooses

hang in


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Hello cardinal

Nice to see kitty is on the mend. She’ll soon be running around the place again.

I am glad you spoke directly to your landlord about the rent thing and H. Smart to let her know your intent not to move, regardless of H.

You cannot trust H to do what you expect. Stuff like rent, and other things that are important and need an adult involved - do them yourself. Then just inform H.

I get it, joint accounts and financial involvements make it harder to navigate. Going forward try to just let H know what is going on and what you are doing about it. Something like, I got an email from landlord and our rent is increasing. I am going to talk to her and let her know that’s fine. (or ask if we can increase it by half, or whatever).

Did you get the auto bill figured out?

Being locked down is tough and anxiety does rise - especially with a MLCer in the same house. Getting out for a change of scenery is a good idea. Like job said, even if it’s just for a cup of coffee from the drive thru.

Stay strong. You’re doing well.

DnJ


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Yay on the sourdough starter! I ordered three bags of flour two weeks ago and they're finally coming today so can get back to baking... Although I've already put like 5 lbs on during this quarantine from all the snacking and drinking I've been doing. UGH. Anyway, let me know how it goes!

Really glad to hear about your kitty. Mine passed away two years ago now at age 17 and it turns out my younger daughter is allergic, so we have no pets. I really miss having a kitty-- there is something about a pet that loves you unconditionally and their biggest demand is to be pet or fed or a lap to sit on that feeds your soul.

I think you're doing really well and staying strong in a crazy, crazy, situation. I also think it was great that you connected directly with the landlord yourself, and the more you can do to carve out what is best for YOU in this situation, the better, disconnected from anything to do with your H. I think it shows great strength and progress that you didn't let yourself get baited in the conversation about the size of your cat's cone... and while you are totally justified in being mad at him about it still, if you can just let it go and not let his ridiculousness affect you I think it will help you continue to detach.

Are there any other things you can do for yourself while on lockdown?

xx M


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Hey Cardinal- I hope you are well. It is a special time of year at least for me. I know it's hard to live with someone who you knew better than you knew yourself and now they are a total stranger. The thing I realized too is that my H is a stranger to himself too.

I know he is. When I stop looking at him wanting to see the man I knew, I see the one he is now and the pain in his eyes is debilitating. He is so lost. Even when he is withdrawn, angry, resentful (hasn't been like that in a while as we don't talk enough for me to see that), I can see how very hurt and tortured he is.

Seeing that, knowing that his pain is at least as deep as mine, and maybe even worse because at least I can acknowledge where it is stemming from and what I need to do to address me and heal me... but he really can't. He is so very lost so very confused about how to even begin. When we tried to share his pain in MC, he couldn't really articulate it. He is avoidant so his pain will go on and on even possibly longer than it should because he can't address it.

All they are trying to do to avoid the pain will be useless. Because the pain is internal, in their mind and their soul. So until they know this and are willing to look inside versus outside (i.e. OW, drugs, friends, etc), they will be tortured and lost.

I hate that we are all suffering and going through this. I hate that so many of us are broken. But I also know we can be reborn, remade into something better. Something new. Something so strong that nothing will ever threaten us again. I am praying that for you and for all of us.

Until then, take care of kitty. Take care of you. Let H do what he does. Let him go and embrace YOU.

Blessings!


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Happy Easter, friends! Thank you for your concern and well wishes. I have thought of you all often while I've been going about day to day life here, finally able to shift more into focusing on me, spending time in the garden, taking long walks, and doing more baking. I've had moments of real contentment, because this is where I want to be--at home with my kitties, in the yard helping beautiful things grow. It may be strange to say, but I am grateful to have been essentially temporarily laid off from my job, even if the financial aspect of that is worrisome. I like my life here at home. I missed it. H sometimes makes it harder to focus on the joy I can find in the middle of all this uncertainty, but I can still find it.

The cats are doing well, I found a 10 lb bag of flour (May!) at the store and was gifted a sourdough starter and a bouquet of chard from a friend, and H has been mostly friendly. His loooong phonecalls to friends pretty quickly went from all the time to intermittent.

After mentioning D to our landlord, he seemed to be even more at ease. One night I was trying to figure out what to use as a litter box for the recovering cat, who was no longer able to fit into the old one with his cone. H was happily cooking his dinner in the kitchen, totally unconcerned that the cat had resorted to peeing on the floor, and I was half talking to myself, half talking to him--What else could work as a litter box that I haven't considered? What else could I try?

He said, "I don't know, hon, I don't think there's anything we can do."

His normal exasperated response would be to use my name. He hasn't called me "hon" or anything of the sort in 10 months. He didn't even realize he'd done it. Then he brought me bites of his food to try as I was still dealing with the cat.

Another time he let me know he ordered a new nonstick pan because ours was starting to fall apart. When it came in the mail, he told me it was a different kind than before and that, "It was more expensive, but it should last forever."

I wanted to say--Oh, and that matters because when we get the D you're planning on we'll both still get to share the pan?

But he still has periods of moodiness and withdraws on the weekends to his room. He's been vaping weed more and more frequently throughout the week. It still bothers me that he sees nothing weird about this, that he thinks he's living the kind of life that will make him happy. I was reading through the thread on MLC CanBird posted and this stuck out to me: "I'd describe what I witnessed as being not a nervous breakdown but a breakdown in an established identity." For a while here I was thinking H was doing better, but I think it was just that I only saw him when he seemed somewhat normal, and he was still able to go out and do what he wanted with his friends, stay out late, etc. Now there's no denying he's just as lost as he seemed before Christmas. Sure, he seems happy a lot of the time, but then why all the drinking and vaping?

Believe, what you say here seems true:
Originally Posted by Believe6
He is avoidant so his pain will go on and on even possibly longer than it should because he can't address it. All they are trying to do to avoid the pain will be useless. Because the pain is internal, in their mind and their soul. So until they know this and are willing to look inside versus outside (i.e. OW, drugs, friends, etc), they will be tortured and lost.


Even though when I first started posting here, many vets mentioned drugs were pretty common, I never would have thought H would end up vaping! I told my friend today that it's no wonder I sometimes doubt myself and start to think I'm the crazy one: H sees nothing out of the ordinary about his behavior. I feel like I'm witnessing the breakdown of his established identity, while he's saying, "No, I've always been this person. You just didn't see it. There's nothing weird at all about my behavior."

And I sometimes start to believe him. Maybe this was always who he was at his core... It's like I'm being brainwashed some days!

It's like he's so convinced he's got everything figured out: D happening (at some undetermined future point...?), his awesome friends who he can't wait to get back to...

But it seems more likely to me he's still compartmentalizing all of his feelings and using pot to help him escape even further. I mean, it's not normal for an adult to suddenly think, hey, maybe I'll take up vaping!, is it? It stinks (literally!), but I haven't mentioned it or drawn any attention at all to the fact that it's out of character for him. I just open a couple of windows and try to stay in my own world, and pray that at some point he will look inside, as Believe says. I can imagine a point in the future when he starts to withdraw from his mom, as he's always been hyper focused on pleasing her as well, and can imagine her reaching out to me to ask what's going on with him. I can also imagine her not realizing how different he is now, because she lives states away and I am 99% sure he doesn't talk to her about what's going on in his life. Nothing has changed in that department, I'm sure.

One last thing: his birthday is coming up at the end of the month. I would not be surprised if he gets moodier or withdraws completely that weekend or decides to spend hours on the phone or maybe even go out and see a friend. But I do plan to ask when it approaches if he'd like me to bake a little cake, as he did make me a cake for my birthday a month after BD. I think it's likely he'll say no, because he'll be mad he can't be out partying like he'd like, and who knows what feelings a birthday will bring up in him. But I figure there's no harm in offering out of kindness.

I better go check on my laundry. Sending the best to all of you this week!


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Cardinal, I was listening to a podcast and they talked about MLCers. As we know, they all go through their phases and part of that is the return of various "children" from their past or people they used to be. Even if he didn't do drugs as a teenager, there may have been a part of him that wanted to. Now that the teenager is back, he is trying things he wasn't able to do then. And since in some states weed (and definitely vaping) is legal, he may not even see it as a "drug" per se.

The thing we all tend to do, being sequestered with our H's, is to keep looking at what they are doing. It's hard just to focus on what we are doing. I continue to read more and more about how I can heal myself. I had a friend text me something that really bothered me.

I was telling her how hurt I was and how I am struggling some days with even wanting to ever wake up. She basically told me that I am wasting my life. And this is from someone who is my H's friend much longer than mine. She told me that even if our marriage doesn't make it, I shouldn't waste a day not being happy.

Now, I don't agree with her overall assessment, that only being happy is the way to be. I do believe that life is meant to be lived in all the emotional highs and lows we may experience. We can't just be "happy" and pretend that the pain we are experiencing can't teach us things. But her text did make me think that if I wallow in the pain without allowing it to teach me anything, then I really am wasting my life.

I think that's why we are supposed to stop focusing on their issues and their journey, and rather, focus on our own. We have to stop looking at them because then we aren't looking inside us. Who are we really? What makes us happy? What pisses us off? What did we love to do? What have we given up doing because our spouse didn't really like it or were annoyed by it?

Who would we be without him/her? What would we do if they had died and not just abandoned us (even if they still live with us)?

You are a beautiful person, Cardinal. One who deeply cares. Start caring more about you. We can't keep analyzing why our H is doing what they do that is so opposite to who we knew them to be. Yes, they aren't the person we fell in love with.

They may NEVER be that person again. But WE can be the person we are in love with. WE can be the person who no one will ever want to leave because we own who we are.

You are worth the effort to get to know yourself. Do you like singing loud in the shower? Writing poetry? Reading mysteries or sappy love stories? Do you like funny cat videos and travel blogs? Who are you really? Figure that out and share her with us. I want to know Cardinal... the one who is on the other side of this whole journey.

Because if we believe Einstein, then the future is already here and that Cardinal already exists in her full and glorious wholeness.

Blessings!


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I am sure you're right, Believe--he was the perfect son in high school and college, and I think this is all part of his late rebellion. It's legal, and there's no way he sees anything weird or wrong with it (even though old H would have). I try to have no judgement, and I know I'm failing at that in some ways. But then an article pops up in the NYT about how smoking and vaping (weed or tobacco) puts you at higher risk for Covid-19, and he already is in a higher risk group, and I just... am not so detached that I don't still worry about him and feel sad that he's in this state.

I'm also a bit bothered by your friend's statement. I tend to agree with you, that happy is not the only way to be. In fact, that's what my H firmly believed: that he was happy about everything in his life and it was pointless to waste time being unhappy. Everyone thought he was the happiest guy in the world, including him, including me. Cue BD. He was wrong. I was wrong. It seems clear now that he didn't know how to handle or express any other emotion, so he let all of his anger and sadness and disappointment out at me, and now he thinks he's back in happy land again—on the surface.

So I think the pressure to move on from grief--to be happy no matter what, can also sometimes be unhelpful. I think permission is sometimes more helpful. Of course, it is all different for each individual.

Thank you for your questions, Believe. Your post brought up a lot of thoughts and feelings for me, and so this is in some way a response to it, but it's more me working out my own feelings at the moment on grieving and discovering myself, so don't feel this is all directed at you. smile

I understand there is a big push here to stop focusing on our spouses and to turn the focus back to ourselves. I can only control myself, so that is where I want my focus to be. I also don't want to feel bad for having days where I am distracted by something H does or says. It's been a big adjustment having him here in the house 95% of the time, and it took me a couple of weeks to begin focusing more on myself again. There are a hundred small things I find fulfillment and joy in each day, and I am thankful for that.

