Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 10 11
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,645
Likes: 472
D
DnJ Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,645
Likes: 472
Hello cardinal

I like reading you looking at the rational and irrational pressures in your life. The understanding of your fears. You are doing really good and well on your way.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I'm still finding myself cycling through questions like, How can he view our entire M so negatively? Reliving little bits of BDs from time to time, questioning how this person became this other person who is now my roommate. How weird it still is to not talk about what either of us is thinking or feeling, how quickly he removed what intimacy we did have in favor of acting like acquaintances. Where did all those years go? It feels like we are both pretending they didn't happen.

H isn’t pretending.

Cycling and questioning is common. We tend to project and believe we know what our spouses are thinking. A pretty normal thing considering all of us knew our spouse probably better than anyone else. But they are not themselves now.

We LBS have felt the loss of time. We all have dwelled upon those moments of bomb drop - my goodness for those first months I relived and revisited XW’s speech, replayed those 5 minutes probably a couple of thousand times. While your replaying and reliving a moment in your mind you are there. Its like time travel. We go through depression and get lost in thought and wandering down memory lane. Imagine the MLCer.

MLCers are consumed by their trauma(s). Moment(s) of their lives from long ago; most likely more than a mere 5 minute speech at a dinner table; relived and revisited time and again. Unable to find understanding as the emotions of that “time” push and push.

Our pain and suffering, the loss of time we experience, is from our emotions of BD. How we felt and what it stirs up within us. No one talks about how they thought a the moment of BD. It is how we felt at that time, that grips us.

MLCers’ emotions have an enormous grip and scream out at them. Their journey is emotional, feeling and emotions cranked to 11, and drowning out reason, logic, and rational thought. There are times when the emotions subside for a bit, and they peek out, and then sink back into the mire.

So, where did all those years go for H? They are still there, just inaccessible or locked away for now. H is just at a different time. He is back when whatever emotional stunting trauma happened and hopefully will emotionally grow up from there.

It’s a weird thing to witness. They really are back in time. My XW recalled things from 30 years ago like it was today. In her even younger personality, she lost her abilities to perform math except and the most basic level of around a seven year old. As I said, so weird. This is a mental illness driven by hidden emotional trauma that all one can really do is be compassionate, understanding, and find forgiveness. And those you discover are really for your wellbeing.

We focus on ourselves. First and foremost for our health and wellness, and to find detachment and indifference so we can learn how to treat our MLCer kindly and not unduly pressure them. These are broken hurt lost souls. The best thing you can do for yourself and them is to keep moving forward. It’s up to them to figure out what to do if/when they see your beacon.

Sorry, I did get a tad over-encouraging there. It takes a certain amount of understanding to rationalize and let go - of fear, of H, of R, of one’s need to fix. I see your questions are leading you so very well; I may have got carried away. smile

Originally Posted by cardinal
To have such big question marks in both my work and personal life right now is, as you can tell, a challenge for me. Ha. Understatement. The old me would have been in a constant state of anxiety, but I feel like moving through heightened bursts of it like this is a slight improvement. I am preparing as best I can for what is unknown. I don't need to get ahead of myself. I'm scrambling to solve problems on the route, before I've even reached the problem! Apparently I have a fear of lack of preparation, too?

See. Look at the improvement. Old you vs new and improved you.

The unknown - that possible future event.

The unknown - let the future unfold in its time.

The unknown - embrace it. Do a 180. Look forward to whatever the future is bringing.

You’re right, no need to solve problems en route.

And by the way, we all have 84 problems.

DnJ


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 180
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 180
Hi Cardinal!

Just stopped by to say hi and that you’re not alone. I too am sorting through finances while H seems to be getting more aggressive again about moving the D process along. I too am struggling at times to not let fear kick in...fear of the unknown, fear of the finances (which H took care of as well) and just general fear of my lack of knowledge with what to act upon next ....sometimes even when I know there’s nothing immediate that needs doing.
Love that you’re baking ....mmmmm cinnamon rolls. You’ve inspired me too to try and make these now. Hope you have a wonderful YOU day tomorrow and that you get those gorgeous flowers.
I’ve decided to take a mini trip with my sister...looking forward to relaxing, being away from H on my terms for once, and just mentally shutting down for a few days.
Take care!

