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Similar to many of the situations I’ve researched and read on many sites I find myself in the most unwanted club of navigating a H in MLC.

BD was end of August 2019, in which he informed me “I need to flip the tables, I need to move out. We have no kids so there’s nothing to stay for and everything should be easy to divide”. He left for a month within two weeks of BD...then came back to the house. In the span of a very confusing month and a half, I found out about an EA that had been going on since at least April 2019, he bought a motorcycle, was already working out excessively, bought new clothes, new glasses (changes to his appearance), began drinking a lot more than usual, has ALWAYS been a workaholic but dove in even more and has been distant and mildly confrontational BUT then for me the confusing part of all of this in the evenings he will seem to “calm down”, watch tv with me, offer dinner or tea etc...

I have taken the last few months to dive into a lot of the material on this site (the welcome info as well as follow some similar story lines to my own Thank you all so much 😊) Despite doing all of the “typical” wrong things behaviour wise at the beginning I was quick enough to realize that something was really off and began looking right away for what could be happening and began the process of detaching and GAL. Sadly for me, I find myself in a situation where I’m constanlty questioning if this is a MLC because he hasn’t waivered in wanting to S/D...with a major push to sell the house so he can “get out of the basement”.

I guess right this second I’m lost for what to say to him and how to handle his want of creating a S agreement right now along with his need for immediate resolution. (Brought it up again last night after 4 weeks of doing/saying nothing). I understand trying to reason with him is hitting my own head against a wall, but how do I communicate there are other solutions without controlling him or the situation? Or even “go along” with something that is so destructive? If I’m honest with myself, there is also fear there because I’m still emotionally healing and don’t even understand or know how to create an agreement that protects me should this continue to spiral. Am I truly in a position where I have to respect his feelings and agree to head down this path with him? Sorry for the scattered thoughts I feel like where I am really lost is in my communication with him...he is completely silent and it’s thrown me off so badly. Thanks for anything you have to offer.

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Welcome to this board.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)

I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.

This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.

I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289

Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296

Things you should know as the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017#Post2701017

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444

Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741

MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869

The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1

WAS showing you positive signs? WAIT - READ THIS!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2772942#Post2772942

Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.

I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.

Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!

Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.

I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.

Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.

Detach the single most important thing to DO.

Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


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I would never suggest a bluff. It doesn't work. But, I told mine three years ago that he could have a separation agreement. We agreed on terms. He wouldn't sign. Still trying to get that or a divorce. Sometimes when they use it to emotionally distance or hold you at bay without really wanting it. You can't force someone to stay married. If he wants it he'll get it. But, I think there is something to telling them you won't stand in their way.

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HI

Sorry you find yourself here

First I would suggest to get with A Lawyer , just to learn your rights
dont tell him this , just keep it to yourself

Dont agree to any agreements until you get the information
An Attorney can advise you on a free hour consultation what your legally allowed to get (just in case)

As for you,
continue to GAL, stay busy, get counseling, maybe find some new hobby or activity
volunteer, make a new friend, go out ect...

there is not much you can do accept become the best version of you

Your H sounds like a typical MLcer with working out, motorcyle, new clothes
mine did the same


This is a long road and the only way you will know is in time what your H actually does

They talk and many will drag their feet to buy you more time
You can listen and not make any agreements just validate what he is saying

Hang in there
it gets easier


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Thank you both...I can’t believe the quick reply.

Cadet - I will continue to read the links I haven’t read yet.

OwnIt - I completely agree ... I set my goal very early on in this in that I wanted to manage this situation with as much kindness, understanding and truth as I could. So bluffing wouldn’t be a tactic for me...I’m just struggling with how to keep my feelings clear, allowing him to find his path without feeling like I’ve assisted him with the destruction of our marriage.

Before BD he suggested counselling to which we went to 3 sessions before I figured out that he was only going to tick a box to make his effort look good and only still intended on ending the relationship. In many of the readings I’ve seen people talk about their H confusion and how once they start to DB/D the H starts to come back around. I feel like there has been zero reconsideration of ending the relationship on his part. Is there more I can do? How did you figure out what terms needed agreeing to? Splitting of everything? He feels that because we don’t have kids this is super easy and let’s get on with it.

Last edited by job; 01/03/20 09:39 PM. Reason: added spacing between paragraphs for easier reading.
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Thx Peacetoday,

I spoke with a lawyer very early on from a place of pure panic and had an awful experience. They talked at me for over an hour about the advanced legal system after demanding all my info in a shotgun style setting. I was not able to ask any of my questions. I wish I had walked out. I’m so nervous to start that over again but know I need to...

Early on in my process right before BD there was so much confusion surrounding what he wanted and I didn’t know what was going on then so I kept harping on why are you holding me in limbo, over a barrel etc...I deserve a decision. I feel like because of that exchange he’s hyper focused on those words and has made his decision.

I feel like I am without a voice to tell him that I understand so much more now and would have never said those things if I’d only known his struggle. From everything I’ve read it’s too late for these words and he wouldn’t listen anyway. Some people talk about guiding the MLC’r ...how does one do this without sounding controlling?

For some more history (and I’m sure many before have said this) all friends and family are shocked (as well as the counsellor were saw) because we really have a strong loving relationship.

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Kindly, you need to quickly accept that nothing you can do is going to short-circuit this. You can't reason people out of their emotions, or emotionally blackmail them into feeling what they don't.

Any kindness you show, other than giving him the space he asks for is going to feel like pressure and pursuit. The faster you can put on your game face, the better.

I am not saying not to protect yourself, because that is a must. Keep visiting attorneys (most do a free consult) until you find one you like and who is willing to listen to what you want. Right now you are information gathering. Make that clear. That this is on a timeline you don't control and you are trying to find someone who will be there when the time comes.

Do not apologize, write notes, call, etc. Write those things in a journal or post them here. It is good to get them out of your head. Research shows doing so helps people because the brain doesn't feel a need to hold onto it.