I'm still grieving, angry some days, all of that. I'm on my own timeline there. I am still grieving the fact that H couldn't vocalize any of his unhappiness until he'd already decided the M was over and that I was the root of it, that H went from an incredibly generous, loving, and kind partner and friend to, well, you know, the opposite, and that I never saw it coming; I'm still working on coming to terms with the fact that I will most likely never have a child with him and possibly never have a child at all, because of so many things, but also just plain timing of all of this. Maybe some people reach acceptance faster. That's okay. I think it will come when it comes. For me, this is where the sit quietly and wait advice comes in.

I believe I can both be going through waves of sadness, frustration, exhaustion, and confusion related to H and be moving forward at the same time. I think there is a difference between getting permanently stuck in those feelings and recognizing them when they come and working to process them, which is, I think, a lot of what I do when I post here. I know some questions will never be answered, but I still want to voice them. I do tend to focus on H here, because this is the only place where people understand intimately the craziness I am going through. It's really helpful for me to have the repeated outside validation that 1) This is not normal; 2) I didn't cause it; 3) I can't fix it.

There's a lot of focus on rediscovering oneself on the boards, too. I get that. It's so easy to lose sight of who we are as individuals when we're in a long-term relationship, and this is even more challenging, I think, for mothers. I am not a mother, but I can empathize with that. I've never felt I lost myself in my M. I like to think I had and have a very clear sense of who I am. Of course I had shared interests with H, but I also had many of my own and still have them. I told my friend I was struggling with this: I don't feel like I need to rediscover myself, I said. I feel like I know who I am.

She said, "Maybe it's not about rediscovering yourself but about celebrating yourself."

I really liked that sentiment. I can continue celebrating who I am, reinforcing, as DnJ would say, my values and beliefs as I go. I'm trying.


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Hi Cardinal! So happy to see you back. How’s kitty? How are you? Once again no shocker...I’m starting to feel like we share a brain or maybe our spouses do! Would you believe I’ve now learned that my H too has started with the drug use...both edibles and vaping??? He’s bought a full store by the looks of it. Again someone who was disgusted by the frequent use of it in his industry. The reasonings behind Mlcr’s doing this make sense but it really is quite unbelievable...

Originally Posted by cardinal
I'm still grieving, angry some days, all of that. I'm on my own timeline there. I am still grieving the fact that H couldn't vocalize any of his unhappiness until he'd already decided the M was over and that I was the root of it, that H went from an incredibly generous, loving, and kind partner and friend to, well, you know, the opposite, and that I never saw it coming; I'm still working on coming to terms with the fact that I will most likely never have a child with him and possibly never have a child at all, because of so many things, but also just plain timing of all of this. Maybe some people reach acceptance faster. That's okay. I think it will come when it comes. For me, this is where the sit quietly and wait advice comes in.

This EXACTLY. it’s our timeline while taking guidance from here - because let’s face it no two people or situation is identical. Even as similar as ours seems to be, you still have your experiences and me mine. For me I only judge myself and grab hold when I feel like I’m allowing it to interfere with my productivity or SELF happiness. I feel like as complicated humans we can be unhappy with the situation our H’s have led us in to but we can still be happy with ourselves. Both realities existing at the same time, with us as the gate keeper as to how much time we alot to each side.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I believe I can both be going through waves of sadness, frustration, exhaustion, and confusion related to H and be moving forward at the same time. I think there is a difference between getting permanently stuck in those feelings and recognizing them when they come and working to process them, which is, I think, a lot of what I do when I post here. I know some questions will never be answered, but I still want to voice them. I do tend to focus on H here, because this is the only place where people understand intimately the craziness I am going through. It's really helpful for me to have the repeated outside validation that 1) This is not normal; 2) I didn't cause it; 3) I can't fix it.


I whole heartedly agree with this, feel and behave the same way. For me, it’s Like you say living with them is a tricky game...especially now. It’s hard when you still care about the person to achieve TOTAL detachment. I like using the word compassionate detachment - for me that leaves personal space for me to keep things kind and loving from a safe distance for my mental protection. I too like ‘getting the thoughts out’ here which helps me to not lose it at home.

Originally Posted by cardinal
There's a lot of focus on rediscovering oneself on the boards, too. I get that. It's so easy to lose sight of who we are as individuals when we're in a long-term relationship, and this is even more challenging, I think, for mothers. I am not a mother, but I can empathize with that. I've never felt I lost myself in my M. I like to think I had and have a very clear sense of who I am. Of course I had shared interests with H, but I also had many of my own and still have them. I told my friend I was struggling with this: I don't feel like I need to rediscover myself, I said. I feel like I know who I am.

She said, "Maybe it's not about rediscovering yourself but about celebrating yourself."

I really liked that sentiment. I can continue celebrating who I am, reinforcing, as DnJ would say, my values and beliefs as I go. I'm trying.

Wow this has really helped me Cardinal. I’ve been struggling with the same thing. Trying to figure out what I don’t know about myself, how to rediscover, but I don’t feel lost and I too have always had my own identity and many hobbies out side of H. I really like changing that to celebrating ourselves!! = enlightening! Thank you (and your friend) for that.

Have you baked lately?
I made a crazy awesome batch of brownies ...like lava cakes they were sooooooo good. Nothing special just really good. ( prob the 2 cups of sugar) Hahaha!!!!!

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Originally Posted by cardinal
I believe I can both be going through waves of sadness, frustration, exhaustion, and confusion related to H and be moving forward at the same time. I think there is a difference between getting permanently stuck in those feelings and recognizing them when they come and working to process them, which is, I think, a lot of what I do when I post here. I know some questions will never be answered, but I still want to voice them.

Totally agree with you here. It is important to process those emotions and not just sweep them under the rug. You CAN move forward but at the same time feel all those things. We are human. Especially for as long as most of us have been with our WASes, it would certainly take longer than a few months to "get over" it.

Originally Posted by cardinal
She said, "Maybe it's not about rediscovering yourself but about celebrating yourself."

I like this too! I think for me it's both. Going through this crisis opened my eyes about certain aspects of myself that I would not be able to see if this didn't happen. For that I am grateful.

What have you been baking these days?? I like to read about your adventures in the kitchen. lol!;)


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Originally Posted by Kindly
Would you believe I’ve now learned that my H too has started with the drug use...both edibles and vaping??? He’s bought a full store by the looks of it. Again someone who was disgusted by the frequent use of it in his industry. The reasonings behind Mlcr’s doing this make sense but it really is quite unbelievable...


Seriously? I can't believe it, but I can. I wonder what would happen if you put all the MLC Hs together in a house... like a Real World MLC series. Would they all talk about each other like they were rational but everyone else wasn't?

It's funny--I feel the longer this goes on (not sure if "this" is post-BD life or shelter-in-place or a combo of the two--probably a combo), I am having a harder time channeling what I want for myself, which is to respond with empathy and kindness and compassion. Kindly, I feel like you are very much living this way. I am living it but not always feeling it lately, if that makes sense. Reading Grace's comments about love being not a feeling but a choice, not given because someone deserves it but because they need it was really helpful. It all seems so clear and simple, but all the feelings that are coming and going in me lately don't feel simple.

I googled "surviving MLC" or something like that last night. I know I won't ever find any new info, but sometimes it is helpful to re-read some therapist's blog post or something, just to know it's all the same advice. Some stuff I clicked on happened to take a more negative view--that most marriages don't survive. I know the real answer is no one can know, but I am just finding myself in a more depressed place lately. I know I'm still afraid of the unknown future, and afraid that I won't have any semblance of old H in my life ever again. I still don't want to accept that. I still miss him. I still want a life with him in it, want him to grow through this. I still want to have hope, but it seems so unlikely.

Is it normal for this to seem more hopeless as the BD anniversary approaches, the first one especially? I tell myself the fact that it's been ten months is good, because time is passing and H is on his journey and I am on mine. We have both traveled in that time, though it might not be clear where yet. But I also feel that time passing is making our old life together less and less real. I know it's no less real--it happened, there was love and friendship. I know that, but I don't always feel it. Time passing also makes me feel like any future possibilities for us are less and less likely, but I don't think that must be true necessarily, because if it's MLC, what H needs is time before there could be any possible new R between us. That's why it's a marathon, right?

I'm also probably feeling extra down because H seems to be withdrawing more from me as his birthday approaches. I realize now how nice it was to be sharing food and having small conversations for the first few weeks of this. If anything, I know I can 100% expect periods of coldness or near-silence from H followed by periods of friendliness—I've gone through these cycles again and again! But it still gets me a little.

Reading Canbird's update made me really wish I could talk to H's mom about all of this. Not to get solutions, but just to have a connection with her again. Just to feel supported by her. And I guess I want to talk to her because (I hope) she would recognize and validate that there was love and friendship between me and her son too.

A baking update for Kindly and Wooba: I've been looking for recipes to use up my sourdough starter discard, so I've made a chocolate cake with it (I already want another), waffles, biscuits, and blueberry muffins. I'm getting ready to make bread and pizza dough next. smile


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Also I just want to tack this on in an attempt to practice compassion for myself:

It's okay that I am feeling lost and afraid. BD opened up many areas of uncertainty in my life, not just my M and R with H. I still haven't found a job that will make it possible for me to support myself, and so my creative self/work/career is up in the air. I had the very great freedom in my previous life to pursue creative work and PT paid work, and to accept awards of time and money to travel to do this creative work and further that part of my career precisely because my PT job made it possible to be away for weeks at time. The creative work is a large part of my identity that now feels lost too, though I realize it only feels like it's lost. I'll just have to trust I'll find a way to rebalance that part of myself with a FT job that will make it possible for me to pay rent and eat. Job listings have become sparse post-Covid, which worries me, but I know a lot of people are going through this. BD also opened up all of these questions about having children, and whether I will be able to do that. I said a couple posts back that I know who I am, but I also realize BD has disrupted parts of that identity that felt so solid before. All of this is to say I'm dealing with a lot of uncertainty in the best way I can, and trying to get better at it.


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Originally Posted by cardinal
It's funny--I feel the longer this goes on (not sure if "this" is post-BD life or shelter-in-place or a combo of the two--probably a combo), I am having a harder time channeling what I want for myself, which is to respond with empathy and kindness and compassion. Kindly, I feel like you are very much living this way. I am living it but not always feeling it lately, if that makes sense. Reading Grace's comments about love being not a feeling but a choice, not given because someone deserves it but because they need it was really helpful. It all seems so clear and simple, but all the feelings that are coming and going in me lately don't feel simple.

First of all Cardinal, big big ((((hugs)))). I feel strange ‘giving advice’ because regardless of whether my posts show it or not I too have the same flare ups and feelings you describe. Instead of advice, I’ll share what I have worked on and what I find is ‘working’...again for ME.

1. Erase the timeline ~ we are advised early on that this is a marathon, not a sprint. However, I feel that human nature is wanting of progression. This ‘standstill’ behaviour in our H’s is a slow form of torture. So we can’t help but watch and wait and be hopeful that something drastic will change. We get so hopeful with the nice behaviour and poking out...only to be disappointed again. I realized that I was hanging on to MY timeline of wanting to get on with life with him. I realized that this was not me ‘dropping the rope/letting go of the tangled leash’. I also realized that it was me having expectations of HIM. When I focused on the timeline I too feel ‘distracted’ by ‘what do I want?’, ‘how long do I live like this?’ ‘what if he never comes out of this MLC’? By erasing the timeline I let all these ‘thoughts’ wash over me and tell myself I don’t need the answer now. AND most importantly bring the focus back to me as best I can. Have you read the pursuer/distancer posts? I believe I found it in the link that job or cadet sends out when you first arrive here. If you haven’t it’s def worth the read.

