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Originally Posted by scout12
Submitting to unwanted sex in order to please him never felt right, but maybe I should have done that to keep him happy. I was of the opinion that sex is something you do with, not for, your partner. But maybe I am wrong. He was never able to express how he felt about it, other than petulance and blame, which made me feel guilty and defensive. I explained many times that you cannot pour from an empty cup, and that I needed more emotional support from him without the expectation it would lead to sex. As the saying goes, women are not vending machines that you put niceness coins in until sex falls out.


Your Ex should’ve been more understanding about PPD. I mean, the pregnancy and becoming a mother alone mess with a woman’s body and brain enough without PPD already!

I don’t know about other women, but I remember for awhile I was really having conflicting feelings about my body after becoming a mom. Forgive me for being forward here- my nipples- are they for pleasure or for breastfeeding?? I felt like a cow constantly breastfeeding my baby but I somehow needed to figure out how to switch to “sexy wife” mode after the baby is full? How are we supposed to know this stuff??

But with that said, I also believe that sometimes you do it with your partner just to do it. We don’t have enough candle light dinners to set the mood first, and with a high drive partner sometimes it just needs to happen. Now looking back at my own M I feel like part of what went wrong is I didn’t examine the situation hard enough. (And I didn’t know how) I felt like I was trying so hard to match my H’s drive but it was so exhausting for me. And it was disappointing for both of us because he didn’t want to feel like I was forced, and I didn’t want him to feel like it’s still not enough. I think the key is to figure out WHY- why didn’t I want to have sex with this man? What is missing for me? Basically shifting the focus to myself instead of him.

And also obviously it takes two to tango. There’s lots of things husbands can do to help plant the seeds for the flowers to bloom instead of focusing on “poor me, I am not getting enough sex.”

Don’t beat yourself up for what’s in the past. We all have room for improvements. But I think your H wins that one, he needs A LOT of work.


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Originally Posted by wooba
I don’t know about other women, but I remember for awhile I was really having conflicting feelings about my body after becoming a mom. Forgive me for being forward here- my nipples- are they for pleasure or for breastfeeding?? I felt like a cow constantly breastfeeding my baby but I somehow needed to figure out how to switch to “sexy wife” mode after the baby is full? How are we supposed to know this stuff??

If you haven't read Mating in Captivity I highly recommend it. it really made me feel so much better about all of these feelings. And in fact probably pre-birth control, it was necessary for women to NOT feel very much like having sex because otherwise you'd just have kids on top of kids before your body was ready. So maybe it is partially protective from an evolutionary standpoint. But she also talks about the sense of being a mom being totally at odds with having desire. And that desire requires some level of selfishness, of wanting just for you, that I think is hard for a lot of moms to do. We are so used to doing everything for everyone else that it is hard, sometimes, to take something just for yourself. It feels a little wrong. And yet for me, being able to once again do things just for myself (not even in the sexual arena... I mean even making time to work out or to get a haircut or anything else that isn't absolutely necessary and is just for ME) has been enormously important in so many ways. For me, also, I spent all day long with people wanting things from me at work and then the kids wanting things from me at home, and being constantly TOUCHED *all* the time and pawed by the children, the honest last thing I wanted at the end of the day was for anyone to touch me or want anything from me. I just wanted to be. And on top of the mom part, we as women have been told over and over sexuality is bad, be a good girl and keep those legs together... until we get M and then we are supposed to be sexy and uninhibited and O just like in the porns. HA. It is all BS and none of us should feel badly if we fell victim to this load of BS we've been sold.

Originally Posted by wooba
I think the key is to figure out WHY- why didn’t I want to have sex with this man? What is missing for me? Basically shifting the focus to myself instead of him.

Completely agree... and how to cultivate desire in yourself and how to have him help set the contexts where you are able to relax and feel sexy and desirable and interested in sex. Assuming we stay together, my H will have a lot to learn in this area and I'm determined that we will work on it and talk about it. I'm not going to compromise on this one again. Feeling desire and desirable is empowering and fulfilling and I want to keep these feelings in my life going forward.

Anyway... sorry to hijack, I feel very strongly about all of this. And Scout, I agree with kml's assessment-- seeing how much you did, in such a difficult situation with PPD especially... he could have stepped up and helped you through this. His response does say a lot about who he is and nothing about who you are.


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Originally Posted by DS9
Thanks for sharing your feelings Scout. It's difficult when outside sources stir the emotions, isnt it.

