Guess I should jump into the water here. Been lurking for a few weeks. This place is amazing, wish I knew about it many months ago. Possibly would have put me in a better situation than I'm in now.
Easily the worst year of my life. The flags were subtly raised over time and I was still ignoring most of it. She was always a very conservative, prudish, and generally sweet person. Like most here - the last person I'd ever expect to cheat. I don't have concrete proof yet, but there's been more than enough deceit, manipulation, and gaslighting that it is undeniably happening.
My anxiety level started going through the roof when I got keen on how nasty she was all of a sudden towards me. Coupled with the wardrobe upgrade and excessive primping for work, I was slowly getting unraveled. Who is this person? What alien has possessed her? Is this just some bizarre temporary phase?
After observing her behavior for a few months, I finally had to confront her. (wish I knew about this place beforehand.) She convincingly denied everything, had me cowering with regret for even assuming it, and lovingly made a commitment to work on our relationship. I'm amazed at her poise. She was unflappable.
I'm almost certain she has been having an affair with a coworker. She has name dropped a few guys' names over the past year that she has become good work friends with. And, one in particular got brought up more than the others.
I did all the wrong things snooping for concrete evidence. I was just so unraveled. It was like a horrible out of body experience. I still can't believe I became so rattled. I lost about 20 lbs.
I did all the begging, pleading, etc to work on the relationship. She pushed further away, and really seemed ready to file for divorce. She finally said, "I really don't like you right now. I don't know what I want. I just want to focus on the children." She's never confessed to any EA/PA, but suddenly has stopped mentioning the guy's name.
Since October it has been really bad in our house. We've kept it (mostly) friendly in front of the kids and still carried on like we were a loving family. But, when the kids aren't around/asleep, we've had very limited one on one interaction other than for logistical discussions. We have gone out together a few times (she did some crumb tossing), but it really is exhausting. It is hard to have a conversation with someone you believe is actively cheating and lying to you. She is a master spinner.
I finally found this place. No more pursuing. Lots of great advice here. I've picked up some books and just started DR. I've done a few of the techniques - being very upbeat, not initiating conversations, GALing, that have seen some short term positive results (at least for my sanity) that got me back in control of myself.
I'm just really concerned that I'm now DBing too late in this process. I've done a lot of damage to whatever's left of our R since I confronted her. Based on our conversations, she's been really unhappy for a few years. This really seems like a textbook exit affair.
Besides reading DR and the threads on this site, anything in particular I should do ASAP?
Last edited by job; 01/17/2006:30 PM. Reason: edited posting per poster's request
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Your H or W is giving you a GIFT. THE GIFT OF TIME. USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Have you checked out the links on the Welcome Thread? There is one link specifically about Detachment. I think you will find that many of the examples, etc. are really "tools" for us and help us navigate life. Detachment helps us learn how not to react to what people say or do, especially where our spouses are concerned.
Your wife sounds like she's rewriting history if she says she's been unhappy for years. If she's been that unhappy, she should have talked to you about it and not stuffed those feelings down in her soul for many years. She is attempting to find a justification for the way she feels. Listen and validate her thoughts and feelings. However, I think you would have noticed changes in her before now if she was that unhappy.
Many of use came here after the bomb drop and we all have made mistakes. It is what we learn from the mistakes that matters.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
RVM, sorry you're going through this. I chuckled when I read your list because it's almost identical to the changes my XW made just before BD (sad at the time but I can laugh about it now). She had always worn frumpy "old lady" underwear, I had politely suggested more than once that it would be nice to see her in something a little more sexy so imagine my delight when she suddenly threw out all her underwear and bought some sexy bras and panties. Little did I know they weren't for me!
Keep DR near at hand, refer to it often. Read Sandi's rules every day, they are a great template on how to behave around your W. Remove all pressure! No R talks.
Originally Posted by RVM
Another thing I should mention - other than family activities/meals we had become quite distant from each other for the past few years.
I'm wondering how detachment would be effective in this sitch?
We get that question a lot. "She says I was cold and distant, so won't detachment look like more of the same?" Detachment isn't being cold and distant though. It's giving her time and space, but not pushing her away. As Job said the stickies will help you understand. And again, Sandi's rules. They are all about LOVING detachment.
Also please note that your W doesn't want you to fix things. If she brings up complaints they aren't to give you an opportunity to fix them, they are to explain why she is done. Any changes you make she will consider "too little too late". So do it for you. In the long run it will have an impact on her, but in the short term it won't really change anything. This truly is a marathon!
RVM, sorry you're going through this. I chuckled when I read your list because it's almost identical to the changes my XW made just before BD (sad at the time but I can laugh about it now). She had always worn frumpy "old lady" underwear, I had politely suggested more than once that it would be nice to see her in something a little more sexy so imagine my delight when she suddenly threw out all her underwear and bought some sexy bras and panties. Little did I know they weren't for me!
Keep DR near at hand, refer to it often. Read Sandi's rules every day, they are a great template on how to behave around your W. Remove all pressure! No R talks.
Originally Posted by RVM
Another thing I should mention - other than family activities/meals we had become quite distant from each other for the past few years.
I'm wondering how detachment would be effective in this sitch?
We get that question a lot. "She says I was cold and distant, so won't detachment look like more of the same?" Detachment isn't being cold and distant though. It's giving her time and space, but not pushing her away. As Job said the stickies will help you understand. And again, Sandi's rules. They are all about LOVING detachment.
Also please note that your W doesn't want you to fix things. If she brings up complaints they aren't to give you an opportunity to fix them, they are to explain why she is done. Any changes you make she will consider "too little too late". So do it for you. In the long run it will have an impact on her, but in the short term it won't really change anything. This truly is a marathon!
Thanks for the clarification. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, whenever I made the mistake of trying to discuss our R, she kept saying that she's built up a wall against me for my past aloofness, that she's not sure if she'll ever let it down again.
Uh, the bras and panties/fitness/wardrobe/hotness upgrades are soul crushing.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
I think it would be beneficial for you to ramp up the GAL and leave the house in the evenings several times a week. You mentioned that she has been going out for drinks before she comes home. I think you should be ready to leave when she gets there. Go out and do something. Be vague. Tell her there are some things you want to do and leave it at that. Make her wonder what you're doing while she's picking out clothes and rubbing stuff on her face...
Me: 38 W:31 Kids: S16(mine from previous R), D10, S9, S4 M: 10 years T:12 years BD:Jan 3, 2018 W moved out: Apr 13,2018 Filed for D: Jun 2018 D final: Sep 2019
I think it would be beneficial for you to ramp up the GAL and leave the house in the evenings several times a week. You mentioned that she has been going out for drinks before she comes home. I think you should be ready to leave when she gets there. Go out and do something. Be vague. Tell her there are some things you want to do and leave it at that. Make her wonder what you're doing while she's picking out clothes and rubbing stuff on her face...
Yeah, I've started doing that to a degree. It is a little difficult with the ages of our daughters. We alternate picking them up from school and spend time with them as a family until they go to bed.
But, after they've gone to bed, I've gone to the gym, which is different than my regular schedule. But, it isn't mysterious as she'll see I'm clearly going there. I do need to find some other night activities though. The last two nights I used our home office with the door shut. Coincidentally enough, that entailed reading here and starting the DR book. She came in a couple times to discuss minor kid logistics.
I did tell her the night before that I may not join her and the girls for a long weekend trip to her family's place next month. Missing something like that would be a first for me. That really threw her back when I said that. What are your thoughts on that? I think the girls may be upset if I didn't go.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
1) Undecided right now. I'm trying to slow things down. I do still love her.
2) Yes. But, I still don't have the conclusive proof it is him.
3) Yes. I live in a no fault state.
4) Both currently sleeping in MBR. There is no physical contact. There were a few nights where I was so pissed off and anxious that I slept in another room.
In our earlier talks, I told her that I would not accept infidelity and lying. I also told her I am not interested in just being married for the kids. But, I had nothing to back it up or made any real boundaries. I know I am being treated like a doormat right now. I have made a ton of NGS mistakes.
Last edited by RVM; 01/10/2008:50 PM.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
Have you thought about asking her to sleep elsewhere?
I have thought about that a lot this week. I'm really torn since I don't have the concrete proof of an A. But, only a fool would believe she's not in one.
The other thing I'm toying with regarding the nightly GALing. Do I just tell her I'm going to start coming and going as I please after the kids go to bed? i.e. I'm not going to text her or tell her (if she's not nearby) where or when I'll be back.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
So, I've stepped up my GAL'ing, detaching, 180, and validating game over the past week and I've definitely seen some improvement in my self-esteem. Those first 3 months after the BD, I think I was suffering from something akin to Stockholm Syndrome. It was sheer emotional abuse.
It didn't help that I was previously in full pursuer mode without realizing it. The random texting temp check-ins and then getting deflated with her lack of or her dismissive replies; looking at her to see her facial expressions to attain any good/bad feedback for our R; wanting to always sit near her when we're out somewhere, etc, etc.
This forum has helped so much explain what is going on in my W's head. The tornado of emotions. It really has helped me take the emotions out of her spewing. I loved the recommendation of pretending she has a horn growing out of her forehead for when she starts making some whacko insult.
Just my changes alone, have made her actually start to become the pursuer again and she's toned down the attitude. Just slowing everything down to a crawl again. She actually slightly reminds me of the woman I knew 2 years ago. I don't trust a d@mn thing out of her mouth or her feigned good deeds. But, I do feel more in control of my life again. Baby steps.
Last edited by job; 01/14/2007:26 PM. Reason: edited language
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
Also, is there a thread where people list the ridiculous comments their S spew out?
I know this is all extremely serious stuff we are dealing with, but some of these comments the S say need to be read. At least something we can chuckle over or relate as LBSs.
Last edited by RVM; 01/14/2006:12 PM.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
So, I've stepped up my GAL'ing, detaching, 180, and validating game over the past week and I've definitely seen some improvement in my self-esteem. Those first 3 months after the BD, I think I was suffering from something akin to Stockholm Syndrome. It was sheer emotional abuse.
It didn't help that I was previously in full pursuer mode without realizing it. The random texting temp check-ins and then getting deflated with her lack of or her dismissive replies; looking at her to see her facial expressions to attain any good/bad feedback for our R; wanting to always sit near her when we're out somewhere, etc, etc.
This forum has helped so much explain what is going on in my W's head. The tornado of emotions. It really has helped me take the emotions out of her spewing. I loved the recommendation of pretending she has a horn growing out of her forehead for when she starts making some whacko insult.
Just my changes alone, have made her actually start to become the pursuer again and she's toned down the attitude. Just slowing everything down to a crawl again. She actually slightly reminds me of the woman I knew 2 years ago. I don't trust a d@mn thing out of her mouth or her feigned good deeds. But, I do feel more in control of my life again. Baby steps.
Remember, DB for you....not her. Not to save the marriage. As you commented on in Scott's thread, and you are now aware of, you were watching a caged animal. That's how she felt. She will never step toward you if she feels that way. Now removing all pressure and pursuit, she may still not step toward you, but it is a heck of a lot more likely than if she is feeling like a caged animal.
Keep up the good work!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Also, is there a thread where people list the ridiculous comments their S spew out?
I know this is all extremely serious stuff we are dealing with, but some of these comments the S say need to be read. At least something we can chuckle over or relate as LBSs.
Start here, what are some doosies you've heard?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
What's the opinion on AOS? Wife texted asking me to put something in the oven for dinner for the family. I get you don't want to be a jerk (and not doing this would be IMO), but is there a thread about how to handle AOS?
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
Not much has changed over the past few weeks. Been GAL'ing, 180ing, and detaching with a little success. It has definitely been a roller coaster ride. I'm up and down on this quite a bit.
A couple of concerns - I think a lot of my efforts have come off as too cold. I'm torn as I still don't have concrete proof of a PA yet, all of the signs are there. I found a lot of older phone records to the person I suspected she is having the PA with. She works at the same company as he does. There are enough calls and the timing of many of them is very concerning. I haven't confronted her with that information yet. And, I don't want to keep snooping as she is aware that I believe she is cheating. I think they may have taken a more underground approach to conceal their relationship. Do I apply Sandi's tough stance on her?
My W continues to follow the WWS script. Lots of argument baiting that I do my best to validate, but have made mistakes and gotten sucked in a few times. She seems to relish on this. It's amazing. And, really awful.
I am at the point where I am seriously considering reaching out to the suspected OMS about the phone record info I do have. Looks like almost 2 years' worth of phone calls. They have 2 kids as well. What is the board's opinion on this tactic?
Several weeks ago she asked me and the kids to go away to visit her family for this weekend. We have done so for several years now. At that time, I told her I'd think about it, but most likely not based on how things have changed. We hadn't been talking much at all and the times we did were just logistical for our kids. She followed up again, and this time I said I am not going. I have other things going on and reiterated that she had essentially fired me as a husband. (i.e. she had cut me off from sex 6 months ago, declared us as "partners", wasn't sure if she wanted a relationship with me anymore, and told me to "go do your own thing", etc) She didn't argue with me too much, but was more upset that the kids might not be happy about it.
The truth is - this might actually be the first time she's ever taken the kids away without me. Whereas, I've done it several times. The kids love going away with me, always have. They don't have that same relationship with her. I just want to make sure I'm making a right decision here and not doing something that is passive-aggressive. I also don't want to back peddle on my decision as I could still go. Part of my rationale for not going is to let her see a possible future reality.
Last edited by RVM; 02/11/2005:57 PM.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
I would keep the phone records to myself. Once the WW finds out where you're getting information from, they'll switch things up to keep the A underground...
I've seen mixed views and results of exposing the A to the OMS. I'm sure it probably feels good in the moment, but I feel like it would cause more problems in the long run. WW get mad when you start meddling in their fantasy. Like I said, I've seen cases where it benefits the LBS and cases where it doesn't...
I think you're definitely making the right decision regarding not going on the trip to see her family. I don't think it will affect your kids as much as you think. It will most likely get her wondering what you're up to, and that's good...
Me: 38 W:31 Kids: S16(mine from previous R), D10, S9, S4 M: 10 years T:12 years BD:Jan 3, 2018 W moved out: Apr 13,2018 Filed for D: Jun 2018 D final: Sep 2019
So, I picked up the girls from school yesterday and they asked about the weekend trip they've been excited to take. This time I took the opportunity to tell them I wasn't going with them (in a very light hearted, casual tone) this time. They asked why, and I told them I just had personal things to take care of at home, so it'll just be the ladies this time. They were fine with it and made no expressions or comments to indicate any concerns.
