And here is a summary of my situation. In Spring 18 I discovered H in a short lived but very intense EA. We spent the summer in MC - I forced him into it - and he continued to have contact with EA woman, lie about it, and refused to talk about his responsibilities or what we wanted for his / our future. He was going through significant work stress at the time, behaving like a nasty bully and it felt like someone had kidnapped him and replaced him with a monster. Things got worse and worse, his behaviour more and more emotionally and verbally abusive, until he moved out at my instigation in Jan 19. We spent a couple of months trying to 'connect' and do family time but he was still being fairly consistently verbally abusive so I went dark (we have two kids so I couldn't really do NC) in the late spring. A couple of months later, he had a minor turnaround and recommitted to the relationship, got into IC and a couple of months after that, he came home. He says he has been completely transparent about the EA and has no contact with her now. He had made some apologies but still gets angry if I am upset about the past or the way he has treated me.
Things have improved in several key areas: his verbal and emotional abuse of me has decreased to almost nothing, and when he does start on me I stick up for myself swiftly and strongly and he usually responds to that by stopping. I have lots more GAL and support than I ever did. He's more generous and connected with our Eldest (they don't get on and difficulties in parenting styles was a massive part of our breakdown) though that's still in progress. He's transparent about his comings and goings and is generally where he says he's going to be, though I don't keep tabs on him. He has no friends, social life or hobbies and probably drinks too much. Things are cool between us - he complains and whines a lot, I struggle to validate his two-year long pity party. He's given up IC and hasn't really sought meaningful help about his depression / stress / anxiety. I'm in IC and have been for nearly three years.
Where am I today? Well - my head is a bit crazy if I am honest.
I feel on edge and on guard the whole time. Waiting for H to be mean or cold or distant or rude or disappointing in some way. Afraid this is my life from now on. I can leave him and hurt the kids, or stay here and slowly suffocate due to lack of love and affection. I feel extremely angry at him. Hurt. Abandoned. It feels cruel for him to say he wants to come home and be a family again then basically act like we're cordial roommates. I've had some very good work news and I can't really take pleasure in it. I told H and he didn't respond except to say he had no idea whether I wanted him to be pleased for me or not and no idea how he should be reacting. He's the same if I come to him with negative feelings or events that I'd like help and support with. He says very clearly he wants our marriage to be close and supportive. He doesn't seem to know how I should or can support him (he prefers time alone) and clearly has no idea how to connect with me. I have communicated clearly. 'I am feeling a little blue today and what would help is if you could hold me and tell me you love me,' - his response is to either change the subject, say he won't be controlled, or say he can't do it now I've told him to do it because it's just playing a part. I leave him alone most of the time. I have good friends who care for me instead. I am so frustrated. There's no natural human response there - he's just trying to work out whatever it is he needs to say (to what? make me happy? he knows I am not happy and I've been clear about what I need) and provide that. I feel like I am a task or a duty. I don't feel loved or wanted. Today I am very sad and panicky feeling. My marriage has been so difficult for so long and I am not sure that throwing in the towel is going to make me substantially happier: if I want closeness and connection then opting to live alone and go NC isn't the route towards that.
I am tired. I am going to bury myself in work today.
I have not been following your sitch, just read you last post.
Definitely frustrating when two people speak different love languages and your partner does not know how to meet your needs. As a man, I can relate to your husband. As a long time DBer, I can relate you you. I know my lady wants what you are asking from your husband. It is not natural for me, but I do it because I know it is what she needs. How do you get your H to understand this? I believe it goes back to doing things that are counter-intuitive. You point blank told him what you needed. Is this working?
Doesn't sound like it. So what other options do you have? Maybe an example from my life can help you think of new ways.
Lately, my lady is frustrated with my lack of "helping with the dishes". In the morning, I brush off all the snow on her car, start it so it is warm for her. When she has been saying thank you, I say "My pleasure, thank you for taking care of the dishes". I can tell with this new way of responding to her, that she is less frustrated about the dishes thing.
What are the two of you doing for fun together? I have a standing "Date night" (or two) every week. No R talk. We go out and see live music or she sings karaoke.
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I feel extremely angry at him. Hurt. Abandoned.
Totally understandable. How do you let this go? Are these feelings helping you get closer? I have to work hard at forgiveness all the time. I tell myself, fix me. Change the way I am interacting. goggle radical forgiveness. Very good thought process.
