Learning how to stand, hope, & keep moving

[cardinal]

Thread #1: 6 Months of MLC. Quick recap: H BD in June 2019, started DBing a couple weeks after that. M 10 years, T 16. Still roommates. No apparent OW, but who knows.

Taking stock: It's been a month of friendlier, slightly more mature H. I haven't seen the full-on alien/teenage H lately—the guy who kept himself so busy at bars, concerts, etc. night after night, barely sleeping, but I know he might be back. I can only imagine whether H is beginning to look inward in his IC sessions. I know he is still spending most of his time with his new friends over old ones; he is in the rosy, uncomplicated stage of friendship with them, and they only know him as he presents himself now.

I left off my last thread wondering what it would be like to initiate some kind of intimacy with him while realizing that seems anti-DB. I'm feeling more in touch with the woman I was when we dated, and I've been thinking about the possibility as both a big step for me—after a SSM, I'm feeling more confident in myself, more in touch with desire, and I feel more than ever that we could have a different kind of R as far as that is concerned. The good thing about this post-BD time is that it has given me the opportunity to focus on myself and my patterns. I am no longer apt to act immediately on my emotions or to get defensive, and I'm learning about setting boundaries. I feel like I'm an evolved and evolving version of my older self. A small consolation: I have learned a lot about myself and am still learning; I can see how far I've come in making the changes in myself I've wanted to make. I felt stuck before, but not so much anymore.

Detachment, always a work in progress. Maybe my reaching a new level of detachment and acceptance mentally was in part what prompted H's increased communication this month. Maybe it had nothing to do with it.

I know I still have anxiety about why he hasn't filed yet when he said he was going to again in November. I am trying to take DnJ's advice to not solve problems en route, to not gather dread or hope surrounding filing. I tell myself it's just as likely that is a step, if he takes it, that he will need along his journey, that it is a step that might very well be necessary to open up the possibility of future reconciliation, rather than a step that would lessen that possibility.

As I have felt more in touch with the confident woman I used to be, I've had more moments of just believing this will all work out between us in the end—that this is not the end of us, that H will travel his path on his own time, and there will be much groundwork laid for a healthier, open, more fulfilling new marriage. I don't know how to describe it—it doesn't feel like I'm hoping in those moments—it feels like a peaceful knowing.

[cardinal]

Oh, my—I forgot I wanted to throw out a question, too. One of the results of a more open H is that he shared with me the date of his mom's last day of work, which is also her birthday. Should I text her a simple Happy Bday/Happy retirement? I feel it's the kind thing to do. I know she's been looking forward to retiring for a long time. But I don't want to start a convo with her.

I thought I had a good relationship with her, but after BD, she's never really communicated with me about what's going on. She did send a birthday text to me. She also once sent me a text that, to me, suggested she hopes I'm moving on, which really got to me. I expected her to support me in fighting for our M, but it's true that I don't know how she really feels about BD or what H has told her. I've been really hurt by her lack of support.

I think the only reason I'm hesitating to text her is because I'm afraid she'll text something back that I interpret as hurtful again. Should I just toughen up—i.e. if she does, why should I let it affect me?

[may22]

Hey Cardinal,

I think I must have responded to your last post on your last thread while you were setting up this one-- just wanted to be sure you caught it over there at the very end.

As I have felt more in touch with the confident woman I used to be, I've had more moments of just believing this will all work out between us in the end—that this is not the end of us, that H will travel his path on his own time, and there will be much groundwork laid for a healthier, open, more fulfilling new marriage. I don't know how to describe it—it doesn't feel like I'm hoping in those moments—it feels like a peaceful knowing.

I kind of feel like this too. But I'm trying to equally focus on being OK with that NOT happening and moving on without him. It is hard to hold both in your head.

I think the only reason I'm hesitating to text her is because I'm afraid she'll text something back that I interpret as hurtful again. Should I just toughen up—i.e. if she does, why should I let it affect me?

