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Part 1: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2855155&page=1
Part 2: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2877693&page=1

Hi everyone. Just coming back to do some journaling - seems I come back every month or so!

I've had a really, really interesting month since my last post. Obviously, the holidays were very difficult, my first one by myself and with us separated. I am grateful to be able to lean on my family as not everyone has that luxury, but it was a tough sled for sure, as was New Years. But it is what it is.

Professionally, my life is going extremely well. I am not sure if I mentioned it in my last post, but I left my old job in November of last year. A lot of my friends thought I was nuts because it was my dream job on paper: C-level job for the dominant player in my preferred industry, but I wasn't happy. It was too political, too slow, too bureaucractic..and my heart wasn't in it, certainly not since my separation. When WAW wasn't working and focusing on her art, I was happy to deal with it and support our family, but now that we're apart and she's back to work, it was that much harder for me to get up in the morning.

Anyway, I wanted to go back to early-stage tech and my entrepreneurial background, so I did. And last week I closed a very large seed investment from a dream venture capital partner. It came together very quickly and it's honestly a bit scary - particularly because I don't have the support network I once had. But I'm also extremely excited, not just because of the opportunity but because it also feels like I'm getting back (at least work-wise) my true self.

For some background on what I mean by that, when I first met WAW, I was in the early stage of starting my first company. I don't come from money by any means so starting out my first time was incredibly risky and a massive disruption to the trajectory of my career - but I didn't care. I was driven, I had a vision for what I wanted, and I went after it. Four years later I sold the company to the firm I just left, and WAW was there for the entire ride. As cheesy as it might sound, I do still view the success of that company as a story of us and not just a story of me, and in the pursuit of being the best version of myself I can be (and AMOAFWL), I'm excited to get back at it.

As far as she and I go, more of the same, really. We're still extremely cordial, and there are fairly frequent signs that she is still thinking of me: she'll send me links that I'd like, that sort of thing. We meet every few weeks to discuss logistics and finances, but that really only takes a few minutes - the rest of the time we just catch up. I mostly just listen and focus on validating the things that are bothering her, as she's very stressed between her job and the multiple volunteer/political things she does. It's nice; we make each other laugh very easily, and when we sit down and work on a problem together (such as her campaign website), we make a pretty formidable team. I'm still very physically attracted to her; I suspect I always will be.

Against the advice of the chorus on here, I did end up sending her a Christmas card with a letter inside. I was sort of surprised that she didn't mention it at all until I found out yesterday when we met that she never read it. She and her father do not speak at all (nor was he at our wedding), and I believe three years ago, he sent her a Christmas card and a letter as well, one that was very manipulative/guilt-inducing that put her in a bad place. She said that when she saw my card with my letter, she immediately put the two in the same bucket, and decided not to read it. I'm definitely not her father - he was extremely emotionally and verbally abusive to her - and obviously I resent the connection, but I understand the emotion behind it and ultimately, I get where she's coming from. I'm sure the same people who thought it was a bad idea will think it's actually a gift in disguise, so I guess we'll see.

One thing my therapist pointed out that I haven't really considered is that she's actually had several rather obvious opportunities to cut the cord between us, and she hasn't done it. When she got her new job for example, she put her paycheck into our joint account just like I did, even though she started a few months after we separated. She never mentions divorce, never mentions any romantic interests (not that she has time for them), and as I said above, exhibits some signs of still thinking of me. Better than nothing, I guess.

As far as how I'm doing emotionally, some days are good, some days are bad. I'd love to say that I was over it, that I wasn't still heartbroken, but there's no point in lying to you. Today was actually pretty rough; immediately after the news about Kobe Bryant, I was on the subway heading to my office when the train was stopped for an hour due to a death on the track ahead of us. Both events reminded me so much of how fragile life is and how quickly things can change. I have so many regrets for taking the MR for granted and for times I wish I would have made it clear how much she meant to me. I can't change anything, but it hurts to be without your life partner, particularly on sad days like today.

Generally the plan stays the same: get well. Keep staying fit, commit to eating healthy, keep honestly working on the areas in which I caused conflict in the MR, and use this time to my advantage to be the best version of myself I can be. It's so tough to hear her talk about how hard the holidays were for her, or how stressed she is, because all I want to do is be there for her and support her, but I can't. I still love her, and I want so much for the opportunity just to start over at square one. Maybe one day. For today, I'll focus on the things I can control.


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Steve,

glad to hear the update. I think you are doing great in regards to your DB'ing and personal efforts. Your attitude seems very positive, keep that PMA.

I see a lot of positives for you and your sitch.

I don't think the letter was a great idea, but it doesn't seem like a horrible one either.

I'm glad you checked back in.


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Originally Posted by SteveS

Against the advice of the chorus on here, I did end up sending her a Christmas card with a letter inside. I was sort of surprised that she didn't mention it at all until I found out yesterday when we met that she never read it. She and her father do not speak at all (nor was he at our wedding), and I believe three years ago, he sent her a Christmas card and a letter as well, one that was very manipulative/guilt-inducing that put her in a bad place. She said that when she saw my card with my letter, she immediately put the two in the same bucket, and decided not to read it. I'm definitely not her father - he was extremely emotionally and verbally abusive to her - and obviously I resent the connection, but I understand the emotion behind it and ultimately, I get where she's coming from. I'm sure the same people who thought it was a bad idea will think it's actually a gift in disguise, so I guess we'll see.



How does it make you feel knowing she didn't read it?


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Originally Posted by Steve85
Originally Posted by SteveS

Against the advice of the chorus on here, I did end up sending her a Christmas card with a letter inside. I was sort of surprised that she didn't mention it at all until I found out yesterday when we met that she never read it. She and her father do not speak at all (nor was he at our wedding), and I believe three years ago, he sent her a Christmas card and a letter as well, one that was very manipulative/guilt-inducing that put her in a bad place. She said that when she saw my card with my letter, she immediately put the two in the same bucket, and decided not to read it. I'm definitely not her father - he was extremely emotionally and verbally abusive to her - and obviously I resent the connection, but I understand the emotion behind it and ultimately, I get where she's coming from. I'm sure the same people who thought it was a bad idea will think it's actually a gift in disguise, so I guess we'll see.



How does it make you feel knowing she didn't read it?


Mixed emotions. I do agree with you guys that sending the letter was an action borne out of fear and out of helplessness of the situation - if only she knew how I felt, she'd have a change of heart! As someone said in the previous thread, there have been so many letters sent by LBH, and no one have them have materially changed anything. And I do sort of agree that putting it out there like that adds pressure at a time when pressure is not needed.

On the other hand, it's also a bit frustrating, because I do believe that she has the wrong impressions about a few things. I do think that this S, as painful as it is, has been a blessing because it opened my eyes up to many things I was taking for granted, and allowed me time to work on things to make myself a better future partner. The letter was less about "Oh baby, I'm so lost without you!" and more about the insights that this separation has given me, my commitment to keep working on them, and my belief the problems between us are workable and the natural connection and joy that we bring each other, evidenced by how we still can make each other laugh so easily, is still so obviously there. I'm not just sitting around feeling bad about myself, and I do want her to know that.


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Originally Posted by SteveS
Originally Posted by Steve85
Originally Posted by SteveS

Against the advice of the chorus on here, I did end up sending her a Christmas card with a letter inside. I was sort of surprised that she didn't mention it at all until I found out yesterday when we met that she never read it. She and her father do not speak at all (nor was he at our wedding), and I believe three years ago, he sent her a Christmas card and a letter as well, one that was very manipulative/guilt-inducing that put her in a bad place. She said that when she saw my card with my letter, she immediately put the two in the same bucket, and decided not to read it. I'm definitely not her father - he was extremely emotionally and verbally abusive to her - and obviously I resent the connection, but I understand the emotion behind it and ultimately, I get where she's coming from. I'm sure the same people who thought it was a bad idea will think it's actually a gift in disguise, so I guess we'll see.



How does it make you feel knowing she didn't read it?


Mixed emotions. I do agree with you guys that sending the letter was an action borne out of fear and out of helplessness of the situation - if only she knew how I felt, she'd have a change of heart! As someone said in the previous thread, there have been so many letters sent by LBH, and no one have them have materially changed anything. And I do sort of agree that putting it out there like that adds pressure at a time when pressure is not needed.

On the other hand, it's also a bit frustrating, because I do believe that she has the wrong impressions about a few things. I do think that this S, as painful as it is, has been a blessing because it opened my eyes up to many things I was taking for granted, and allowed me time to work on things to make myself a better future partner. The letter was less about "Oh baby, I'm so lost without you!" and more about the insights that this separation has given me, my commitment to keep working on them, and my belief the problems between us are workable and the natural connection and joy that we bring each other, evidenced by how we still can make each other laugh so easily, is still so obviously there. I'm not just sitting around feeling bad about myself, and I do want her to know that.



Awesome response. I love your self insight here.

Now, the reason we tell LBSs not to send letters like this is really two-fold:

1st, it shows you are still too attached. A healthily detached LBS doesn't have a need to send a letter like this.

2nd, because it usually backfires. Usually you feel like you just got kicked in the nuts by the reaction. That is why I asked you how you felt. Actually, your circumstances were about the best it could go. If she had read it I am not sure you would have liked her reaction.

Just keep on DBing!


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Well, quicker to update than usual, and I wish I had better news. It's over. Probably.

I'm close with WAW's aunt, who was always extremely supportive of me and in many ways my biggest cheerleader. I saw on Facebook that she was having leg surgery, so I sent her a text wishing her well and a speedy recovery, to which she sends me a note back to call her. So I did. And boom, BD. Indirectly.

Apparently WAW told members of her family - not her mom or any of the adults, so to speak, but her cousins that are her proto-sisters - over Christmas that she was done, and that she had decided that she wasn't coming back. It had gotten back to the Aunt, who was appalled that WAW felt this way and hasn't told me yet.

I was floored. Not that I in my heart of hearts expected a different result, but it's so different than what I see out of her when we do get together. If she's done, why did she want to talk about our joint financial accounts, given my new job situation? Why does she smile when she sees me, why do I make her laugh so easily, why does she send me links? She knows I'm on the side of reconciliation and she knows how much this hurts me - how can she know and just let me go through the hell I'm going through?

While that doesn't make sense, other things do. If that's how she felt, of course she didn't read the letter - it was only going to remind her of the damage she's doing. Of course she's working herself to death and shutting out everyone - she doesn't want to think about it. She doesn't want to deal with it.

And I feel like such a fool. I'm not beating myself up for loving her still, I'm not beating myself up for having been optimistic and having a positive attitude, but it is sinking in that I've also been in denial and that has caused my complete inability to detach.

I know the pros on here say believe none of what she says, and half of what she does, but where does that end? I can't imagine that is something she'd tell members of her family unless she was sure.

So I have no idea what to do now. Or what's next. I guess she'll eventually tell me. Or maybe I should stop giving her opportunities to disrespect me and hurt me and file myself.

Any advice is welcome. This is so painful and it's going to be a long, long night and week.

Last edited by SteveS; 01/29/20 06:04 AM.

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S,

It's ok to have a positive attitude but you have to keep your expectations low. My ex and I had sex until she moved out. It doesn't mean anything. By the time you get here 90% or better of these sitches end in D.

Just because you D doesn't mean it's over. At minimum 50% will regret it. IMO the number one misunderstanding on this board is the timeline. We we say marathon that means 3-5 years not 3-5 months.

Believe it or not you actually decide when it's over.

