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#2888554 03/09/20 09:13 AM
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kto626 Offline OP
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My background:
Married 4.5 years (together 9 years) and have a 3 year old. W-37 and H-38. 1.5 years ago she starts to say "ILYBNILWY". We fight, she returns and apologize. This happens more and more so we each go to IC and couples (started 6-7 months ago). My W is the most defensive person I know. She runs from every little problem b/c she doesn't want to face it. She had a terrible childhood and was essentially abandoned by her mom until her stepmom took her in at 12 years old,

Current Situation: After many nights of my W going out until 1-2am, taking 4 hours to run errands, and going to her 45 min IC but being gone for 2-3 hours, I broke into her social media and found her talking to OM about how good the night was before. She first said the affair lasted 3 months, then I asked it again and she said it was 6. But then I found videos she made for him that went back 13-14 months...all the way back to the ILYBNILWY statement. She left the house on D-Day. We talk daily and we have gone back to couples therapy. She says she wants to take time for herself, she doesn't want to be with me, but she's not sure if she wants a divorce. She says she is talking to the other guy and not seeing him. But I know she has seen him a couple times. She can't give him up. In the 2nd couples therapy I said I don't accept that she's seeing him and I will move forward without her if she continues. The therapist pressed her on how unhealthy that is to continue, regardless of what she decides with he. The 3rd session she said she feels pressured to make a decision and she still needs time. She still said she wasn't seeing him but I found out she did. So she's still lying. She barely apologizes and gets mad when I talk about moving on. I said I would open new doors of opportunity for myself while closing the one on her. She immediately jumped to me seeing other women and shut down during therapy as a result.

I want her back, but I don't want to be plan B. So Im trying to stop contact but we FaceTime with our daughter every night, I'm not used to not seeing her (she's splitting time at home and at my in-laws where my W is staying). It's hard to not chase when I talk to her everyday. I've been trying to talk to my daughter with little to no conversation with my W. But I'm also concerned because since she shuts down and runs away from problems, I'm afraid she will take the NC as a sign to run to the OM. I have always been a fixer, wanting to fix things, and my W had said to stop trying to tell her how to feel (I need to get better at this...I've tried talking to her about the affair fog). Me telling her about is a failure and pushes her away. I've spoken to a lawyer briefly and know the basics of our situation but even she said it's early to file at this point. Therapy was to a) figure out if we want a divorce and b) mediate there to save money. There had been no mediating attempts by her at all. I asked numerous times for her to pickup her stuff and she didn't. So I bagged all her clothes and again for weeks didn't get them but now she has. She still has lots and lots of stuff at the house but has made no plans to get them. She is making no effort to really end this so it makes me think she is taking time to think...while still seeing this OM.

Advice: so many lies, so much hurt. but I still love her and we have a 3 year old. I don't know if it will work but I want to try. It seems like she don't close the door on us and what's to test drive the OM. What do I do? Move on? Fight? Again, it's been 6 weeks and the last couples therapy I said I was done and canceled the next appointment. The therapist urged me not to and booked an appointment for two weeks out so I could think about it. The last session was the most productive but she won't stop with the OM. I can't wait forever even though I want to.

Is this affair fog or is she really done? What do info to move forward knowing I talk to her almost daily for our 3 year old? Should I continue going to couples therapy (I will continue IC)? Please any advice or help!

kto626 #2888566 03/09/20 12:12 PM
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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


Me-70, D37,S36
kto626 #2888574 03/09/20 12:46 PM
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Sorry man, I know this is tough. But you will find the advice and support you are looking for here.

I would stop couple therapy, immediately. Say something to her like: "I feel like couples therapy is just going through the motions at this point. I have decided to stop it. I will continue with IC. So much has happened I need to try to get it all sorted out and decide what to do next for myself."

Keep your conversations with her only about 3 year-old. Nothing else. Avoid R talks at all costs. If she does start one, listen and validate.