If this is MLC, you are years away from being able to guide him in any way (if ever). For now, focus on you, detachment, being the best you that you can be. Self care, time with friends and family, health, etc.

It does get better with time. It really and truly does. Just take it a day at a time.

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I would cease all conversations about the relationship. You need to give him as much time and space that he needs to figure things out. The stages of MLC are just a guide and the timeline is just that...a timeline to give you an idea of how long each stage may last...but the kicker is that each person is unique, the personality is unique, the childhood is unique and so are the coping skills, or should I say, non-coping skills are unique.

I have been here for 20 years and I have never suggested that someone guide a MLCer. I honestly do not think you can do that because they are operating on pure emotions and if they even get a idea that you attempt attempting to guide/control them, they will come out swinging and swear you are either trying to control them and/or manipulate them.

If you have apologized for whatever you think you said or did wrong, then that is enough. He knows you love him, he knows you want him back and you will do whatever you can to get him back, i.e., even pretzel your into doing things that he comes up w/i.e., a list of our shortcomings. If you think you have some behaviors that need to be worked on, then work on them and make those changes a permanent part of your life and not to win him back. When he sees the changes taking place, he may attempt to bait you into reacting/saying some of the old things that you use to do/say...don't take the bait.

As for counseling...they go for a session of two and hear what they want to hear and that's about it. They take what they wanted to hear and twist it to their advantage. If you want counseling, I suggest going by yourself because right now counseling for the both of you together is a waste of time because he's going to tune out the important work that he needs to do.

Do not attempt to try to rationalize w/him about what he's going through or doing. MLCers do not like for us to try to tell them what is wrong w/them. Remember...he's emotional, confused and yes, depressed at the moment. You can't rationalize w/someone who is not thinking rationally. BTW, the main ingredient of MLC is depression.

Start looking around for lawyers that offer a free consultation and make an appointment. Make a list of the questions that you want to ask and take that list w/you. Tell the lawyer that you are there doing a fact finding mission and want to know what your options are if a divorce should come to pass. Do not share any of this information with your h. This info is for you and you alone.

Now, dig deeper for patience, educate yourself on depression and MLC. Keep the focus on you and what you need to do to protect yourself financially and above all else...try to detach as much as you can. This is a long journey and one that you weren't invited on...but your journey is going to be about you and helping you to become more confident and self assured and be the person that you were when you met your h. Remember...this is a marathon, not a sprint. You can't rush the process...give him the space and time he needs.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Writing on forums is something I have never done before nor ever thought I would be comfortable doing. I am so thankful and overcome with emotions that there are people like yourselves out there that take their time to help others who feel hopeless and blindsided.

How do I know for sure if it is MLC? Truthfully at this point does the label really matter?

I’m doing my best to detach but fully realize I am still too focused on what he is doing. It has DEFINITELY improved from where I was a short 2 months ago. I have almost fully stopped snooping and have stopped obsessing over where he is and with whom.

One of H behaviours that is beyond confusing to me is he hides his aggressive/angry side quite well. We have never been fighters or arguers which is also part of the problem of him feeling like he’s never had a voice I guess. I don’t understand why one day he hides in the basement and will say but 2 words to me then the next day offer me dinner, tea and make “normal” conversation. I’ve read a lot on here about “cake-eating”. Is that what this is? Should I be getting up and removing myself from the common space?
Tonight for example, he’s been home for over 3 hours and has asked if I wanted a tea but has not approached the S/D conversation again...is this because I walked away last night without agreeing to it? I simply turned off the light and removed myself from the situation cause it was sooo late.

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Job - Thank you! I feel like I’ve made soooo many mistakes after finding this site. His family reached out to me and I’ve since met with MIL and SIL. Both of our families have always been very loving and supportive but his much more from an aloof distance (which I’m coming to understand has had a deeper impact on him than I ever could have realized). MIL was very matter of fact when she said to me “well these things happen” where as SIL I think knows /realizes something isn’t right at all. SIL invited me out before Xmas, MIL ended up coming too .... I was so nervous and didn’t know what to say, how much to say...in the end I told the truth of what I believed was happening in that we did not just grow apart and that I believe it is some sort of MLC. I know my SIL has more questions and wants to stay in touch but I don’t know how much to say and what not to say. I feel like I’ve already said to much, but at this point people in my corner keep telling me “what do I have to lose”. I get so confused.

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How old is your H?

My XH would come over a lot in the beginning and have a lot of those nice behaviors
He would seek me out in the house to talk
He was already living with other woman and I was not sure there was another Woman

Looking back , I think he still loved me and was trying to come to his terms on ending the M / leaving for the new relationship
He was 40...prime time for MLC
He bpught a motorcycle, bought younger looking clothes..the OW was 28, dyed his hair and eyebrows

He did 2-3 therapy sessions..but he was checked out
he was classic MLCer

Problem is it takes a long time 2-7 years and longer

Many of us thought we could think our way into a quick fix...some H will turn around, maybe after time
after the OW affair burns out, if it does..

MY XH Married her, divorced her and I think they are still together
They hate eac hother,
she has texted me on occasion sharing her unhappiness and wanting to send him back
Her family has contacted me with the same information

He was a sober man no alcohol during M...OW was a drug addict and he became addicted to prescriptions and alcohol

Many MLCers will go down a destructive path
You have to watch for this

They will spend ALL the money, take saved money, steal from the home...

If your first attorney was not good, seek another

My experience was different and My divorce L was given to me by a friend who validated his integrity and knowledge
He was an excellent L, kind and very smart
He helped me enormously save my assets because my xh was trying to put us in debt and almost did

Be smart...watch your credit cards and all accounts
move quickly
Your H already has his plan in mind
you wont be able to stop him


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I wouldn't talk too much to his family as blood is thicker than water and they may attempt to talk to him. The more they attempt to talk to him, the more he's going to pull away and who knows what story he will spin to make you and the marriage look bad. It's best not to share too much because it will make things harder for him to return home to you, if and when he comes to his senses.

