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Originally Posted by ScottB
When will I know that she wants to reconcile? Or work on things? Does she need to say she is committed to the marriage? What does that look like, how will I know? Is it presumptive or explicit?


You will know when she wants to reconcile when her actions are consistent towards that for a long period of time. Do not listen to her words. She may say she is committed to the marriage, but do her actions reflect that.

As far as what it looks like, or how you will know. Trust me, you WILL know.

We have a saying around here: "When your spouse was to come back to the marriage you will know. When they don't you will be confused."

It will be explicit. You won't be able to miss it. It will look a lot like it did when you were first getting together.

However, it is kind of like a watched pot. It won't boil while you are watching it. So again, take the focus off of her. Put it on you. Make yours kids your priority, and GAL, improving and detaching your next priority. Give her time and space to figure out her own stuff.

You got this Scot!!


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Scotty B,

I agree with Steve that if she wants to recon you will know.

Having said that I don't see that happening for a really long time. Right now she has zero incentive to work on the marriage. Michelle talks about relationships being a like a see saw and when one person is working on the relationship the other one isn't. My guess based on your writings is that for the majority of the relationship you were the one in control. Well guess what, the one who cares the least is the one in charge and she isn't going to give that power up anytime soon.

I lived your life and it is exhausting. Just know that whatever happens life will go on and you and your kids will be just fine.

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Steve and LH,

Thanks for the conversation. I really appreciate it. This is really tough to go through and I’m trying not to take all my friends and family through it so i appreciate you taking time to write.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by ScottB
Steve and LH,

Thanks for the conversation. I really appreciate it. This is really tough to go through and I’m trying not to take all my friends and family through it so i appreciate you taking time to write.

Thanks.


yeah, I can understand that. In my sitch I told no one. There are good reasons for not sharing everything with people, especially if R is ever a possibility. Telling everyone how horrible she is, then trying to get them to accept her again if you get back together becomes problematic.


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So, I told my shrink that I wrote stuff. He had me read some of it and he teared up, which was oddly validating and made me curious. So I tried another piece on a colleague. She cried too. I think I might start writing more. Maybe that’s a good outlet.

Anyhow, this is something I just wrote on what it’s like to be a man. You have to be tough. And when you expose how you feel, those who see weakness come for you.

Maybe it will strike a chord with someone. Fortunately this is relatively anonymous risk feels low.

And there is a picture to go with it but i couldn’t get it in here.

Sorry to go off topic.

The Joker’s Box
————-
She doesn’t think I feel. None of them do.

Haha, I laugh, the jokes on you.

It’s here inside, so full there’s not much room.
So full
of
all of it.

More than you could know. More than you could stand.

Oh I laugh, for you to think the steel cold runs deep and through, it just isn’t true.

You’re a fool.

It’s here.

So much is here.

The heat, the cold, the fury, the fear of growing old. The passion, the love, a tender warmth like sun from above.

There are daisies, waving in a field.
There’s a rake, to stoke coals I believe are real.

There’s rivers of depth, deep greens and blue.
And blackness, darkness, only seen by a few.

I smile, satisfied that you know for at least a while.
And my heart laughs again to know that it will pass, you’ll forget, you’ll move the dial.

And you’ll wonder where did it go that sight I saw, the light I knew;
but the box is locked now, for I had trusted you.

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I’m reading through No More Mr Nice Guy and I don’t agree with all of it but I do think he’s on to something and I can see a good bit of this in me. On page 65 he talks about Walls. I didn’t think I had any, but when he writes about different examples I realized I was wrong. My wife has been so critical of me that I’ve built a huge freaking wall. Every time she threatens me or rejects me I add another brick. I try to look perfect so she won’t leave, I’m seeking her approval, and this has made me “vague, slippery, lifeless, and uninteresting.” It also makes me want to get sick.

Interesting book. I’ll keep reading it.

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Scotty B,

Everything I read on here is about how this is all your Ws fault. Based off the information that you’ve provided about the books your W is reading she has walls up too.

You have to take down those bricks one by one. It doesn’t happen over night.

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Obviously I’m trying to work this out, and I don’t know if this is the best forum for that but I’m recording my thoughts and feelings here, I guess because some folks on here have provided some interesting ideas and thoughts.

I’m just really struggling with the idea that my wife says I put myself first ahead of her and the kids. But I read the NMMNG book and he constantly says I need to learn to put myself first, which I don’t think I do at all. So her words and my feelings don’t line up, this creates cognitive dissonance and confusion.

I’m asking myself, am I selfish? Do I put myself first already and would doing more of it only make things worse? I’m really torn and confused. But I’ll keep reading, maybe I’ll come to a conclusion I can use.

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Did she give you any examples?

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Scott,
I thought of myself as selfish and I believe W saw me in the same light. After reading NMMNG and doing self reflecting, I learned that I put myself at the bottom of priorities. I'd hurry home from work every night to spend time with the kids for their benefit or to alleviate W of her stresses. I went in the office instead of working at remote locations to give them space at home. I'd ignore my friends for more family time. A lot of this was done out of fear of how W would react or how the kids would turn out if I was around less.

Since BD, I've gotten selfish and you know what...it's great. I feel good from exercising, have more energy and my interactions with the kids while less, they are of higher quality. Mentally after reading books, my communication has improved, my friendship strengthened and I made two new friends. Being selfish is helping those around me.

Take the time, be selfish.

My W while still on the fence has noticed and mentioned the changes, which I am doing for me now and not her or the marriage.

See what happens if you give yourself the time and focus. Bring your thoughts inward. This will increase your attraction in all kinds of ways. Hard to change the mindset and I still struggle yet it is doable and worth it for you to give yourself time and mental energy.


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Not the last time, she didn’t want to start a fight.

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It was a part of a larger conversation

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Can you enlighten us?

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Originally Posted by ScottB
Obviously I’m trying to work this out, and I don’t know if this is the best forum for that but I’m recording my thoughts and feelings here, I guess because some folks on here have provided some interesting ideas and thoughts.

I’m just really struggling with the idea that my wife says I put myself first ahead of her and the kids. But I read the NMMNG book and he constantly says I need to learn to put myself first, which I don’t think I do at all. So her words and my feelings don’t line up, this creates cognitive dissonance and confusion.

I’m asking myself, am I selfish? Do I put myself first already and would doing more of it only make things worse? I’m really torn and confused. But I’ll keep reading, maybe I’ll come to a conclusion I can use.


Believe nothing, NOTHING, she says. That means nothing.

You're making the classic LBS mistake of taking what she says at face value. You know whether or not you did what she accuses you of. She is making excuses for her actions. If it wasn't that then it would be some other made up crap to try to justify her actions. Don't fall for it. You listen and validate. Go read the latest post on R2C's quote thread. AS explains perfectly what validation is and is not.

But stop taking her words as spears to the heart. She's in lala land right now. She wouldn't know the truth of it bit her on the nose!


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Oh, and look up gaslighting. Almost all WASs do it at some point.


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Originally Posted by ScottB
I’m just really struggling with the idea that my wife says I put myself first ahead of her and the kids. But I read the NMMNG book and he constantly says I need to learn to put myself first, which I don’t think I do at all. So her words and my feelings don’t line up, this creates cognitive dissonance and confusion.

I’m asking myself, am I selfish? Do I put myself first already and would doing more of it only make things worse? I’m really torn and confused. But I’ll keep reading, maybe I’ll come to a conclusion I can use.


I get it! This resonates so much with me and what I went through after BD. After BD we all beat ourselves up to the point that we question everything about ourselves and the way we've been living our lives. But here's the thing Scott, your W is engaging in rewriting of history. She wants out of the M, and she has created a narrative built on truth, half-thruths and outright lies to support it. She's blasting this narrative at you to "explain" her irrational behavior and lay the blame firmly at your feet. And to make matters worse, she probably believes the whole mess. She HAS to believe it because the alternative is that SHE is the problem, and she is not ready to face that demon yet. So here is what you must do:

1. Listen and validate. As I preach here often, validation is NOT accepting blame. It is merely listening to her feelings and acknowledging them. It's a way of letting her know you HEAR her and you ACCEPT her feelings even though you may not AGREE with them.

