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#2888989 03/11/20 09:36 PM
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What if my spouse has begun to display contempt for me due to toxic marriage basically our entire marriage?

We have fought for years.

He started out totally in love with me. things I did to push him away, jealousy, insecurity, accusing, suffocating him in his words and always thinking the worst of things.

He has done thing to hurt me too. Refusal to go to counseling. Refusal to talk fairly about problems. Shutting down for weeks and months at a time. Not even acknowledging my existence.

We both react badly off of eachother.

He first wanted a divorce years ago very soon after we first got married. I continued living in the home because I had no job and he felt bad for me. After he said he wanted a divorce it was almost an entire year of living together and him catering to my broken heart. I knew he still loved me deeply though because he would still try to interact with me. Still do things as a married couple like assure me there was no one. And I know there was no one. It was basically because he saw no hope for us. But... I know he kept me around and didnt file because even though he didnt want to admit there was hope, I knew he was still hoping.

We finally decided to give it another shot. I really was so happy. I had my husband back. But he still didnt want to go to counseling. Still would shut down for long periods of time and not go to therapy. But he did start taking me out on dates again and going to family functions. I knew I should be thankful for that and I was but I guess I couldn't handle the withdraw of him still not opening up to me sexually, not showing affection. Etc.

I feel like I pushed for too much too soon. I also believe that my unhealthy life. Like not having any friends and putting all my energy into us and not myself pushed him away more and more.

Our fights are horrible. Me always pushing, him always pulling. He finally said I was pushing him over the edge when I kept trying to communicate. It had been more than a month of no talking and just fighting. I was furious. He would literally stand up and walk away when I would beg him to talk. I admit I freaked out many times because of it.

He said this time we are over but there was no sweetness about it. He literally has this hatred of me. Saying hes so sick of me, cant stand me. I feel like I blew it this time. But... I feel like he did too. He wouldnt go to counseling or really even read a book without my forcing him too.

If this is the second time he has said he wants a divorce and there is no fixing it because it is too toxic... should I just finally give up like he wants me to?

He also has said we are too unhealthy emotionally for eachother and we make eachother miserable and he wishes for us to be happy in the end with ourselves. I asked if we were able to learn to be more healthy individually if he felt we could be happy together. He got angry and said no, stop asking questions because it's just torturing both of us.

I feel in my heart we could be happy because when we are good we are good. It's our faults within that get in the way. I know if I had my own life and stopped depending so much on him we probably would not have gotten to this point...

I'm lost. Please help.

Every interaction I have with him is downright toxic now and I am seeing sides to him I have never seen before. What do I do?

pharm75 #2889002 03/11/20 10:34 PM
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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


Me-70, D37,S36
pharm75 #2889025 03/12/20 02:13 AM
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pharm75 Offline OP
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Ty for taking the time to reply to me. I will check the links tomorrow.

pharm75 #2889030 03/12/20 02:38 AM
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Hi Pharm,
Sorry you are here. Its sounds like you're feeling plenty of intense anxiety and many here know how hard it can be.

Some of the vets around here will likely have better advice than I, I just want to say that I can relate. My W is somewhat of an avoidant, and I'm anxious. You (anxious) and H (avoidant) have a similar dynamic which can get toxic when taken to the extremes. One of the links Cadet posted (pursuit and distance) can help explain the dynamic.

Many of us here are fixers. You may be as well. We want to fix the issues, fix the marriage and fix our partners feelings. This leads to control and desperation. We cant fix them, we cant control them. Do your best to understand that. Easier said than done as I revert back alot. You control one person, YOU.

Dont look for answers as to why he is broken. Its a waste of time many fall in to. What you want to do is fix YOU. Ive read that in pursuit/distance or anxious/avoidant relationships, as one spouse gets nearer to a secure baseline, the other spouse CAN become less extreme. No guarantees of course. Your goal is to do everything for you. Not H or the marriage. If you fix you, yes maybe he comes back, and if not, you are still better in your future life.

Self reflect on what actions and behaviors of yours contributed to this. 180 those behaviors and make them permanent. Feel your feelings, dont mask them. For anxiety, CBD oil, counseling, swimming and other exercises have helped.

His words and actions cut deep and I'm sorry, I know it hurts. What he is feeling is what he is feeling NOW. As you've seen, feelings can change. You're likely the brunt of all his feelings as it is easier to blame than to face them himself. Easier to avoid and be a victim. He may realize this, he may not. These things take a long time and patience is an asset.

Good luck Pharm.