MLC is all about depression, confusion and searching for that illusive happiness. Does he appear depressed or confused at times?

Passive/aggressive behavior is a "learned" behavior and more than likely he learned to keep his feelings stuffed down at a very early age in order to keep the peace or stay out of trouble. They are very moody people and react on a dime because their journey is an emotional and spiritual one. We do not have any idea just how deep the hurt and painful scars are because we don't see them and because they have stuffed their feelings way down into their souls for a very long time.

If he's not brought up the separation/divorce, then let it be. The more you give him space and time, the better. Sometimes they will use the "divorce" word to get us to back off and just leave them be. They do like to have control and threaten us at times just to reel us back in and keep us right where they left us pre-crisis. They do not understand that time doesn't stand still and we have to continue moving forward. The time clock is very, very slow because of the depression.

My advice would be to step back, leave him to his space and be cordial if he speaks to you. Keep your responses on point and not lengthy conversations because they can't handle long conversations or text messages. Their brains are like swiss cheese and they do tend to forget very easily and get sick more frequently during the crisis.

Dig deeper for patience and keep the focus on you. Sit quietly and the answers will come...but if you aren't in a hurry for a divorce...don't bring it up. If he does, then you can address it. If he's ranting about something, just say "I'm sorry that you feel that way" and walk away. Do not get into arguments w/him if you can avoid it. They are miserable human beings and they do not want to see others happy.

Keep the focus on you, live your life to the fullest as if he may not return.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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H sent an email last night with S papers. I don’t know how to detach enough to not let this upset me. I’m literally hiding and so emotional ever time it feels like another BD. I know I’m strong enough but have such weak moments that throw me off so badly it’s like my brain shuts down. How do I get the focus I need when moments like these spin me into such great upset over the loss of H and our forever changed / potentially gone R?

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You are so very new to what is happening in your life. It is understandable to be upset and fearful of what is to come. You are human and yes, you are going to have days when you get emotional. When you do, allow those feelings to wash over you and then release them. It's not easy to detach from his actions/comments, but in time, you will be able to do so.

One thing you need to come to grips w/is that the old marriage is dead, gone. If, and when, you and your h reconcile, it will have to be a brand new relationship. You cannot go back to the old ways because neither of you will be the same once his crisis is over. You both will have grown by leaps and bounds and at that point, you will be the one to decide whether to try again, not him.

For now, breathe, it's okay to cry and grieve for the loss of the relationship/marriage. It's never easy, but you will need to pick yourself up and think about selecting a lawyer to help you make some decisions. Once you receive separation/divorce papers, you need to look at your situation as a business deal gone sour. Think w/your head and not your heart when dealing w/the separation/divorce. Do not allow him to sway you w/promises of what he will or will not do for you because they change their minds entirely too quickly if things do not go their way.

Breathe! Be kind/gentle to yourself today.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Kindly... if your H is set on separation and divorce, there is not really anything you can do to stop him. My advice would be to take the separation agreement to a lawyer and review it. I was in the same position as you last year...my normally unorganized H got his sh*t together and presented me with an agreement that, TBH, was actually very reasonable and even weighted a bit in my favour. I know now that there was an OW motivating him to get it done but I didn’t then so the sense of urgency was a bit baffling.

Anyway....I honestly feel that if I had put up a big fight or tried to slow things down, the agreement would have been a lot less favourable for me and it still wouldn’t have changed the outcome. I would still be divorced. So....as hard as it is...you need to deal with this part of things as business like as possible and make sure you get a fair agreement. By all means, take your time and don’t go out of your way to hasten the process but don’t actively try to stop it either because the reality is, you can’t. It takes two people to marry but only one to divorce. At the end of the day, if he wants a divorce, he will get one.

I’m sorry you are going through this. I KNOW how hard this is. But... you CAN and you WILL get through this and you WILL be OKAY. I promise. It gets better with time. (((HUGS)))

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The feelings are real and this hurts very badly

If you can get an individual counselor 1-2 x a week to help sort through the pain

we have to grieve and it hurts ..so if you can take the time alone to be there to
self care;

journel
cry
embrace the pain and it will pass..this is very painful..no way around the pain
support groups
spiritual groups, places of worship, readings of your personal religion or beliefs
read
exercise
sleep or rest
u tube videos of positive messages
meditate
breathe

if he is a heavy drinker you can attend alanon to learn and get support there also


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Sending support and hugs to you, Kindly.


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Thank you Cardinal. I came across your thread yesterday and am in shock over how similar our stories are. I had to double check that your post wasn’t mine! I guess in some strange way it offers support that we are not “crazy” with some of the lines MLC H send our way when you see similar / exact words in black and white from a complete stranger. Sending hugs and support back to you.

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Thanks peacetoday.
The feelings are definitely real and the reoccurring thought of “who is this alien person and why doesn’t he have the ability to see that he can express how he’s feeling/ talk.” We’ve always been so close yet he says NOTHING.

I have taken steps to improve my nutrition, meditation/breathing for sleep and calming down. I was walking and playing sports but the holidays changed my routine. I will return to both.
I find I have major trouble right now reading or even watching tv. Either my concentration just isn’t there or more often the storyline upsets me. I need to find some shows that have no reference to relationships etc....lol!!!

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DejaVu6 lol “ my normally unorganized H got his sh*t together”..... I feel exactly the same way. H was threatening papers from a week after DB and hasn’t waivered or stopped brining it up at least once a month.

I looked over the papers and it’s a huge mess...missing info (that benefits him) but I think I’m better to find a lawyer and get their help because I feel like it will be a disastrous conversation if I try to work it out with H on my own. He has said he wants to keep everything amicable but I have my doubts once he realizes more of what by law I’ll be entitled to.

I dug deep and had a very upbeat face to face convo tonight saying I got the doc and will find a lawyer. (This after crying out of the house for most of the morning) He didn’t seem taken aback just more head hung and said “yes it’s time you really do”. I suspect his urgency is an OW but so far only know about EA that H said ended....which I don’t know to be truth or false. Either way I fully realize it doesn’t matter.
I am already benefiting so much from the support I am finding on here. It is so nice to know there are people that FULLY understand. Thank you all.