2. Stop judging myself ~ I’ve been slowly learning to just let myself be where I am. Living in the moment. I’m finding it easier right now with this pandemic. Even though I’m working part time, I rarely know what day it is!! Stopping is something I don’t do well. When I have to sit with my own feelings it’s AWFUL. But I’m teaching myself and learning to be ok with whatever comes. Sometimes I don’t know if I want to do this anymore either, sometimes I want to wring his neck, sometimes I’m just so overwhelmingly sad for him and me. I tell myself it’s all allowed ~ look what we are going through!! Somewhere in this I find and continue to strive for COMPASSIONATE DETACHMENT.

(Check out my page, Dnj just wrote a post that ties into all of this and gave me goosebumps). To sum up when I stopped judging myself for my thoughts and feelings I could then just be and there is some peace in that. This makes sense in my head better than it does in writing....I hope it maybe helps a little in at least letting you know that you are fine and that what you express is all part of what I call my (his) ‘rollercoaster’...feel it but don’t get on!!!! Continue with your baking and bread ... or tap into your creativity that you mentioned in a new way.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I'm also probably feeling extra down because H seems to be withdrawing more from me as his birthday approaches. I realize now how nice it was to be sharing food and having small conversations for the first few weeks of this. If anything, I know I can 100% expect periods of coldness or near-silence from H followed by periods of friendliness—I've gone through these cycles again and again! But it still gets me a little.


THIS is difficult for those of us living with our partners and it def ‘gets’ me too. I just got a dose of this this week. Not fun. Feels counterproductive and I’m still fumbling my way with this one cause it’s new H behaviour for me, but detach don’t pursue. Get off the rollercoaster. You are doing better than you feel you are.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I said a couple posts back that I know who I am, but I also realize BD has disrupted parts of that identity that felt so solid before. All of this is to say I'm dealing with a lot of uncertainty in the best way I can, and trying to get better at it.


Of course it has, I can 100% relate to all of this, including the children part. I made a responsible adult decision for our situations and chose H. This now hurts. There will be constant feelings and thoughts we must wade through and there’s no handbook for that. I’m learning to give myself a break. By reaching out on here I feel much less alone and the tools that are offered are invaluable.

You ARE getting better at it Cardinal. And I know I don’t know you, but from your posts alone you seem like a strong, loving, funny, compassionate, smart woman. Yes there are real life fears and worries (jobs, money, house). Just remember it’s empowering to get ourselves back. We didn’t want this to happen but it did. I’m finding out about strengths I never knew I had. I can take care of this house and the yard by my self. Would I like him along side me ...yes...but that’s not an option right now. But I know he’s noticing, cause sometimes he’ll jump in (and then be angry with me mentioning about moving plants around! Haha!)

When have you ever let yourself down? If you have, did you bounce back? Did you take care of you? Focus on the YOU things IN CASE this goes further south. Continue with your creative outlets and continue looking for a full or part time job so you feel safe. None of this is easy, I had an epic meltdown yesterday dealing with the L stuff again...but today is a new day and now that next step is done - equaling less worry and fear.

Sorry for the long post I hope maybe there’s something that resonates with you....

Cardinal is here and she’s doin’ just fine!!!!! I also really wish you could send some of those blueberry muffins through this forum!!! Yummmmmm

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OMG. the MLC Hs all in a real world house. I read your post last night and wasn't able to respond but giggled about it all day long. Can you imagine the monologues? And the arguments? I keep thinking of them being like totally huffy and disbelieving that this other dude DARES call out their reality... and it devolves from there. Hilarious. I think you have a good concept there... oceangirl, where are you??? we have another story for you to pitch!!!

I know how you feel about the anniversary approaching. I don't remember the exact date, but I think my 1 year BD for the ILYB is coming up or perhaps already passed... right around now, anynow. It feels weird. A year is a long time. But in some ways not much time at all. This COVID situation is definitely throwing off all sense of time.

My only advice for you... give yourself a break on some of this stuff, like finding a job. Yes, it is OK that you are feeling lost and afraid. I think a majority of human beings on our planet right now feel that way, and you have lots of good reasons. It is OK. Don't stress about it. You will find a way. Maybe not right away, but you will find something professionally that feeds your soul. It will happen. I have faith in you, and I know you do too.

((Cardinal)) I've been staying away from baking because I feel like I've been packing on the pounds this past month, but my younger daughter (the baker) is clamoring for brownies, so I think we're up for that this weekend. And thinking of making pasta. Keep us all updated on your latest baking adventures, ok?


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Kindly and May, thank you for the company here, and your wise words. As much as I am grateful to be at home and really enjoying having time to garden and bake and read again, the closeness to H just sends me through so many small and big waves of grief again. Sometimes they are triggered by something he does, and I know I'm on the detachment journey, but much of the time they start because it's just harder to put him/us out of my mind when he's around. Sometimes I hear him talking about his family to someone on the phone, and I just feel sad that they're not my family anymore, too. This time last year we went to dinner with a friend for his birthday and I had no idea BD was coming in about six weeks. It's the last photo I have of us together, both of us smiling, him leaning close.

He asked me if I was going to make more cookies last night, and I said, well, I was thinking about making something he likes for his birthday this weekend. We normally always make each other cakes, and he still made me one after BD last summer. That's okay, he said--I don't want anything. So that's settled. I won't make the dessert I'd been wondering if I should make. I'll just tell him Happy Birthday.

A human moment today, just one that makes the periods of craziness easier to roll with: surprise--he was taking an online painting class at the kitchen table (watercoloring was something he used to do when we met). I noticed he was using the special set of paints I made him for our anniversary in November after BD... it was a pretty sentimental gift, and I'd just left it out for him with a short note and was prepared for him to not accept it, but he ended up taking the set and note and keeping it with all the other inconsequential notes he'd saved from me after BD. He showed me the painting he did for the class. Very nice color and texture.

May, I'm taking your advice and trying to give myself a break and let the grief travel through me. In between sadness and the other feelings that come with this MLC roommate lately, I felt a wave of gratitude, too: yes, it bothers me sometimes that I don't understand how H will proceed or why we're still roommates at this point in time, but also, I focused on how thankful I am to live in this house and have his health insurance and help with expenses, how thankful I am to have my cat healthy again, how thankful I am that my family is well. There are so many things to be thankful for in this challenging and uncertain time, and the pandemic does help put things in perspective.

Kindly, it's very, very helpful to see how you break down what's working for you. I think each time I read something here I internalize it a little bit more. Or I re-read something and because I'm in a different space it resonates in a new way.

Originally Posted by Kindly
When I focused on the timeline I too feel ‘distracted’ by ‘what do I want?’, ‘how long do I live like this?’ ‘what if he never comes out of this MLC’? By erasing the timeline I let all these ‘thoughts’ wash over me and tell myself I don’t need the answer now.

Ah, yes. The timeline. I go through this exact thing every day, it seems, and whenever I feel myself worrying over those questions, it does help to remind myself it's okay to have the questions, and I don't need to know the answers now. Now I can just focus on whatever is right in front of me. I think sometimes interactions with friends drive these questions, as I tend to see myself from an outside perspective, then, and can get caught up in thinking this situation must seem hopeless to them. And I can't explain why H says we're getting a D but he doesn't really talk to me about it and, well, we're not there yet. I don't have answers for them either—and I know I don't have to, but it does get me thinking about the questions again.

Originally Posted by Kindly
Sometimes I don’t know if I want to do this anymore either, sometimes I want to wring his neck, sometimes I’m just so overwhelmingly sad for him and me. I tell myself it’s all allowed ~ look what we are going through!! Somewhere in this I find and continue to strive for COMPASSIONATE DETACHMENT.

Yes, yes, thank you for this validation. Like May's give yourself a break! Sometimes all of this comes alongside the striving for compassionate detachment. (And I will go read DnJ's post to you again!)

Kindly, you also reminded me that we are pretty good at taking care of things ourselves! Yep, the house and the yard--I've learned to how to rely on myself to figure things out. I would keep going but my posts always end up so long. I'll be visiting your thread soon!

H is watching a lot of reality shows lately, so Real World MLC is even more on my mind. I really think it could take off! smile

Brownies sound fabulous and are on my to-bake list. I'm finally back to pre-BD weight. smile Yesterday a local sweet shop had special pints of mint cookie ice cream that sold out too fast for me to get one, so I made a small batch of Thin Mint-type cookies and am planning to crush them in mint chip ice cream. It's a good thing we don't have an ice cream maker... but also, I sort of wish we had an ice cream maker.

DB family, I hope you are all well tonight!


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Hi Cardinal,

I'm so glad your kitty is healthy again. I think gratitude is a muscle we all need to exercise. I'm trying to get my whole family to do it, because when you sit in gratitude for a bit, I feel like it is so healing. Just reading that paragraph of yours about what you are thankful for made ME feel better.

Homemade ice cream... we actually DO have an ice cream maker buried in the pantry and now I want to get it out! I think I've also seen recipes online for making ice cream without an ice cream maker? Might be worth looking into...

And I know this probably isn't helpful and mind reading and all the rest but I find it so, so odd that he keeps all your notes. I remember reading that from one of your very first posts and it has totally stuck with me. I guess it just shows how deeply confused he is, but WEIRD.

Wanna share your thin mint cookie recipe? That sounds amazing. I'm looking at a truffle recipe that doesn't look that hard, a magazine page I'd clipped probably 10 years ago and never tried and found again while going through my cookbooks. Will let you know how it goes.


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Hi Cardinal, LOL real world MLC ...you might be on to something. I wonder if they’d pick out strange behaviour in others if they were all quarantined together?

I hear ya when you talk about his family or your MIL ...a mutual friend of ours dropped by the other day to visit (from a distance)...this friend reached out to me in the beginning and then dropped me all of a sudden. It makes me so sad and also makes me wonder what H has told him. I too crave a reality where I could talk more with my MIL and SIL, or even just have them ask questions instead of sitting here with the memory of them shaking their head and saying “ ya it’s too bad” or “you should get a lawyer”....what the!?!?!? Anyway, I overcome these feelings by having fantasy conversations with myself and play out what I would say if I could speak my mind!!

I also like how you handled H’s birthday situation...I will be facing the same issue next month. Not sure what I’ll do yet, but I’ll keep how your situation played out in mind.

Hope you’re relaxing with kitty and the sweet aromas of your latest baking adventure.

Take care,
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H's birthday. The peonies always start blooming this week, and they are right on schedule, so many bees tending to the layers and layers of petals. H made cookies last night and shared them with me. He's been in a good mood this weekend, which shows again I can't predict his moods and shouldn't try! I'm a little sad today, wishing I could say or do more than just the "Happy Birthday!" greeting I gave him when he woke up. Can someone remind me why it makes sense not to tell him how I feel? I'm not on the verge of doing it or anything, and I know the pandemic is contributing to this, because the message everywhere is talk to people you love. Well, I am talking to him, I guess, just not about feelings, and I am thankful for the small moments we sometimes can still share.

I do find it weird, still, that he kept every little note I wrote him after BD. They remain in his room where he stashed them on the other side of the messy desk. You can see them when you walk in. Compartmentalization. Anyway, I look back at the first several months when I was in IC and really working to change some of my unhelpful behaviors (defensiveness, not apologizing, etc), and it's clear that I was making an effort to turn things around while not having R talks or while trying not to apply pressure. So I sometimes wonder if he thinks things played out like he expected--I was only interested in saving the M because he said he wanted a D, and I may have been motivated at first, but now I don't care, and it's clear (in his mind) that I didn't really love him, just like he thought.