I do have to ask, you say you love her and want to save things, but she is actively in an affair. One she refuses to stop. At this point what are you trying to save?

Likely she is keeping you around because OM is just using her as a piece of meat, deep down she knows this, and knows at some point she will need to come back to you, her Plan B. The best thing I can see you doing at this point is to take her Plan B away. I would highly consider retaining a lawyer and filing for D. I think your case is a pretty good one, you'll definitely get 50/50 custody, maybe more if her leaving is considered abandonment.

Hang in there, I know you are hurting, but it does get better. Just remember: BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS.


M(53), W(54),D(19)
M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
SteveLW #2888587 03/09/20 02:30 PM
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Quote
I do have to ask, you say you love her and want to save things, but she is actively in an affair. One she refuses to stop. At this point what are you trying to save?



I guess I'm trying to save us. I keep reading about the affair fog and if she is in it, which a lot of things sound like she is, her behavior is typical. Meaning, wanting to keep me as plan B until she's out of the fog. But I could be just telling myself that.

Everything I read and learn in therapy is time is on my side. I guess I'm taking it hoping she will come back. So filing for divorce isn't following that plan. Why file now if I can later? To scare her into reality?

Last edited by Cadet; 03/09/20 02:43 PM.
kto626 #2888596 03/09/20 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by kto626



Everything I read and learn in therapy is time is on my side. I guess I'm taking it hoping she will come back.



With all due respect, you are probably reading the things you want to read / see / apply to your situation - which is oh so common for the LBS.. They come here looking for a magic bullet / quick fix.

This isnt a quick fix - you say time is on your side - but this could be a marathon... Read a bit more on some of these posts - all are oh some similar - but few come to a quick fix - a lot of situations are 5 years / 7 years plus !

Most LBS want to stand by their vows / partner -myself included 14 months ago.

But there are 2 things to consider here ( IMO )

1) - you are also in a fog - like most LBS are - You still love your WW and want take the rough with the smooth - Which is great ( and the way it should be ) - but once your fog lifts, you may realise that she was flawed - yes.. Sorry to be blunt, but your WW was far from perfect and not the great partner you thought you married... The red flags were probably there 9 years ago and you overlooked them ( also guilty ) .. The fact she has cheating on you shows she has faults - and even if you did try again, whats to stop her looking around the next time she gets bored. If you get to the point where you see this, you may realise there is so much more to life than a WW who doesnt even stick to her vows

2) You are 38 - The same age i was when my ex went WW.. Do you really want to sit around until you are 45 plus - wasting years of your life waiting for a WW - who may never return - and even if she did, there would always be that "niggle" .. You could do so much more with your life

Drop the rope and start working on you - there are lots of posts on this.. Be the best version of you that you can be - for you... Not for WW








Last edited by MrBrside; 03/09/20 03:06 PM.

Previous username - Helpme123.. A name chosen at a desperate time..

Now Mr Brightside.. coming out of my cage, and doing just fine.
kto626 #2888597 03/09/20 03:12 PM
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Hi KTO,

I feel your pain. I've been there and done that. It was about 2 years ago that my sitch started.

I would stop all your pursuit. I believe your daily face time is pursuit. But most of the people I've shared this thought with tend to think that they must Facetime their kids every day and thus interact with their WAS. I probably won't change your mind there but you are going to limit your healing and growth this way.

I have never competed for a woman. If she doesn't see what's good in you then let her choose someone else. But you sticking around, pursuing her throughout all of this is showing her that you will tolerate disrespect, that you will lower your standards for her.

Remove the pressure. The therapist urged you to continue booking, therapists need clients. They do a noble job, but they must stay in business if they are to help everyone. I would stop going. I wouldn't explain my decision. If asked by your W, you could simply say "you know why".

Quote
I have always been a fixer, wanting to fix things, and my W had said to stop trying to tell her how to feel (I need to get better at this...I've tried talking to her about the affair fog).