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FWIW, I'm a woman. I would not necessarily believe this. But armed with the knowledge that it's out there, you have time to craft a detached response like Steve always says; i.e., be indifferent and see where that goes. Agree and act as if you think it's a great idea too. DR always talks about trying something new and assessing response. That would be very new. If it's really true and she hasn't told you yet, that means she thinks you'll freak out. An indifferent response might shock her and get her thinking. Talk is cheap, especially when it's to someone who doesn't have a personal stake in the game.

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LH: from what I read, it's way more than 50%. The issue is both wanting to reconcile at the same time. The Divorce Care curriculum discusses this at length.

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One other thing, Steve. I have endured much the same thing you have except mine has been OVER TWO YEARS. Twice during this time period, mine dangled reconciliation but then took it back. Then he filed for D. There is no AP. In the past couple days I have finally hit my stop loss and am gearing up to walk away. I want more from this life. You'll get there. You sound like quite the catch and NY?? The scale is so skewed in favor of available men there. You'll have a virtual smorgasboard to choose from.

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Hi Steve, I am not a vet here and I separated from W just a year ago, but I can relate to your sitch in many ways, so I would like to offer you the following advice.
You should stop talking to your W’s aunt, as it does not help you detach. I was very close to my mother in law and she has suggested several times that we have a talk but I always refrained from calling her. Nothing good would come out of it.
You wife can be nice to you and still want out of the marriage. It is not incompatible. It just means you are in the friendzone. It can also mean that she feels guilty about leaving you. My W behaves the same way with me, even if we are separated.
I would suggest that you move on and that you behave as if you marriage is dead. Demonstrate strength and self-respect. That does not mean you have to file right away (only when you feel you are fully ready to do so), but at least go indefinite no contact. This is how you will have the best chance to save your marriage.

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And by the time you get the chance to save your marriage, you may not want to if you have really let go and moved on. I've had a revelation the past two days. Nothing the S did, just turned my own thinking around. Now I see what the veterans here are saying. I want more from my life than this I'm a lot older than you and time is short. I am walking away. I'm not telling the H that, it's not a tactic to get him to come back. I'm acknowledging that what he does is entirely in his control and quite honestly, I'm done being jerked around and fed crumbs/Plan B. I want to be someone's Plan A. I look really good for my age and have a really successful professional career, make a lot of money. Additionally, I am changed by this experience and know a lot more about being a good wife. I am also very empathetic and have a nurturing personality. The ultimate "nurse with a purse." LOL. I know finding a good guy over 55 ain't easy but I think I will eventually encounter someone that fits the bill.

Not to mention, I'm completely open to younger ones;) They're great.

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Originally Posted by SteveS
I was floored. Not that I in my heart of hearts expected a different result, but it's so different than what I see out of her when we do get together. If she's done, why did she want to talk about our joint financial accounts, given my new job situation? Why does she smile when she sees me, why do I make her laugh so easily, why does she send me links? She knows I'm on the side of reconciliation and she knows how much this hurts me - how can she know and just let me go through the hell I'm going through?


This is called being Plan B. Don't be upset with yourself for falling for these things, most of us LBSs do. We crave every crumb that she let's fall from her table. And then sit and beg and wait for more.

It is kind of humiliating to look back and to see that I did that. But we just try to hang on so tight. The key is to let go. Be the lighthouse. Let her come to you. And then to have zero expectations. Until you can get there, that is the goal you work towards.

What you find on the other side is that you know you will be okay either way. Once I got there I was actually excited at the possibility for my life that this opened up! So keep your head up and head for that faint light at the end of the tunnel.


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What you find on the other side is that you know you will be okay either way. Once I got there I was actually excited at the possibility for my life that this opened up! So keep your head up and head for that faint light at the end of the tunnel.


Steve, you're right! I just got there. I'm not sure now I even want to stay married.

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Steve,

I am sorry to read this update man. I wish I would have seen this sooner, I imagine last night was a long night.

My first thought is if this is how she really thinks, then do you really want someone like that? Who could leave this easily?

My second thought is: Believe nothing she says and only half of what she does!!!!! There's also a reason she didn't tell the grownups.

My W told lots of people that this was over. She told people more than once. And guess what, and you probably already know this, but the more someone talks about something and feels the need to say it, the less confident they are in their position. My W changed her mind if you didn't know.

You talking about filing yourself is an emotional reaction to all this pain. I definitely get it, but I don't think it's what you want. If it was what your W wanted then she's had well over a month since her declaration to send papers yet here you are!

You control you. Attitude --- thoughts ---- actions --- feelings. You control every step that leads up to you feeling happy. Are you going to wallow in hurt forever or can you turn this around?

In DR, have you read about the Stop Sign Technique? It served me well.

You live up in the big city! We had a member up there who patched things up when I first got here. You have things to do that I don't in suburban STL (Don't get me wrong, it's still way better here). Kidding aside, take advantage of the offerings in your area.

This video helped me a lot:

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Google this: qMNMyLm57VA


I wouldn't change much in what you're doing because your W said this to her family.

PMA brother, PMA! Whatever happens in my life I will get through, do the right thing, and be better for it!!!!!


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Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for your responses and empathy. As you can imagine, last night was very difficult and even trying at all today to be productive is impossible. But I need to feel what I feel, as hard as it is, and not run from it. And it hurts. A lot.

I've been trying to monitor my thoughts, and whenever they start to get into a painful place, like remembering a time when we were happy or feeling hopeless, I immediately try to counter it with this mantra: I'm strong, I'm successful, and I'm resilient. It's been helpful.

There's so many hard parts about this. I never, ever thought it would end like this. We were married, we loved each other - we were supposed to work it out, and never stop fighting to make it work. I don't know what made me think we were different; D was something that happened to other people, because they gave up, and because they didn't have what we had.

Now I'm losing 75% of my family, and I'm losing the life I thought for sure I was going to live. The worst part is, I don't even really know why. All I got from WAW when she decided to S was that she needed space. In the absence of any more information than that, all I can do is beat myself up over things I wish I would have done differently, times I wish we didn't argue, times I regret not being a better partner.

I'm trying to get through the rest of the day by telling myself that it's not over, and that really, nothing has changed. What she told her cousins was probably how she felt all along, and while it hurts that it was said, until I have papers in front of me, it's all just conversation. Some people do change their minds when they're right up against it. Some people go through with it, and realize that it didn't make them happier, that it's not what they wanted. I'd be lying to you and myself if I said that she seems unhappy with her life currently; she enjoys her new job, and despite the workload, she has really found something in local politics that makes her happy. Of course, I wasn't blocking her from any of those things and her finding happiness in those arenas has nothing to do with me. But it is what it is - there's just zero chance she's thinking she was happier focusing on her art and with less direction in her life.

As for me, I'm just trying to make it through the day. I do know that I will love again, I do know I'll be happy again, and yes, I do know that I'm a catch with a lot of attractive qualities. I don't struggle with that. I just don't understand what happened and it's hurts so much that the person I love and want to be with doesn't want to be with me. It just changed so, so quickly.


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Originally Posted by SteveS
All I got from WAW when she decided to S was that she needed space. In the absence of any more information than that, all I can do is beat myself up over things I wish I would have done differently, times I wish we didn't argue, times I regret not being a better partner.

SteveS ~ I think the lack of feedback is a normal experience for many LBS.

I think beating yourself up is too strong. Use the time to work on yourself, including evaluating what you think you contributed to the failure of your MR.

But always keep in mind relationships involve two people. Even if she sent you a list of all your faults, would that really help? If you fixed every one of those faults, would your MR be fixed?

Originally Posted by SteveS
I'm trying to get through the rest of the day by telling myself that it's not over, and that really, nothing has changed. What she told her cousins was probably how she felt all along, and while it hurts that it was said, until I have papers in front of me, it's all just conversation. Some people do change their minds when they're right up against it. Some people go through with it, and realize that it didn't make them happier, that it's not what they wanted.

I'm sorry you are going through this. You got punched in the gut. It is a reminder you are still tethered to her emotions.

When all you get is a request for time and space, and you grant that request, and then you look from afar and she appears content and happy and you have friendly interactions, I understand how that can sustain hope.

On the flip side, this exposes you to feeling gut punches when you find scraps of evidence that counter your hope. You are just a ship in a stormy sea being tossed around by whatever YOU perceive is going on with HER. Scraps of evidence are found - some of them seem pretty cut and dry.

The closer you can get to letting go of expectations, the better you will feel. You WILL be okay regardless of what happens. You are a smart, successful, thoughtful guy, living in one of the greatest cities in the world.

Letting go of those expectations is not easy. I'm not there yet myself.

She told her family something, at some point, possibly it's really how she feels, possibly it was a fleeting emotional thought.... should it change how you approach your day?

Hang in there, buddy. You are in a tough limbo situation, it's not possible for every day to feel like sunshine and rainbows.

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Originally Posted by SteveS
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There's so many hard parts about this. I never, ever thought it would end like this. We were married, we loved each other - we were supposed to work it out, and never stop fighting to make it work. I don't know what made me think we were different; D was something that happened to other people, because they gave up, and because they didn't have what we had.



This is how I thought too. However, the problem is that you only get control over one person in this life. And marriage is between two people. So while you can have this attitude, she gets a huge say. It takes two to make a marriage, only one to get a D.

So focus on what you can control. Hint: It is you! Married. D'd. None of that changes that you get control over you! Life is 10% what happens to us and 90% how we react and our attitude towards it. So let your attitude be that you are awesome, great, phenomenal even, no matter what OTHER people decide. See what I said above. Once you get to the place where you realize that you are going to make your life great, no matter what, then you will be able to move past the hurt and the pain.


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Hi everyone. It's been a long time since I wrote an update so I thought I'd check in. More of a journal than anything else.

In regards to my last post, I can't remember how exactly it happened, but shortly after WAW called me and said that her aunt had heard incorrectly, and that it wasn't how she felt. Now, in my entire life with WAW, I have never known even a single time for her to ever lie to me and while I have absolutely no idea what the real truth is, the fact that she immediately called to set the record straight was meaningful.

As far as the two months since then, well, it's been a lot of the same. This pandemic has been really hard on me in particular - not that I've gotten sick, thank God - but with the quarantine and everything being locked down, it's really hitting me hard now unhappy I am being single and how much I want to reconcile with WAW. We met up twice since my last note, both times were generally positive - the rapport is still there, we make enough laugh, and so on.

I'm in NYC so I've been intentionally staying in and locking it down because it's just so crazy outside. I ventured out for about ten minutes on Saturday, just to get some fresh air, and who did I run into but WAW. She was lugging back groceries, and she saw me from the other side of the street and came over. I immediately offered to help her with the groceries, and she refused. I ended up walking back to her apartment with her, ten minutes, just chatting and catching up. It was nice to see her, as always.

If I want to try and read too much into her actions, to me it's sort of strange that she didn't want me at all to help her with groceries. My therapist believes that so much of our S is about her being unhappy with where she was with her life (not working, focusing on art, dependent on me) and that her mindset right now is all about being totally independent, not needing anyone for anything, and so on. That would generally map with her actions yesterday. I know she's also cooped up alone in her apartment so it was also sort of surprising that she didn't lead on any sort of discomfort or loneliness with the quarantine, which I am definitely feeling a lot of.

This is going to get me a swat from the regulars on here, but I shot her a text yesterday that it was nice to see her, and that I'd love to catch her up on some of the things I've been working on and that maybe we could go for a walk since we're both cooped up. 24 hours later, no response. And as I'm sure you might guess based on my history, the lack of a response threw me off and now I'm back in a negative spiral. I know better, but it's hard to avoid.