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 10
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 10
Originally Posted by cardinal
I don't need to get ahead of myself. I'm scrambling to solve problems on the route, before I've even reached the problem! Apparently I have a fear of lack of preparation, too?

This is me!! Totally. I'm working on letting some of that go too, trying to focus on where I am today and the problems I'm facing now, not the ones that may or may not happen at some point in the future. That can drive you bananas.

Researching always helps me, as does making lists and breaking things down into more manageable chunks-- wondering if one of those strategies could help? For instance, I bet recording your current expenses, while not fun, will be a huge help as you move forward. Maybe researching car insurance can help too-- getting more information on any of these unknowns is taking action and something within your control. Anyway, it seems like you're really doing all the right things, even as you have all those completely normal fears/anxieties of what may come next, especially around things that are not within your control.

Hang in there-- thinking of you! I looked up the cinnamon roll recipe-- looks fabulous. King Arthur Flour is actually where I bought my sourdough starter from (they mail it to you) and I LOVE it. They send a super easy recipe along with. Definitely recommend it for you if you're interested!

Also, I did read Station Eleven... soooo scary. I'm re-reading Spillover by David Quammen and just bought Crisis in the Red Zone, Richard Preston's new book about the more recent Ebola epidemic. I have failed at meditating this week but every day is a new opportunity, right? smile Another book I'm reading that you might like about meditating is Joy on Demand.

Anyway, hoping you have a great day and weekend. Know that there are all of us here for you. (((HUGS)))


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 549
Likes: 4
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 549
Likes: 4
Happy Valentine's Day, everyone! I hope you have found some way to treat yourself today and in the coming days. I cobbled together stems from several places to make a beautiful bouquet (I wish I could arrange some for you, too, Kindly!), and—may, wooba, wayfarer, HesAble—I bought pillow shams H would probably hate. wink I'm working on polishing off that chocolate cake I made last weekend.

Ah, DnJ, the first question that popped into my head after reading your thoughtful response: Well, what if H isn't going through an MLC? I don't know his true mind and heart, even though as you say, it's natural to project to some extent once you've known someone so closely for so long. But then I suppose this applies either way:

Originally Posted by DnJ
Their journey is emotional, feeling and emotions cranked to 11, and drowning out reason, logic, and rational thought. There are times when the emotions subside for a bit, and they peek out, and then sink back into the mire.


Isn't that the WAS in general? I also have a bit of trouble imagining H caught in a swirl of feelings and emotions—he's always seemed to operate rationally, by a sometimes cold logic. But then... I think, well, part of the issue is that he's been suppressing emotions for so long. So why not? And it seems totally possible that the WAS could think they are making decisions based on simple logic, but they are actually driven so much by emotion, or by the need to run from feelings or by an inability to fully or partially acknowledge or understand them. Rather than sit with uncomfortable or often contradicting thoughts and feelings, it seems easier to switch back to a kind of black and white logic, which also act as justifications for their exits. (Hmm... maybe this is the opposite of what I've been trying to do, which is to use rational thinking to better understand and examine my thoughts and feelings, rather than to avoid them or ignore them.)

Another part of my journey is noticing that my brain automatically seems to pick the scenario that is least optimistic or generous to me, which is I think a weird way that my brain thinks it's protecting me.

I've experienced more anxiety this week, and then I woke up today surprised to feel that calm resolve again—that, no matter what happens, H and I aren't done. Sometimes I try to create that feeling, try to reason myself into why it might be possible, but when I experience it like this, it's different. I'm not sure how to describe it. It's not something I reasoned or hoped. It's just there, as if separate from me.