Now, I know I can't change his mind or his logic. I know this is his journey. More than ever, I feel like I'm observing most of the time. One thing that gives me some peace is that I'm not interfering, or trying not to as best I can--I think back to the advice you all gave when I was asking why he wasn't moving out. I want him to make every decision, be responsible for each step in this process, wherever it goes.

So why do I still find myself at times conflicted about his only seeing the outward, carefree me that I project? Does he think all of this hasn't hurt me? Could he think he didn't mean that much to me after all?

I feel like these are newbie questions! Make him think you've moved on, etc. etc. If it doesn't matter what I do, because he's on his path (and I don't want to influence). In the last several months I've given up (maybe it's better to say I've started to let go of) the need to save this, because I am ready to work and have a different M, but I can't do that without H on board. It's out of my hands at this point.

How do you find the balance between staying true to who you are and how you love, and DB? Isn't that the question people ask over and over? Shouldn't I have learned the answer to that by now? It is love, I suppose, to recognize that he is living his own life and right now that doesn't include M to me, whether he understands it as love or not.

Happy Birthday, H. I do love you. I do miss you. I never tell you these things. Some days I do find myself feeling anger and disbelief, but I am trying my best to act with kindness and compassion instead.


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Oh, and May, it was kind of revelatory for me to realize that gratitude can actually make me feel better, even though I've heard that message about keeping a gratitude journal since whatever year Oprah (was it Oprah, or do I just remember it that way?) cemented it in popular culture. I like the idea of your family doing this together! As for thin mints, I based them on the recipe at bakedbyanintrovert.com. I thought Dorie Greenspan's chocolate cookies were perfect, but I would up the mint slightly in the chocolate coating next time, I think.

Kindly, I too have fantasy conversations with MIL sometimes! That's probably the way to go, for a while at least. I'm sorry that friend pulled back from you. It seems a lot of people struggle with how to respond, or how to respond with empathy for both people at once. One thing we seem to be strengthening is our capacity for empathy.

First successful sourdough loaf baked this week! Thanks for the encouragement, May.


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Cardinal,

They tend to keep all of the notes, wrapping paper, cards, ribbon, etc. that we give them. They may tell you that they have trashed them, but they don't.

You love him in spite of his behavior and it's very normal to want to tell him that you love him especially today of all days. Wishing him a Happy Birthday was a very nice first thing this morning. He knows you love him and he also knows that you are observing him from afar. The more you detach, the better and yes, he will sense when you finally drop the rope.

Cardinal, you are human and yes, you love this man, but for now, keep the focus on you, your children and your cats. Your h is still baking in the oven and it's going to be a while before he's "done".

If it helps, sit down and write a letter to your h today and then put it in a safe place for a while. You may decide to tear it up and not keep it, but it will help you will you are on your own journey.

Hugs to you and your family and please stay safe and healthy.


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Originally Posted by job
If it helps, sit down and write a letter to your h today and then put it in a safe place for a while. You may decide to tear it up and not keep it, but it will help you will you are on your own journey.

Cardinal, I did this and it helped. I packed up all of H's Christmas decorations (we both have ornaments from growing up, plus he has a number given to him over the years of his alma mater, sports teams, etc.) in a separate box after Christmas this year, because I didn't want to have to see them next year if he was gone. Before I taped it up, I wrote a note to him and put it inside, along the lines of I loved him, if he was reading this on his own how sorry I was that we were over.

For me, writing that letter and packing it away was cathartic and somehow freeing. Especially once it went off down to the basement and felt kind of like I couldn't take it back, it was out there in the world and wouldn't be received for a year at the minimum.

So maybe try it? if you're conflicted about not telling him how you feel, this is a way to get it off your chest without him actually needing to read it right now.

Originally Posted by cardinal
So I sometimes wonder if he thinks things played out like he expected--I was only interested in saving the M because he said he wanted a D, and I may have been motivated at first, but now I don't care, and it's clear (in his mind) that I didn't really love him, just like he thought...So why do I still find myself at times conflicted about his only seeing the outward, carefree me that I project? Does he think all of this hasn't hurt me? Could he think he didn't mean that much to me after all?

I know I probably had way more R talks with my H than you are supposed to with DBing. And I know part of the reason that it isn't recommended is that it just doesn't do that much good. He has a narrative all built up in his head and words out of your mouth just aren't going to change that. He is too dedicated to believing his own story to let something that you say throw it off. My H had needed to convince himself that I didn't really love him (because of the SSM) and also that our M was unsalvageable in order to justify his own behavior. Me saying in those R talks that I did love him and had never stopped totally fell on deaf ears. He *couldn't* really listen and believe me because that would mean that all these cascading choices he had made were based on a fallacy and make him be the bad guy instead of me... so he just didn't believe me. And, he said a lot of things to me about how he wasn't in love with me and how he felt about AP that now I regret hearing because it is making this healing part all the harder.

That all being said, I completely understand the desire to say how you feel to the one person you are supposed to be able to say anything to.

Originally Posted by cardinal
How do you find the balance between staying true to who you are and how you love, and DB? Isn't that the question people ask over and over? Shouldn't I have learned the answer to that by now? It is love, I suppose, to recognize that he is living his own life and right now that doesn't include M to me, whether he understands it as love or not.

Honestly, I think this entire situation is an exercise in learning to stretch and expand what we mean by LOVE. Love isn't just when things are easy and fun... this is love too, and giving your H the space that he needs right now to figure himself out is an even bigger and harder kind of love for you to share with him than telling him how you feel, even though being open with him maybe used to be one of the ways you have shown your love for him in the past. Just like exercising gratitude, exercising and stretching your love muscle to new and uncomfortable places, expanding the meaning of love to this truly unselfish place where you are now for him-- that is something that will stay with you the rest of your life, and is a gift to you as much as it is to him.


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Hi cardinal. Congrats on your sourdough... how'd it turn out? I've been experimenting too.

Your last post.. I felt like I was reading my own words.. the way you expressed yourself was right on target with me and my H. I've wanted to shout from the roof tops SO many times! But, we are following our script too. And I also wonder if he actually knows how I've really been feeling about the whole situation.

Keep on keeping on smile

ps- did you make your own starter for your bread?


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Job and May, your advice on writing a letter was helpful just to think about. May, I remember reading about your note to H in the box of ornaments. I think if mine ever leaves, I will think about writing something short and sticking it with his ornaments. I thought about it at Christmas, but didn't pack his in a separate box. There is a box I didn't get out that has many of the ornaments he made as a kid that his mother saved and gave to me. H always thought that was ridiculous, that she saved so many. I know job wasn't suggesting I give him a letter, but maybe it will be enough just to know I could hide a note in the future, for him to read in a further future, if I wanted to.

Can, thank you for your words here too. It is comforting to know someone else is feeling/has felt these things. My note to him today would look very different than my note on the morning of his birthday! He was gone most of the day, came home with a cake box from the grocery store, and then left again. We've always made each other elaborate cakes for each other's birthdays. We learned to bake and cook together. Somehow it never occurred to me he would still be having cake, just not with me. It hit me pretty hard. He didn't even save me a piece or mention it, though there's a container of leftover cake in the fridge. I have to say, I couldn't stop myself from asking nicely, "How was the cake?" after he had some for dessert in his room last night. I think it caught him a little off guard, but he just said it was good.

And then today one of my friends reached out to tell me he'd posted photos on social media from his birthday, hanging out with his group of new friends, no one wearing masks. She was worried for my health. (H also used to look down on posting photos on social media, of course.) I'd assumed that's where he was, so it didn't surprise me. I mentioned it to our mutual friend, who was surprised, maybe because he's been very careful Covid-wise when he's seen her. She's elderly, so I know she's taking precautions too.

New kinds of hurt come and go. No cake. No consideration for me, which isn't new, but hurts newly sometimes. As I was writing on Kindly's thread, I find it hard to step back and look at his behavior objectively sometimes. He thinks he is being a friend to me. He thinks we're divorced, so any and all behavior is totally justified. I think: if he wanted a D, there is a way to do that and still be compassionate and kind, and he is not doing that. Back to: MLC, some kind of crisis, not himself, etc. etc.

Living in the house with him, on the receiving end of his behavior, I sometimes catch myself thinking I must have been a terrible wife/person for him to treat me so unkindly now. I must have really hurt him.

Originally Posted by May22
He has a narrative all built up in his head and words out of your mouth just aren't going to change that. He is too dedicated to believing his own story to let something that you say throw it off. My H had needed to convince himself that I didn't really love him (because of the SSM) and also that our M was unsalvageable in order to justify his own behavior. Me saying in those R talks that I did love him and had never stopped totally fell on deaf ears. He *couldn't* really listen and believe me because that would mean that all these cascading choices he had made were based on a fallacy and make him be the bad guy instead of me... so he just didn't believe me.


This is pretty much it, May. Does a SSM justify this? I feel terrible about that, about not realizing the hurt it must have caused him. But I also know I never felt he was my partner in changing the SSM. He probably feels that way about me too.

But I don't believe this justifies his behavior now, gives him a free pass. I can read a hundred times that it's NOT ABOUT ME, but it often feels like it IS about me, because he's making it about me in his mind. I have to remember it is not about me.


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NEW QUESTION: H just let a friend in the front room/his room before taking a walk. I don't think, given the state of things, we should be having people in the house. WTF. Should I address this?


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She was there for maybe ten minutes. I’ve been majorly venting to my mom and am slightly calmer. Whether I say anything or not, he will be making up whatever story he needs to about me to make himself feel good. Right now I’m feeling like this is probably a one-time thing, and I would like to let it go for my own peace. If it happens again, I would definitely need to say something. I don’t know. It’s difficult for me to navigate. He’s already going to hang out with people irresponsibly outside the house. Right now I’m just feeling like... I want to live my peaceful life and ignore him. (Unless he brings someone in again.)


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Dear DB friends. I need some help processing what happened last night. H spewed at me for the first time since Nov. as you can see above, I was planning on letting go of the fact that he let someone into our home for at least the time being, as I didn’t think he would do it again. I stayed away until I was calm, and when I came home, the first think he said was that our cats had let his friend pet them. I was feeling calm but like I needed to say something since he brought the visit up. I said, Actually, it makes me feel uncomfortable and weird to have other people in the house during the pandemic. He went to 11 immediately and yelled, “This is MY house and you’re not going to tell me what to do in my effing house! You can get the eff out if you don’t like it!”

I realized later I should have calmly left the situation because he was yelling, even though I’m sure he would then say he wasn’t yelling. I didn’t, though. I tried to keep interacting with him with calm on my side. I said, I live here too, and as roommates it seems respectful to each other to check before letting people in the house right now. I think I also said he is also free to live where he wants.

You’re talking like you’re an equal roommate! He said. I pay the rent, I pay the bills, I pay for groceries! If you want to play it this way, we can start dividing everything up. Is what you want to start paying me half the rent? You can give me $$ every month!

It felt like a threat. I said, All of my money goes into our joint account. I’m not sure what else you want me to do. It’s your choice how you move forward. He continued spewing about how he won’t be lectured to like a child—he sees his friends all the time and they take precautions, they don’t touch each other.

I said, I’m glad you’re taking precautions. I worry about you sometimes because you’re higher risk.

Don’t worry about me, he said, still yelling. That’s not your job anymore. You don’t have to think about me!

It’s not that easy for me to erase you from my life, I said, still, I think, speaking evenly and calmly. I do still care about you as a friend.

He continued on about how he’s not going to be told what to do, yelling that the friend came in to the front room and went to our backyard (what? Is he showing off all the work I’ve done on it? It would be dead by now if it were up to him!), and that I was treating him like a child and he won’t be told what to do in his own $&?! house.