Oh, and she actually thinks that she got the virus already - late in January, she said she got really sick with the flu and was just completely exhausted for two weeks. No cough, not much of a fever, but it was severe enough that in retrospect she thinks that she had it. That was tough for me to hear - one, that something could have happened to her and I wouldn't have known, and two, that even in her extremely weak state, she didn't reach out to me at all for help.

I guess more than anything else, I just don't understand. She's had so many opportunities to really create distance, none of which she's taken - our finances are still combined, she's on my insurance, and so on. We have such a good time when we get together, when we work together on things we're a really powerful force - and yet other times she treats me as if I'm some stranger that she doesn't know at all. I would have absolutely put myself in harm's way to help her when she was sick. It wouldn't even be a second thought.

My friends all think I'm crazy. They don't know why I keep putting up with this. The short answer is that I still love her, and that I really do believe with the hindsight of going through this pain and all of the things I've worked on within myself in the interim, that we'd be in such a better place if we reconciled. I also can't lie about the fact that I'm still very physically attracted to her, and that in my nascent looking around, I haven't really met anyone who caught my fancy anywhere near the way she did all that time ago.

So, I guess it's just try to get through this valley, keep working on myself, and just try and try and try to work on and get better at distancing. It's so tough with everything that's going on. But I'm making myself sad and getting stuck in quicksand the way I'm going about it now.


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Yo Steve how did that kick in the nuts feel when she didn’t respond. That $hit is going to make her feel unsafe and uncomfortable around you. No more bro! Big setback!

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Steve,

I don't see anything horrible here. I understand why you wanted to pursue a bit. It usually doesn't work but your sitch is different and you haven't been seeing her or communicating much. It doesn't appear to have worked in your sitch either but I wouldn't say it's a "kick in the nuts" either and I can speak from experience.

When a woman turns down your advance the best thing to do is roll on to the next one like it didn't bother you at all and that is why I say it's no kick in the nuts. Your happiness is set either way, or at least that should be your mindset. I think you have this mindset within you. That said, you love your W and you are making progress as an individual that will help you in your next R, so I understand why you are hanging on for the time being. I think that is the right thing to do and I endured something similar. Nothing of value comes easily. Whether or not the biggest takeaway will be reconciliation with your W or something else we don't know, but you will learn a lot from this experience.

I wish you the best of luck, I've always been drawn to your sitch. BTW, did you get your startup going again? I know a lot of guys licking their chops with the SBA EIDL and PPP funds out there right now. My business hasn't seen much effect yet from this virus.


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Originally Posted by SteveS
24 hours later, no response. And as I'm sure you might guess based on my history, the lack of a response threw me off and now I'm back in a negative spiral. I know better, but it's hard to avoid.

Sure sounds like a kick in the nuts to me. I also would like to point out how her not responding speaks volumes. She could have said “I don’t think it’s a good idea”. I would like to caution newbies on reading this thread that pursuit does not work and usually pushes them further away as seen above.

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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Steve,

I don't see anything horrible here. I understand why you wanted to pursue a bit. It usually doesn't work but your sitch is different and you haven't been seeing her or communicating much. It doesn't appear to have worked in your sitch either but I wouldn't say it's a "kick in the nuts" either and I can speak from experience.

When a woman turns down your advance the best thing to do is roll on to the next one like it didn't bother you at all and that is why I say it's no kick in the nuts. Your happiness is set either way, or at least that should be your mindset. I think you have this mindset within you. That said, you love your W and you are making progress as an individual that will help you in your next R, so I understand why you are hanging on for the time being. I think that is the right thing to do and I endured something similar. Nothing of value comes easily. Whether or not the biggest takeaway will be reconciliation with your W or something else we don't know, but you will learn a lot from this experience.

I wish you the best of luck, I've always been drawn to your sitch. BTW, did you get your startup going again? I know a lot of guys licking their chops with the SBA EIDL and PPP funds out there right now. My business hasn't seen much effect yet from this virus.


I did actually, I ended up raising $4.5mm in VC right before the virus stopped everything. I'm hiring like crazy - super advantageous, given all of the companies that are spinning down talent - and certainly getting the business up and running is taking up a lot of my mindshare.

What's so crazy about all of this is that I know I've got so much to offer, but going through the S has just completely destroyed my self-esteem. The opposites of feeling like my professional life is going so well and that many people think so highly of me in that arena and how bad I feel about my personal life is as stark as it gets.

Last edited by SteveS; 04/06/20 06:47 PM.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by SteveS
24 hours later, no response. And as I'm sure you might guess based on my history, the lack of a response threw me off and now I'm back in a negative spiral. I know better, but it's hard to avoid.

Sure sounds like a kick in the nuts to me. I also would like to point out how her not responding speaks volumes. She could have said “I don’t think it’s a good idea”. I would like to caution newbies on reading this thread that pursuit does not work and usually pushes them further away as seen above.



I mean, it's sort of irrelevant - the point is, I pursued and it wasn't a good look, regardless of whether she immediately responded or not. The hardest part for me (and I would suspect, a lot of people) is understanding that they're just in a different headspace. For as much as I can sit here and say "Man, we're in a pandemic, all I'm doing is thinking about my loved ones, she must be too!", that's a dangerous assumption and acting on it is even worse. Lesson learned.


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[/quote]

I mean, it's sort of irrelevant - the point is, I pursued and it wasn't a good look, regardless of whether she immediately responded or not. The hardest part for me (and I would suspect, a lot of people) is understanding that they're just in a different headspace. For as much as I can sit here and say "Man, we're in a pandemic, all I'm doing is thinking about my loved ones, she must be too!", that's a dangerous assumption and acting on it is even worse. Lesson learned.[/quote]

That is the biggest lesson for in all this. You cannot assign your emotions/thoughts/logic to another person. You cannot even begin to assume what is going on in their head and you will drive yourself nuts trying to figure it out

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Originally Posted by Cest_Moi

That is the biggest lesson for in all this. You cannot assign your emotions/thoughts/logic to another person. You cannot even begin to assume what is going on in their head and you will drive yourself nuts trying to figure it out


Driving myself nuts trying to figure it out is just so, so true. It just doesn't make sense. Even if I throw the cliches of "I was the most important person in her life, now I'm a just a stranger" out the window, pretty much everything else she's done doesn't really add up. She intentionally withholds (like NC on my birthday, or just the other day), but she lights up when she sees me and we laugh and have a great time. She doesn't make any effort to move anything forward, yet she consistently turns down any option of cutting the cord, including literally telling me that it's not how she feels.

I feel like I'm just in a loop here. It's probably how a lot of people here feel. One positive month of focusing on myself and detaching, then a slip up, back to square one.

A lot of people, including my IC, ask me when I'm going to be done, when I'm going to stop putting myself through it. I wish I knew. I still love her, I can't dispute that. And I still think, 100% and absolutely, that the time we spent apart has opened my eyes to a lot of things that would make us better and more harmonious partners in the future. I'm not the man I was six months ago.

And so I just assume there's going to be a day in the future when I wake up and realize it's not what I want anymore. But I'm not there yet. And sometimes I wonder if I'll ever be there. But until that day comes, I'll be standing and working on myself while whatever happens happens.


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Originally Posted by SteveS
My therapist believes that so much of our S is about her being unhappy with where she was with her life (not working, focusing on art, dependent on me) and that her mindset right now is all about being totally independent, not needing anyone for anything, and so on.
Maybe. I hope your IC helps you focus on you. Neither you nor your IC can really know exactly what's going on with her.

Originally Posted by SteveS
She's had so many opportunities to really create distance, none of which she's taken - our finances are still combined, she's on my insurance, and so on.
Common WAS behavior. What benefit would she have by separating finances and getting off your insurance?

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U, good point on the separating of finances and insurance. WAS's throw all the rules and morals out the window after the drop the bomb. Her separating finance and insurance gets in the way of her NYC lifestyle while focusing on art and politics which I imagine are more passions projects than business endeavors. Just trying to get you thinking Steve, not attack you guys.

Last edited by ovrrnbw; 04/07/20 06:37 PM.

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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
U, good point on the separating of finances and insurance. WAS's throw all the rules and morals out the window after the drop the bomb. Her separating finance and insurance gets in the way of her NYC lifestyle while focusing on art and politics which I imagine are more passions projects than business endeavors. Just trying to get you thinking Steve, not attack you guys.


No, it's a fair point. I go back and forth on it a lot. I feel very naive when I give WAS the benefit of the doubt, that she's ambivalent, she's hurting too, and so on. I guess I'll never really know the whole story. (Not that it really matters, but WAS went back to full-time work, and found a great job that she likes and pays well.)

Where I struggle so much with all of this is around control. The way I've lived my life has always been to work and to work and to work and get the things I want through sheer effort and force of will. Because of that, I can't say I have a lot of disappointments - other people have disappointed me, sure, but generally speaking my life has been pretty good, and it's not because it's been handed to me but it's because I've busted my ass to make my life what I want it to be.

But I can't control this. At all. All I can do is the things that make me a better, healthier person. And I do absolutely 100% believe that it would make us a stronger couple, but that's not why I'm doing it and even if it was, that's just not how thinks work.

I try to maintain self-awareness, but it's hard. I've got it good. I'm an able, talented person living in a wonderful city with a career I enjoy and great health. But then there's the voice: if that's the case, why doesn't she want me? If you have all of these things in your life you find fulfilling, why can't you stop thinking about the R? You've achieved so much in your life, how could you let this fail? How does anyone find peace with all of the things they wished they did differently?

I have such admiration for people on here who have done such a good job at detachment and dropping the rope. I just don't know how to do it. And I know it's rooted deep in me, all of my fears of abandonment from being adopted and my Mom passing away early, all of my co-dependency and NGS being the son of an alcoholic, and it just feels at times that I'm struggling against such a strong tide and it just floods and overwhelms me.

But I'm working on it. I'm working with my IC, I'm reading books, I'm posting here, I'm trying to figure it all out. That's all I can do, I guess.


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I'm reading The Inner Citadel by Pierre Hadot. I found it b/c of a member here (R2C) and a link to the "daily stoic" on youtube. There is a great quote and this translated more than one way:

“What really frightens and dismays us is not external events themselves, but the way in which we think about them. It is not things that disturb us, but our interpretation of their significance.”

You have that control.


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Originally Posted by SteveS
I try to maintain self-awareness, but it's hard. I've got it good. I'm an able, talented person living in a wonderful city with a career I enjoy and great health. But then there's the voice: if that's the case, why doesn't she want me? If you have all of these things in your life you find fulfilling, why can't you stop thinking about the R? You've achieved so much in your life, how could you let this fail? How does anyone find peace with all of the things they wished they did differently?

I have such admiration for people on here who have done such a good job at detachment and dropping the rope. I just don't know how to do it. And I know it's rooted deep in me, all of my fears of abandonment from being adopted and my Mom passing away early, all of my co-dependency and NGS being the son of an alcoholic, and it just feels at times that I'm struggling against such a strong tide and it just floods and overwhelms me.

But I'm working on it. I'm working with my IC, I'm reading books, I'm posting here, I'm trying to figure it all out. That's all I can do, I guess.

SteveS ~ I suspect letting go is going to be really hard for you, given how you have described yourself here (and based on my own personal experience).

You are very success-oriented and accomplished and driven. Possibly that's connected to your FOA and NGS and co-dependency. I don't share the same childhood background as you, but I had a messed up childhood in my own way and I had full-blown FOA and NGS and co-dependent tendencies as a result. I also compensated by doing really well in school and finding self-worth through that route. I also struggle to accept failure, and think "if I just did X, Y, or Z differently..." and then I feel like absolute cr*p. I'm guessing you feel the same way. You didn't let things fail, they just did fail.