H37, W37
D4, S2
ILYBNILWY 9/19
BD 9/19
EA discovered 10/19
Currently in limbo, no D or S process initiated
pharm75 #2889032 03/12/20 03:11 AM
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Hi pharm, Sorry you are here, but there is lots of support here.

First of all, make sure you have the Divorce Remedy book by Michelle Weiner Davis. She addresses a lot of what you have dealt with. This book is for your eyes only, and not for your spouse. Do not mention it to them.

Go through all the threads listed in Cadet's welcome email and study them. There are so many gems there. These threads will help you to fight your natural instinct. Your instinct will tell you to pursue him, beg, plead, reason. These things are deadly. Stop doing them right now.

They will also advise you about how to get your own life, or GAL, which will address your point about losing yourself for the marriage. Work on your self first.

I know this is painful, scary, and hard. Keep posting here, and look at the other threads for good advice that can apply to your situation.


the best apology is changed behavior.
***************
me: 45 h: 48
m: 23 T: 26
DD1:19 DD2:16 DS:11
BD1: PA for 2 yrs 08/2016
BD2: OW is one of my closest friends 12/2016
BD3: H wants a D 11/2019
pharm75 #2889040 03/12/20 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by pharm75
I know if I had my own life and stopped depending so much on him we probably would not have gotten to this point... What do I do?

I'm so sorry you're here. While you wait for the book, check out Sandi's 37 rules. It sounds like you're ahead of the game in already knowing what your focus should be---GAL (Get-A-Life).

pharm75 #2889041 03/12/20 04:55 AM
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Hey Pharm,

I'm not sure how much advice we can truly give you yet. It sounds like y'all had some problems, some normal, some not so normal.

I think you should take the pressure off of him and off of you for the time being. Take some time and space to breath and figure out who you are and what you want.

If every interaction is bad right now you need to change how you interact or limit your interactions.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Core #2889089 03/12/20 03:13 PM
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I don't know how to reply all to everyone but this is in response to all of the responses i have read so far.

First, I have ordered the Divorce Remedy book and in the meantime I have printed off the Dos and Don'ts List and I am browsing through the above links that Cadet posted.

There is just sooo much to say and when I post I think about a million other things I could have divulged to you all.

I guess the biggest thing that confuses me or that I wonder about is if I truly should even pursue this at all. I know in my heart I do not want to have a divorce. I know in my heart that I have contributed to so much of these problems. My husband is bipolar and I have a personality disorder. No, I am not a narcissist. I sometimes think he may be though. I have trouble regulating my emotions. And when he withdraws or is cruel then I freak out on him.

This has been the dynamic for years. Recently, he has said things like,

"Im so sick of you..."
"I cannot stand you anymore."
"You suck the happiness out of life"...

He even told me that he hated me. I never ever have heard him talk this way before.

Then in his calm moments he has said,

"Not all of my unhappiness is from us. I am not happy with my family (his parents will die soon), financial worries, his social life (lack of it) and he only keeps his job because its stable but it isn't what I want to be doing. I am not happy in general."

"I want peace and not to create toxicity or to receive it. I don't know what's going to make me happy in the end but this cycle is destructive to both of us and it just worsens."

"We do not work."


During that conversation, I agreed. Because I ACTUALLY agreed. It is toxic. I told him that I think we should focus on ourselves and he agreed and then said that we both have deep issues and he wants both of to be happy inside with ourselves after all of this.

I thought that meant we should focus on ourselves and work on the marriage later but he is saying this marriage has no chance and that he is done. He wants me to stop trying to connect with him. I see him trying to detach from me.

Would it be wrong to even want this marriage to work knowing that is how he feels? Knowing that we hurt each other?

I sort of feel calm a lot of the time which is a drastic difference from the first time he said he wanted a divorce years ago. I had a few days of breaking down and pursuing but since then I have backed off pretty much entirely. I stay in my corner of the house, go to work, keep to myself. Years ago that was not the case. I was an absolute mess for several months.

I feel sort of relieved in a way because I know that I have this time to really focus on me. I have neglected and avoided focusing on me and putting all of my energy into us. But just because I feel relieved to have this chance to clean myself up and attend to my long avoided issues (the number one being getting a social life), doesnt mean I want to get a divorce. HE DOES though. He has said he has had enough and I pushed him too far.

My mom told me if ever there is a chance for this marriage to ever work, I would have to completely give up all hope that it could. I would have to NEVER bring up any mention of hope to him.

So... I guess I can keep that hope to myself. Either way, I have to attend to me. I wish he would attend to him as well to better himself.. I wish he could want to put in the effort I have. As I said, we both have issues. The difference is, I have been to years of counseling by myself when he wouldn't go. I stopped drinking. I found a job in the government. But when I look back, he continues to drink, to watch porn, to isolate, and has never once tried to go to therapy. And as far as him getting medicated for his depression he said no way, and that I can understand as he is active duty and is would make him not eligible to deploy.