I ended by saying I’m sorry you feel that way. I didn’t mean to sound like I was lecturing you. I can’t control what you do. I was just telling you how it made me feel. He said something sarcastic. I asked him if he needed anything at the store and left for a couple of hours to call my mom. I came back and acted normal, and he was in cold headphone mode again.

The shock has worn off a bit and I just feel terrible. I know this is typical, but when he’s been so friendly lately and has never made me feel bad about living here, it’s hurtful and scary to hear all of this from him so suddenly. Please help me work on understanding how this response is not about me. He is a complete stranger—the complete contempt in his voice was horrible. It pains me that he has this much anger still. The only thing I can make sense of is that he’s still pushing down all of his feelings and they explode at me. He hasn’t been working on processing anything, so this kind of anger is inevitable. He complains that his boss treats everyone like children. He’s probably stressed about money because he doesn’t have all the fun extra cash he had from the other gig he lost due to Covid. I can’t imagine on some level he isn’t angry at himself for lashing out and saying these things, because he was always bothered by his outbursts of anger when I would stay calm in arguments during our M, and he would usually accuse me of making him feel stupid, like a child, and like the bad guy. He’s stressed about not having bars and concerts to go to. It’s not like he’s not hanging out with his friends anyway.

I don’t want to file, but I don’t know how to proceed. I still don’t think he wants to face any of the reality of giving me anything during a D or having to do the work. He’s made excuse after excuse to others about why he hasn’t filed. The last time he talked to me about doing it in Nov., he was very calm and apologetic, and when I tried to follow up on his suggestion that we talk about how we might start coming to this agreement he suggested we could come to, that’s when he spewed about having a new life and not having time to talk to me.

If I stay calm in situations like this, he thinks I am patronizing him. I suspect I responded too much to him during this “conversation.” Or should I have said more or something different when he tried to make me feel like I don’t belong in this house? I don’t know when to stick up for myself and when to say nothing. I just feel sick this morning. Thanks for any advice you can offer.


Last edited by cardinal; 04/29/20 02:20 PM.

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Cardinal,

It wouldn't have mattered how you spoke to him about the "friend" coming into your home. I would have been concerned too and I also would have been concerned about someone petting your cats. He's being a spoiled brat and he's pretty much has stated that no one is going to tell him what to do. Sounds so much like my xh.

He's too stubborn to realize that the "friend" could be a carrier and not realize it. Sure, we all take precautions, but the stay at home order specially states to stay home unless you are out shopping, getting gas or going to the pharmacy. No where does it say to have friends over.

Why didn't he go over to his friend's place if he thinks so much of this person? He could go there and have fun and not have to feel like a caged animal in his own home. The health crisis is affecting everyone...but the MLCer can't deal with being cooped up because they want to let that inner child out and can't around us.

Take a step back, breathe and be sure to clean every spot that you think that this person has touched. If he doesn't like you doing the cleaning...too darn bad!

BTW, it's your home too. Just because he may be paying the bills, you have been working as well, You are there cleaning, cooking and yes, taking care of that precious place so that he has some place comfortable to live. You've contributed just as much as he has. BTW, in his fit of anger, he was hoping you would walk out. He's trying to push your button because he doesn't have the b*lls to walk out himself. Don't do it. If he's that unhappy, open the door and just let him go.

Please stay safe.


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Oh, job, I would open the door so wide for him right now. There's nothing to do but drop the rope once and for all. I don't want to be in the vicinity of a person who would treat me this way. It is so against everything in me to be this way toward anyone, much less someone I've known for so long (and, you know, been married to). Am I supposed to just go on acting like nothing happened last night? I said good morning, but I just don't feel like being even moderately friendly to him. He's made a couple of random chatty comments today, so he is not going to address last night or apologize. He did apologize after one early outburst a couple months in, so there was a very, very slim possibility.

I'm having a hard time sitting with how he wanted me to feel so small and dependent on him last night . Unfortunately I am somewhat dependent on his income, but it's true--I have been taking care of this house and yard and pets almost entirely myself for the last year. He made it clear he thinks I have no right to be here. In the moment, it felt like I had no real way to assert my own right to live here. If it comes up again, would it be wrong to say something like, "H, you know this isn't the decision I would be making, but you have made it clear we are getting a divorce. This is my home and I am not planning to change that. You are free to leave and pursue your life. I wish you the best."

I already can't imagine what he would do if I said that. I am afraid of his anger. He's so different from the person I knew, the anger he had before so outsized now, his sense of entitlement grown so much... He seems to not take into consideration that I will be getting spousal support. In his mind, it seems I don't deserve anything, even a place to live. I assume if finances were going to be divided I would need a lawyer, because we would need some kind of binding agreement that I would be getting so much in support. And he has our very small savings in an account I can't access. I can't fathom finding money for a lawyer when I don't have any better job prospects and everything is so uncertain with the pandemic and probably will be for a long time. Maybe that's what's stopping him from actually splitting finances. He has to know he depends on my extra income too.

I'm sure you're right about him hoping I would walk out. I don't think he wants to change his comfortable living situation. He doesn't like change. I'm worried he will now find ways to keep pushing me to leave. I won't leave, so then what happens? Or if I am lucky he will go back to being quiet and gone all the time (already left to have lunch with a friend today), and I just keep waiting for him to face the decisions he's made and act on them? Keeping digging deep to somehow stay civil and not break down and tell him how unfair and cruel he's being?


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If your income is not enough to live on, what do you need to do to change that? Not talking about the short run but the long run. Is there a side hustle you can do? Is there a way to work towards a promotion at work so you would get paid more, or eventually move into a new career? Could you be using any of your time right now to train or educate yourself for a better job in the future?

Given 10 years of marriage, alimony will probably only be for 5 years, so you might as well start now working on how to brng your income up.What kind of work do you do now? What skills do you have? What kind of work have you done in the past? What are you good at?

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Hi, KML. I’ve taught part time at colleges, jobs that in my field were already hard to get and now won’t exist. I have a minimum wage job right now but have very reduced hours due to Covid, and it’s a small business so the owner can’t afford to pay me what would actually be a liveable wave in our area. I’ve been applying for jobs in my field for the last eight months or so, had interviews, but no offers. And now postings have slowed way down with the pandemic. I am able to transfer some of my skills into the job I’m doing now and I’m hoping something in a related field that can support me and give me insurance will come along sooner rather than later. Not much more I can do about money at the moment. I’m trying to be hopeful something better will come along, but with the downturn, it’s hard.


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Hi Cardinal, do you think you would feel better if you calmly told your H that you won't tolerate being yelled at? You don't have to be his emotional punching bag in the name of validation. If his behaviour makes you feel uneasy, sick and scared, you just choose to walk away. I think sometimes we LBS struggle with boundaries when trying to follow DB advice to listen and validate. If you act under the assumption that nothing you do will make H come back, then that should remove the fear of standing up for yourself. You don't deserve his abuse - and I don't think it's a stretch to call his aggressive and intimidating behaviour abusive. You're afraid to say something because of his reaction? That's not okay! It's hard to admit, I know, because it took me some time to get to that understanding with my XH as well. Once I got the courage to assert and hold my boundaries, I realised how pathetic and self-serving and obvious his abusive behaviour was. He lost his power over me and that was when I really started healing and growing and strengthening. It must be incredibly hard being stuck in the house with him right now. Sending big hugs.


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So how about a side hustle in the meantime? Tutoring college students who are stuck doing courses online? Writing a guide for students that you could sell online? Even something that only brings in a couple hundred bucks a month could be very helpful in the future.

I know right now is a lousy time to apply for a new job, but down the line, what industries would your skills transfer to? Executive secretary? Business? Technical writing? What could you be doing now to train for such jobs - brushing up certain computer skills?

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Sending Hugs ((( ))) good advice above


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Hello cardinal

No matter what you said or did, H was going to blow up.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I stayed away until I was calm, and when I came home, the first think he said was that our cats had let his friend pet them. I was feeling calm but like I needed to say something since he brought the visit up. I said, Actually, it makes me feel uncomfortable and weird to have other people in the house during the pandemic. He went to 11 immediately and yelled, “This is MY house and you’re not going to tell me what to do in my effing house! You can get the eff out if you don’t like it!”

You didn’t react when he had his friend over, so he upped the ante.

He was pushing your buttons to start a fight.

I mean really, the first thing he “needs” to tell you is that the cat let his friend pet them. No! He was purposely rubbing it in your face to get you to react.

The proof of that is his over reaction to you calmly telling him how having his friend in the house makes you feel uncomfortable. That is not a statement deserved of such wrath.

MLCers will push your buttons. And anything that they can use to justify exploding and shouting and being all angry, they will use.

And by the way, H just had a birthday. Another trip around the sun. Another year closer to the end. He is feeling his life shortening and all the things he hasn’t done. Special days do tend to bring the crazy out of the MLCer.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I'm a little sad today, wishing I could say or do more than just the "Happy Birthday!" greeting I gave him when he woke up. Can someone remind me why it makes sense not to tell him how I feel?

It makes sense not to tell MLCers your feelings because they can’t even handle their own.

A person in crisis is a bubbling angry pot waiting to boil over. After they boil over, burn everyone, and hurt everyone around them, they remove the heat and simmer down for a bit. Some A little bit of self reflection may take place within them during this simmering time. However, their fire and pain is still roaring away, and they will start to bubble again.

No matter what you say, if H is looking to explode he will. If you said how beautiful the blue sky was, he could turn that into an argument. H is irrational, and completely driven by his emotions. You had a front row seat to his crazy. He is irrationally driven, not insane, just in deep emotional turmoil. He can’t handle his feelings.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I would open the door so wide for him right now. There's nothing to do but drop the rope once and for all. I don't want to be in the vicinity of a person who would treat me this way. It is so against everything in me to be this way toward anyone, much less someone I've known for so long (and, you know, been married to). Am I supposed to just go on acting like nothing happened last night? I said good morning, but I just don't feel like being even moderately friendly to him.

My dear friend, cardinal, you are emotionally highjack at the moment. Perfectly normal and totally understandable.

Feelings do flit.

Do not make decisions from a place of emotion.

Detach and find indifference.

Two days ago, you wanted to write him a letter, to tell him about your feelings. Your good feelings. I suspect you still want to tell him your feelings, your current ones - please don’t. That bit of advice, like all the rest, is for you. (((cardinal)))

Originally Posted by cadinal
I am afraid of his anger. He's so different from the person I knew, the anger he had before so outsized now, his sense of entitlement grown so much... He seems to not take into consideration that I will be getting spousal support. In his mind, it seems I don't deserve anything, even a place to live. I assume if finances were going to be divided I would need a lawyer, because we would need some kind of binding agreement that I would be getting so much in support. And he has our very small savings in an account I can't access.

It’s high time you consider and investigate the business path of this. Do not assume your potential finances. Consult a lawyer and learn your rights and probably asset division.

You sense his hidden anger. Can even sense that he doesn’t think you deserve anything. This is not uncommon. Lots of MLCers lash out that way. They would leave you penniless and run off - if they could. Well they can’t!

I understand your fear. H is a different person and his rage is scary. Stand up for yourself. Create and enforce healthy boundaries. Uncouple your irrational fear.

A go way to start is rationalizing it. Talking to a lawyer and getting actual facts will quell the fearful what ifs regarding H and the fallout from whatever he might do.

Drop the rope. Detach. And find indifference. Oh, and by the way, it will most likely be compassionate indifference, you seem to be wired like that. (I kind of have some insight on that smile ) Compassionate indifference - counterintuitive, right until it ain’t.

You are on two paths. Your healing path, and the business path.