Go ahead and text her. If you feel it is the right thing to do, do it. It is kind and thoughtful. Don't worry about what she does or doesn't respond. What is the worst that can happen? She says something like she did last time? OK, so what? Maybe she hopes you're moving on because she cares about you and is embarrassed her son is being such a d*ck, and doesn't want you to be hurt by him. I'm sure she's generally hoping that the collateral damage of his craziness is as limited as possible. Maybe she has guilt-by-proxy since she raised him and now look what he's doing. In the end, it doesn't matter. She's his mom and will always be 100% on his side, whether or not she also is capable of showing you love and support as well. If she is, great-- you're really lucky. if she isn't, oh well-- you're still the bigger person for reaching out and being kind.

[wooba]

I think the only reason I'm hesitating to text her is because I'm afraid she'll text something back that I interpret as hurtful again. Should I just toughen up—i.e. if she does, why should I let it affect me?

Place kindness above fear. If you want to show kindness to her, don’t let your fear of her response stop you. Plus it’s easy to stop a conversation with texts lol!!! Also want to point that it’s a common theme- you want to explore your sexuality but you’re afraid of H’s response. You want to text MIL but you’re afraid of her response. Maybe this will be a good practice to conquer your fears. What’s the worst thing that can happen? If she tells you to move on again, you can say “thank you, I will think about it.”

[cardinal]

Thanks for the encouragement, may and wooba! My H and his mom have a sort of complicated relationship, which I've realized mirrors a lot of the way H has treated me—he's always wanted to make her happy, and he worries about upsetting her, and they don't talk about how they actually feel or about much of anything of depth. Anyway, there are some issues there, so that I worry any time I contact her now it could complicate things between them or between H and me. But you're right, wooba, it's also an example of me needing to do what feels right to me and not letting fear stop me.

Also, MIL divorced when H was young. According to H, when he told her about BD/his desire for D right after, her response was something like, "If you're like me, when you make up your mind, you make up your mind." Remembering that still hurts a lot. I'm sure I don't know how she really feels about the situation; maybe her feelings are more complicated than she made them seem, but it made me think she rewrote everything she knew about my and H's relationship as well. I still think of her attitude as, "Oh, it didn't work out--too bad! I wish you the best!"

So I did text her, and she responded that it's been a crazy year for both of us (not sure what that means for in terms of her) but that she loves me and always will. She says we should chat soon.

I don't think she really has any idea of how H has treated me the last several months, that he's barely communicated, or that his behavior/drinking has been worrisome. She doesn't live here. I can't imagine actually chatting with her. Maybe if she had reached out to me after BD I would feel different. Right now, I would just feel the need to fight against her outside view of things or convince her things could be different, etc.

[DnJ]

Good Morning cardinal

his mom's last day of work, which is also her birthday. Should I text her a simple Happy Bday/Happy retirement?

Yes you should contact her. And I’m glad to read you did.

I thought I had a good relationship with her, but after BD, she's never really communicated with me about what's going on. She did send a birthday text to me. She also once sent me a text that, to me, suggested she hopes I'm moving on, which really got to me. I expected her to support me in fighting for our M, but it's true that I don't know how she really feels about BD or what H has told her. I've been really hurt by her lack of support.

People have fears; MIL, FIL, parents, kids, friends, work acquaintances, the list goes on and on.

Add to that, that people don’t know what to say. Lots want to fix things. Not see you in such pain. Find a quick solution for you. Of course that isn’t helpful and comes across misunderstood by the one suffering. Empathy is different than sympathy.

And the one suffering is emotional and busy crafting all manner of irrational coupling of their feelings and fears to various events, people, and situations. Things get mixed up.

I think the only reason I'm hesitating to text her is because I'm afraid she'll text something back that I interpret as hurtful again.

Good for you seeing a reason - “I’m afraid”.

MIL texted you a couple of times. One of which you took to be a suggestion to move on. It interesting what we read into things. This brief and assumed suggestion took hold in you. MIL’s mindset must be against me - kind of thinking. Fear and hurt based reactions - perfectly normal.

Expectations then went unmet which turn to resentment which further feeds your now growing belief about MIL and your own self doubts. All validated because you feel really hurt by her lack of support.

Rationalization. See it. Uncouple the fear.

You are correct, you don’t know how MIL feels, what she thinks about this or you, nor what H has told her. Something else to consider, she is older. Maybe even wiser. Three more decades of experience would probably have her survive a few more of life’s knocks. She might just realize the futility in trying to change her son’s mind.

