Divorce because I betrayed her trust - PART 7

[DaB35]

Previous threads:

Part 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2861875#Post2861875

Part 2
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2863376#Post2863376

Part 3:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2864752&page=1

Part 4:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2867858#Post2867858

Part 5:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2870744&page=1

Part 6:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2873339&page=1

[DaB35]

Week off - time for a little update before I need to start a new thread.

House sale still going on. Lots of things outstanding apparently; the conveyancers the estate agents assigned us are very slow. Was a bit rich then to receive an email from the estate agents advising me that there are still "queries with the buyers solicitors"! I put them straight saying that the conveyancers are very slow to respond and when I do get info it is very limited which means I have to go back to them again.

Boiler was meant to be serviced today. Originally paid for it in September. Company postponed it to November, then suddenly postponed it to today (!). I definitely texted W about it in Nov/Dec time. Unfortunately, now I don't have a smartphone, my phone only stores a few texts and so I can't prove when I sent it. I sent W a text yesterday to remind her.
She replied "Right, I'm out. Can you come up and let them in?"

I thought - 'nope'! No way am I making a two hour round trip to come to the house (during rush hour) to let in an engineer who may not turn up til midday. I can't get time off work that quickly. I just replied:
"No it's too short notice to get time off work. Are you at the house any other set times during the week? I will ask them to reschedule."
Then she responded - "Well I need way more advance notice. I can't stop things at the drop of a hat. I literally don't go to the house anymore. I work in <town> now. Also I don't see why we need the boiler serviced anyway. The house is nearly sold so it makes no difference."

I really didn't want to argue by saying 'well I did text you about it.' I couldn't be bothered to get annoyed by that. So I took a deep breath, and replied:
"We paid for it in September as that's when it was due. They just kept postponing it. Not an issue. I'll ask them to rebook it. I understand that you're busy and finding free time is difficult. Have a good evening."

I know I probably shouldn't have put that last bit. However, I felt I should come across as polite and just upbeat really. Not argumentative.

As an aside, I was able to go online and rebook it to mid-March, by which time the house won't be ours anyway, so no problem. Took literally 30 seconds. Should I text W to simply say "Rebooked it for mid-March so all sorted." ??


Other news - great gym progress.
Feeling very confident.
Lots of people are telling me (and my family) how well I look.
A couple more people have said "her loss!" to me. Have a good PMA and it seems to be sustained rather than intermittent.

[DaB35]

Had a chat with my mum Sunday evening about the situation. She is upset that W has basically cut her, my dad and my sister out of her life. My sister really worked hard at trying to speak to her and offering to help etc. W has just ignored them.

W's mum and my mum had a phone conversation before Xmas. W's mum said "She never tells me anything. She keeps everything to her chest and only talks to her sister about things." She was apparently sorry to my mum that W hadn't spoken to her.

My parents have done lots for W; given her money, bought her tools and things for her business, and really helped us both out at the house. They contributed £10k towards our house deposit too. W's parents have not helped at all with the house. I've mentioned in a much earlier post that W's parents are totally inconsistent with how they show affection to each of their 3 children. My parents are totally fair and equal between myself and my sister; there isn't any question.

Example - W's parents could have easily contributed towards our deposit (they are quite rich), meaning we'd have been paying lower mortgage payments. They didn't. W was always trying to justify this: "Well, they did pay for our wedding, and my dad bought this machine for my business." Yet they gave W's brother £15k towards his house deposit without question, and yet gave nothing to W's sister when she was building her own house.
I just find it a strange dynamic; W seems convinced that her family is very close, yet they really are not. W’s brother never contacts anyone; she has to. She complains that “If I never contacted [brother] we’d never see him.” Sister lives 300 miles away. Parents live 200 miles away.

My mum and I were talking about control. All of W's past boyfriends were rather aggressive, bullish, and they argued a lot. She meets me, and I'm passive, less confrontational. She grew up in quite a loud family environment, and as the youngest of 3, she was always seemingly fighting to be heard. She’s therefore not afraid to speak her mind and wear her heart on her sleeve. The problem was I was too far the other way, and others would comment, “Well you [W] clearly wear the trousers in that relationship.” This annoyed W.

I admit I was way too passive in the R and M. I never argued, in any R I’ve been in. I wanted to, but was afraid of confronting W. She has a lot of issues and self-esteem problems etc., and is always quick to argue her point. I was afraid of upsetting her by telling her she’d upset me, or by telling her I had problems too when hers’ weren’t resolved.


Her sister has also had virtually no control in her early adult life. She met her H at 17, married at 23, and by 30 she had 3 kids. She has followed him around the country with his job, moving further and further north. Their moving around is entirely due to her H changing jobs. She’s been a mum for 7-8 years, not really worked. She felt that she hasn’t achieved much. She ran a very successful confectionery business for a few years – won awards and everything – but gave it up because she was ‘bored’. She badgered her parents to contribute to help her buy a musical instrument that she used to play, and she got it, but never plays it. She doesn’t do anything with it, or tries to make any money from the talent she clearly has. Only her eldest daughter learns it now.

W’s sister’s H is the son of a very rich father. She wants a ‘London’ lifestyle. She wants to be able to swan about in coffee shops, buying fancy designer clothes and looking glamorous etc. etc. There’s a show in the UK called Made In Chelsea – people in the UK will know about it. She wants that lifestyle and presumably feels frustrated that she can’t have that.

As a result, I think this is why W’s sister is constantly telling her what to do. What to wear, eat, where to live, what to buy for her house, etc. This may be guilt on her sister’s part – she was horrible to W when they were younger. W’s sister would fight her and be a bit violent with her, and introduce her to her friends as “her other brother” as W was a tomboy and had shortish hair. Surely that’s contributed to W’s self-esteem issues. She and her sister almost laugh it off now, which just doesn’t seem healthy to me. W’s sister has also said horrible things about W’s brother’s wife too – front of me, W and W’s mum – and nobody in W’s family seems to pick her up on this. Her sister is a very aggressive person; I believe she has an anger problem.

W's parents also married at 18. We married when she was 29. It was a huge issue for her to marry before she turned 30. It was a really important thing for her; she'd bring it up frequently. Perhaps she felt some pressure as a result from her parents/sister marrying at much younger ages than her.

I do feel sad for W. At the same time though, I’m frustrated that she switched off her love for me very quickly. A matter of weeks. After 8 years, she chucked it all away and had no desire to put the work in. Yes I was in the wrong, but she is not perfect either.


My view on this whole thing is that I could have wallowed and been depressed and made myself ill and not got better. I did the total opposite of that. That was my main 180. Sought help with IC, and picked myself up. It’s worked. The fact that so many people are commenting on how happy I look is helping. I'm sad that whenever I felt stressed/upset during the M or R, I never had the courage to tell W about it all.

I want to be in that situation where she turns back, looks at me and sees a very confident, self-sufficient man who has sorted himself out extensively and doing good things with his life.

Long post over. Thanks for getting to the end!

[AnotherStander]

She replied "Right, I'm out. Can you come up and let them in?"

I thought - 'nope'! No way am I making a two hour round trip to come to the house (during rush hour) to let in an engineer who may not turn up til midday. I can't get time off work that quickly. I just replied:
"No it's too short notice to get time off work. Are you at the house any other set times during the week? I will ask them to reschedule."
Then she responded - "Well I need way more advance notice.

So she needs advanced notice. But she expects you to drop everything and drive 2 hours one way, LOL! Oh the irony.

"We paid for it in September as that's when it was due. They just kept postponing it. Not an issue. I'll ask them to rebook it. I understand that you're busy and finding free time is difficult. Have a good evening."

I know I probably shouldn't have put that last bit. However, I felt I should come across as polite and just upbeat really. Not argumentative.

I agree with you about dropping the last two lines. Just stick to business.

As an aside, I was able to go online and rebook it to mid-March, by which time the house won't be ours anyway, so no problem. Took literally 30 seconds. Should I text W to simply say "Rebooked it for mid-March so all sorted." ??

No, I wouldn't bother. If she asks about it then you can tell her.

Had a chat with my mum Sunday evening about the situation. She is upset that W has basically cut her, my dad and my sister out of her life. My sister really worked hard at trying to speak to her and offering to help etc. W has just ignored them.

Validate your sister and mom. "It sounds like this is very difficult for you, I am sorry she's treating you this way." This is just a normal part of the fallout of these situations. The WAS hurts a LOT of people, not just their spouse.

My parents have done lots for W; given her money, bought her tools and things for her business, and really helped us both out at the house. They contributed £10k towards our house deposit too. W's parents have not helped at all with the house. I've mentioned in a much earlier post that W's parents are totally inconsistent with how they show affection to each of their 3 children. My parents are totally fair and equal between myself and my sister; there isn't any question.

Example - W's parents could have easily contributed towards our deposit (they are quite rich), meaning we'd have been paying lower mortgage payments. They didn't.

Good for them! Have you ever read The Millionaire Next Door? It gets into these issues with parents giving money to their kids, who in turn become dependent upon it and develop an entitlement mentality. People don't get rich by giving money away. Offspring need to learn to support themselves.

W was always trying to justify this: "Well, they did pay for our wedding, and my dad bought this machine for my business." Yet they gave W's brother £15k towards his house deposit without question, and yet gave nothing to W's sister when she was building her own house.

Who cares. That was very generous of them to pay for the wedding and buy the machine. VERY generous. What they give another child is between them and that child.

I just find it a strange dynamic; W seems convinced that her family is very close, yet they really are not. W’s brother never contacts anyone; she has to. She complains that “If I never contacted [brother] we’d never see him.” Sister lives 300 miles away. Parents live 200 miles away.

You seem to devote a lot of brainpower to contemplating your estranged W's family situation. It doesn't matter, does it? We all have out share of skeletons in the closet.

All of W's past boyfriends were rather aggressive, bullish, and they argued a lot. She meets me, and I'm passive, less confrontational. She grew up in quite a loud family environment, and as the youngest of 3, she was always seemingly fighting to be heard. She’s therefore not afraid to speak her mind and wear her heart on her sleeve. The problem was I was too far the other way, and others would comment, “Well you [W] clearly wear the trousers in that relationship.” This annoyed W.

I admit I was way too passive in the R and M. I never argued, in any R I’ve been in. I wanted to, but was afraid of confronting W. She has a lot of issues and self-esteem problems etc., and is always quick to argue her point. I was afraid of upsetting her by telling her she’d upset me, or by telling her I had problems too when hers’ weren’t resolved.

Her sister has also had virtually no control in her early adult life. She met her H at 17, married at 23, and by 30 she had 3 kids. She has followed him around the country with his job, moving further and further north. Their moving around is entirely due to her H changing jobs. She’s been a mum for 7-8 years, not really worked. She felt that she hasn’t achieved much. She ran a very successful confectionery business for a few years – won awards and everything – but gave it up because she was ‘bored’. She badgered her parents to contribute to help her buy a musical instrument that she used to play, and she got it, but never plays it. She doesn’t do anything with it, or tries to make any money from the talent she clearly has. Only her eldest daughter learns it now.

W’s sister’s H is the son of a very rich father. She wants a ‘London’ lifestyle. She wants to be able to swan about in coffee shops, buying fancy designer clothes and looking glamorous etc. etc. There’s a show in the UK called Made In Chelsea – people in the UK will know about it. She wants that lifestyle and presumably feels frustrated that she can’t have that.

As a result, I think this is why W’s sister is constantly telling her what to do. What to wear, eat, where to live, what to buy for her house, etc. This may be guilt on her sister’s part – she was horrible to W when they were younger. W’s sister would fight her and be a bit violent with her, and introduce her to her friends as “her other brother” as W was a tomboy and had shortish hair. Surely that’s contributed to W’s self-esteem issues. She and her sister almost laugh it off now, which just doesn’t seem healthy to me. W’s sister has also said horrible things about W’s brother’s wife too – front of me, W and W’s mum – and nobody in W’s family seems to pick her up on this. Her sister is a very aggressive person; I believe she has an anger problem.

W's parents also married at 18. We married when she was 29. It was a huge issue for her to marry before she turned 30. It was a really important thing for her; she'd bring it up frequently. Perhaps she felt some pressure as a result from her parents/sister marrying at much younger ages than her.

I do feel sad for W. At the same time though, I’m frustrated that she switched off her love for me very quickly. A matter of weeks. After 8 years, she chucked it all away and had no desire to put the work in. Yes I was in the wrong, but she is not perfect either.

^^^WHAT IN THE WORLD IS ALL THAT MESS RIGHT THERE????^^^ Let's hear about your GAL and detachment. None of that stuff matters one bit except to your W, and apparently it doesn't bother her any. And even if it does- her circus, her monkeys.

I want to be in that situation where she turns back, looks at me and sees a very confident, self-sufficient man who has sorted himself out extensively and doing good things with his life.

Yes exactly!

[DaB35]

Thanks AS

On re-reading it, I realise how that looked! My sister and I are definitely not the kind of kids who sit about expecting money from parents to get by. They only give it if and when required for serious situations, and it's only after a lot of discussion, plus 99% of the time we pay them back anyway unless they've specifically said it's a gift (those cases are very infrequent). It's more about how W would point out the disparity of her parents and her family, and I saw that too, but then she would choose to not do anything about it. I agree it doesn't matter, and I shouldn't devote too much brain power to it anymore.

You're right it is quite a mess! I was journaling - just to get it out of me.

The GALing is continuing. I went to the gym every day for the second week in a row, 45-60mins each time. I feel more confident and happy with myself when I look in the mirror.

[AnotherStander]

The GALing is continuing. I went to the gym every day for the second week in a row, 45-60mins each time. I feel more confident and happy with myself when I look in the mirror.

Awesome!! That's the beauty of getting in shape, it makes you feel better about yourself, and that actually pays more dividends than just trying to look better to others

[DaB35]

Agreed. Very valuable thing to do. I look forward to going now!