Originally Posted by DnJ
The unknown - embrace it. Do a 180. Look forward to whatever the future is bringing.
This goes against the way I am wired! Worry about Look forward to whatever the future is bringing. Which just means it's going to be a challenging 180, but not impossible.


T: 16 M:10
BD 6/2019
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 586
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 586
Originally Posted by cardinal
Happy Valentine's Day, everyone! I hope you have found some way to treat yourself today and in the coming days. I cobbled together stems from several places to make a beautiful bouquet (I wish I could arrange some for you, too, Kindly!), and—may, wooba, wayfarer, HesAble—I bought pillow shams H would probably hate. wink I'm working on polishing off that chocolate cake I made last weekend.

Haha!! Nice. My valentine’s treat for myself is to dye my hair. My H is probably going to hate it too. I’m still trying to get used to the new hair myself though! Ha!

Originally Posted by cardinal
I think, well, part of the issue is that he's been suppressing emotions for so long. So why not? And it seems totally possible that the WAS could think they are making decisions based on simple logic, but they are actually driven so much by emotion, or by the need to run from feelings or by an inability to fully or partially acknowledge or understand them..

I feel a bit of this with my H also. I think there was a lot of emotion from childhood trauma that he thought he had processed enough. But maybe because of MLC or whatever reason that things surfaced and he wasn’t confronting them head on. So now he is an emotional mess driven by what he thinks of as his logical thinking. Sounds scary doesn’t it?


BD: Sep 2019
D in progress
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,645
Likes: 472
D
DnJ Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,645
Likes: 472
Good Morning cardinal

Ooh, chocolate cake! I’ll be right over. smile

Originally Posted by cardinal
Sometimes I try to create that feeling, try to reason myself into why it might be possible, but when I experience it like this, it's different. I'm not sure how to describe it. It's not something I reasoned or hoped. It's just there, as if separate from me.

That is a belief.

A value, a conviction. It is a force that exists both within and outside of your control. It is both conscious and subconscious, intellectual and irrational, logical and emotional. It just is.

We are so much more than we can rationalize. More than we think we are. More than we feel we are. That is your spiritual “car”. The summation of all you think, feel, and do - intellectual, emotional, physical.

It’s exciting to see one’s values and beliefs as they are. Not many people see what drives them. And yes, our beliefs and values influence everything. We can influence them, alter and strengthen our beliefs, which changes our lives in incredible ways. As you said, it is beyond reason and beyond hope.

That influence begins with focus on you. The physical and intellectual pursuits slowly reaching towards understanding and lead emotional acceptance. The compassionate empathic path intertwine with understanding and acceptance, fearlessness, forgiveness, one’s very core or soul can be reached.

I do agree with your assessment of what if H isn’t going through MLC and is just a WAS. They are similar aren’t they. It’s hard to know the underlying factors and pressures of one’s spouse. With MLC, I believe there is more confusion and a feeling of being out of control, crazy, the absolute drive and uncontrollable need to get away, to run. The LBS’s response is the same regardless.

I do see how it would be difficult to see H is emotionally driven. Guys are more logical and reasoned and sadly do not show their feelings much - to others or themselves. So when MLC hits and emotional trauma refuses to be silent, oh my. Your observation of H maybe running from his emotions is actually MLC in a nutshell.

An MLCer cannot face their pain and trauma, and project it, and blame it away. Thinking they are embracing their intellect and reason. It is the lie they tell themselves. Their intellect and reason is driven from emotions. My XW knew she made the correct well thought out and calculated decision to abandon her children because it felt right. She felt better with “her” logical reasoned action. Truth, is in the eye of the beholder. She ran from her pain and torment, thinks (feels) it’s right and better because she no longer hurts. That’s her truth. It will crumble like the sand it is built upon, and she will either start to face it or run again. Oh, confusion reigns in their lives, and they cannot see it.

Originally Posted by cardinal
(Hmm... maybe this is the opposite of what I've been trying to do, which is to use rational thinking to better understand and examine my thoughts and feelings, rather than to avoid them or ignore them.)