2. Evaluate her complaints. Are you really a terrible dad or a couch potato or an alcoholic or whatever? If you're not sure then seek out IC and discuss it with them. Keep in mind her claims may be greatly exaggerated or just outright false. She's in a fog right now and her fog prevents her from seeing clearly. So you have to sort out the truth from the BS, which is where an IC can help. Come up with a list of 180's that you think would benefit you and those around you.

3. Implement your 180's from above. These are life changes for YOU. She will see them as tricks at first, that's why you have to do it for you and not her. Stick to them long enough and she will come to believe you really have changed, and that might attract her back. But even if it doesn't you will be a better person for the effort.

4. Give it time. You need time to work on yourself. Your W needs time to sort out her thoughts and feelings. How much time? A lot. Sometimes a turnaround can happen in less than a year, 1-2 years is more likely, and especially in MLC 2+ years is the norm.

Time will drag by at first, but when you are years down the road you will look back and think it all transpired rather quickly. It's been almost 8 years post-BD for me and it all seems so distant and fuzzy now. So much has changed in my life since then. I thought my life was over after BD, and it was. THAT life was over. But it wasn't the end of the novel like I thought, there were many more chapters after that one. Beautiful, fulfilling, colorful chapters that I never even imagined before.

Also I completely agree with Core on making "you" time. I'm not sure I would really call that being selfish though. This is your life, if you spend it all serving others then you lose yourself. You become beta. An alpha takes time for himself because he understands that in the long run it benefits him AND those around him.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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I just read the 8 signs that someone is in a relationship with a gas lighter and it literally blew my mind. It was like the author, Preston Ni, was messing with me.

And LH, it’s the conversation from last Sunday. I already wrote about it. It’s just rattling around in my head.

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Hi ScottB,

This talk?
Originally Posted by "ScottB"
She asked for my list of things that “were wrong with her.” I said intimacy and empathy. It was not that straight forward, the conversation started with soft start up. I mentioned that sometimes I feel like she hypocritical. Anyhow, she wanted examples and I said i didn’t want to talk about it at home.

Scott, this is a key time to listen to how your partner feels and what actions are upsetting them.

Originally Posted by "ScottB"
I began making dinner about 60% of the time and more from there. Now in November she quit her job without anything lined up and she still wants me to make dinners, help out around the house, drive the kids to school and activities. She plays tennis twice a week and is working to change careers because she says that if she doesn’t work things don’t work for our family (she claims that I don’t respect her and she doesn’t have an equal say when she doesn’t work).

It doesn't sound like you respect her as a stay-at-home partner. You pointed out she's not working and "still wants [you] to make dinners, help out around the house, drive the kids to school and activities. She plays tennis twice a week." I'm not there to observe and say if she's lazy (and you'd be right not to respect her) or she's already working 7-8hrs/weekday around the home and you're expecting her to work more than a full-time job. Definitely examine why you're making dinner 60% of the time instead of 50% of the time if you resent that or expect something in return for going slightly beyond your fair share.

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So we have MC tomorrow. I’m feeling angry and resentful. I can control it but I don’t want to be a doormat anymore. I wanted to talk with my divorce coach before it but he’s not available. It should be interesting. I’m real tempted to focus on being authentic, honest, and not holding back.

And I don’t mean that in a mean and nasty way. Just more honest and expressive, less concerned and reserved.

Thoughts?

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CWarrior: I have been listening and fixing myself going on four years. I’ve made lists, changed countless behaviors, she is always in to the next thing I’m doing wrong. I think that at some point it’s on her. I’m not saying I won’t continue to improve and try to become a better me, I’m just saying that at some point she has to stop threatening to leave to get what she wants. I’m being to feel manipulated.

And I would respect her as a stay at home partner, but we would need to discuss expectations around that role. I know it’s not me doing half the housework on the weekends so she can play tennis and workout and go to lunch and walks with friends.

And I encouraged her to quit a job to find something she really loved (thinking that would help us, but it hasn’t). But I struggle to do half the chores, have her spend her free time as she sees fit, call me selfish, refuse to work on the marriage, and have me completely support her life style. That isn’t going to work long run.

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So this is crazy. My wife’s mom is more or less abusive towards her dad. For years the behavior was bad but he was able to defend himself. Now he has dementia and he can’t. So I read up on gaslighting and it was so obvious that her mom is doing this that I did share it with my wife. She literally was just on the phone with her parents and was commenting on this exact behavior. She said “I know what it is because I think you do that to me.”

Holy smokes, are you kidding me. I said, I feel the same way, maybe that’s something we can talk about in counseling tomorrow. I’m sure that’s not divorce busting 101, but that happened.

And it was not in an anrgry contemptuous tone. It was more matter of fact, I’m letting you know how I feel - like you have discovered one of my secret thoughts tone.

Her parents came up because her mom reached out to me and asked me for help with something.

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Typical projection. We see this all the time. A cheating walkaway spouse blames the LBS for cheating. Remember, her words and actions should be like water off a duck's back to you. Just do not let it affect you. Be strong emotionally. Like a rock. At least outwardly if not inwardly.


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Geez, it didn’t stop there. After we put the kids to bed, first thing she brings it back up. She said, I think we should talk about that from earlier. I said ok. She asked me why I felt that way. I explained that for the last four years I’ve been making changes and ever time I make a change she brings something else up and that some of the things don’t align with how i see myself. So either I’m incredibly un-self-aware or something else is going on. I asked her why she felt the way she did and she said because I turn every situation around and make her the bad guy. She asked where i learned about it and i said a book. I asked her the same and she said an article on Facebook. She then shut down the conversation, said she was getting mad and didn’t want to talk about it anymore and that we could talk about it more in MC tomorrow. I asked her why she was angry and she said she felt that I baited her. I said I could understand how she could feel that way but that I was trying to help, though I could understand how she felt.

That was the end of that convo. We then watched a little TV, I went up to bed and she said she wasn’t tired and stayed downstairs. She seemed pretty pissed. I feel like i want to go down and check on her, that’s what I would want someone to do for me, but I’m just going to go to sleep.

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I forgot to add that in one MC session, maybe our last, I expressed concern that i would end up like her dad and that I had a fear of her treating me that way I see her mom treat her dad. When she accused me of covertly bringing up the gaslighting she mentioned that as well. I said it was possible that subconsciously my mind brought it up for that reason but that I didn’t have a hidden agenda.

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Scotty B,

You're in a tough spot man. I made a lot of changes during the 1.5 years we were reconciling and I think it pisses them off because one they don't trust it and two it fuchs with narrative. When she says she's the bad guy she is right now because she wants and you are making changes and trying to save the marriage.

I

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So I’m reading NMMNG and I got to a section about how nice guys are bad Enders. Meaning they hold on to a relationship that is unhealthy too long and it makes me ask myself is that what I’m doing? Few books have tied me in knots like this one. It really hits me repeatedly in my core and makes me question things and look at things through a different lens. I’m going to have to reread the whole book and really think through what this means to me, who I am, who I want to be.

And I’ve never believed marriage should end. I believe in commitment, I believe that family is better for the kids and for grandkids. I believe in a shared history. But I’m just thinking, maybe I’m holding on to something that just isn’t healthy and just isn’t realistic. I’m really torn in knots.

Marriage counseling is going to be real tough in 30 minutes.

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Originally Posted by ScottB
So I’m reading NMMNG and I got to a section about how nice guys are bad Enders. Meaning they hold on to a relationship that is unhealthy too long and it makes me ask myself is that what I’m doing? Few books have tied me in knots like this one. It really hits me repeatedly in my core and makes me question things and look at things through a different lens. I’m going to have to reread the whole book and really think through what this means to me, who I am, who I want to be.

And I’ve never believed marriage should end. I believe in commitment, I believe that family is better for the kids and for grandkids. I believe in a shared history. But I’m just thinking, maybe I’m holding on to something that just isn’t healthy and just isn’t realistic. I’m really torn in knots.