At the moment you need to focus upon the business side. Ensure you have financial protection and security. I’d also ensure your funds in the joint account, or even take half out. He did let slip a lot of money issues in his angry speech. Makes me wonder what he is doing.

Dig deep for patience.

Focus on you.

DnJ


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Originally Posted by cardinal
If I stay calm in situations like this, he thinks I am patronizing him. I suspect I responded too much to him during this “conversation.” Or should I have said more or something different when he tried to make me feel like I don’t belong in this house? I don’t know when to stick up for myself and when to say nothing. I just feel sick this morning. Thanks for any advice you can offer.



Cardinal, I'm so sorry that went down. I think your H's anger comes from a place of wanting control. You handled it with grace, and that was not easy. It happens to my H sometimes too, 99% he's civilized and friendly with a bit of aloofness, and 1% of the time he would be unable to restrain himself (whether because of emotional instability or influence of alcohol) and have verbal diarrhea. oh and my H LOVES to use money as a power trip, such as "I'm paying for all of this!" "If you're nice to me I will be more generous in our settlement (when trying to ask for sex)" ....things that the old him would NEVER say. Money is literally the only thing both your H and mine feel like they have control over right now, and they use that to manipulate, coerce, do whatever it is so they can control the narrative.

so the only thing you can arm yourself against that is knowledge and financial independence. I understand the latter is hard and it takes time to build up, but like kml suggested....anything you can do in the mean time to give yourself an edge when the opportunity arises? Can you get help from family? What do you teach? There are lots of websites now which can link you to students worldwide, maybe look into that? Knowledge is knowing how the laws work, some attorneys provide free initial consultation. It sounds like your H is not in a good place financially either, so a D might not be advantageous for him at this moment either.

Being in the same household and still under lock down, I would advise to not escalate the situation. If he's spewing hateful words, just state that "I will not be talked to this way" and walk away. I know if I called my H out and told him that he's verbally assaulting me, thing would blow up and nothing good will come out from it. In my opinion, there is no need to let him know that he's doing it, a fact is a fact and you should probably keep a record of all the hateful things he's saying to you.

My suggestion is less words about you worrying about him....what does he want from the store....you still see him as a friend....etc. stick to the facts.

H: "This is MY house!"
You: "We're still married, 50% is mine."

H: " Don't worry about me! It's not your job anymore!"
You: "You know what, you're right, it is not my job anymore to worry about you. But we live in the same house, I don't want your behavior affecting MY health."

If you are struggling to find the right words to say, just walk away.


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Cardinal I’m so sorry to hear the latest developments. You are right no one deserves to be treated like this and being stuck in our homes with our H’s adds such a level of difficulty and emotion.

Originally Posted by cardinal
Living in the house with him, on the receiving end of his behavior, I sometimes catch myself thinking I must have been a terrible wife/person for him to treat me so unkindly now. I must have really hurt him.

This exact thought goes through my mind often. I try to dismiss it as much as possible and replace it with all the support, love and caring I know I shared with H. Not easy with him reinventing the past, but it helps.
Originally Posted by cardinal
This is pretty much it, May. Does a SSM justify this? I feel terrible about that, about not realizing the hurt it must have caused him. But I also know I never felt he was my partner in changing the SSM. He probably feels that way about me too.

But I don't believe this justifies his behavior now, gives him a free pass. I can read a hundred times that it's NOT ABOUT ME, but it often feels like it IS about me, because he's making it about me in his mind. I have to remember it is not about me.

This is my biggest struggle. I feel like I destroyed him...because he told me I did. But as you said my H also was never my partner in making changes nor did he ever voice any opinions or feelings on ANY matters that came out during BD. I try to let that simple fact right there calm my mind and enforce that it is not about me and that I didn’t cause this. Boy Is it easy to go around in circles ...I assume this means we haven’t fully dropped the rope.

Speaking from very recent experience I fully agree with Wooba, Dnj and whomever else said consult a lawyer. I was petrified to take that step because I was in denial that this was really going to continue down that path. As emotional as this is and as we are, I can honestly say that this changed “the game” for me. Having someone to advocate for me in the business dealings as Dnj always says is paramount. It took me 4 consults before I found someone that I was compatible with that understood my situation for what it is. I told her I wanted to ensure all direction was coming from H and that we didn’t instigate anything but that I wanted to protect myself and know my rights. I truly am so much calmer for it in the business sense and feel like I won’t get taken. I wish it didn’t come to this but H has forced my hand as he won’t talk and insisted I get a L.

Again as Dnj accurately stated we merge onto two paths - the healing path and the business path. We have to look out for ourselves as H has proven he does not have the capacity to care.

Please take things slowly, you’ve done nothing wrong and handled his yelling the best you could. H will threaten you about money just like mine does with having to sell our house ...they find our fear and manipulate it...I’ve spent a lot of time focusing on myself and working through fear with Dnj and jobs help to disarm him...during his last spewing session I also pushed back and said I would no longer tolerate feeling threatened in my house ...we can’t sell during covid. He backed down but has retreated to his angry shark eye cave. At the point we are at nothing will change there minds so I feel we might as well stick up for ourselves, kindly and compassionately with as little to say as possible.
Deep breathes / meditate/ bake/ garden...and love yourself. We’ve got this and you’re not alone.
((((Cardinal))))

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hi Cardinal,

I just want to second/third/fourth the attorney consult. You need to understand your rights and path here, and I think you will feel stronger and better once you go through that process. I know I did once I started to really research D and what it would mean. Phone consults are often free, too, so won't cost you anything but time.

I think it is important through all of this to be constantly evaluating your situation and not just sticking with 'standing for your M' because that is how you felt in the beginning. I think you need to continue to reevaluate and consider how things have changed and if you're in a place where you can focus on yourself and be sane and healthy. It isn't OK the way he spoke to you and how he made you feel, in your own home.

I agree with Wooba too about not talking about how you feel about him. Focus on the facts and what you can and cannot tolerate. And what you cannot tolerate... just disengage. He isn't in a place where he can be reasonable, so don't expect reason out of him. It is pretty aggravating that he is displaying such unsafe behaviors, though. I'm not totally sure how to handle that since now he knows it pushes your buttons. Has he backed off or escalated?

HUGS. Thinking of you.


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Cardinal,

Please contact a lawyer and see what your rights are. The more knowledge you have about your situation, the stronger you will feel. Oh, your h will continue to make threats, but once you know your rights, if he threatens you, just look at him and walk away because you will have info that he doesn't know you have.

MLCers do not like to be told what they can and cannot do. The more you tried to reason w/him, the more determined he will be to do the exact opposite.

Remember... you didn't break him, therefore, you can't fix him. You can only control you and how you react when he "monsters". He knows you well and knows exactly what buttons to push...take that knowledge and try to change the way that you react to him. Once he sees he can't push your buttons, he may very well cease doing so. He's like a 2 years old testing the boundaries of "mom" and the more you react, the more that baby is going to act up. They love attention, i.e., be it positive or negative.

I know it's difficult to deal w/him at the moment, but I know you can handle this. Keep the focus on you, do the best you can when it comes to him and trust me, it doesn't matter what you say or do, he's going to have a reaction. When he monsters, walk away...you do not need to listen to him. Being a bully is all part of the MLC journey for him. He feels threatened and when they do, they come out swinging.

Knowledge is power...take that power he has over you and toss it aside. See a lawyer and find out what your rights are. It's important that you do so in order to have some peace of mind.


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Hello, everyone! First, thank you Kindly, wooba, may, Can, DnJ, job, kml, Scout, for all of your support and concern. I can’t thank you enough. Without being able to come here and get perspective and advice, I know I would struggle with thinking I was crazy even more. I mean, who is this person who was my husband? Who treats anyone like that and doesn’t apologize? I know, an MLCer. The next day he acted as if nothing had happened. He’s been quieter toward me, but still chatty once in a while. I have sensed anger under the surface in the last couple of weeks, as he spends a lot of time yelling at the shows he’s watching and cursing office supplies that don’t work. After Tuesday night’s episode, he’s started being gone with his friends every night instead of just occasionally. Typical behavior for when he can’t take real life anymore. He escapes. At least I have a break from him. Our stay at home order was extended to May 31.

Scout, your your validation really made me feel better. His behavior was indeed abusive. Wooba, what you wrote helped me start to rationalize things and step back. Of course he wants to feel like he’s in control of something in his life, especially when the govt is telling him to stay home. He’s also always been very sensitive about seeming like “the bad guy” (or a typical guy at all actually—he’s MNG), so I can imagine there’s all kinds of shame and anger at himself that he’s projecting onto me. He’s never been able to deal with any emotion other than being happy. He doesn’t know how to process emotions, especially anger. When I met him, he was not an angry person, but slowly he became more angry and unable to understand it.

My IC also suggested he’s taking a lifetime of not feeling like he could speak up and funneling all of that onto me. job, I think you said as much when I first came here! I spoke to her about what I think is bipolar depression in his family. She said it’s hard to say what, but something is definitely going on with H, and his self-medicating with alcohol and weed masks even more.

DnJ—when you said that MLCers would like to leave you with nothing, but can’t, that started me down the path of rationalizing my irrational fears. I did consult lawyers months ago, and I know I am entitled to half. I know I can’t be responsible for any of his credit card debt after we separated. Poof—a lot of my fear went away! I think he’s stressed about money, and knowing what I am entitled to, and he knows he depends on my extra income now too. He’s stressed and angry about a lot in his life, and mentioning money is the only way he can feel powerful. I didn’t react in fear toward him. I know he was surprised I stood up for myself. I tend to think it’s all bluster, and as wooba said, it’s inconvenient for him to split finances now. If he does, if I have to find money somehow to retain a lawyer, well, I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it. No sense worrying about it now. I‘m prepared.

Now, the house (rented), lawyers seemed to think it made sense for me to stay here while he goes, but also said, that’s something you would work out in mediation—you’re good candidates for that! Again, a later bridge.

By no less than 24 hours after the spewing, with what I’ve learned here, I was feeling much better and stronger. Emotions do change. His words lost much of their power over me. And as many of you pointed out, next time I can (and I will) just walk away. No point in me sticking around so he can yell.

That said, what lingers: how much pain he must be pushing away, to lash out in the ugly way he did, someone who has always been nothing but generous and unconcerned about money, who earlier this week was telling me I’d made the best bread ever, was offering me tea, etc etc. I don’t believe he goes around hating me all of the time, that he always thinks it’s awful and unfair that I live here. I think he is not happy with himself, and the pressure comes and goes, and he explodes and then leans into drinking and fantasy friend life.

And I arrive at: How can he ever think what he’s done is forgiveable? How do MLCers who get so far from themselves work their way out of this tunnel and then think they can reconnect after all the drama? It’s more obvious than ever that I didn’t break him and can’t fix him. He has a lot of anger and hurt to work through. I have been neutral toward him, not hateful, since. That feels like all I can do. That and make another fabulous loaf of bread. smile

Hugs to all of you! I hope you and your families are well.

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I also forgot to mention—DnJ, your comment about the weekend bday made me think about how earlier in the day on Tuesday, H checked the mail and mentioned to me (like most years) his dad has not sent a card. Which he laughs off: “that’s my dad!” I don’t think they talked on the phone this year. H has never expressed any real emotion about their lack of a relationship. Nor, in all the years I’ve known him, has he ever gotten angry at his mom. He’s told me when he’s mad at her, but he’s never actually talks any anger out with her. Hmm! You think it’s convenient that I’m here to take any and all anger he’s experienced in his life?


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Good Morning cardinal

Very nice rationalizing. And watching those feelings flit away. Well done!