I feel like I am AMOAFWL now. There are many things I've changed about myself and I have worked hard at all this. It's worked and that's made it easier for me to continue doing it.

There will be a time soon when we need to meet at the house to clear stuff and decide final bits like who gets what from the kitchen, shed, etc. (in other words, lots of minor items that weren't worth putting on the finance order). Probably soon. I know that I will be confident and positive when it happens. Previously I was worrying about how I might come across, but now I think I'm going to just do it and be content.

[DaB35]

Had a good chat up with a close friend (also divorced). Had a long talk about his plans to become self-employed and moeny and things. He asked how I was and I updated him on things. Didn't go into huge amount of detail but mentioned what I've been up to with the gym and work mainly.

He said W 'hates me'. I didn't really dwell on that. I did talk about how I felt obliged to be perfect and always do what I could to please her, even if it made me unhappy. He said he could relate to that. His new GF is very chilled by comparison and he can talk to her about anything, and he says he "knew what I didn't want, and that really helps us get along."

He said W is "all over the place" and that "she really needs therapy." Interesting.

I had a big email from a L when I got in just now - about the finance order. 8 attachments! Cannot be bothered to look through them tonight. I'll do it tomorrow. W has to do more than me as she started the divorce. She REALLY hates filling in forms, so it'll be nice to pass it on to her when I just have to put my signature in a few places and that's it!

[DaB35]

Had a text from W today.

"Hi I've had a call from L, apparently she's been trying to contact you to get <small personal questions re house sale> answered. Can you make sure you call them in your lunch break today please, it literally takes only 5 mins, I did it weeks ago!! Also they haven't been contacted by <housing company> yet and you they need you to instruct them that <Ls> are working for us and they need to send the paperwork over to them! Make sure you call them ASAP please. I know your* at work but you can spare 10 mins over lunch I'm sure."

*She never knew the difference between you're and your correctly! It's like Ross and Rachel in Friends - "Y-O-U-R means your!"

Couple of things:
- I sent the details over to the housing company at the end of December. I haven't been chased for it from the Ls since. I CCd W in that email. She's clearly forgotten.
- I've been calling the Ls for weeks but never get through when I do ring them, or if I do the one I need to speak to is not available. I can't be on hold and when I've left a message they always call me back when I can't answer.

I called them at lunch. Yes it did take 5 minutes. So that's done.

I've also forwarded my email again to the housing people.

How do I respond to W? Her tone was a bit annoyed as you can see. I'm sure she is probably bad-mouthing me to all and sundry who'll listen to her. Anyway, how do I respond?

How about -
"Hi W, details were sent to <housing company> on <date in December>. I CC-d you in on that. I've reminded them again and left a message."

I was not going to mention that I've done the small questions from the L.

[joejoe1]

D,

I will simply say. "In response to your email, all actions are completed". No need to say more than that.

Joejoe

[DaB35]

Thanks Joejoe, I've just replied:

"Hi W. All that info has been sent on. I've been advised that I have no further action to take."

I would have tried to defend the fact that I've been trying to call L in the evening but they're never in, then after I've left them a message they keep ringing me at work when I can't answer. Glad I didn't.

[ovrrnbw]

Agreed. Very valuable thing to do. I look forward to going now!

I feel like I am AMOAFWL now. There are many things I've changed about myself and I have worked hard at all this. It's worked and that's made it easier for me to continue doing it.

There will be a time soon when we need to meet at the house to clear stuff and decide final bits like who gets what from the kitchen, shed, etc. (in other words, lots of minor items that weren't worth putting on the finance order). Probably soon. I know that I will be confident and positive when it happens. Previously I was worrying about how I might come across, but now I think I'm going to just do it and be content.

I stay up to date on a guy named Mike Posner who is pretty cool. He walked across America last year, got bit by a venomous snake, and is climbing mountains now. Your post reminded of his saying:

KEEP GOING!

[DaB35]

W texted again this morning saying "Don't forget to <answer small Qs from L>. It'll really ease my stress for the day."

I already did it yesterday. She's forgotten again, or didn't read my response yesterday properly.
I simply replied "Morning. Already taken care of." I hesitated to add anything further, but resisted.

No response.

So frustrating that she doesn't read what I say. She's probably telling her friends and family that I'm deliberately stalling the sale or something similar.

[AnotherStander]

He said W 'hates me'. I didn't really dwell on that.

This is not at all unusual. My XW "hated" me for a while too. Then you remove yourself from the equation, be the best you that you can be, leave them alone, and guess what they are still angry but suddenly they realize it's not because of you because you're long gone, and THAT is when they start working on themselves. "I blamed him for so long but now he's gone and I'm still mad and angry and upset... what is REALLY causing this?"

He said W is "all over the place" and that "she really needs therapy." Interesting.

That shouldn't surprise you!

How do I respond to W? Her tone was a bit annoyed as you can see. I'm sure she is probably bad-mouthing me to all and sundry who'll listen to her. Anyway, how do I respond?

How about -
"Hi W, details were sent to <housing company> on <date in December>. I CC-d you in on that. I've reminded them again and left a message."

That would be perfect. She gets emotional, you remain all business. Stick to facts. Don't validate her emotional outbursts and threats.

W texted again this morning saying "Don't forget to <answer small Qs from L>. It'll really ease my stress for the day."

I already did it yesterday. She's forgotten again, or didn't read my response yesterday properly.
I simply replied "Morning. Already taken care of." I hesitated to add anything further, but resisted.

Good.

So frustrating that she doesn't read what I say. She's probably telling her friends and family that I'm deliberately stalling the sale or something similar.

Don't waste time worrying about what you think she might be saying to others. First, you don't know that she's saying those things. Second, even if she is it doesn't matter because you are the lighthouse. She can tell people the lighthouse is a dump and it doesn't work and it's falling apart, and it's awful and horrible and blah blah blah but then people look and what do they see? The lighthouse standing tall with a nice coat of paint and shining bright as ever if not even brighter. You don't need to explain yourself, when you are the lighthouse then that is enough. Let her make a fool of herself, she doesn't need your help or intervention for that

[DaB35]

Thanks AS.

I will keep being the lighthouse in the background whilst still continuing on my own path.

I think this is the crucial thing. When I saw him earlier this week, my friend said, "You're looking well, and it sounds like things are working out for you." I agreed. I am pleased that I'm projecting that confidence and more and more people are picking up on it.

The lighthouse is quite frankly a show home right now - an energy efficient one at that!!

[Traveler]

Hey DaB35, glad you're hanging in there, gyming, and have a good head on your shoulders. Your story has definitely nudged me to be more honest about a certain topic. When my new lady asked if I'd ever watched you-know-what, I was like "YES! I actually pulled videos up for a new technique I'd like to try with you once we get intimate." That triggered questions which I left at, "Maybe you'll find out." She was screening me ("Is he an addict?!") and I was screening her ("Is she looking for a unicorn guy who never does?!")

[DaB35]

Hi CW - haha bet that woke her up!

It's funny - I was thinking about this the other day and just think how strange it is that in 6 months I've addressed a lot of the issues that contributed to my failings in the M and just moved away from many of those problems. It's been hard work, but I put the work in. I'm sad that W felt she couldn't be bothered to try and watch me make these changes. I just needed the right type of help (i.e. IC)

Having said that, I did lie to her. I told her - behind a well of shame - that there was no more to reveal to her. Then she discovered everything all at once, a year later. I know that would have been devastating for her. I have total remorse for that. Rather than sit around feeling sorry for myself though, I've taken this chance to grow and become a better person. Yet another person at the weekend said how well I look considering everything, that I'm looking after myself which is the right thing to do.

Right now, I'm happy with my progress and know that there is no way I'd put myself in the same position. I know now to not feel like I can't be vulnerable. It's ok to be vulnerable.

I will still be a lighthouse, and I will have my picnic outside the castle.

[DS9]

Good on you Dan!

You've really come a long way these past few months mate. Just keep being mindful of XW sucking you in with the 'it'll ease my stress' comments, as these types of comments are designed to get you hooked back into helping her.

I turned a corner recently with my XW and her sucking vortex of requests.

Keep DBing, being the lighthouse, enjoying the picnic, getting pumped and smashing those castanets.

I'm praying for you mate that she'll feel how so much has changed and come back to you. You know I've heard about recon stories (not from here) where the LBS changed so much that the energy or vibe they gave was somehow communicated to the WAW, and they changed their feelings too. Kind of like a sixth sense. So take heart in that, becuase she may be feeling you even though you've not seen each other for so long.

Go Dan!

[DaB35]

Thanks DS - appreciate the support.

Yes I did take note of that, "It'll make me feel better" type of comment. I suspect there'll be more coming as the D finalises (probably another month or so to go) and the house sale completes (probably in the next fortnight or so).

I'm not going to stop DBing as it's working, and I've been reaping rewards from it in other aspects of my life away from Rs.

I have heard of recon stories too. I'm not putting all my bets on that, but AS said to me earlier, "Hope is yours for as long as you want it." I like that way of looking at it. As a LBS I will simply continue to make progress, grow etc., and I know that W will get to hear about all my changes somehow. Then she'll wonder what she chucked away. I'm content in the knowledge that she won't find anyone like me again, and even more so now I've improved lots about me!

[ovrrnbw]

Nice post. Her seeing you walk your own path may well bring her back one day, but you may be a new person by then.

KEEP GOING!

[DaB35]

Hi All - little bit of advice needed.

I need to fill in forms for the finance order. I now understand what I have to do; the L has replied to my long email of questions telling me which bits to ignore, what to add, what to change if necessary (on anything relating to me) etc.

Everything needs to be printed out and signed by hand, and posted off to them with a cheque (some Ls are seemingly not in the 21st Century still!).

Should I print out everything, plus print the guidelines, fill in my bits, then post them to W to finish (or leave them at the house next time I'm there)? Am I right in feeling that W should be the one sending the paperwork off and cheque - D was her idea.

I don't want to resort to sticking post-it notes or page marker tabs on each page saying "sign here", "ignore this bit", "put your up to date credit card and pension balances here", telling W exactly what to do. I don't want to write the cheque for her either.
She needs to get used to me not stepping in to help her - so how do I do this in such a way that is not passive-aggressive, but just pleasant and non-confrontational?

[LH19]

D,

This is one of the areas when I don't get caught up in the philophy of let them do the "heavy lifting". When you get to this point you are going to get D'd so do what's best and easiest for you. It's not your job to teach her lessons. Do what you need to do get this over with and move on with your life.

[DaB35]

Hi All, small update.

I sent off the paperwork in the post on Friday evening. W will probably get it today.
I printed the guidelines/helpsheet and put everything in order so she shouldn't have trouble filling in the right bits.

We need to send the L certain certificates relating to the house when it was built. I've asked the local authority for some, but one is (I'm positive) in the house still. I left a load of paperwork in my study in case the buyers/estate agents wanted to look at them. W says she looked 'thoroughly' and couldn't find it. I don't have it at my parents' house, so I think W just hasn't looked properly. I'm waiting for her to demand I go to the house this week. I am going on Saturday with my sister to get a few things anyway, but I don't intend to take time out of my week to go up before then. I'm not worrying too much; I'll just be honest and say, "I can't go up til Saturday" and leave it at that. I won't explain why.

One query - assuming we see each other soon (to sort out the remaining bits and bobs in the house that are too small to go on the official finance order), let's say we end up having a conversation like below (with W instigating, not me), which gives me a chance to offer validating statements:

W - "[states a feeling]."
Me - "OK it seems like you're feeling [x] about [y], is that right?"
W - "Yes...[talks some more]"
Me - "Right, that must be very [emotion] for you."
W - "So you agree [y]?"

What do I respond with? I thought validating was not about agreeing with the thing, just acknowledging how they feel about the thing.

[LH19]

W: This D is a slow process
D: you sound frustrated. Is that how you feel?
W: yes that is exactly how how I feel. Don't you agree?
D: yes it was a very slow process or no i understand why you would feel that way but I actually think it moved very quickly

Doesn't matter if you agree with her or not you understood how she felt about it.

[DaB35]

Little update on things

Gym - now up to 60kg on abs machine, 80kg on leg press, 35kg on Pecs, 45kg on leg extension and low row.
Seeing a more obvious difference now. Massive confidence boost.

Had a call from property L. Completion on house in a couple of weeks. This is it.
Need to finalise the storage lock up I've reserved and check my stuff will all fit. W said I could have a few things that she can't be bothered to remove; thought I might as well take them then I don't have to buy replacements later.

I've moved forward a significant amount, but still sad W threw this all away. I'm going to the house on Saturday with my sister, to take a few more valuables back. She still believes W has been led to do this, and is upset that after reaching out to her offering help, W has totally ignored her. I have validated my sister when she's told me this. She also says "She thought leaving you and selling up was the easy option. I don't know why she thought that - it's actually the most difficult option, as neither of you have a place to live and you have to start again. Why does she think that's easy?"

My sister mentioned that she's had problems with her H recently (trust and non-comms, no EA or PA evidence though). She said "I wouldn't leave him just because I was unhappy or for one thing, only if there was violence or something very serious like if he got another girl pregnant and kept it from me. I've put far too much effort into the house to throw all that away and I don't want to undo all that work." We've been talking a lot recently, which is good.

I wish W was more like her, but she's more "You did something wrong, that's it, it's over, no conversation."
I never understood this sentiment - it's very commonplace now - in songs, soap operas, films etc. Wrong the person you love, and people are more frequently being shown the solution of: "This was wrong, but I'm not going to bother weighing up all the good things, even though there are way more of them. They don't matter now - I'm just going to end it."
I try not to dwell on this but it's hard sometimes.

I know that I have to keep at that picnic and let the lighthouse keep shining and keep it in perfect condition. That way, when W, her family, or her friends turn back, they'll see Dan 2.0.

[DS9]

Hey Dan,

I hope settlement goes smooth from here. I found it helpful to do a list of stuff I needed to do in the lead to moving out.