Later, I made dinner for the family, and in the middle of dinner, my oldest D told my W that I wasn't going on the trip. My wife looked a little taken back, but quickly replied, "yes, it's just going to be a ladies trip this time." My youngest then said, "aw, I'm going to miss you Daddy." I replied, "I know, I will too. But, you all will have a great time. Plus, I don't think you've ever gone away with just Mommy before, so it'll be a new experience"
Don't think my W appreciated that comment much as she made no comment and was just stoic. We quickly moved on to another conversation. Was that comment the wrong thing to add? Or was that a NGS comment?
Anyway, later on in the evening when the girls were occupied in other rooms by themselves, and I was reading a book, my W comes up to me and says, "so, how did you explain why you weren't going away with us this weekend?"
I replied, "just told them I had personal stuff to work on at home and also actually had to go to work they day they were coming back." (I stifled my gut reaction to say, "the truth!")
She looked a bit upset, and said "OK. I just want to make sure I have the same explanation if they ask again." Then, she left the room. And, I went back to reading my book.
After the girls went to bed, I left for the gym (as I have been doing almost every night of the week now. I used to go in the morning.)
Even though I would have a good time on the trip, it felt like a small victory for my self-esteem to not cave in and go on the trip with them.
I do feel like I'm trapped in some sort of Cold War stand-off right now, and that she is trying to wear me down so I file for D so she doesn't have to. I guess that's a standard MO of WS.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
I'm torn as I still don't have concrete proof of a PA yet, all of the signs are there. I found a lot of older phone records to the person I suspected she is having the PA with. She works at the same company as he does. There are enough calls and the timing of many of them is very concerning. I haven't confronted her with that information yet. And, I don't want to keep snooping as she is aware that I believe she is cheating. I think they may have taken a more underground approach to conceal their relationship. Do I apply Sandi's tough stance on her?
If you need to know then hire a PI. The snooping will absolutely kill you. You'll gather all this info that seems suspicious, but still allows her some plausible deniability. It'll just confuse and frustrate you. And rest assured, no matter how strong the evidence she will deny, deny, deny. She will gaslight you to the point that you don't know what to believe yourself. This is the part where a lot of LBS's will say "oh but he doesn't know my wife like I do, she's not like that." You knew who she WAS, not who she IS right now. WE know who she is. So hire a PI, find out once and for all and be done with it and move forward. If you do find out she's having an A and decide to confront her, then just confront her and say you know and leave it at that. Just say "I know what you're doing and find is extremely disrespectful and will not tolerate it." Then when she denies (which she will) then just look her in the eye, say "we both know that's not true" and leave the room. The key is to do it with as few words as possible. The more you talk the more she will argue/ fight/ lie/ gaslight.
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I am at the point where I am seriously considering reaching out to the suspected OMS about the phone record info I do have. Looks like almost 2 years' worth of phone calls. They have 2 kids as well. What is the board's opinion on this tactic?
Don't confront OM. If you have absolute evidence of a PA such as photos of them kissing, or their cars in a hotel parking lot or something, then my opinion is you send it anonymously to his W. She deserves to know, but there is no need to expose yourself to any drama as a result of it. Just send it to her and let her decide what to do with the information.
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Part of my rationale for not going is to let her see a possible future reality.
I think it's the right choice not to go, but if you think it will be a "wakeup call" for her you are wrong about that.
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Was that comment the wrong thing to add? Or was that a NGS comment?
No I think it was a great response. It was neutral and not accusatory towards W.
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I do feel like I'm trapped in some sort of Cold War stand-off right now, and that she is trying to wear me down so I file for D so she doesn't have to. I guess that's a standard MO of WS.
Could be. Or she may just be unsure right now. When the LBS removes all pressure, often the WAS will put D (and sometimes S) on the back burner indefinitely.
Just say "I know what you're doing and find is extremely disrespectful and will not tolerate it." Then when she denies (which she will) then just look her in the eye, say "we both know that's not true" and leave the room. The key is to do it with as few words as possible. The more you talk the more she will argue/ fight/ lie/ gaslight.
Mistake or not, I've actually already done this. It took her back, she denied, but didn't ever ask questions like "what are you talking about or what do you mean evidence?" She started gaslighting me months ago when I first asked if she might be having an affair. It really turned my world upside down then. I was snooping quite a bit back then (before finding this board.) But, that has died down - the snooping and gaslighting. I never question where she's going, etc. But, I think that initial period of snooping made her go further underground with the A. But, yeah, I have seriously considered hiring a PI just for some personal closure.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Don't confront OM. If you have absolute evidence of a PA such as photos of them kissing, or their cars in a hotel parking lot or something, then my opinion is you send it anonymously to his W. She deserves to know, but there is no need to expose yourself to any drama as a result of it. Just send it to her and let her decide what to do with the information.
This is a possibility.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
I think it's the right choice not to go, but if you think it will be a "wakeup call" for her you are wrong about that.
I agree. I don't expect this to change anything. Just a small step for me to not be a doormat. It could also backfire.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
Another observation - just about every week my daughters have a group Facetime chat with my W's parents. For many years, my W would be a major part of the chat. But, for the last year or 2, she has really faded and rarely even taken part in these chats, and just has my daughters talk to them. I actually even participate in these quite a bit. I've thought that was really odd behavior for awhile now. And, when they've come to visit in this time period, she really doesn't interact with them too much other than figuring out activities or very superficial things.
Is avoiding her parents just a part of a WS's script?
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
Another observation - just about every week my daughters have a group Facetime chat with my W's parents. For many years, my W would be a major part of the chat. But, for the last year or 2, she has really faded and rarely even taken part in these chats, and just has my daughters talk to them. I actually even participate in these quite a bit. I've thought that was really odd behavior for awhile now. And, when they've come to visit in this time period, she really doesn't interact with them too much other than figuring out activities or very superficial things.
Is avoiding her parents just a part of a WS's script?
Yes.
My W started, right around BD, to really distance herself from my family, and even from mutual friends. I remember that 8 days after BD, some friends of ours invited us over for New Years Eve. My W made an excuse (Not feeling well) literally as we were getting ready to go. It was as if she was preparing for he new life devoid of my family and any friends she felt would be sympathetic to me in our situation.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
After observing her behavior for a few months, I finally had to confront her. (wish I knew about this place beforehand.) She convincingly denied everything, had me cowering with regret for even assuming it, and lovingly made a commitment to work on our relationship. I'm amazed at her poise. She was unflappable.
How could she have poise, and at the same time, have you cowering?
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I did all the begging, pleading, etc to work on the relationship. She pushed further away, and really seemed ready to file for divorce. She finally said, "I really don't like you right now. I don't know what I want. I just want to focus on the children." She's never confessed to any EA/PA, but suddenly has stopped mentioning the guy's name.
So, her "lovingly" commitment to work on the MR was nothing more than a pat on the head so you'd settle down and stop being a pest. Why should she confess anything? No confession doesn't automatically mean she's innocent, so I hope you prepare for the worst. Why? B/c her behavior is not exactly that of a trustworthy, honorable wife.
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I did all the begging, pleading, etc to work on the relationship. She pushed further away, and really seemed ready to file for divorce. She finally said, "I really don't like you right now. I don't know what I want. I just want to focus on the children."
It is never attractive when a man begs & pleads with his wife. NEVER! If you don't have more respect for yourself, then why should she? May I suggest that your W a sense of entitlement, is spoiled, and takes you for you granted.
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She's never confessed to any EA/PA, but suddenly has stopped mentioning the guy's name.
No confession means nothing. She's covering her tracks, b/c you have grown suspicious.
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Originally Posted by mtb1981 I think it would be beneficial for you to ramp up the GAL and leave the house in the evenings several times a week. You mentioned that she has been going out for drinks before she comes home. I think you should be ready to leave when she gets there. Go out and do something. Be vague. Tell her there are some things you want to do and leave it at that. Make her wonder what you're doing while she's picking out clothes and rubbing stuff on her face...
Yeah, I've started doing that to a degree. It is a little difficult with the ages of our daughters. We alternate picking them up from school and spend time with them as a family until they go to bed.
It's difficult for whom? Look, your W will have zero problems leaving those girls while she conducts her affair. I understand that you want to spend time with your daughters, but as far as spending time as a family..............you may reach a point that family time will need to be put on hold, until the adults figure out what to do. Some family activities is very much cake eating for a WW. She wants the best of both worlds, and she won't like it when you try to take part of it away. We can talk more about this later.
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I did tell her the night before that I may not join her and the girls for a long weekend trip to her family's place next month. Missing something like that would be a first for me. That really threw her back when I said that. What are your thoughts on that? I think the girls may be upset if I didn't go.
The more you pull back, and the less you reveal to her who...what....where about your activities, the more she will try to get into your personal business. She don't want you knowing what she's been up to, but just watch how angry she gets if you don't answer all of her nosy questions.
The kids may be disappointed, but the way I see it is that it's better they have some disappointment now, than years without their parents together. Make sense? Let me warn you that LBH's will try to use their kids (maybe unaware) to stay home, go on family trips, etc. Of course you want to keep things as they've always been, but it doesn't work when your W is wayward. She needs to see (by your actions) that it's not okay for her to treat you this way and expect you to roll over and continue playing the H with NGS. She should experience a drastic change, mostly from you not being interested in her.......not accommodating her.......and not catering to her.
Currently, you are wanting to work on the MR, right? Well, you can't work on it....the way you want to work on it, b/c that would involve her cooperation, and she's not going to sincerely do it while she has another guy in her head. Don't even bother trying to get her to commit, right now. She would only lie, or push to the next step, which is to separate. BTW, don't agree to leave the MBR, or to in-house separation.
Okay, so first, you work on yourself, and you learn how to detach, and learn how to establish and enforce boundaries. You let her deal with consequences, and don't run in to save her. I am hitting only a handful of highlights, b/c there is much more involved. I'm just trying to get you to realize that you can't let fear guide you in the process. As the H, you must be a figure of strength, b/c you've only just begun to see what she is capable of doing. Things will get worse before they get better. You have a lot to read/learn, but you have a good support system here.
I had to type this really fast, so if I have totally confused you, please ask questions.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
So, her "lovingly" commitment to work on the MR was nothing more than a pat on the head so you'd settle down and stop being a pest. Why should she confess anything? No confession doesn't automatically mean she's innocent, so I hope you prepare for the worst. Why? B/c her behavior is not exactly that of a trustworthy, honorable wife.
Yeah, it took a few weeks for it to register that she was lying. I was in complete denial back then.
Originally Posted by sandi2
It is never attractive when a man begs & pleads with his wife. NEVER! If you don't have more respect for yourself, then why should she? May I suggest that your W a sense of entitlement, is spoiled, and takes you for you granted.
Agreed. And, I believe her lack of respect for me was the major trigger in her decision to start having an A. She is an extremely ambitious and successful professional, and makes a lot more money than I do.
Originally Posted by sandi2
It's difficult for whom? Look, your W will have zero problems leaving those girls while she conducts her affair. I understand that you want to spend time with your daughters, but as far as spending time as a family..............you may reach a point that family time will need to be put on hold, until the adults figure out what to do. Some family activities is very much cake eating for a WW. She wants the best of both worlds, and she won't like it when you try to take part of it away. We can talk more about this later.
She has taken different steps to conduct her A now that she knows I'm suspicious. She used to do the "I have to work a bit later tonight" or "our work group has a dinner scheduled tonight", etc. But, now I believe she does her meet ups early in the morning, during lunch, or immediatlely after work. Probably has taken days off from work that I don't know about as well.
I am really struggling with how to curtail the cake eating when the kids are involved and we don't have any kind of S or plans for a D. I haven't participated in several things that she's tried to organize for the family and just told her "I have other plans." That usually frustrated her.
Originally Posted by sandi2
The kids may be disappointed, but the way I see it is that it's better they have some disappointment now, than years without their parents together. Make sense? Let me warn you that LBH's will try to use their kids (maybe unaware) to stay home, go on family trips, etc. Of course you want to keep things as they've always been, but it doesn't work when your W is wayward. She needs to see (by your actions) that it's not okay for her to treat you this way and expect you to roll over and continue playing the H with NGS. She should experience a drastic change, mostly from you not being interested in her.......not accommodating her.......and not catering to her.
This is where I need the most help. I'm trying to keep things as normal as possible for the kids, but I'm also maintaining good distance from my W. I no longer show any interest in her. I don't ask her questions and I give very basic responses to anything she asks. Part of me thinks this approach feeds right into what she wants - that eventually I'll just file for D so she doesn't have to be looked on as the one who broke up the family. But, I do see a potential long term benefit in this helping me let her go. I do need to really ramp up some other GAL activities that are not just going to the gym, as that's something I've always done.
There have been a few nights in the past few weeks where I've cleaned up after the kids went to bed and just said "I'm going out." No details offered. And, I come home after 11 pm. Does this look like I'm potentially revenge dating or going to a bar to a WWS? I'm concerned I'm giving the impression that I'm going out drinking. Which I would see as a negative.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Currently, you are wanting to work on the MR, right? Well, you can't work on it....the way you want to work on it, b/c that would involve her cooperation, and she's not going to sincerely do it while she has another guy in her head. Don't even bother trying to get her to commit, right now. She would only lie, or push to the next step, which is to separate. BTW, don't agree to leave the MBR, or to in-house separation.
Yes, I do still want to R. But, as you said, and what I've told her is that I have no intention to be in an open relationship. I won't agree to leave the MBR, or an in-house S. She's also made veiled comments here and there that suggest me moving out. I ignore those.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Okay, so first, you work on yourself, and you learn how to detach, and learn how to establish and enforce boundaries. You let her deal with consequences, and don't run in to save her. I am hitting only a handful of highlights, b/c there is much more involved. I'm just trying to get you to realize that you can't let fear guide you in the process. As the H, you must be a figure of strength, b/c you've only just begun to see what she is capable of doing. Things will get worse before they get better. You have a lot to read/learn, but you have a good support system here.
Yes, agreed, and I've started working on myself a lot since the new year. I'm much more upbeat in general. I am slowly building boundaries. I've been reading a lot of books, reading everything on this site, listening to audiobooks, etc . And, now on my second time through the DR book.
Thanks for your excellent feedback and all of the posting you've done on this site. You've been an invaluable resource here.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
There have been a few nights in the past few weeks where I've cleaned up after the kids went to bed and just said "I'm going out." No details offered. And, I come home after 11 pm. Does this look like I'm potentially revenge dating or going to a bar to a WWS? I'm concerned I'm giving the impression that I'm going out drinking. Which I would see as a negative.