Exactly.

We do not run. We face the pain and follow the sting. Use rational thought to explore and examine. Our goal is acceptance not to ignore.

Originally Posted by cardinal
Another part of my journey is noticing that my brain automatically seems to pick the scenario that is least optimistic or generous to me, which is I think a weird way that my brain thinks it's protecting me.

Why?

You are a smart gal, and are seeking and finding understanding very quickly. So what is your brain doing and why?

It’s weirdly automatic. Kind of just happens, like it’s separate from you - right? Beliefs.

Preparing for the worse - is that the same as least optimistic - prepares you for failure, disappointment, and so on. It’s an expectation. People do seem to usually unconsciously pick the pessimistic scenario. That predisposed one to that very end. Our minds are listening and will make our imagined outcome a reality.

Change that deep held conviction, the expecting the least generous. Prepare for the optimistic outcome. Change how you see the world and the world changes with you.

You can influence your belief system. And are, every day, every moment, we reinforce our values and beliefs. It happens mostly unrealized; our beliefs unknowingly influence our behaviour which of course goes along with that value, which in turn feeds back and strengthens that belief. It takes an effort to see that process and alter a conviction. However, once altered it is self-reinforcing. That’s the power of a belief.

Beliefs are slow to change, unlike thoughts and feeling which do flit away. It’s some of the most important inner work - finding one’s beliefs and altering those you aren’t happy with. Do the work, become the best person you will be.

Originally Posted by cardinal

Originally Posted by DnJ
The unknown - embrace it. Do a 180. Look forward to whatever the future is bringing.

This goes against the way I am wired! Worry about Look forward to whatever the future is bringing. Which just means it's going to be a challenging 180, but not impossible.

Against the way I’m wired. - At the moment, yes it is. smile

It’s not impossible.

Almost anything is possible.

What are you going to believe?

DnJ


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 549
Likes: 4
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 549
Likes: 4
Yesterday morning—the calm before the storm, I think, because now I'm feeling tossed around by, well, feelings. Bear with me while I try to get my bearings! My dinner with a friend last night somehow left me in worse shape. It’s not like she told me anything new about H—in a lot of ways it was like every other dinner we’ve had, where she says she’s surprised as I am he hasn’t filed yet. I know he doesn’t have heart-to-heart talks with her, but she does ask him what’s up from time to time, and he always has some new reason why he didn’t get to filing this week. She sees the positive changes in him too—that he’s not as angry, not drinking to excess (though it seems last night he did, because he's home but his car isn't... did V-Day get to him too? Who knows.). She feels he was probably mad at himself for letting things get to the point in our M where they weren’t “fixable” (his words to me around BD 1 & 2), thus the period of coping with drinking and nights out. He’s still going to counseling.

Nothing revelatory, and I had no expectations of any revelations, so why did I leave the dinner feeling so utterly defeated? I tried to reason through it last night, but I just felt a new level of sad and numb.That gloomy, depressed feeling persists. I guess it has to do with getting a glimpse of him from someone else's perspective, one that happens to reinforce my fears. Okay, so he’s not prioritizing filing ASAP for whatever random reason, but he's planning on it (and maybe taking some other steps I don't even know about), and it seems his attitude that it’s too late for R and we're unfixable hasn’t changed, at least as far as what he reveals to this friend.

None of that is news to me, but my mind reacted as if it was. Is it just having it confirmed again that is hard for me? Do I really expect he would share any deeper thoughts, if he ever had them, with this friend, especially when he knows she is my friend too? No... but it still hurts to see, through her eyes, how different my outlook is from his. It's as if I'm tucked into my own little hopeful bubble, and that hope ends up feeling false and naive when I step outside of it. My bubble is filled with what I know from MWD and what I read here in various threads: WAS by necessity see things as unfixable, any changes in a WAS/MLC scenario happen very slowly, for the most part, and are not always observable. Over and over I read that what is going on in their minds is very different than what we as LBSes or others assume. Change starting not with a declaration of love but a whisper of doubt, etc. As I type all of that out now, it doesn't seem so incredibly naive or false.