The memories hurt, but it'll be ok mate.

I think your XW also puts personal happiness at all cost first, in contrast to your sister. It's a selfish mindset, but look around and everywhere is spruiking finding your personal happiness, you dont need a man, and divorce is ok.

Keep that lighthouse shining mate.

Great effort on the gym front too.

Cheers DS

[DaB35]

Hi DS

Yes I've started a list - men like lists!

I agree that W has has been putting herself first above the M/R, and certainly has been told this by others. As you say, the message is being reinforced and planted in people's minds everywhere: when things get tough, quit and run away rather than braving the problem.

This is not to say I have not been selfish either. I have, in that I kept my problems hidden, didn't open up, and just did the NGS thing of doing the same thing unchanged for years and simply expecting it to work out by itself without any significant effort on my part. Much like the cheeseless tunnel analogy in DR.

However, one of my 180s has been to address this. IC took 6 months and we did lots of in depth analysis about how I was brought up, learned behaivour, how I interact with others/how I think they view me, past R dynamics, my M, etc. Lots of light bulbs were switched on towards the end of last year, which explained a lot.

Main weakness was feeling that I had to be perfect all the time, having grown up feeling that way, and not be seen to be fallible or doing things wrong. So when I did do things wrong, W would really be angry with me (even minor things) as if I'd totally let her down. I felt I couldn't tell W my problems or the fact that I disliked how some of her friends or family would treat her. She just put up with it, or would moan but then stop talking about it quickly.
Unfortunately I knew nothing of validation so looking back I don't think I helped much at all.

My IC made me realise I had been very stressed and depressed. Depressed because I hadn't really achieved my main aspirations and had to 'settle' for a job in a sector that I didn't have passion for like my other creative role. Felt I'd let everyone down. Felt I wasn't making as much money as the other men in W's family (they're all richer and more scientifically minded). Jealousy I guess. How silly. Always felt that her parents felt I wasn't pushing myself; I don't think that's right because they were always very pleasant to me and were very kind; never had any problems with in-laws.

My online addiction had manifested itself as a kind of reaction to that - something so far removed from who I really am as a person that it allowed me to conceal the issue further. I'd feel negative, suppress the emotions, they built up, I retreat into the addiction world, temporary release from stress/depression, then go back to normal life This is 'Reconstitution' as my IC put it, which can be very quick or very slow depending on the person. For me it was very quick.

Less of an issue now - I love my job, my coworkers are nice people, and my boss constantly praises me, so I have loyalty there. Plus I still make time for my creative stuff in the evenings and weekends, so I get the best of both worlds.

I had not really felt stress before so didn't know what it really was, because I wasn't outwardly showing everyone I was stressed. But it showed itself in other ways - I had severe psoriasis on my scalp for the last 5/6 years, some of my stubble hair fell out (alopecia), and then grew back a long time later, this time with white hairs. Another feature was I became introverted to an even greater degree, not disclosing my thoughts or worries to W, my family or friends for years (W would always say, "You don't say any words!" and say this in front of others when we were out, which upset me). As my W was so open about her problems to all and sundry, I felt I could't tell her I had problems too as that would stress her out even more! Now I think how stupid I was to have those thoughts!

Weirdly, since I've done IC and been going to the gym and GALing, my psoriasis has all but gone, and my stubble alopecia is no more! My body image is much better and my skin looks good with my grooming 'routine' - simple ingredients. Tip - rubbing a few drops of rosehip oil into the face every morning is great!

Lots of rambling thoughts here. I might have repeated some of this in earlier threads, but good to boil it down further and be able to move forward with a greater degree of confidence.

The lighthouse has been repainted and upgraded for sure. The picnic is delicious right now!

[DaB35]

Got back from the house with my sister. We took a few more items of mine away.

It was the first time I'd been there since mid-December. My parents' and sister's Xmas cards were still on the dining table when we got in.

W has started to pack up her stuff - her desk and bookcase are dismantled; clothes all in suitcases, she's taken all the pictures down off the walls, rolled up the rug, started boxing up/bubble-wrapping crockery. I also noticed that she had put all the cards she gave me (Valentines/Birthday etc) in a pile on the desk in my study. She has kept all the cards I gave her in her room however. I was expecting her to have thrown them away.

I felt sad. It was a real physical representation of the fact that she is a WAW, D is almost done, and has fired me as H.

I got the stuff I needed and sister helped me look for paperwork to do with the sale. She said "Why is she giving this all up? Such a waste." On the way there she told me about how her friends have had problems with their Hs. One had a gambling problem and remortgaged their house, another was swindled out of their share in a company and lost money but hid that from his W out of shame, another has a lazy H who won't do anything with their 2nd child, etc. She said "They've said what you did is so tame in comparison to all that. Doesn't she realise that people go through lots together, it's not 100% perfect all the time, and that you need to take a step back at the bigger picture, then you work at it. And, all of those couples are stronger now because they talk more."


I will book a day off work this week and go up again with my family to box up my things (paperwork mainly, but also dismantle the wardrobe I'm taking, take shelves down and touch up the paint on the wall when they're down etc.).

Advice needed:

I need to arrange with W to go through final items. Was thinking of emailing this:
"Hi W. Just thinking that we need to finalise the sharing of the smaller items that aren't on the asset list. I'm thinking of the bedding and towels, stuff in the shed, kitchen items, and the *soft toys. I was thinking of Sunday (16th) if that works for you."

Is that OK?

*W and I had a collection of Jellycat toys, I'd say around 20. They were a lovely part of our R and M. I would sometimes buy one as a Valentine's gift or if she was feeling glum about something. I was good at 'animating them' by moving their arms/heads, and she'd always laugh without fail. She even gave them all personalities and backstories! When we were messing about with them and making each other laugh, it was one of the times when I forgot about all my issues and problems, and was just 'present'. Things like that I really miss. They are all currently stuffed into the top of a wardrobe in the bedroom. They haven't been moved since around September I think. They brought so much joy to us. I know they're just toys but it meant something to us. Every couple has their own little quirks and silly things they do, and that was one of ours.


So, let's say she agrees and we meet in a week's time. I'm thinking - go there looking good and confident (which is becoming more natural for me now), haircut, cologne, very presentable.
How do I act - bright and breezy? Quietly confident and calm? Pleasant and non-emotional?

[DaB35]

House completion will be in a few weeks.

L rang me Friday, left message asking if 17th Feb is fine! Way too short notice. Neither of us have time to clear out our stuff. They're terrible!

I will arrange the lock up this week. My parents have said they'll go halves on a larger unit as they're starting some home improvements and will take advantage of the space. Gives them a chacne to sort through stuff in their house. The furniture I'm kepping plus my other items will go in there. I'll then take a day off work Friday, and go up to the house with my parents to box as many of my things up as I can.

A week should be enough time.

Haven't emailed W yet about the final bits and bobs we haven't decided on.

One thing I noticed regarding the cards I had sent W over the years; she'd left them at the top of the pile (i.e. very conspicous) of stuff she'd put in my study. The cards I'd sent her are in a box in her room. I genuinely thought she'd throw them away. I'm probably searching for meaning for something that isn't there, but thought it odd how she'd leave it there visible, rather than perhaps hide it amongst paperwokr or DVDs or something.

Any advice/thoughts on my longer posts above would be really helpful as I'd appreciate any insight (or 2x4s, or 4x8s!).

[Traveler]

Hi DaB35,

Is arranging meeting to divide the little things necessary? In my case, I left them to my ex-wife in exchange for a proposed dollar amount at closing. You could also propose a no-cash you take X and she takes Y. She can, of course, always come back with a counter-proposal. Sounds like the jellcats are really important to you.

This meeting sounds contrived. Is your point to try to make her see your changes?

[DaB35]

I hadn't thought of that CW, thanks for pointing that out.

Yes I suppose I could ask "What'll we do about xyz - how about [suggestion]?" and see what she says. It may be that she says "OK, you take this, I'll take that" and we don't have to see each other. It's not essential.

She's like a ghost now.

[DaB35]

Just wrote a little email to say

"Hi W

There are few things that we haven't decided on splitting: stuff in the shed, kitchen, cupboards etc. Small things that weren't on the asset list basically. Let me know what you think. I'm coming up on [days] to start packing my things away.
D"

It's all coming to a head now. First time I'm feeling a little scared for ages.

[Traveler]

DaB35, in some ways your situation has been the most unfair. You didn't get the opportunity many of us did of an angry ex who was connected enough to scream and cry about issues. Where there's anger there's hope. My ex came back and I got to the closure of trying and concluding our issues are irreconcilable.

It's all coming to a head now. First time I'm feeling a little scared for ages.

What outcome scares you?

[DaB35]

Hi CW

It was kind of half and half. When she discovered everything, W ran away to family and friends immediately. Within 24 hours she said D will happen. We didn't see each other for 3 weeks. During that time she'd email or call me. It was not productive. She would shout down the phone at me and swear at me and call me everything under the sun and more. We'd have 2hr long conversations that would not go anywhere.

Unfortunately at that time I was not aware of this site, nor had I started IC. I knew nothing of validating, boundaries, etc. I was panicky and did all the wrong things - pleading, pursuing, etc.

She was pushing me to answer questions on the phone but I couldn't as I hadn't had time to think about how I'd respond to them properly. She screamed and cried. I cried too.

The oddest thing for me still is that in June she softened. We were talking, spending time together, and were even physical together several times during that period. She was then talking about home improvements, "taking baby steps", saying she was very pleased I'd passed the polygraph test I volunteered to take, and we went out for dinner a couple of times too. Then suddenly in July, she stopped talking to me. Ignored me for 3 weeks. I think someone made her act that way - W is quite susceptible to others close to her telling her what to do - but I haven't had a chance to go into detail on that with her. Plus now, I suppose it's a moot point.

The sad thing is once my IC was in full flow, she was not around and had moved to her brother's. She wasn't communicating with me very much except for me to gain access to the house when I needed to. Now I understand better the reasons why I did what I did and didn't do, she's not around so I can't explain it fully to her.

I guess I'm a bit scared of the immediate future. No house, living with parents, having to basically "start again" in my mid 30s. I worked so hard for that house and put most of my life savings into it. The House will no longer be ours by end of the month. I'll get most of what I put in back from the sale, but that's not the point is it - I intended to stay in that house with W for 30 years or so. The upshot of this is that I've had time to 'upgrade' myself mentally and physically, so now I know W is missing out and it's her loss.

[DaB35]

Reply from W:

"Hi,

I’m planning on packing up the rest of my stuff next week on [days]. I’ve got a van booked on [day] so I should be totally out by the end of the day. That will leave you the full weekend to move all your stuff out. Is that an ok plan of action? Not sure about all the bits and bobs, I’m planning on taking half the towels and half the bedding. I’m really not bothered about all the little things so if there is anything in particular you want just let me know.
W"

Very impersonal. Frustrating as she hasn't really answered my questions. I was going to respond later today and say something along the lines of:

"W
OK. Can I assume that I am to take everything from [xyz] if you haven't packed it up already, and also am I taking [small list of other things that I assume I will keep as she hasn't mentioned them]? Just need to clarify.
Thanks, D"


Looks like we'll be ships passing in the night to take our belongings, our house will be sold, and then that's it.
I feel sad about it and have a lump in my throat today. She is so distant. I'm going to keep DBing though. All that I've achieved in the last 6 months away from her has been for my benefit.

[DaB35]

One thing I forgot to mention - when I went to the house on Saturday, the way W had packed was so disorganised. She has literally chucked stuff in boxes, not packed them properly. They are all over the house, in no order. It will be very difficult for me to get larger items out the house for example.

It's just going to make things harder for my family when we go up there this weekend to pack my things away. Not sure if she's done it deliberately (I like to think not) or if she's done it in a rush and not finished it (wonder why as she always hated leaving things unfinished).
I will take as much as I can away this weekend, so hopefully will just need a van for one trip to take the furniture. I've ended up with more furniture than her, though W has the lovely task of dismantling our bed (it took 3 hours to put together so I don't envy her).

I can't take everything non-furniture as W still hasn't responded to my questions about other stuff not on the asset list.

Sorted out my storage facility today. 6 months paid upfront meant I got a discount. Glad that's another thing ticked off the list. Also pre-warned some utility companies about cancellations. Tick.

I get the feeling she is being very cold about this as she just wants it done and 'over with'. Throughout this I'm maintaining a pleasant tone on email/text. I have had fleeting thoughts about being passive-aggressive, e.g. "the house sale is almost done, so then you'll have what you wanted." I know that is absolutely not useful, a regression back to NGS which I'm leaving behind, and doesn't help me or her at all. I have used the mental STOP sign thing from DR to combat those thoughts. Before I think I would have just been passive-aggressive like that and not cared, as if to score points. But I want to be above that. Take the high road.

I have worked really hard at not slipping back into old habits, and although I'm dreading the next few weeks I do have other things to look forward to after it (extra creative work, organising storage properly, continuing with gym, family events etc).

[DS9]

Hey Dan

This really is a watershed moment for you isnt it. Stay strong, maintain PMA and keep DBing. Don't lapse, don't falter - keep DBing.

I'd reply with a list of the things you intend taking. Say if you don't hear back with any objections, you'll then take them. Short, to the point and businesslike.

More questions invites more interaction which leads to more emotional pain. Trust me it will be better for you emotionally if you don't meet up at the house. Your time will come when the complete, fully modded very best version of Dan 2.0 is revealed to her.

Her disorganised packing could be reflective of her scattered mind. Don't dwell on the disorganisation of her life.

You may be 2 ships passing, but you're also that lighthouse as well.

Proud of how far youve come mate. Keep going!

Cheers DS

[DaB35]

Thanks DS.

I'm keeping the PMA best I can. I've replied more decisively, like "I'll take [xyz], unless you were thinking of taking [y]."