Let her think whatever she wants. You know what you're doing and that's all that matters. Just continue your GAL activities and keep all info about it vague. You should probably get out of the house every once in a while before the kids go to bed. Right when she gets home, you should head out. I get the impression that there have been many evenings where she has been out after work and left you with everything to do at home. This way, you can focus on you and GAL and she can have a taste of what getting a D and single parenting is like. 2 birds, 1 stone. Who cares what she thinks? Like Sandi said, she wouldn't think twice about doing whatever she wants. It's only fair that you get a break from doing everything too...
Me: 38 W:31 Kids: S16(mine from previous R), D10, S9, S4 M: 10 years T:12 years BD:Jan 3, 2018 W moved out: Apr 13,2018 Filed for D: Jun 2018 D final: Sep 2019
I see you have not posted since my post yesterday, so I'll continue.
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Originally Posted by LH19 RVM
I’m really sorry you are here my friend.
Is a PA a dealbreaker for you?
Is the suspected OM married?
Have you spoken to a lawyer?
What are the sleeping arrangements?
1) Undecided right now. I'm trying to slow things down. I do still love her.
1. While going through this crisis period, don't get confused about the real issues that are at play here. In other words, some newbie H's think this is the time he should prove to his W how much he loves her. I'm here to tell you that would be a mistake, b/c of her wayward mindset. Her mind/heart is not interested in how much you love her. Frankly, she doesn't care, b/c her affair is her interest these days. She takes your love for granted.
So, what are the real issues that are currently at play? Betrayal, untrustworthy, manipulation, gaslighting, lies, unfaithfulness (at some level, you can count on it), deceit, lack of respect, resentment, rebellion (at some level), etc. I think you get the picture, and you know these issues have come from your W. Don't start second guessing yourself and think you are to blame for these behaviors from your W. Waywardness is a free will choice, and she can stop it whenever she decides to do the right thing. It may help if you understand how waywardness begins. It starts with her resentment toward you, and she holds on to that resentment. Long-term resentment breeds disrespect. A man wants to be respected. That's at the top of the list for him as a man. Now, the funny thing about the husband-wife relationship is that the wife's loving feelings and desire for her him, is determined by the level of respect she has in him as a man, and as a husband. If she harbors resentment and disrespect, her mental attitude become negative about her MR and she'll begin to show signs of rebellion. Usually she starts with small things, like subtle put-downs, rejecting him sexually, having a stinking attitude, etc. It gets a little worse over a course of time, and the man with NGS will make excuses for why she does this, but he doesn't put his foot down and stop it. Remember this, if you don't remember anything else: The wayward wife respects nothing......except strength. That's the starting line for your work. Am I making sense? She won't like it, but she'll have to respect it. As a man with NGS, that's an important fact you must get your head around. You won't save your M by trying to appease your WW. A WW is not going to like her nice-guy H who is trying to score brownie points. So, work on your self esteem. Realize your self worth. There are a several great men on the board who can talk-guy. You know what that is, right? It's when another guy tells you everything I've tried to say, only they can do it in one sentence.
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2) Yes. But, I still don't have the conclusive proof it is him.
2. If you need proof for your own sanity, then get it. Don't get proof with the notions you will wave it in her face, prompting her into admitting the truth. It's true there are some WW's who might admit it, but usually they will lie and deny, even with proof staring them in the face. It is the craziness of the WW. Also, if you intend to confront her about an affair, you must have a plan that carries you past the point of confrontation. IMHO, the confrontation does nothing more than let her know you aware of something is going on. She'll ask questions to see just how much details you know, but don't ever reveal how much you know. Many H's seem to think the WW will feel regret, apologize, and want to work on the marriage. I've seen, maybe, a handful who are good enough actresses that they pull off this initial performance.......although they have no intentions of ending contact with the affair partner. It's nothing more than a stall, designed to fool the H and take the affair deeper underground. Sometimes, upon confrontation, the WW will tell her H that she doesn't know what she wants. This leaves him hanging, while she stays home and receives benefits of being his legal W........and she continues to get her thrills from the OM. The majority of cases I've seen on the board, is where the WW twists things around to blame her H for everything, and the confrontation leads to her "excuse" that the MR could never work, and she begins the next level, which is to separate. The popular way WW's do things these days, is to say they can't afford two physical homes, so they will have to live in a in-house separation, and they try to get the H to leave the MBR. She gets the family activities, but when it comes to her life outside the family.......it's strictly off limits to her H to even ask personal questions. She pretty much calls the shots.
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3) Yes. I live in a no fault state.
3. Okay, have you checked to see about your rights to have the kids 50%, and who would pay child support? It never hurts to know where you stand legally.
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4) Both currently sleeping in MBR. There is no physical contact. There were a few nights where I was so pissed off and anxious that I slept in another room.
It's a tough place to be, however, I hope if anyone moves out of the MBR, it will be her. As the man, the leader, and the faithful spouse, you need to stay in the marital bedroom, and the marital home, b/c of the representation. Just remember, until you get your own respect, she won't respect you. Until you get her respect, you won't have her love/desire. That's the way she is wired. Therefore, everything you do from this point forward, must be with the intent of gaining self respect, and her respect. Once she respects you as a man........her love will follow. Okay?
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In our earlier talks, I told her that I would not accept infidelity and lying. I also told her I am not interested in just being married for the kids. But, I had nothing to back it up or made any real boundaries. I know I am being treated like a doormat right now. I have made a ton of NGS mistakes.
I assume you are familiar with book about NGS. It will probably be something you will always have to check yourself, but you can learn how to stop being a doormat, and other unattractive attributes that repel your W. Be sure to study about relationship boundaries, and personal boundaries. You need to understand how it works before you say something that backs you into a corner. I think the quote above was fine, and I really liked what you said about not staying married for the sake of the kids.
One more thing I want to caution you about is taking things you read from the board and passing on to your WW. It makes me cringe when I see a H crowing to his WW the message that was intended for his personal growth. It immediately clues her to know you are getting that snappy statement (or whatever) from some other place. Don't let her discover your sources of DB information, or see you watching videos, etc. These tools are for YOU, not her. The persona you need to have is a man of strength & honor, who will not put up with deceit, disrespect, betrayal, manipulation, etc. As a WW, that is what she needs to see in her H, in order to change her current opinion.
One of the most common things I've seen in H's, is their need to talk their WW back into the M. No, you can't talk her back through relationship discussions. You can't nice her back, either. Words really don't impress her, but actions do. We will talk more about that later.
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This forum has helped so much explain what is going on in my W's head.
Glad to hear it. I have written several threads with that in mind, if you care to read them.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks again Sandi. Yes, I did reply to your post from yesterday. And, yes, I recently just finished the No More Mr. Nice Guy Book. I definitely fit that characterization in many areas - especially in the passive-aggressiveness I've displayed over the years.
The one NGS thing I've never done in our marriage really is trying to earn brownie points. The begging/pleading only started when I realized we were in crisis mode and I was almost positive she was cheating. We've had a somewhat detached marriage for many years. I think her resentment towards me just built up for the lack of respect she may have for me with our differing career successes. Plus, I have had a history of just not being a very good listener. It has been really eye-opening to see where I made some really bad mistakes over the years. Validation would have been a really important tool from the start.
Scroll back a page and you'll see my replies. Also, I've read many of your posts on this board. MANY. I've gone through the LBS threads a couple times already. And, read your rules several times. I think I need to start each day reading that one. Incredibly helpful insight you provide here.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
So, it's V-day today, which will be awkward this evening.
Bought my daughters cards that W and I will sign. And, a card for my W from my 2 Ds. And, instead of getting my W, any card or anything from me, I got one card with some scratch off tix for the whole family addressed from a friend's cat that spends a lot of time in our yard (running joke with our family).
This morning, just a quick "bye" from W as she left (presumably to the gym as she does every morning).
I had my daughters sign my W's card before they left for school. My oldest asked me what I got my W. And, I kind of brushed it off, with a diffusing "it's a surprise" type of comment. She then said, "I know what she got you." I don't plan on buying anything for her regardless of what my D just told me. So, we'll see how this goes over tonight.
She then followed up with a "you and mommy argue a lot." (We really haven't recently at all actually). I tried validating with, "I'm sorry you feel that way. We just have grown-up decisions to make sometimes and don't always agree." She didn't say anything and moved on to another topic. So, that was tough for me to hear and try to talk through.
I later texted my W about signing the Ds cards. She replied, "ok, and we are leaving for our trip early tomorrow." (the trip that I am not going on). I replied, "should be fun, the girls can't wait to go." Didn't get a reply back from her.
And, later sent W a separate email about a minor school issue with my youngest D. No reply to that one.
Neither of us have acknowledged the day with each other, so far. I don't plan to until the family is all together and we exchange cards. I'm sure she found a way to celebrate with her AP.
My W bought them each several gifts which I thought was a excessive for this day. (Last week, I mistakenly asked her why she bought so many gifts in a surprising tone. And, she said quite angrily, "we've always bought them gifts for V-Day." I knew as soon as it came out of my mouth that I should not have said anything at all. Still trying to break this bad habit.)
I've been implementing a very minimalist conversation strategy with my W this week - with mostly one word replies. She really hasn't been prying or asking many questions and just seems to be matching my distance. I'm wondering how this approach works for me as this was one of the problems we had for the past few years. We have both matched each other's physical and vocal distances. So, this isn't a 180 for me and still feels like it's giving her exactly what she wants. But, given that she has essentially fired me as her H and likely in an A, is this still the correct approach? It does seem cold and distant.
I'm planning on going out solo after the girls go to bed. Probably just going to the movies. I will clean up a bit, and simply say, "I'm going out for the evening."
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
It seems detaching is the most difficult for newcomers to grasp.....much less actually doing it. I have a favorite copy of a much shorter definition/example of detaching. I'm going to paste it below.
Definition of Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love (known as to lovingly detach*), we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flip-side, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my duty/job to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanding or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she really is rather than who I want him/her to be.
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
The one NGS thing I've never done in our marriage really is trying to earn brownie points.
Sometimes the lines get blurry when a man ask himself if he is doing Acts of Service, or being a pushover. He doesn't want to be a jerk, yet he doesn't like her cake eating. When a man has been a nice-guy all his life, I think he struggles with these smaller issues b/c any action (or lack thereof) may be contrary to his usual nice-guy behavior. He has trouble seeing the picture of how a man should conduct himself without resembling the backside of a horse. It is difficult for him to understand DB detaching. Some men don't understand how to detach without acting mad/cold. IMHO, I think some nice-guys have trouble knowing how to balance it. They go from one end of the spectrum to the polar opposite, b/c they don't have a natural feel for some of the techniques recommended. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think some have difficulty visualizing how he is suppose to interact with his WW, and how to lovingly detach, while at the same time enforcing boundaries, etc.
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We've had a somewhat detached marriage for many years. I think her resentment towards me just built up for the lack of respect she may have for me with our differing career successes. Plus, I have had a history of just not being a very good listener. It has been really eye-opening to see where I made some really bad mistakes over the years. Validation would have been a really important tool from the start.
When a woman marries, I think she has a need to feel intimately connected with their H. You might think of it as emotional intimacy. It's as if your soul and her soul lovingly come together. It's a way of making love, without physically having sex. However, if her need to feel intimately connected with her H is satisfied, I think it will definitely lead to her desire for physical intimacy.
Women wants to be heard by the man she loves. If she feels her H is not hearing her, by either dismissing what she says or turns a deaf ear when she's trying to talk to him.........it causes hurt, frustration, resentment, coldness, etc. Long-term, I think, it causes emotional damage between the spouses. I'm not saying the differing career successes did not play a part.......but I think the seeds of resentment were already there, which made way for a lack of respect. I'm speaking from the viewpoint of a woman, and her emotional needs within her marriage relationship. Without a strong intimate connection, everything becomes like stacking monster trucks on a weak bridge.
What can you do about emotionally connecting with her now? When a WW is in the act of rebellion against her marriage & husband, and has brought a third party into the M.........I suggest that there are two ways. You'll have to stay focused and find balance, or you'll go to one end of the spectrum or the other. First, let's talk about listening. Considering her bad behavior (manipulation, deceit, gaslighting, etc.) you don't want to appear as if you are not keenly aware of her little bag tricks. Remember, your biggest job right now is to be a tower of strength and dignity. So, if she is verbally vomiting on you, screaming, cursing, etc...........I don't think you should sit there and listen to her speak disrespectfully to you. However, if she is not lying, speaking vulgarly, gaslighting, etc........then you can look at her as she talks. If you can validate her feelings, that's fine. I may stand alone on this, but I think newbie LBH's need to be careful when they are eager to apply validation. They seldom report what they actually said, just that they "validated". So, remember, first of all, she is wayward (whether she's having an affair, or not), she has a wayward mindset and is in rebellion. I've seen newbie H's completely over-kill in their attempts to validate. I encourage you to study Wonka's thread on validation. Also, Another Stander is incredibly talented when it comes to validating statements. Validation does not mean you agree with her. IMHO, I think when dealing with a WW, the H has to be careful that he doesn't sound as if he is justifying her decisions or actions. Make sense? I think the safest way, for anyone who doesn't know how to validate, is to just look at her when she's talking, and nod their head that they are hearing her. BTW, you can practice validating others, too, like you did with your little girl.
Valentines day, and other holidays, can cause the H to feel as if he is in no-man's land without a guide. It's tough when you have a couple of little girls observing. (Are they twins? How old?) I think you handled it well. Valentines and wedding anniversaries are the two most romantic themed holidays, so you've got one down. What's the next thing coming up?
You may feel you are walking a tightrope for a long time, but we will do our best to help you. I encourage you to evaluate yourself and decide where you need improvement as a man. That's first. Make a plan or set specific goals on how you can make positive changes on yourself (appearance, personality, attitude, confidence, social skills, intellect......whatever). How can you work on your NGS? You may be frustrated and want to focus on the MR, but if you work on the man, first, you'll find you have the confidence to handle the challenges in the MR. Some of the things will naturally overlap from man to husband.
While you are planning how to improve the man, I suggest you put a lot of thought into your personal boundaries. The purpose of boundaries are for protection. They are based on your values, integrity, honor, religious/moral belief system. Don't start walking around the house proclaiming your list of boundaries, thinking your W will get her act together. Every WW is going to test your personal boundaries, and relationship boundaries. The wedding vows should have been pretty clear about fidelity, but WW's are not honorable and they justify their actions/feelings. You've told her you would not tolerate infidelity (however you worded it), so that is a boundary. Okay, so whenever your boundary is dishonored, there needs to be some type of action from you......and I don't mean having a talk. She is free to make the decision to honor or ignore your boundary. If she doesn't honor your boundary, then you do whatever action will protect you. You may tell her to find somewhere else to stay. You may decide to legally S or D, if she won't end her affair and do the necessary work on the MR. I'm not telling you what to do. Just throwing out some examples.