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Originally Posted by job
One thing you need to come to grips w/is that the old marriage is dead, gone. If, and when, you and your h reconcile, it will have to be a brand new relationship. You cannot go back to the old ways because neither of you will be the same once his crisis is over. You both will have grown by leaps and bounds and at that point, you will be the one to decide whether to try again, not him.

For now, breathe, it's okay to cry and grieve for the loss of the relationship/marriage. It's never easy, but you will need to pick yourself up and think about selecting a lawyer to help you make some decisions. Once you receive separation/divorce papers, you need to look at your situation as a business deal gone sour. Think w/your head and not your heart when dealing w/the separation/divorce. Do not allow him to sway you w/promises of what he will or will not do for you because they change their minds entirely too quickly if things do not go their way.

Breathe! Be kind/gentle to yourself today.


Thx job! Being kind to myself is a struggle for me too. I will re-read this.
Having learned how much h has suppressed his feelings and “runs/hides” as a people pleaser...how do I even hold out hope for a R when he has never ever “looked within”...how can he possibly start now? Also, do MLCrs ever realize the extent of damage they’ve done/ hurt they’ve caused? I feel like if they do, how on earth do they ever feel they can return?

I hope this doesn’t sound like I’m super attached still ...I know I’m not detached yet but I am less asking the above out of desperation and more out of interest /curiosity about this MLC journey.

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I believe the MLCer knows the hurt they caused...but they also have ways of dulling reality and forgetting the pain they inflicted

they run, they go in denial, they use alcohol and substances, they use affairs and sex, they us drugs, spending
there are many ways to drown out their pain and that is why you see him running

Remember the crises is not your fault or about you
yes the M may have been good and bad..

they are usually running from previous trauma from childhood..things never resolved
although they lived with it for most of their life

In my opinion, it comes up in midlife and causes this reflection on their lives and the crises
most will never realize this and project their pain on you and the M

but saying and knowing this, cant help them..they cant see it and will think you are crazy if you say it
keep it to yourself..but know its not you


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Thx peacetoday - I missed earlier you asked H age...he’s 44. Looking back after BD I was able to see that things have been “off” with him since at least Oct 2018. How on earth did I miss the signs of something happening, even more work than usual, distant at times, restless sleeping...I thought it was work and he let me believe that or denied anything at all was “wrong”.

Does anybody know / have experience with what changes a mlcers destructive path? What triggers them to rethink or dig deeper to see that all hope is not lost? ESP if they are in complete denial and won’t seek any form of help.

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When the MLCer has tried all avenues to dull their pain and there is nothing left to distract them, they will then begin to look within. MLCers, like addicts, must hit their bottom. Until they are ready to face reality, they will be lost. They have to lose everything, i.e., respect, the love and compassion, understanding, etc., from their families and friends. They even have lost respect for themselves and when they do hit their bottom, that is when they finally realize that all of those exterior "fixes" where not the answers to dull their pain. When they come to realize that they were not at fault for what happened to them so long ago is when they will truly wake up and begin the long journey back to reality.

That long journey will take a while, i.e., just as it took them to go into crisis. They don't just snap out of it, it is a very gradual rise to the surface and one that we will begin to see when they begin to reconnect w/friends, etc.

It is important to let them go, give them the space and time that they need. We can push and prod and suggest getting help, but until they are ready to do so, they won't. Just like an addict, they have to work on themselves and be ready to admit that something is wrong and then seek help...we can't do that for them, because we didn't break them, therefore, we can't fix them. The best advice is to listen and validate whenever possible.

BTW, you missed the signs just like all of us...they were very gradual and we may have thought that they were having issues at work or just not feeling well...you wouldn't have known what to look for...but looking back in the rearview mirror now, you can think about things and actually begin to piece together the signs back then. Don't beat yourself up because you didn't see the signs....again, they are so gradual, we didn't pay too much attention to them.

Dig deeper for patience and keep that focus on you.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Kindly, I watched my lefty, atheist, clean-shaven, pet-hating, teetotaling, drug-abhoring, travel eschewing, husband take up with a Republican dog-owner and then a self-proclaimed religious drinker. In the process he's grown a beard, told me he would pray for me, lives with dogs (and the other woman's kids), apparently drinks heavily, abused drugs at one point, and travels a lot. As job says, they will try it all. They will keep trying looking for the thing that will finally make them happy. I can't tell you how many times I said my husband would never . . .

You can't stop it. You can't fix it (but you can fix your need to fix it). You can't shorten it (but I think you can extend it). All you can do is find yourself and survive--for you. Maybe you will be on the same path again one day. Maybe you won't. But finding you is always going to pay dividends.

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Job - Thank you for the answer...it helps to understand some of the why. I feel like my skull is soooo thick. I hear the words, I understand the words but I feel like I’m still coming up with “buts” ....”but if I just say this he’ll get it or at least think about it at some point”. I feel like I’m trapping myself because I haven’t had the opportunity to apologize for how I’ve made him feel (mostly MLC talk but if he said it aloud I should have validated instead of fought ...this was early on in the confusion stage) now he’s shut right down and does anything and everything to avoid a conflict of any sort including talking. He also still seems to be going out with family and friends which seems ‘abnormal’ for MLC so I’m feeling like things are status quo for him, while also questioning if I’m using MLC incorrectly as an answer to his behaviour. Much advice says ignore them, detach but then others say change what you need to change within yourself and he’ll see those changes but my H won’t if he’s not even communicating with me. [i]<whine whine whine> even as I read this back I’m annoyed with myself but I feel like it helps to clear my head. [/i]
I guess if I was to actually pull a question out of the above ramble it would be:

1. Do they often appear as if everything is fine with total confidence that nothing has changed? Except for when hiding in ‘their quarters’ and showing avoidance behaviour at home?