My parents didn’t fight for my marriage. None of my family did. What kind of fighting would one expect from them anyhow?

This is me now, at the time I was quite hurt and crushed and felt much like you do.

Should I just toughen up—i.e. if she does, why should I let it affect me?

Toughen up - that’s not quite it.

See thing more like growth. Toughen up, especially in matters of emotions, hardens the heart. I kept mine soft and squishy. I wanted to love again, living again, to be able to forgive. So to me that heading and goal needed less toughness and more compassion. Funny thing is soft and squishy is stronger and can take so much more. Hard and ridged will shatter.

...why should I let it affect me?

It does affect you. It doesn’t control you.

That goes for everything.

You affect you. You control you.

It’s a hard lesson to learn. To first understand, then to feel it, and then to actual place it in you belief system.

It’s true that events, people’s comments, actions, behaviours, etc... do affect us. We have rational responses, the intellectual side. And irrational responses, happy, sad, mad, glad, hurt, elated, excited, etc... After the initial emotion(s) has flitted away, it is us who continue to reinforce it.

BD for example is horrible. So much going wrong. Hurtful events and statement. So much to process. Too much to process. Eventually the initial “reason” for our feelings subsides and it is us that is causing our pain. Quite normal by the way, and actually needed to be honest. We grow from this emotional highjacking and gain much control over our lives.

No one has direct control over you. You control, and can only control, your actions, reactions, and thoughts; which can influence emotions and beliefs.

Mastery of “control of self” breaks those irrational chains that shackle one to their fears and pain.

So I did text her, and she responded that it's been a crazy year for both of us (not sure what that means for in terms of her) but that she loves me and always will. She says we should chat soon.

Good for you.

Her response of its been a crazy year for both of us, and that you don’t know what that means in terms of her. You’ve been deep in your own situation, while the rest of the world has been spinning along. She is retiring! That’s a big thing. Formally ending one’s life work - that a big transition. And there is most likely much more.

She also has not hear from you. Says you should chat. You should. And phone not text.

I don't think she really has any idea of how H has treated me the last several months, that he's barely communicated, or that his behavior/drinking has been worrisome. She doesn't live here. I can't imagine actually chatting with her. Maybe if she had reached out to me after BD I would feel different. Right now, I would just feel the need to fight against her outside view of things or convince her things could be different, etc.

Breathe. Calm. Relax.

You are jumping ahead.

Yes, maybe if she reached out after BD you’d feel different. Don’t make decisions based solely on feelings.

I understand and empathize with your very normal need to fight her outside view of things to convince her things could be different. I was there. Got a whole drawer of t-shirts from that particular ride.

In truth we are convincing ourselves. We are looking for validation. We are trying to assuage our self doubts. Gathering our allies and pushing away our enemies. Setting things up for a fight, and fighting does seem to be the default. You can do different. You can do better.

You don’t need to change her views. You can’t anyhow. Remember what and who you can only control. Live and demonstrate your values. Let your light influence others. They control themselves and that is how they change. Fighting is just fighting.

I would call MIL and congratulate her. Have no expectations of the phone call. Let it take you where it will. Be prepared for a few scenarios of course, but don’t expect them. Just prepared to say I’m feeling very overwhelmed with all this and will have to continue another time. If it even came to that. Point is you don’t know.

Fear tangle us, paralyzes us, and we end up looking down paths of futures that most of which never happen. Let go of fear.

Well I fear I’ve rambled on long enough. (giggle - fear, lol)

Have a wonderful day.

DnJ

[wooba]

DnJ, I always love reading your responses. I’m glad I stopped here by today.

[cardinal]

DnJ, as always, your words are so helpful and necessarily thought-provoking—it helps me step outside of my emotions and examine them more intellectually. That is a gift. That is going to take me many posts. Ha.

In truth we are convincing ourselves. We are looking for validation. We are trying to assuage our self doubts.

Yes. Last night, I was trying to pull my fear apart more to see what it's made of. MIL was someone I felt close to and trusted, someone whose opinion I valued and value, just as I did H's. Imagining talking to her after all this time stirs up lots of feelings that I need to process. One of the big ingredients of my MIL-fear is self-doubt; I am afraid talking with MIL would cause me to doubt my own experience.