Yes I wondered that. She can be quite scatty. This is something her other friends (who are by comparison quite dull people) would tease her about. W would then moan to me saying, "I'm always the butt of the joke to them!".
I won't dwell on it, but I was frustrated that she has left partly filled boxes all over the house and given me unnecessary work to manoeuvre around them/move them before I can do anything. Minor in the scheme of things, but still annoying!

She's texted me this morning to say -

"Hiya, was thinking about the garden stuff. Do you and your parents want to take them all including the mower? I just don't think I'll need them, probably gonna be in a flat so won't have a garden, your parents are welcome to it if they want it."

The breezy 'hiya' confused me a little. This happens once every 5-6 texts. Probably nothing in it, but it's a little jarring when I read it. I won't reply, as I've just modified my email to her and added, "Got your text about the garden. [My thoughts]."

I have no intention of stopping DBing. There are times when I think I might lapse into NGS traits but I'm becoming strong enough to resist that more frequently, so those danger periods are becoming fewer and far between. Certainly the whole addiction thing is long, long gone (thanks to excellent IC).

I know there will come a time when she will see the new me. I don't know when that is. It will happen though, whenever that time comes. She will certainly hear about the progress I've made from mutual friends etc. I don't mind them telling W what I've been up to or how I'm doing.

I will still be the lighthouse. I do worry sometimes that in my remaining the lighthouse, she is thinking in the background, "OK he is clearly moving on, he doesn't care about me or us, he's not fighting for M anymore, so I know I'm doing the right thing by D-ing him. Good riddance." I don't know. Of course I can't mind read but it does pop through my head sometimes.

But, I will still be the lighthouse.

[DaB35]

Reply from W this evening:

"Hi,

I went to the house this evening and finished the kitchen packing I needed to get done. So the rest is yours I think. I’m not sure about [x, y, z items], I’ll have to take a look through it next week. I’m off to [sister's] on Saturday and back Tuesday so I’ll take a look at the shed and garage on Wednesday.
Yes take [a, b, c items I assumed I was taking] - that’s fine.
I’ve got a pile of empty boxes in the living room I intend to fill with things next week so please don’t use them, but I have left a large box in the garage for you that looks a good size for one of your TVs.
Not sure about the jellycats, it feels horrid to divide them.

Can you leave the bins out Sunday night? We will need them empty to get rid of more stuff next week.
W"

At least I have a better idea of what to take now.
Interesting that she made a point of using the word "horrid" to split up the soft toys (she calls them 'the soft').

I noticed one of W's friends has unfriended me on FB (she was always usually on the front page of my friends list. I don't really use it much now - mainly to speak to people when I can't be bothered to text on my non-smartphone!

So it looks like W will run to her sister again for three days of neurotic stressing out and me-bashing. More fool them - I'm so far from what they think of me now.

Going to get an early night as I'm going up to the house with my family tomorrow to pack as much of my stuff away over the next 2/3 days.

[DaB35]

Update

Spent two days clearing my stuff out. Got the storage place organised. Quite expensive but we paid up front for 6 months so saved about £200 overall doing that. Worried not everything will fit - furniture, books, paperwork, computer stuff etc. It'll be very tight; I just hope we don't have to shift into a bigger unit, meaning higher cost.

W has gone up to see sister for three days (500 mile round trip; considering we have to have vacated the house by 23rd not sure why she's doing that). She says she'll be out by next Friday.
She still hasn't confirmed what she's taking regarding certain things. I've taken a few things myself as she hasn't mentioned them. It's like she's avoiding talking about certain items in the house with me.

Going back tomorrow to clear the shed. I found our marriage certificate in the garage, folded up and discarded in a pile of redundant paperwork. I've still got my wedding ring on; I only take it off when I go to the gym as it feels uncomfortable under the gloves I wear.

I'm practising validating with a friend; his W has been through a rather traumatic birth, and their baby was very ill over New Year. They're on the mend thankfully - we're talking regularly via FB Messenger and might catch up soon.

[DaB35]

Bit of advice needed please:

I've mainly got most of my stuff out of the house now and in storage. My sister's H can borrow a van which saves me a lot of money, so we can use that this weekend to take the furniture etc. This is the last week I own the house.

There are a few bits still in the house where I'm not sure who's taking what.

It really feels like W is stalling dealing with this.

I've drafted this email:

"Hi W

I've left [xyz] for you in kitchen. I have just taken [abc]. In the kitchen there are 2 boxes - this has [W's stuff] in it.
My parents have said you can keep those boxes if you still need them [my parents had bought these plastic boxes for W which were quite pricey as they're sturdy and somewhat heavy duty].
There are also 2 boxes in the shed of [abc - more W's stuff]. 

I will assume that anything else left after Friday is mine. [W is only coming to house Weds to Fri this week].

I can see why it would be sad to divide up the soft toys. Please let me know who else you would like to keep so I know who will not be there on Sunday. 

D"

As previously mentioned above she said it "seems horrid" to divide up the little collection of soft toys. My thought was to validate that sentiment of hers as per above, but then bring her back to reality immediately by saying, 'tell me which ones you're taking' so it hits home to her that it's an unavoidable consequence.

I read on an old thread somewhere yesterday that Ms are "for better" and "for worse". W and I are certainly going through a 'for worse' now. It seems such a shame to write off a M when it's a difficult situation that can be fixed with effort. It is definitely not easier running away from a problem; I have put in the effort to address certain aspects, I can say that.

I'm going up tomorrow (Tuesday) to collect a few final things before using the van on Sunday. It's sad.

Plan to go to the gym tonight to clear my head and make more progress there!

[AnotherStander]

That sounds fine D. Hang tough, once you get through this part of it I think you'll find things going a lot smoother!

[DaB35]

Thanks AS. I'll send that email this evening when I get back from the gym, or might wait to send it tomorrow morning.

I feel I'm not moving on in the full sense that I don't want to be with W or care about anything, but more moving forward - more a sense of addressing issues, tackling them, improving, GALing, etc. - which I think is more positive.

I'm still in the dark about final payments for the house. The solicitors and agents have been awful, totally non-communicative to me. I assume it'll happen this weekend/Monday next week as haven't heard contrary.

In a way I'm glad W has felt the stress of this - she would have put all this on me if we were mutually selling the house to move somewhere else, so it's good she's had to do a lot of the work. I still regret moving my stuff out back in May. I should have refused and stayed put. That would've been a significant 180. Oh well. Right now, I feel better about myself and that's the important bit isn't it?

[AnotherStander]

I feel I'm not moving on in the full sense that I don't want to be with W or care about anything, but more moving forward - more a sense of addressing issues, tackling them, improving, GALing, etc. - which I think is more positive.

Yes that's exactly the right path. "Moving on" will follow later.

I'm still in the dark about final payments for the house. The solicitors and agents have been awful, totally non-communicative to me. I assume it'll happen this weekend/Monday next week as haven't heard contrary.

Sorry to hear that! This kind of stuff is tough to deal with for sure, one of the hassles of breaking up that you don't think about.

[DaB35]

Getting ready to go up again to collect a few more things this afternoon.

Two things that are still on my mind.

1. I have not made any contact with W's family or friends since last May. I've gone 100% dark and not spoken to any of them whatsoever. Is that correct? I do sometimes think (used to be all the time I'd think this) that they think I don't care enough about M or W or R, because I'm not 'fighting' by coming back, begging for forgiveness, etc. I still have not said anything to her parents, her siblings, etc.

I remember that W chastised me for not driving 300 miles to her sister's house to see her when it all started - "Why didn't you come here? Where's your passion?!" she'd angrily ask on the phone. Yet she'd previously asked for space, so I was giving it to her. This right-or-wrong-whatever-you-do situation is so frustrating.

2. When everything is done, do I offer closure of some sort to W? Do I tell her I'm sorry again? Do I give a succinct note saying things like "Sorry I felt I couldn't open up and be vulnerable to you" or "I was too ashamed to talk to anyone about my problems so that made it worse", or "I'm sorry I'd never let you know when I was upset or angry about something and suppress the emotion instead of talking about it" etc.

I intend to still be a lighthouse. Does that mean I just keep DBing without saying anything like that, and just be content in the knowledge that W will get to hear about my changes and possibly even see them?

[DS9]

Hey Dan

I think you're right not making contact with her family or friends, especially since you dont have kids.

Nor do you give XW a note or issue another grovelling apology. You've already done these anyway. I can imagine she'd view that with revulsion "Hey XW, I know I've said sorry many times before, but this time I'm really sorry and just wanted to remind you....".

It's tempting to do, but you must resist, and keep resisting. Have you read the lighthouse analogy post on it's own dedicated thread?

Cheers DS

[DaB35]

Hi DS

OK yes I needed confirmation that what I have been doing was right.

I know where I went wrong, so if she does ever bring up an R talk I know what to say and how to react.

W will be at the house today til Friday clearing her stuff out. When I go there for the last time on Sunday, all her stuff should be gone. She still hasn't replied to my email earlier this week about other items where it's unclear who'll take them.

I am feeling a strange mixture of emotions lately.
Sadness and loss - it's more obvious now. Also frustration at how far things have gone.
Also relief - that I'm not being kept hanging around; I am upset that W basically kept me hanging for over a month last year, giving me extreme ups and downs almost every hour.
Also happiness - at my own improvements, my increase in confidence, and the fact that I feel a bit closer to my family now.
It's all mixed together.

DBing still in force. I won't stop as I'm sure I can reap more rewards from these newly improved and changed behaivours. The lighthouse is in very good order.

[DaB35]

W has just texted - she's at the house clearing her stuff away.

"So I've pulled out the washing machine and it's dead, so need to recycle it at the dump. How would I go about doing that? Would you be able to be there at all if it needed collection?"

Cheeky!

I am going to wait about 30-60mins then respond:

"W, the council may collect it if it's outside. Suggest you call them & check. D."

Or is a response not appropriate at all? She's asking me to do something for her, which I won't do, since she's fired me as H. It's her problem, but how can I politely say "this is what you do, but I'm not helping?"

I suspect I'll get a few more texts like this over the next 48 hours...

[DS9]

I’m half asleep mate so I’ll be brief

Hi XW. I think it’s best if you arrange disposal of the machine yourself. Regards Dan ‘

[DaB35]

Thanks DS - it's 1pm here!

I responded as advised. She hasn't replied. I don't understand why she can't think to call the local authority herself. We've done this before with a bit of old furniture which they collected and gave to charity. Why she needs me to tell her what to do I don't know.

Gym update - up to 62.5kg on abs, 80kg at 3x12 on leg press now, getting above 20kg on shoulder press, 45-50kg on chest press, and faster rowing machine times (usually do 1.5-2k at a time). Most improvement is on bi/triceps, abs second. Haven't been able to do my cycling class for a couple of weeks due to going up to the house and sorting storage out, but I can definitely say all the lifting of stuff in and out of cars has been much easier! Looking forward to yoga on Friday to chill out.

[DaB35]

Just got a "Thank you" response from W.

Weird!

[AnotherStander]

Would you be able to be there at all if it needed collection?"

Cheeky!

Boy is it ever cheeky! You handled it well. Good job avoiding being the rescuer!

Nice progress in the gym, good work! I've been on a bulk cycle lately and am nearly to the most I've ever weighed (a couple pounds shy of it). Except when I weighed it before, I wasn't working out and it was all blubber, LOL! I have about 6 weeks to go on this cycle, then level off food intake, then start a cut again. I like the bulking a lot more than the cutting, hahaha!

[SteveLW]

Thanks DS - it's 1pm here!

I responded as advised. She hasn't replied. I don't understand why she can't think to call the local authority herself. We've done this before with a bit of old furniture which they collected and gave to charity. Why she needs me to tell her what to do I don't know.

Gym update - up to 62.5kg on abs, 80kg at 3x12 on leg press now, getting above 20kg on shoulder press, 45-50kg on chest press, and faster rowing machine times (usually do 1.5-2k at a time). Most improvement is on bi/triceps, abs second. Haven't been able to do my cycling class for a couple of weeks due to going up to the house and sorting storage out, but I can definitely say all the lifting of stuff in and out of cars has been much easier! Looking forward to yoga on Friday to chill out.

Good job! I've recommitted to my workout program. Making good gains on bench, squats and deadlifts. Feels so good to get under the bar at load! Keep it up. Nothing works for self-esteem like working out.

[DaB35]

Thanks everyone, appreciate the advice. I'm pleased I handled as I did. It's a minor issue in the grand scheme of things I know, but my not rescuing W or offering to be at the house for when it's collected is a big deal. Seems W is still relying on me to do stuff like this. I don't know why she needed to ask me what to do; it's so obvious and she's a very clever woman.

I think it's needless to get rid of the machine really - at home I'd regularly clean it. She's clearly not done that and so it's deteriorated. I'm sure it's fixable but she's the kind of person who'd prefer to throw something away rather than sort it out. Sadly I don't have space for it anywhere so cannot offer to take it instead.

GAL for this evening - studying followed by gym later on.

[DaB35]

New text from W:

"How did you get on with the council? I'd rather pay [higher fee] to have sale proceeds transferred straightaway then we know it's all gone through properly before we give the keys. Is your parents' money in the joint account? Remind me?"

Several things here:
- She has misunderstood my text from yesterday about the washing machine. When she asked "How would I go about disposing of it?", I suggested: "I'd call the council and check if they can collect it." She has therefore assumed that *I* will do that, and has expected me to have already contacted them.
Shall I just do it? Is it worth arguing about this?

- We can either pay one fee to get the house sale proceeds paid by bank transfer (takes 2-3 days), or by a faster process (same day) which is more than twice the price. I think it's a bit of a waste of money (we're talking £20 extra) but I don't think I will choose to have this battle.

- My parents gave us some money towards a home improvement. They gave it to me about a fortnight before BD. I remember that W definitely mentioned to me afterwards, "I suppose we should give that money back to your parents." I then withdrew it. She then had a massive rant at me, saying how disrespectful I was taking it without talking to her. She denied all knowledge of saying that we should give it back. I transferred it back. It's stayed there ever since. I don't know why she needs reminding. She has access to that account and can check the banking app at any time.