Marriage counseling is going to be real tough in 30 minutes.


I agree that commitment is important, and living up to commitments is important. And I am morally opposed to D, which is why I spend so much time on this forum. I think the book is really talking about non-MR Rs, though certain MRs certainly could fit.

But holding on for the wrong reasons is bad too. I was asked by some of the experts I discussed things with "Why do you want to save this marriage?" Have you answered that question? I don't want to give the answers I gave because I don't want to poison the well. But it is a good exercise.

Can you articulate for us why you are trying to save your marriage?


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Originally Posted by ScottB
Geez, it didn’t stop there. After we put the kids to bed, first thing she brings it back up. She said, I think we should talk about that from earlier. I said ok. She asked me why I felt that way. I explained that for the last four years I’ve been making changes and ever time I make a change she brings something else up and that some of the things don’t align with how i see myself. So either I’m incredibly un-self-aware or something else is going on. I asked her why she felt the way she did and she said because I turn every situation around and make her the bad guy. She asked where i learned about it and i said a book. I asked her the same and she said an article on Facebook. She then shut down the conversation, said she was getting mad and didn’t want to talk about it anymore and that we could talk about it more in MC tomorrow. I asked her why she was angry and she said she felt that I baited her. I said I could understand how she could feel that way but that I was trying to help, though I could understand how she felt.

That was the end of that convo. We then watched a little TV, I went up to bed and she said she wasn’t tired and stayed downstairs. She seemed pretty pissed. I feel like i want to go down and check on her, that’s what I would want someone to do for me, but I’m just going to go to sleep.



You handled this pretty well. However, I would try to do less back-and-forth and more listening, validating, and deflecting. Don't ask her why she felt that way. The why doesn't matter. That is a cheeseless tunnel. Also, you need to be the one to shutdown conversations. "Sorry, I have some things I need to do." or "This is a lot to process, I need some time to consider everything." Stop being the "bad ender" you read about in the book.

Scott, a lot of this is about being an alpha! I am still seeing a lot of beta behavior here. Attraction for women starts with respect. So stop worrying about her being pissed. So what! She needs to be pissed. Her anger should be as much about herself as it is you. And truth be told, it probably is. But when she is mad don't try to fix it. That isn't your job.


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Scotty B,

You are not wrong in your beliefs. However you must keep in mind it takes two to make a marriage work.

You are also correct that a healthy man who loves and values himself would not stay in your situation for 4 years. He would try to work things out but is willing to walk away from a relationship that is not working for him. Like most people who find this place you are not ready yet because you are still acting out of fear. As you continue to work on yourself you will get stronger and then will no longer act based on fear and will act upon what is in your best interest.

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Thanks.

It doesn’t make this easier of course.

I’ll be shocked if you doesn’t drive the final nail in the coffin here in 3 minutes.

Looking forward to another bomb drop. Stay tuned.

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Scott,

Good luck brotha. Awaiting you post on the counseling session.

joejoe


M:37 W:37
T:11 M:10
S17, S13, S10, S4
BD:06/28/17
OM confirmed 07/20/17
Recon the M 10/29/17
Working hard:2gether

Onward and forward

This process is not a sprint it's a marathon! Patience, Patience, Patience.
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Good luck! Look forward to your update.

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So that was interesting. I walked in and the marriage counselor asked me what was going on, she sensed agitation. Also, I guess I’ve never gone in wearing casual clothes, so that threw her off to. To adlib, I said that I was agitated, that I had been doing a lot of work on myself, I talked about the meeting I had in my IC, and that i was reading a book that was making me think a lot.

There was no bomb drop, though I did feel negative energy from my S. I was very real and very authentic. It seemed as though the MC was impressed with me talking more openly about my feelings. My S didn’t have much reaction.

At the end of the session the MC asked if we wanted to come back and my S said “it’s up to him.” She had her phone out and was ready to schedule and I turned to her and said what does that mean. She then said that she wanted to come back to work on our issues and but she wasn’t sure where I was at.

She wasn’t willing to commit to the marriage but that was an interesting comment. I took her “it’s up to him” to mean that I was the one making us go, but after she said what she said I said okay, we’re on the same page then. We’re trying to figure out whether this will work or not. And we scheduled. It was interesting.

We got home and talked a little more. I said I was going to be working on myself and acknowledged that this book I’m reading had hit a sore and that it made me realize I do use covert contracts and that I have some stuff to work through that is mine. I told her I didn’t expect anything from her. And I said I was sick of holding back and not speaking my mind. She just listened. There were some other things there too but it’s just tough to capture everything in every conversation.

I did tell her i was proud of some things she’s done at work that took courage. She teared up and I did too. She was leaving the house to get a massage and came by to give me a hug on the way out of the house. I told her I loved her (in counseling she brought up that I never say that first anymore) and she left.

I also said in the conversation at the house that i was going to be changing and our marriage may or may not work out.

Anyhow, that’s the update.

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Originally Posted by ScottB
So that was interesting. I walked in and the marriage counselor asked me what was going on, she sensed agitation. Also, I guess I’ve never gone in wearing casual clothes, so that threw her off to. To adlib, I said that I was agitated, that I had been doing a lot of work on myself, I talked about the meeting I had in my IC, and that i was reading a book that was making me think a lot.

There was no bomb drop, though I did feel negative energy from my S. I was very real and very authentic. It seemed as though the MC was impressed with me talking more openly about my feelings. My S didn’t have much reaction.

At the end of the session the MC asked if we wanted to come back and my S said “it’s up to him.” She had her phone out and was ready to schedule and I turned to her and said what does that mean. She then said that she wanted to come back to work on our issues and but she wasn’t sure where I was at.

She wasn’t willing to commit to the marriage but that was an interesting comment. I took her “it’s up to him” to mean that I was the one making us go, but after she said what she said I said okay, we’re on the same page then. We’re trying to figure out whether this will work or not. And we scheduled. It was interesting.

We got home and talked a little more. I said I was going to be working on myself and acknowledged that this book I’m reading had hit a sore and that it made me realize I do use covert contracts and that I have some stuff to work through that is mine. I told her I didn’t expect anything from her. And I said I was sick of holding back and not speaking my mind. She just listened. There were some other things there too but it’s just tough to capture everything in every conversation.

I did tell her i was proud of some things she’s done at work that took courage. She teared up and I did too. She was leaving the house to get a massage and came by to give me a hug on the way out of the house. I told her I loved her (in counseling she brought up that I never say that first anymore) and she left.

I also said in the conversation at the house that i was going to be changing and our marriage may or may not work out.

Anyhow, that’s the update.


Scott, I do feel like your sitch is a lot like mine. Have you read my threads? I'd be interested in if you see the same thing or not. I feel good about your chances, but only if you do like I did and become the best version of you that you can be. My W was very hesitant to embrace the new me, but 2 years in now she has complete trust in me that I can be the man I've become for the rest of my life.


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I suck at navigating on here. Can you post the link so I can read them?

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Steve: I read a good chunk of your threads. Spent a lot of time, nearly 2 hours. There was some good advice in there from folks, and it was kind of funny at times when I could see you were setting yourself up to get clobbered by people on here.

I have a habit of espionage as well that I fight with. I want to have relationship talks to. But probably the biggest difference is how off again, off again we’ve been over a period of years. EA with a friend of ours started in 2015. I asked it to send from 6/2016 (didn’t know it was an EA but knew something was wrong) until 2/2017 when it ended. We started MC in 9/2016 - 11/2017 when she said it was over. Then 1/2018 she said it was totally over and I begged for six months, she gave me three.

I was really focused on making changes and inexplicably we had sex in 2/2018 and I unfortunately took that as a good sign. Around that time we started with a new MC.

Things got better and then worse (and how is that possible) until retrouvaille in 9/2018 and then things really got a lot better. But we stopped doing the daily dialogue (she didn’t like doing it) we had a MC session get missed and didn’t reschedule in May 2019 and then we just kind of lived. I could feel things slipping so in August I got us back in front of the MC, but I thought we were actually doing pretty well until stuff went bad in September 2019 when she said she was moving out. And now here i am 5 months later in complete limbo, or so it feels.