2. How do I show him change is possible from a distance when I feel like he’s not even looking? When The changes “we” as a couple need to make are quite minimal but the changes we individually need to make within ourselves are larger and he’s oblivious to that. - again when I read this back the answer seems obvious in that I can’t “make” him see anything. frown

I sometimes feel like it’s harder when he’s here but then at least I know where he is. I dunno.
Thank you all so much

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Ownit- Thx for making me laugh with the beginning of your post...especially today it’s been a rough one emotionally. I hope you don’t take offence to that. I love the way your wrote that and you must have a great sense of humour. Another important quality at times throughout this I’m sure.
Originally Posted by OwnIt
You can't stop it. You can't fix it (but you can fix your need to fix it). You can't shorten it (but I think you can extend it). All you can do is find yourself and survive--for you. Maybe you will be on the same path again one day. Maybe you won't. But finding you is always going to pay dividends.

I LOVE this ......“you can fix your need to fix it”!!! Just like I can fix my want “to know”, my need to “see the further”, my need and want to “throttle him back to his senses” instead of constantly beating myself down.lol!

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Originally Posted by job
When the MLCer has tried all avenues to dull their pain and there is nothing left to distract them, they will then begin to look within. MLCers, like addicts, must hit their bottom. Until they are ready to face reality, they will be lost. They have to lose everything, i.e., respect, the love and compassion, understanding, etc., from their families and friends. They even have lost respect for themselves and when they do hit their bottom, that is when they finally realize that all of those exterior "fixes" where not the answers to dull their pain. When they come to realize that they were not at fault for what happened to them so long ago is when they will truly wake up and begin the long journey back to reality.


Wise words from job. I needed to hear this too.

Kindly, you are not alone. As for question #1, the posters here advocate believing half of what you see and nothing of what they say (I think that's correct, if not hopefully someone will set me straight). The advice is to not worry about how they think, feel, act, appear, or talk. Ideally your actions will be based on your own values and principles and therefore shouldn't change based on anything to do with your H. This answers your question #2. You don't change for him. Change if you believe you need to change.


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Originally Posted by Kindly
now he’s shut right down and does anything and everything to avoid a conflict of any sort including talking. He also still seems to be going out with family and friends which seems ‘abnormal’ for MLC...
1. Do they often appear as if everything is fine with total confidence that nothing has changed? Except for when hiding in ‘their quarters’ and showing avoidance behaviour at home?

My H was like that. Looked and acted normal generally. Avoided serious talks. Until he started to self-destruct.

Originally Posted by Kindly
2. How do I show him change is possible from a distance when I feel like he’s not even looking?

You don’t, you make changes for yourself and the purpose is not to show him. He may or may not notice. But that doesn’t matter if they are still deep in MLC...you do things for your own good. Not to win him back.


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Kindly

they do/will notice the change in us
this shift helps form a friendship or a co parenting agreement if there are kids

they have to see and feel the energy shift from anger /fear to allowing working on acceptance

but usually the shift will not be enough to turn their heads back
In some cases where it is not MLC it may
Your situation sounds very MLC to me but Im not an expert only a fellow traveler

When they see we are OK, it makes it easier for them to transition out

remember we cant control this so we are choosing a higher road for us
a road of compassion dealing with a sick H

hang in


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Hi, Kindly. It is helpful to follow along with your thread, because you are asking many of the questions I have asked. You are not alone. We are not alone, and there are many here who have been on this path.

Originally Posted by Kindly
1. Do they often appear as if everything is fine with total confidence that nothing has changed? Except for when hiding in ‘their quarters’ and showing avoidance behaviour at home?


One of the things my H will do is act like everything is fine and he's living a wonderful life while he does his best to avoid me when he's at home, which totally makes me question reality. Sometimes I will see a glimpse of anger or something other than that projection of happiness in him and remember that what's going on on the surface is very different than what's going on inside him, and that's why he's trying to run from it. It's crazy-making, which I suppose is a good reason for the compassionate detachment we're trying to reach.

Originally Posted by Kindly
2. How do I show him change is possible from a distance when I feel like he’s not even looking?

Visit my thread and you'll see I recently asked a similar question, even as I knew the answer, which is pretty much what others have said here! The more I am seeing of my H's ability to justify any decision he makes, the more the truth of this, "Make changes for YOU," hits home. Example: He has noticed changes, but worries they won't last. It seems like if they do notice, it will be something like that, or they will come up with other reasons, whatever they can. So, whether he does or doesn't notice is beside the point, ultimately--they should be changes that are in accordance with your core values, for yourself.


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Kindly, you do have to find the humor where you can--it is a must to survive.

Mine is a professional with a very big and important job. His job loves him. He's gotten several promotions through this. He gets a lot of supply from the job so he has become a workaholic to soak up all the praise and adulation he gets there.

I have not had one person from his life contact me (other than OW1--she said he was manipulative, a liar, and all her friends hated him) to convey any concerns about his behavior or what he was doing. His family that he previously wrote off and had nothing to do with for 25 years appears to have welcomed him back with open arms. I don't think any but those very close to them see anything wrong.

I have gone up to 1.5 years without seeing mine (and with him not seeing my kids). He has stalked me throughout though and done creepy things and I've kept a side eye on his actions from afar). I can tell you with absolute certainty that he sees the changes in me. How? I don't contact him unless it absolutely necessary (and even this has been 1-2 times per year with two kids), I don't cry when I'm around him, I don't do anything to seek his attention, and I no longer take the bait when he tries to temp check me or find out if I still care. When I stopped manufacturing reasons to contact him or see him, he started manufacturing reasons to see me (usually through settlement/divorce talk that goes nowhere). I've also dropped tons of weight and keep better care of myself. That I know he sees, but won't acknowledge.

They do see you. They do see the changes. But only when they are real. Only when you really drop the rope. Its an energy, it's things we can't control.

You may not want to hear this, but while you really want him back now, chances are you won't by the time he would actually come back. I get somewhat sick at the thought of mine touching me, or even talking to me about anything other than logistics. I see him as a weak, sad, tainted man. None of those things are attractive. Then I look at my children when they are hurting and sometimes I do hate him, but usually for just a moment.