Bit of help please!

[DaB35]

I just responded

"W,
Here is the number to organise collection. It'll cost [x]. It won't be collected on Monday when the buyers move in.
If you're happy paying the extra fee for the sale transfer that's fine.
Yes the [£] is still in the joint account.
D"

I can't be bothered with this. I see she may be stressed but I'm annoyed she still skim-reads even now and just expects me to do stuff for her.

...Breathe, and back to normal things now...

[AnotherStander]

Several things here:
- She has misunderstood my text from yesterday about the washing machine. When she asked "How would I go about disposing of it?", I suggested: "I'd call the council and check if they can collect it." She has therefore assumed that *I* will do that, and has expected me to have already contacted them.
Shall I just do it? Is it worth arguing about this?

I'm not sure she misunderstood you, I think she understood but decided to strong-arm you into doing it, phrasing it as if that is a foregone conclusion. I would have just ignored it but it sounds like you took care of it so that's fine too, probably better peace-of-mind for you.

- We can either pay one fee to get the house sale proceeds paid by bank transfer (takes 2-3 days), or by a faster process (same day) which is more than twice the price. I think it's a bit of a waste of money (we're talking £20 extra) but I don't think I will choose to have this battle.

I agree with you, at that amount it's not worth fighting about.

- My parents gave us some money towards a home improvement. They gave it to me about a fortnight before BD. I remember that W definitely mentioned to me afterwards, "I suppose we should give that money back to your parents." I then withdrew it. She then had a massive rant at me, saying how disrespectful I was taking it without talking to her. She denied all knowledge of saying that we should give it back. I transferred it back. It's stayed there ever since. I don't know why she needs reminding. She has access to that account and can check the banking app at any time.

Inform her that you are withdrawing it to transfer back to your parents and then do it. Don't wait for her permission.

[Traveler]

Hi Dab35,

I don't think she's confused. I suspect she keeps calling you to help her do things, because you've rewarded that before. Compare what DS9 suggested and what you actually sent:

Hi XW. I think it’s best if you arrange disposal of the machine yourself. Regards Dan ‘

I'd call the council and check if they can collect it.

Here is the number to organise collection. It'll cost [x]. It won't be collected on Monday when the buyers move in.

See the difference?

Shall I just do it? Is it worth arguing about this?

Good job not doing her task yourself, assuming it is her task. A text that it's her responsibility (if it actually is) doesn't take very long, it sets a boundary, and it takes two to argue--she has to resolve her own anger.

[DaB35]

Thanks guys.

She has booked it and paid for it herself (good), and she'll get her brother to move it to the front of the house.
Whether they'll deliberately leave it in front of the garage so I cannot get access into the garage without moving it again is another matter - I'll find out on Sunday morning!

She has said "The [£x] is to be split 50/50, it's in the lawyer's paperwork. I'm sure it was discussed."

This is news to me! I don't recall discussing this further. I was under the assumption that we would consider this separately from everything else, and that there would be no question about us giving the full amount back to my parents.

I take some of the blame for this, because I should have pointed out before the financial papers were all completed that we needed to work out what was going to happen to this money (it's a few thousand pounds).

My sister and her H have said "I don't see what her issue is. If we split up, there'd be no argument. We'd just give that money back to my parents. I wouldn't expect to take half of that."

My mum is rather upset by it all. It's because the money was for a specific purpose, and now that purpose is no longer happening as the house is sold, I just thought it'd be no issue to take it back. I guarantee W's sister has googled something and said "That's your money, it's in a joint account in your names, so you're entitled to half of it." And W has gone along with it. I'd bet money on that.

Part of me thinks, just let her take it, and I'll gradually pay my parents back for her half. I'm disappointed W has treated my parents like this, after everything they've done for her.

[AnotherStander]

D, that is dirty and petty of your W, but my XW did much the same in the 11th hour of our divorce. I would talk to your L and confirm whether or not it really is in the paperwork, don't take her word for it. If it's in there and the paperwork is already signed, then so be it. If it's not then try to recover it for your parents.

[job]

I agree w/AnotherStander. speak to your lawyer about it as soon as possible. Hopefully it is not in spelled out in the paperwork. I agree w/you and your family, that if the project wasn't done that the money was earmarked for, then it should be returned to your parents.

You want to give this particular matter taken care of as soon as possible so that everyone is on the same page.

[DaB35]

D, that is dirty and petty of your W

Yes my thoughts exactly. I'm so upset at her. My parents did SO much for her; they helped her with her business buying her tools, my dad built a computer for her, they would always offer to help us out at the house if we needed things doing, and my mum even paid for W's wedding dress to be cleaned (£150). It feels like a real slap in the face.

...but my XW did much the same in the 11th hour of our divorce.

Sorry to hear about that. It's so frustrating isn't it.

I would talk to your L and confirm whether or not it really is in the paperwork, don't take her word for it. If it's in there and the paperwork is already signed, then so be it. If it's not then try to recover it for your parents.

Yes I've emailed the L to clarify the situation. If it's not in the paperwork and everything's Signed/Sealed/Delivered, then I'll just give my parents the money out of my share of the sale proceeds. I cannot let them lose that money. It would really bother me if I didn't do anything about it.

I agree w/you and your family, that if the project wasn't done that the money was earmarked for, then it should be returned to your parents.
You want to give this particular matter taken care of as soon as possible so that everyone is on the same page.

Thanks job. Yes my sister and I feel the same way. It's funny - as I said, my sis and her H's views on this were, without any prompting from me and before I'd given the whole story - "If your parents or my parents gave us some money for something and we split up, we'd just give it back. Why would we even think about sharing that money when it's not even used for what it was intended for and not technically ours? I'd feel uncomfortable keeping it."

If it's not possible to get it back fully for my parents, then that is my error. I should have highlighted it before the form was submitted. I just thought we'd agree to withdraw it, pay m parents back, then split what's left.
I still maintain that W said to me that she felt we should give it back, but now she's vehemently denying ever saying that. I can't be bothered to argue. That's why I think someone has told her "It's in a joint account in your names, therefore it's yours to share."

This reminds of a Black Mirror episode where people have implants that record events, meaning they can can 'beam' memories of things onto the TV (like mental streaming), proving what people said. Something like that anyway. That'd be really useful in situations like this!

[DaB35]

Text from W this morning:

"I've emailed Property L to pay us in full on Monday into the joint account. I will split it 50/50 including the [£x]* and
then what's left is yours. You can then close the account."

*my parent's money

Still so upset how W has treated my parents. She hasn't bothered to pass on a thankyou to my parents for taking the TV she's having off the wall, wrapping it up in bubble wrap, and my dad had even filled the holes drilled int othe wall and painted them so they're nice for the new owners. I did try to tell my parents not to do it, but they insisted. They're just of a generation where they always help no matter what. I hope W feels guilty about that sometime later. Sorry, that's a rather NGS thing to say isn't it - just venting here really.

I checked the forms that we submitted and yes, it's not mentioned anywhere. My fault entirely. It just slipped my mind to discuss it further with W. I really cannot be bothered to argue with her. I will pay my parents back out of my share. They get it back in full then. For everything they've done for me in the past 9 months, it's the very least I can do.

Somewhat emotional day today. My sister's MIL turned 60 and we had an afternoon tea with their family at the venue where W and I got married in 2016. It was weird, because every other time I've been there, W was always close by. I didn't get too sad really, enjoyed myself and spoke to some friendly new people. I had a couple of moments to myself where I walked around and stared out of the window at the lovely beautiful grounds. It is a lovely place.

It will then be emotional going to the house for the very last time tomorrow morning. All W's stuff will have gone. I expect there'll be things relating to 'us' as a couple that she'll have left behind deliberately. I still am surprised that she kept all the special occasion cards I gave her over the years.

No gym today or tomorrow - no time. Have sorted out cancelling utility bills (they're all in my name); have to wait til Monday to call a couple of them before I know what's going on. Just having a chilled evening flitting between TV and YouTube. In a very reflective mood today.

[DaB35]

Emotional day. I left my house and the town where I lived for 3 years for the very last time this morning.

When we got there, discovered W had left TONS of stuff that (a) I assumed she'd take and (b) was hers anyway but she just left behind. Things like gifts her students bought her, her suitcase, even a chair/side table that belonged to her gran. I texted her asking if she's coming back but she replied saying "No I've taken everything I could. If you want it you can have it, or just bin it. Your mum can have the chair if she likes it. I just don't have space in my storage unit." She left lots of things we'd previously agreed she'd take (e.g. the kettle, the side table, the chair, some garden stuff from the shed, her own suitcase which she's had for decades). W also left behind a couple of presents I got her earlier last year.

My parents took everything. They hate seeing things go to waste. I was going to text W later today to say it's in my storage unit - when she's more settled she can have the stuff whe nshe has space.

She left a card for my parents. It said, "Thank you for the work you've done on the house, it's made it much easier for me to cope with everything. I wanted to thank you for all your support over the years, and for the encouragement and practical help you've given me when I needed it. I love you all, W xxx"

As the house was empty, I went round every room, first to check I hadn't forgotten anything, but also to just say a final goodbye to each room. As I closed the front door and locked it for the last time, I don't know why but I just pressed the doorbell so I could hear the nice simple chime one last time.

I went to see one of my neighbours to say goodbye. She has always been friendly and supportive of us. I don't know why, but as she gave me a big hug I just burst into tears. She knows W & I have S and most likely will have seen W as she was packing her things up and W would have probably mentioned D. She asked if I was ok and I said yes but clearly I wasn't! She told me to "look up and forward" and that "good things will happen". She gave a second big hug and smile, and we parted ways.

My sister noticed I was a bit teary as I locked up. I cried for a bit in the car on the way to the storage place but was ok by the time I got there. Managed to fit everything in - just! I'll have to go through everything over the next few weeks, and separate it into piles of keep/sell/charity/tip/donate to others.

I already miss the house. We both worked so hard to get it. We put our life savings into it for our deposit. We really did a lot to it to make it a home. I miss the town too; it was lovely, not too big, not too small, and everything you needed was on the high street - newsagents, gift shops, bakers, butchers, general store, little theatre, hardware store, barbers, hairdressers/salon, takeaways, brilliant Indian restaurant, car garage, little supermarket. All within walking distance of each other. W and I achieved so much as a couple. I am so sad that she felt the last 8 years were not worth her putting effort in to save it. Having said that, I will still DB. For me.

Going to go for a lie down I think!

[DaB35]

Automated email received today - W has applied for the decree absolute.
D is about to be finalised very soon. I hope she's happy she'll get what she wanted.

Received the sale proceeds from the house. W already took her bit, including half my parents' money.

Very sad day.

[DaB35]

Technology always finds a way. Just got an automated email saying the decree absolute is final - how quick was that?!

I'm in shock.

I am divorced. I am no longer married. I now have an XW. I am an XH.

I am so sad that W chucked this all away. 8 years. 8 wonderful years full of love and laughter. Sad she felt there was no way we could fix things. I wanted to work on the M. I really did. I offered transparency, I sought IC, I paid for/tookpassed a polygraph test. But she had made up her mind within 24hrs of discovering what I did. I am now another statistic.

I want to still be a lighthouse of sorts. I still care for her. I am frustrated at how her friends and family have enabled her. I do not hate her. Even though she's been extremely distant (haven't seen her for 5-6 months), and seems to have forgotten what she said in August ("If we could have a friendship I'd love that...I care about your happiness...I have no doubt you can change and sort yourself out").

I will keep DBing. I will keep up the gym, my creative projects, putting in lots of effort at work, and just keeping PMA. I know this will be hard. I feel a lump in my throat; always hated that feeling ever since I was a kid.

I have grown. I have bettered myself. I have overcome a lot of my problems which had been left for years, and my
health has improved as a result. I am not useless, ugly, worthless, or unworthy of love, which is something I'd always carried with me for years and years including before XW and I met. I've got rid of that negativity finally.


What do I do? Do I contact XW and tell her I know it's finalised? Do I contact her parents - if so what would I say? Do I say anything to XW about how tragically sad this situation is?

I am so glad I found this board. I just wish I found it much, much earlier.

[AnotherStander]

D- very sorry you're going through this. I know it must be tough, especially since it hasn't been that long since BD for you.

Also really sorry she took half your parents' money. That tells you what kind of person she is right there. Zero character. That should be enough to convince that this is for the best.

What do I do? Do I contact XW and tell her I know it's finalised? Do I contact her parents - if so what would I say? Do I say anything to XW about how tragically sad this situation is?

No say absolutely nothing. Go dark. Don't talk to XW, you're divorced now. Don't reach out to her parents. Take time to heal.

[DaB35]

Hi AS, thanks. From May 2019 to Feb 2020. All gone in less than a year. I have never had as much money in the bank before now, but at what cost? I have lost a gorgeous partner, a house and a lifestyle I loved.

I do think it's her loss. She could've waited 5-6 months and I'd be able to start showing her my changed attitude to life in general.

I have given my parents her share of their money. They said I can keep my share as savings towards my next place. I've stashed it away in an account I can't access for a few months.

My mum feels sorry for XW - she feels she was being rushed by others in packing her things (hence why she left so much of her stuff behind) and that her family haven't really helped her that much. We don't know that of course as she hasn't said anything, but from what she's told me I think only her brother and his W have helped her move her stuff out. And she said after BD, "I'd always choose my family over a partner. Any day of the week."

I feel guilty about not saying anything to her at all. Is that normal? It feels so cold, but then is that textbook DBing? After D has actually happened, go 100% dark in the knowledge that XW will certainly get to hear about my changes and improvements eventually?

But then...as I'm typing that I'm also thinking - am I hoping that happens so I can prove her and her friends/family wrong? Am I hoping it will make her feel guilty - that she was way too impulsive, and did this entirely based on emotion rather than logic? Or do I think that by the time she does see me, will I have moved on from her completely and not want her back? Or, am I just going dark simply because it's the best thing to help me DB further?