I internalized a lot of what H said during BD and sometimes still have trouble understanding what I need to accept responsibility for in our R and what I can let go. The nature of BD—I had a lot of criticism coming at me at once, including the hurt and anger of his question: how had I not known he was so unhappy? Why would I change only now? It's that pull into his negative view of our history. I still need that outside validation from time to time to feel like I'm not going crazy—I couldn't have known because he didn't tell me. Of course I would want that validation from MIL.

Add to that, that people don’t know what to say. Lots want to fix things. Not see you in such pain. Find a quick solution for you. Of course that isn’t helpful and comes across misunderstood by the one suffering. Empathy is different than sympathy.

I think this is probably true. She wants to encourage me to move on, to accept D, because she doesn't want me to hurt. And she knows it's pointless to try to change H's mind. If she says something to this effect in our conversation, how to respond? MIL, I will hurt either way; I am not planning to put my life on hold, but I have faith that H and I could have a stronger relationship in the future.

You don’t need to change her views. You can’t anyhow. Remember what and who you can only control. Live and demonstrate your values.

Is that response trying to change her mind? Is it stating my personal values? Is it me thinking that in order to live them I have to state them to her?

What if she thinks I knew H was so unhappy for years and did nothing about it? This is how H presents it to other people. I would feel the need to say: You know H, you know how he says nothing bothers him, he's the happiest person in the world, etc. what he projects—I truly did not know he was deeply unhappy, or that D was ever in his mind. I wish we could have communicated our feelings better to each other.

What if she asks where we are in D timeline, or knows more than I do, because maybe H has mentioned some specific progress on filing that he hasn't shared with me? Me: I don't really know. H has not brought it up since November.

Would I feel the need to mention that in the last six months, he's barely spoken to me? That I've been worried about his drinking, staying out nights, that H is not himself? All that feels like convincing. All that has to do with how he lives his values, not how I live mine. It stems from my need to fend off self-doubt again: see, this is bigger than our relationship—it is about him feeling lost too. It is about dealing with that whisper that hasn't completely gone away: This is all about you, he just can't love you. That is maybe at the irrational center of all of this. I am fighting myself, not MIL.

Well, those are the most present what-ifs, scenarios I would want to feel prepared for.

In the end, even her asking a simple question like, "How are you?".... That scenario. Just hearing her voice will make the situation felt in a new way. I can imagine everything flooding out. I can imagine crying and not being able to continue, worrying she will tell H. I'm probably tipping toward expectation and fear here.

I thought of her as my second mom. But she is H's mom. I don't feel that I can be so open and honest about my feelings with her. And, since I am still living with H, my talking to her feels like a bit of a betrayal. I really don't think he shares his feelings or specifics of our day-to-day situation with her.

Breathe. Calm. Relax.

Phew. Yes. Lots of feelings stirred up just thinking about the possibility of a conversation. What happened to examining them intellectually? I've strayed into them again rather than outside of them, I think!

[cardinal]

Well, may and wooba, I did try to initiate and got turned down. H was home tonight and it was comfortable between us, so I decided to go for it. He seemed a little weirded out by my move and said sorry. I said “That’s okay—I’m not going to doubt myself anymore.” He came by my room a few minutes later and apologized again and said he doesn’t want me to feel weird. “It’s okay, I don’t,” I said.

We’ll see how I feel about this tomorrow, but I’m proud of myself for being brave tonight. I was feeling a bit sad earlier tonight thinking I had the chance to be intimate with him before and now maybe I’ll never get that chance again. I’m glad I didn’t let fear stop me from trying. The only thing I’m worried about at the moment is it disrupting the openness he’s shown me the past few weeks or prompting him to file sooner. Oh well! I’m not sure if I should address it further and assure him he shouldn’t feel weird or that I didn’t have any expectations of R, but I was very casual about it tonight. Hopefully he kind of gets that.

[wooba]

Kudos on making the move! No need to address it more. Your head seems to be in the right place, so as long as you’re acting normal there is no need for further explanation.

The opposite actually happened with me and my H today. He initiated and I was hesitant...so I wrapped myself up in my big winter robe lol.