I hear what you're saying but nah, that's pretty much all on him Scout. What sort of man demands sex after his wife, the mother of his child, has given birth, especially in your circumstances post birth. I'm kind of unsurprised he didn't volunteer to do more, or sleep elsewhere when Xbox became the priority. I think from what you've said here you really, really went above and beyond.

You're no vending machine, and even if you were, sounds to me like XH was substituting the coins he was putting in for those worthless copper game arcade tokens.

How's GAL? How's S2 - any nice milestones? How'd the date go you went on the other week? Future dates with him on the horizon?

Cheers DS


Thanks DS. I have to be fair to XH - he wasn't overtly demanding, he was not an ogre, he never forced himself on me. The pressure and manipulation was subtle.

He didn't do more because he didn't get anything out of it. Parenting, family life, marriage all require sacrifice without expectation of reward, and it just became tiresome to him. This man hesitated when I asked him if he regretted becoming a father. That says it all, really. He didn't do more because there was nothing in it for him. No joy.

My life is very rich and full now. I'm still investing time and effort in redecorating my home. Work is productive and fulfilling. I couldn't ask for better, deeper friendships. Dating is fun, but I LOVE (and prefer) being on my own.

S2 is the best little kid. I'm putting a lot of effort into developing his emotional intelligence. He is now able to verbalise his feelings (sad, angry, scared, tired) and recognise the appropriate action (ask for help, ask for a cuddle, take a deep breath, try again, have a rest). His daycare educators told me he is the most well-adjusted kid in his class of 2-3 year olds, and that you would never know there was any familial conflict. That made me feel so proud. There have been long periods of time over the past nine months where I have wanted to end my life, and been unable to take care of myself, but I've never faltered in taking care of S2.

I recently read a comment from Jerry Seinfeld about wanting to spend 'garbage time' with his kids, rather than quality time. Garbage time = the random nights where they want to stay up and eat a bowl of cereal after dinner for no reason. Walking past their room while your doing laundry and seeing the elaborate Lego setup they built. Driving them to school and hearing the plot of the latest Marvel movie for the tenth time. That's what I want, and that's something XH will never see as precious or valuable.

This comment got a bit long, so I'll respond to the others in a separate comment.


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Originally Posted by may22

I know you mentioned the Emily Nagowski book on Alison's thread, and I highly, highly recommend it. The other two I read were Esther Perel's Mating in Captivity and Laurie Watson's Wanting Sex Again. I would rank them in that order (Nagowski, Perel, and Watson).

Anyway, I hope you don't feel guilt around being low desire. One of the biggest things I have taken away from these books and more research about it is that I am totally normal and so are you. There is nothing wrong with you. And (the Nagowski book is particularly good at this) once you understand how desire works for YOU, you can nurture it.


Thanks May. I've got a slight aversion to Esther Perel because she's a bit of a cheater apologist, and my stance on cheating is pretty black and white (I know most people here feel otherwise). But I did enjoy a talk of hers about desire, a video I actually sent to XH way back when he first moved out, before I knew about his affair.

I love your points about nurturing desire on your own terms, not in relation to a man. This is a journey I'm looking forward to taking. Over time I allowed XH to convince me that I was broken, sexually, but I know now this is not true.

I had zero experience before I met XH at age 20, so I had no framework for what a healthy sexual relationship should look like. In hindsight, ours wasn't. We were together nearly ten years and for the first 3/4 of our relationship we had sex 3-5 times a week. Good on the surface, right?

HOWEVER, there were many, many occasions where sex felt so transactional that I would cry silently in bed afterwards while he obliviously slept. He did not know how to bring me to completion, though he did try, and I tried to help. It was never a 'him' problem or even an 'us' problem, it was a 'me' problem.

Some years ago, I invented 'the question game' to encourage emotional connection and intimacy in bed - just taking turns asking and answering questions as foreplay. He played along because he knew it would result in sex, but grumbled about it and obviously got no enjoyment from it.

Intimacy without intercourse was not enough for XH. I couldn't have intercourse without intimacy. Therein lay the rub (so to speak).


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Originally Posted by kml
Scout - it sounds to me like you made plenty of good faith efforts to remedy the problem while your H made little or no effort. It’s not surprising that his lack of support and affection worsened your postpartum depression and dampened your desire for him.

This situation revealed your H’s basic narcissism - a trait that was always there but may not have been visible to you so long as he was getting his narcissistic supply from you.


Thanks kml.

