WAW - is it too late?

[RVM]

So, just wanted to update my sitch.

Not much has changed over the past few weeks. Been GAL'ing, 180ing, and detaching with a little success. It has definitely been a roller coaster ride. I'm up and down on this quite a bit.

A couple of concerns - I think a lot of my efforts have come off as too cold. I'm torn as I still don't have concrete proof of a PA yet, all of the signs are there. I found a lot of older phone records to the person I suspected she is having the PA with. She works at the same company as he does. There are enough calls and the timing of many of them is very concerning. I haven't confronted her with that information yet. And, I don't want to keep snooping as she is aware that I believe she is cheating. I think they may have taken a more underground approach to conceal their relationship. Do I apply Sandi's tough stance on her?

My W continues to follow the WWS script. Lots of argument baiting that I do my best to validate, but have made mistakes and gotten sucked in a few times. She seems to relish on this. It's amazing. And, really awful.

I am at the point where I am seriously considering reaching out to the suspected OMS about the phone record info I do have. Looks like almost 2 years' worth of phone calls. They have 2 kids as well. What is the board's opinion on this tactic?

Several weeks ago she asked me and the kids to go away to visit her family for this weekend. We have done so for several years now. At that time, I told her I'd think about it, but most likely not based on how things have changed. We hadn't been talking much at all and the times we did were just logistical for our kids. She followed up again, and this time I said I am not going. I have other things going on and reiterated that she had essentially fired me as a husband. (i.e. she had cut me off from sex 6 months ago, declared us as "partners", wasn't sure if she wanted a relationship with me anymore, and told me to "go do your own thing", etc) She didn't argue with me too much, but was more upset that the kids might not be happy about it.

The truth is - this might actually be the first time she's ever taken the kids away without me. Whereas, I've done it several times. The kids love going away with me, always have. They don't have that same relationship with her. I just want to make sure I'm making a right decision here and not doing something that is passive-aggressive. I also don't want to back peddle on my decision as I could still go. Part of my rationale for not going is to let her see a possible future reality.

[mtb1981]

I would keep the phone records to myself. Once the WW finds out where you're getting information from, they'll switch things up to keep the A underground...

I've seen mixed views and results of exposing the A to the OMS. I'm sure it probably feels good in the moment, but I feel like it would cause more problems in the long run. WW get mad when you start meddling in their fantasy. Like I said, I've seen cases where it benefits the LBS and cases where it doesn't...

I think you're definitely making the right decision regarding not going on the trip to see her family. I don't think it will affect your kids as much as you think. It will most likely get her wondering what you're up to, and that's good...

[RVM]

So, I picked up the girls from school yesterday and they asked about the weekend trip they've been excited to take. This time I took the opportunity to tell them I wasn't going with them (in a very light hearted, casual tone) this time. They asked why, and I told them I just had personal things to take care of at home, so it'll just be the ladies this time. They were fine with it and made no expressions or comments to indicate any concerns.

Later, I made dinner for the family, and in the middle of dinner, my oldest D told my W that I wasn't going on the trip. My wife looked a little taken back, but quickly replied, "yes, it's just going to be a ladies trip this time." My youngest then said, "aw, I'm going to miss you Daddy." I replied, "I know, I will too. But, you all will have a great time. Plus, I don't think you've ever gone away with just Mommy before, so it'll be a new experience"

Don't think my W appreciated that comment much as she made no comment and was just stoic. We quickly moved on to another conversation. Was that comment the wrong thing to add? Or was that a NGS comment?

Anyway, later on in the evening when the girls were occupied in other rooms by themselves, and I was reading a book, my W comes up to me and says, "so, how did you explain why you weren't going away with us this weekend?"

I replied, "just told them I had personal stuff to work on at home and also actually had to go to work they day they were coming back." (I stifled my gut reaction to say, "the truth!")

She looked a bit upset, and said "OK. I just want to make sure I have the same explanation if they ask again." Then, she left the room. And, I went back to reading my book.

After the girls went to bed, I left for the gym (as I have been doing almost every night of the week now. I used to go in the morning.)

Even though I would have a good time on the trip, it felt like a small victory for my self-esteem to not cave in and go on the trip with them.

I do feel like I'm trapped in some sort of Cold War stand-off right now, and that she is trying to wear me down so I file for D so she doesn't have to. I guess that's a standard MO of WS.

[AnotherStander]

I'm torn as I still don't have concrete proof of a PA yet, all of the signs are there. I found a lot of older phone records to the person I suspected she is having the PA with. She works at the same company as he does. There are enough calls and the timing of many of them is very concerning. I haven't confronted her with that information yet. And, I don't want to keep snooping as she is aware that I believe she is cheating. I think they may have taken a more underground approach to conceal their relationship. Do I apply Sandi's tough stance on her?