I suspect this journey for you may be really challenging. There's a saying about anxiety - "the more you think about your anxiety, the more anxious you get." In my case, I can sometimes over-commit to IC, books, podcasts, the DB forum, and other self-improvement activities, at the expense of living my daily life and enjoying it. I don't think in your situation I would have been able to drop the rope. It took some truly awful things to develop in my situation. So please grant yourself some self-compassion. It's not easy to drop that rope. Find the things that work for you, and discard the things that don't.

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Originally Posted by unchien
Originally Posted by SteveS
I try to maintain self-awareness, but it's hard. I've got it good. I'm an able, talented person living in a wonderful city with a career I enjoy and great health. But then there's the voice: if that's the case, why doesn't she want me? If you have all of these things in your life you find fulfilling, why can't you stop thinking about the R? You've achieved so much in your life, how could you let this fail? How does anyone find peace with all of the things they wished they did differently?

I have such admiration for people on here who have done such a good job at detachment and dropping the rope. I just don't know how to do it. And I know it's rooted deep in me, all of my fears of abandonment from being adopted and my Mom passing away early, all of my co-dependency and NGS being the son of an alcoholic, and it just feels at times that I'm struggling against such a strong tide and it just floods and overwhelms me.

But I'm working on it. I'm working with my IC, I'm reading books, I'm posting here, I'm trying to figure it all out. That's all I can do, I guess.

SteveS ~ I suspect letting go is going to be really hard for you, given how you have described yourself here (and based on my own personal experience).

You are very success-oriented and accomplished and driven. Possibly that's connected to your FOA and NGS and co-dependency. I don't share the same childhood background as you, but I had a messed up childhood in my own way and I had full-blown FOA and NGS and co-dependent tendencies as a result. I also compensated by doing really well in school and finding self-worth through that route. I also struggle to accept failure, and think "if I just did X, Y, or Z differently..." and then I feel like absolute cr*p. I'm guessing you feel the same way. You didn't let things fail, they just did fail.

I suspect this journey for you may be really challenging. There's a saying about anxiety - "the more you think about your anxiety, the more anxious you get." In my case, I can sometimes over-commit to IC, books, podcasts, the DB forum, and other self-improvement activities, at the expense of living my daily life and enjoying it. I don't think in your situation I would have been able to drop the rope. It took some truly awful things to develop in my situation. So please grant yourself some self-compassion. It's not easy to drop that rope. Find the things that work for you, and discard the things that don't.


Yes, this is exactly right. I get it from a lot of places - my friends, my family - why can't you just move on? What are you holding on to? And it's not like they're wrong. WAW has been awful to me since we got separated, and from their perspective, why would I want to be with someone who treats me like that?

But I don't want to give up. Partly because of the work I've been doing; I am 100% confident that I'm not the same man I was six months ago, and that this time off has been a blessing in that I can now recognize a lot of the behaviors that I contributed to our sitch. And partly because I'm still very attracted to her, we still get along so well when we do meet up, and so on.

I'm working on it with my IC. As I said, you're right - I've defined so much of my life through achievement, and derived so much of my self-worth from that accomplishment. And it's hard to move on because this is my biggest failure, and there's just so many X, Y, or Z things I can point to that I wish I would have done differently. I know I didn't consciously *let* things fail; if that was the case, I wouldn't be so unhappy now. But I also know I didn't do all that I could.

Your last paragraph is interesting - I'm sorry of course that it took some awful things to develop - but I really do worry that this purgatory, this friendly rapport that I have with WAW is actually doing me so much more harm than good. But I don't know how to judge all of it. I want to reconcile, so how can it be a bad thing that we can make each other laugh to easily? I just don't know how to weigh it all.


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So, Q for the crew. As you may or may not know, WAW and I are not legally separated. She's mentioned wanting to get this out out of the way for many months, and has said that she has a difficult time getting her head wrapped around what she's really feeling and where she wants to go until that process is complete.

(For some background, both she and I are very data-driven people, so I can understand where she's coming from. A few people have asked me if there's an ulterior motive to this (such as dangling the hope of R to get more cooperation from me) and I really don't think so.)

Anyway, because she's dragging her feet on getting this document together, and because she's said it's such a blocker for her, I've begun working with my counsel to get the first-pass of the document drafted and get the ball rolling.

My concern is: a lot of vets in here have said to not initiate things that you are not ready for. If WAW wants to initiate something, be clear that it is not what you want but that you will not stand in their way, but if are not ready for D or for whatever step is out there, do not do it. Instead GAL, and go back to focusing on you.

Does that advice apply here? On one hand, I'm not thrilled with the prospect of getting this document in place because it's basically the entire work of getting D from an agreement perspective. On the other, this is what she said she needs to move towards a resolution, and one of my 180s w/r/t the two of us is taking the lead on management matters relating to the both of us.


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Originally Posted by SteveS
So, Q for the crew. As you may or may not know, WAW and I are not legally separated. She's mentioned wanting to get this out out of the way for many months, and has said that she has a difficult time getting her head wrapped around what she's really feeling and where she wants to go until that process is complete.

(For some background, both she and I are very data-driven people, so I can understand where she's coming from. A few people have asked me if there's an ulterior motive to this (such as dangling the hope of R to get more cooperation from me) and I really don't think so.)

Anyway, because she's dragging her feet on getting this document together, and because she's said it's such a blocker for her, I've begun working with my counsel to get the first-pass of the document drafted and get the ball rolling.

My concern is: a lot of vets in here have said to not initiate things that you are not ready for. If WAW wants to initiate something, be clear that it is not what you want but that you will not stand in their way, but if are not ready for D or for whatever step is out there, do not do it. Instead GAL, and go back to focusing on you.

Does that advice apply here? On one hand, I'm not thrilled with the prospect of getting this document in place because it's basically the entire work of getting D from an agreement perspective. On the other, this is what she said she needs to move towards a resolution, and one of my 180s w/r/t the two of us is taking the lead on management matters relating to the both of us.


Hi Steve -- I'm by no means an expert or a vet, but I've read the DR book twice now and have been working with a DB coach, plus all of the stuff that I've read on the boards, and I think that, if you want a chance at reconciliation, you should leave it be. There's nothing wrong with working with a lawyer, but at the end of the day, if she wants a separation or a divorce and you don't, then it should be in incumbent on her to do the work, and deal with all of the realizations and pain and hurt that come with it. Just my two cents, though. Take it for what its worth.


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Steve ~ Is there any reason that YOU need to legally separate (financial or otherwise)?

Don't work on a legal S as a way to prove a 180. Just my opinion.

Some here would say you are firmly establishing yourself as a Plan B with the friendly rapport with your WAW. I don't think in those terms (Plan A/B) necessarily, but I do think you are showing her that you are okay being friends, which makes perpetuating the situation quite easy for her.

I don't know how to help you get over the failure part. I feel it too. But it's not all your fault.

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Hello Steve,

I'm hopeful that some other vets chime in too.

If you want to legally separate and legally move down the path to divorce, then knock out the separation agreement for her.

Originally Posted by SteveS
On one hand, I'm not thrilled with the prospect of getting this document in place because it's basically the entire work of getting D from an agreement perspective. On the other, this is what she said she needs to move towards a resolution, and one of my 180s w/r/t the two of us is taking the lead on management matters relating to the both of us.


I think when you do this and remove the "hard work" you remove the consequence of her choice and she never has to face the reality and really ask herself if this is what she wants. She said she "needs this to move towards a resolution". Maybe she meant that when she said it, maybe not. But with her feelings being all over the place I would not hold this statement like it's Gospel either.

I also think you can bring this to a quicker resolution by doing this. I don't know if that is true.


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Thanks all for the replies so far. Yeah, there's a lot sort of mixed in here.

I do think that sooner or later, she'll get around to forming it with her lawyer and send it over to me, so I don't think there's a world where we go straight to D proceedings or we start to seriously talk about reconciliation/next steps. To phrase it another way, this is likely the next phase, regardless of whether it's initiated by me or initiated by here. So if I'm the one who forms the first document, then in theory I get to set the first terms, and to signal to her that I'm not just going to sit around passively forever, waiting for her to tell me how my life is going to go.

On the flip side, I can absolutely understand the psychology of not making it easier for her, and also making her go through with the mental exercise of facing the reality of the situation and assessing if it's what she really wants.


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Steve ~ I think you should do nothing at all.

UNLESS... you can separate yourself from hoping for a particular outcome. Right now I sense your heart is holding on and your head is telling you to move on. When things are confusing in that way, maybe best to sit still until your internal tug-of-war calms down.

Things will eventually settle and become clearer.

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Originally Posted by unchien
Steve ~ I think you should do nothing at all.

UNLESS... you can separate yourself from hoping for a particular outcome. Right now I sense your heart is holding on and your head is telling you to move on. When things are confusing in that way, maybe best to sit still until your internal tug-of-war calms down.

Things will eventually settle and become clearer.


Good advice. Yes, I'm still pretty firmly in the camp of wanting to R. I'll keep waiting it out, and working on me.


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Just some journaling.

WAW and I live about five minutes apart; she in Brooklyn Heights and me in DUMBO, just down the street near the water. When she moved out, she needed to stay close for a few reasons, partly because she likes this area a lot, but also because she is on the Community Board and has to live within the area to serve on it. Anyway, we actually haven't run into each other all that much or at least not as much as you'd think, but we've now run into each other twice in about a week.

The first time I mentioned previously, and then last night, I was feeling very cooped up with the lockdown so I went for a walk and ran into her at the end of her jog. We talked for a 20-30 minutes, mostly about this and that, nothing too substantive. As has been the case with our last few interactions, the rapport is still very much there. We make each other laugh, nothing feels forced, conversation is flowing on both sides. The most awkward part for sure is the goodbye.

In these moments, I've been trying to remind myself to talk less, listen, and validate. It's been hard because she's really not letting too much out from underneath the curtain. She appears to really like her new job, and she seems content with things. I obviously don't wish her a bad time, but it's sort of clear that she's realized that she doesn't need me and while I don't think for a second I was holding her back in any way, it makes me wonder if that's the conclusion that she's drawn. (With that said, I don't think at any point of our M, either one of us would have said we *needed* each other. We're both too independently-minded.)

On my side of it, I'm fairly sure I don't let on that anything is other than good on my end, either - my business is starting up, I'm excited about that, and I feel good about my physical appearance thanks to my working out. But obviously behind the scenes I miss her terribly and while I don't *need* her by any means, this has been very disruptive and unpleasant for me. I am 100% sure that she knows that R is my goal.

I sort of go into these over-analysis loops whenever I see her, which doesn't help at all. On one hand, it's a good thing that the rapport is still there, and she clearly still enjoys talking to me. On the other hand, initiates most of the contact we do have (although it's typically very logistical - can you help me with this, etc.) and I think I've beat the situation with our legal separation into the ground a bit on here.

I'm sure the answer of "what to do" is nothing - keep GAL, keep going to IC, keep reading, and all of that. I sort of just wish I could handle all of this better than I do.


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The other thing I forgot to mention, the next two months or so are going to be a tough period for me.

We had met at our college's version of Homecoming, which would have been happening this weekend. Our first date was about eight years ago. We also got in a huge fight a year ago on our way to the Homecoming event which feels in hindsight like the straw that broke the camel's back, given the BD a month later and the S a month after that. We also got married in May, so yeah, the April-May-June stretch is tough mentally.


