Learning how to stand, hope, & keep moving

[cardinal]

Yes, I plan to just keep acting the way I have been without skipping a beat. I hope this doesn’t prompt a talk from him. It is bringing up some frustration in me that his attitude post-BD seemed to be that the SSM was solely my problem, as if both of us weren’t responsible for communicating needs/desires and figuring out how to meet them together. But that’s to be expected, right? Everything he brought up was pretty much blaming me for his unhappiness.

Can anyone offer me a little perspective check on these stories I’m telling myself? I’m telling myself he doesn’t seem depressed right now like he has for the last several months. My inclination is to doubt the last 16 years and the love I felt from him (I know I didn’t imagine it! Yet...) His friendliness toward me lately has nothing to do with his desire for D, which, based on his reaction to my move, is unchanged. He feels nothing toward me. My inclination is to read his lack of interest as a reason to give up hoping he could feel and understand things differently in the future, but feelings change. But my biggest takeaway from this should be that I am brave and more confident and capable of change. Maybe he will see that at some point too, but it is important that I see it.

[DnJ]

Good Morning cardinal

Good for you overcoming fear and going for it.

Remember this whole things is more about him than you. That includes his response. The underlining ever present “feeling” for a crisis person is depression. A depressed person has difficultly with lots of activities, sex included.

We strive to do more of what works and less of what doesn’t.

This attempt was unsuccessful. It may have success later, but no time soon. Leave it be for now. H knows, and might just initiate round two himself. What would you do? Of course he may not either; got to watch those expectations.

Overall you sound like you handled it really well. Casual and reasonably pressure free. It was what you wanted to do.

Don’t dwell on his response too much. Treat this as you would if had said no, to you asked him to go to the store with you. MLCers don’t see the world and interactions the same as you.

DnJ

[DnJ]

Can anyone offer me a little perspective check on these stories I’m telling myself? I’m telling myself he doesn’t seem depressed right now like he has for the last several months. My inclination is to doubt the last 16 years and the love I felt from him (I know I didn’t imagine it! Yet...)

First those stories aren’t stories.

I know how it feels as we tell ourselves these explanations to this behaviour that is so out of character for our once loving spouse. You know. You can see his behaviour. You are also finding a handle on your emotions. Beliefs are being crafted, slowly.

We all need a certain amount of understanding, both intellectual and emotional, to let go, to accept. To let go of self doubt, fear, worry; and embrace confidence, strength, compassion. To find our way to our light.

The path is not easy, it’s dark, with many twists and turn, pit falls, set backs, pain, sorrow; and yet there is joy, happiness, and peaceful times. The further you journey the less and less of the dark remains and the light shines through. Honest.

To doubt your past, the last 16 years, is a common hurdle of the LBS. You know what you lived. You have letter, gifts, pictures, memories of better times. It was real.

An MLCer rewrites their history. They have to. They are driven to such extreme measures, justifications are made, history is changed and believed. They absolutely believe their new view on life. And they will expend enormous energies to maintain they fantasy reality. Anyone and anything that gets in their way or threatens their version, is mowed down.

The LBS, being scared and stunned and still wondering what the ... happened, is programmed to believe their spouse; that loving person of many many years. We take what they spew right into ourselves. We unwittingly believe it. It takes effort and time to transmute that poison and excise those demons of doubt.

Do not rewrite your own history! An LBs at first lean toward the bad side, having listened to our spouse. Then pushes hard towards the good side, usually making things better than they were.

Time and patience yields clarity with our remembered history and a great many other things. It is the wisdom behind such advice as: Dig for patience. You have the gift of time, use it well. Sit quietly and answers will present themselves.

His friendliness toward me lately has nothing to do with his desire for D, which, based on his reaction to my move, is unchanged.

Mind reading.

His friendliness towards you could be based upon many things. He doesn’t even know why. So you cannot be expected to know why. He is confused and emotionally driven. Be patience and focus on you.

He feels nothing toward me.

He appears to feel nothing towards you.

His emotions are cranked to 11. He has to mute and ignore his feelings for you. He can’t handle them. Time and space is very much needed for him. If you do not give it, he will take it. That’s why the advice of no pressure, and lots of time and space.

My inclination is to read his lack of interest as a reason to give up hoping he could feel and understand things differently in the future, but feelings change.

Expectations my dear. Keep them at zero.

His lack of interest a reason to give up your hope? No one gets to take away your hope!

Hope is powerful. It also needs to be focused. Or more specifically not focused upon. You focus on you, and hope for him.