Is all this sadness stemming from confronting that I'm not in that place I’m supposed to try to get to, where I’m okay with either outcome, D or no (R or no)? I'm just not. I'm a broken record. I'm still afraid of D. I still haven't let go, though I know that is all I can do. The truth is I want with my whole heart to have H in my life. That desire hasn't gone away no matter how much stronger or more independent I've become. DnJ, I think you would point me to desires and hopes again. That desire doesn't have to go away, but it shouldn't be the sum of my happiness. It's not the sum, but I still don't want to imagine my life without him in it. Our friendship, our relationship was only a part of what made my life joyful and rich, but it was such a big, wonderful part.

It might not seem like I'm replying to the last post, but I know this is all wrapped up together. People keep coming in and out at my job and I have to be cheerful and engage and I don't want to see anyone, so of course it's busy today. I'm having trouble connecting my thoughts! I will have to keep reading and thinking about it.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Change that deep held conviction, the expecting the least generous. Prepare for the optimistic outcome. Change how you see the world and the world changes with you.

I know this is a big change in how I approach events in my life big and small, one that I really need to work on in order to make my life better in general. Reading these words make me cry for some reason. I know it's connected to everything I've been feeling. I'm not sure how to take the first step. It starts with changing my thoughts.

To sum up: I am a mess of feelings today.


T: 16 M:10
BD 6/2019
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 549
Likes: 4
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 549
Likes: 4
Today—still having trouble re-entering the more confident, detached zone I was in. 8 months in and I feel like I’m regressing DB-wise, just can’t get my attitude back in the right place. H has been gone most nights this week for the first time in a while, and I think my anxiety is surfacing so much because I’m sent back to how things were for so long before the new year, all the coldness and uncharacteristic behavior from him. He said little to me this morning, and maybe the thaw of the last six weeks is coming to an end or maybe I’m just fearing that. I don’t like seeing how I’m affected by his moods again—his recent prolonged friendliness has definitely messed with me. It appears he was out on V-Day night with a (girl) friend, and this shouldn’t surprise me because he’s been hanging out with friends who are girls all along, as is his norm. I’m feeling so insecure right now, though. It hurts to imagine him with anyone else, now or in the future. I know this is a basic step—detach, detach, detach, and I’m disappointed that I’m letting these things get to me, but I’m just at a low point, feeling vulnerable and hurt. Feeling like this is about me even though I know logically it isn’t. Had to stop crying when I heard his car pull up. It’s days like this when I see how it could be both easier and harder if he had moved out.


T: 16 M:10
BD 6/2019
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,645
Likes: 472
D
DnJ Offline
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,645
Likes: 472
Hello cardinal

(((Hugs)))

Originally Posted by cardinal
still having trouble re-entering the more confident, detached zone I was in. 8 months in and I feel like I’m regressing DB-wise, just can’t get my attitude back in the right place.

It’s ok. I know how it feels to sink low again. Setbacks are necessary steps forward. During our moving forward we assess, test, and challenge our ideas, thoughts, feelings, and yes those beliefs. For what good are beliefs if they cannot handle a challenge; you want strong beliefs. You will challenge them, even if you don’t see yourself doing it. In that view the term setback seems mislabelled doesn’t it?

This is progress, even though it doesn’t feel like it. Remember counterintuitive.

Something has stirred your emotions. It’s ok. Feel them, let them wash over you.

Originally Posted by cardinal
Is all this sadness stemming from confronting that I'm not in that place I’m supposed to try to get to, where I’m okay with either outcome, D or no (R or no)? I'm just not. I'm a broken record. I'm still afraid of D. I still haven't let go, though I know that is all I can do.

Be gentle on yourself. Letting go is difficult.

cardinal, all you can control is you.