If you need to know then hire a PI. The snooping will absolutely kill you. You'll gather all this info that seems suspicious, but still allows her some plausible deniability. It'll just confuse and frustrate you. And rest assured, no matter how strong the evidence she will deny, deny, deny. She will gaslight you to the point that you don't know what to believe yourself. This is the part where a lot of LBS's will say "oh but he doesn't know my wife like I do, she's not like that." You knew who she WAS, not who she IS right now. WE know who she is. So hire a PI, find out once and for all and be done with it and move forward. If you do find out she's having an A and decide to confront her, then just confront her and say you know and leave it at that. Just say "I know what you're doing and find is extremely disrespectful and will not tolerate it." Then when she denies (which she will) then just look her in the eye, say "we both know that's not true" and leave the room. The key is to do it with as few words as possible. The more you talk the more she will argue/ fight/ lie/ gaslight.

I am at the point where I am seriously considering reaching out to the suspected OMS about the phone record info I do have. Looks like almost 2 years' worth of phone calls. They have 2 kids as well. What is the board's opinion on this tactic?

Don't confront OM. If you have absolute evidence of a PA such as photos of them kissing, or their cars in a hotel parking lot or something, then my opinion is you send it anonymously to his W. She deserves to know, but there is no need to expose yourself to any drama as a result of it. Just send it to her and let her decide what to do with the information.

Part of my rationale for not going is to let her see a possible future reality.

I think it's the right choice not to go, but if you think it will be a "wakeup call" for her you are wrong about that.

Was that comment the wrong thing to add? Or was that a NGS comment?

No I think it was a great response. It was neutral and not accusatory towards W.

I do feel like I'm trapped in some sort of Cold War stand-off right now, and that she is trying to wear me down so I file for D so she doesn't have to. I guess that's a standard MO of WS.

Could be. Or she may just be unsure right now. When the LBS removes all pressure, often the WAS will put D (and sometimes S) on the back burner indefinitely.

[RVM]

Just say "I know what you're doing and find is extremely disrespectful and will not tolerate it." Then when she denies (which she will) then just look her in the eye, say "we both know that's not true" and leave the room. The key is to do it with as few words as possible. The more you talk the more she will argue/ fight/ lie/ gaslight.

Mistake or not, I've actually already done this. It took her back, she denied, but didn't ever ask questions like "what are you talking about or what do you mean evidence?" She started gaslighting me months ago when I first asked if she might be having an affair. It really turned my world upside down then. I was snooping quite a bit back then (before finding this board.) But, that has died down - the snooping and gaslighting. I never question where she's going, etc. But, I think that initial period of snooping made her go further underground with the A. But, yeah, I have seriously considered hiring a PI just for some personal closure.

Don't confront OM. If you have absolute evidence of a PA such as photos of them kissing, or their cars in a hotel parking lot or something, then my opinion is you send it anonymously to his W. She deserves to know, but there is no need to expose yourself to any drama as a result of it. Just send it to her and let her decide what to do with the information.

This is a possibility.

I think it's the right choice not to go, but if you think it will be a "wakeup call" for her you are wrong about that.

I agree. I don't expect this to change anything. Just a small step for me to not be a doormat. It could also backfire.

[RVM]

Another observation - just about every week my daughters have a group Facetime chat with my W's parents. For many years, my W would be a major part of the chat. But, for the last year or 2, she has really faded and rarely even taken part in these chats, and just has my daughters talk to them. I actually even participate in these quite a bit. I've thought that was really odd behavior for awhile now. And, when they've come to visit in this time period, she really doesn't interact with them too much other than figuring out activities or very superficial things.

Is avoiding her parents just a part of a WS's script?

[SteveLW]

Another observation - just about every week my daughters have a group Facetime chat with my W's parents. For many years, my W would be a major part of the chat. But, for the last year or 2, she has really faded and rarely even taken part in these chats, and just has my daughters talk to them. I actually even participate in these quite a bit. I've thought that was really odd behavior for awhile now. And, when they've come to visit in this time period, she really doesn't interact with them too much other than figuring out activities or very superficial things.

Is avoiding her parents just a part of a WS's script?

Yes.

My W started, right around BD, to really distance herself from my family, and even from mutual friends. I remember that 8 days after BD, some friends of ours invited us over for New Years Eve. My W made an excuse (Not feeling well) literally as we were getting ready to go. It was as if she was preparing for he new life devoid of my family and any friends she felt would be sympathetic to me in our situation.