A friend of mine said if I was in the military and saving my marriage was the mission, I would have a ton of medals. But while I once thought that to be true, I think all the therapy and the book reading and all were not the full answer. I applied bits and peices of what I learned, and I certainly made big changes that I am proud of myself for! But what I never did was learn to get my own life. These past few years have been my marriage first, us first, me last. And somehow deep down I knew that was probably the most important thing I can do. I don't know why I couldnt...

Im rambling. I truly do love this man. I have only written about the toxicity. The troubles. But there is another side to us and its what makes me want to work harder. He gets me. He has been someone I have been in love with since I first met him in high school. We did not get married until years later, in fact we lost touch for about 15 years. But i never forgot him, always compared people to him. I love the man, I really do. I get so angry that we both have such messed up pasts that have interferred with our marriage. It doesn't seem fair.

When someone says they are not happy, that you have beaten all of the "care" out of them, that its toxic and they want it to end... does that fall into another category? Is there any hope? I just feel there is still. I don't know.

pharm75 #2889103 03/12/20 03:55 PM
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Should you D or not D, is there hope...the one to best answer that question is you. Take the time to think about it, you dont need a decision today. I still ask myself daily and the others here keep giving me good feedback. Its a decision you live with the rest of your life. It doesnt look like you have kids which lessens complexity, thankfully.

Its sounds like you don't want it, is that true? Its ok either way and its ok to change your mind. If you make the decision to D, make sure you have no doubt and consistently want it. I'm 8+ months in limbo and neither W nor I can make the call to D. At first she said all kinds of terrible things like your H did. Its a vicious defense mechanism. "We are toxic for each other", "I never truly loved you", "You're abusive and hurtful", "you make me anxious", "im 100 percent sure I want D and I'm checked out". It continued quite a bit. One of the reasons the vets recommend no relationship chats. After a few months in I heard, "I still love you", "I dont know what I want".

Mental illness is no joke. It sounds like he needs help as well but it shouldn't be you to push him to get help. You're his W and partner. He doesn't want to perceive you as a mother or counselor. He wants or wanted to be loved for who he is, good and bad. If down the road, the loving support is there, he may open up. He may not.

If he doesnt change, will you want him back? Are you willing to wait it out to see if a change occurs? He may always be a distancer, are you ok with that?


H37, W37
D4, S2
ILYBNILWY 9/19
BD 9/19
EA discovered 10/19
Currently in limbo, no D or S process initiated
pharm75 #2889107 03/12/20 04:15 PM
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You ask a really good question and that is if I want it. To be honest for so long I thought yes but now that I see how much pain I am causing him and that he causes me I'm almost in agreeance with him.

The one thing I keep going back to is that I know in my heart that if I had my own life and didn't depend on him and other people to fulfill my joy so many issues wouldn't have become issues. There has been an unhealthy dynamic from the start that we both went into this way and we both know that it needs to change. If he told me today he wanted to work on this marriage if he told me to day he wanted to be with me and that he loves me I would absolutely want to be with him.



But to keep chasing someone and trying to force something doesn't seem genuine it seems the opposite of love. Yes I do love this man I love him very much and he does things the pisses me off he does things that hurt me but a lot of those things I don't think would hurt me so badd if I had others to rely on. An example would be how hes such a homebody but I am not home body I like to go out and do things I love to be outdoors. I don't think that that should break a relationship because the 2 are different. I saw my grandparents married in my grandfather was just like my husband he would sit in a recliner in drink and he loved to be watching TV and just keep to himself and then work outdoors on small projects he would be social from time to time but for the most part he was just a guy that liked to be by himself. From what my mom told me my grandma was very lonely for a long time but she learned to get her own life in to make friends that would do the things that she wants to do and it worked for them.



I've always had a problem depending on people to fill voids in my life and in fact every single relationship I've ever had has come to an end because of that dependency in my insecurities so I know that it's something I need to change for me because it will just continue if I ever have another relationship again and I don't want that.

I want my marriage to work that's what I do know I think it is sort of a bit tragic to see 2 people who genuinely do love each other have to end because of problems like this. I know deep in my heart he still cares about me and I wouldn't say that if I didn't really think it. I guess I agree with a lot of people here in that I don't like the word divorce I don't like giving up its not something I want for my life. I do agree that quite a bit of space is needed for both of us and this is just from my point of view. I wish that he felt the same way and I struggle because I don't want to for someone who truly wants to be away from me.

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