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Steve ~ I wonder if any of the vets here have advice about whether you should engage in the 20-30 conversations when you run into each other.

I'm not a big fan of the "friend zone" or "Plan B" concept, but I wonder if these conversations are really serving you well. I could be wrong but I get the sense from your posts that you give her all the time and space in the world, and when you do run into each other, you are quite friendly and trying to DB, but you have a *goal* in mind. I completely understand because these are your rare opportunities to feel things out and test the waters, but maybe an experiment to try next time would be to just say "Hey I'm busy gotta run, good to see you" or something like that?

Just throwing ideas out there, I have no idea what is the right thing to do.

April-May-June is tough for me too. Hang in there.

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S,

You’re in a tough spot. I think it hurts your detachment so you should avoid her as much as possible. Your definitely in the FZ and I don’t see you getting out anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by LH19
S,

You’re in a tough spot. I think it hurts your detachment so you should avoid her as much as possible. Your definitely in the FZ and I don’t see you getting out anytime soon.


Fair enough, and to be clear, I'm not intentionally running into her.

I do recall her asking me a while back what I would do if we were to ever split. I can't remember the context, but I told her that I'd be devastated and that I don't think that we could be friends, because seeing her would represent such heartache. Maybe she's testing that, I don't know.

I do think it's a good thing that she's reminded that I can still make her laugh, and that we have a natural chemistry. The corollary being I don't think it's a positive thing for her to have negative feelings about me, as an example. But I understand and buy the logic that a lot of what's happening right now might be reinforcing the idea to her that we could have a relationship on a friend level.


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Originally Posted by SteveS
I do recall her asking me a while back what I would do if we were to ever split. I can't remember the context, but I told her that I'd be devastated and that I don't think that we could be friends, because seeing her would represent such heartache. Maybe she's testing that, I don't know.

My guess is she knows even today you would come right back as soon as she offered the opportunity.

Originally Posted by SteveS
I do think it's a good thing that she's reminded that I can still make her laugh, and that we have a natural chemistry. The corollary being I don't think it's a positive thing for her to have negative feelings about me, as an example. But I understand and buy the logic that a lot of what's happening right now might be reinforcing the idea to her that we could have a relationship on a friend level.
I know LH can be blunt and I drive him nuts with my NGS/anxious waffling but I vigorously agree with him 100%. I think you need to focus on your detachment and cut these conversations short, even if you have to force yourself and it feels fake. Or just tell yourself it's an experiment.

You aren't going to prove to her that you have chemistry through these interactions. You are likely going to prove to her that you are doing okay (not devastated and heartbroken) and completely okay being in the FZ, leaving her guilt-free to continue as-is. And it will be even harder for you to grow and move towards the detachment you need.

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Originally Posted by SteveS

I do recall her asking me a while back what I would do if we were to ever split. I can't remember the context, but I told her that I'd be devastated and that I don't think that we could be friends, because seeing her would represent such heartache.

Ok Steve you have some homework to do.

My response would be “You would never leave me baby because you would miss me too much”.

Now compare that to your response and tell me which one builds attraction and which one is weak?

Keep in mind this is something I learned over time and now comes natural to me.

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Hi everyone,

Just wanted to post a quick update. Difficult day emotionally/mentally yesterday as it is/was our anniversary. The next month or so is quite a stretch - April/May/June is when we wet, when we got married, when the BD and S happened, and her birthday all in a row.

All in all, I've been doing better. I've been working with a different IC and really doing some tough work regarding my fears of abandonment and addressing trauma from my childhood. For once in my life, I feel really confident that whatever relationship I'm in next will be very different as I've done a LOT of hard and sometimes painful work to understand how I contributed to my sitch.

As far as WAW and I, pretty much the same. We talk about every other week, usually under the pretense of something logistical, and it ends up being a hourlong conversation or so catching up on our lives, mostly more her talking and me validating and listening. It's all nice, but I'm careful not to let myself into the trap that those conversations are leading towards anything.

My personal game plan generally remains unchanged as well: focus on my business and my self-improvement, and do not try to control things I cannot control. She has made no movement towards D or legal separation, and I refuse to do so until the day I wake up and realize that is what I want. Until then, I focus on myself and what I need to do be the best version of myself I can be.

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Hi SteveS,

Originally Posted by SteveS
We talk about every other week, usually under the pretense of something logistical, and it ends up being a hourlong conversation

I'm curious why you're having these hour-long conversations.

You say you aren't fooling yourself into believing they lead back towards a romantic relationship. Okay. Is your idea that you enjoy having her as a buddy? Is that a relationship that would work for you even if/when she looks elsewhere for a romantic connection? Just trying to understand where your head's at.

Originally Posted by SteveS
She has made no movement towards D or legal separation, and I refuse to do so until the day I wake up and realize that is what I want.

Makes sense. You don't want D, and delaying D maximizes her options.

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You have to be your own man but I would reconsider the every other week check in.

Who is calling who in this scenario?


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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
You have to be your own man but I would reconsider the every other week check in.

Who is calling who in this scenario?



She is. She reaches out to me, saying she wants to talk about finances, our budget, what we should do about our stocks, and so on.

They're not scheduled check-ins by any means. It's just sort of a regular cadence in which she gets anxious about something and wants to talk about it.

To answer CW's question, I enjoy the non-topical conversation because I still very much enjoy her as a person -- she makes me laugh and I enjoy the insight into her life, and I do think she shares that information with me because she recognizes my understanding of her. I don't feel the conversation is forced by any means, and I generally view it as a way to validate and to listen. I'd be lying to you if I said I didn't want to reconcile, so in some sense I feel that listening and validation opportunity is a valuable one to use to my advantage.


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Steve,

well I think it's good that she is the one calling you still. The subjects she is bringing seem a bit trivial, but obviously you don't want to tell her to stop beating around the bush because you'll just spook her.

If it is not forced and feels natural then I say what the hell.

I was thinking about what would happen if you were to stop taking the calls. I think eventually you might get to that point where you just say to yourself "No thanks" when she is calling, but again you are your own man and I'm not sure what you think.

Hope business is well. We are almost done with our wedding venue, but still have some land clearing to do. The shutdown might give us an immediate boost with other venues shutting down and delaying weddings.


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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Steve,

well I think it's good that she is the one calling you still. The subjects she is bringing seem a bit trivial, but obviously you don't want to tell her to stop beating around the bush because you'll just spook her.

If it is not forced and feels natural then I say what the hell.

I was thinking about what would happen if you were to stop taking the calls. I think eventually you might get to that point where you just say to yourself "No thanks" when she is calling, but again you are your own man and I'm not sure what you think.

Hope business is well. We are almost done with our wedding venue, but still have some land clearing to do. The shutdown might give us an immediate boost with other venues shutting down and delaying weddings.


I think they're somewhat trivial too but she is the anxious type, particularly around finances. And it's a demonstrable 180 for me, in the M I usually took care of that and made decisions on my own (on behalf of both of us, obviously) which made her feel unimportant and not a part of a team, so I'm going out of my way to listen to her, get her read on things, talk her through things, and so on.

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I don't think I understand her issues with you. That seems pretty minor, and I say that knowing that you are supposed to keep your spouse happy, and feeling valued. But when one person clearly has a position of knowledge on a subject you kinda let that spouse do their thing.


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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
I don't think I understand her issues with you. That seems pretty minor, and I say that knowing that you are supposed to keep your spouse happy, and feeling valued. But when one person clearly has a position of knowledge on a subject you kinda let that spouse do their thing.


One thing I've been really working on with my IC is my tendency to take blame on my shoulders as an act of agency/control, under the logic that if.I own them, I can fix them, and therefore everything can go back to normal. So I have to temper myself a little bit when I list out the issues!

But long story short, NGS caught up to me and to us. It affected the way we communicated, the way that we showed love to each other, and certainly it led me to lie and mislead her on truly, truly stupid things in order to avoid a confrontation. And of course the usuals -- getting complacent, not understanding the cost of emotional labor, and so on.

I equivocate it much more to death by a million paper cuts than some huge, glaring issue, and I do have a significant amount of regret for not recognizing it earlier, and for not addressing it in a more fulsome manner with my IC, as it's been an issue I've struggled with all of my life. The double whammy of being adopted and growing up in an abusive/alcoholic/turbulent home is a spicy meatball rattling around in my subconscious.

Was I an awful husband? Absolutely not. I loved her, and worked hard to provide a good life for us. I'm not an addict, not a cheater, not abusive. But you can do a lot of things right and still not have it work. That's life.

I do feel lucky in that I know a lot of things are working for me: I'm young-ish, I'm ambitious and successful, and I'll find love again. I don't doubt that. And I feel confident that the hard work I'm doing to face my issues head-on will pay huge dividends down the round. But there's a reason why I married my WAW - she makes me laugh harder than anyone I've ever met, and as far as physical attraction, no one's been close, either. And I do think that the second time around -- if there is one -- will be so much smoother given the hindsight and perspective the S has given us. Until that day comes, or the day comes when I wake up and don't feel the way I do, it's me time.

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Need some advice.

A friend of mine in CA was talking about his love life, and how strange it is to be dating in the age of the virus. I asked him how he's been going about it, and he said that he's been using an app called Bumble, and it's really worked well for him.

Me being the fool I am, I got curious, downloaded it, and literally ten or so profiles in, boom, WAW.

I probably should have considered how I would feel if I saw her on there before I downloaded it, but I didn't. Obviously I'm not thrilled. Knowing what I know about her schedule, I'm sort of shocked she has time to date anyone even without the virus but I guess that's besides the point.

Here's where I waffle, even though I know the peanut gallery is going to jump all over me: during the M, I had Tinder and Bumble on my phone now and then, not to date anyone or meet anyone, but just to see what was out there. It seems so stupid (and hurtful) in retrospect, but it was kind of fun just to see all of the people who were around. I deleted it once my WAW found out from a friend of hers who found me on it; I'm sure you can imagine the fight and damage that incident caused. Anyway, what I'm driving at is that I guess I don't know that she's specifically using it to date, but that's probably giving her an awful lot of leeway given the situation.

So, what to do? Detachment would say not to care, it is what it is, blowing up and forcing a negative conversation isn't going to help anything. But I assume others would say "Look, that's a boundary, you're well within your right to say that you're not going to stay in this S if the other is out actively dating". Any insight?

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S,

Don’t even bring it up unless your ready to D her. What did you think was going to happen? Did you think she wasn’t going to date?

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Originally Posted by LH19
S,

Don’t even bring it up unless your ready to D her. What did you think was going to happen? Did you think she wasn’t going to date?


Yeah, I don't know. It's a good question. When we went into the S, we didn't have any conversations around structure or ground rules or anything. I wish we did.

I do remember in MC before we stopped going that WAW characterized the S as "giving space, not giving up". I remember that very clearly. For me, dating someone else sort of feels like giving up, so the implication would be that we wouldn't. I haven't, at least not seriously and nothing with a relationship in mind. I also clearly remember telling her that I had two stipulations: that I wouldn't be a Plan B, and that I wanted us both to agree that dragging things out if one side was done in the name of letting the other down easily would be much more hurtful than just having the conversation.

I suppose that's the difference between being on one side of a BD as opposed to the other. One side goes into full-on self-improvement mode, reading books, coming on here, going to IC. The other side just enjoys the freedom.


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S,

I’m sorry you’re struggling Steve and I want to point some things out to you.

99.9% of the time it is about being with or dating other people. That’s why there should never be any stipulations in the separation because the WW will never adhere to them. You are plan b until you decide you’re not and it sounds like that will continue.