[sandi2]

After observing her behavior for a few months, I finally had to confront her. (wish I knew about this place beforehand.) She convincingly denied everything, had me cowering with regret for even assuming it, and lovingly made a commitment to work on our relationship. I'm amazed at her poise. She was unflappable.

How could she have poise, and at the same time, have you cowering?

I did all the begging, pleading, etc to work on the relationship. She pushed further away, and really seemed ready to file for divorce. She finally said, "I really don't like you right now. I don't know what I want. I just want to focus on the children." She's never confessed to any EA/PA, but suddenly has stopped mentioning the guy's name.

So, her "lovingly" commitment to work on the MR was nothing more than a pat on the head so you'd settle down and stop being a pest. Why should she confess anything? No confession doesn't automatically mean she's innocent, so I hope you prepare for the worst. Why? B/c her behavior is not exactly that of a trustworthy, honorable wife.

I did all the begging, pleading, etc to work on the relationship. She pushed further away, and really seemed ready to file for divorce. She finally said, "I really don't like you right now. I don't know what I want. I just want to focus on the children."

It is never attractive when a man begs & pleads with his wife. NEVER! If you don't have more respect for yourself, then why should she? May I suggest that your W a sense of entitlement, is spoiled, and takes you for you granted.

She's never confessed to any EA/PA, but suddenly has stopped mentioning the guy's name.

No confession means nothing. She's covering her tracks, b/c you have grown suspicious.

Originally Posted by mtb1981
I think it would be beneficial for you to ramp up the GAL and leave the house in the evenings several times a week. You mentioned that she has been going out for drinks before she comes home. I think you should be ready to leave when she gets there. Go out and do something. Be vague. Tell her there are some things you want to do and leave it at that. Make her wonder what you're doing while she's picking out clothes and rubbing stuff on her face...

Yeah, I've started doing that to a degree. It is a little difficult with the ages of our daughters. We alternate picking them up from school and spend time with them as a family until they go to bed.

It's difficult for whom? Look, your W will have zero problems leaving those girls while she conducts her affair. I understand that you want to spend time with your daughters, but as far as spending time as a family..............you may reach a point that family time will need to be put on hold, until the adults figure out what to do. Some family activities is very much cake eating for a WW. She wants the best of both worlds, and she won't like it when you try to take part of it away. We can talk more about this later.

I did tell her the night before that I may not join her and the girls for a long weekend trip to her family's place next month. Missing something like that would be a first for me. That really threw her back when I said that. What are your thoughts on that? I think the girls may be upset if I didn't go.

The more you pull back, and the less you reveal to her who...what....where about your activities, the more she will try to get into your personal business. She don't want you knowing what she's been up to, but just watch how angry she gets if you don't answer all of her nosy questions.

The kids may be disappointed, but the way I see it is that it's better they have some disappointment now, than years without their parents together. Make sense? Let me warn you that LBH's will try to use their kids (maybe unaware) to stay home, go on family trips, etc. Of course you want to keep things as they've always been, but it doesn't work when your W is wayward. She needs to see (by your actions) that it's not okay for her to treat you this way and expect you to roll over and continue playing the H with NGS. She should experience a drastic change, mostly from you not being interested in her.......not accommodating her.......and not catering to her.

Currently, you are wanting to work on the MR, right? Well, you can't work on it....the way you want to work on it, b/c that would involve her cooperation, and she's not going to sincerely do it while she has another guy in her head. Don't even bother trying to get her to commit, right now. She would only lie, or push to the next step, which is to separate. BTW, don't agree to leave the MBR, or to in-house separation.

Okay, so first, you work on yourself, and you learn how to detach, and learn how to establish and enforce boundaries. You let her deal with consequences, and don't run in to save her. I am hitting only a handful of highlights, b/c there is much more involved. I'm just trying to get you to realize that you can't let fear guide you in the process. As the H, you must be a figure of strength, b/c you've only just begun to see what she is capable of doing. Things will get worse before they get better. You have a lot to read/learn, but you have a good support system here.

I had to type this really fast, so if I have totally confused you, please ask questions.

[RVM]

So, her "lovingly" commitment to work on the MR was nothing more than a pat on the head so you'd settle down and stop being a pest. Why should she confess anything? No confession doesn't automatically mean she's innocent, so I hope you prepare for the worst. Why? B/c her behavior is not exactly that of a trustworthy, honorable wife.

Yeah, it took a few weeks for it to register that she was lying. I was in complete denial back then.