I do think I had a breakthrough in IC two weeks ago and I do think the NMMNG book is really good, I can see some tendencies though it’s not perfect. Based on that book I did check out a men’s group at a local church.

I did forget to add that at IC my wife brought up the fact I hadn’t said I loved her in two or three days and that I always made her say it first. She also brought up that at night I was only giving her one kiss (it’s goofy but we’ve always done three) and that the night before I didn’t even give her a kiss.

She also denied saying I was selfish ten days before (which I discussed here) in IC and said I was much better than I used to be. So I’m not sure if i misheard her or what.

I think Sandi posted on detachment in your post and so I’m going to reread those notes. Im also going to reread the 37. I started doing my own dialogue with myself (or journaling if you prefer) to continue to work on exploring my own feelings. Im really just going to try and focus on myself.

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Scott, I routinely go to my threads and read sandi's posts. Her advice is amazing and I was so lucky to have her posting in my threads.

"She also denied saying I was selfish ten days before (which I discussed here) in IC and said I was much better than I used to be. So I’m not sure if i misheard her or what."

This sounds like more gaslighting. I have a theory that a lot of times the WW/WAW doesn't even realize they are gaslighting you. I know in my sitch, my WW was pretty much saying what truth she wanted at that moment. "I never said you were......." when I knew for a fact she did. So yes, she probably said it because that is what she felt at that moment. Later on, when she realizes that you've been a lot better then she denies saying it because she really doesn't think she would have said it.

Also, sometimes people hear it differently than it is actually said. Maybe she said: "That particular action of yours was selfish." What you heard was "you are selfish" because you generalized her specific. Then later when you say, you said I was selfish, she says "no I didn't." You are both right. She was talking about a specific instance, you took it to mean you are always selfish. That happened a lot in my sitch. I think we as LBSs get overly sensitive and take things as universal, when in reality the may not be.

So start trying to pay attention to what she actually says. "When you did that it was selfish" is a lot different than "you are selfish".


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Originally Posted by "Steve85"
Also, sometimes people hear it differently than it is actually said.

I read a book called The Lost Art of Listening, which avoided many arguments between my ex-girlfriend and I. We moved away from debating what was SAID, towards what was INTENDED and what was HEARD. I.e., we stopped arguing about the words used to communicate and focused on what we each really meant.

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What’s the latest Scotty B?

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Well, I don’t know. At times it seems like things are improving and at other times I’m not so sure.

I took my daughter skiing this past weekend, just the two of us, which was fun. The next day I did some things around the house and then that night we had a party. Normally I won’t dance at that kind of thing though I want to, but my wife doesn’t like to dance. One of her friends was working hard to drag her out there and so i used it as an opportunity to get her out there and then i went to and danced the rest of the evening. We didn’t really dance together, I just focused on having fun. That night as we went to be I held her hand. Not sure if that was a good move or not but I believe I was 10 drinks in so I wasn’t very calculating.

On the next day I had to run some errands and I was very surprised that she volunteered to get with me. That is highly unusual. And I felt like she was more interested in me than normal. It could just be my mind playing tricks on me. Since Monday we have been back to normal though and we have counseling tomorrow which is always interesting.

We do have an interesting month going as each weekend we have plans. Another gala, going to the theater, and an out of town trip with the kids. I’m also trying to plan a ski trip with the kids and I have a guys trip in March so fortunately I have tons to look forward to, which is awesome.

I have a lot going on at work that is very stressful. I’m just trying to keep from being overwhelmed by everything, stay positive, and stay patient (long suffering as Steve would say). It’s a battle every day.

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Scotty B,


I feel you brother it is a battle everyday.

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Originally Posted by ScottB
Well, I don’t know. At times it seems like things are improving and at other times I’m not so sure.

I took my daughter skiing this past weekend, just the two of us, which was fun. The next day I did some things around the house and then that night we had a party. Normally I won’t dance at that kind of thing though I want to, but my wife doesn’t like to dance. One of her friends was working hard to drag her out there and so i used it as an opportunity to get her out there and then i went to and danced the rest of the evening. We didn’t really dance together, I just focused on having fun. That night as we went to be I held her hand. Not sure if that was a good move or not but I believe I was 10 drinks in so I wasn’t very calculating.

On the next day I had to run some errands and I was very surprised that she volunteered to get with me. That is highly unusual. And I felt like she was more interested in me than normal. It could just be my mind playing tricks on me. Since Monday we have been back to normal though and we have counseling tomorrow which is always interesting.

We do have an interesting month going as each weekend we have plans. Another gala, going to the theater, and an out of town trip with the kids. I’m also trying to plan a ski trip with the kids and I have a guys trip in March so fortunately I have tons to look forward to, which is awesome.

I have a lot going on at work that is very stressful. I’m just trying to keep from being overwhelmed by everything, stay positive, and stay patient (long suffering as Steve would say). It’s a battle every day.


Hey man, this is a great update. Remember, these things happen in baby steps. There was no one big event where my W was back all in. It was a slow turning, like a ship turns, over time. A baby step here. A baby step there. So I see baby steps here, and that is positive.

Keep up the good work. Yes, be long suffering. I'd also, as I always do, caution against drinking. I am anti-alcohol for a variety of reasons, but LBSs need to be in total control. Many a LBS' progress in DBing has been lost in a drunken attempt at some type of pressure and pursuit.


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Steve,

Don’t forget Scotty B has been at this for almost 4 years.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Steve,

Don’t forget Scotty B has been at this for almost 4 years.



So little, tiny, baby steps! smile


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Hahaha.

This is becoming comical.

We go to counseling today, all and all the session is going relatively well. The counselor was pushing for some commitment from us I would say, which she has done the last three times we've been there in regards to being willing to work on the marriage. And she was pushing on whether or not things were improving.

I'm not sure if it was the right thing to say or not. My wife said that things were not improving. I was asked for my thoughts. I said that it was hard. It was hard to know where the boundaries are. Last time we were there my wife seemed upset that I had stopped saying I love you and that I stopped giving her a kiss good night. So I had started back up. I said it was hard to know where the boundaries are. I said that limbo is hard, my wife agreed.

I said that I didn't know how it was going to get better if she remained half in and half out. Mind you she had just said that she couldn't commit and she agreed she was half in and half out, so she said she was out.

We got the name and number of a mediator. We did not schedule another time to go back to see the marriage counselor. I mean the song bombs over Baghdad just rings in my head. (Outkast, look it up).

WTF. I took it very very chill for better or worse. It didn't catch me off guard because for months I've just been waiting for her to put the final nail in the coffin. This is just comical to me.

So I went back to work. I'll finish up the day. I've got a happy hour tonight that I'll go to. I called to schedule a call with my divorce busting coach to work through some thoughts. Emotionally, I'm angry and frustrated.

I talked to a friend of mine who said there is no one she goes through with it. In the session, she said she was afraid.

I'm really tempted to make the first move (the call to the mediator) but I guess I'll wait till after I talk to my coach. Just incredible folks. It's hard for me not to laugh at the situation.

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Scotty B it is comical and it’s all about them and their feelings. They are too emotionally immature to understand that marriage is hard and takes work. They are looking for the affair high and think it’s going to last forever. Then they wake up one day and say WTF did I do?

You did everything a reasonable man could do to keep your family together. You’ll be just fine!

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LH,
In my situation, I feel like its different than that. I think she feels broken and numb and she is trying to fix it. When she looks around she sees me as the reason. I'm abusive, I make her feel bad about herself, its my fault she didn't have more children, I make her feel like a sex object, I'm not there to support her, I cut her down when she's at her weakest or make sarcastic cutting remarks, I don't appreciate her-- the list is long and I've literally kept a running list over the years.

But, the bottom-line truth of the matter is that it's not me. She is where she is because of the choices she makes. It's very sad, I feel bad for the kids. I'll be fine, not what I want and I'll continue to divorce bust because that's who I am.

I'm not sure at what point I'm supposed to say that I've had enough and walk away. I'm not sure when that time is, but in my DNA it's just not who I am. Oh well, we'll see what happens next.