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Originally Posted by Woosa
My H was like that. Looked and acted normal generally. Avoided serious talks. Until he started to self-destruct.

Woosa- how long after BD did self destruct start and what did that look like for you/H ...should I find your thread? My Hs behaviour often makes me feel like I’m crazy and that this isn’t MLC and that he will just carry on his merry way because it’s what he said he will do in the beginning and throughout.

[quote=peacetoday] When they see we are OK, it makes it easier for them to transition out.


This is exactly how I feel....and is truthful one of my big insecurities if I’m being honest with myself. In the beginning when things were very bad and I was in awful shape, he stayed around and tried to be compassionate and “help” me but then just couldn’t do it anymore as the monsters in his head seemed to take over. I often feel like if I wasn’t doing well he would feel the need to take care of me. This is 100% my weak voice talking from a desperate place. 5 months in I’m finding it easier to silence this voice, but some days it’s hard to keep the head high and shoulders back.

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Originally Posted by cardinal
One of the things my H will do is act like everything is fine and he's living a wonderful life while he does his best to avoid me when he's at home, which totally makes me question reality. Sometimes I will see a glimpse of anger or something other than that projection of happiness in him and remember that what's going on on the surface is very different than what's going on inside him, and that's why he's trying to run from it. It's crazy-making, which I suppose is a good reason for the compassionate detachment we're trying to reach.

Thx Cardinal - it’s so true...I am constantly questioning myself especially because he’s not showing the same behaviour to his closest friends. He is so matter of fact with them that they just take what he is saying at face value. I want to reach out to one of his co-workers so badly but I imagine that would be a no-no. He takes many opportunities to remind me that he’s serious ...”why would you buy that we won’t be here for long” or “when we sell”..... so hurtful....but his reality I guess. And the reminder to make changes for you is so important regardless of hard it seems at times.

Originally Posted by OwnIt
Mine is a professional with a very big and important job. His job loves him. He's gotten several promotions through this. He gets a lot of supply from the job so he has become a workaholic to soak up all the praise and adulation he gets there.


Ownit- this is one of the major catalyst in my situation. H is a workaholic and always has been. Once the MLC hit he dove into work even more. Praise and adulation became the only thing that mattered to him and I still didn’t see this shift as a problem until BD. Another area where it seems like he is still functioning highly which makes me question my sanity regarding whether this is MLC Or not .

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Woosa - I’m still learning how to quote ... I accidentally asked you a question mixed in with your quote. Sorry about that crazy

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Originally Posted by job
If he's not brought up the separation/divorce, then let it be. The more you give him space and time, the better. Sometimes they will use the "divorce" word to get us to back off and just leave them be. They do like to have control and threaten us at times just to reel us back in and keep us right where they left us pre-crisis. ....

Dig deeper for patience and keep the focus on you. Sit quietly and the answers will come...but if you aren't in a hurry for a divorce...don't bring it up. If he does, then you can address it.


So H sent me via email financial discovery forms to start the S process...I am very confused as to what to do next. I have started my search for a lawyer...but realized that something doesn’t feel right here. Since Nov he’s been threatening S/D and specifically said his Lawyer was going to reach out to me. That never happened. Now he sends these papers and has left MAJOR assets off. I asked if this was from his lawyer and he said yes. My gut says it is not even though there is a L name at the top of pages...it’s too sloppy. How do I navigate this? I don’t know if this is just another push me away tactic after the holidays where family and friends might have tried to reason with his baffling decision or whether it’s legit and I need to comply as not to look bad in the eyes of the law. There has been little to no conversation between us since prob Nov/Dec And the last convo where I asked him if he was sure he wanted to dismantle our lives like this did not go well when I mentioned certain assets. I don’t want to get “tricked” into retaining a lawyer or progressing his wishes along when he could be MLC lying ....Any advice for how to proceed?

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Originally Posted by Kindly
Woosa- how long after BD did self destruct start and what did that look like for you/H ...should I find your thread? My Hs behaviour often makes me feel like I’m crazy and that this isn’t MLC and that he will just carry on his merry way because it’s what he said he will do in the beginning and throughout.

Honestly he's been on a path of self destruction for awhile now. But after BD he never lost it with me. In hindsight I think he knew he would if he's around so he opted to not sleep here anymore and minimize his time here. but just a few days ago he blew up. so in terms of a timeline it's about 3~4 months since BD. For whatever reason he hit a low point that day and couldn't contain it.

Originally Posted by Kindly
So H sent me via email financial discovery forms to start the S process...I am very confused as to what to do next. I have started my search for a lawyer...but realized that something doesn’t feel right here. Since Nov he’s been threatening S/D and specifically said his Lawyer was going to reach out to me. That never happened. Now he sends these papers and has left MAJOR assets off. I asked if this was from his lawyer and he said yes.

Have you consulted a L yet? If not I would strongly recommend it. knowledge is power. Take legal matters seriously and let your L determine whether he is lying etc.


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Originally Posted by Woosa
Originally Posted by Kindly
Woosa- how long after BD did self destruct start and what did that look like for you/H ...should I find your thread? My Hs behaviour often makes me feel like I’m crazy and that this isn’t MLC and that he will just carry on his merry way because it’s what he said he will do in the beginning and throughout.

Honestly he's been on a path of self destruction for awhile now. But after BD he never lost it with me. In hindsight I think he knew he would if he's around so he opted to not sleep here anymore and minimize his time here. but just a few days ago he blew up. so in terms of a timeline it's about 3~4 months since BD. For whatever reason he hit a low point that day and couldn't contain it.



Interesting Woosa... my H also had a couple of outbursts directed toward me in the 3-4 months range. I felt the most calm and detached during his second one, when he seemed to be following a script. It was like observing a subject in an experiment. I suppose I should try to tap into that way of observing things as often as I can!