He brought me flowers and bath bombs, wrote cards on my birthday, booked me massages, took me on date nights. Those gestures were lovely and thoughtful. But I am not the same woman that he pursued and wooed pre-baby. He wouldn't, couldn't, DIDN'T see what I actually needed as a new mother. What I told him outright many times.

- Uninterrupted sleep
- Time alone without the baby
- Shared mental load
- Appreciation for my efforts as a SAHM
- Contribution to a clean house
- Intimacy without the expectation of sex

And most importantly, for him to choose me and our son over work, friends and hobbies. Subconsciously, I knew we never came first in his list of priorities unless his sense of duty compelled him. I wanted him to CHOOSE us.

He was never the type of father to rush home to see the baby. As a rule, he would come home late, tickle S2 under the chin, then disappear into the nearest screen device for the rest of the night.

When I returned to work after 11 months maternity leave, I asked H to meet me on the train platform after work with S2 so I could step off the train into my family's arms. Three days in a row I asked him to please do this one thing for me because it was really important. Sentimental and silly, but important to me. I had never been away from my baby in his short life, and I missed him like crazy. Three days in a row, he let me down with some excuse. He was running late. It was too much effort to get S2 out of his car seat. He forgot what time the train arrived.

The reality? He just did not care.


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Quote
He brought me flowers and bath bombs, wrote cards on my birthday, booked me massages, took me on date nights.


Narcissists can be very seductive. And so long as they are getting their narcissistic supply from you - it looks good. However, once they actually have to give something up - do things they don't want to do, put the needs of others ahead of themselves, love unconditionally - their true nature starts to show through.

It took me a long time to understand the role my ex's narcissism played in our marriage. I''m so easy-going and accommodating it wasn't really visible to me for a long time.

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Hey Scout

I feel subtle pressure and manipulation is still forcing himself onto you. Do you think you adopted a mindset that if you portrayed something in your mind other than what it was, it would make it more capable of processing and 'accepting'. I think I did that with certain aspects of my M to XW.

With all you describe about XH, do you think what he did (BD) was a blessing in disguise to set you free to be the woman you were meant to be, as you wouldn't have separated from him on your own volition? I'm kind of feeling that way now in my sitch.

I'm so stoked to hear about your son and how well he's doing! He sounds like a little ripper of a kid, especially with those comments from daycare and in the circumstances you're both facing. Darn right you should be proud!

Love the comments about garbage time. My son and I do this (didnt know it was a term!). Usually in the car - lot's of 'revelations' from my son, and lot's of Mhmm's and Oh's from me. He has this theory about the C-virus - its hilarious to listen to.

Keep spreading those wings Scout!

Cheers, DS


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It's been three weeks since I sent XH an email asking him to work with me on the parenting plan and de-escalate the tension for S2's sake. He hasn't responded to that, nor has he responded to my L's email negotiating the refinance period for his car loan. I'm half expecting responses today because he usually has Mondays off, but we shall see.

Last week, I sent MIL a farewell letter telling her that while I always loved XH, I was filing for divorce because infidelity is a dealbreaker for me. I laboured over this message for months and had a small breakdown once I worked up the courage to hit send. I said I was so grateful for her kindness and generosity and welcoming me into the family. I told her I didn't wish him any ill will, although I can't be friendly with him, and I hope he sorts his life out and finds happiness. I said I hoped this would bring everyone closure and that I just wanted to put the marriage behind me and be the best mother I can. I told her I knew she would love and support XH no matter what and that I will bow out of their lives gracefully, but we will always be connected through S2.

She replied yesterday:

Hi Scout, we are pleased that you are moving on with life and we wish you all the best. S2 will always be our link to you and we are happy to keep in touch. We love S2 with all our heart as we do XH and will always be there for both of them. Love MIL and FIL xx

I debated on sending the letter for a long time. It was really important to me that it not be motivated by anger, or trying to get a certain response from her. I would have been fine with no response, but what she said is fine too. Keeping this secret was like a poison dart preventing me from healing. If sending the letter was selfish, I'm okay with that. It would be the only selfish thing I've done in this whole mess. Holding it in was turning me into someone mean and small and bitter. I don't know if I did right, but I can move on with a clear and peaceful heart now.


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My L just emailed to say XH signed the consent orders for financial settlement! I'm so relieved. One step closer to being free.


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I am glad you are happy with it and I hope the rest of it works out cleanly as well. I admire your tenacity in taking care of business to protect yourself.

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