I memorized this quote a while back: "Change the way you interact, forces a change in the relationship." Helps me make things better.
What needs of his are you meeting? What needs of his are you not meeting? I am still not a big fan of words, but if needed ,can you reflect his words back to him. " I did this, not because I wanted to, but because I understand your needs ...."
I fall back on "the art of seduction" and do things that are not natural for me, but they work, so I do them. More natural for me now.
I wish you well.
HUGS
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Thank you for that generous and kind reply, ReadytoChange.
Do you mind if I ask you a few questions? My aim here is not to criticise you at all, but just get a better understanding. I wonder if there's a different way of understanding my H's behaviour that I am missing and you - if you were willing - might help me to find it. I will answer your questions and perhaps ask a couple of my own?
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
How do you get your H to understand this? I believe it goes back to doing things that are counter-intuitive. You point blank told him what you needed.
I did. So I don't think this is not that my H does not understand. He's not a stupid man and we have had frank conversations where I feel that he has computed the meaning of what I am saying.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Lately, my lady is frustrated with my lack of "helping with the dishes". In the morning, I brush off all the snow on her car, start it so it is warm for her. When she has been saying thank you, I say "My pleasure, thank you for taking care of the dishes". I can tell with this new way of responding to her, that she is less frustrated about the dishes thing.
This sounds like a familiar dynamic. If I might ask a question? If what would matter to her is having help with the dishes, why not do that? They're your dishes too, right? Why insist on Not Doing Them and turn a thank you into a passive aggressive reminder that you're also doing your share in other ways? Why not leave her to do the car herself, as she might care about that less, and speak to her in her language rather than insist she learn to receive love in the way you feel like giving it?
I am a physical touch and words of affirmation woman. We have done the 5LL quiz together. My H is acts of service. I make him packed lunches, make him coffees, make sure he always has ironed shirts in his wardrobes and I do his laundry and put it away without him ever having to wonder where it is or how it got back into his drawers. He knows my love languages. I'd rather he looked me in the eyes, touched my hair and said something sweet to me than he scrape the windscreen on my car. But he insists on scraping the windscreen (then complains about doing it - possibly because he doesn't find me grateful enough) because that's what makes sense to him.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
What are the two of you doing for fun together? I have a standing "Date night" (or two) every week. No R talk. We go out and see live music or she sings karaoke.
This is really an area we could improve on. We're going out together this Friday night - first time in several weeks - since before Christmas, anyway. I hope if we leave R talk and parenting talk to one side we still have something left to talk about.
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I feel extremely angry at him. Hurt. Abandoned.
Totally understandable. How do you let this go? Are these feelings helping you get closer? I have to work hard at forgiveness all the time. I tell myself, fix me. Change the way I am interacting. goggle radical forgiveness. Very good thought process.
I memorized this quote a while back: "Change the way you interact, forces a change in the relationship." Helps me make things better.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
What needs of his are you meeting? What needs of his are you not meeting?
He tells me very often he needs more time than he gets alone. We both tend to work during the day, though he has some evening and weekend work and I don't. In the morning we rise together, breakfast, take care of the kids. I take Youngest kid to school and go to work. We both arrive home roughly at the same time (I collect Youngest from after school care). We take turns in cooking. Both kids clean up after dinner - that's their chore and they're good about doing it. H will put Youngest to bed while I supervise Eldest in homework or spend some time with him. That takes us to about 8-9pm. H prefers to spend the next few hours wearing headphones, watching television and eating. I go and have GAL or read or craft in another room. He gets ratty if I disturb him. His only request is for quiet and time alone and time to pursue his interests. I am clearly not meeting that need, but short of throwing him back out to his flat I am not sure how I could do more.
He's also expressed a wish for mornings and evenings (when the kids are around) to be quieter and more organised. I generally do most of the household administrative type work and school pick ups and drop offs. He makes breakfast. There's very little shouting or arguing - sometimes Youngest has to be told a time or two to get her stuff together. I have asked specifically about what he wants from me in this area and he hasn't been able to clarify. I think he finds being around his family stressful and he'd like me to fix that for him in some way.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
I am still not a big fan of words, but if needed ,can you reflect his words back to him. " I did this, not because I wanted to, but because I understand your needs ...."
Yes - that's a good idea and in the past I have tried to to exactly that. It angers him: he says it is a manipulative technique that proves I only do nice things for him because I am trying to 'extract' (his words) some form of love and affection from him. He said this in front of our MC a long time ago and she didn't seem to take him up on it so I am presuming his attitude here is reasonable, though it didn't feel like it to me at the time.