Her words me nothing and you should only look at actions. Joining a dating website is an action. That’s the reality. When you ignore reality that is when you suffer.

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Originally Posted by LH19
S,

I’m sorry you’re struggling Steve and I want to point some things out to you.

99.9% of the time it is about being with or dating other people. That’s why there should never be any stipulations in the separation because the WW will never adhere to them. You are plan b until you decide you’re not and it sounds like that will continue.

Her words me nothing and you should only look at actions. Joining a dating website is an action. That’s the reality. When you ignore reality that is when you suffer.



That's fair. Appreciate the cold water, as hard as it is.

I guess nothing has really changed, just that this is more visible. One day I'll wake up and decide that I'm done, or she will. Until then it's just another day and another opportunity for me to be the best version of myself I can be.


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Hi Steve,

I feel bad that you had to see it. But it can be a positive if you use it fuel your detachment. I watched a guy jump off a scissor lift from 6 ft today at the venue. I felt the pain and my stomach dropped as I watched. Then I remembered the inner dialogue I had that created that feeling.

I'm not here to be the peanut gallery, though it would be fun. I did notice that you mentioned you've been dating during this separation but not seriously. You had the dating app years back. Your situation has parallels to many here. What were you searching for? What is she searching for? Validation, attention, true love, independence, success, ego boost?

And for newbies reading this I just want to say that there are never rules in a separation no matter what anyone says. Your W might have meant what she said in MC and she could have changed her mind since then. And yes the action is the action but you gotta focus on number one. If you find her actions too much you can just go dark and stop answering her calls. I know it's hard but you don't need to do anything about it right now. Stay strong my friend.


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Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Hi Steve,

I feel bad that you had to see it. But it can be a positive if you use it fuel your detachment. I watched a guy jump off a scissor lift from 6 ft today at the venue. I felt the pain and my stomach dropped as I watched. Then I remembered the inner dialogue I had that created that feeling.

I'm not here to be the peanut gallery, though it would be fun. I did notice that you mentioned you've been dating during this separation but not seriously. You had the dating app years back. Your situation has parallels to many here. What were you searching for? What is she searching for? Validation, attention, true love, independence, success, ego boost?

And for newbies reading this I just want to say that there are never rules in a separation no matter what anyone says. Your W might have meant what she said in MC and she could have changed her mind since then. And yes the action is the action but you gotta focus on number one. If you find her actions too much you can just go dark and stop answering her calls. I know it's hard but you don't need to do anything about it right now. Stay strong my friend.


Thanks for the reply, O.

Yeah, I've been working on it a lot with my IC: it was about feeling wanted, feeling desired. It wasn't even that WAW wasn't displaying that during the M, it was an insecurity I've had all of my life and I wasn't addressing it. Obviously it backfired and did a lot of damage. I can't speak to WAW's mindset at all, but I'm sure an ego boost for her can't hurt right now.

Detachment for me is very, very hard, as I'm sure you know from following my sitch. I won't belabor the point, but growing up in the household I grew up in coupled with being adopted hardwired in some difficult hurdles to deal with. I have to remind myself that how great I've been feeling the past few weeks due to the work I've been doing with my IC are something to be celebrated even if tonight knocked me back a little bit.

I'm a bit mad that I brought this on myself - I should have known that she might have been on there. Other than that, I've been keeping it very dark: haven't responded to two texts she sent me a few days back, never visit her social media, never reach out to her first. It doesn't feel like it's helped me detach much, but I'm sure it has.

This is very tough. The logical side of me says that I need clarity, I need to understand where we're at - even if it's an answer I don't want to hear - if I'm ever going to be able to start to really heal. The emotional/DB side is saying you don't have to do anything, you need to work on yourself and let the chips fall where they fall. I'm about a year in since BD. I still love her and still want to work it out. Until the day that I don't, this is the road I'm on.


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Originally Posted by SteveS
The logical side of me says that I need clarity, I need to understand where we're at - even if it's an answer I don't want to hear

Hi Steve, the logical side of you knows where you're at--your wife's on online dating sites exploring options, while continuing to chat with you, to preserve you as a backup plan and friend.

Originally Posted by SteveS
I had two stipulations: that I wouldn't be a Plan B.. "Look, that's a boundary, you're well within your right to say that you're not going to stay in this S if the other is out actively dating". Any insight? I still love her and still want to work it out. Until the day that I don't, this is the road I'm on.

It's up to you where your boundaries are. I believe I'd choose D in your shoes, because being married doesn't mean much if one of you is dating others, but we never know until we're there, huh?

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Just some food for thought from the gallery.

I had a good talk with a friend last night, which was otherwise a pretty rough night. I relayed to her how good I've been feeling the last few weeks, thanks to the work I've been doing in IC and my belief that whatever's next for me relationship-wise will be so different. Her opinion was that given that something like finding WAW on Bumble was enough to completely throw me off that happiness and recovery, that's sign enough that the situation has crossed over into something that is damaging and actively holding me back, and therefore for my own good I need to address it.

Whether I ask the question or I don't, the answer probably doesn't change. But I also don't want to get D. Am I a fool for clinging on to whatever hope I have? I feel I know the answer: detach, focus on you, and if there is going to be some big change, it's going to have to come from a change of heart on her side, for which there is no timeline. It's just so hard for me to detach when I'm clinging on to hope.

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Originally Posted by SteveS
Her opinion was that given that something like finding WAW on Bumble was enough to completely throw me off that happiness and recovery, that's sign enough that the situation has crossed over into something that is damaging and actively holding me back, and therefore for my own good I need to address it.

This is just your brain trying to get you to pursue so you can get some relief from the pain that your feeling.
Originally Posted by SteveS
Whether I ask the question or I don't, the answer probably doesn't change. But I also don't want to get D.
Steve you have to try to understand that you have no control over her choosing to D you.
Originally Posted by SteveS
Am I a fool for clinging on to whatever hope I have?

Hope is ok if it motivates you. Hope is not ok if it causes suffering.
Originally Posted by SteveS
I feel I know the answer: detach, focus on you, and if there is going to be some big change, it's going to have to come from a change of heart on her side, for which there is no timeline.

Yes
Originally Posted by SteveS
It's just so hard for me to detach when I'm clinging on to hope.

Yes it is, especially when your holding on with all your might.

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Originally Posted by LH19

Hope is ok if it motivates you. Hope is not ok if it causes suffering.


For the most part, it has been. But that doesn't mean getting knocked backward feels good. Doing the things I need to do to be a better me, I'd be lying if it said that wasn't at least partially motivated by the hope of a R.

I'm just grappling with my head around how much longer I can do this. When we separated (June 2019), I told myself the end of the year was my limit, because I was in too much pain. I blew right past that, because I just wasn't ready. And I'm still not. But I've simply got to learn to detach.


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Originally Posted by SteveS
I'm just grappling with my head around how much longer I can do this. When we separated (June 2019), I told myself the end of the year was my limit, because I was in too much pain. I blew right past that, because I just wasn't ready. And I'm still not. But I've simply got to learn to detach.

How much longer you can do what? What's funny is that it was only when I "gave up" on my relationship that I doubled down on fixing my problems through IC, GAL, and No Contact. Giving up and moving on approximates DB'ing very well, especially for the case of someone with an OM.

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Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by SteveS
I'm just grappling with my head around how much longer I can do this. When we separated (June 2019), I told myself the end of the year was my limit, because I was in too much pain. I blew right past that, because I just wasn't ready. And I'm still not. But I've simply got to learn to detach.

How much longer you can do what? What's funny is that it was only when I "gave up" on my relationship that I doubled down on fixing my problems through IC, GAL, and No Contact. Giving up and moving on approximates DB'ing very well, especially for the case of someone with an OM.


I was referring to holding out hope, because during the 95% of the time when hope is motivating to me, it's the extra kick in the pants I need to slog through tough IC sessions, stay up on my reading, and take care of myself. During the other 5%, it's a kick in the balls that makes me wonder if the other 95% is worth it.

For me, I don't think that holding on to hope means that I'm devoting any less focus to IC/GAL/NC, but I can absolutely buy the argument that it's not letting me detach.


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Quick devil's advocate question. Are you holding on to hope or are you refusing to let go and drop the frayed strands you have left of the rope? Because it can be a fine line. That's where LH's statement of motivation vs. suffering lies. In that line.

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Originally Posted by SteveS
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by SteveS
I'm just grappling with my head around how much longer I can do this. When we separated (June 2019), I told myself the end of the year was my limit, because I was in too much pain. I blew right past that, because I just wasn't ready. And I'm still not. But I've simply got to learn to detach.

How much longer you can do what? What's funny is that it was only when I "gave up" on my relationship that I doubled down on fixing my problems through IC, GAL, and No Contact. Giving up and moving on approximates DB'ing very well, especially for the case of someone with an OM.


I was referring to holding out hope, because during the 95% of the time when hope is motivating to me, it's the extra kick in the pants I need to slog through tough IC sessions, stay up on my reading, and take care of myself. During the other 5%, it's a kick in the balls that makes me wonder if the other 95% is worth it.

For me, I don't think that holding on to hope means that I'm devoting any less focus to IC/GAL/NC, but I can absolutely buy the argument that it's not letting me detach.


I am a big hope guy. It is is one of the big three found in I Corinthians 13: faith, hope and love.

Here is the thing, hope doesn't have to be a counter motivator to doing what you need to do. It is kind of like if a loved one suffers a debilitating illness or injury, you hope they fully recover someday. But that doesn't mean that you don't prepare for their current condition. Putting in a wheelchair ramp at the house, getting a vehicle that can transport them and their chair, etc. The whole time you still have hope that one day they'll fully heal and recover.

I've seen other people say it is impossible to detach AND still have hope. I don't agree with that. I think people confuse hope with expectations. Surely expectations are a detriment to detachment, but you can detach and still hold out hope that someday your WAS will come back to their sense. Just don't expect them to.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
Here is the thing, hope doesn't have to be a counter motivator to doing what you need to do. It is kind of like if a loved one suffers a debilitating illness or injury, you hope they fully recover someday. But that doesn't mean that you don't prepare for their current condition. Putting in a wheelchair ramp at the house, getting a vehicle that can transport them and their chair, etc. The whole time you still have hope that one day they'll fully heal and recover.


I like that analogy, it makes a lot of sense.

No point in lying to you guys - I caved to the hurt I was feeling and told WAW that I'd like to talk about where we're at. She responded and we're talking on Sunday. She wants to go over the paperwork for a legal separation, which she's consistently said is a blocker for her.

I made my bed I suppose, but I don't have to lie in it. I do want to be open and helpful w/r/t the legal separation because of our historical issues of working together on things (show a 180) and her literally saying that how we communicate and handle that process will tell her a lot. I know, I know - believe her actions, not words. But obviously I think so far as a larger discussion, I'll just punt and say that I changed my mind, and that we should focus on the things we need to take care of first.

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Oh boy! Couldn't help yourself hunh?

You couldn't just give her the space she was asking for because of fear of giving her too much space. This is never, ever, ever a problem, and it's the biggest challenge people here face. Contacting her and pursuing her is the same challenge people face if they're trying to quit smoking and sitting in front of a table covered in cigarettes. It's just so easy to do. You know you shouldn't, you know it isn't good for you, but you want to *so badly* that you can convince yourself that it's okay to pursue.

That's what the "my giving her space is allowing her to get over me and date other people" argument really is, it's your brain trying to convince you that it's okay to pursue her because that's what you really, really, really want to do.

It won't work, it will make things worse, don't do it.
Recognize that you're freaking out and grasping at straws and that's okay. You feel like you're drowning and you're looking for a life line. Don't do it.

