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A Message from Michele
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Re: A country boy (and girl) can survive [Re: Dawn70] #2902321
08/19/20 03:28 AM
08/19/20 03:28 AM
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kml Offline
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The same arguments were made against the minimum wage, and to keep the minimum wage from rising with inflation. Iím sorry, sometimes people need laws to make them be decent to other human beings.

Re: A country boy (and girl) can survive [Re: Dawn70] #2902348
08/19/20 02:41 PM
08/19/20 02:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 3,365
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AndrewP Offline
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Glad Sparky is feeling better. How are you going to manage not having your own person chef waiting for you though?

I get the stress of having that income drop off. I'm on salary but "manage" people who are paid hourly. When I have to cut back their hours, it hits them right in the pocket-book.

When we were younger we did free-lance work. It was tough. Now work, no money. And because we were free-lance there was no social safety net of unemployment to catch us during the lean times.

I'm sure stories like your's are playing out all around the world right now which is perhaps no consolation. I used to think that the various societies around the world will get through the current troubles unchanged. I'm not so sure any more but don't now what those changes would be.

Hopefully your own work is getting sorted out - been a bit worried about you given the reports that are coming out from schools that have reopened so far.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Re: A country boy (and girl) can survive [Re: kml] #2902355
08/19/20 04:08 PM
08/19/20 04:08 PM
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Posts: 1,834
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DonH Offline
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Originally Posted by kml
The same arguments were made against the minimum wage, and to keep the minimum wage from rising with inflation. Iím sorry, sometimes people need laws to make them be decent to other human beings.

Wow! I guess I at least give you credit for admitting this amounts to trying to legislate morality. I just fundamentally and wholeheartedly disagree. The law should not be about forcing people to do what one group feels is correct or nice. It should be to keep people safe from attack or damage - not to force decency. Decency should come from within and when forced very often has unintended consequences And never ends up working anyway. Artificially raising the minimum wage above what the market will bare Or can sustain often just results in those jobs going away altogether leaving the employee with nothing and back on public assistance. The best way to obtain a living wage is to obtain and offer skills that the market see as valuable and have to pay appropriately for if they want to hire the person - not force people to be overpaid for their lack of skills.

Laws to make people be nice and decent rather than hold up the rule of law. Iíll pass.


DonH
Midwest
Me 56
WAW-EXW 55
Met 11/95 / Married 5/00
Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06
4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
Re: A country boy (and girl) can survive [Re: Dawn70] #2902358
08/19/20 04:49 PM
08/19/20 04:49 PM
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Dawn70 Offline OP
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Kml and Don, thanks for all of your comments. With all due respect, kml, I think that, like Don, I fundamentally disagree with you. I can't speak for anyone else anywhere else, but I do know how things work in my state and the situation that Sparky is in is far more typical than not. There are many small, family-owned businesses that provide no perks for employees and as I said in a previous post, my own dad is one of those. I'm not privy to the financial interworkings of the business that my husband works for but I am privy to my dad's and I know that he pays his 2 employees well and takes care of them in a number of other small ways, but if they do not come to work because they are sick, then they do not get paid for those days they missed. My dad is generous in giving extra money when he can, based on his business income, but he just doesn't have the wherewithal to provide insurance and sick pay, but that doesn't mean he isn't a decent human being or trying to help his employees as best he can. He must be doing something right because he's had one of his employees for over 20 years.

Sparky works for a small, family-owned business that does welding, sandblasting, painting and other metal fab work. They are busy all the time, but in this economy they just don't have extra to pay for benefits. Again, I don't think it means they aren't decent people, because they are. It just is what it is. Sparky works there for a variety of personal reasons that I won't go into here, but in this particular time and economy, we are thankful he has a job. He would like to move to something different, but the reality of our situation right now is that we are supporting 2 households (ours and his mother's) and he and I both must work in order to make sure we keep the bills paid and the lights on. Once his mom gets her stuff lined out, which she is working on now, we will be in a better position to get Sparky to a different job where he can earn more pay and better benefits. Sparky does not have a college degree, but that doesn't necessarily mean he can't get a good-paying job with benefits. My brother doesn't have a college degree either and has a great job in a supervisory position making VERY good money, so Sparky could move that direction as well, but unfortunately, right now, we are kind of stuck where we are and so we have to live with it. As I think Don pointed out a few posts back, no one forces Sparky to work there and I agree, but the pay is pretty good, particularly for what he does, and despite the lack of benefits, he enjoys his job and the people he works with and there is something to be said for that. He works there, for now, out of necessity, to take care of his mom. If we didn't have the load of her financial obligations on our back, I wouldn't care if he just decided to be a stay at home dog dad because I could support our household easily on my income alone.