You might consider trying something on a smaller scale. For instance, I like to use phone calls as an example. If she calls you and is speaking inappropriately, you tell her you will hang up if she doesn't lower her voice, stop cursing, etc. If she chooses not to talk respectfully, you just hang up the phone. She will be furious, but so what? She can get glad in the same rags she got mad. It's up to her, but you draw the line at anyone talking inappropriately over the phone to you. You stay in charge of protecting your feelings. You don't scream threats at her. Make sense?
Another thing, and maybe I've already said this previously. You don't sit down and have a discussion with your WW about the boundaries you have set. If you feel it necessary to state a boundary, then do it, but you don't discuss it. If you state a boundary, be prepared to enforce it. How do you enforce it? You back it up with an action that is as powerful as the disrespect taken against you. In other words, a boundary without consequences.... is completely ineffective.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thanks for your lengthy reply Sandi. It's really appreciated! I'll go through it and reply to it.
So, V-Day didn't turn out to be as awkward as I expected. Exchanged cards and gifts with the girls. They had a great time with this.
W got me a box of chocolates, but no card. I never bought her a card. Did not look at her to see if she was visibly upset about this. We never said "happy v-day" to each other the entire day. First time ever.
Afterwards, they did some last minute packing for their wknd trip the following morning. And, the girls then went to bed. I started cleaning up to go out. And, as I'm putting my shoes on to leave, W walks by and I casually tell her I'm headed out for the evening.
She made an angry sigh and walked away saying, "so, are you going to go out every night now?"
I asked in a very casual tone, "sorry, what do you mean by that?"
W: "you have been going out every night this week." Me: "yes, that's true. I have been going to the gym after the girls go to bed." W: "well, you're clearly not going to the gym tonight." Me: "that's correct. I'm not." I was tempted to ask her, "why, did you want to do something together?" Glad I didn't.
W: "well, I'm setting the alarm for 5 am tomorrow. We are leaving early." Me: "okay."
She didn't ask what I was doing nor did I offer up any further information. But, she was visibly upset and stormed off to another part of the room.
Me: "okay, well, I'm headed out now so I'll see you later." W made a barely audible reply, and I left.
I ended up grabbing a coffee and then went to see a 10:30 pm showing of 1917. It was very odd to be doing this on V-Day. Especially seeing other couples out. And, I was dressed up pretty nice for the movies. I didn't feel lonely or anything. But, it was still odd to be out alone on V-Day when I'm married. Oh well, I grabbed a bucket of popcorn and a soda and enjoyed the movie.
Got home after 1 am. Climbed into bed and W didn't make a peep.
The next morning the W and Ds were up at 5:30 am to leave. I got up to say goodbye to them. I'm sure my W was surprised to see me so alert. Prob thought I was out at a bar and must be hungover. Said a nice goodbye to the girls and W. She barely made any eye contact with me.
Since they've been gone, I've been GALing like crazy. Going to the gym every night; signed up for some guitar lessons; did quite a bit of work on the next phase of a small carpentry project I'm doing for the girls; did a little shopping; went to the library and read some more of the 5 Love Languages book; ate out at a great sushi bar (solo) last night; made an omelette for breakfast; and grabbed some pho for lunch today from a Vietnamese restaurant I've been meaning to try.
I've also been being more attentive to the people I've communicated with out in public. Just having nice random conversations with other shoppers and cashiers. Keeping everything very light and comical. It feels good to just have these small connections with strangers.
This morning I spent a couple hours on my computer researching and signing up for several meetup.com groups in the local area. I'm excited to join some of these things. Just reading about them made me realize I put a lot of my personal interests on hold trying to be Joe Family Man all the time and following my Ws leads and her ideas for our weekend plans.
My Ds called me a couple of times while they've been away which was great. Even though I've been so busy this wknd, it was really sweet to talk to them and find out how their trip has been going. They are having a great time.
I did not talk to my W or inquire about her. Just told my Ds each time to say hi to everyone else. We exchanged a few basic logistical type of texts, but that's it for our communication.
It's been a good few days.
Last edited by RVM; 02/16/2011:17 PM.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
To update my sit on the few weeks since V-Day weekend.
They came back home from the long wknd on a day I was working. I also had my first guitar lesson that night, so I went straight from work to it. Got home after 8 pm, and was warmly greeted by my kids, all expressing how much they missed me.
W just gave me a casual, “Hi.” Never asked me how my wknd was, or even shared any pics from their wknd together. I didn’t ask either. The kids told me all about the wknd, they had a great time and I was very enthusiastically happy for them.
A few recent events:
My W had a biz trip last week, for a few days. She mentioned she’d be doing this over a month ago, but never gave me the dates or any details back then. So, she drops this news on me, a week before. It was really upsetting, and I did let her know it.
It was completely out of character for her to do this (based on pre-WWS character). And, it did seem really shady that she hadn’t shared any details. She said “oh, I thought I gave you all of this information.” It put me in an awkward position b/c I had to then plan to work from home b/c my office is too far away from my kids’ schools. She never apologized for it.
So, she goes on this trip, and does text a bit with me while she’s away for logistical updates on our kids – D7 had just come down with a bad cold, and missed a day of school The other D10 also caught the sickness later that week, and missed school as well. Never asked how I was doing with it all, etc.
W gets back from trip, again, we just casually say hello, no other real details shared.
The next night we were invited to a neighbor’s house for potluck dinner with a few other families. I reached out to a neighbor friend an hour beforehand and we decided to have a beer at his house beforehand. W was working on some dish in the kitchen, and I just told her I’m headed over to my friend’s house for a beer. Her reaction was one of a bit of shock, as it was clear that she expected we would be going over to the neighbor’s house together or something. Needless to say, we’d barely uttered a word to each other all day.
I just said, “okay, I’m headed over to his house now.” And, I left.
Hung out at friend’s house for a while, then went over to our friends’ place for dinner. She was sitting with others at a table, and I just walked in and socialized with some of the guys in the kitchen. We never really spoke. I also helped the guys with some last minute food prep.
When it was time to eat, people grabbed plates of food and found spots to sit. W was sitting again, with other friends at a table. I was one of the last to serve myself and as I was walking to sit down in another room with a friend, I heard her comment, “there’s a chair here next to me.” I didn’t acknowledge the comment as I was already around the corner, in another room, halfway sitting down already.
On the surface, it may have looked like I intentionally ignored her, but since I never really looked at her as I was walking by, I had no idea she had an open chair next to her. I had no intention of sitting next to her, but I would have just nicely said to her, “I’m gonna go sit out here with ___.” There was no followup discussion about that possibly perceived slighting.
So, we’re having fun separately at the party, we didn’t speak at all to each other, but it also wasn’t awkward for me. I don’t know about her opinion of that. She seems very self-conscious about how we present our public R to others. Yet, behind closed doors, we could not be more far apart these days.
I ended up staying late to hang out with my friends (which I had let her know I would be doing earlier that day.) My kids were a bit upset that I wasn’t going home with them. But, we had nice good night hugs. W never said goodbye when they left.
Since then, it’s been more of the same routine. Kids go to school, W and I go to work, and are mostly on a very basic “hi-bye” type of oral communication level, with random logistical types of text exchanges about the kids or things relevant to the house.
W sways from being smiley and nice to me, to making passive-aggressive comments/judgments, or acting really smug and dismissive – almost as if she’s flaunting her A with OM. I’ve mostly done a good job at not reacting to these tests. It’s tough, as that’s one of things I failed miserably at in the past.
I try not to get bogged down into wondering what’s she’s thinking/planning, etc. And, when I do start going down that path, I try to find some other activity to occupy myself. I’ll also just leave the room and go into the bathroom or something.
My GAL’ing has mostly been: • lots of activities with my kids • going to the gym after the kids go to bed • guitar lessons once a week; otherwise, I’m practicing at home (I love it so far.) • random home improvement types of projects • meeting up with friends • reading; going to the library • window shopping, just to get the eff out of the house sometimes
I also had my first IC session yesterday. I basically just rehashed all of the events of the past year. It went well. I was completely comfortable talking and will be going for another visit next week. This forum has been a tremendous help in processing everything I’ve experienced.
One of the big questions the counselor asked me was, “what is my goal for our R and the counseling?”
I more or less replied, “well, despite how awful this past year has been, I still want to save my M. I don’t know if I can or even want to at this point. But, I will likely set a deadline for how long I can manage this, as it feels really unhealthy. More importantly, I’m here to work on myself – dealing with adversity and working on being the best person I can be – for me and my kids.”
Besides everything else, one thing I'm really struggling with on a daily basis is how my sex life has been completely shut down for months now. I don't know how long-time DB'ers manage this.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
Some friends sent out a group text, W and I were both in it, inviting us out to a group couples dinner. I hadn’t responded. But, W replied back saying “We don’t have a babysitter for our kids that night. But, H can go and I will watch the kids.” We never even discussed this as an option. Nor did we even have any conversation at all about going out.
I was a bit offended that she spoke for both of us, and put me in mildly awkward position. I didn’t say anything to her, nor did I reply to the text. (this group of friends does know we are not in a good place right now) I wasn’t really excited about going to this anyway. It just seems really fake. We’d probably individually enjoy ourselves with our friends, but it is awkward being out together in a situation like this.
Later, I was out at the gym, and she sent me a message that she reached out to our friends we carpool with and told her that we’d bring her D to swim practice. Both of our families’ Ds do this together and we alternate transport to practice every week. I was actually hoping to take them this time. But, I didn’t get the chance to put that offer up. I replied back to my W, “I was going to offer this week. But, that’s fine, you can take them.” W did not reply.
Today, my youngest D7 had a small play at school. I wfh and W went into office. We never discussed how we’d go to the school – either separately or together. I was planning to walk there – it’s really close to home. W texted me right as I was walking out the door, and said she was planning to go to school directly from work, unless I wanted to be picked up. I just replied, “no, I’m good, going to walk there.” No reply from W.
Met her at the play and we were pleasant together. I chose a spot for us to sit, and as she usually does, second guessed my seating choice (in a pleasant way), but didn’t make an issue out of it, and we sat down. Great show, D7 was super happy. After, we met up in D’s classroom and was allowed to bring her home.
I asked D if she wanted to walk back, and she did. W drove back home. As we were walking out, I asked my D if she wanted me to grill her something for lunch. She laughed and said “I already ate lunch.” And, my W, laughed and commented in a smuggish manner, “it’s 2 pm, she ate hours ago. It’s too late for lunch.” I made a joke about my habit of eating late lunches, and just said, “well, I can also grill you something anyway, it’s really nice out today.” I’ve just gotten better at stifling my negative reactions to my wife's endless snipes.
Another similar example was the night before, I opened up the dishwasher to unload it as I ran it that morning. W saw me and said, “I’m running it again tonight, I was surprised you ran it when it wasn’t even full yet.” (Meanwhile, she’s done this many times over the years.) I made no comment back and just moved on.
I could probably write a small book on how many different ways my W has disapproved of me using the dishwasher – loading, unloading, running, etc. In the past, I used to react immediately to her passive-aggressive comments on it or watching her actually reload dishes "the right way" immediately after I load them, but I’ve been much more self-aware recently and tend to just nod or say okay, and move on. But, the constant petty judgments still gets under my skin.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
"Some friends sent out a group text, W and I were both in it, inviting us out to a group couples dinner. I hadn’t responded. But, W replied back saying “We don’t have a babysitter for our kids that night. But, H can go and I will watch the kids.” We never even discussed this as an option. Nor did we even have any conversation at all about going out.
I was a bit offended that she spoke for both of us, and put me in mildly awkward position. I didn’t say anything to her, nor did I reply to the text. (this group of friends does know we are not in a good place right now) I wasn’t really excited about going to this anyway. It just seems really fake. We’d probably individually enjoy ourselves with our friends, but it is awkward being out together in a situation like this."
Text back to the group: "While I appreciate the invite, I already have plans that night."
That will drive her nuts! And she has already offered to watch the kids. So find something else to do that night and go do it. AND HAVE FUN!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
As mentioned in previous post W makes a lot of passive-aggressive, argument-baiting judgy comments towards me - often done low-key in front of the kids. I’ve been mostly good about responding with nods or “okay” type of comments. But, overall I am struggling with this and mostly it is because it just feels like she’s potentially poisoning my kids’ minds. Any suggestions on how to handle these situations? Should I bring this issue up with my W? Or just validate or ignore and move on?
Another question in regards to GAL. So, besides the things I’ve mentioned earlier, I have gotten dressed up nicely after the kids have gone to bed and just said, “I’m going out tonight” and left.
I’m not concerned about going out and not giving her details of what I’m doing. But, I am concerned that 1) Since these things happen without giving W any real advance notice, W may think I’m just avoiding parental responsibility (if kids wake up, etc).
2) W may also think I’m being reckless or spiteful – i.e. going out to bars and drinking. She knows I go to the gym almost every weeknight. But, the weekend nights, she really has no idea what I’ve been up to.
She did make a comment a few weeks ago – “are you going to go out every night now?” in a disapproving/angry tone. But, hasn’t said anything since then about my GAL activities and does not show any emotion regarding my activities.
We are not currently S or D. But, she has said a few times over the past few months, that "if we ever get D, I want it to be amicable."
Sandi, et al. I'd like some feedback on my past few posts.
Last edited by RVM; 03/06/2004:10 PM.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
As mentioned in previous post W makes a lot of passive-aggressive, argument-baiting judgy comments towards me - often done low-key in front of the kids. I’ve been mostly good about responding with nods or “okay” type of comments. But, overall I am struggling with this and mostly it is because it just feels like she’s potentially poisoning my kids’ minds. Any suggestions on how to handle these situations? Should I bring this issue up with my W? Or just validate or ignore and move on?
Stop nodding, or saying okay to them. IGNORE THEM. Your kids minds aren't going to be poisoned to you based on what your W says, they will be based on what you do. So give them no reason to think of you as anything other than an awesome dad.
Originally Posted by RVM
Another question in regards to GAL. So, besides the things I’ve mentioned earlier, I have gotten dressed up nicely after the kids have gone to bed and just said, “I’m going out tonight” and left.
I’m not concerned about going out and not giving her details of what I’m doing. But, I am concerned that 1) Since these things happen without giving W any real advance notice, W may think I’m just avoiding parental responsibility (if kids wake up, etc).
