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wayfarer #2885215 02/12/20 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by wayfarer
Kiro, my H ended up in EA that became a PA but this all started with scenario 2. I could feel it starting in Spring of 19, but he'd never talk about it. No matter what I asked or how I asked it he wouldn't talk to me about it and blamed it on work, stress, literally anything but him or our R. Every single thing you wrote is exactly how all of this has been going down, except I will not bring up old memories with him. He can't see our MR as it really was any way. There's no point in trying to correct him. But this is so accurate and it's absolutely soul crushing.

Wayfare, I'm so sorry... I didn't mean to add more pain to you or anyone else. And by no mean am I trying to justify what a WAS does. I was just trying to put myself in the WAS shoes to understand how they think and why they act the way they do.

Humans are just complicated creatures. And relationships/marriages are even more complicated because they involve 2 of these complicated creatures.

But I still think the LBS has take some responsibility for how they feel. I am not saying that the LBS did anything wrong. They definitely shouldn't blame themself for what happened, but the LBS needs to take responsibility for their own life, their behavior, and their feelings... Often, as it was in my case, I allowed myself to become too dependent on my W and had lost a big part of my individuality. I should have realized that MR comes with a risk. It's common knowledge that 50% of MRs end in D. I felt that we were safe, that these statistics didn't apply to us. I took what we had for granted.

All it takes for a MR to fail is for 1 person to decide that they want something different. I thought that I owned my W's life as much as I own mine. But I was wrong. I only own my life. I can only control me.


But let me be clear.. Regardless of I wrote in my imaginary scenarios above, the WAS is the main culprit here not the LBS. The WAS allowed themself to do something wrong and then they went too far and couldn't control it anymore. Then the damage is done... Once it's done, all the stories show that it cannot go back as it was. It's just the way that humans are built unfortunately.


Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14
BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017
Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
LH19 #2885225 02/12/20 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by LH19
I guess the disappointment comes in the fact that I picked a weak person who was not willing to exhaust all options before breaking up my family.

Thanks LH for your reply...

I think you are right. this is what it boils down to. Very well said.


Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14
BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017
Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
kiro #2885227 02/12/20 05:35 PM
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Selfishness. Thatīs one of the main ingredients into MLC. From there you start with lacking empathy and resentment.
Itīs a whole different view of yourself from yourself...loosing values and hearing only the things you want to hear. If you have a group of people sharing these biased values well...your next steps are doomed.

Self awareness. Family values. Respect.

I lost some of those values some time ago. Itīs not a peaceful journey. And you hurt people you love.

Selfishness. It starts there.

Time heals. Life goes on. We need to know, respect and love ourselves so as to be able to love others.


WW H(me): 52
W: 48
T: 27 M: 22
S: 17
Piecing since 03/2016
Saw the light in the storm
kiro #2885237 02/12/20 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kiro
Wayfarer, I'm so sorry... I didn't mean to add more pain to you or anyone else. And by no mean am I trying to justify what a WAS does. I was just trying to put myself in the WAS shoes to understand how they think and why they act the way they do.


No need to apologize. There was no added pain. The soul crushing part is my H is sleeping w/ another woman while under my roof, and is in a rush to move out and start his new life. Just seeing it all written out from the beginning is a little jarring. And I'm not to the end of my story yet, so still a little hopeful I'm a lucky one that has a different ending.


Originally Posted by kiro
But I still think the LBS has take some responsibility for how they feel. I am not saying that the LBS did anything wrong. They definitely shouldn't blame themself for what happened, but the LBS needs to take responsibility for their own life, their behavior, and their feelings... Often, as it was in my case, I allowed myself to become too dependent on my W and had lost a big part of my individuality. I should have realized that MR comes with a risk. It's common knowledge that 50% of MRs end in D. I felt that we were safe, that these statistics didn't apply to us. I took what we had for granted.

All it takes for a MR to fail is for 1 person to decide that they want something different. .


We both lost our individuality. And I saw it happening, but I was severely depressed and dealing with grief and I couldn't stop it. And he isn't emotionally in tune enough to know the difference between losing yourself in a relationship and just losing yourself. And he did what he had always done before me, fill the holes with a woman. I never thought I owned him, but I thought I was special. I thought I was enough. And I couldn't have been more wrong. He can't not talk to me so I know I was special, but I was never going to be enough. Because he isn't even enough for himself.