The number one challenge with this method is discipline, most people simply lack the self-discipline to do it. If self discipline were easy everyone would be thin and fit.

She wants space, you're being the best partner you can be by giving it to her.

If you ignore what she wants, you're asserting that you know better, you're going to disregard what she's asked for and assert what you want instead. How do you think that will end?

Can I ask why legal separation and not divorce?

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Originally Posted by SteveS
I do want to be open and helpful w/r/t the legal separation because of our historical issues of working together on things (show a 180) and her literally saying that how we communicate and handle that process will tell her a lot. I know, I know - believe her actions, not words.

Hi SteveS,

You say you "know" this, but asking her for words implies you don't believe it applies to you or her.

Are you eager for Divorce or Legal Separation? If yes, then working with her to do that is great. Otherwise, another DB maxim is to let the WAS do the legwork. Don't help them achieve that which you don't want. Open the cage door, but don't push them out, or place treats outside it (with help and generous terms).

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Originally Posted by LH19
Can I ask why legal separation and not divorce?


I don't think WAW wants that right now, and I certainly don't. I can't speak to her logic, other than to repeat what she's said, which is that she wants to get the legal separation in place such that she understands the lay of the land. Beyond that I don't have much of an answer. Optimistically I could say that if she wanted to get a D, she would say that and be moving towards it. She's never said it and isn't taking any direct action towards that.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
Are you eager for Divorce or Legal Separation?


I wouldn't say I'm eager for it - certainly not D - but not having a legal separation in place does impact me financially in a way I'd like to get resolved, and I also believe not having one is causing us to be in this protracted limbo purgatory. But I am obviously very aware that I likely won't like what's on the other side of the mountain.

I think where I failed here - apart from reaching out - is that I'm taking the 180s too literally. It is indeed a 180 for me to help organize our finances, show teamwork, and stay on top of them. But you're right that I'm doing the legwork here towards an outcome that I don't want.

Sigh, this is hard. One step forward, two steps back.

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S,

What is she gaining by legally separating as opposed to D?

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Originally Posted by LH19
S,

What is she gaining by legally separating as opposed to D?


In New York, a legal separation document can be used as a framework for the divorce settlement after one year. So by having a legal separation agreement in place - in addition to having a legal document forcing us to a certain budget and certain rules of spending - you can avoid a painful, protracted, and contentious divorce process if that's what you decide to do.

It's only enforceable a year after the document is signed and notarized, so she can't just turn around and D on those terms. If either one of us in the months before that decides that D is what we want, we'd go through the process as if that separation document didn't exist.

Optimistically, she gets a legal document that organizes our spending, which has long been a concern of hers. And it's a way for her to understand what the ramifications of D would be without having to be fully ready to make that decision.

Pessimistically, it's a way of having discussions about separating assets while there's still a glimmer of hope, as opposed to during the D process when it's not likely to be as amicable.


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Just doing some journaling. I'm re-reading NMMNG and going through some exercises, and I came across a section in the book around attachments to certain outcomes. I wanted just to use this space to work out some of my thinking on the subject.

When I think about my M, I was very attached to the mere outcome of being a successful, happy, loving couple. Or to put it another way, the validation that it gave me. I love(d) my WAW very much, but it was also fulfilling an external need for me - other people would see me with a cute wife who loves me and think "Wow, he's got it going on." That was very important to me. And of course, the love of my WAW was very valuable and fulfilling to me, to such an extent that I covert-contracted, hid things, and lied due to my fear of losing that validation and love. Marriage is the ultimate validation, right? Out of everyone in the world, this person chose me to unconditionally love and be as close with as two humans can be.

And so without that, I feel lost. That attachment caused me to be inflexible to any kinds of change or mistakes or deviations from that course. That need (and other issues) overpowered the relationship, which caused me to feel like a failure due to the failed outcome.

And now I'm again putting my eggs into the R basket, because I feel like I'll be happier in a reconciled marriage. That might be true, but it's also true that I'm going to survive no matter what happens, I'm going to be fine no matter what happens, and that pain is sometimes a part of life and that's OK.

It's hard for me to reconcile these thoughts at times: I want very much to R, but how can I aspire to that without being emotionally attached to the outcome, and do I want to R fo the right reasons?

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Hi all. I'll get to some journaling later - not much has changed, honestly - but I'm having a tough day today as it's WAS's birthday and it's impossible not to ruminate on that. I'm deciding whether or not I should say something. She didn't on mine (we separated June 19, my birthday was October) and it really stung, but I also believe that two wrongs don't necessarily make it right.

Any advice helpful.

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What would be your reason for wishing her Happy Birthday?

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Originally Posted by unchien
What would be your reason for wishing her Happy Birthday?


I don't know if there's anything larger to it. It feels like the right thing to do, just as I'd wish any friend of mine a happy birthday.

I doubt that she'd be as stung by me not wishing her one as I was, but I also think that it's not necessary to punish her or get revenge.


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Well, do you want her in your life if even only as a friend?

You cannot control how she responds to anything you do. Just because you decide to do something other than NG behavior doesn't mean you are punishing her.

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S,

You seem like a very successful guy who does well in life. Why are you so obsessed with a woman who has fired as her husband, is on dating websites and didn't acknowledge your birthday?

You don't even have children together. I would really like to hear your answer.

BTW U is right you have NGS big time.

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Originally Posted by unchien
Well, do you want her in your life if even only as a friend?

You cannot control how she responds to anything you do. Just because you decide to do something other than NG behavior doesn't mean you are punishing her.



Good point. I feel like every time that I go back and forth on reaching out vs. not reaching out, I do and I end up wishing I didn't.

Thanks for the advice.


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Hi SteveS, a week from tomorrow is my W's birthday. I have no intention of wishing her a Happy Birthday. Although she was pleasant enough this past Sunday during a dog swap, she didn't wish me a happy Father's Day as she never failed to do in the past. She fired me as her husband and there is no other choice but to move on, and that would include not looking for opportunities to reach out when there is nothing to gain from doing it. She has an OM to do the birthday wishing for this year. My birthday gift to her this year will be for me to not do what she's probably afraid I will do, wish her a Happy Birthday.

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On to the journal.

Looks like it's been about a month since I checked in. Not a lot of progress in regards to my situation, but I'd say generally it's been two steps forward, one step back so far as my own personal progress.

I've been re-reading NMMNG, this time through really taking the time to complete the exercises, as silly as some of them might feel. Right now in my place there's a bunch of post-its around with things like "You will survive this!"; I know it's kind of hokey and cheesy, but they've been helpful just as a reminder to have visible. While I still have a lot of work to do on detachment, I do feel a little more at peace with things and certainly I have every belief that no matter what happens, I'll be fine and that my best days are ahead of me.

I was relaying to my therapist the other day that if anything, I've found myself feeling anger more than ever before. I'm not usually an angry guy - NMMNG alert! - and even when the separation happened, I really never felt angry, I was heartbroken and very guilty about how I contributed to the situation. But I have definitely noticed more anger: I feel like she lied to me when she wanted space and not to give up and I feel like she's being unfair with how she's handled her side of this. This anger isn't manifesting in anything unhealthy, at least in my view -- it's really just helping me see things for what they are, and have a more realistic view of my situation.

As far as the situation itself, nothing to report, really. We talk over text every other week or so, started by her, usually about logistics. I have noticed her checking on my social media more, but I'm not going to let myself read anything into that at all. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't frustrated with where we are, but I'm trying to tell myself as a type this that I can't control anything other than myself, and how I manage my own life. As I've said a few times, I sort of just assume that one day I'll wake up and not want to do it any more; I do believe I'll always love her but that doesn't mean I can stay in this place forever. For now, keep working towards a healthier me and things will resolve on their own time, one way or another.


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S,

You are getting angry because it's part of the stages of grief and it comes after denial. My guess is seeing her on the dating websites triggered that to happen. What she is doing is a classic case of hypergamy (Google) while you are sitting on the side lines. If you want to change your situation you need to display high value and not waiting in the wings for her to comeback. As long as you have hope your feelings won't change until she finds your replacement.

Did you send the HB text?

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Originally Posted by SteveS
On to the journal.

Looks like it's been about a month since I checked in. Not a lot of progress in regards to my situation, but I'd say generally it's been two steps forward, one step back so far as my own personal progress.

I've been re-reading NMMNG, this time through really taking the time to complete the exercises, as silly as some of them might feel. Right now in my place there's a bunch of post-its around with things like "You will survive this!"; I know it's kind of hokey and cheesy, but they've been helpful just as a reminder to have visible. While I still have a lot of work to do on detachment, I do feel a little more at peace with things and certainly I have every belief that no matter what happens, I'll be fine and that my best days are ahead of me.

I was relaying to my therapist the other day that if anything, I've found myself feeling anger more than ever before. I'm not usually an angry guy - NMMNG alert! - and even when the separation happened, I really never felt angry, I was heartbroken and very guilty about how I contributed to the situation. But I have definitely noticed more anger: I feel like she lied to me when she wanted space and not to give up and I feel like she's being unfair with how she's handled her side of this. This anger isn't manifesting in anything unhealthy, at least in my view -- it's really just helping me see things for what they are, and have a more realistic view of my situation.

As far as the situation itself, nothing to report, really. We talk over text every other week or so, started by her, usually about logistics. I have noticed her checking on my social media more, but I'm not going to let myself read anything into that at all. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't frustrated with where we are, but I'm trying to tell myself as a type this that I can't control anything other than myself, and how I manage my own life. As I've said a few times, I sort of just assume that one day I'll wake up and not want to do it any more; I do believe I'll always love her but that doesn't mean I can stay in this place forever. For now, keep working towards a healthier me and things will resolve on their own time, one way or another.


Steve, I see you at a critical juncture in your sitch. It is now over 13 months since BD. And a year since separation. At this point I feel like you are stuck. I hate to see LBS that are stuck.

So what do you want? Do want to keep waiting for her? Do you want to move on with your life? If not now, at what point?

In my sitch I had set a 1 year date post BD. (Since it was 12/23, I set 1/4 as the day I would go file for D and move on with my life if she hadn't recommitted.)

I think this is important Steve. I really do not think in 3-5 years after BD that you want to look back and realize you wasted so much time waiting for her. I've been open about a multi-decade, on-again off-again relationship I had that really had me stuck and stymied. For years. It is not something I look back on fondly about myself. And I really wish I had respected myself enough to have pull the plug on it very early on and moved on with my life.


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Originally Posted by LH19
S,

You seem like a very successful guy who does well in life. Why are you so obsessed with a woman who has fired as her husband, is on dating websites and didn't acknowledge your birthday?

You don't even have children together. I would really like to hear your answer.

BTW U is right you have NGS big time.


It's a fair question, and one that's hard to answer. I do still love her. But it's also true that I struggle very much with abandonment (adopted, very chaotic upbringing) and low self-esteem. I'm working on it as diligently as I can with my therapist.

And yep, NMMNG was like reading a biography. Working on that too.

To answer your question, no, I didn't send the text. I figured that the last few times I came to this board in a similar situation, I was advised not to, I did anyway, and felt foolish afterward. So I didn't.

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Originally Posted by Steve85


Steve, I see you at a critical juncture in your sitch. It is now over 13 months since BD. And a year since separation. At this point I feel like you are stuck. I hate to see LBS that are stuck.

So what do you want? Do want to keep waiting for her? Do you want to move on with your life? If not now, at what point?

In my sitch I had set a 1 year date post BD. (Since it was 12/23, I set 1/4 as the day I would go file for D and move on with my life if she hadn't recommitted.)