I really wouldn't care what she thinks. Work on your detachment.
Originally Posted by RVM
2) W may also think I’m being reckless or spiteful – i.e. going out to bars and drinking. She knows I go to the gym almost every weeknight. But, the weekend nights, she really has no idea what I’ve been up to.
See answer above.
Originally Posted by RVM
She did make a comment a few weeks ago – “are you going to go out every night now?” in a disapproving/angry tone. But, hasn’t said anything since then about my GAL activities and does not show any emotion regarding my activities.
If it comes up again simply say: "I am trying to stay busy to deal with everything that has happened." And then shutup and listen and validate. "Well, you going out all the time makes me feel like you are avoiding your parental duties." You: 'I can understand how you'd feel that, way. The kids are already in bed before I go out. If they wake up and you need assistance, just text me."
Originally Posted by RVM
We are not currently S or D. But, she has said a few times over the past few months, that "if we ever get D, I want it to be amicable."
Sandi, et al. I'd like some feedback on my past few posts.
They all say that. "I understand how you feel, and I agree that we should do so amicably with a focus on the our kids."
As far as feedback, I'd like to know what you are doing about dinner with your friends?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
As far as feedback, I'd like to know what you are doing about dinner with your friends?
I'm not going out with them. I'm also not excited about now giving your response as a reason as too much time has passed, that saying that now isn't a good look. These friends I would say are closer to her than me. But, I liked your response and should have used that immediately. And, I believe I will still go out as W has given the okay (without us ever discussing the topic.)
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
As mentioned in previous post W makes a lot of passive-aggressive, argument-baiting judgy comments towards me - often done low-key in front of the kids. I’ve been mostly good about responding with nods or “okay” type of comments. But, overall I am struggling with this and mostly it is because it just feels like she’s potentially poisoning my kids’ minds. Any suggestions on how to handle these situations? Should I bring this issue up with my W? Or just validate or ignore and move on? [/quote]
Originally Posted by Steve85
Stop nodding, or saying okay to them. IGNORE THEM. Your kids minds aren't going to be poisoned to you based on what your W says, they will be based on what you do. So give them no reason to think of you as anything other than an awesome dad.
Agreed. And, this is what I do almost all of the time.
Originally Posted by RVM
She did make a comment a few weeks ago – “are you going to go out every night now?” in a disapproving/angry tone. But, hasn’t said anything since then about my GAL activities and does not show any emotion regarding my activities.
Originally Posted by Steve85
If it comes up again simply say: "I am trying to stay busy to deal with everything that has happened." And then shutup and listen and validate. "Well, you going out all the time makes me feel like you are avoiding your parental duties." You: 'I can understand how you'd feel that, way. The kids are already in bed before I go out. If they wake up and you need assistance, just text me."
Good replies, thanks.
Originally Posted by RVM
We are not currently S or D. But, she has said a few times over the past few months, that "if we ever get D, I want it to be amicable."
Sandi, et al. I'd like some feedback on my past few posts.
Originally Posted by Steve85
They all say that. "I understand how you feel, and I agree that we should do so amicably with a focus on the our kids."
Good to know. I've done this. I think the one mistake I kept making was bringing that topic up when I was really in my depressed fog a few months ago.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
Agreed. I tried that and failed miserably for months after BD. Once my depression-fog lifted, I've been better about this - albeit with plenty of mistakes.
I'm at a stage right now, that I'm not even sure I want her back. If my kids were older I might have more conviction to file for D. She is so far removed from the person I knew and loved. Looking back at the 1+ years, I see where all the deception and lies were made. And, her outright gas lighting of me with friends and family had me reeling for a long time. I'm not sure how I'll get past that.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
W sways from being smiley and nice to me, to making passive-aggressive comments/judgments, or acting really smug and dismissive – almost as if she’s flaunting her A with OM. I’ve mostly done a good job at not reacting to these tests. It’s tough, as that’s one of things I failed miserably at in the past.
Is that how you see her passive-aggressive comments/judgments and behaving smug and dismissive...........as "tests"? In the past, how did you respond or react to this type of behavior?
Quote
As mentioned in previous post W makes a lot of passive-aggressive, argument-baiting judgy comments towards me - often done low-key in front of the kids. I’ve been mostly good about responding with nods or “okay” type of comments. But, overall I am struggling with this and mostly it is because it just feels like she’s potentially poisoning my kids’ minds.
RVM, these are disrespectful behavior patterns a WW uses. They might be seen as a test, in the sense the WW will always test her H's manhood. The more she loathes him, the more she'll put him down in front of his children, relatives, friends, etc. She is teaching her daughters how to verbally reduce the man to a pathetic doormat. If the H lets it slide, then he is showing his daughters that men are inferior and must endure the cruel tongue of his WW. That's harshly stated, but you get the idea. I think it becomes a pattern, and the H with NGS tells himself not to make a big deal of it and ignore. Kids take in everything their parents say/do to each other, so we are constantly painting a picture for them, about their future role in a MR, and the role of their partner.
I don't believe spouses should argue/fight in front of their children.......nor make put-downs, snide remarks, etc. I think there are men who know how to respond to this type of disrespect, and thereby, teach the children that the H should not tolerate such disrespect....especially, under his own roof. However, if he is a nice-guy and has never called his W's hand on how she speaks disrespectfully.......it might not be the wisest thing to make the first attempt in front of the kids, or anyone else....... b/c the war would be on! And, RVM, you never validate disrespectful behavior. To "ignore and move on", IMHO, is an invitation for more to come. The WW's verbal disrespect toward her H, should first be addressed privately, to let her know he is not going to roll over & play dead the next time it happens. That's why H's find themselves being treated like a doormat, b/c they would not stand up for themselves.
I want you to think about what you would do if you told her not to speak to you that way, and she responded by asking what you'd do if she chose not to stop. These are the things you need to consider. That's why you need to understand how to use effective boundaries. Boundaries are put in place to protect your feelings. If the other person chooses to ignore your boundary, then you need to have a plan of action. In other words, if you privately tell your WW that you will no longer tolerate her passive-aggressive, snide, disrespectful comments in front of the children........what action are you prepared to take, if she challenges you? I can guarantee she'll challenge you the first time, just to see if you have the guts to stand up to her. There is no point in speaking a boundary, if you aren't prepared to back it up with action.
If you have not read on the subject of personal & relationship boundaries, please do it ASAP. Maybe you can draw us a picture of her saying things you felt were passive-aggressive, smug or dismissive? Pl,ease don't even mention the word "boundary" until you have it down solid and know what you're doing. Don't be like some men in past times, who dug a deeper hole b/c they didn't do their homework.
Quote
Another question in regards to GAL. So, besides the things I’ve mentioned earlier, I have gotten dressed up nicely after the kids have gone to bed and just said, “I’m going out tonight” and left.
Great!
Quote
I’m not concerned about going out and not giving her details of what I’m doing. But, I am concerned that 1) Since these things happen without giving W any real advance notice, W may think I’m just avoiding parental responsibility (if kids wake up, etc).
No, you're just thinking like a nice-guy.
I don't want to contradict something previous stated on the subject of GAL, but if both spouses are GAL, then some advance notice may be necessary. If not, she'll beat you out the door. She'll plan ways of sticking you with the kids. You don't have to give details, but in order to make sure someone will be there with the kids, you may need to tell her you plan to go out on such & such night.
Quote
2) W may also think I’m being reckless or spiteful – i.e. going out to bars and drinking. She knows I go to the gym almost every weeknight. But, the weekend nights, she really has no idea what I’ve been up to.
She's not worried about her nice-guy H being reckless, going out to bars and drinking.
Quote
She did make a comment a few weeks ago – “are you going to go out every night now?” in a disapproving/angry tone.
Coming from a WW, that's rich (sarcasm intended). Don't fear her disapproval or angry mood. It's not your trustworthiness in question here, it's your WW's.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
W sways from being smiley and nice to me, to making passive-aggressive comments/judgments, or acting really smug and dismissive – almost as if she’s flaunting her A with OM. I’ve mostly done a good job at not reacting to these tests. It’s tough, as that’s one of things I failed miserably at in the past.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Is that how you see her passive-aggressive comments/judgments and behaving smug and dismissive...........as "tests"? In the past, how did you respond or react to this type of behavior?
I'm not sure if tests is the correct word. But, they do feel like tests of my manhood. I'll have to start gathering examples so I can get some good feedback from you. However, in the past, I reacted almost immediately with defensive arguments back in not such a nice demeanor. Unfortunately, this happened in front of the kids sometimes. So, my wife would make snide comments under her breath, and I would snap back. And, we never had any follow up to whatever the argument was. We'd either both give the silent treatment for awhile (or moreso I would), and there would be tension in the air for awhile.
Quote
As mentioned in previous post W makes a lot of passive-aggressive, argument-baiting judgy comments towards me - often done low-key in front of the kids. I’ve been mostly good about responding with nods or “okay” type of comments. But, overall I am struggling with this and mostly it is because it just feels like she’s potentially poisoning my kids’ minds.
Originally Posted by sandi2
RVM, these are disrespectful behavior patterns a WW uses. They might be seen as a test, in the sense the WW will always test her H's manhood. The more she loathes him, the more she'll put him down in front of his children, relatives, friends, etc. She is teaching her daughters how to verbally reduce the man to a pathetic doormat. If the H lets it slide, then he is showing his daughters that men are inferior and must endure the cruel tongue of his WW. That's harshly stated, but you get the idea. I think it becomes a pattern, and the H with NGS tells himself not to make a big deal of it and ignore. Kids take in everything their parents say/do to each other, so we are constantly painting a picture for them, about their future role in a MR, and the role of their partner.
I don't believe spouses should argue/fight in front of their children.......nor make put-downs, snide remarks, etc. I think there are men who know how to respond to this type of disrespect, and thereby, teach the children that the H should not tolerate such disrespect....especially, under his own roof. However, if he is a nice-guy and has never called his W's hand on how she speaks disrespectfully.......it might not be the wisest thing to make the first attempt in front of the kids, or anyone else....... b/c the war would be on! And, RVM, you never validate disrespectful behavior. To "ignore and move on", IMHO, is an invitation for more to come. The WW's verbal disrespect toward her H, should first be addressed privately, to let her know he is not going to roll over & play dead the next time it happens. That's why H's find themselves being treated like a doormat, b/c they would not stand up for themselves.
I want you to think about what you would do if you told her not to speak to you that way, and she responded by asking what you'd do if she chose not to stop. These are the things you need to consider. That's why you need to understand how to use effective boundaries. Boundaries are put in place to protect your feelings. If the other person chooses to ignore your boundary, then you need to have a plan of action. In other words, if you privately tell your WW that you will no longer tolerate her passive-aggressive, snide, disrespectful comments in front of the children........what action are you prepared to take, if she challenges you? I can guarantee she'll challenge you the first time, just to see if you have the guts to stand up to her. There is no point in speaking a boundary, if you aren't prepared to back it up with action.
If you have not read on the subject of personal & relationship boundaries, please do it ASAP. Maybe you can draw us a picture of her saying things you felt were passive-aggressive, smug or dismissive? Pl,ease don't even mention the word "boundary" until you have it down solid and know what you're doing. Don't be like some men in past times, who dug a deeper hole b/c they didn't do their homework.
The fear of arguing in front of my kids is what has driven me to mostly just ignore her comments. And, I don't have consequences set up if she violates my internal boundaries on this type of disrepect. I have discussed this with her before in private and told her I wouldn't tolerate her low-key putdowns or emasculating types of comments. But, I didn't offer any real consequences. Do you have any recommended reading on the personal/relationship boundaries? Right now, we don't have any real relationship to speak of other than essentially co-parenting from the same house.
Quote
2) W may also think I’m being reckless or spiteful – i.e. going out to bars and drinking. She knows I go to the gym almost every weeknight. But, the weekend nights, she really has no idea what I’ve been up to.
Originally Posted by sandi2
She's not worried about her nice-guy H being reckless, going out to bars and drinking.
I should qualify this - I'm more concerned that she will paint a bad picture of me to others (family, friends) because she doesn't know what I'm doing at night. I've already witnessed what she's capable of saying when I'm right there in the room. She knows I'm extremely suspicious of her behavior and has been on the defense (or attack) ever since I confronted her about it months ago. My mysterious nighttime GAL'ing might be more ammunition for her to paint a bad picture of me.
As always, thanks again for all your insights, they're really appreciated! I will try to get some better examples of her disrespectful behavior towards me.
Last edited by RVM; 03/06/2008:32 PM.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
I should qualify this - I'm more concerned that she will paint a bad picture of me to others (family, friends) because she doesn't know what I'm doing at night. I've already witnessed what she's capable of saying when I'm right there in the room. She knows I'm extremely suspicious of her behavior and has been on the defense (or attack) ever since I confronted her about it months ago. My mysterious nighttime GAL'ing might be more ammunition for her to paint a bad picture of me.
For example - and this has happened a couple of times - when I've told her I'm going out with no details, she's directly asked me:
"what do I tell the kids because they'll ask?" or
"what do we tell our friends, they'll ask?" (if in a situation when we were all invited to friend's)
Since some friends sense there's issues in our R and likely my oldest D does to - I'm a bit sensitive to how I may be portrayed in this sitch. These people don't know about her awful behavior, yet.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
"what do we tell our friends, they'll ask?" (if in a situation when we were all invited to friend's)
Since some friends sense there's issues in our R and likely my oldest D does to - I'm a bit sensitive to how I may be portrayed in this sitch. These people don't know about her awful behavior, yet.
Why give someone who portrays you negatively, the responsibility and control of relaying your message? "I'll talk to D", "I already talked to D", "I'll talk to our friend", "I already talked to our friend." If in some case the message doesn't matter to you at all--she's like "What do I tell the Barista?", then just "Up to you. :)"
It is kinda important that your D feel comfortable with your comings and goings. When I go somewhere when my D is home, she knows how to reach me, and when I'll return. She often asks where I'm going.
"what do we tell our friends, they'll ask?" (if in a situation when we were all invited to friend's)
Since some friends sense there's issues in our R and likely my oldest D does to - I'm a bit sensitive to how I may be portrayed in this sitch. These people don't know about her awful behavior, yet.
Why give someone who portrays you negatively, the responsibility and control of relaying your message? "I'll talk to D", "I already talked to D", "I'll talk to our friend", "I already talked to our friend." If in some case the message doesn't matter to you at all--she's like "What do I tell the Barista?", then just "Up to you. :)"
It is kinda important that your D feel comfortable with your comings and goings. When I go somewhere when my D is home, she knows how to reach me, and when I'll return. She often asks where I'm going.