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Well Scotty B if that is the case it sounds like your W is a narcissist and you may be better off in the long run.

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When a spouse is half in, half out....pushing them to choose will 99.99999% result in them picking out.

I am with your friend. I don't believe she is really out. I think she was pushed and gave that answer. I agree with not scheduling another MC session. I would suggest you remain patient and see if she follows through on "being out". I think if you remove all pressure and pursuit she will change her mind.


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Just because she’s out doesn’t mean she’s gonna run out and get a divorce.

So Steve, SB should give it another 4 years?

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Originally Posted by LH19
Just because she’s out doesn’t mean she’s gonna run out and get a divorce.

So Steve, SB should give it another 4 years?


He should give it until HE is ready to be divorced, with no emotional baggage, and can move on healthy and happy. He certainly shouldn't go file just to have an effect on her.

I don't get into time with these sitches. Some sitches should be resolved by the LBS saying "SEE YA" in 5 minutes. Some could take 5 years. Time is meaningless to me in these things. But clearly he is not ready to move on, and until he is....he shouldn't. I believe that to my core even if its been 40 years.


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I agree he should file when he’s ready.

I just think now we are getting into the definition of insanity with what’s going on here.

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Originally Posted by LH19
I agree he should file when he’s ready.

I just think now we are getting into the definition of insanity with what’s going on here.



Maybe. Then again, having been through it twice now I can say that these sitches are pretty insane all on their own.

If Scott comes back and says "I am ready to move on" then my advice will change to reflect that. Until then, from where I sit, 4 years in he is still trying to save this thing. He has the patience of Job (not the forum moderator!).


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Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.

I've never read that definition before. I thought it was something different. I continued to read up on it and though there are some things that seem to rhyme with narcissism, I'm not sure that's a perfect fit. She actually seems to have a very low self-esteem and a low sense of self-worth. She struggles with that, which is something newer. I think it started when we had our daughter. When my wife had a hysterectomy because of an emergency situation during the last pregnancy and then quit her job to stay at home with the kids' things started to go wrong.

I was not making enough money for us to live on and I was consistently telling her to watch her spending. I was working long hours and was so worn out when I got home that I didn't do much at all around the house. The house was always a mess and I know I didn't help and I didn't compliment her because my expectations were that she should have time to get everything done. That all took a toll and we were contemptuous with one another, full of criticism and defensiveness.

I remember one of her friends in October of 2015 saying that I treated her like a 1950's housewife and she really grabbed on to that and beat me up with that for a time. That is the same time the EA get started. We had our first dance with disillusionment in April when we were reading a book on relationships together and it talked about EA's and I realized that her friendship was more than a friendship.

We went on our ten year anniversary and 2 months later as I had been expressing concerns and while on our trip he was texting her at 2 am in the morning - not common behavior for a friend. On that trip, we had a huge fight. She told me all the things I was doing wrong and how if I didn't change she was going to divorce me. I told her that I would stay married to her no matter what even if it meant we were only together for the kids and had no relationship. She used that against me for about a year.

That's when I got started making changes. And ever since that June of 2016 I've been working to be a better husband. The guys wife was reaching out to me to ask me how we could stop the EA. She kicked her husband out. His mom got involved to try and end it. They continued to say it wasn't happening. I confronted her with evidence, she said we were making it into something it wasn't. All of her friends disassociated from her because the didn't want to be involved and they took the side of his spouse and me. Then when his wife caught them on video in the back seat of my car (tinted windows, so hard to know exactly what was happening), it finally ended in January of 2017. From 9/2016 through 11/2017 we were in counseling until she dropped a bomb or two during that time but the final bomb drop occurred in counseling in November of '17.

She didn't follow through. That was probably the 2nd or 3rd time. In January of 2018 she sat me down and dropped the bomb again. I begged for 6 months to work on our marriage. She said I'll give you three. We got a new MC and when April came, she wasn't ready to end it yet. From there she made occasional threats but didn't use the D word. In June of 2018 she said she needed a separation. I tried to work with her on figuring it out but for some reason she didn't follow through. As of September 2018 things we really dark as we started Retrouvaille but Retrouvaille was a huge blessing and really turned things around. We opened dialogue and started communicating better, we were talking, and getting along and really seeing one another for the first time in years. It was a renewal.

Through the first half of 2019 we stayed committed to counseling and Retrouvaille until May when marriage counseling got canceled and didn't get rescheduled. We also missed Retrouvaille monthly meetings through the summer. Her dad was suffering health problems, the kids became especially needy, I began to suffer my own work MLC, and her work began to take over her life. By August of 2019 I knew we were on a bad path and I scheduled us back in marriage counseling, but that first session back didn't go very well. It seemed to make things worse. Then we had a couple things happen over a small stretch of time and she bomb dropped me again with a separation in September of 2019.

Its been an all out battle since. No sex, no intimacy, continued marriage counseling with the constant threat of divorce. Her being unwilling to work on the marriage but also not ready to leave.

Four weeks ago I suffered through a bit of a tough stretch and I thought she was going to give another bomb drop two weeks ago but she held off. We had two pretty good weeks from there with some small increased intimacy, just a hug or two, spent more time together, and things seemed to be looking up, until yesterday.

2/6/2020 - Divorce bomb drop again. She went home, balled her eyes out from what I can tell, took off her wedding ring. I had a scheduled happy hour so we didn't talk last night. I kind of wanted to wait until I spoke with my divorce busting coach anyhow. So that's my next step. I spoke with three trusted friends and they all said I need to call this thing. I have one divorced friend who said keep fighting. I was doing better yesterday than today. My chest feels like it is going to cave in.

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So I spoke with my coach and was told that I handled the situation yesterday well. After the meeting, I gave her a hug and a kiss on the forehead. He thought the gentleness was good in light of what I went through.

Coach said that the question, whether she was in or out was a bad question. A better question would have been "on a scale of one to ten how in are you?" And then to follow up with if you are a 2 how can we move you to a 3. In or out implies 10 or 0 and backs her in a corner. If someone is scared and cornered they are going to lash out as she did.

So I'm going to find time to let her know that I think she was treated unfairly in our meeting. She was backed into a corner and at that moment she made the only choice she could and that it was hard to watch that happen.

Coach said to continue to treat me right. Show myself that I have value by taking care of me. Also said that when she brings up the past I need to find the truth in what she says, learn from it to become a better version of myself, to keep my heart open to feedback, and to tell her that I hate that I treated her that way when she brings up specific incidences if that's how I feel. Be authentic.

I need to work on empathy in the face of hostility, I need to be vulnerable in those moments and be ready for her to hurt me. To help myself deal with hurt (if she hurts me) I need to give myself strength by taking care of me -- to let myself know that I am valuable and have worth.

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So it sounds like you aren't giving up? Despite it being 4 years?

Just so we are all clear.


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Scotty B I wish we could sit down and have a beer because we have lived the same 4 years. It really all comes down to it becoming a perfect storm. Years of taking her for granite, low self esteem, EA, hormones/midlife transition, childhood issues and the being unable to forgive and it’s hello divorce busting website here we come.

You don’t have to give up. The only thing that means is not filing. Time will tell if she goes through with it. Time and space are the only thing that turn these things around long term.

Stay strong Scotty B!

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I'm going to work to be a good man. I'm not going to work to be perfect, I'm going to make mistakes, I'm going to work to improve from them and even that won't be perfect.

My marriage may end, and maybe it should, or maybe it won't, but I'm just going to try and be the man I think I should be. That's what I feel called to do. I hope to preserve my dignity through it. Be an example for my kids, get stronger as a person, feel more. Those are all goals.

To be clear Steve, I'm not giving up, and I'm not fighting either. I'm just going to try to be.

LH, I agree with everything you wrote.

I just wish I could figure out how to fall asleep and stay asleep till my alarm goes off. That would make my life amazing! There is nothing worse the going to be and laying there awake and then finally falling asleep to wake up again at 4am and lay there for another 3 hours. If I could figure out a good nights sleep I would be in great shape.