I know it's hard to know how I'll feel in a week, let alone six months to a year, but I must keep the focus on me and keep DBing and GALing. I'm off to the gym.

[DaB35]

Text from XW:

"Hi, so the house has completed and the divorce appears to have also come through today. I just want to wish you all the best and good luck for your future. I hope everything pans out well for you."

What do I say to that? After 8 years, that's all she has to say? Three sentences? She is also implying that we won't see each other again, despite saying she wanted to remain friends many many times.

I want to reply:

"Hi. Yes I saw the emails today. Some bills will still need paying end of this month - as they get cancelled one by one, I will pass half of any refunds on to you as agreed.
We haven't binned your stuff; it felt wrong to do so. In time, when you're settled and ready, we will help get it back to you.
If I could go back I'd do a lot differently, but there are so many things I wouldn't change at all. I can see how the last 9 months have been a distressing, overwhelming & emotional time for you, and can only imagine how difficult it has all been for you. I wish it never came to this. You have touched my life in ways nobody can understand. Such wonderful things await you, I know it. I like to think our paths will cross again."

I know, I know, the last bit is dripping in pursuit. But I figure I have nothing to lose now.

[ovrrnbw]

Hey buddy,

Just read up on your sitch. It all sounds like quite the tragedy. R2C posted a link to a video on stoicism that I really liked. I recant the phrase amor fati quite often. It means I love it. Look for the good in your life right now. It's there, right in front of you. I know you didn't want this divorce and you didn't deserve and she didn't give you a real chance. But maybe that's just part of what your life is. Maybe it'sa small part too.The end isn't as important as the journey and what you accomplished and what you learned along the way. We just get so focused on the conclusion and so emotionally tied to an outcome that we are blind to all the things that are going right. And they aren't going right by chance either. Your story isn't over. It's just getting started. She's gone? That leaves a spot open for the right girl. She's coming along one day. You'll be settled in to your new life and your new habits and when you least expect she will show up. Keep your head held high. You stood tall throughout this. You fought the good fight. Winning wasn't saving your marriage, it was about your arc. Friends or not friends, good luck and well wishes, which words to pick to give her closure...they don't matter. I'd delete that message and pour my heart out into the next chapter. You have the whole world waiting for you, just don't make them wait too long.

[DaB35]

Thanks Overrnbw for taking the time to read up on my sitch.

Yes, she absolutely didn't give it a chance. She decided it was over before we both could discuss things properly. I just wish she was not so stubborn and impatient. This is my problem with people who throw a R away so quickly. Do they even value it enough in the first place, if they're happy to simply pull the plug? Is their partner simply expendable and interchangeable?

I am a good person. I was just stumbling along the way frequently, without asking for help. I've learned a lot about myself these last 9 months. I realised I sacrificed too much to make XW happy, at the expense of my happiness, and it made me stressed and depressed in the background. Even if it put me in a difficult position, I would always strive to make her happy, and felt my needs were less important. Classic NGS - I lost my 'personal power'. 6 months of IC worked wonders however, and I realise that my opinion does matter - never thought it did before.

There is a lot of good in my life right now. I have things to achieve, I have my family, I have friends, I have a good job, I have hobbies and interests. I DBed. I will keep DBing.

[AnotherStander]

Text from XW:

"Hi, so the house has completed and the divorce appears to have also come through today. I just want to wish you all the best and good luck for your future. I hope everything pans out well for you."

What do I say to that? After 8 years, that's all she has to say? Three sentences? She is also implying that we won't see each other again, despite saying she wanted to remain friends many many times.

I want to reply:

"Hi. Yes I saw the emails today. Some bills will still need paying end of this month - as they get cancelled one by one, I will pass half of any refunds on to you as agreed.
We haven't binned your stuff; it felt wrong to do so. In time, when you're settled and ready, we will help get it back to you.
If I could go back I'd do a lot differently, but there are so many things I wouldn't change at all. I can see how the last 9 months have been a distressing, overwhelming & emotional time for you, and can only imagine how difficult it has all been for you. I wish it never came to this. You have touched my life in ways nobody can understand. Such wonderful things await you, I know it. I like to think our paths will cross again."

I know, I know, the last bit is dripping in pursuit. But I figure I have nothing to lose now.

OK now here is what you should reply:

"Thanks."

THAT IS ALL!!!!!

[DaB35]

AS - Haha!

Had an ok day today. Didn't think about XW or D much today. A few friends and work colleagues have offered support to me which is nice. Don't feel totally alone which is a blessing. I busied myself at work today, got loads done and felt very productive when I left. Finalising all the utility refunds/final bills; easy to sort out so should all be done by next month.

Thinking about selling a few things too to raise a bit more cash. Living at home with parents means I can save loads in the next few months.

Off to the gym later.

[DS9]

Text from XW:

"Hi, so the house has completed and the divorce appears to have also come through today. I just want to wish you all the best and good luck for your future. I hope everything pans out well for you."

What do I say to that? After 8 years, that's all she has to say? Three sentences? She is also implying that we won't see each other again, despite saying she wanted to remain friends many many times.

I want to reply:

"Hi. Yes I saw the emails today. Some bills will still need paying end of this month - as they get cancelled one by one, I will pass half of any refunds on to you as agreed.
We haven't binned your stuff; it felt wrong to do so. In time, when you're settled and ready, we will help get it back to you.
If I could go back I'd do a lot differently, but there are so many things I wouldn't change at all. I can see how the last 9 months have been a distressing, overwhelming & emotional time for you, and can only imagine how difficult it has all been for you. I wish it never came to this. You have touched my life in ways nobody can understand. Such wonderful things await you, I know it. I like to think our paths will cross again."

I know, I know, the last bit is dripping in pursuit. But I figure I have nothing to lose now.

OK now here is what you should reply:

"Thanks."

THAT IS ALL!!!!!

Dan, I'd actually shorten AS' suggestion to "Ta".

Remember, she writes War and Peace, you reply (if at all) with Spot the Dog!

Also, don't ever assume you have 'nothing to lose', because it could be that that one little silly thing you do whilst in that mindset that extinguishes the tiniest ember that could remain in your XW's heart. Don't ever think you can stray from DB - it's a lifeskill too you know. Don't ever assume you know what they think or feel.

Check out my thread's latest post - I've now reconnected IRL with an old girlfriend after 22 years. Turns out she thought about me all the time in that period, and it was her that let me go and moved away at the time we split!

[DaB35]

Thanks DS. I ended up replying "Thanks for letting me know." I didn't say 'good luck' or 'hope everything pans out well' (who says that to an XS?). The way she phrased that kinda made me wish she hadn't bothered typing it; it was so impersonal.

Didn't bother updating her about the bills/refunds from utility companies. No response - didn't expect one.

I still can't believe she left so much stuff at the house. It added about an hour's work for myself and my family as we had to check what it was and bring it back to my storage place as obviously we couldn't leave it there (we had to be out on that day).

Yes I will keep up the DB techniques. I'm also going to always never believe 100%, or rather 50% of what XW says or does.

[DaB35]

Day off from gym today - seeing best friend for dinner. Haven't caught up with him in a few weeks. He's quit his job and looking for other things.

Quick question - he'll obviously ask about the sitch with me and XW. How much do I tell him? I mean regarding hwo I feel about the situation and our R dynamic etc.? Is there any reason to not tell him everything? Just selective bits? Or does it not matter? He is fairly close to XW too although he hasn't said much to her, just listened to her. I haven't actually told him that much anyway re therapy, thoughts on how we interacted etc., and so on.

Busy month ahead it seems - lots of stuff going on so keeping my mind occupied and happy with things to look forward to.

[ovrrnbw]

Hey bud hope you're doing well.

I still can't believe she left so much stuff at the house. It added about an hour's work for myself and my family as we had to check what it was and bring it back to my storage place as obviously we couldn't leave it there (we had to be out on that day).

I believe she proved otherwise. You should have left her to deal with her mess. I'd put all that stuff up for sale on craigslist and get rid of it asap or donate it.

Your best friend is close enough to your XW that you worry about him keeping things between you two? I dunno man, that's a little messed up. Since you're worried about it, I wouldn't say much.

[AnotherStander]

How much do I tell him? I mean regarding hwo I feel about the situation and our R dynamic etc.? Is there any reason to not tell him everything? Just selective bits? Or does it not matter? He is fairly close to XW too although he hasn't said much to her, just listened to her. I haven't actually told him that much anyway re therapy, thoughts on how we interacted etc., and so on.

Don't tell him anything. You may think he only listens to XW, but I doubt that's the case. A lot of mutual friends will fancy themselves the "great savior of the marriage" and will say all the wrong things to the WAS. He misses you, he'd get back together in a second if only you would show a little interest, he's just miserable, I really think you should give it another shot, etc. etc. Their heart is in the right place but their words do more harm than good. What you should tell him instead is that you are starting to not miss her anymore, that you're moving on, that you are feeling pretty good about things and your GAL is going really well, etc. THAT is the kind of stuff you want to get back to her.

[DaB35]

...I believe she proved otherwise. You should have left her to deal with her mess. I'd put all that stuff up for sale on craigslist and get rid of it asap or donate it.

Your best friend is close enough to your XW that you worry about him keeping things between you two? I dunno man, that's a little messed up. Since you're worried about it, I wouldn't say much.

Thanks O. It was a tricky call as the new buyers moved in the following day. The house had to be vacant of any stuff belonging to either of us, otherwise the Ls would withold the sale proceeds. I was under the impression she'd have taken everything of hers, and so there'd just be my stuff left to take. I do intend to sell some of it yes! E.g. there was a printer that she left - she bought it but no longer needs it. I don't need a new one either, so I'll sell that definitely.

Yes I won't say much to friend later today. I'm more interested in hearing about his new work plans anyway.

Don't tell him anything. You may think he only listens to XW, but I doubt that's the case. A lot of mutual friends will fancy themselves the "great savior of the marriage" and will say all the wrong things to the WAS. He misses you, he'd get back together in a second if only you would show a little interest, he's just miserable, I really think you should give it another shot, etc. etc. Their heart is in the right place but their words do more harm than good. What you should tell him instead is that you are starting to not miss her anymore, that you're moving on, that you are feeling pretty good about things and your GAL is going really well, etc. THAT is the kind of stuff you want to get back to her.

Very good points AS. Thank you. Yes, I am mainly going to focus on updating my activities - gym, study, hobbies etc - and talk to him about his new plans.

[DaB35]

We chatted mainly about my work, his work and plans for a new business he wants to set up.

Interestingly, he said that XW had spoken to him recently and was asking - after everything was finalised - "Should I text Dab35 anything? It feels weird not saying anything to him," and apparently she was worrying quite a lot about what to say to me. He said to her, "Thing is, anything you say to him will be a bit of a kick in the teeth." He was right lol!

My mum believes XW may not have been ready for M, and that pressure from her family made her rush into it (I mentioned before that it was a BIG deal for her to get M done before she turned 30. Her parents M at 18, her sister at 22/23). Anyway, it is what it is now. It is good to discuss stuff like this with my family, but I'll keep it between us and don't moan about XW to friends etc. I know I've sorted myself out. Frustratingly, XW even said to "I have no doubt that you can change and get better" which made the whole D process more galling.

I just said I'm doing really well, and how my health and confidence has improved recently. That's about it.

Busy weekend lined up with stuff to do, so GAL still in full flow.

[Traveler]

y mum believes XW may not have been ready for M, and that pressure from her family made her rush into it (I mentioned before that it was a BIG deal for her to get M done before she turned 30.

That sounds plausible. The rest of us have said many times your ex-W's determination to leave and burn bridges seemed radically sudden, out-of-proportion to your one "crime", and very final. It seemed like an excuse. In many of our cases serious problems slowly festered, eroding trust and goodwill. Their impulse to leave or affair felt sudden and shocking, but we could see that festering in retrospect.

[DaB35]

Thanks CW.

Ironically, it was XW who last year said to me "Yeah, I don't think you were fully committed to M. Why else would you do what you did?"

Yes it was sudden.

[DaB35]

Had an eventful last few days. Lots of GAL.

Took part in a workshop on Saturday and met a few new people. I'd not normally go to things like this alone, but I thought I should now start doing this kind of stuff. Weirdly it was about 5 mins from XW and my first ever house that we rented back in 2012.
Then Sunday was busy - morning and afternoon in London then home.

Cleared a lot from storage at the weekend too. Even sold our old wardrobe for about twice as much as I thought I'd sell it for, so that's some extra savings there!

Been looking at new cars, so that's been a nice thing to do in addition to gym and studying etc., taking my mind of other things. Couple more test drives lined up for this week - keeping my options open.

Totally free weekend coming up, so need to spend this week trying to fill all that, but also promising that I'd book an afternoon of or morning of 'absolute nothing', which I always previously denied myself!

[DS9]

Hey Dan

Good update mate. What car you thinking? I'm picturing you in a Megane Rs or Focus ST, but I imagine given your accountancy background you'll be looking a Subaru Forester or Kia Sportage haha. Have you driven a V8? I know they're not popular int he UK, but here, they're everywhere. Test drive a V8 if you haven't. You'll be hooked.

Cheers, DS

[DS9]

PS - test drive the Hyundai I30N! It's a ripper.

[DaB35]

Hi DS.

Sometimes I think it'd be nice to just go to loads of dealerships and just test drive loads of cars. A huge range - Audi, Land Rover, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Ford. Just to have something to do! Then make very non-committal noises to the dealer and say 'I'll think about it'.

I've always liked the Subaru Legacy Outback - can't afford one though.

I have done a track day at Silverstone racetrack (my old job got it for me as a leaving present). Drove a V12 Aston Martin Vantage 3 laps - got up to 176mph down the final straight, and in the wet too as it was raining when I went out! Was exhilarating - loved it.