But my biggest takeaway from this should be that I am brave and more confident and capable of change. Maybe he will see that at some point too, but it is important that I see it.

It is most important that you see your growth. Live it. Live in the light. Everyone around you, including H, will see it too. Remember all this growth is for you. That is your focus. Become the best version of you.

Yes, you have shown you are brave and more confident. Those are big takeaways. There are much bigger ones still to come. Have faith and walk your path.

Everyone needs a certain amount of understanding to move forward. I’m glad to see you are looking for it and moving forward at the same time.

Well done.

DnJ

[Kindly]

Hi Cardinal, thx for checking in on me...very sweet of you. I’ve caught up on your sitch and it still amazes me the similarities. I don’t know how much I can help except to offer that I went through the same thing with my MIL before Christmas. 2months in she sent me an email saying that they are upset to hear the “news” and that they hope I’ll be ok and take care of myself”. WTF? I struggled with what to do and decided to pick up the phone and call. How do you just let your “second” family be snuffed out like that...and we are/were super close. Anyway, the convo did not go well...I very lightly did try to explain that something felt off and that H wasn’t himself. I was met with “well these things happen”. And “do you have a lawyer”.!!!! I think it was either DnJ or Job who pointed out the obvious that blood is thicker than water and there could be many other thoughts going through MIL head too including in my case denial that there is anything wrong with her S.

I internalized a lot of what H said during BD and sometimes still have trouble understanding what I need to accept responsibility for in our R and what I can let go. The nature of BD—I had a lot of criticism coming at me at once, including the hurt and anger of his question: how had I not known he was so unhappy? Why would I change only now? It's that pull into his negative view of our history. I still need that outside validation from time to time to feel like I'm not going crazy—I couldn't have known because he didn't tell me. Of course I would want that validation from MIL.

I too struggle greatly with this. At times such clarity but then (like right now) such doubt and how could I let things fall apart so badly. I too wanted validation from outside people (his family included) especially because he continues to work and function successfully and “seems” completely normal to an outside person. He’s masked hurt and disappointment for so long he’s become a master at it. In my case there was no validation from MIL just lots of denial and pretty much “oh well you’ll find happiness” it felt very flip and obviously still hurts.

Add to that, that people don’t know what to say. Lots want to fix things. Not see you in such pain. Find a quick solution for you. Of course that isn’t helpful and comes across misunderstood by the one suffering. Empathy is different than sympathy.

I think this is probably true. She wants to encourage me to move on, to accept D, because she doesn't want me to hurt. And she knows it's pointless to try to change H's mind. If she says something to this effect in our conversation, how to respond? MIL, I will hurt either way; I am not planning to put my life on hold, but I have faith that H and I could have a stronger relationship in the future.

DnJ is very right. They really don’t know what to say and they definitely don’t understand the situation like we do...and anyone that is in your circle of caring definitely does not like seeing you in pain. I like your response should your scenario play out like that. To further add...right before Christmas I was to meet with SIL alone...I looked forward to this to shed some more light as to what was going on ... in a caring I don’t know what to do way. Well things changed and MIL came along. It def derailed how much I disclosed and I decided to just tell MY truth with respect to how I planned on handling the situation. I left out any details of how he was behaving etc because truthfully they are going to believe what they want anyway. I decided the only important thing for his family to hear was that I believe in my vows, that he’s burnt himself out and that I’m choosing to stand by him by giving him the space he has requested but live my life as best I can right now. The SIL knows there is more to the story and MIL is still in denial.

I know you also mentioned about getting upset but that’s part of your truth too...it is upsetting. I know we spend so much time not letting H see us upset and I tried SO hard to not get upset during that Xmas meeting, but It happened and I’m ok with that.

Do you plan on leaving the ball in MIL court to reach back out to initiate a get together or phone call?

((Hugs))

[Kindly]

P.s. DnJ ....I will copy and paste your last response and re-read for myself. I feel very close to the same and a lot of your advice applies. Thank you.

[may22]

Well, may and wooba, I did try to initiate and got turned down. H was home tonight and it was comfortable between us, so I decided to go for it. He seemed a little weirded out by my move and said sorry. I said “That’s okay—I’m not going to doubt myself anymore.” He came by my room a few minutes later and apologized again and said he doesn’t want me to feel weird. “It’s okay, I don’t,” I said.

We’ll see how I feel about this tomorrow, but I’m proud of myself for being brave tonight. I was feeling a bit sad earlier tonight thinking I had the chance to be intimate with him before and now maybe I’ll never get that chance again. I’m glad I didn’t let fear stop me from trying. The only thing I’m worried about at the moment is it disrupting the openness he’s shown me the past few weeks or prompting him to file sooner. Oh well! I’m not sure if I should address it further and assure him he shouldn’t feel weird or that I didn’t have any expectations of R, but I was very casual about it tonight. Hopefully he kind of gets that.