Thanks for your support on my thread, Kindly! As you know, I also feel crazy a lot of the time. smile It's much harder to have any kind of perspective on one's own sitch, at least in my experience. We must hang in there and try not to doubt ourselves too much.


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Kindly,

How you navigate depends on what you want and whether you risk anything by not acting now (which I now assume the LBS does in most cases).

If you don't want to help with the divorce or move it along and not doing so doesn't hurt you, then just respond and say hey I noticed you left a bunch of stuff off. Why don't you send me a complete form and when I get it, I'll go see a lawyer and respond. If it is serious, he should fill it out and send it to you. If it isn't you won't hear anything.

Don't assume that because it is not complete that a lawyer didn't do it. Could be a sloppy lawyer or an untruthful husband (my vote is on the untruthful husband). Or to save costs the lawyer could have given him the form and said fill this out and give it to her. Unless you want no communication with him and you want to pay lawyers to talk to lawyers (something that makes me chill to the bone, but some prefer this), then don't care whether he drafted it or the lawyer did because you will never know. As 25yearmlc always quoted, constant wondering is constant suffering.

I like to do things that leave the ball in his court so he can't accuse me of stalling (even though he still does) or think I'm trying to hold onto him (which makes him feel safe and happy to stay in his mess). It also tells me when he is really committed to doing something.

Don't teach him how to hurt you. Don't freak out and get worried or hop to because he takes some action (especially if it is an action you don't want to see again, like constant divorce talk, because he will use the same trick the next time). Show him calm. If it was an effort to test you, the only way you will ever know is by looking like you are complying by leaving the ball in his court, and then looking backward to see if he actually followed through.

Most basic rule--don't do something for him to make it easier for him if it is not something you want or is not in your best interest. You can't nice these people back. You can only allow yourself to be screwed by being afraid of standing up for what is rightfully yours.

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Hi Kindly,

My vote...Untruthful MLC H...

My friend trusted her MLC H, and he made the papers himself to save money
she signed
She did lose everything including her home

when it comes to D...You may see another side to your H

Some will steal trust funds that belong to the kids...Mine came to my home, while watching the kids and took deeds to his car and motorcycle.He drained our business and put it in debt
..they change and if it is MLC, you will see a slow decline

My seemed sort of normal maybe the first 6 months other than the late hour out and not wanting to spend anytime with me
He visited a lot..after he moved out he was friendlier
He took the kids school age at that time to arcades and dinner
He bought them lots of gifts




You may notice alcohol, later hours, spending, secretive calls and texts ect

At fiirst , I could not believe XH was draining our business, overspending
He lived with OW, he said he was at friends,, they lie a alot
Then I found a credit card statement

get a free consult asap
stay calm as own said
don't be surprised if he tried to pressure you to agree or if he gets crazy or angry..

MLC are on their own plan right now and little concern for spouse or kids


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Thank you so much both ownit and peacetoday! Your reassurance and words of advice are right in line with my thinking and my heart. This is so calming for me in such a place of misalignment.

Originally Posted by OwnIt
How you navigate depends on what you want and whether you risk anything by not acting now (which I now assume the LBS does in most cases).
If you don't want to help with the divorce or move it along and not doing so doesn't hurt you, then just respond and say hey I noticed you left a bunch of stuff off. Why don't you send me a complete form and when I get it, I'll go see a lawyer and respond. If it is serious, he should fill it out and send it to you. If it isn't you won't hear anything.


The above is exactly what I want to do...but a conversation took place a couple months ago where he was dumbfounded and angry that I would even bring up his business as an asset!!! And then to completely leave that off of discovery yet mention my pension ?? What the heck! I feel like I’m in for a nasty battle of words if I try to address this “amicably”.

Originally Posted by OwnIt
Don't assume that because it is not complete that a lawyer didn't do it. Could be a sloppy lawyer or an untruthful husband (my vote is on the untruthful husband). Or to save costs the lawyer could have given him the form and said fill this out and give it to her. Unless you want no communication with him and you want to pay lawyers to talk to lawyers (something that makes me chill to the bone, but some prefer this), then don't care whether he drafted it or the lawyer did because you will never know. As 25yearmlc always quoted, constant wondering is constant suffering.

I like to do things that leave the ball in his court so he can't accuse me of stalling (even though he still does) or think I'm trying to hold onto him (which makes him feel safe and happy to stay in his mess). It also tells me when he is really committed to doing something.


I agree and vote untruthful H as well however I asked again and he responded with yes it’s the lawyers final draft and nothing should change but then said he’s certain it will go back and forth between lawyers what the heck does that mean? Why would he say that unless he knows it’s not accurate...? Anyway, the only reason I’m giving this my time is because I too cringe at the thought of not sorting this first stage out by ourselves and the $$$ for L...but how do I even approach that with the reaction I got 2 months ago? I’m trying to predict what I’m in for as soon as I say “hey you left some major assets off”...just for some further insight he also told OW In EA that I will get vindictive and come after the B. Am I best to bite the bullet and involve the lawyers now? Or how can I do this effectively and with the ball still in his court which I’m also a huge fan of cause I too am not being accused of moving this along!!

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Originally Posted by peacetoday
Hi Kindly,

My vote...Untruthful MLC H...

My friend trusted her MLC H, and he made the papers himself to save money
she signed
She did lose everything including her home


This is awful!!

Originally Posted by peacetoday

You may notice alcohol, later hours, spending, secretive calls and texts ect

get a free consult asap
stay calm as own said
don't be surprised if he tried to pressure you to agree or if he gets crazy or angry..

MLC are on their own plan right now and little concern for spouse or kids


Noticed all of the above behaviour. I’m on it, consulting now and realize staying calm is soooo important. Thanks for the warnings this all helps with what to possibly expect so I can prepare myself at least a little.
Sometimes when I read this stuff back the disbelief that this is happening overpowers....how can this alien not be awoken when S**t starts to get real? Sorry for the swear.
Thank you all so much.