I wonder if there's a different way of understanding my H's behaviour that I am missing and you - if you were willing - might help me to find it.
I believe that is the reason I posted.
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This sounds like a familiar dynamic. If I might ask a question? If what would matter to her is having help with the dishes, why not do that? They're your dishes too, right? Why insist on Not Doing Them and turn a thank you into a passive aggressive reminder that you're also doing your share in other ways? Why not leave her to do the car herself, as she might care about that less, and speak to her in her language rather than insist she learn to receive love in the way you feel like giving it?
As far as the car, she actually wakes me up, asks me to help her. She is small and always cold. I am larger and hardly ever cold. I said thanks in a flirty way. I am a rinse the dishes off and load the dishwasher immediately type guy. When I am cooking, my dishes are always done before I eat. As long as there are no other dishes in the sink or on the counter, I will rinse and put them in the dishwasher. Of course I have put the dirty dishes in with the clean ones in the past because I thought we were loading vs someone didn't unload. Oops. I was told I was looking extremely sexy this weekend when I was vacuuming the house. I don't do it very often, but did it on my own because I had the time and I wanted to get it done my way. I like doing the baseboards and they get skipped a lot with teens.
I believe it comes down to efficiencies and agreements. My buddy never cooks, but always does the dishes. Works for them. ....maybe
Ultimately it comes down to the one with the strongest need to get something done. I think big issues happen when one person is focused on taking care of things and the other is focused on relaxing.
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I am a physical touch and words of affirmation woman. We have done the 5LL quiz together. My H is acts of service. I make him packed lunches, make him coffees, make sure he always has ironed shirts in his wardrobes and I do his laundry and put it away without him ever having to wonder where it is or how it got back into his drawers. He knows my love languages. I'd rather he looked me in the eyes, touched my hair and said something sweet to me than he scrape the windscreen on my car. But he insists on scraping the windscreen (then complains about doing it - possibly because he doesn't find me grateful enough) because that's what makes sense to him.
He definitely needs more training.
W:"How would you feel if I stopped making you lunches and taking care of your laundry?" H:"Bla bla bla" W:"Well that is exactly how I feel when you do not hold me"
another option is boundaries.
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He tells me very often he needs more time than he gets alone.....H prefers to spend the next few hours wearing headphones, watching television and eating.......His only request is for quiet and time alone and time to pursue his interests.
There is a balance. I need my time alone and my lady needs our time together. She wants to share her day with me and I want to get 15 things done and relax. I am sure she wants me to share my day (talk about). The last thing I want to is relive it. I would rather talk about the future and plans.
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It angers him: he says it is a manipulative technique that proves I only do nice things for him because I am trying to 'extract' (his words) some form of love and affection from him
Sounds like you have your hands full.
W"Nope. Just the opposite"
Relationships are hard work. Trying to fill the others love bucket and communicating how we need ours filled. I consumed 2-3 books a week for several years. I had to fight my natural instincts and act outside my comfort zone a lot. I did not make it to piecing with my X. I can't imagine how hard that part of the process is.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
R2C has lots of great advice there. I think too that doing some fun new things together would do your R a power of good. And a lot more frequently! I recently took up playing pool, I am terrible but really enjoy doing it and the kids like beating me. I laugh a lot when we play pool. Even H laughs if we play pool together with the kids, and he has barely laughed since BD. Try something new and something which you can do together, even better if you have to do it as a team (like an escape room or something). You guys desperately need to warm things up and inject some playfulness into your M, otherwise it's just everyday drudgery and chores and childcare and you both feel critical and like your needs aren't being met. Focus on the positives
When we were headed on vacation, I made a point to ask each person what was important to them. I would express what was important to me. We all then had to be accommodating.
I think it is the same in a relationship. Ask a few simple questions. Listen to understand the other person. Express your needs. Listen to see if they understand.
W:"Would you like to spend time with me this weekend?" H:"bla bla bla"
Translate his answer to Yes or no. Respond accordingly: Yes(Keep probing): " What sounds fun to you?" No(have an idea what you want) " " I think I will go to the beach. You are welcome to join me if you change your mind"
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Thanks for these suggestions, friends. I think they have a lot of truth. When I try to look at our situation with the eyes of a calmer outsider, I see two scared and hurt people who lack skills to speak the other's love language, and are generally resentful about that fact. My H has the emotional maturity of a teenager sometimes (but then again so do I) but I do see him trying in his Acts of Service way and feeling resentful and hurt when it doesn't have the response he imagines it should do. As do I. He's actually emailed me the details of several MCs this week - in about three different emails - and I've not responded. That's immature of me.