I think this is important Steve. I really do not think in 3-5 years after BD that you want to look back and realize you wasted so much time waiting for her. I've been open about a multi-decade, on-again off-again relationship I had that really had me stuck and stymied. For years. It is not something I look back on fondly about myself. And I really wish I had respected myself enough to have pull the plug on it very early on and moved on with my life.


I hear you, but I'd feel a lot more stuck if I weren't so actively trying to work my NMMNG issues, working my therapist, etc. to improve my overall emotional and mental health moving forward. At least right now I can 100% say that I don't feel that whatever's next for me will be fraught with the same issues.

At the same time, that's actually also part of what's holding me back: I really do believe things would be different in a reconciliation, and it's hard for me to look past the connection that we still very much have.

It's hard to answer any questions on timing. Like I said, I always just figured that I'd wake up one day and either not want to do it, or no longer have the option. I certainly don't think it will be or want it to be 3-5 years. I do believe 100% that I will find love again, someone I'll love as much, and a relationship that will be as meaningful to me.

I guess long story short, I don't really have an answer. And to a reply above, I think that the feelings I'm feeling are a result of me turning the corner a little bit.


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S,

Thank you for the honest answers and I think it's great you working on the issues with a therapist.

Ultimately your fear of abandonment caused you to hold on too tight in your relationship which caused you to act desperate and needy which drove her away after 2.25 years. Just reaffirming your fears. ([censored] how that works) Then she goes out for a run and you just by chance run into her and then text her later to go out on a date. She starts to feel like you're suffocating her again so she backs off and doesn't respond.

Again, its best if you recognize the dynamic while your working on it in therapy and give her as much space as you possible can. She will not try to reconnect with you again until she feels that it is safe.

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Originally Posted by LH19
S,

Thank you for the honest answers and I think it's great you working on the issues with a therapist.

Ultimately your fear of abandonment caused you to hold on too tight in your relationship which caused you to act desperate and needy which drove her away after 2.25 years. Just reaffirming your fears. ([censored] how that works) Then she goes out for a run and you just by chance run into her and then text her later to go out on a date. She starts to feel like you're suffocating her again so she backs off and doesn't respond.

Again, its best if you recognize the dynamic while your working on it in therapy and give her as much space as you possible can. She will not try to reconnect with you again until she feels that it is safe.


Thank you. Yes, I'm definitely working on exactly this in therapy. It's all interconnected, as you alluded: my fear of abandonment drove my NGS, which drove the lack of boundaries and the lack of trust, which became an impossible hurdle to overcome.

I'm frustrated with it, because it's been an issue all of my life, and it's just in such stark contrast to my professional life. When I read an article on high-value men, I recognize myself in all of them from a professional standpoint (driven, leader of men, etc.) but almost none of them personally. At least not yet!

The sad truth is that it's probably too late to ever convince WAS that I'm a different person now than I was in M -- and I really do believe that I am -- or that what we had can be repaired. Maybe in another life, I guess. But the work I'm doing will pay off down the road; I never, ever want to go through this level of heartbreak ever again.

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Never say never. No one believes it here but time and space can wonders for a person perception. As time goes by people tend to think about the good times more then the bad times.

Peter Crone has some really good videos that touch on abandonment you may want to check out.

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Originally Posted by LH19
S,

You seem like a very successful guy who does well in life. Why are you so obsessed with a woman who has fired as her husband, is on dating websites and didn't acknowledge your birthday?

You don't even have children together. I would really like to hear your answer.

BTW U is right you have NGS big time.


I wanted to come back to this, because specifically in the context of therapy, it's a question I've been asked. I mentioned to my therapist that right as she was getting ready to move out, WAS turned to me without context and said "You know, I don't think of this as a failure. I think of this as a success." And that really stuck out to me.

I do think of it as a failure. The most painful failure of my life. I've been lucky enough to have a lot of success in my life, and a lot of that success has simply boiled down to hard work, perseverance, and resilience. But when I look at the M, all I see are things I'd have done differently. Areas where I feel short, things I wish I knew then that I know now, times in which I took it all for granted. I'm hard on myself because that's what has always worked for me.

I don't know if I'll ever view it as anything but a failure. And it's probably true that the impulse I have to fix things, to make it right, to not forgive myself is keeping me in this loop.


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SteveS ~ I've probably re-read NMMNG 4 times. I learn new insights each time.

I also found myself finally getting in touch with healthy anger in the last year. You know the book... NG's *think* they aren't angry, but they really are, and often in unhealthy ways.

One supplemental thing that helped me was listening to some podcasts by a certain author known for using expletives in the title of his books. He talks about really getting in touch with your core values, then making decisions aligned with those values. Not just paying them lip-service and acting like they are your values. Really meaning it. For some reason, this really helped me detach a lot from the BS and focus on my needs to the point where I had a lot more perspective on my life and what I wanted out of it.

BTW I'm no guru of how to do this. It took my STBXW trying to move away with my kids over false allegations to finally "see the light" so to speak. It's hard when you don't have these obvious flashing red signs. How patient you want to be is up to you, but the current dynamic does sound completely stuck.

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Originally Posted by SteveS
I do think of it as a failure. The most painful failure of my life. I've been lucky enough to have a lot of success in my life, and a lot of that success has simply boiled down to hard work, perseverance, and resilience.

The blessing for all of us is that the pain and stress provide motivation for real change.

Its a rare opportunity in life to find motivation really evaluate who you are and who you want to be.

From my perspective, someone who saves their marriage but goes back to their old habits and resolves themselves to a life of unhappiness is not a success story.

Someone who ends up with a divorce but moves on to healthier and happier relationships has succeeded.

Originally Posted by SteveS
But when I look at the M, all I see are things I'd have done differently. Areas where I feel short, things I wish I knew then that I know now, times in which I took it all for granted. I'm hard on myself because that's what has always worked for me.

I suggested Peter Crone and two things I have learned from him is "What happened happened and it couldn't happen any other way because it didn't" and "you did the best you could with the tools you had at the time".

Take some time and really try to absorb those statements.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Its a rare opportunity in life to find motivation really evaluate who you are and who you want to be.


I certainly agree with you here. If there's one thing keeping my head above water, it's knowing that for as hard as this is, I'm going to come out the other side so much stronger and so much more aware of my problematic relationship patterns. It's no surprise I've had many relationships end up not working out for the same reasons - I never addressed the underlying issues until now.

I'll look up Peter Crone, thank you for the suggestion.


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Originally Posted by unchien
How patient you want to be is up to you, but the current dynamic does sound completely stuck.


It's definitely stuck, there's no maybe about it. I find it really difficult to understand how to be outcome-independent and drop the rope, but not give up. It feels like I'll never be able to detach so long as there's still ambiguity about the situation.

I feel like I'm doing a fairly good job at some of it. I'm NC unless she initiates it and I'm very short and to-the-point when she does. I'm focusing on my own growth, and taking care of myself physically. I'm reading, working with a therapist, and posting here.

But I still have such trouble understanding how to set boundaries. As an example, I'm very frustrated the process we're going through, how she says that she wants legal separation paperwork in place yet does nothing about it. But I feel like if I say "Look, either you complete them by date x or I'm going to do it" is just going to be pressure, ultimatums, and doing the work for her. So I sort of don't really know how to balance out the ideas that I'm learning about.


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SteveS ~

I completely get it. What you are dealing with is the one aspect of DB I don't think I ever grasped (when to decide to walk). It just so happened that my situation got so bad that choosing to D was clearly the best option, hands down.

Originally Posted by SteveS
But I feel like if I say "Look, either you complete them by date x or I'm going to do it" is just going to be pressure, ultimatums, and doing the work for her. So I sort of don't really know how to balance out the ideas that I'm learning about.

You feel that way, or you think SHE will feel that way?

My personal take on DB is that it is a prescription for an acute patient (the LBS) to prevent him/her from doing incredibly stupid and destructive things to their changes of repairing their MR. It is also a prescription to set one on the path towards self-improvement and happiness regardless of the MR outcome.

At first, you follow the protocol strictly. Sandy's 39 rules, to a tee. Over time, things come more naturally. Eventually, hopefully you start to THINK differently. You start to build self-confidence in who you are and who you want to be. You change how you interact with people. You become more self-assured.

What I'm trying to say is, micro-analyzing whether or not these little decisions apply pressure is, in my opinion, a complete waste of your time. You are a year into your situation. If you want the paperwork done, tell her if she doesn't complete them by date X you're going to do it. If you don't care, leave it alone and enjoy your day. It is incredibly liberating to start making these decisions quickly, feeling good about them, ignoring how the other person will react (knowing that you made a decision in accordance with your values), and going on about your day without the NG thought patterns.

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Just wanted to write a quick journal update.

WAW and I are meeting this Tuesday - apparently she has finally gotten the forms ready for the legal separation and wants to go over them with me. If you've been following my bizarre saga, she's held firm that she's been ambivalent and unable to determine whether she wants to work on things or move on until this legal separation is in place, so I guess now is where the rubber meets the road.

I've been in rough shape this week, but in working with my IC and some close friends, I've come to realize that it's because I'm finally moving through the denial phase and progressing into something more realistic. That doesn't necessarily make the pain any less, but it means that I'm growing and getting stronger and approaching things from a healthier mindset. It's alway the darkest before the dawn, or so they say.

So far as Tuesday, I plan to be respectful but fight for what is best for me, and if that causes conflict, so be it. I do not know what insight she thinks she'll gain from this that will help her make a decision one way or another, but that's not my concern. If anything it might work to my advantage to set boundaries, fight for what is fair to me, and stand up for myself.

It's still very tough overall. For as much as I can point to positive things - I'm a young-ish (38), successful man in NYC - I still very much want to work it out and keep fighting for the M I had. That's not up to me, and I'll be fine either way. One day at a time, I guess.

One thing I'm working on with my IC is the idea of failure and blame. As I mentioned before, I very much think of this as a failure and while I don't assign 100% of the blame to myself, I do blame a majority of it on me, and it's very hard to forgive myself right now. If I look at my friends, the ones who are divorced are the ones with obvious problems, the alcoholics and the professionally stunted, and I just don't fall into that category in my mind. I'm embarrassed to talk about my situation, even with friends, because I just never thought I'd be here. What kind of person gets separated after 2 years?

I know it's just negative, go-nowhere thinking, but it's hard to ignore it. I don't go as far as to think that she never loved me, or didn't want to get married to me -- I know she did, full on. But it's embarrassing to think about how quickly things went south. And while I know it's better to move on and forge a new life than to live an unhappy life forever, I do still believe in my heart of hearts that she and I could work it out if we tried. But it's not up to me. And it's hard not to beat myself up for the things I feel I did to cause this.

Well, we'll see how Tuesday goes I guess. I'm 99.99% sure this is the end of the road, and I'm going to have to move on and hit the reset button on my life. I think that's why I'm feeling as down as I am.


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Blame is 50/50, no more no less. You are a good person.

I hope your IC can help you get over feeling like this is a failure or shameful or embarrassing. It happens all the time.

Stand up for yourself. I assure you the NGS tendencies will guide you towards caving to “keep the peace.”

You are not young-ish, you are young. You are successful. I have 3 kids and I’m older than you, and I don’t live in one of the most dynamic cities in the world. And I’m not worried about finding a future relationship at all. You’re gonna be fine.

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Who is this Uchien guy lol?

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Hey Steve,

keep working on your detachment. Quit trying to take all the blame. Be prepared for those separation papers to say something worse than "separation".

Good luck.


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