I say again, kml, that what you said in your posts is a beautiful theory and I'm glad you are in a position where you can afford to pay part-time employees and others sick pay and insurance and the like. That is awesome that you can do it and what a great thing for them to receive it. Unfortunately, though, that is NOT the same world that we all live in. It would be great if it were, but it isn't and I don't think business owners who can't afford those things should be legislated into doing it. Sparky works where he works mainly by choice, but also because the economy just [censored] right now and it is hard to find a decent job that isn't just a minimum wage job. We will continue to slog along until we can put him in a better position, but it doesn't mean that I can't gripe that he's missing out on pay because he is sick. I do NOT think that it makes his boss someone who is not decent though. It is just the reality of how he runs his business.

Andrew, thank you for your concern. We are 3 days in, students have actually been back for over a week (they moved in the weekend of August 7) and we have had a few incidences that I know of where students have already had to quarantine and be tested, but we have not had a huge outbreak. Classes in person require masks, social distancing and lots of wiping chairs and desks with alcohol wipes and using hand sanitizer both entering and leaving the classroom. My class is fully online, by vote of our department and due to budget constraints, so I don't have a lot of interaction with students, but still have a good bit with faculty since I'm the lab coordinator and some are still doing in person labs. Some of the other faculty are really upset that students aren't social distancing, but what did they expect? I mean, they do in classrooms, because they have to, but once they are outside, of course a bunch of hormonal kids aren't going to stay 6 feet apart. The next couple of weeks will be interesting to say the least. As far as my personal chef, yeah, I'm sad he's going back to work today as that means I will lost all these fancy meals, at least during the week, but he'll still cook on weekends. And occasionally through the week as well. We'll see what happens, but he really likes to cook so he won't stop altogether.

We have a weekend get-away scheduled for the last weekend of this month and I am SOOOOOOOOOOOO ready. A cabin in the woods with a hot tub on the deck. Near the river so if he wants to fish he can just walk a little ways from the cabin. No phones, no work, no worries, just relaxing and sleeping late and playing in the water. Oh how I need this break from reality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 10 days and counting.


Me 50, H52
Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014
Marriage #2 12/31/2019
5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships)
4 grandkids (plus 2 on the way)
Re: A country boy (and girl) can survive [Re: Dawn70] #2902370
08/19/20 06:28 PM
08/19/20 06:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,220
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kml Offline
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Go to wikipedia and look up minimum wage per country and paid leave per country. Almost EVERY first world country has 20 days or more paid leave per year and minimum wages range from $11 to $19. Then ask yourselves why the U.S., one of the wealthiest countries in the world, can't offer our workers the same?

Yes, we had to legislate or strike to get an end to slavery, a 40 hour work week, overtime pay, etc etc. Sometimes legislation is necessary for fairness.

Re: A country boy (and girl) can survive [Re: Dawn70] #2902371
08/19/20 06:28 PM
08/19/20 06:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,598
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Dawn70 Offline OP
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Lord have mercy....someone needs to come get their children! Y'all, I'm not a computer specialist nor an IT person, but our campus department is USELESS! We have this "new" online learning system and I have my class set up in it and I spent 2 days last week going through a training on it so I got it. But, I had obviously done something wrong so that when I loaded stuff into my class a few students were having trouble accessing it. I emailed, as I was told to do, and laid out my question along with an explanation of how I put the file on the page. The answer the IT person sent me back was that I had clearly tried to link from a different course and the link wasn't showing up properly. Uh, NO.....I linked directly from my computer just like the instructions told me to do. But, then, I was frustrated and spent a darned hour looking around and finally figured out that I had a setting wrong that would prevent access. I fixed that and bingo bango, students can see now, but seriously, no matter what question I ask, I always give a detailed explanation of how I did something and almost without fail, a response will come back to me telling me to do exactly what I already said I did in my explanation in the first place. Seriously, dudes.....READ YOUR D@MN EMAIL!