We did go out last night - just for a meal somewhere local. Eldest at home with friends and Youngest having a sleepover elsewhere. We were both tired and had to make a conscious effort not to only talk about work / the kids / weekly practical planning / money. I guess I've been so used to being DARK for so long that it's actually really counter intuitive for me to engage with him in a more real an intimate way - as I do with my friends.
I think what would help is trying to count the positives, and show gratitude for his Acts of Service. Today I went out with some girlfriends for coffee and while I was out H did some housework and also went out for a walk one on one with Eldest. That's pretty much unheard of but they were both in good spirits when I came back and I think some healing is happening there that I need to leave space for and trust them to deal with it themselves.
A couple of days ago we also had a very positive conversation around some parenting conflict. H was asking Eldest about something, Eldest was being evasive, H was being insistent and I leapt in and tried to shut it down. H wasn't doing anything unreasonable or behaving as he has in the past - with the mean attitude - but I was afraid that was going to happen, felt anxious, and tried to head it off at the pass. A couple of hours later H came to me and asked if we could talk, he outlined how he felt in a respectful way, and asked me not to do it again. He said he needed to find his own feet as a parent and I could really see his point. He was right, so I apologised to him and made sure that Eldest heard me do it. When I think how things were at the start of last year, this is astonishing progress.
I seem to have booked myself in for some GAL pretty much every night this coming week. I need it: I work hard and I am involved closely with my kids and I think I have a touch of seasonal blues: really really tired of it being dark in the mornings and evenings. Have also booked some GAL with H. He will have plenty of evenings on his own this week and I hope we will have one together.
Why haven't you responded about the MC? The rest of it sounds positive, particularly the bit about your H articulating what he needed from you with Eldest. Maybe there's hope for him yet I empathise with the being sick of winter, but spring is inching closer, I found daffodills in my garden today
Why haven't you responded about the MC? The rest of it sounds positive, particularly the bit about your H articulating what he needed from you with Eldest. Maybe there's hope for him yet I empathise with the being sick of winter, but spring is inching closer, I found daffodills in my garden today
I need to think about this, so thank you for asking.
I guess our last experience of it was awful. Two years ago now, and in the immediate aftermath of me discovering his EA. I sat there either silent, or crying, or raging. H generally wanted to outline to me how his infidelity and abusive behaviour was my fault. The MC advised I should leave him alone and see my friends more because he was clearly too angry to engage with me. She never once challenged him on his blame or abusive behaviours (he was verbally abusive to me in front of her) and this seemed to give him the green light - we only went eight times over two / three months - and I did force him to go under the threat of divorce so what did I expect - but many many many times since then he's said that if his behaviours were abusive, the therapist would have called him out on it. He doesn't do that any more, but all in all it wasn't a helpful experience and probably hindered things. Looking back, it was wrong of me to force him into therapy. I should have thrown him out and gone totally dark on him until the EA was over, he'd worked on his anger and come back ready to work on things.
But here we are. I do believe he wants to work on things and doesn't want to behave as he has. He is trying, and he slips back into old habits when tired or stressed or feeling threatened. As do I. I do want to work on things too. And I don't think either of us know how to. And there's so little trust between us - understandably enough. So we'd be prime candidates for MC. I am dragging my heels about it because I can't bear one more session of listen to him whine about how his hard feelings are my fault, or criticise me for approaching things differently to him, or minimise his abuse and emphasise my shortcomings. I just don't want to hear it. And I suspect if we are to get the most of out MC I will need to STFU and listen to more of that tripe before we get to the more constructive parts. And I just really really really don't want to. I've wasted enough of my prime listening to a grown man whining.
Having gone through 2 rounds of unsuccessful MC myself, I share your lack of trust in the process.
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
if we are to get the most of out MC I will need to STFU and listen to more of that tripe before we get to the more constructive parts
I took this same approach in MC. What happened is that I felt like my concerns were minimized and my W's concerns took center stage.
Maybe if you do go to MC, you can share your concerns up front about how MC went before. I certainly don't think "STFU and listen" is a healthy approach for you to take. You will end up frustrated with the process.