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Scotty B

Great last post! That is all you can do. It’s never too late to become the man you want to be. I went out with dignity and still am a work in process.

Work our early in the morning and kill it to you hit the sheets. You’ll sleep like a baby!

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Last night went as well as I thought it could go. Both of our kids were with friends which just left the two of us together. We talked for a long time, the flow got a little choppy at a point when neither of us had much to say. I told her that i didn’t think it was fair the way she was treated at MC and she said that she meant what she said but the tone softened a little. We got interrupted and never came back to it as I left it for her to bring up if she wanted to.

We have an event tonight and she asked if i still wanted her to go and I said yes. I asked her if she wanted to go and she said she thought it was important that we still support each other. It will be interesting to see whether or not she wears her wedding ring to the event.

We watched a show and went to bed.

The nighttime ritual was normal except I gave her a kiss on the forehead that wasn’t returned and i said i love you which wasn’t returned. Again, remember, two weeks ago she had said that i wasn’t saying I love you anymore and that had bothered her as well as that I had changed up giving her a kiss at night. I didn’t expect anything in return because of the previous days events. It will be interesting to see how she pushes to get us to a mediator or if I am served with papers.

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Scotty B

I agree it could have been worse. Have you seen a lawyer yet? It wouldn't hurt to get a fee consultation.

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Think melatonin for better sleep...

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I may try melatonin. I was debating that. Thanks Vapo.

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So I was re-reading The Divorce Remedy and one of the things that I had missed in the past was The Last Resort technique, which I think is where a lot of advice on the message board starts. Prior to engaging with this technique, these questions are spelled out:

1) Your spouse has said in no uncertain terms that they want a divorce and they mean it. It wasn't said at an emotional time.
2) You are separated.
3) You and your spouse are living together but have little to do with one another. Sleeping in different rooms, no communication, and little or no sexual contact.
4) Your spouse has filled for divorce.

From my perspective, the first point is actually not true at this time. We are close, but she was very emotional. She seems like this is how she feels but she hasn't followed it up. We are not separated. We live together, sleep in the same room, have good amounts of communication, but no sexual contact at all. And she hasn't filed yet.

I just thought that was interesting and leads me to back up a couple of steps.

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Saying ILY is not a good idea at this point. It is pursuit and pressure, and is not likely to lead to your W "coming back" to you or to the MR.

I know that when you come from a sitch where you never used to say "ILY" or were neglectful to your W, changing things up to say it can seem like a "180"... but it is not consistent with DB-ing where you have a WAW or WW.

If you must, focus instead on specific things to praise her for: "I really like it when we talk like this" or "I noticed that you did [something around the house, etc], I really appreciate that" Or "I appreciate the way you backed me up with the kids last night".

These are all good.. they recognize things she has done, particularly things that are consistent with improving/saving the MR... but at this point "ILY" is too much. You'll know when it is not too much, but that time is not now. Your W will have to be drawn back to the MR slooooooowly. You can do your part by not pressuring/pursuing yet (and "ILY" is both) and by improving yourself to be a better man, mate, and H.... AMOAFWL

Last edited by hoosjim; 02/10/20 09:08 PM.

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Scotty B,

I think for now stick to 180s, detachment and up your GAL. Try to remember that this is 90% about her and there is nothing you can do to control the outcome. I feel your pain brother.

Stay strong!

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LRT is for a very specific set of circumstances. And your sitch doesn't seem to meet those. LH's will suit you better.


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So I was reading and in the divorce remedy, there is a section on More of The Same Behaviors in the Experiment and Monitor section of the book. It seems like I could just take a list of all of my wife's normal complaints and focus on them to do something that is very different than what I probably normally do.

I've made a lot of changes but obviously, there are some things that maybe I haven't hit home runs on.

My "More of the Same" behavior / cheeseless tunnels / experiments I could do:

We don't compromise: Think of something where we can work to compromise. (New Stove that we've put off buying).
I don't help with the kids: Find a way to help with the kids with homework. (Read with my Daughter).
I am sarcastic, I turn things around on her: Be a cheerleader. Find sincere compliments, be more gracious. (Thanks for doing the laundry.)
You're relentless: Find something important to give up on - Cell service for my son.
You don't help around the house: do something unexpected - sweep the kitchen when I get home.
Stop saying I'm depressed: Focus on my Individual Counseling and don't bring hers up.
You don't support me: Figure out when she is going to the Dr. and go.
I make her into the bad guy, she feels like things are her fault: I'm not sure yet.

Then in my iPhone I created reminders to help me with these ideas. Now the trick is that it can't go off when she sees my phone, but I programmed some of these in at random times just to help me do things that might be little mini-experiments.

As I've read the walk-away spouse knows two things: They have confidence that they know all there is to know and that he is never going to change.

If I can create some seeds of doubt maybe I can start to walk this thing back from the cliff. She did say in the last MC session that she was confused. Confused is good, it means she doesn't really know what she wants.

Also, having these things to work on can help me feel more in control and give me something to focus on.

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Just make sure you are doing these things for YOU, because they are things you legitimately (and not just to the mind of her WW revisionism) fell down on in the past and could use the improvement. GALs and 180s are for YOU.... if you are doing them just to impress her she will see right through it. You CANNOT "nice" a WW/WAW back into the MR... nor can you attract them back by turning into the "gay butler" (not that there's anything wrong with that) type of H who scurries around doing all the housework and attending to the little princess's (your W) every need. If these are legitimate areas of self-improvement, than go for it.. but i would not limit it to just those things. Make sure you are still getting out on your own and doing some things for you, ScottB. Climb rocks, learn auto mechanics, skydive, join a boxing gym, run with the bulls.... Something outside of your comfort zone but fun... and cool. Become AMOAFWL.

Last edited by hoosjim; 02/10/20 10:40 PM.

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Jim,

That is so spot on. I do have a tendency to lose myself. So I need to go through those ideas and make sure I’m being true to myself. Great advice. Thanks.

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It's such a roller coaster. I had a relatively good night all around. Nothing exceptional about it, just put my best foot forward. I would say the emotional tone felt low. I did the varied things I mentioned previously, also the family went to get ice cream on my wife and I tagged along. Her and I watched a show and went to bed.

When we laid down I struggled. That's when I normally give her a kiss good night and say I love her. I laid there in silence. She said good night, I said good night. Then I kissed her on the forehead. I debated telling her I loved her and went with it because for better or worse, I feel like I have to be true to myself - maybe for worse. I was fully aware and expecting her not to say it back and I had made my peace with that, but oddly she said "I love you too."

Yesterday I left a message for the mediator that we had discussed using. The mediator called me back this morning and had thought that my wife and I had discussed it because Holly had called her earlier in the day yesterday.

On the one hand, I called the mediator too, so I'm not sure why it hit me like a load of bricks. It just hurt so much that my wife had called this woman, told her about our family, and this woman was looking to get us scheduled.

I know my wife is confused and doesn't know what the right thing to do is. It feels like an invisible force is just moving us down a path, like a conveyor belt to the inevitable.

I'm going to work out today at lunch and then I plan to get my head straight for tonight when I see her next. I'll try to walk the line between effective 180's and not overdoing it.

I am planning to connect with an attorney to make sure that I know the things I need to know to protect myself. This is very sad.

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I know you are 4 years in, but when you feel you have to take action that action will almost always result in that conveyor belt advancing. LIke I said when you and the MC pushed her to answer are you in or out, when pushed the WAS will almost always say "out".

This is why we say remove all pressure and pursuit. Pressure and pursuit will almost always result in that conveyor belt advancing. This is where you as-if attitude should come in.

As far as the kiss goodnight and the "ILY", I feel you are doing further damage. Do you know how in my sitch I knew it was okay to initiate ILY? When she started initiating it herself. I've seen others here and elsewhere say that when you say"ILY" to your WAS, it reminds them that they don't feel the same way. Not something that will help your sitch. Saying "ILY" (and I don't care that she brought it up in MC, they ALWAYS find fault with the LBS regardless of what the LBS is or isn't doing) is like saying: "Hey, remember, you don't love me anymore."