It’s okay to not want a D. You don’t need to be alright with D or no (R or no). You aren’t pushing for a divorce, so you aren’t making that decision. Aren’t in control of that. H is doing that.

Is there much point in fearing something you cannot control? It’s not divorce you fear, that’s just the trigger. Look deeper, what possible future events post D are frightening and paralyzingly you?

Originally Posted by cardinal
The truth is I want with my whole heart to have H in my life. That desire hasn't gone away no matter how much stronger or more independent I've become.

Originally Posted by cardinal
detach, detach, detach

Yes. Detach and find indifference.

Originally Posted by cardinal
DnJ, I think you would point me to desires and hopes again. That desire doesn't have to go away, but it shouldn't be the sum of my happiness. It's not the sum, but I still don't want to imagine my life without him in it. Our friendship, our relationship was only a part of what made my life joyful and rich, but it was such a big, wonderful part.

Of course you desire that relationship. And I’ve no doubt it was a big wonderful part of your life - however it does not define you. Relationships are not what makes one happy.

Desires are like beliefs - they just are. They exist beyond our reasoning.

You don’t need to crush your desires, nor crush your hopes. You can find a place where detachment, indifference, desire, and hope do live together.

For what it’s worth, you are just testing you hopes right now. I did this as well; been there done that. It’s good - you want strong hope.

Originally Posted by cardinal
It might not seem like I'm replying to the last post, but I know this is all wrapped up together.

To me, you are replying to the last post. I didn’t think you would be challenging things quite this soon... yet here you are.

Originally Posted by cardinal

Originally Posted by DnJ
Change that deep held conviction, the expecting the least generous. Prepare for the optimistic outcome. Change how you see the world and the world changes with you.

I know this is a big change in how I approach events in my life big and small, one that I really need to work on in order to make my life better in general. Reading these words make me cry for some reason. I know it's connected to everything I've been feeling. I'm not sure how to take the first step. It starts with changing my thoughts.

The first steps - refocus on you.

You feel broken again, right?

Ripped open? Exposed? Vulnerable? Hurt?

This is where you can make huge inner impacts. It’s hurts. It’s raw. It’s emotional. It’s scary.

It starts with changing your thoughts and making those influences felt right to your core.

When one is so opened up, they gain access to some pretty deep and usually hidden ideas and beliefs. I found some I wasn’t too proud of, actually rather ugly to tell the truth. I discarded those, that unwanted internal baggage. Let the light shine in, push back your fears, and look around.

Be patient, this does take time.

I’ll be here. Walking beside you. Share when you’re ready.

And be gentle on yourself, this part hurts.

DnJ


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 180
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 180
Originally Posted by cardinal
Today—still having trouble re-entering the more confident, detached zone I was in. 8 months in and I feel like I’m regressing DB-wise, just can’t get my attitude back in the right place. H has been gone most nights this week for the first time in a while, and I think my anxiety is surfacing so much because I’m sent back to how things were for so long before the new year, all the coldness and uncharacteristic behavior from him. He said little to me this morning, and maybe the thaw of the last six weeks is coming to an end or maybe I’m just fearing that. I don’t like seeing how I’m affected by his moods again—his recent prolonged friendliness has definitely messed with me.


Hi Cardinal. Just wanted to stop by to say how much I can relate to all of what you are feeling and have posted. As DnJ said it does feel like I am broken again, exposed, vulnerable and mostly hurt. Do you feel that too? And like you, it sometimes feels like it is still attached to Hs’ behaviour or mood. For me sometimes it still comes out of nowhere ....despite GAL I’m finding that there are some areas of over-processing that I am not allowing myself to let go of. One big one I keep replaying is how can this caring caring man be doing this???? I know he’s lost but it’s hard when you see him most days and he appears completely fine. Right?

Originally Posted by cardinal
It’s days like this when I see how it could be both easier and harder if he had moved out.


I often wonder about this too....I don’t know which would be worse for me.

You’ve got people in your corner caring about you...be good to yourself.

Page 4 of 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 10 11

Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard