Wow Grace!!! Well done!!! You handled that perfectly. H has a newfound respect for you at the very least. If he has the strength of character to leave OW, move out on his own and go to therapy, I think there is a very good chance for a MR 2.0. Good for you for not rescuing him. When my XH left for a month in 2014, I welcomed him back with no questions asked because I was so relieved...he declared he was in love with me again and just wanted to come home. In hindsight, that was a HUGE mistake. You are so smart for making him do the work.
Have a great weekend!!! You have earned it you DB Master!!!
As I was reading I was thinking that you should follow up in a few days with H; and look at that you’ve already got that planned.
75 minutes is a long time to remember what happened and what was said, especially from an emotional person. There is a lot there, well done on getting down on paper.
I had a conversation with my XW (W at the time) 5 months post BD. It showed just how mixed up she was. It was astounding to see her - she was a different person. So confused and so sure of herself, both at the same time. Weird. That definitely firmed up that this was all about her.
I see this conversation has many similar aspects. It is so obvious that his confusion and unhappiness is not about you. And he is actually seeing that!
Originally Posted by Grace21
2. He said that even then, and still now, he was not happy. That things with OW are getting bad, real bad, and he has walked out a few times. That it’s getting ready to implode.
Of course. That relationship is built upon sand. We all know it will implode, but to actually see it and hear that he is expecting it. I mean he has walked out a few times?!? From the person he left everything and everyone for. There’s the proof.
Originally Posted by Grace21
4. He asked whether I would consider letting him move into our spare bedroom, with no expectations to (I think he said), “touch or anything”. Just to let him use the room. I said no. I didn’t think that would be a good idea. That he needed to figure things out on his own, live on his own, and we can’t go back to the way things were.
Good for you.
I can empathize with the temptation to consider such a thing. Most wise to say no.
It is encouraging to see he has done some reflecting and says he misses you and sees his role in things. He is speaking the truth, at that moment. Tomorrow he may feel different. Time will tell. His behaviour will show if there is consistency in his feelings, thoughts, and beliefs.
I did chuckle at him not understanding why you would not want to just live as is - to stay in place - as he runs about and figures himself out. I mean, you’re on his insurance and provided for. Lol. The typical, scripted, views of a crisis person.
However, I will say that him questioning it, isn’t typical. That shows some thoughts going on. A person in crisis doesn’t question, they tell you - you should be fine with this. Perhaps some movement is happening.
And speaking of moving, you totally nailed it. His wanting to move away from all this, retire, and start a new life with you. Doesn’t want to face what he’s done; there is a lot to atone for. The plan B, the disappearing for a while - he is teetering on the cusp of awakening. Stay your course, he might follow or he might not.
You are a beacon. Never doubt that! H has to decide what he wants to follow.
Your follow up summary in a couple of days. Some thoughts from my own situation as at one time XW seemed to be almost ready to reach out to me. She turned away and disappeared. However, I did search my soul and found a path I would be comfortable with. I will transpose to your H.
With H actually suggesting that he could move back in. That brings up possibilities doesn’t it? Internal questions that you need to answer.
Are you willing to consider reconciliation? I believe you do have an answer. Your door is open. So, onto my suggestions.
H is teetering. Grasping and still confused. He might run, he might not.
You do what is right for you. Grace you are a beacon. The door is not nailed shut. Let your light shine for him.
- - - -
H
Your idea of moving back home is intriguing. However, for that to possibly happen there needs to be some steps between OW’s house and mine. One of those steps is you living on your own. I want to be very clear: If you are with OW you are not with me.
I am willing to consider seeing if we have any chemistry or spark. But again, if you are with OW or any other GF you are not with me.
Much has changed in these past years. We are not the same people we once were.
I have a full and happy life. And like I said during our conversation, I am not 100% sure I want a divorce. But, I am 100% sure I am not going to be sitting around. I am living my life.
I did enjoy our talk.
Grace
- - - -
He has a big step to make. Ending things with OW.