It is never attractive when a man begs & pleads with his wife. NEVER! If you don't have more respect for yourself, then why should she? May I suggest that your W a sense of entitlement, is spoiled, and takes you for you granted.

Agreed. And, I believe her lack of respect for me was the major trigger in her decision to start having an A. She is an extremely ambitious and successful professional, and makes a lot more money than I do.

It's difficult for whom? Look, your W will have zero problems leaving those girls while she conducts her affair. I understand that you want to spend time with your daughters, but as far as spending time as a family..............you may reach a point that family time will need to be put on hold, until the adults figure out what to do. Some family activities is very much cake eating for a WW. She wants the best of both worlds, and she won't like it when you try to take part of it away. We can talk more about this later.

She has taken different steps to conduct her A now that she knows I'm suspicious. She used to do the "I have to work a bit later tonight" or "our work group has a dinner scheduled tonight", etc. But, now I believe she does her meet ups early in the morning, during lunch, or immediatlely after work. Probably has taken days off from work that I don't know about as well.

I am really struggling with how to curtail the cake eating when the kids are involved and we don't have any kind of S or plans for a D. I haven't participated in several things that she's tried to organize for the family and just told her "I have other plans." That usually frustrated her.

The kids may be disappointed, but the way I see it is that it's better they have some disappointment now, than years without their parents together. Make sense? Let me warn you that LBH's will try to use their kids (maybe unaware) to stay home, go on family trips, etc. Of course you want to keep things as they've always been, but it doesn't work when your W is wayward. She needs to see (by your actions) that it's not okay for her to treat you this way and expect you to roll over and continue playing the H with NGS. She should experience a drastic change, mostly from you not being interested in her.......not accommodating her.......and not catering to her.

This is where I need the most help. I'm trying to keep things as normal as possible for the kids, but I'm also maintaining good distance from my W. I no longer show any interest in her. I don't ask her questions and I give very basic responses to anything she asks. Part of me thinks this approach feeds right into what she wants - that eventually I'll just file for D so she doesn't have to be looked on as the one who broke up the family. But, I do see a potential long term benefit in this helping me let her go. I do need to really ramp up some other GAL activities that are not just going to the gym, as that's something I've always done.

There have been a few nights in the past few weeks where I've cleaned up after the kids went to bed and just said "I'm going out." No details offered. And, I come home after 11 pm. Does this look like I'm potentially revenge dating or going to a bar to a WWS? I'm concerned I'm giving the impression that I'm going out drinking. Which I would see as a negative.

Currently, you are wanting to work on the MR, right? Well, you can't work on it....the way you want to work on it, b/c that would involve her cooperation, and she's not going to sincerely do it while she has another guy in her head. Don't even bother trying to get her to commit, right now. She would only lie, or push to the next step, which is to separate. BTW, don't agree to leave the MBR, or to in-house separation.

Yes, I do still want to R. But, as you said, and what I've told her is that I have no intention to be in an open relationship. I won't agree to leave the MBR, or an in-house S. She's also made veiled comments here and there that suggest me moving out. I ignore those.

Okay, so first, you work on yourself, and you learn how to detach, and learn how to establish and enforce boundaries. You let her deal with consequences, and don't run in to save her. I am hitting only a handful of highlights, b/c there is much more involved. I'm just trying to get you to realize that you can't let fear guide you in the process. As the H, you must be a figure of strength, b/c you've only just begun to see what she is capable of doing. Things will get worse before they get better. You have a lot to read/learn, but you have a good support system here.

Yes, agreed, and I've started working on myself a lot since the new year. I'm much more upbeat in general. I am slowly building boundaries. I've been reading a lot of books, reading everything on this site, listening to audiobooks, etc . And, now on my second time through the DR book.

Thanks for your excellent feedback and all of the posting you've done on this site. You've been an invaluable resource here.

[mtb1981]

There have been a few nights in the past few weeks where I've cleaned up after the kids went to bed and just said "I'm going out." No details offered. And, I come home after 11 pm. Does this look like I'm potentially revenge dating or going to a bar to a WWS? I'm concerned I'm giving the impression that I'm going out drinking. Which I would see as a negative.

Let her think whatever she wants. You know what you're doing and that's all that matters. Just continue your GAL activities and keep all info about it vague. You should probably get out of the house every once in a while before the kids go to bed. Right when she gets home, you should head out. I get the impression that there have been many evenings where she has been out after work and left you with everything to do at home. This way, you can focus on you and GAL and she can have a taste of what getting a D and single parenting is like. 2 birds, 1 stone. Who cares what she thinks? Like Sandi said, she wouldn't think twice about doing whatever she wants. It's only fair that you get a break from doing everything too...