For everyday cars I need it to tick the "practical" and "boot space" boxes. I also like lots of creature comforts - cruise control, electric everything, parking sensors, extra safety features etc. I was looking at a type of hybrid (used to have one a couple of years ago, and loved it) as I'm not driving that much now. Unfortunately, the monthly payments were too high, or my deposit had to be very big, and I didn't want to eat into my house sale proceeds too much as I'm saving that for my own place in the near future. Also, after doing some sums, getting a small petrol engine with a particular type of auto gearbox fitted would give me virtually the same economy as a hybrid, and cheaper, because I'm not paying for the extra technology. Still efficient and less damaging to the environment than a big 3.0 diesel though.

One day I'd like to own a Tesla - perhaps when I win the lottery haha!

I went for a Toyota Avensis estate. Amazingly comfortable ride, light to steer, responsive, quiet, and a huge boot for my instruments (can get way more than just castanets in it lol). Almost top spec - has every option fitted (including panoramic roof), just doesn't have heated seats and full leather - I can live with that!

I worked the dealer hard (was there for over 2 hours) and haggled a lot off the monthly payments and got them to chuck extra freebies in to sweeten the deal. I read up on how to haggle and put the tips to good use. I'm now saving £400 a year straightaway, and I get a much bigger car for the pleasure of it!! My sister has now asked me to come with her to the garage when she needs to change car!

Picking it up later this week. Excited!

[DS9]

Oh dear lord, Dan - it's worse than I gave you credit for. An Avenis?! Isnt that like a underpowered Corolla? Lol

Anyway, each to their own haha.

Wish I had your forebearance and sensibility when it comes to cars. I base it solely on looks and kilowatts!

I'm excited for you mate. Getting a new car is always a happy time. Enjoy.

Cheers, DS

[DS9]

What shade of beige did you go for by the way? Lol

[ovrrnbw]

D,

nice update. I'm sure it will be nice to have the vehicle. I can't imagine living without one, but I live in a rural neighborhood. Do you live in town?

It sounds like things are going OK for you now, that's good!

[DaB35]

What shade of beige did you go for by the way? Lol

Haha very funny DS!
As I say, I go for comforts and practicality with a car - I have to. I'd love a sporty thing like a Supra or some kind of Subaru, or even a vintage classic Jaguar or Jensen if I had the cash. However, I need a big boot which is convenient for lugging gear around. I can't fit a drum kit in a Supra...if I bring more stuff in my car, it means I get paid more by the organisers

It's a nice gun metal grey by the way - beige is not a colour!

nice update. I'm sure it will be nice to have the vehicle. I can't imagine living without one, but I live in a rural neighborhood. Do you live in town?

It sounds like things are going OK for you now, that's good!

Thanks O. My parents' house is out of town but not much - just a few miles or so. When the weather picks up I can walk into work.

Gym is going well; upping weights on most things now. Sleeping well - getting between 6 and 7.5hrs a night. Feeling a lot better in general - healthy, much less stressed, certainly not depressed, much better self-image. Socialising more with work colleagues - we're talking about planning nights out etc.

Picnic - check
Lighthouse - check
GAL - definitely check

[DaB35]

Good weekend. Cleared out my storage place, sold a few more things, made a bit more money.
Intense cycling class at the gym on Sunday - really pushed myself.

On Sunday I met up with an old college friend as he was in a nearby town. We caught up and had a drink. He knows about my sitch but we didn't talk about it at all, which in a way was good. We talked about how he's moving further up north with a new job (and a much cheaper house), talked about studying, music, films etc. Got back quite late for a Sunday night! Slept well though.

Noticed my complexion is much better too - the grooming routine I've been working on for the last few months is working.

Although my D saga is over, I want to keep posting as I find this place a good way of just getting thoughts out and discussing things.

[DaB35]

Hi All

Hope everyone is keeping well in the light of these unusual times. Finally the UK has cottoned on to imposing stricter rules...still not total lockdown yet though.

Anyway, having had my freelance work all cancelled for the immediate future, for GAL I have been doing tons of research on looking after my new car and detailing. I spent 3 hours on Sunday doing the interior. Did a total clean - got stains out of the headliner, cleaned mats, hoovered, cleaned plastics, applied vinyl trim protectant, cleaned and protected the leather, etc. Got a nice Yankee Candle air freshener (Fluffy Towels) - smells lovely. Sad thing is I cna't drive it very much now due ot the restrictions of movement haha! Oh well, it was nice to do.

I'm reading up on what i can do with the exterior. So many products it's scary, but looking at a lot of YouTube vids and forums to get a better steer.

Work is fine. Been clearing a few things out of the house too which is good. Donating a lot to charity.

My sister rang to see how we were doing, and she mentioned that XW had texted her yesterday to ask about how my parents were doing. Sis said they had still been going out (albeit within well the rules that were in force at the time until today), but XW said "you must tell them to stay in!". I think they've got the message now. I have been thinking about how XW is - should I ask how she's doing? For the mo, I 'm going with NC if she hasn't contacted me directly?

Stay well everyone.

[DaB35]

Little update.

Things are going well working from home. My parents' house is near a field so I have a good view and can easily go for walks. I'm doing exercise at home. Might buy some of those resistance bands seeing as there is no space for weights etc.

Still doing lots of research into detailing, getting really interested in it. Have joined a forum and chatting to others for advice and guidance. Bought a load of stuff this week. Will need to do another big shop in the next day or so too. Looking forward to this being an enjoyable, therapeutic hobby.

Mentally, I feel in a really good place. Confidence hasn't waned at all, just keeping it consistent. Being busy and having time to do lots of things is helping a lot.

I still think about XW but it is not 24/7 and now I find myself stopping those thoughts after a few seconds, so I guess this means I'm more lovingly detached. I don't think it's got to the stage where I've fallen out of love with her or don't care about her at all - there'll always be something there as I spent 8 years of my life with her. For example, I see things on TV that I find funny and am a bit sad that she is not there with me to laugh about them too. Increasingly, I'm not worrying about what her friends/family are saying about me. Being on here has made me get into the habit of reminding myself that whilst they may think the lighthouse is rubbish, it's actually in a great state. I will continue.

Hope everyone is well.

[Traveler]

Hey Dab35, glad to hear you're finding detachment. Yes, that stage where most of the day I don't think about her but when romantic films come up I do is exactly where I was a month ago. Good stuff.

Detailing, huh? What aspect inspires you? I struggle just to keep my home and car not embarrassing! For me hiking is meditative--everything else falls away when you focus on strength, endurance, or nature.

[DaB35]

Thanks CW.

For detailing I find the whole thing fascinating. There is a ridiculous amount of choice with regard to products - pre-wash, snow foam, shampoo, polish, paint decontamination, wax, sealants, glazes, tyre dressings, wheel cleaners, even air fresheners and air-con cleaner sprays etc.You don't have to do EVERYTHING - some people go waaaay OTT - but I've just bought about £200 worth of stuff in total which is genuinely a *fraction* of what others can spend and have spent on their cars (they wax frequently and wash mroe than once a week or use the most expensive leather cleaners and use top of the range pressure washers and so on - you can spend thousands). You just choose your own routines after a bit of help and advice, and choose products you like the look of (and if the price is right!).

I think I'm attracted to the list-like 'process' nature of the activity. I like lists - that's the accountant in me I guess! I've even been working on a spreadsheet of 4 different cleaning routines - fortnightly, monthly, quarterly, bi-annually - with a comprehensive list of what to do, in what order, what tools I need at each stage etc. I find the creation of the list therapeutic too. Of course I just have a normal car that I don't intend to put into car shows, but it's the principal of just maintaining it and keeping it looking nice and prolonging it. I haven't really looked after my cars before; I've never crashed them or anything but I let them get very dirty. This one I want to look after!

Yes absolutely feel I'm finding detachment. No hate at all, just love mixed with a pang of sadness. But then I just head over to Spotify or Netflix and just chill out instead...

[DaB35]

Hi All. Have been silent for some weeks so thought I'd provide an update.

Working at home has its ups and downs. It's great that I can literally fall out of bed and get to work. At first I struggled to keep to my usual work hours and ended up working late just ot get stuff done, but I'm more in a routine now.

Going for a walk daily. We have a big field near the house so am exploring different routes each time. My mum comes with me most times too. We enjoy watching and listening to the birds. We even spotted a muntjac deer in one of the smaller fields so was nice to watch him for a bit.

What I've found is I'm filling my time easily. Books, TV, films, writing, walking, exercise. etc. I may buy a new instrument and learn it. I'm thinking hammered dulcimer. I've always loved the sound. I also bought a good microphone so I could do a split-screen video of me playing all the instruments I own doing an 80s song cover, which might be a fun project! I'm learning about the different techniques of using certain bits of software at the mo.

What is weird is that, as a divorcee, I do have the occasional flashback to R/M with XW. I don't feel sad, I don't feel angry. I just acknowledge the thought most of the time. Yes there are times when I feel frustrated at how everything went. I am annoyed at myself for not being stronger at the time, I'm annoyed that I just moved out immediately without arguing, I just did it; then I get annoyed that I didn't refuse to do anything related to the house sale or D. But they don't last long; before I would think it over and over whereas now it's fleeting. I'm sure XW's mouthing off still occasionally to her family/friends to justify her decisions. "It's easier for me to leave you" is what she said. I think it's actually been a lot easier for me than for her!

Strangely, I don't feel divorced. I just feel as thought I've been shoved backwards and off-kilter a bit, but I've now turned myself the right way and am moving in the right direction. The saddest thing? It's XW's loss! I've always held the view that people do and can change for the better, with the right type of guidance. She's missing out on experiencing that with me. I then just get back to my own thing and work hard at it.

So generally, feeling very positive about things.

[ovrrnbw]

D,

great update. Love your attitude. You really have grown through this. Look at the stuff you are doing now...I'm kinda jealous. My hobbies don't get near the time I wish they did.

Stay strong during those tough times and know that I share your pain. I may not have undergone the exact same thing but I wish you the best all the same.

[DaB35]

Thanks O. I hope things are working well for you. I will read up on your thread.

REFLECTIONS

Having done quite a bit of thinking I wanted to just summarise it all here. I realise that there is an argument of this being ‘a bit late’ or ‘after the fact’ seeing as D went through in February. I haven't stewed on this for months; I typed this up a while ago. However, from a cathartic aspect I’ve found this really useful to just put everything I've considered here, so I hope you’ll let me indulge. I’ve split it into 3 bits.

1 - ME
My parents don’t discuss things. I’ve grown up in an environment where if you’re not happy with something, you just deal with it silently. Both my parents are ill (various things: muscular illnesses, cancer remission, digestive problems). They pay for a private healthcare policy and I’ve lost count of the times I’ve suggested they actually get some use out of it, request some tests and try to get a second opinion to gain a bit more understanding. I feel they’ve just accepted the first thing a doctor told them decades ago, and have just accepted their lot. It frustrates both my sister and I. I keep suggesting it now, and the positive thing is at least my mum is being more receptive to getting some additional help.

My parents rarely argue. My dad is extremely passive. His dad died when he was 7 and had no male role model growing up in the 50s/60s. He therefore is closer to my sister than me; well it feels like it to me. Now I’m living with them, I do make a regular effort to engage him in conversation and I try to get his opinion on things and advice etc. It’s very hard with one or two word answers. But I am sticking at it still and not expressing anger, just validation and furthering the conversation. To this day, he hasn’t asked me how I have been. I believe he just doesn’t know how to deal with it. When my mum would cry about it at the beginning, I remember once watching him just sat there next to her, saying nothing for a few minutes, then he’d just get up and go upstairs to his room. I’ve realised that’s what I did in the R. If XW was upset about something…I WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT! Whereas, if she upset me I’d never say anything for fear of upsetting her further and creating a new argument. I’d just sit there like a scolded child. And I absolutely acknowledge that I created many covert contracts in the R, all the time.

I’ve grown up assuming that if I am not satisfied with a situation, there’s nothing I can do about it. This was my issue with my addiction. As a way of coping with years of bottling up frustration/fear/anxiety/sadness, even before I met XW, I deliberately chose to begin down a path that was so far removed from the usual ‘me’ as a wholesome person.

That gave me an excuse to compartmentalise it and ‘separate’ it from my everyday life. I’d not deal with it. I got in a cycle of thinking, “OK I feel down, I will go down this route. This temporarily removes those feelings I had, but now I feel terrible for doing this instead. I’ll just sweep it under the carpet and get back to normal life.” That went on for years. It got to the point that I would feel a negative feeling then scuttle off and simply look at a site or send a quick one-sentence online message to another woman, not because I wanted to message them or missed them, but because I just felt I had to stop feeling sad/anxious/stressed.

I was so happy with XW when we met initially – here was someone I had lots in common with finally – and so thought my problem would just go away of its own accord. It didn’t because I didn’t acknowledge the severity of it and the extent my poor self-esteem issues would build up over years and years.

I felt that I hadn’t achieved what I should have done. I had plans to go down a specific route after Uni/college, and this didn’t happen. Partly was down to my parents being as naïve as I was in hoping things would work out - they are not from that background either so couldn’t steer me in the right places - and also not being confident enough to move forward or not having the guts to work out what I needed to do. Again, NGS – waiting for stuff to happen rather than taking the lead. This increased my depression and made me stressed. The stress manifested itself as severe psoriasis on my scalp. That really got me down as XW would always point it out (sympathetically however, with no derision at all). The depression furthered the addiction; a temporary quick way out.

I then made a drastic change of career in my early 30s so what I originally wanted to do became my main weekend hobby. Even then I felt like a weak man because it was only after XW’s encouragement. I didn’t do it off my own back. I love my new job now and don’t regret that. I can still do my other passion on a regular basis and still earn a bit of money from it.