Everyone needs some hope that their future could be brighter when lost in the darkness. It’s ok to show H the open door. To fan his flickering flame of hope alive. Its not necessarily for reconciliation - it’s for his healing. For with out that, reconciliation is not going to happen.
If/when he ends things with OW, there is much more to say and gently encourage him about.
You keep living your life, and shinning bright. These MLCers do watch us. Your’s has poked out a bit. Keep doing what your doing, and follow your beliefs.
Your path isn’t based upon H.
I am sure you’ve opened those packed away indifferent feelings and looked at them and tried them on. They don’t even hurt anymore. Right? Compassionate indifference? Reflecting upon the conversation - how forgiving are you?
Some of those internal questions and answers. Regardless of what H decides.
I am very proud of you.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Grace, I think you handled yourself so well. Much better than I know I could have done where you are. Definitely with grace and dignity. Yours is like the lab rat for the DB method. You push the button, he responds on cue.
But, I don't see so many airy fairies here. Your guy is a talker. He shares his feelings often and with everyone it seems. But where is the action? I don't see anything concrete in what he said to you. And it doesn't seem that different from what has been going on. But then you know your own story better than any of us ever could.
Is him saying things aren't going well with the OW any different than him likely telling her how awful the marriage was, how he couldn't take it? I see this as SOP for these guys. I've read so many threads here and elsewhere where they say that and it doesn't change.
I think you are seeing fear. Fear that his safety net will be gone. Indecision and confusion. It looks promising, but it is all about him. Again, mine doesn't talk, but I have seen that same fear. The crazy cycling, the inability to let go. Don't know about yours, but with mine that same indecision took him forever to leave and would take him forever to come back if it were in the cards. That same attachment that makes it hard to end things with you is going to make it hard to end things with her.
Don't discount your daughter's feelings here. Mine told me straight up a few weeks ago that she would lose all respect for me if I let him back. If it ever comes to that, make sure your daughter is at least open to you giving him a chance. I think the only thing worse than losing my H would be losing one of my children.
He's doing what he's doing because he is seeing your strength and resolve. My guess is that if he saw you relax and step back, he'd feel safe again and go back to runaway teen.
He's given you a road map here. Will you hear from him in 2 days? Will he accurately communicate what transpired? Will he lay down the next item on the agenda to getting out of where he is. Have a little hope, but do it with your eyes wide open and make him show you ACTIONS.
Long e-mails have been exchanged. Expressed thoughts and feelings are getting very authentic, raw, real. Admissions that demons need to be released and the need to find answers to why he is so unhappy. Clear statements from me that as long as there is OW, there is no us. Acknowledgement from H he understands my position clearly. Admissions of being more unhappy now than he ever was. Goals for therapy expressed. The desire to run, escape is still there.
Demons are hard to battle. Is his armour strong enough? Does he have any armour to wear?
He feels alone. Scared. But he isn't alone. I believe God is working on him. Watching over him. I pray he is ready to receive Him. My prayer warriors are praying too. He has lots of support from people he doesn't even know.
I know I will not run with him. He knows I won't run with him.
He says he was looking for a glimmer of hope in my words, and found it.
Hope can be a powerful, driving force to change.
Actions speak louder than words
Time will bring answers.
I have lots of time while I am living my good life.
I had a dream about H last night. I think that was only the 2nd one since he moved out. It disturbed me a bit.
I guess it’s not too surprising, considering recent events. The first part of the dream had H coming into my bed just to spoon me. That is the way we always went to sleep, up the the last night before he moved out. It jumped right from there to a scenario that made me think to myself (in my dream) that he never really changed. He was still selfish, and I was a fool to think things would be different.
Then I woke up.
I have recently expressed thoughts to close friends of looking like a fool to all the people that know my situation if we ever reconciled. They of course say “who cares what people think”. Some say why not divorce. If it's meant to be, you can always remarry, but then you will have all the financials separate. Most people don't get the idea of standing. The ones that do are devout Christians, but not even all my devout Christians get that.