Hi Cardinal,

Proud of you for being brave too, and for not being weird about it. It's all good. I like DnJ's response too-- treat it like you invited him to go to the store with you and he said no. You get to take away from this that you're brave, you're confident, you can own your sexuality and desire and it isn't in response to him or to get a response for him-- it is for you. Nice job.

[cardinal]

DnJ, wooba, may, Kindly! Thank you all for this much-needed support and for cheering me on in a way. This was such a huge step for me, and your visits here have indeed helped me keep my focus on the step itself, and me, rather than H's response, which did get me down just a bit and led to me thinking of BD and my doubts again.

I did feel sad for a day... like I missed out on so many chances to be this brave and initiate intimacy with H in the past, but I don't want to get lost in regrets. As you mentioned on wayfarer's thread and on yours, may, you did the best you could with the tools you had at the time. That is true. I also didn't know how much H's insecurities about himself extended to our SSM. I know H is probably still hurt by the why-only-now-when-I-tell-you-I-want-a-D question, but if I would have known H was hurting... Anyway, the point is I am changing and so much more is possible. I don't believe it's ever too late to make changes.

When I shared my attempt with my coach, she was surprised. She was proud. She was moved. You went right into the place of your greatest fear and vulnerability, she said. You did it! I think it really sunk in in that moment how big of a 180 that was for me, and how hard-earned.

I've been thinking about two other takeaways which I hadn't considered:

1. H did not respond by yelling, as if confused, "We're getting a D!" (i.e. What are you doing?!) Which is something he did in the fall when I questioned him about a household decision he made without telling me. The new friendly-H version of this could have been the same question in a normal tone, or a follow-up talk the next day—like, just so you know, my feelings haven't changed; I'm still planning on filing very soon, etc. But he didn't bring it up.

2. Not only am I proud that I took the risk (and yeah, kind of proud that it surprised H, because it should, considering it's such direct, new behavior from me), but I'm proud that I didn't get get cold or angry or cry when H turned me down. I took it in stride. That should also be a surprise to H.

DnJ, thanks for helping me to begin to reset my perspective, which I really needed.

You know what you lived. You have letter, gifts, pictures, memories of better times. It was real.

That validation must seem so simple, and yet I'd forgotten—oh, yes, I do have many letters, for example, which would remind me that H hasn't felt this way forever.

He appears to feel nothing towards you. His emotions are cranked to 11. He has to mute and ignore his feelings for you.

Right. I do believe this. I believe he muted any feelings for me right away... I guess it's more accurate to say, sometimes I worry he will be able to do that forever. Or I will be muted for so long these feelings will cease to exist. But as I type that, I also recognize it as a fear and not a belief.

Time and patience yields clarity with our remembered history and a great many other things. It is the wisdom behind such advice as: Dig for patience. You have the gift of time, use it well. Sit quietly and answers will present themselves.

Back to my uneasy relationship with time again... why do I fear time?

I had a dream again last night in which I confront H and try to shake him out of this. It was full of wonderful dream imagery and logic: his face was not his face but a drawing of his face. After finally yelling at him about how all of this was affecting me (truth bombs, Kindly!), I ripped away the paper and nothing was behind it. He had no head, no face, no... brain, I guess, either, right? In my dream I regretted screaming. I knew expressing my anger in that way wasn't helpful, and I couldn't take it back. Digging deep for patience and allowing time to unfold has saved me from that kind of response (not counting the emotional immediate response to BD!), and time has allowed me to grow in many ways.

[cardinal]

Hello, hello. A few stray Thursday observations:

So far, still no big change for the worse in H's behavior. He's texted me a couple of times with questions, I've waited a bit, answered briefly, and then when he replied again, resisted sending any more conversational/jokey replies back, which is normally what I would do. My mantra in those times when I want to reply is, "This is counterintuitive."

My coach said I am self-protecting quite a bit. Not a surprise to me, as it's clear I've been struggling with this! I said things like when H moves out, when H files. She encouraged me to try to stay in if mode rather than when. (Kind of like hope vs. expectation, I see.)

I'm trying to decide what I'd like to do for myself on Valentine's Day. We never made a big deal out of the day, but H was always way more romantic than I was. I will miss his little gestures next week. No good movies playing! A dark theater and popcorn sounds kind of good though, so I might cave and see something anyway. I did buy a vase I've been eyeing for flowers.