I agree with all of that.
The examples I gave were times when I have made last minute decisions to go out and my kids were in bed already or my family was on their way over to our friends' house and I'm not home yet, etc.
I just want to call a better audible in those kind of impromptu moments that isn't deceitful or somehow frightening for my children should they wake up or ask my wife a lot of questions which they certainly will do. At the same time, it is really none of her business what I'm doing.
When I do already have advanced plans, I definitely let my kids know ahead of time.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
The examples I gave were times when I have made last minute decisions to go out and my kids were in bed already
Single parent a decade--never done that. My S can always come running to me, for example, if he has nightmares or there's a storm. Do last-minute late night plans come up often? I sometimes leave before they're up for a breakfast run. In that case I leave them a note. That could work here? I like leaving little notes to my kids. I add a "To S, <3 Dada", sometimes I embellish it with rays around it.
The examples I gave were times when I have made last minute decisions to go out and my kids were in bed already
Single parent a decade--never done that. I wouldn't want my kids to worry about my whereabouts in the middle of the night. Do last-minute late night plans come up often? I sometimes leave before they're up for a breakfast run. In that case I leave them a note and they know from experience I'm always back soon.
I hope you're not reading that I'm leaving kids home alone. I still life with my W. If I'm going out that night, she's there. I'd never leave them home alone.
Last minute decisions have happened a few times since I've tried DBing more - i.e. W will get a text from our neighbors inviting our family over for dinner. I then get the invite from her. But, I'm not home from work yet. When she gets these invites, she often will just say "yes" for the whole family. Pre-BD, this was no problem.
Her saying "yes" on our behalf strikes me as blatant cake-eating by having the full family together for these things. I don't want her assuming that she can do this anymore. So, yes, I've called some audibles to do something else while they go together.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
I hope you're not reading that I'm leaving kids home alone. I still life with my W. If I'm going out that night, she's there. I'd never leave them home alone.
No, I didn't infer you left them home alone. PS - I DO leave my kids alone sometimes!
Just suggesting 1) a cute, handwritten note takes just a minute and directly tells your little ones you're thinking about them and how they can reach you, and 2) I'd aim to disappear in the middle of the night no more than your "partner", so your kids can rely on you equally in the middle of the night.
I hope you're not reading that I'm leaving kids home alone. I still life with my W. If I'm going out that night, she's there. I'd never leave them home alone.
No, I didn't infer you left them home alone. PS - I DO leave my kids alone sometimes!
Just suggesting 1) a cute, handwritten note takes just a minute and directly tells your little ones you're thinking about them and how they can reach you, and 2) I'd aim to disappear in the middle of the night no more than your "partner", so your kids can rely on you equally in the middle of the night.
Gotcha. Good points there. I like the notes ideas. It’s been tricky navigating the GAL at night. The kids know about me going to the gym after they go to bed midweek and have no problem with that.
My W really has toned down her night events - which were almost always midweek right after work: “catching up on some work” or “work group dinners.” Since she knows I’m very suspicious of her, I believe she’s taken her A deeper underground by having their encounters early in the morning or immediately after work. The occasional really late nights occurred leading up to the BD.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
Here's the thing, RVM, you have a lot of fear that you've got to let go. You fear you are going to be seen as the bad guy by your kids, friends, family, etc. That fear prevents you from standing up for yourself. BTW, standing up for yourself is not the same as being defensive.
Imagine your W as a schoolyard bully. How much good is going to do to have a conversation with the bully about how you feel, or try to defend yourself? Talks do no good. So, what can you do to stop the bullying?
First of all, you have to overcome your fear, or else do it (whatever it is) in spite of being afraid. Next, you have to know how far you are willing to go, in order to protect yourself emotionally. You have to decide how important self respect is to you. How important is your kids respect for you? How important is your W's respect for you?
If you knew she would never stop saying things in front of the kids (or others), what would you do? Would you give up and continue to live in it? Would you decide to separate or divorce? You have to determine how valuable self respect is to you. When you figure out how valuable your self respect is, then I think half the battle will be won, b/c you will walk & talk like a confident man who doesn't take stuff off anyone.
Since you've already told her that you won't tolerate her saying disrespectful things in front of the kids, the next step is deciding what you'll do. Walking out of the room isn't very effective, since the kids are watching, b/c they just see mom getting away disrespecting dad.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
If you knew she would never stop saying things in front of the kids (or others), what would you do? Would you give up and continue to live in it? Would you decide to separate or divorce? You have to determine how valuable self respect is to you. When you figure out how valuable your self respect is, then I think half the battle will be won, b/c you will walk & talk like a confident man who doesn't take stuff off anyone.
These are all the questions I battle daily. I very much realize that I have to draw the line and establish clear consequences. I guess I need some advice on appropriate consequences. I've tried confronting her/walking out of the room at times, but those don't hold any water nor do they look great in front of anyone.
I do feel like I have to set a deadline on when I've had enough; time to file for divorce and move completely forward with my life.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
It sounds as if you've struggled with disrespect for quite some time. Do you have this type of problem with anyone else.......like, co-workers or family members (other than your W)? Verbal disrespect comes in all shapes & sizes. For example, let's say you are at the workplace, and a co-worker makes a jab at you. If you happen to react with a little anger, then the offender tells you to loosen up and that it was just a joke. Here's what I notice. It's usually the same offender that takes every opportunity to make a jab. It gets really old, and can make you dread going to work, or wherever it happens. That's why it is comparable to a schoolyard bully, IMHO. When it gets bad enough, it makes your life miserable.
Some people are gifted with a quick comeback that can put the offender in his/her place, but then some people don't know what to say or do........until later when thinking it over for the ninety-ninth time.
Confidence is key! If you have a lot of male confidence, others can tell, just by the way you walk, talk, etc. Male confidence is the number one trait that attracts women (so I've read). When dealing with verbal disrespect from your W, it's important to draw all you can from that confidence, b/c when you need to be firm.........you'll need to appear as a man of strength/courage.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
It sounds as if you've struggled with disrespect for quite some time. Do you have this type of problem with anyone else.......like, co-workers or family members (other than your W)? Verbal disrespect comes in all shapes & sizes.
No, not at all. And, this only started when she became wayward. It's not a daily occurrence. My W also has had a history of making these judgy/bossy/petty-critical types of comments to all people who've become really close to her - the kids, her family. They all recognize it as one of her traits.
I've never had a problem with quick, witty comebacks. In fact, that's one thing I've always been really good at. But, when all the red flags were raised about a possible A, plus all the spewing that seemingly came out of nowhere, I was thrown back and not sure how to respond.
Once I got more footing, I did make comebacks, and sometimes mine were unfortunately really nasty as I reacted too quickly rather than just responded with a quiet, confident rebuff - which I am getting better at.
Since this is my W and mother of my children and not just some friend or family member I could more easily distance myself from physically and emotionally, I've struggled on how to deal with these situations.
What I really want are examples of consequences people on this forum have used in similar situations.
Last edited by RVM; 03/10/2009:43 PM.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
I had my second IC session yesterday and it went so-so.
We rehashed our first session, going over the details of our R that have caused me a lot of stress and anxiety over the past year. He mentioned that even though there’s overwhelming amount of red flags to indicate that she is probably having an A, that I should still be open to the possibility that she is not.
I understood what he was saying, but I reiterated that even if that were true, I’ve discovered many lies she’s told and some clear attempts to manipulate, and that she also has said a few times: “we are only (parental) partners” now.
I haven’t told my W that I’ve started seeing an IC yet, but I did mention to her several months ago that I probably would. IC recommended that I casually let her know that I am to plant a seed in her mind. i.e. W is probably happy that I have distanced myself from her so she can carry on with her behaviors unimpeded. But, if she's made aware that I’m in IC, it may be a small disruption, as she'd wonder what I'm talking about.
I don’t think it will have any affect on her. She's just so uninterested in me right now. She’ll probably just spew some nonsense like: “I hope you don’t talk about me” or “you probably should, you have a lot of issues.”
What do others think here on how to let her know? She’s never been in C, and when I brought up MC months ago, she wasn’t excited about.
I’ll have to let her know anyway, just curious how I drop it in a conversation.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
So, when my kids talk back to my W, my W almost always drops in the, "you are disrepecting me" line or other comments about how to treat people.
While I absolutely agree with the message she's sending, it makes my blood boil hearing her say that. I've almost had to remove myself from the room to stop me from calling her out on her hypocrisy.
At some point down the road, she will have to atone for what she's done to this family and will have to answer some tough questions from my 2 Ds.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
I haven’t told my W that I’ve started seeing an IC yet, but I did mention to her several months ago that I probably would. IC recommended that I casually let her know that I am to plant a seed in her mind. i.e. W is probably happy that I have distanced myself from her so she can carry on with her behaviors unimpeded. But, if she's made aware that I’m in IC, it may be a small disruption, as she'd wonder what I'm talking about.
I don’t think it will have any affect on her. She's just so uninterested in me right now. She’ll probably just spew some nonsense like: “I hope you don’t talk about me” or “you probably should, you have a lot of issues.”
What do others think here on how to let her know? She’s never been in C, and when I brought up MC months ago, she wasn’t excited about.
I’ll have to let her know anyway, just curious how I drop it in a conversation.
My opinion is to show her a healthier person with your actions, not your words. IF SHE ASKS, then "I am learning some things about myself in IC".
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
So, when my kids talk back to my W, my W almost always drops in the, "you are disrepecting me" line or other comments about how to treat people.
While I absolutely agree with the message she's sending, it makes my blood boil hearing her say that. I've almost had to remove myself from the room to stop me from calling her out on her hypocrisy.
I get this too. So hard to bite the tongue. The brain floods with examples to point out and in the moment it would feel good to do so. Nice work holding back!
H37, W37 D4, S2 ILYBNILWY 9/19 BD 9/19 EA discovered 10/19 Currently in limbo, no D or S process initiated
I haven’t told my W that I’ve started seeing an IC yet, but I did mention to her several months ago that I probably would. IC recommended that I casually let her know that I am to plant a seed in her mind. i.e. W is probably happy that I have distanced myself from her so she can carry on with her behaviors unimpeded. But, if she's made aware that I’m in IC, it may be a small disruption, as she'd wonder what I'm talking about.
I don’t think it will have any affect on her. She's just so uninterested in me right now. She’ll probably just spew some nonsense like: “I hope you don’t talk about me” or “you probably should, you have a lot of issues.”
What do others think here on how to let her know? She’s never been in C, and when I brought up MC months ago, she wasn’t excited about.
I’ll have to let her know anyway, just curious how I drop it in a conversation.
RVM ~ I sense that you are hoping to get some sort of a reaction from your W.
DB principle: Don't do anything hoping for an outcome or reaction from your W. That is a desire to control your situation.
In that spirit, how about, "Hi W, just wanted to let you know I started seeing an IC" and then leave the room. If she reacts, think, "hmmm that's curious, I guess I'll go on about the rest of my day now"
I’m just curious as to why you guys are afraid to say anything?
Sorry to hijack here RVM. LH, I can't see a positive outcome of doing so. Maaaybe if used sparingly. I did once last week and W apologized. Other times it leads to defense, blaming, stonewalling, etc.
H37, W37 D4, S2 ILYBNILWY 9/19 BD 9/19 EA discovered 10/19 Currently in limbo, no D or S process initiated
[quote=LH19]I’m just curious as to why you guys are afraid to say anything?
No, I'm not afraid either. I have, in private called her out on how she has disrepected me and our family. It was one of our arguments when I told her why I would not be going on a long wknd trip with the family, which seemed like another cake eating opportunity for her. It put her in almost complete stonewalling mode afterwards. I just don't openly talk with her anymore unless she starts a conversation.
But, I have hesitated on my actions (i.e. asking her to move out or moving all of her crap out of the MBR) because I still don't have official proof of an A.
Last edited by RVM; 03/12/2007:06 PM.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
RVM ~ I sense that you are hoping to get some sort of a reaction from your W.
DB principle: Don't do anything hoping for an outcome or reaction from your W. That is a desire to control your situation.
In that spirit, how about, "Hi W, just wanted to let you know I started seeing an IC" and then leave the room. If she reacts, think, "hmmm that's curious, I guess I'll go on about the rest of my day now"
I'm not intending to get a reaction at all from my W. I'm not even sure if she needs to know that I'm in IC. That's why I posted that topic in this thread - for advice on if I should mention it and how to just casually do it.
My C told me to tell her, and I argued a bit with him b/c I said I'm done having R talks and this might just instigate one. I just want to focus on me and what he can do to help me be a better person for myself and my kids.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
You see thats where true detachment comes into play. You don’t care that all that $hit happens because your a rock and the waves crashing down don’t effect you. You are communicating to her that you won’t be talked to in that manner. She won’t show it but she’ll respect the $hit out of you.
IC recommended that I casually let her know that I am to plant a seed in her mind.
OK well then it seems your IC is trying to get a reaction out of your W.
I think you have to decide whether or not YOU want to tell her (regardless of how she takes it). Just don't tell her because you want to show her you are working on yourself - that's not a good reason.
IC recommended that I casually let her know that I am to plant a seed in her mind.
OK well then it seems your IC is trying to get a reaction out of your W.
I think you have to decide whether or not YOU want to tell her (regardless of how she takes it). Just don't tell her because you want to show her you are working on yourself - that's not a good reason.
Completely agree. I only plan to casually mention it if there ever is a reason to in a conversation.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
No, not at all. And, this only started when she became wayward. It's not a daily occurrence. My W also has had a history of making these judgy/bossy/petty-critical types of comments to all people who've become really close to her - the kids, her family. They all recognize it as one of her traits.
Unfortunately, it can get worse. Maybe she tends to be pessimistic, and she doesn't really try to absorb that which would give her a more positive attitude. IMHO, resentment/bitterness feeds the negative attitude. (If she suffers from depression then that just adds to it.) That is probably why you saw it becoming more obvious when she became wayward. I believe getting all that negative attitude out of her heart/mind, is one of the hardest jobs the WW faces when she reconciles with her H. If she's authentic in wanting to do the work, then she must have surgery on that rotten attitude. It's not easy, b/c her negative mental attitude produces verbal disrespect, as well as overtly disrespecting her H. In other words, it turns into her common every day behavior pattern, and the longer she is allowed to get away with that type of behavior, the more she'll produce it.
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I've never had a problem with quick, witty comebacks. In fact, that's one thing I've always been really good at.