Originally Posted by kiro
But let me be clear.. Regardless of I wrote in my imaginary scenarios above, the WAS is the main culprit here not the LBS. The WAS allowed themself to do something wrong and then they went too far and couldn't control it anymore. Then the damage is done... Once it's done, all the stories show that it cannot go back as it was. It's just the way that humans are built unfortunately.


As a person still standing, if there is a reconciliation ever, I'd never want it to go back to the way it was. I don't ever want to lose myself like that again. And I can't be in a relationship where my partner is falling apart but won't talk to me about it, even if my mental health seemed like the bigger issue at the time. I think it's why the ones who make it to the other side call it MR 2.0, and say it's deeper and stronger. It's impossible to keep moving forward and ignore the damage. You have to do a total tear down and start over with better and stronger material or you'll just be destroyed again. I think that's true of the individuals too.

wayfarer #2885248 02/12/20 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by wayfarer
And he did what he had always done before me, fill the holes with a woman. I never thought I owned him, but I thought I was special. I thought I was enough. And I couldn't have been more wrong. He can't not talk to me so I know I was special, but I was never going to be enough. Because he isn't even enough for himself.

You are special, but you don't need him for that. You are special whether he sees it or not.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
As a person still standing, if there is a reconciliation ever, I'd never want it to go back to the way it was. I don't ever want to lose myself like that again. And I can't be in a relationship where my partner is falling apart but won't talk to me about it, even if my mental health seemed like the bigger issue at the time. I think it's why the ones who make it to the other side call it MR 2.0, and say it's deeper and stronger. It's impossible to keep moving forward and ignore the damage. You have to do a total tear down and start over with better and stronger material or you'll just be destroyed again. I think that's true of the individuals too.

Yes I believe this is very true. But standing is difficult and long. It's been 3 years for me. We even have final D now. Although my ExW is the one who asked for D, she always left the door slightly open. She always said things like:

"I am not ready for reconciliation yet"
"I need to separate for some time, but maybe things will change in the future..."
Etc.

A big part of her message was that she needed time to work on herself and rebuild herself and that a MR2.0 is a possibility in the future if I was still available when she will be ready. Obviously, the message wasn't always that straightforward and direct. There were a lot of mixed signals, contradicting behaviors, confusion and so on...

But because it's such a long time, my life, my feelings and my priorities have changed. Since the damage is done anyway and that any possible R will not be like it used to be, I don't know if I'd be interested anymore. I am not sure what's in it for me?

Her decision has had a huge impact on the way my kids and I live our lives. Many of my friendships and social life have changed. My relationship with my kids has changed (to the better). My kids childhood and adolescence has been impacted considerably. And almost everything else was impacted too: finances, home, work, vacations, hobbies, etc.

So it wouldn't be about saving my family, my marriage, my kids or even my life. We are way passed this phase now...

So even if she were to come back and want MR2.0, why would I embark on such a complicated adventure?

Anyway, this is all hypothetical for me. I am actually seeing someone else now although it's still not a relationship yet. But at some point, I need to decide whether I want to commit to this other person or not.


Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14
BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017
Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
neffer #2885257 02/12/20 07:23 PM
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kiro Offline OP
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Originally Posted by neffer
Selfishness. Thatīs one of the main ingredients into MLC. From there you start with lacking empathy and resentment.
Itīs a whole different view of yourself from yourself...loosing values and hearing only the things you want to hear. If you have a group of people sharing these biased values well...your next steps are doomed.

Self awareness. Family values. Respect.

I lost some of those values some time ago. Itīs not a peaceful journey. And you hurt people you love.

Selfishness. It starts there.

Time heals. Life goes on. We need to know, respect and love ourselves so as to be able to love others.

Thanks Neffer

I totally agree. All these traits you describe were (are) very obvious in my ExW's behavior: Selfishness, losing values, lack of empathy, hurting others, etc.

I'm also happy you mentioned being around the wrong group of people. This factor is often ignored although it plays a big part. I'd add to it the influence of media, social media, books...

And yes time heals and life goes on, but our actions will live on forever. If we hurt someone, we should seek forgiveness and do our best to fix what we did (if we can). Time is not enough


Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14
BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017
Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
kiro #2885314 02/12/20 10:52 PM
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Sometimes I feel that the people on this DB site are my family. I can read any post and I can almost instantly connect and relate to that person. I donít meet many people in the real world who can understand me as well as everyone here.

Thank you all for sharing your stories and for supporting each other. ❤️


Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14
BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017
Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
kiro #2885340 02/13/20 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by kiro
This is the most complex human behavior topic I have ever witnessed. Although I have moved on with my life, sometimes I can't stop my mind from thinking about it again.

I think what is missing in my sitch and in many others I guess is closure. I don't know if this exercise served anything in particular.

I agree. It still amazes me to think that everything pretty much happens internally in our heads (for both the WAS and the LBS). Sometimes outside forces do play a role, but mostly itís in your brain...a split second thought, a half-way-there feeling, bundled with chemical changes or just pure fate, to produce some kind of action that will change everything.

I hope you find the closure youíre looking for. What if you can never find closure? Do you think itís required to move on 100%? I donít think thereís an answer for everything. And maybe sometimes one has to accept the absence of closure to find closure. I donít even know if that makes sense, ha!

Originally Posted by kiro
I should have realized that MR comes with a risk. It's common knowledge that 50% of MRs end in D. I felt that we were safe, that these statistics didn't apply to us. I took what we had for granted.

This is how I felt too immediately after BD. I took things for granted. I thought we were safe. Although I also wasnít happy but I didnít sense the danger. M or any kind of relationship really takes hard work. It is easy to fall into this complacency and just think that you can cruise through life.

Originally Posted by kiro
So even if she were to come back and want MR2.0, why would I embark on such a complicated adventure?

I totally understand how you feel. I think about this too. Is it easier or harder to be with someone whom youíve already been through so much with together? Should we choose base on the difficulty? Iíve told my H this too- I love you, but it is so hard to love you. The easy way for me right now would definitely be to end my M. Maybe there is no right or wrong. Whatever happens, most of the time you would have already been put in a position towards a choice before you have to actively pick A or B. Maybe like you, youíre already seeing someone now....when the time comes where your XW wants to recon, you wouldnít even need to consider it because youíre already so invested in this other person.

LH & neffer- I def also agree with the selfishness and the weakness of the WAS. And those are hard to change. I canít imagine for those who have made it to piecing, how those two traits of the WAS affect the piecing process.


BD: Sep 2019
D in progress
wooba #2885363 02/13/20 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by wooba
What if you can never find closure? Do you think itís required to move on 100%? I donít think thereís an answer for everything. And maybe sometimes one has to accept the absence of closure to find closure. I donít even know if that makes sense, ha!

It makes a lot of sense. Iíve actually accepted already that I wonít have answers. I have mostly moved on but there are still many aspects of my life that are in limbo still. Iím still sorta in a transition phase. So many things in my life have changed over the past 2 years. Iím still readjusting...

Originally Posted by wooba
I totally understand how you feel. I think about this too. Is it easier or harder to be with someone whom youíve already been through so much with together? Should we choose base on the difficulty?

My sitch is in a different phase than yours. We started D process 18 months ago and D was final about 6 months ago. Until D, I was ready to wait and put the work required. But itís different now. I met this very nice person that I like and she seems to like me as much. Do I put my life on hold and wait indefinitely for a woman who is not my wife anymore and shows no sign of remorse or any sign of wanting R? It wouldnít make any sense in my sitch.

Originally Posted by wooba
LH & neffer- I def also agree with the selfishness and the weakness of the WAS. And those are hard to change. I canít imagine for those who have made it to piecing, how those two traits of the WAS affect the piecing process.

My ExW has always shown signs of selfishness even before we had any major problems, although the selfishness before BD was mild. I lived and dealt with it throughout our MR


Me:49 XW:41, M:18 years, Kids: S18,S14
BD:JULY 2017, W moved out: DEC 2017
Filed for D: APR 2019, D Final: JULY 2019
wooba #2885368 02/13/20 02:54 AM
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Wooba, I was the WWS in my sitch...what helped me getting back on course? This site and the people here. They saved my life.


WW H(me): 52
W: 48
T: 27 M: 22
S: 17
Piecing since 03/2016
Saw the light in the storm
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