[DnJ]

Good Morning cardinal

I agree with your coach, and am proud of you as well. Facing fears head on. Well done.

I believe he muted any feelings for me right away... I guess it's more accurate to say, sometimes I worry he will be able to do that forever. Or I will be muted for so long these feelings will cease to exist. But as I type that, I also recognize it as a fear and not a belief.

H didn’t mute his feelings right away. A person enters their crisis with a triggering event, which awakens long ago, unrealized, and unknown trauma(s). The now surfacing unyielding emotions of these past experiences will torment the MLCer, while remaining unrealized and unknown to the suffer. It is such a state of confusion (my XW actual thought she was going crazy).

The trigger happens about 18-24 months before BD. During that time the person’s crisis builds and builds. They try to ignore, rationalize, and compartmentalize to no avail. They start to blame others, still blind to the true cause boiling and hidden deep within themselves. The LBS gets the brunt of this irrational blast. The MLCer cannot handle what’s going on in themselves, so they have to project and blame someone else. Remember someone in a position of authority caused such a trauma to them in their young years, and they cannot face it. Deep inside they internalized and blamed themselves, and need to grow from that.

Your H started muting his feelings for you long before BD. And not knowingly.

It is normal to worry about how long the MLCer will remain running and those feelings remain buried under all that justification. Is he able to do it forever? It’s not so much his abilities or how long he can do it - for a good portion he is driven to this extreme and is beyond can or can’t, will or wont. The length of his crisis is not in his conscious control.

You wisely see the normal fear response to this.

But as I type that, I also recognize it as a fear and not a belief.

Fear can be a belief. Fear can become a belief.

If one reinforces their fear enough it will be believed.

Nice to see you separating and rationalizing the two.


I liked your dream.

It was full of wonderful dream imagery and logic: his face was not his face but a drawing of his face.

Imagery and logic.

Working on understanding and finding compassionate indifference.

The MLCer, they are a mask, a facade, of an empty hollow shell. Look beyond his paper like outer projected strength, for underneath is a lost and scared little boy simultaneously lashing out and cowering.

I'm trying to decide what I'd like to do for myself on Valentine's Day. We never made a big deal out of the day, but H was always way more romantic than I was. I will miss his little gestures next week. No good movies playing! A dark theater and popcorn sounds kind of good though, so I might cave and see something anyway. I did buy a vase I've been eyeing for flowers.

Go see a movie.

Maybe if H asks, or if you want, invite him along. If he says no, no big deal, you still go.

If vs when. Hope vs expectation.

One’s mind is always listening, how and what we say has incremental impacts which accumulate and yield big results.

When you go to the movie you will have a good time.

If H comes along, good. If he doesn’t, that’s good too.

You are doing very well.

DnJ

[cardinal]

Hi, DnJ, and Happy Saturday to you and everyone else here in DB land!

Yes, to be able to look beyond what H is projecting. To remember that I don't know what he's going through right now and to find compassion there alongside the indifference I am trying to cultivate. It was easier for me to keep this in mind when he was outwardly acting like a person in crisis (midlife or no)—the drinking, the partying, so clearly running and grasping at anything that would give him a break from himself. Even now, though, when he seems to have stabilized somewhat (again, outwardly, so I realize I am only observing the very tip of this iceberg), I notice little things he's stopped doing that used to bring him such simple joy and pure delight. These are things no one else would probably notice about him.

Fear can be a belief. Fear can become a belief.

If one reinforces their fear enough it will be believed.

Those persistent doubts hit again one night this week—what if H really never loved me, what if he was pretending to, pretending to be a different person for the entire M as he seemed to suggest once. I also did some spinning this morning: seeing some piece of mail H got that is most likely junk mail had me jumping to conclusions and then thinking about all the things he might be doing re: D that I don't know about, all the things he's thinking that he doesn't tell me, why has he not brought it up, and on and on... In both instances, I was able to eventually say to myself: Wait. These are all fears that I have. They are not necessarily rational. Just because they elicit strong feelings in me doesn't make them true. They are just things I am afraid of. They are only beliefs if I give them that power. I might have to sit with them for a bit before I can see them for what they are, and it may be uncomfortable, but I don't have to base my actions on them.

My Valentine's Day movie plans turned into dinner-with-a-friend-after-work plans, so I probably won't even see H that night. It is always good to meet with this friend, because she sees for herself how H has rewritten the past, and it is comforting to have that reinforcement from time to time from someone close that it was not all a dream! Still thinking about what kind of special dessert I will make for myself this week. Flowers are definitely in my future.