Originally Posted by cardinal
And I arrive at: How can he ever think what he’s done is forgivable?

IMHO, they don’t. We, and/or others demonstrate and show them forgiveness and they learn it. MLCers have a lot of growing up to do.

Originally Posted by cardinal
How do MLCers who get so far from themselves work their way out of this tunnel and then think they can reconnect after all the drama?

A few things at work for thinking they can reconnect.

MLCers if/when they finally exit the tunnel they enter a depression stage, then an even darker and deeper stage of withdrawal. Lots is being processed and reflected upon during this time. They let go of their pain, finally facing it, seeing the cause, and reconciling it. Steps towards healing themselves. Another long process.

Reconnection may happen somewhere in this time frame or later well into acceptance and settling down. The MLCer is no longer the troubled emotional person living in the past. A lot of the running and craziness of their last years will be forgotten. Well not so much forgotten, more inaccessible; like they loss the index to those memories.

We LBS do the same. The once incredibly strong and painful emotions and thoughts that flood our lives give way as we heal. The longer we live our better and good lives the less and less these thought and feelings have hold upon us. We become different, that best version of ourselves. And that person somewhat loses the index to that painful time; it is lost in forgiveness and acceptance.

This is not that hard to see. We all have memories of our childhood and young years locked away, and our adult language and thinking makes those memories non-understandable and not easily relived. We lost the ability to translate them into our current lives. We grew up. The MLCer grows up and losses their’s too.

That is a reason for “thinking they can reconnect”. I also think, seeking to reconnect and hoping to be able to reconnect is at play here.

Our forgiveness or others that have forgiven them has hopefully allowed them to grow and seek self forgiveness.

Their path has hopefully lead them to empathy and they see the pain they caused.

They will seek to reconnect to make amends and heal old wounds. The will hope against everything to be worthy of forgiveness. Granted this is more of a best case scenario as some never exit the tunnel. However, we are discussing those that actual do.

For these fortunate few MLCers, and possible reconciliation, is when this becomes so important:

Nothing you do will affect the MLCers path. And everything you do will.

That is one of the big reasons to focus on you and not attempt to manipulate your spouse’s journey. Live your life, as best you can, and as you want. Become the best version of yourself.

If the MLCer ever exists the tunnel and turns back towards you, they may or may not like who you are. Ensure you like who you are.

Reconciliation is a bonus. You and your life is the true goal.

Originally Posted by cardinal
You think it’s convenient that I’m here to take any and all anger he’s experienced in his life?

Oh yes.

MLCer’s project their anger and blames into us, the LBS, their once beloved spouse. Remember they are suffering from a trauma from a past authority figure. A person and trauma they emotional could not handle and burried. They incorrectly assigned that to us. We get blame and anger as their lives turn inside out. It is such a sad thing to witness and we are powerless to help, stop, slow down, or steer it.

These are broken, hurting, and desperate people. And desperate people do desperate things.

It’s not about you. H has mentioned his Dad a few times. It’s hard to say what he might uncover. Time will tell.

DnJ


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Hi Cardinal,

Originally Posted by cardinal
And I arrive at: How can he ever think what he’s done is forgiveable? How do MLCers who get so far from themselves work their way out of this tunnel and then think they can reconnect after all the drama?

I don't know that they think what they did *is* forgivable. I think that is part of the problem. I imagine him having dug this deep, deep hole and at some points when he has flashes of normalcy he looks at the walls around him and the light so far up there and simply can't imagine how he can get out. And climbing out would also entail truly facing up to his behaviors and how they've affected you. So he pretends he doesn't want out of the hole, even to himself, and keeps digging down because maybe eventually he'll come out on the other side.

It's sad, honestly.

Originally Posted by cardinal
By no less than 24 hours after the spewing, with what I’ve learned here, I was feeling much better and stronger. Emotions do change. His words lost much of their power over me.

That's terrific. smile I'm glad-- reaching that point of balance is so important. Keep it up!


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Hiya Cardinal!
Originally Posted by cardinal
By no less than 24 hours after the spewing, with what I’ve learned here, I was feeling much better and stronger. Emotions do change. His words lost much of their power over me. And as many of you pointed out, next time I can (and I will) just walk away. No point in me sticking around so he can yell.
Great stuff Cardinal...it’s hard to change but we are slowly learning and succeeding at what we need to do for self preservation. Way to go!

Originally Posted by cardinal
That said, what lingers: how much pain he must be pushing away, to lash out in the ugly way he did, someone who has always been nothing but generous and unconcerned about money, who earlier this week was telling me I’d made the best bread ever, was offering me tea, etc etc. I don’t believe he goes around hating me all of the time, that he always thinks it’s awful and unfair that I live here. I think he is not happy with himself, and the pressure comes and goes, and he explodes and then leans into drinking and fantasy friend life.
I feel this exact same way and I do think you are correct. I remember early on one of the veterans talking about the pressure that builds up in them and I believe this is when we get “monstered” or when they crank up the running behaviour again. I see it and def live it....

Originally Posted by cardinal
And I arrive at: How can he ever think what he’s done is forgiveable? How do MLCers who get so far from themselves work their way out of this tunnel and then think they can reconnect after all the drama? It’s more obvious than ever that I didn’t break him and can’t fix him. He has a lot of anger and hurt to work through. I have been neutral toward him, not hateful, since. That feels like all I can do. That and make another fabulous loaf of bread. smile

I struggle with this too Cardinal especially when the only answer is to leave him be...let him sort himself out. I don’t see H doing that because he never has looked inward and wouldn’t know where to start. I hope I’m wrong for his sake. But the advice here is spot on and we’ve seen examples of what happens when we get “too close” again. The person they are putting all of the blame onto will have an impossible time making them see reason....I think anyway, especially while MLC has its claws in them.

Fabulous loaf of bread, brownies and some beverages on my deck with Cardinal while our husbands’ vape....it makes me smile every time I picture it!
Lol!

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DnJ and may, thank you for sharing your thoughts on the MLCer's journey toward (or, in some cases, away from!) self-forgiveness and, maybe, seeking to make amends with others. DnJ, you talk about what may lead some to reconnecting with people in their lives further down the road, and may, what you wrote really seemed to capture where (I imagine) H is right now in a nutshell:

Originally Posted by may22
I imagine him having dug this deep, deep hole and at some points when he has flashes of normalcy he looks at the walls around him and the light so far up there and simply can't imagine how he can get out. And climbing out would also entail truly facing up to his behaviors and how they've affected you. So he pretends he doesn't want out of the hole, even to himself, and keeps digging down because maybe eventually he'll come out on the other side.


I've been having trouble finding patience and peace this week. Well, more like sustaining it. I can find it, but after that burst of anger from H last week, I find myself again wishing I could have the house to myself and not have to come into contact with his anger and unhappiness, whether directly or indirectly (i.e. his spewing at me or grumbling at the reality shows he's now started watching nonstop). He is not, at this moment, choosing self-reflection or peace, and I get that he can't—he's in that hole he's dug/digging, he's running, he's a teen, emotions bubble up and get shoved down, projected onto me, etc. As much as I can tap into focusing on what I'm doing and what I'm grateful for, there's now this undercurrent in the house—that he said, basically, I don't deserve to be here, and that he does. I don't believe that, but knowing he believes feels that has propelled me to another level of acceptance that he is very different from the person I knew, has a long way to go, and that, truly, I can't reach him in the hole! I would rather not be around him while he digs and digs through the foundation of our tiny 900 square-foot house.

It helped me see that a similar dynamic was at play in many of our past arguments, where his anger would surprise me, and he would try to blame it on me, and I would walk away thinking I caused it. I'm sure I sometimes did not help that anger dissipate in the moment, but now I think I understand that it came from all kinds of places, and I was the only one he could allow himself to be angry around. I didn't cause it--he didn't take ownership of it, didn't try to work through it or understand it, and that pattern is repeating, only now I am to blame for pretty much everything, according to him. Underneath all his bluster is hurt, I think, for the SSM, that is only coming out as anger now, and then whatever else he's been bottling up for a lifetime of trying to make other people happy at his own expense.

So part of this acceptance is also believing there's no M to save currently. I see how much work he needs to do to find peace and happiness within himself, and until he can grow and heal, it would be impossible to have a relationship or friendship. So where does this leave me? Still wanting him to own his decisions, not wanting to help him by choosing D myself or by magically disappearing from the house and his life. I do deserve to be here too. I know it's not easy, the path he has, actually acting on these decisions he's made. But it's draining to imagine living in such close quarters with him for who knows how long.

In the aftermath of last week, I am also realizing I don't know when I need to say or do something to stand up for myself and when I should let things go. When am I walking on eggshells vs. choosing to let something go for my own peace? Telling H I was uncomfortable with someone in the house last week let him know a button he can push. He probably wouldn't have repeated it--why would you want to bring your friends home when your mom is around? So should I have said nothing? At the same time, it's clear he doesn't expect me to ever push back or set a boundary in his house—he thinks he has all the power here.

I guess dig deeper for patience? Hopefully he will be back in the office at some point, and I'll be back at work, and we'll both have a little space again.

Made my weekly loaf of bread. I do enjoy having time enough at home to devote to a full day of dough activity. Folding, resting, shaping. The seeds I started inside are a foot tall now. I spend most of my time in the yard when it's not too hot. I discovered several baby praying mantises in the flower bed in miniature praying form.

Happy Mother's day to all you mothers and caregivers to humans and animals!


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Hello cardinal

You ask a good question of when do I stand up for myself and when do I let it go.

Last week’s telling him that you don’t want other people in the house was the right thing to do.

A kind of guide is am I being treated like a doormat; being stepped on? If so, stand up. It’s ok to stand up against disrespectful behaviour.

Boundaries are for that which you need protection from. Protection for your sanity and emotional wellbeing.

Things that can fit into the “don’t sweat the small stuff” category, let those go for your peace.

Digging for patience and giving yourself 24 hours to consider and reconsider your actions will lead you in the right direction. Although, at times, those luxuries can’t be implemented.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I don't believe that, but knowing he believes feels that...

Nice! Good job on being accurate.

You sound well and grounded. Yep, H is in a hole and you can’t lift him out. Pretty astute of you to realize he doesn’t want that help anyways. You’ve got to let him dig, run, dig, and run some more. Hopefully he gets tired, pauses, and looks around a bit.

Fresh baked bread. mmmmmmmm. Boy I bet your house smells great!

DnJ


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Thanks, DnJ. This is helpful. I think I get confused sometimes because I have no control over his actions—in this case, I was being disrespected and stepped on—I feel that a lot from him, because I know he has the attitude that this is his house and he never expects me to speak up about anything. He wants to feel in control. So a boundary would be leaving the room if he yells. That’s about protecting me, not controlling him. But I can’t control whether he brings people into the house... I did feel it necessary to speak up and say it made me uncomfortable. I guess I’m thinking about what action I could take for myself in that case—maybe sometimes just refusing to keep my feelings quiet as I am being stepped on, and sharing them calmly, is enough?

I feel I’m getting stuck in my loop of anger today and having to remind myself I’m not crazy. H talked to his mom on the phone and it was a regular old convo: work complaints, TV, chit chat, Happy Mother’s Day! All cheer from him. At the end she must have asked if I was there, because he said I’d been outside but had come in. I know they don’t talk about “real” stuff, but it bothers me that she has no idea what the actual situation is here, or how much anger he’s showing me. To her, he can be the usual happy son who just decided he didn’t want to be married anymore but is letting me live here and treating me with kindness. That’s the way he sounds on the phone with her. It makes me feel like I imagine his anger, his unkind treatment, the reality that he is not treating me as a friend. He is not treating me like a human being sometimes, is what my IC said. And then I get angry at him again, for feeling like he can blame and project whatever anger or shame he needs to on me, so that he can continue to be his happy, sensitive self with his mom, and his happy, fun self with his friends.