Hoos had the right plan for you. Stop saying ILY. Stop kissing her on the forehead (holy crap, that is what I used to do with my daughter!). End it at good night. Double, no triple, no check that QUADRUPLE down on GAL. Last night when she was taking the kids for ice-cream? "Oh sorry, I got some things to do." Then go do something! And continue to work on detachment. I think this is where MC has hurt your sitch because it has kept you attached. Are you in IC? That is what you should be doing. And you should have viewed MC as IC for you with her present.

Scott, you are stuck in a 4 year rut.....because you continue to spin your DBing wheels. Trust the process. Apply it with patience. Stop giving into the illusion of action. She contacted the mediator because she was pushed ("are you in or are you out?") into it.


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Can I at least tell her that I'm going to stop saying ILY because I don't want to put pressure on her, but let her know that in my heart it's still there. I'm just not sure I can stop and leave her feeling like I don't care; or leave myself feeling like she might be wondering.

I know the take is that of course she knows, but for me, I feel like I need to make this clear before I stop. I think its the only way I can live with myself.

If I can talk to her about why I'm stopping these actions, I think I can step away, but without hitting it head on and explaining it to her, I don't know that I can stop. Thoughts?

I scheduled a call with my divorce coach for Thursday because it seems like things are heating up and though its only been a week and I like to go a couple I feel like I need some talking to.

Also, my IC is out of town for two weeks. If he was here, I would be seeing him weekly at this time.

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Actions, not words. Trust me, she knows how you feel. She does not feel the same way and you saying it one or one thousand times ain't gonna make a damned bit of difference. Nor is explaining it to her that you're going to stop "because you don't want to pressure her but you do still love her". Are you even listening to yourself and how that sounds?

One of the golden rules of GAL-ing and 180-ing is that you don't say "I am going to do this"... you just do it.

Stop with the pressure. ILY is pressure. How many people who have been through this already, including some like me and steve who have come out the other side reconciled, do you need to have tell you this before you get it? What you are doing DOES NOT WORK, it hasn't worked for you for four years and it didn't work for us, either. Steve hits it right on the head: You will know when it is okay to say "ILY"... and that time is not now.

Do. What. Works.

Detach.

Stop pursuing.

Last edited by hoosjim; 02/11/20 04:39 PM.

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Originally Posted by ScottB
Can I at least tell her that I'm going to stop saying ILY because I don't want to put pressure on her, but let her know that in my heart it's still there. I'm just not sure I can stop and leave her feeling like I don't care; or leave myself feeling like she might be wondering.

I know the take is that of course she knows, but for me, I feel like I need to make this clear before I stop. I think its the only way I can live with myself.

If I can talk to her about why I'm stopping these actions, I think I can step away, but without hitting it head on and explaining it to her, I don't know that I can stop. Thoughts?


Newbie to newbie. What exactly do you think that conversation is going to look like that you think that this is the appropriate route?

This is the way I see it happening
You: W I'm not going to be kissing you or saying ILY any more. Not because I don't want to but because clearly you don't want me to/I think that part of our R has run it's course/I think for my mental health I need to stop/etc.
W: Ok.........

That's how it's going to go. She doesn't care. She doesn't want your kisses or your ILYs and/or explanations as to why or why not she'll be receiving or not receiving those things from you. She is confused and frustrated and you are turning her into a caged animal with the walls of your constant outpouring of love and affection. She needs space. She told you that. Space isn't necessarily letting her run around with OM. Space can sometimes just mean head space. Room to breathe. 2 months ago my H hated me. Like full on hated me. I didn't stop saying ILY then. Nope. I stopped saying ILY the day he admitted to the EA. Not because I didn't but because he didn't deserve it. And even though some of his behavior has shifted and sometimes maybe he does deserve it. Like when he said he's going to my daughter's parent teacher conferences with me and stopped me from arguing that I'm fine and I can do it alone. He still didn't get the ILY. He got "OK you win. I appreciate it." He knows I love him. Honestly I only bring it up when he wants to pin me in a corner as a villain who's trying to hurt him. I mean this as kindly as one can, but I'm not the warm and fuzzy type so I'm sorry if this sounds mean.

You're an adult. You do not need to say everything that immediately pops into your head whether you feel it or not. You are a grown man, impulse control is a thing. If I acted on every notion I've had in the last 4 months I'd either be in jail awaiting trial or he'd already be out the door. Even if you were a stonewaller right now in the state you guys are in she doesn't need to know every little thing that goes through your head in the moment. BACK OFF.

If you need to get it out, come here. Journal. Meditate. Pray. I don't know your spiritual jam. Go for a walk or a drive and scream or cry or both. I tell the body pillow in my husbands spot ILY good night every night. My H has now started making sure he says good night to me every night, well when he's home. It could be manipulation on his part. But it could be because I WON'T SAY IT FIRST EVER and it bothers him. Either way it was unsolicited and on his terms, and my goodnight in return, instead of silence, is enough for him to know.

Humans are not single cell organisms. They are complex creatures who are capable of perceiving things that are seemingly imperceptible. Like pupil dilation, flushing, body language, tone, vibes. Assuming your wife is a human, she knows what you are feeling with out telling her most of the time. Maybe you need to just trust that.

Last edited by wayfarer; 02/11/20 04:50 PM.
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To add to what hoos and wayfarer have said, DBing is most effective IF your WAS has no idea that is what you are doing. This is why cadet's second post to every newcomer says that the DB/DR book is for you. Do not share it with your WAS. Do not even let then know you are reading it!

Scott, you are struggling out of fear. Fear will kill you every time in DBing. You should do nothing out of fear. If your coaches and IC aren't teaching you that lesson first and foremost....get new ones!

To quote the movie Office Space: "The fear of losing your job will cause you to do just enough to not get fired." That is not what we are going for with DBing, especially since it doesn't work. The fear of D has caused many many LBSs to get D'd. Again, I speak from my experience. One of the most powerful things that happened in my sitch was for me to stop fearing D, and start embracing it. You've been in fear of D for 4 years. And where has it gotten you? On the brink of a meeting with a mediator.

Imagine if you had embraced D 3 1/2 years ago. "Ok, you want a D, let's get it for you." One of two things would have happened. 1) You would have ended up D'd, and 3 1/2 years later you'd be past it and moved on with your life. or 2) Your W would have been all "wait, what? He is ready to give me a D? Why? What is going on? Is this really what I want?" and then 3 1/2 years later she'd have turned around and gone all in on not only saving the MR but making it better herself!

You aren't stuck because you have been in limbo for 4 years. You have been in limbo for 4 years because you are stuck.


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Scotty B,

I’m going to give you some unconventional advice then you’ve been given. Do whatever you feel is right without any expectation. The next thing is to open the cage door and set her free. She is 100% convinced her happiness is out there due to hormones, past experiences, expectations and bad influences. The only way for this to work out long term she has to go see for herself. At first she’ll enjoy the freedom but at some point reality will start to sink in and she may rethink her decision.

Every move you make from here on in should be about what is good for you and the children.

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Originally Posted by ScottB
The nighttime ritual was normal except I gave her a kiss on the forehead that wasn’t returned and i said i love you which wasn’t returned.


She is clearly sending you the following message: "I do not want this from you and I wish you would stop it." If you continue it then I imagine at some point she will tell you to stop in no uncertain terms. Here's the thing- you want to save the M. She does not. By kissing her and saying ILY and being needy and desperate you are telling her "I don't care what you want, what I want is the marriage back". So not only do you look needy, but you look selfish too. You really should stop before you make things worse. Pull back. Give her time and space. Quit pursuing. Quit pretending you're still in a happy M.

Quote
Again, remember, two weeks ago she had said that i wasn’t saying I love you anymore and that had bothered her as well as that I had changed up giving her a kiss at night.


Interpretation A (good, loving marriage going through a rough spot):

"I miss these behaviors and I want you to try and do these things so that we can get back on track."

Interpretation B (WAS):

"I'm explaining to you why I've checked out of the M, but the last thing in the world that I want now is for you to "fix" it because I am done. Now it's too little too late."