Because of this I felt inadequate to XW as a partner compared to her sister’s H or XW’s brother. Her family all had “worked out” their careers. They’d decided they wanted to do something, landed that job and did it. Then they were promoted and were earning good money. XW’s BIL is a vet and a professor; his dad is a millionaire, and when BIL was in his twenties he had a financial advisor. I’d feel so threatened (and probably jealous too) when we’d visit them. He’d go on about investments or politics etc. I couldn’t add much. How did he know so much about this stuff? I had literally no idea. I always thought he looked down on me. That could be utter rubbish. I’ve never mentioned that to anyone except my therapist and my sister.

Part of the reason of the addiction was I felt unattractive. I’m not overweight at all – I’m very skinny and in fact, slightly underweight for my height, just not very toned or strong. I’d feel jealous or upset when XW would comment on a very toned male body on TV or film etc. Of course, the right solution for an Alpha is to go “OK, I’ll go to the gym.” Nope. As a Beta, my NGS meant that I would be passive aggressive. As a result our sex life was very sporadic. She then said she felt unattractive, but at the same time I would feel the same way because she’d always complain of “feeling ill”. She did have genuine ailments though. I would let that add to my depression, so I wouldn’t make a HUGE effort to woo her. I’d buy nice gifts – which she was always grateful for – and do little acts of service as my love language (cleaning, making dinner, helping with paperwork), but wouldn’t show physical affection, like throwing my arms round her as she walked through the door if we hadn’t seen each other for a few days, as I thought that’s not what she wanted.

It was yet another cycle. She felt as though I didn’t want her, and so didn’t make a move on me. I thought she was ill all the time and also didn’t find me attractive or was unhappy with the way I looked, coupled with me feeling low about the way I looked too. So I didn’t make a move on her. The result was low libido from both of us, far removed from how we were in the first few years of the relationship. I admit that there were occasions when I would deliberately not instigate sex if she upset or annoyed me. She doesn’t know that. My addiction on top didn’t help of course.

I’d always feel that I had to please her. I had a long commute to work when we bought our house. I would stress myself out driving home. If I was ten minutes late due to traffic, I’d get a phonecall from XW saying “Where are you? Are you nearly home?” I’d even lie to her and say I was further up the motorway than I actually was to avoid her feeling let down by me. I stressed so much that I got a speeding ticket one day because I’d left work 15 minutes later than planned, so broke the speed limit trying to make up time to get home. When I would start falling asleep at 10pm XW would moan and say “Go on then, go up to bed and be boring.” I’d stay down to please her, but then it made me resent her feeling that way. Cue addiction cycle. Another minor thing, say I put a new item of clothing in the wash and the colour ran so it came out faded, she’d really lay into me for that. So I’d feel really down about it; I’d let her down again. I’m not worthy. Cue addiction cycle again.

On a work night out, I’d say yes, so it might be the Xmas meal. After dessert, I would clock watch and say to myself “OK I’ll leave at 9.30 so I’m not back late.” That was to avoid me fearing XW being angry at me for coming back late. Yet she would go on holiday for a week with her old Uni mates on a ‘no partners’ holiday and I was fine with it.

I used to be a member of a community group that met twice a week. When we bought our house it meant I was coming home at 10-11pm twice a week on a weekday. XW didn’t like that. One day she just exploded and said “I hate how you still go there. I’m so lonely.” Even though I’d suggested she join the group too, I’d end up lying to the organiser saying I was ill, late from work, on an off-site visit and was stuck in traffic, car broke down etc., anything to avoid going so I could come home at 6pm instead and be with XW at home. But me going to that group was one of the times where I was truly happy; I was in the zone and my addictions weren’t a problem. I was respected there and had a good level of confidence. I feel sad I don’t do it anymore.

The thing is, a lot of these issues are no more now. I realise why I felt the way I did.

[DaB35]

2 - XW

XW’s upbringing has given her a very binary view of the world. It’s X or Y. There is never any grey middle ground. A strict religious childhood has caused her to have a guilt complex and also severe Imposter Syndrome in all aspects of her life, and also feeling obliged to please others and help out to the extent that she never said no.

As an example, growing up her family had no TV, because her mum admitted that at the time she wanted to be ‘the most Christian’ in the town they lived in – there was apparently competition amongst mums in some parts of the UK in the mid80s! - and so banned TV in the house. XW would tell stories of hysterically devout schoolteachers admonishing her publicly in the playground for kissing a boyfriend on the cheek when she was in junior school; her alcoholic gran verbally abusing them when she would visit the family home to take care of her and her siblings whilst her parents were away on holiday. Subsequently, both XW and her sister have regularly expressed feeling guilty over having sex full stop, even in their 30s.

She’d be overwhelmed, inconvenienced, and would then grumble to me all the time about how her friends may have taken advantage of her, or let her down somehow. Lots of examples: we’d always be the ones travelling to her friends’ houses. They’d hardly ever visit us, and when we’d try to organise something at our house, they’d usually drop out or cancel. One of her closest friends flatly refused to pay for her bridesmaid dress, even though at the time she was earning more than XW. XW paid for the dress out of our planned wedding fund, and the friend never paid her back. She is still hurt by that as she brought it up in the years after our wedding. Her brother and his wife don’t drive, so when we would visit her parents 300 miles away, we’d of course have to take a detour to pick them up. That is fine in and of itself, but XW would always moan to me privately that they never offered to pay for our fuel etc.

She is also a bit of a sheep, in that peer pressure really gets to her. At Uni (before I knew her) she was a heavy party animal, boasting of drinking people under the table, vomiting after a night out, smoking, and so on. Likely a rebellion against her more straitlaced younger years. Even one of her Uni mates said after we got married, “you’ve become really boring now” and I always felt that was a slight dig at me because I was teetotal (for no other reason than simply choice) and XW had ‘calmed down’ somewhat from being with me. But this was precisely one thing she loved. “He levels me out,” she’d say happily to her friends and colleagues and would hold my hand and smile at me as she said it.

When we were together, she’d smoke still when socialising without me, even though she’d say she’d given up. I remember us going to a friend’s wedding and when a few people she was talking to went outside for a smoke, she just abandoned me and went out with them for half an hour. I had some friends to talk to, but I was still upset. As usual, I didn’t say anything about how upset I was and supressed it. It annoyed me that she was always saying “I’ve quit” when actually she would go back whenever she felt stressed or had a few drinks, and was surrounded by several others doing it. She would have girly nights with work colleagues and openly admit that she smoked. Again, I never said anything, because if I did pick her up on something she’d always come back with, “Well it’s my life, I can do what I <expletive> want.” Slightly immature response but there we go. If she was the only person in a room wanting to smoke, she wouldn’t do it. If she is indeed rebelling, I wonder who she’s rebelling against being in her 30s.

XW was always proud of saying she didn’t want kids. She’d proclaim to everyone and joke, “I’m too selfish. I like my own time. I like doing things on my own terms. I like being an aunty. That’s enough.” During our S she suddenly brought up the topic of kids. She was resentful and turned it onto me. “You were always so against having kids I went along with it.” Then, “What would you say if I had said I wanted to have a baby?” I have a very strong suspicion that XW’s sister has planted this thought in her head. XW’s sister has always been goading her to become a mum. Perhaps she wants to be an aunty too. Every time XW’s sister would ring and if XW happened to say “I feel a bit ill,” without fail every time her sister’s response was, “Are you pregnant?” This would frustrate me immensely (but due to NGS I never brought the subject up with XW). At the very start of S, XW lived with her sister for a month. Then in June, back at our house, she suddenly brought up the idea of being a parent. I don’t think that was a coincidence.

I’ve mentioned this before – I’ve always felt XW’s sister has a degree of control over her. Always telling her what to wear, eat, where to live, what to say, what to do. XW told me when she was younger she had short hair and was a bit of a tomboy. She wouldn’t wear ‘girly’ clothes, instead opting for loose fitting stuff. Her sister was embarrassed by her to the point that she’d introduce her to her own friends as ‘her other brother’. When I first met her (XW and I had dated for about a month) she was so rude to XW in front of her entire family and me. They were talking about moving home, and when XW’s mum asked her how her job was going, her sister suddenly turned to XW and laid into her for five minutes, pointing at her and swearing (in front of her 2 year old) saying how she “didn’t have a proper job” and “shouldn’t just be working a few hours a week” and “needed to pull her socks up and sort her career out”. She was literally shouting. I remember that because it was so shocking. It's like she still saw XW as a little 10-yr old girl who didn't know what she was doing.

The most worrying things were (a) XW was so timid and was meekly justifying her choices yet agreeing with this onslaught, (b) that one sibling would speak to another like that at all, let alone in front of a room full of people including a new boyfriend and (c) that her parents said nothing and made no effort to defend her.

XW’s sister has had very little control in her life. She got married in her early twenties and apparently lots of things had been decided for her. She's moved around the country only because her H is furthering his career. She would constantly say there are lots of things she would do differently if she had more of a say on her wedding. She therefore took over a lot of our wedding plans, and XW let her do it. She even made XW change her mind about the bridesmaids’ dress colour, and not an insubstantial one (dark green to pink), mainly because her sister liked a different, more expensive type of dress instead, whereas XW preferred the original green ones, but just went along with it, again aiming to please. Cue lots of other bridesmaids returning items, ordering again, returning again because the sizing scheme was different for this retailer compared to the old one, and lots of grumbling!

XW always looks up to her sister and I’ve never known why. She is aggressive, dismissive, humourless, overly animated which is extremely tiring, loud, manipulative, and never sticks at anything she’s good at. She set up an award winning business and quit within a year because she “got bored”. She spent over 10k on a new musical instrument and doesn’t play it - it’s just an ornament in her house now. She has lots of talent in various fields but just sits on it. Yet XW seems to idolise her but she is the more creative one and genuinely furthers her skills which I was only too glad to support. Apparently when they were younger her sister was stunning and all the boys at school chased after her, whereas XW never got a look in. I never saw it myself. XW is WAY better looking and has a much more attractive personality.

So, me putting two innocent pics of XW’s sister in a chat with one of the women I was sexting online was due to passive aggression. I felt frustrated at her for the way she’d treated XW and her general demeanour, so it was like taking her down a peg or two. It felt like I was scoring points off her. Massively immature, yes. It was stupid to do. But in discovering this, XW naturally felt it was because I felt attracted to her sister more than her. Absolutely not the case. I dislike her, and have always been quite guarded around her ever since I first met her when she laid into XW.

Again, something else I’ve mentioned is that perhaps XW felt pressured to get married. Her parents were married at 18 and her sister at 22. It was a BIG deal for her to get married before she turned 30. She brought up the matter MANY times. My sister got married at 31. It was never brought up in any conversation. My parents got married in their 30s – no harm done.

So, contradictory would be a good word here.

3 - US

I felt I was not a 100% worthy H for XW. I felt I couldn’t open up to her about my problems, or explain that she’d upset me, or that I was feeling depressed. One crucial thing was that XW has copied her sister with regard to this – being very dismissive of mental illness, even though she has acknowledged to me that there is “a history of mental illness” in her family. She and her sister adopt a “stop feeling sorry for yourself, get on with it, stop moping about” stance. This is extremely unhelpful for someone who is depressed as it shames them even more and makes them feel worse. So I never brought up my issues with her because I feared she’d react like that.

My regret is when she discovered everything she said, “I expect you to move out and take all your clothes. I don’t want any of your clothes in the house when I come back.” And I just did as I was told. Weak. So weak. Also, during the D process I had no choice but to speak to certain people along the way because I dealt with all the paperwork for the house, and all the accounts etc. were in my name only, so they wouldn’t speak to XW. I didn’t want to do it but had no choice. When really, I should have put my foot down and said, effectively, “No, I’m not going to help in any way and I’m not moving out. Here are the passwords. Do it yourself.”

Some of you know that she decided within 24hrs to separate and then D. I have always felt that when it comes to a long term R, if one partner finds the other has done something very wrong or very hurtful, to simply throw it away immediately suggests that the R is a one-size-fits-all and they could be with anyone. The partner is expendable and doesn’t matter. I tried to explain this to XW but of course logic was never on her menu, and I get that.

This is not to say we didn’t have happy times. We would laugh every day, absolutely. We made each other laugh. We had similar tastes in music, TV, films. We were good at pop culture references (think quotes from TV shows applied to certain real-life situations). We cooked together. We liked similar food. We both liked animals and nature.

We both enjoyed cuddling on the sofa. We support similar things charity-wise. There were so many positives about our M and R. I just wish I was brave enough to open up to her, and wish that we took MC. I also wish I found DB earlier.

NOW
I do not have an addiction. My posture is now better from yoga and the gym. My psoriasis has gone. I feel better about my body. I have self-worth. My skin is better. I walk taller, more confidently. I am actively networking with regard to my main hobby. I have new hobbies too.

I speak to friends; I reach out to them first now. I validate in conversations more. I feel closer to my parents and sister. I make efforts to keep conversations going rather than dwindling. I say yes to work nights out when invited; I make an effort, wearing smart waistcoats etc., and have a good time. I go places alone. I know I can spend five minutes scrolling through Netflix to decide what to watch without being fearful of getting shouted at for taking to long to choose something.

This was after 6 months of therapy. Absolutely worth it. I am excited about the present. I do look back sometimes. I miss XW but it is not a searing pain. It’s more frustration and remorse. But, I am a lighthouse. I am having a picnic. I’m just getting on with it.

If you got this far, thanks!

[dunnm]

(((DaB35)))
You have done a lot of work, Mrs DaB35(2) will (unknowingly) appreciate it.
Keep on keeping on.

[ovrrnbw]

Hey man,

that was a bit of a read there. You put a lot of thought into it, I can tell that. Sometimes it's good to think everything through, but then you have to kind of leave it and there too and get on with your life while revisiting it to make sure you aren't falling back into old habits.

I would boil it down to some goals like:

1. Work on NGS
2. Gym and attitude
3. Fun (GAL)

You are a good dude and if you keep this up some lady is going to fall into your lap when you aren't even expecting it.

[job]

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Turning lots oc corners - DaB35 Part 8