I did this too. You are being logical with a low emotional IQ right now. Hear her words.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
kto626 #2888602 03/09/20 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kto626
Quote
I do have to ask, you say you love her and want to save things, but she is actively in an affair. One she refuses to stop. At this point what are you trying to save?



I guess I'm trying to save us. I keep reading about the affair fog and if she is in it, which a lot of things sound like she is, her behavior is typical. Meaning, wanting to keep me as plan B until she's out of the fog. But I could be just telling myself that.

Everything I read and learn in therapy is time is on my side. I guess I'm taking it hoping she will come back. So filing for divorce isn't following that plan. Why file now if I can later? To scare her into reality?


No, you file now so you can move forward. I am staunchly anti-D, unless a spouse is in an active affair. When that is the case, and they are unabashed about it "Yes, I am still in contact with OP and no I won't stop." then what alternatives does the LBS have?

So absolutely, do not file until you are ready to file. I guess if you aren't ready, my only question would be: if your W leaving and refusing to stop the affair doesn't make you ready, what would?


M(53), W(54),D(19)
M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
kto626 #2888605 03/09/20 03:50 PM
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As far as the affair fog, stop fixating on that. It doesn't matter. Some lying cheaters (and she IS a lying cheater) come around and break through the fog. Some never do. I know a couple of people that cheated, left, eventually married their AP and remain married until this day. This is very rare because if they'll cheat with you they'll cheat on you. But for some the affair fog is their new reality. You keep mentioning it like one day soon she will wake up and boom! The fog will be lifted. That is a terrible thing to put your hope into.

Affair fog. No affair fog. None of it matters. You need to be stopping all pursuit and pressure (including MC). You need to be going out and GAL. You need to stay in IC to deal with your own issues, 180 on bad behaviors, and become the best version of yourself that you can be. And you need to DETACH! Stop letting her words and actions affect you emotionally. And for crying out loud, STOP talking to her about all of this. You mention talking to her about the affair fog. REALLY? That is like confronting a heroin user once they are already high.

Read DR. Put it into practice. Move on without her. Eventually she might come around. Likely it will be after you've already moved on and no longer are waiting for her, but that will be her loss.


M(53), W(54),D(19)
M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
kto626 #2888610 03/09/20 04:03 PM
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I feel for you. As others mentioned, it can be a marathon. My W had a rough childhood as well, gave me ILYBNILWY, and was or is in an EA. BD was in Sept and I've seen just about 0 self reflection on her end. I'm still blamed for all her woes. Its been hard mentally to stick it out this long. Are you ready for it? The people here are with you either route you take.

I too looked for a magic bullet. I still do. Time and change are the bullets here.

If she does return, do you want her back?

I have young ones as well, make sure you yourself are the strong parent. Your child needs one through this.

If I could pass anything over to you, its to not Google about her problems, rather, work on your own. I learned things like Anxious/avoidant attachments, covert narcissists, BPD, passive aggressive behavior and so on. All it does is increase anxiety, remove hope and build resentment. All time I wish I devoted more to boundaries and validation. If your W is like mime, she rarely talks about her feelings, which makes validating a challenge requiring alot of effort.

Good luck Kto.


H37, W37
D4, S2
ILYBNILWY 9/19
BD 9/19
EA discovered 10/19
Currently in limbo, no D or S process initiated
Core #2888614 03/09/20 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Core

If I could pass anything over to you, its to not Google about her problems, rather, work on your own.


This is a great bit of advice. You cannot change her, and you cannot control her. Google all you want about the affair fog etc, but it will not change her thought process or feelings - i can pretty much garantee that - i tried!!! before i found this site, i am ashamed to say i was stupid enough ( yes it was stupid ) to google all about her state of mind (affair fog / MLC etc )and share it with her - it made zero difference because i was trying to apply logic to her emotional state of mind.. Your WW is on a high with OM and you are in the way - so let her self destruct and start to work on you.


Previous username - Helpme123.. A name chosen at a desperate time..

Now Mr Brightside.. coming out of my cage, and doing just fine.
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