Okay, great. Just one thing I want to point out here. When I speak about a quick comeback.......I'm not talking about witty comebacks. Separate funny playing from put-downs, jabs, etc. It's not helpful, or right, for the WW to make a snide remark and if you call her out about it.......she claims she was just joking. You have to distinguish between what is acceptable when verbally joking/playing..........and where to draw the line. I've seen couples start out smack talking each other.......and eventually, one is going to go too far. That is a behavior that should cease immediately, when you have a WW. I mean, the H needs to stop his funny jabs or bantering. You have a WW who is disrespecting you, so nothing is funny about it, and she can't be given slack. Since it feels natural for you to respond with something witty........you may need to be extra careful. FWIW, I think you were referring to when she's not saying something disrespectful. Still, I urge you to not engage in smack talk.........b/c that is an invitation for verbal disrespect, and what can you say if she claims it wasn't serious? It's about drawing lines, and respecting those lines.
While talking about bantering, how do the two of you interact around your couple friends, relatives, or when you are out in public? Let's say the two of you are attending a cook-out and there are several people there. Do the two of you banter with each other there? I mean, you see it as all being good fun, right? At whose expense? Does it ever hit below the belt? Do you ever feel as if she tries to make you the butt of her jokes......then you have to one up? This is important, so I hope you will answer.
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But, when all the red flags were raised about a possible A, plus all the spewing that seemingly came out of nowhere, I was thrown back and not sure how to respond.
For sure, you don't respond the same way you would do if she wasn't behaving suspiciously or saying something snide. If you've already told her you aren't going to tolerate being spoken to in that manner, then you need to practice various scenarios, and how you would respond. When I say practice, I mean you get somewhere nobody else will be able to observe, and if there is a mirror......even better. You know some of her snide remarks directed at you, so practice how you would call her out on it. I don't think you should call her out in front of anyone. As soon as you are alone with her after the offense, you tell her she showed disrespect. You speak calmly, slowly, and seriously. You don't threaten or give an ultimatum. (Boundaries are not ultimatums.) Be sure you are standing and your body language reflects strength & confidence. This has been an on-going behavior, and you want it stopped. If she apologizes, sincerely, (not one of those mad, sulky apologies, or where she tries to make it your fault), then you can accept her apology, but it doesn't change your stand. Don't accidentally say, "Oh, that's okay".
I don't recommend waiting to the end of a long, stressful day to approach her. Don't wait until bedtime or late at night. You try to start another conversation and ease in the part about disrespect. You don't want her distracted about why you called her out. So, as soon as she apologizes, or not, you need to leave the room to do something else. The most important thing is not her apology, it's her action (stopping the offensive).
I think there are some examples on the boundaries link that might be helpful. Look for the poster named Coach.
Let's talk about her spewing. Is she spewing about you to you? Is she spewing about the kids, in front of the kids? Give me a little more information here. If she is not cussing out her H, screaming to the top of her lungs........then, sure, I could see him calmly listening......even validating her feelings, as long he understands what validation is and what it isn't. I think most women have times they need to vent about their day or a particular situation. Personally, I'm not what you would consider-----passive. So, when I am venting, I usually show a lot of---passion. However, I don't swear, threaten, resort to name calling, throw things, yell/scream, or any of that type of behavior. Listening to your W vent her frustration, is not an excuse for you to put up with her ugly treatment. Know the difference? She can vent without getting angry out of control, etc.
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Since this is my W and mother of my children and not just some friend or family member I could more easily distance myself from physically and emotionally, I've struggled on how to deal with these situations.
Okay, I see a lot of H's who have NGS want to just walk away whenever his WW is obviously disrespecting him in front of his kids or others. That's how nice-guys deal with bad behavior. If a discussion doesn't work, their next step is to walk away. Sometimes, that is the only thing you can do....at the moment. Let's break this down and maybe clarify.
(1) Don't confuse the issue of respect with the subject of detaching. We aren't talking about detaching here.
(2) The appropriate action is to disengage from the WW, who is out of control, or trying to fight you. The goal is to prevent a physical altercation, a loud verbal fight, and scaring the kids to death. You don't want the cops called. We have seen a couple wayward wife cases where the WW called the cops on her H, with bogus allegations, and the cops arrested the H in those particular cases. If it is a case of she said----he said, I think they take the woman's word over the man's, if there are no witnesses. Now, my question to you......is this the type of situation you were referring to when you said walk away?
(3) When the issue is less about avoiding a fight, and more about addressing the WW's obvious disrespect, the goal should be to command (not demand) respect under his own roof, and to teach his children to be respectful. If they see mom showing disrespect for daddy, then they will do it, too. Before there is another incident, he can calmly approach his WW about how her disrespectful comments (and/or behavior) make him feel. If she apologizes and says she will try to be more respectful, the H can respond by saying thanks, and end it. However, if it happens the second time, then he needs to firmly inform her that he will not tolerate disrespect in front of his children (or other people). By the third offense, he should be prepared to enforce an effective boundary.
You said you wanted examples of consequences. It's not that simple to give a blanket answer. We need YOU to give us some examples of things she says, or something she does that is a direct show of a lack of respect. Then, we can weigh in with our ideas, suggestions, or experiences in how to handle it. OK?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
When I speak about a quick comeback.......I'm not talking about witty comebacks. Separate funny playing from put-downs, jabs, etc. It's not helpful, or right, for the WW to make a snide remark and if you call her out about it.......she claims she was just joking. You have to distinguish between what is acceptable when verbally joking/playing..........and where to draw the line. I've seen couples start out smack talking each other.......and eventually, one is going to go too far. That is a behavior that should cease immediately, when you have a WW. I mean, the H needs to stop his funny jabs or bantering. You have a WW who is disrespecting you, so nothing is funny about it, and she can't be given slack. Since it feels natural for you to respond with something witty........you may need to be extra careful. FWIW, I think you were referring to when she's not saying something disrespectful. Still, I urge you to not engage in smack talk.........b/c that is an invitation for verbal disrespect, and what can you say if she claims it wasn't serious? It's about drawing lines, and respecting those lines.
While talking about bantering, how do the two of you interact around your couple friends, relatives, or when you are out in public? Let's say the two of you are attending a cook-out and there are several people there. Do the two of you banter with each other there? I mean, you see it as all being good fun, right? At whose expense? Does it ever hit below the belt? Do you ever feel as if she tries to make you the butt of her jokes......then you have to one up? This is important, so I hope you will answer.
Since the BD, I’ve only made witty, jokey comebacks when we are both clearly joking. However, in those early months post-BD, when she would make some kind of unprovoked snide remark or slightly under her breath personal attack, I would respond with a biting comeback and sometimes my comebacks were nasty. Once I started reading about WWS, coming to this forum, etc I changed that tactic and stifled (for the most part), some of my nasty comebacks. Occasionally, I’ll make mistakes and get drawn in.
I also don’t always just let her get away with her under the breath comments. When I’m in a good mindset, I can just quietly and confidently squash it. And, sometimes in her presence – when she’s acting smug or arrogant, I’m like a frayed live wire and just try to physically get out of her sight so I don’t make a really nasty comment or call her out on everything she’s done. It’s just I don’t know when she’ll do this, and it will sometimes catch me off my guard and I emotionally react rather than stoically respond.
As far as interacting together around others – we are generally respectful and occasionally act as if everything’s normal. It does make me seethe under the surface at times. Mostly, because it just illustrates how good she is at lying and leading a double-life. She’ll occasionally make a personal jab at me in front of others, which prior to BD, I might have laughed off more and not taken it seriously. But, since BD and flags being raised, it’s been a bit more of a challenge to accept these jabs from someone who has clearly disrespected our M in the worst possible way.
The one thing that has increased from her is her possessiveness she displays in front of others with me in earshot: i.e. calling our kids – “her kids” or our house “her house” etc. I’ve called her out on this a few times. But, it still comes out occasionally.
Originally Posted by sandi2
For sure, you don't respond the same way you would do if she wasn't behaving suspiciously or saying something snide. If you've already told her you aren't going to tolerate being spoken to in that manner, then you need to practice various scenarios, and how you would respond. When I say practice, I mean you get somewhere nobody else will be able to observe, and if there is a mirror......even better.
You know some of her snide remarks directed at you, so practice how you would call her out on it. I don't think you should call her out in front of anyone. As soon as you are alone with her after the offense, you tell her she showed disrespect. You speak calmly, slowly, and seriously. You don't threaten or give an ultimatum. (Boundaries are not ultimatums.) Be sure you are standing and your body language reflects strength & confidence.
This has been an on-going behavior, and you want it stopped. If she apologizes, sincerely, (not one of those mad, sulky apologies, or where she tries to make it your fault), then you can accept her apology, but it doesn't change your stand. Don't accidentally say, "Oh, that's okay".
I’ll try this out.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Let's talk about her spewing. Is she spewing about you to you? Is she spewing about the kids, in front of the kids? Give me a little more information here. If she is not cussing out her H, screaming to the top of her lungs........then, sure, I could see him calmly listening......even validating her feelings, as long he understands what validation is and what it isn't. I think most women have times they need to vent about their day or a particular situation. Personally, I'm not what you would consider-----passive. So, when I am venting, I usually show a lot of---passion.
However, I don't swear, threaten, resort to name calling, throw things, yell/scream, or any of that type of behavior. Listening to your W vent her frustration, is not an excuse for you to put up with her ugly treatment. Know the difference? She can vent without getting angry out of control, etc.
Her outright spewing at me has quieted down recently. She doesn’t yell at me. But, it was really bad in early months post-BD as I was super emotional and accusatory and argumentative with her.
Now, her nastiness is mostly under her breath, snide remarks about me or how I do things – either directly at me or within earshot of me to others. Or she’ll just stonewall me. She’s always been OCD about how things are done around the house or things involving the kids. But, they’ve become magnified and made more as personal attacks of me since BD.
Pre-BD, I had no problem arguing with her about these things as I never appreciated someone watching over my shoulder as I’m loading the effing dishwasher or taking out the garbage too soon (“there’s still a little space in there, don’t it out yet”). Pre-BD, I would still do it 90% of the time my way.
Early days, post-BD, I did EVERYTHING her way. And, now, I’m almost 100% back to my way again. But, it’s the snide comments that I haven’t had a good strategy for stifling as my emotions will occasionally run hot now because of our sitch. It has become a million times more difficult to accept petty criticisms from someone who may be cheating on you, than someone who is commited to you.
Post-BD, her spewing at the kids when they misbehave has gotten much worse too. I’ve heard her calling them “brats”, “acting like jerks”, or telling them “they are worst behaved people she’s ever met.” She is a yeller too. And, a nasty yeller at that. And, it has gotten worse when it comes out.
I did confront her after a recent episode where the kids were talking back to her, she blew up at them, and stormed out of the room. Both of the girls were crying and told me “she is so mean to us”, “she hates us”, etc. I went to our MBR and without any emotion told her how bad their reaction was and asked her to go talk to them separately and explain why she was so upset. I didn’t want the kids going to bed without a resolution. She accepted my concern and later did so.
The weird thing is, when she’s not yelling at them, she is so “schmoopy-schmoopy” with them. Like telling them in a weird tone and facial expression how much she loves them and showering them with hugs. This is a daily occurrence now. It’s very awkward for me to witness, but I guess that’s part of her WWS script now. She must have some guilt about what’s happened to our F.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Okay, I see a lot of H's who have NGS want to just walk away whenever his WW is obviously disrespecting him in front of his kids or others. That's how nice-guys deal with bad behavior. If a discussion doesn't work, their next step is to walk away. Sometimes, that is the only thing you can do....at the moment. Let's break this down and maybe clarify.
(1) Don't confuse the issue of respect with the subject of detaching. We aren't talking about detaching here.
(2) The appropriate action is to disengage from the WW, who is out of control, or trying to fight you. The goal is to prevent a physical altercation, a loud verbal fight, and scaring the kids to death. You don't want the cops called. We have seen a couple wayward wife cases where the WW called the cops on her H, with bogus allegations, and the cops arrested the H in those particular cases. If it is a case of she said----he said, I think they take the woman's word over the man's, if there are no witnesses. Now, my question to you......is this the type of situation you were referring to when you said walk away?
(3) When the issue is less about avoiding a fight, and more about addressing the WW's obvious disrespect, the goal should be to command (not demand) respect under his own roof, and to teach his children to be respectful. If they see mom showing disrespect for daddy, then they will do it, too. Before there is another incident, he can calmly approach his WW about how her disrespectful comments (and/or behavior) make him feel. If she apologizes and says she will try to be more respectful, the H can respond by saying thanks, and end it. However, if it happens the second time, then he needs to firmly inform her that he will not tolerate disrespect in front of his children (or other people). By the third offense, he should be prepared to enforce an effective boundary.
Yes, this is the situation I was referring to when I will just walk away. I realize it isn’t necessarily a long term effective strategy, and based on her expressions I can picture her smugly giggling to herself when I walk away.
I don’t always do it, but I am trying to when she touches a nerve. I’ve gotten better about detaching as I look at her differently now, so these situations dosn’t always get me emotional, but sometimes they do. And, rather than react with a nasty putdown comeback, I’m working on removing myself from the situation and responding to her in a detached manner later.
Last edited by RVM; 03/13/2005:16 PM.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
However, in those early months post-BD, when she would make some kind of unprovoked snide remark or slightly under her breath personal attack, I would respond with a biting comeback and sometimes my comebacks were nasty. Once I started reading about WWS, coming to this forum, etc I changed that tactic and stifled (for the most part), some of my nasty comebacks. Occasionally, I’ll make mistakes and get drawn in.
You have to emotionally detach from the drama in that moment, in order for you to calmly handle the real issue at hand.....which is her lack of respect. How are you going to address her lack of respect if you are acting just as badly? You have this WW who operates strictly from her emotions, so if she disrespects you, are you going to operate from your emotions, too? That's pretty much going to guarantee digging the marriage grave deeper. Emotions are not designed to think. Google defines emotions as a natural instinctive state of mind deriving from one's circumstances, mood, or relationships with others. Emotions are designed to feel……... not think. As you've pointed out, when you have a good mindset, you feel confident, which goes to show how important it is to maintain a healthy, balanced mental attitude.
So, how do you keep your emotions under control, when your W says/acts disrespectful? Practice! Remind yourself emotions can’t think. You mentally shift gears, so you can think properly and have discernment. Look at it as putting on your adult hat, b/c she is behaving like a rude, disrespectful, mouthy, rebellious teenager. If you are going to be the adult in the situation, then you cannot react with similar behavior seen in her. You have to put your emotions in check, so you can draw from the logical side of your brain. In order to be respected, you have to conduct yourself in a respectful manner.