On top of that, a company has been in our building since March working on changing our A/C system over to another existing system on campus. Well, they still don't have it right and it is 50 degrees in some of the rooms on the 2nd floor. Of course, everyone comes and complains to me and I keep being told they are "working on it" when there is NO ONE in the building from that company so not really sure how they are working on it.

I'm done...ÖÖ..I just had to vent for a second. Is it Friday yet, because I'm pretty sure I have already been here for about 212 hours this week. frown


Me 50, H52
Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014
Marriage #2 12/31/2019
5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships)
4 grandkids (plus 2 on the way)
Re: A country boy (and girl) can survive [Re: kml] #2902387
08/19/20 08:34 PM
08/19/20 08:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,598
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Dawn70 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kml
Go to wikipedia and look up minimum wage per country and paid leave per country. Almost EVERY first world country has 20 days or more paid leave per year and minimum wages range from $11 to $19. Then ask yourselves why the U.S., one of the wealthiest countries in the world, can't offer our workers the same?

Yes, we had to legislate or strike to get an end to slavery, a 40 hour work week, overtime pay, etc etc. Sometimes legislation is necessary for fairness.


I understand and respect your position and I am familiar with what other countries offer and what we donít because of similar discussions with others. I just donít happen to agree that legislating decency is the key. Like I said, Iím glad you and other business owners can do it. I hate that my husband works for a business owner who canít but that is his/our choice for him to continue to work there so I will continue to be supportive but Iíll also continue to b1tch about him missing pay when he is sick. Someday maybe his boss will change policy or Sparky will go to work somewhere else but for now, we do what we have to do. I donít see a way that some small businesses can even stay in business paying a $15 minimum wage and even if they could, is that enough? I mean, using the logic that it would take at least that to make for a livable wage for workers, canít we also argue that some areas have much higher cost of living so those areas would need a minimum wage of $20 an hour to have what is considered a livable wage? Where does it end?


Me 50, H52
Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014
Marriage #2 12/31/2019
5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships)
4 grandkids (plus 2 on the way)
Re: A country boy (and girl) can survive [Re: Dawn70] #2902408
08/20/20 04:19 AM
08/20/20 04:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 227
Midwest
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harvey Offline
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Interested in where you get your figures on minimum wage? Australia appears to be around the highest at $15/hour, but most of the European countries are at $9-11. Spain is around $7. Japan is around $7. South Korea around $9. Canada varies by province. USA varies by state ($7.25 to $14). Most countries are well below the USA.


Last edited by job; 08/20/20 01:37 PM. Reason: Removed link to another site not related to DB
Re: A country boy (and girl) can survive [Re: Dawn70] #2902419
08/20/20 01:36 PM
08/20/20 01:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,220
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kml Offline
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Spain and Portugal are the outliers of Western Europe as they are very poor. New Zealand was $19. Most countries comparable to the US (France, Germany etc) were in the 11-16 dollar range. Also remember thatís with healthcare. $7.25 is an embarrassment.

Re: A country boy (and girl) can survive [Re: kml] #2902420
08/20/20 05:07 PM
08/20/20 05:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 227
Midwest
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harvey Offline
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Originally Posted by kml
Spain and Portugal are the outliers of Western Europe as they are very poor. New Zealand was $19. Most countries comparable to the US (France, Germany etc) were in the 11-16 dollar range. Also remember thatís with healthcare. $7.25 is an embarrassment.


I don't see the same as you in the link you provided. France and Germany are at $11 USD/hour.

Few people actually make minimum wage in this country. A majority are young, and a huge percentage (80%) are part-time workers. Minimum wage isn't meant to be a livable wage. If you raise minimum wage too much, you'll lose some jobs altogether. Historically, our unemployment rates are low and salaries are much higher than other countries. You don't have to look at statistics to know our economic system works. Just go to other countries. As an airline employee, I get to travel to a lot of countries. Our system gives extrinsic incentives to better oneself. It rewards hard work and personal responsibility. I think we strike the right balance.

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