Anyway, I guess gossip and snickers behind my back wouldn’t hurt me. Maybe I don’t really care what people think. I certainly don’t want that feeling to drive any of my decisions.
*sigh* (and that was a big one)
The financial agreement is weighing heavy on my mind too. I want H to know I’m not just sitting around waiting for him to figure his life out. Waiting for him to leave her so he can come back to me. Will the document change anything?
I am provided for. I want for nothing financially. I am getting on with life. I’m not holding back on anything while he does his thing.
I was very clear in an e-mail to H that there is no going from OWs house to my house. That several things had to happen for that to be a consideration. He expressed clear understanding.
Perhaps the best course is getting some basic agreement signed. Get my car in my name, freeze withdrawals on investments (although he hasn’t taken anything so far), legalize alimony, and perhaps ask for more money to help with the house bills if he wants to keep his name on it.
Anyway, he said he was willing to discuss such a document but didn’t really understand why I needed it unless I wanted to finalize it with a divorce. That he is completely letting me live my life, so what would change? He said he would meet with my any time. That he "LIKED" seeing me.
Hmmmm. Does that make me the OW now?
It’s all too weird.
I’ve got some thinking to do.
But rest assured, while I’m doing my thinking, I’m living my great life.
Would it change anything you have done or are doing if every single person thought you a fool? Its what you want that matters (although again make sure your D is ok if it gets near there) and none of them have walked in your shoes. Hold your head up high and own your decisions.
There is a guy on the net who hawks some materials on MLC (which I wouldn't waste money on). Anywho, he suggests there are stages to a reconciliation/return. Something like this:
1. Chaos--I want nothing to do with you; 2. Being civil; 3. Neutral--thank you for that; 4. Girlfriend--can you help me with something; 5. Testing--I need you to do x,y,z for me right now; 6. Affair behavior--wanna do lunch; 7. Wake up--I'd be crazy to lose her.
Again, who knows if its valid. Seems reasonable. My point being there probably is a stage where you feel like the OW and you have to decide if you will tolerate it and for how long.
I think in terms of your list, what about his financial interest in the OW condo. I hope he is actually on the deed. Don't forget that is a biggie to deal with. Also, I read back through your thread. I had forgotten the number of affairs and the length of the behaviors. I also saw that kml suggested a 12 step sex addiction program (for men). I hope that is a boundary that you will set, because it sounds like he could greatly benefit from it.
The guy who wrote the book on male depression (and I believe is on the approved list here--but just in case shows up as the first hit for me on amazon when I type in "male depression") talks about how many depressed men with dual diagnosis/addictions are often effectively helped through 12 step programs initially. It seems like with yours, this could be a big help.
It took a long time to get here for both of you. You have lots of life and time in front of you. Take it nice and slow and make sure that he is going to exhibit positive trends and isn't just engaging in a game of brinksmanship because he sees the barrel of the gun pointing at him on the divorce.
Here are the books that I recommended many years ago on depression:
Depression:
The Depression Source Book by Brian P. Quinn, C.S.W., Ph.D. Understanding Depression by Raymond DePaul, Jr., M.D. The Secret Strength of Depression by Frederic Flac I Don't Want To Talk About It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression by Terrence Real Unmasking Male Depression by Archibald Hart The Pain Behind The Mask: Overcoming Masculine Depression by John Lynch, Christopher T. Kilmarting The Noonday Demon, An Atlas of Depression by Andrew Solomon Unholy Ghosts, Writers on Depression by Nell Casey Depression, Questions You Have...Answers You Need by Sandra Salmans
If you have additional books to add to our growing list, please add them to the resource thread. They do come in handy and are a quick reference for those who need some recommended reading material.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Thanks Job, the book I was referring to and highly recommend is Terrence Real, I Don't Want to Talk About It. Very enlightening and really shows that we are all just dealing with depression here.