I know that I should trust my own experience, but it is so hard when everything he projects negates it. I read more about depression and anger in men, and try to have compassion for what he might be growing (typo—should be “going,” but I sure hope he’ll be growing some point!) through, try to remind myself in this way it’s not about me even though he is trying as hard as he can to make it about me. And then I hear him talk to his mom or his friends and I just doubt it all—that he’s depressed, in crisis, that he’s right and I’m actually the one who caused him to get to this point. Such strong FEELINGS and not beliefs, but I have to fight really hard to not let them become beliefs, and sometimes that is so exhausting. I get worn down by him. I doubt my beliefs.

I thought about texting MIL Happy Mother’s Day, but I just can’t. I really just want to say—what do you think is going in here? Does this arrangement not seem weird to you?

Thanks for letting me vent here. I need to go work in the garden and try to refocus on something else.

Last edited by cardinal; 05/10/20 06:52 PM.

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did your state impose restrictions about socializing? maybe you can call the police? that sounds a bit extreme, but if my health was in danger.....I'd consider it. I would recommend taking a picture/journal too when he has his friends over for evidence (and keep a record of all the crazy things he's said to you and behaviors that are out of line).

cardinal, you are not crazy. I know everything must be so hard for you because you are the only one that's experiencing this side of him. I think it's true for most LBSes, outsiders see no difference in our R, but we know what kind of alien our spouses have become.

I mailed my MIL a bouquet of flowers for Mother's Day, and I called and facetimed them with the kids. H went to visit her by himself, and he came up with a believable excuse for me and the kids to not be there with him. Yup, my H does not want to tell his parents about us. He said his mother will go crazy. And for me, I don't need my MIL knowing to validate what I'm going through. whether she knows or not makes little difference to me right now.

I think it goes back to the whole control thing. I think maybe your H has so little in his control right now in his life, he's just holding on to whatever he can. He's still in control of his outward image to his friends and family.

You don't have to maintain any relationship (such as with MIL) if you just can't bring yourself to do it right now. That's me also. I'm doing the bare minimum. Personally I feel bad for my inlaws because they don't even know why they're not seeing me and their grandchildren that much in the last few months (other than because of covid). I know my MIL is not happy about it, but I just can't put her feelings first right now. Ultimately she is H's mother, and I will leave that to him.

Lastly, maybe you should just walk away to another room when your H is on the phone so you can avoid hearing his conversations entirely. Maybe that will help with your sanity?;) stay strong!


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Thanks, wooba, for your validation here. It does help every time someone says I'm not crazy. I wish I didn't still need this validation sometimes, but I do, and I always appreciate it. His mother is states away and has no idea how his behavior has changed toward me and with his new friends. Even some of the coworker friends he's talking to on the phone now who I'd met before all this--well, I don't know what they imagine, but he sounds perfectly normal when he talks to them. He's said numerous things to them in the last week that paint him as this sensitive, in-touch-with-his-feelings guy. This is the guy he thinks he is--this is the guy I used to think he was in our early M, before I realized over time he doesn't know how to process feelings. He practically brags about crying easily, which he's always done ("not like other guys!"), another time says he is incapable of worry, he doesn't worry (it used to be that he's incapable of being unhappy, nothing makes him unhappy!)--stuff like this just makes me want to roll my eyes now. It's like he can have feelings if they're convenient for him and positive, but otherwise he can't understand them or communicate them since... he never communicated to me how he was feeling about the M. The more true advertisement seems to be that he will 110% take care of your feelings at the expense of his own until one day he wakes up with a lot of resentment, and decides to blame it on you.

There is nowhere in the house I can go to not hear him! I went outside once, and I could still hear him, which is partly a function of how small the house is and how loud is voice can be. Sometimes I go for a walk. Usually it's peaceful outside, which I love.

Originally Posted by wooba
I think it goes back to the whole control thing. I think maybe your H has so little in his control right now in his life, he's just holding on to whatever he can. He's still in control of his outward image to his friends and family.


This makes sense, wooba. I think it is probably true--and it's also why he can't/doesn't entertain the thought of moving out (and maybe why he hasn't started the D process yet?). Did I already say this? He really doesn't like change. So I think he wants his life to go on as it is, plus newfound freedom and happiness and minus me. Like I just am gone one day when he comes home, but everything else is the same. I don't think it's realistic to leave your M suddenly and expect the other person to be the only one affected, but that seems to be where he is. (It seems logical to most people I talk to that if you want to leave, you are the one to leave.)

I'd like to give him a little dose of reality, but I guess I'll just have to trust he'll have to meet reality at some point. If I don't want to file and can't force him to move out, I think the only other reality I can give him is what he has said twice in the last eight months, both after/in his outbursts: he doesn't want me to think about him or care about him. I'm not to be his friend. It's not my job anymore.

Does he say this because he feels more guilt when I care, when he has been able to turn off any empathy for me? I assume I only remind him of the worst in himself and as he saw our M right now, so he's had to push me as far away as he can. Keep in mind this is a guy who had always remained friends with his exes in HS/college--he was such a sensitive, nice guy! His parents D when he was so young he says he doesn't remember it, and since I've known them they've been friends and have cared for each other--he's had the model of them being D but friends his whole life.

Anyway, so I had already cut back on small talk in January, but would still joke with him when he was in a good mood. I haven't had much interest since his last outburst. I've felt like... if he doesn't think of me as an equal, I have no interest in conversing with him. One thing this time of stay-at-home has done is open my eyes to how different he really is, and how he is not someone who would be able to be in an M or even R right now. He is not someone who would do the work to be with me, to deserve someone who is willing to work in a long-term R. He may seem like a catch to someone who doesn't know what's going on, but I know he has much work to do within himself.

Wooba, I loved to read your brief, disinterested responses to your H in one of your lasts posts. I feel like I'm more disinterested in H than I've ever been. I've pretty much stopped talking to him at all, and if he does say something to me, I keep my response polite but short. I want to keep your brief responses in mind should he every bring up financial stuff or anything else again.

When he is gone now (even when I doubt he's practicing social distancing), I'm just happy to have the house to myself. To have the outer environment reflect my inner peace. I think about how I'll feel relief in some future time when we aren't living together anymore... but I also know I'll feel sad at that point, because I'll still have to grieve over that loss, and over what was. I guess it's good to realize now I won't just immediately feel happy and relieved 100% of the time.

I have thoughts inspired by other threads I want to share, but this is already long, so I think I'll wait. I hope everyone is having a good weekend!


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Originally Posted by cardinal
It's like he can have feelings if they're convenient for him and positive, but otherwise he can't understand them or communicate them since... he never communicated to me how he was feeling about the M. The more true advertisement seems to be that he will 110% take care of your feelings at the expense of his own until one day he wakes up with a lot of resentment, and decides to blame it on you.


Hi Cardinal, Thank you for your hugs and comments on my page. It stinks to know that other people are suffering but it is definitely a comfort to know we have virtual friends and a place to come that promotes kindness and most of all understanding...both when we are feeling weak or strong.
Even though I (we) don’t feel at times we are strong, we are! To have already come this far and taken the time to realize that something wasn’t right instead of just throwing our hands up and making a bad situation worse. Even if it continues to go down the path we don’t want at least we’ll know we tried our best.
I truly emphasize with your above statement. That is EXACLY how I too feel. And how were we to read minds to know there was a ticking time bomb waiting to go off? For all the closeness all the great times this awful shift is so difficult to digest.
I also find your comment about H not being someone to “do the work”... it’s funny how they walk out on years of a strong relationship in need of some tlc but fully feel they can put the “work” into something new. I don’t get it.

Thinking of you Cardinal and hope you’re doing alright (((Cardinal)))

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Originally Posted by cardinal
I'm sorry to hear that you can't escape from his noises in the house. I guess it makes the time when he's actually gone that much more peaceful and quiet.


What your H said is actually what you should aim for. He is asking you to detach! His intentions do not matter, who knows what these WASes are thinking anyway? The brief & disinterested responses are totally counter-intuitive because we are trained to be caretakers and fixers. But just as you were trained to do the things you used to do before, you can train yourself with using these responses, and eventually it will become easier. It's actually pretty difficult for me because I tend to normally be upbeat and positive anyway, but when H shows up I don't want to give off the vibe like I wanna hang out and chat so I have to put my game face on (which is like a calmer version of PMS lol). Thank goodness he usually gets it and will not hang around much.

Last edited by job; 05/18/20 02:56 PM. Reason: fixed quote

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Cardinal, I was wondering something. Whenever I read your posts (and this may be totally wrong, so please forgive me if I'm misinterpreting) I get the feeling that you are making yourself small, kind of, for him. You are always accommodating, kind, quiet. He plays his records loudly and has loud conversations late into the night and you don't complain. He goes as far as to invite someone over into your home during this pandemic and when you have the temerity to simply say it made you feel uncomfortable, he goes ballistic.

I don't like thinking of you like this, because I don't get the sense that is who you are. It seems like he's totally taking advantage of you. And I may be totally misreading what is happening. But it feels to me, a little, like you are bending, and shifting, and accommodating him and his crazy MLC and maybe you are packing yourself into a little corner of your house, physically or otherwise. The thing about your IC saying he isn't treating you like a human being really hit me hard.

If you think there is any truth to this-- and there may not be-- is there a way for you to make yourself big, again? Play your own music and don't apologize for it? I wouldn't get headphones, I'd get one of those little bluetooth speakers if you don't have one already and just play music wherever you are loud enough to drown out his chatting. Drink all the milk or eat all the ice cream or whatever and don't worry about replacing it for him, only if you want to. Leave your stuff around the house and don't put it away (again, unless you're doing it for you, not because you are worried what he might think). Buy something new for the house, even just like new throw pillows or something, and make it yours. Be YOU without any worries of what he'll think or how he'll feel or what he'll do. I'm not saying be a jerk, or be like him. Just don't be afraid to be yourself and to not think about him at all for awhile, if you can.

(((CARDINAL))) I haven't baked this week, but thinking of making pasta again soon. I still want to try that cinnamon roll recipe now that I have yeast again!


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May22 and Cardinal -- I did this too. For six years. Then he filed and I kept doing it. He wouldn't move out. I finally had to pay him to move out. When I started standing up for myself, the divorce got worse. I made myself small in court too, trying to please the judge who did not understand what was going on and believed his lies about money.

Now I had to fire my L, he was awful anyway, but I am out of money. And now I can be big. I don't care anymore what the judge thinks. She hated me when I was small, now she can hate me when I am big, but at least my voice will be heard.

I don't think you should look for ways to be big to show him anything, but I just want to chime in that it won't work to be small. For the faith folks -- That does work with John the Baptist because the goal is to make something great greater. If you are small in the face of your H's wrongs, you will only make the wrong greater.

It won't work either to be bigger to show him anything, but if there is a way for you to find yourself and do what you want and block him out and not lose who you are, do it. I am not sure it's possible to know why you are doing anything while the MLC lives with you. I couldn't. But my H was living in our living room so if your house is big enough to live separately in your house, maybe you can figure it out better than I could.

He won't see you as you during MLC, no matter how small or big you are. Only do things for you, to find yourself again.

With love from Gerda.


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wooba, may, Gerda, I was so grateful for your posts, questions, and guidance. I've been reflecting quite a bit on our past relationship and how I have struggled to find and project compassionate indifference over the almost-year since BD.

I think I'll continue this post in a new thread, since I'll be at 100 with this reply...


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