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I also don’t always just let her get away with her under the breath comments. When I’m in a good mindset, I can just quietly and confidently squash it. And, sometimes in her presence – when she’s acting smug or arrogant, I’m like a frayed live wire and just try to physically get out of her sight so I don’t make a really nasty comment or call her out on everything she’s done. It’s just I don’t know when she’ll do this, and it will sometimes catch me off my guard and I emotionally react rather than stoically respond.
So, one time you are feeling like a confident man, and "squash it", while another time you aren't feeling like a confident man, which leaves you vulnerable. Know why? B/c when you are vulnerable, the format is set for your emotions to jump in to respond/react. Every day you have to have to practice with whatever happens in your surroundings. You are vulnerable when you don’t feel confident and in charge of yourself. That’s what you work on. Who is responsible for your emotions? YOU! Who controls your emotions? YOU!
You never know when she's going to act smug or arrogant and it catches you off guard? Okay………….let’s try this. By the power invested in me as a former WW, I now declare you on guard, as long as you both shall live.
Seriously, nobody gets "to know" beforehand, and that's why we tell LBH's they need to work on themselves. Every day you work on being a confident man. You can't feel great 100% of the time, but you can learn how to use your logical thinking, and not run in the opposite direction b/c your emotions are overwhelming. She has a WW mindset, so know that she's going to continue this behavior until she learns it isn't worth the consequences. You've been warned.
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As far as interacting together around others – we are generally respectful and occasionally act as if everything’s normal. It does make me seethe under the surface at times. Mostly, because it just illustrates how good she is at lying and leading a double-life. The one thing that has increased from her is her possessiveness she displays in front of others with me in earshot: i.e. calling our kids – “her kids” or our house “her house” etc.
I could be missing how you mean the second part ^^^^^^^^^. Are you sure you aren't being a bit over-sensitive? It’s understandable that you are sensitive to most everything she says or does. You take it personally. IMHO, you need some discernment before you can set effective boundaries. You need to understand how a wife shows her H disrespect, and we can help if you’ll continue giving us examples. FWIW, when I'm talking with other women, I say "my kids" and "my house", but it is not to show possessiveness. Are you suggesting she emphasizes “my” or repeats several times, while looking side-eyed at you? Does she brag to your friends (men & women) to make you look bad? IDK, I hope you'll explain.
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Her outright spewing at me has quieted down recently. She doesn’t yell at me. But, it was really bad in early months post-BD as I was super emotional and accusatory and argumentative with her.
I don't know what she said in her spewing, but yelling is disrespectful. The above quote is a perfect example where both people are reacting from negative emotions. Based on what I read from nice-guy H's, they experience a lot of fear after the bomb drops. Just between you and me, they all do, but the other guys don't let their WW see their fear. It's important that she doesn't sense you are intimated, threatened, scared, etc. Your job is to be the head of your family. Who wants a husband/father to lead & protect them if he's crying or afraid? I'm not saying you can never feel those things, but don't show it in front of the troops. They need to feel confident that their General is up for the job.
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Early days, post-BD, I did EVERYTHING her way. And, now, I’m almost 100% back to my way again. But, it’s the snide comments that I haven’t had a good strategy for stifling as my emotions will occasionally run hot now because of our sitch. It has become a million times more difficult to accept petty criticisms from someone who may be cheating on you, than someone who is commited to you.
I'm going to pick up here in the next post, since this one is so long.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Early days, post-BD, I did EVERYTHING her way. And, now, I’m almost 100% back to my way again.
What do you mean "her way" and "your way"?
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It has become a million times more difficult to accept petty criticisms from someone who may be cheating on you, than someone who is commited to you.
You make a valid point. It won't be easy, for the fact you suspect she's cheating, and for the fact, you've let her get away with a certain amount of snide remarks under her breath, etc., for a while. Now, your nerves are jumping over every thing said......which works against your ability to determine fairly if she's out of line. Let me ask you, does she criticize you in front of others? Is it more like in everyday interaction, like she's frustrated you don't remember to carry the trash out? It's one thing for her to feel frustration over having to remind/ask you every time. It's quite another if she uses words that are condescending, yelling, cursing, etc. If she's doing that.......then, IMHO, she crosses the line of respect. I mean, I could write forever on this subject and may not hit exactly what you need. Sometimes, a wife can develop unattractive habitual behavior, (and H's do, too), where she can't tell him to pick up his clothes without accusing him of being dim-witted, or worse. If he just brushes it off, then the next time she's going to speak harsher. First thing he knows, she's screaming to the top of her lungs, threatening, cursing, etc. It goes from "petty" to hard core. If the MR is on the rocks, and especially if he suspects her of cheating, then his antenna is on high alert.
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Post-BD, her spewing at the kids when they misbehave has gotten much worse too. I’ve heard her calling them “brats”, “acting like jerks”, or telling them “they are worst behaved people she’s ever met.” She is a yeller too. And, a nasty yeller at that. And, it has gotten worse when it comes out.
Well, it may not be as bad in real life as it sounds on paper, but if it is.........that is verbal abuse. Maybe she needs better parenting and coping skills, but look at the affect it has on the kids. She operates on emotions with everyone, no exceptions. Everything is about her. Maybe she was treated the same way when she was growing up. Here's the thing. As the protector, it's your responsibility to protect those little girls from a mother (or anyone else) who is yelling, name calling, and verbally bashing them. Parents should present a united front, but if she has a wayward mindset, she might not be so cooperative.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I'm the OP of this thread, but cannot recall my login info and password resets have been fruitless. It has been months since I was last active here, so I had to create a new profile.
If the mods could assist, that would be great. Otherwise, I'll create a new thread to continue this.
I'm the OP of this thread, but cannot recall my login info and password resets have been fruitless. It has been months since I was last active here, so I had to create a new profile.
If the mods could assist, that would be great. Otherwise, I'll create a new thread to continue this.
We have no power to do anything about username and passwords. If you can not reset then use this username to continue this thread here until 100 posts
It’s been several months since I posted here. And, only recently really got back into reading this forum. I’m glad I did though. Because, I think I’ve let my guard down a bit too much. I chalk a lot of that up to the quarantine.
So, I’ve been in this limbo state since the quasi-BD occurred in Sept 19. There has been no reconciliation of our R. At best, there’s been a softening of the huge disconnect we’ve had. But, that’s fleeting. And, there’s been no affection of any kind. I think the last time we even had a peck of a kiss was on New Year’s Eve. There’s been no talks of our MR. It’s now been almost 10 months of this situation – though, I started to have some serious concerns about my wife’s behavior several months before that.
Other than suspicious behavior and suspicious phone records, I still don’t have concrete proof of her A. But, I’d be a fool to believe one hadn’t or isn’t currently happening. The quarantine may have stifled the PA a bit. But, a cheater will find a way to get their fix. And, I’m guessing the odd trips to the grocery store a day after a grocery store trip was already made; or the extra-long early morning walks are opportunities to meet with OM.
The quarantine has made it a challenge to be a ghost. With my 2 D’s remote learnin, and both of us working from home, we’re around each other a lot. Most of it has been fine – cordial. Though we rarely talk, and if we do, it is very basic and logistical. As before, once the girls go to bed, we go to separate areas of the house. We are still sharing a bed, but there’s not even any good-nights or good-mornings anymore. She’s usually asleep in bed an hour before I go to bed. And, she usually gets up at least 30 min before I do.
But, I have been GAL’ing as best as one can do during the quarantine. I’ve done a million home improvement projects, tons of gardening/landscaping projects, and spending as much time as possible with my D’s. I've also continued taking guitar lessons. Absolutely loving that. I've been working out like a madman at home. And, my attitude in general is much more positive.
And, I do not pursue my W at all. I never initiate conversations unless it’s something logistical. I will crack a joke. But, I honestly try to avoid her as much as possible. My W has softened her communications with me a bit more. By softening – I mean she doesn’t lead conversations with spewing anymore. I don’t know if I just attribute this to the quarantine situation we’re in or what. I try not to read much into it. But, I have made mistakes when she’s been making pleasant, fun conversations with me and I’ll get too comfortable and joke around with her. And, then BAM, within an instant, she’ll make some unprovoked insult. And, I have to mentally reset.
I am getting to the point where I really don’t like her anymore though. I feel like I’m able to step outside of myself more often and just see how she’s behaved, and her outright arrogance. It is difficult to now imagine a future with this person.
I’ll write more as I have time. But, I would like some advice. We have a vacation planned to her family’s place by a lake this Saturday for a week. This is a place that many members of her extended family share for visits. We agreed on this earlier this year. I was reluctant to agree with our situation, but did so for the kids. And, we generally get along once we’re away from our home life.
Anyway, my W and I were having a really nice convo rehashing previous trips to this place. And, out of the blue, she mentioned that one of the hiking trail guide books was missing from the house. And, she said that I took it years ago and never returned it. And, I should put it back when we go back. I was flabbergasted at this accusation. I never took anything from this place. This was the first time I’ve ever heard of this. I immediately said (in a nice tone), “no, I never took that. I’ve never taken anything from the house.” She was adamant that I did in an accusatory tone. I held my stance. And, the convo ended and we just went on as normal.
It really baffled me at the time. I’ve always respected personal property. I later chalked it up to spewing. But, it really pissed me off because one of my D’s heard the whole conversation. I don’t want to bring it up with my W again because it’s pointless. I’ll hold my stance if she or anyone else does.
But, I also really don’t want to drive in the car with her on this trip. I’m seriously considering taking my own car and packing up some things: bikes, etc, that wouldn’t fit in our other car. I can easily diffuse the idea with kids with the extra items I want to bring. Just curious what people may think here.
Does this look too passive-aggressive, even though once that conversation ended it was never discussed again?
So, I decided last night that I didn’t want to deal with the potential drama of taking a separate car, so I travelled with my W and D’s in her car. It was fine, we were cordial for the long ride. I kept it light and simple.
So we get to the house and her parents arrive as well. And, as she does in these situations, my W changes her mask. She’s now acting mostly like my W again in front of her parents. She’s even been semi-flirtatious. I forgot what this felt like. But, I also don’t make much of it. I know what mask she’ll put back on as soon as we are back home. I plan to keep our interactions light. I’m making a lot of lighthearted jokes and having fun. I won’t pursue. And, I will keep my focus on my kids.
Oh, and that trail guide book that I supposedly took years ago is here, on the bookshelf, in the exact location where one would expect it to be. I don’t know if my W saw it, or even looked for that matter. Hell, she might not even remember her spewing at me about it just a few days ago. It wouldn’t be the first time she spewed and forgot about it almost immediately.
I don’t plan to even bring it up either. There’s no point. She wouldn’t apologize anyway. If she does mention it, I’ll just stoically acknowledge what she said at the time, but won’t ask for apology or anything.
Anyway, my W and I were having a really nice convo rehashing previous trips to this place. And, out of the blue, she mentioned that one of the hiking trail guide books was missing from the house. And, she said that I took it years ago and never returned it. And, I should put it back when we go back. I was flabbergasted at this accusation.. “No, I never took that. I’ve never taken anything from the house.” She was adamant that I did.. I held my stance. And, the convo ended and we just went on as normal.
You can hold your stance while showing understanding:
You: "Your recollection is that I took the guidebook. My recollection is that I did not." Her: "You did take the guidebook!!" You: "I guess we'll have to agree to disagree."
Originally Posted by RVM
It really baffled me at the time. I’ve always respected personal property. I later chalked it up to spewing. But, it really pissed me off because one of my D’s heard the whole conversation. I don’t want to bring it up with my W again because it’s pointless. I’ll hold my stance if she or anyone else does.
It's worth reflecting on why this conversation was so distressing. It's a common conflict. You're modeling to D how she should behave when she disagrees with a friend (right or wrong) about what's happened.
Originally Posted by RVM
Oh, and that trail guide book that I supposedly took years ago is here, on the bookshelf, in the exact location where one would expect it to be.
Cool. One of you was bound to be right.
Originally Posted by RVM
I don’t plan to even bring it up either. There’s no point. She wouldn’t apologize anyway.
I would, not to gloat or be right, of course. "I know you were worried about their guidebook, so I set aside a few minutes to look for it. Good news! I found it on the bookshelf."
Originally Posted by RVM
I still don’t have concrete proof of her A. But, I’d be a fool to believe one hadn’t or isn’t currently happening. The quarantine may have stifled the PA a bit. But, a cheater will find a way to get their fix. And, I’m guessing the odd trips to the grocery store a day after a grocery store trip was already made; or the extra-long early morning walks are opportunities to meet with OM.
You've accused your wife of an affair, and 10 months later you still don't know. Even if it's 90% certain, take your pain of being falsely accused of not returning a book, and now imagine her possible pain of being falsely accused of cheating. Any reason you haven't hired a PI by now to settle the matter?
Any reason you haven't hired a PI by now to settle the matter?
That is being strongly considered now to hopefully get closure on this. I already found many suspicious phone records from well before the BD that confirm who I've long suspected is the OM. But, the early snooping and confronting I did post BD most likely made her hide her tracks even more. I stopped snooping and just focused on improving myself and being a great Dad.
Anyway, I did not bring up the guide book while we were away. The only reason I brought it up here was to vent a bit for myself. There's been many examples of this type of gaslighting over the past year. It just gets to a point where I've found myself in awkward situations where my kids are around and I still make mistakes with not validating well. Stoically replying: "we'll have to agree to disagree" would have been a good way to end that discussion.
Most of the vacation went well. We did a lot of family activities together and we each really just focused our attention on the kids. She did make a lot of unprovoked jabs at me that I ignored for the most part. I'd say we were pretty civil. But, it gets really tiring to have some pleasant family time disrupted by some jabs. It did feel pretty strained whenever others weren't around, and as soon as the kids went to bed, she did too. I didn't pursue at all - did a lot of odd jobs around the house and in downtime would go play my guitar, go for a bike ride, or a solo hike.
Our anniversary is coming up very soon and I'm not sure how to handle it. My D actually reminded us in the car, which made it a bit awkward. I don't plan on doing anything. But, I'm a little worried about the optics since my D will likely talk about our anniv that day.
We had typically gotten each other cards and a traditional gift. Last year, she didn't give me a card, but gave me a present with the tags still on it in a plastic garbage bag. She also didn't reach out to me that day to say happy anniv. I initiated it. This was was completely uncharacteristic of her. She had always been the one to make a big deal about exchanging cards and nicely wrapping the gifts. Alarm bells had already started going off in my head around this time.
M: 40s W: 40s 2 Ds PA suspected Summer 2019 / assumed still ongoing BD: Fall 2019
BTW, you can practice validating others, too, like you did with your little girl.