Many MANY LBS's fall into the trap of thinking their spouse means A when they really mean B.

Quote
My "More of the Same" behavior / cheeseless tunnels / experiments I could do:

We don't compromise: Think of something where we can work to compromise. (New Stove that we've put off buying).
I don't help with the kids: Find a way to help with the kids with homework. (Read with my Daughter).
I am sarcastic, I turn things around on her: Be a cheerleader. Find sincere compliments, be more gracious. (Thanks for doing the laundry.)
You're relentless: Find something important to give up on - Cell service for my son.
You don't help around the house: do something unexpected - sweep the kitchen when I get home.
Stop saying I'm depressed: Focus on my Individual Counseling and don't bring hers up.
You don't support me: Figure out when she is going to the Dr. and go.
I make her into the bad guy, she feels like things are her fault: I'm not sure yet.


I'm not saying not to do these things, but again see A and B above. She is explaining to you why she's checked out, not asking you to change these things. In her eyes it's too late. So like Jim and LH said, do them for YOU not for her, with NO expectations that it'll change anything. With time maybe she will come to appreciate your 180's, but for now she won't care.

As Steve said you'll know things turn around when SHE initiates the things you're doing without reciprocation right now. Signs of affection, a willingness to have sex, her pursuing you. Until then you've got to back off. Read Wayfarer's post again. Get out. GAL. Leave her alone. It's not what you want, but it's what SHE wants.



Last edited by AnotherStander; 02/11/20 07:18 PM.

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There is so much great advice here I don’t know where to start.

But I’m not sure it matters unfortunately. Mediator called today and my wife was very intent on getting that scheduled and done with ASAP. I feel somewhat resolved to the fact that a marriage takes two and I’m only one. I may have done it wrong, here there and everywhere but I’m not sure it matters.

She is throwing around all the buzz words: gaslighting, narcissist, toxic relationship, and emotionally abusive. Once you label someone it’s easier to disregard them and throw them away. These are all buzzwords that are popular as well, so to label me with them is just tells me she’s been reading something or talking to someone. Whatever.

I don’t know if it’s the last resort technique I wrote about or what but I’ll go along for the ride. I’ll be here if she wants to come back. But otherwise I’ll work to move on. My family and friends support me. I’ll focus on the kids. It will get easier the further we go in the process because I’ll Have more clarity as we move further along.

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Scotty B,

That was a really great post and you are taking this with grace and dignity. I have told you from the start your sitch is a lot like mine. I’m a year and a half into D and my wife’s life is not better. In fact I saw her tonight and she looks worn out. They are chasing the dragon and it doesn’t tend to work out as planned.

Stay strong man!

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Thanks LH. I just wish i could sleep. If i could sleep I would feel so much better. I’ve been laying in bed for two hours and my head just spins. I really don’t want to rely on medicine for this but I can’t go sleepless night after night.

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Speaking from experience when i was in your position-- Bombdropped, marriage on the rocks, Wife seeing another man, couldn't sleep, I found that Unisom is fairly effective and also fairly innocuous as a sleep aid-- it is basically just a repurposed antihistimine, so no psychoactive effects or dependency or ambien sleepwalking. In a similar vein I have also gotten good results with an older antihistimine called Chlortrimetron, which i like because i actually do have allergies and rhinitis/sinusitis and it does a good job on those symptoms as well.

Either way, you can use either one of those without most, if any, of the worries you get with prescription or narcotic sleep aids.

Last edited by hoosjim; 02/12/20 05:13 AM.

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"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
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Originally Posted by ScottB

I don’t know if it’s the last resort technique I wrote about or what but I’ll go along for the ride. I’ll be here if she wants to come back. But otherwise I’ll work to move on. My family and friends support me. I’ll focus on the kids. It will get easier the further we go in the process because I’ll Have more clarity as we move further along.


Do not wait on her. A watched kettle never boils. And do not say move on, rather say move forward. And forward you must move regardles of what's going on with your wife. You have soo much growing to do. And healing. Do not wait. Ever again. Walk your path boldly. Do not look over your shoulder if she is following. Be a man. Be a leader. Be strong. You don't beg, you don't grovel.

Get some quality exercise. It will help with the brain chemistry and it will help with sleep.

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Vapo: I’m not waiting. I have no hope of her returning. I talk to my coach tomorrow which I’m looking forward to. Living in the same home through this phase is going to be hell as is sleeping in the same bed. We haven’t told the kids and there is no current plan to do so, which makes it hard to sleep elsewhere.

I’m not sure how to process and move through all of this. My IC happens to be gone for three weeks right now which is great timing.

My current goal is to do my best to be gentle and kind while feeling this pain. I’m very afraid of telling the kids. That is going to break my heart. I’ve tried to read a co-parenting book i was given but I struggle to read any of it.

And I typically exercise doing CrossFit 5 days per week, that will continue. I’ll probably try some of the recommended sleep aids like Unisom.

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Scotty B,

Man it feels like you are living my old life. I also did CrossFit and trained for a half marathon to keep my sanity.

Most of the fears you have right now will not come true. If your children see you handle it well then they will be ok with it. For now I would stay away from the coparenting books and stick with self help.

If you able to remain in the same bed and delay telling your children until the last minute. Start doing things separately to get them use to it.

I promise you that you will beat this and you and your children will survive and thrive.

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Hi Scott,

If your kids are small like mine were during divorce, telling them about it may not have a great deal of meaning until they see what it looks like. LH19 is right doing more activities independently with them will likely ease the transition.

Sorry you are going through this just now.

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Originally Posted by ScottB
Thanks LH. I just wish i could sleep. If i could sleep I would feel so much better. I’ve been laying in bed for two hours and my head just spins. I really don’t want to rely on medicine for this but I can’t go sleepless night after night.


So you got the physical activity down. And unisom/benadryl will work. I use something else non-addictive, but not something I'm not going to put out here. A shower about an hour before bed helps your body to relax. I'd recommend Dr. Bronner's castile soap in the lavender scent for that shower. I know you're a dude but real lavender isn't exactly a girly floral scent. Like at all. The sleeping arrangement is odd to me, but to each his own. Get a body pillow to put between you. This is something I had to do right after Christmas when we had house guests. Next get a diffuser, get a sleep blend essential oil or just straight lavender. Get a weighted blanket just for your side. Try to keep your room cool but you cozy. Next I would recommend white noise or a sleep meditation/sleep story app. As long as we don't fight I sleep like a baby. He was out with OW last night I was knocked out well before he got home. You should be able to get all of that from Amazon but any big box retailer will have most if not all of the things I listed. Sleeping better and staying active has really helped me stay more grounded and less emotional throughout.

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Scott,

You still had 12 postings to go to reach 100 postings/replies, therefore I have merged your two threads together for now.

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I spoke with my MC. I wanted to discuss options with her and get perspective. I’m surprised she called me back. She put it pretty simply. She said I need to move on. She said my wife is worn out and needs her energy for the divorce. That if I push anymore it will get contentious and escalate. She said my wife doesn’t want to hurt me and has a tendency to therefore be agreeable or be nice.

Same thing someone else said yesterday; she says “I love you” back because she doesn’t want to hurt you. My wife told me yesterday she’ll always love me, she’s just not in love with me. I need to move to acceptance. I’ve probably said that before.

I told her that I accept her decision and that we need to do what we can to keep this from the kids until we know the details and we’re ready to tell them. She agreed. I held it together but it was tough. I did ask her to where her wedding ring again so that the kids wouldn’t ask about it. She was noncommittal, which is fine. It’s up to her.

This feels sad but better. I have my call with my coach in the morning and I’m sure he will tell me to continue to empathize, work to be kind, and gentle. I think this was a step in that direction. My only chance, if I have one is that she changes her mind as we go through the process over the next three months or so and I have to accept that she probably won’t and stop throwing up road blocks because that will only reaffirm her.

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Scotty B,

Your MC is a wise person. It is time to set her free alone into the wild. I really do not believe it will live up to her expectations. She is going to want out quick and will likely take concessions in the D. Use it to your advantage. We are here for you.

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