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I'm not saying not to see a lawyer, you absolutely should. But if you guys can be civil you can each talk to your own and deal with each other rather than adding to the cost and moving it along faster (unless that is what you want). His business is very likely an asset and should be included. Just get him to complete it. You don't need to say anything to him about the contents. When he comes back, if he does, take what he gives you to your lawyer and tell your lawyer about the business and anything else that should be there. Then, after your lawyer blesses it, take it back to him and say your lawyer made these changes.

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Don't forget any IRA's, CD's, stocks and bonds that he has or you both have need to be addressed. Won't he have a pension when he is of retirement age? Your pension shouldn't be the only one addressed in discovery.

OwnIt has given you some very good advice. Give him the paperwork and have him complete it. If things are missing that should be addressed, point that out to your lawyer and let him/her address that with his lawyer.

I remember when I went through this and the minute my xh realized that he wasn't going to bully me into giving him everything he wanted...he went into major monster mode. He tried to everything from bullying to then switching to nice guy and when that didn't work...back to bullying. I'm not trying to scare you, but they usually do not wake up when the situation gets real. I haven't seen too many of them play nice when they realize that their wallet is being affect in a major way.

Stay strong and positive, and do not allow him to bully and/or threaten you with anything just to get his way. When speaking to him, stay on point, calm and look him in the eye.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Hi Kindly

Sorry you're going through all this.

Even though you're in the USA I assume (I'm in Oz), I'd be willing to bet the business is an asset. I'm positive your legislation would set out what are included as assets, financial resources and liabilities etc. A L can tell you straight away, so you dont have to try and guess.

Here in Oz it is clear if you know where to look. There are even fact sheets prepared by the relevant courts that set out these things, and set out how the spouses have duties to the COurt and one another to actively disclose their financial situation, as opposed to being chased and followed up by their spouse to reveal.

There may be similar fact sheets for your locale. I dont know. If there are, these can be used as an objective reference for your H, so rather than questions or comments coming from you, they are objective and what the law requires and more readily accepted.

I assume in USA you need to ascribe value to each asset? Businesses are hard to value. Here we have forensic accountants or business valuers. Your L may not be qualified to assess whether the business is worth what H says. You may wish to have the business properly valued for peace of mind. To me, your comment that he was dumbfounded and angry you even brought it up is telling - he likely wouldnt care if it wasnt worth anything.

Get L advice and get it early. Weigh up the potential $ cost for your L communicating everything on your behalf as against the cost to your emotional wellbeing and sanity in doing it yourself.

Good luck!


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Originally Posted by OwnIt
Just get him to complete it. You don't need to say anything to him about the contents. When he comes back, if he does, take what he gives you to your lawyer and tell your lawyer about the business and anything else that should be there. Then, after your lawyer blesses it, take it back to him and say your lawyer made these changes.

Thx OwnIt...so I still have not actually retained anyone but in my consults I have been told that the B is definitely an asset. I’m wondering if I can bluff here as H knows I’m looking for a L ....could I just say I’ve been in consult with some lawyers and your form is incomplete? Then it’s back in his court and I’m not paying yet for this confusing mess? Or do I engage a lawyer to talk to his lawyer and get this worked out to protect myself should this keep rolling forward, then the lawyer is the bad guy kinda and not as much me ....I’m sooooo torn. Anyone been in a similar sitch? Sorry for the overthinking.

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Job...thank you. I feel like my H will react the same as how you describe your situation. I’ve already seen glimpses of that up and down manipulative nice then biting behaviour. I will prepare for monster mode and hope for the best.

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Thx for adding to my thread DS9...sorry you find yourself here as well.

Originally Posted by DS9
Hi Kindly

Sorry you're going through all this.

Here in Oz it is clear if you know where to look. There are even fact sheets prepared by the relevant courts that set out these things, and set out how the spouses have duties to the COurt and one another to actively disclose their financial situation, as opposed to being chased and followed up by their spouse to reveal.

There may be similar fact sheets for your locale. I dont know. If there are, these can be used as an objective reference for your H, so rather than questions or comments coming from you, they are objective and what the law requires and more readily accepted.


You are bang on. I did a bunch more research over the last day and have found some legit documents stating that you can be charged for not disclosing accurate financial info or that doc will be void...this puts me in an awkward position. Do I continue to take the high road of kindness and point this out (from the law standpoint) and brace for Hs monster mode as well as potentially tipping him off to hide assets or react in any other negative way? Or hand over to L and potentially let him step in it for fraudulent claims on official doc? This is why my gut tells me his L did not fill this out. I know I can’t avoid it but I DO NOT want to be tricked into being the one that starts S/D process. He is the guy with a plan after all ....trying to be smart with a very clouded head. Thx for letting me lay it all out here.

Originally Posted by DS9
I assume in USA you need to ascribe value to each asset? Businesses are hard to value. Here we have forensic accountants or business valuers. Your L may not be qualified to assess whether the business is worth what H says. You may wish to have the business properly valued for peace of mind. To me, your comment that he was dumbfounded and angry you even brought it up is telling - he likely wouldnt care if it wasnt worth anything.

Get L advice and get it early. Weigh up the potential $ cost for your L communicating everything on your behalf as against the cost to your emotional wellbeing and sanity in doing it yourself.

Good luck!


Currently researching more about forensic accountants because it’s $$$$$$ to get B evaluated. But if it must be done then it must be done. I have another consult and will now have some new questions to explore. It’s stressful but empowering and you make an excellent point about also considering sanity/ emotional well-being somewhere in this mix.

Thank you all as always.

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Hey kindly

No worries my pleasure!

Frankly I’d hand the reins to your L to follow up with the disclosure, valuations etc. Your L can set out the obligations your h has and give a cordial reminder about the law. That gives a better level of separation between you and h and takes the pressure off you.

I get what you’re saying about keeping on the high road. But this is about your financial security and frankly it’s not your call whether or not he chooses to be open and frank with his financial position. Seriously, if you’re worried about undervalued assets, hidden assets etc tell your L now so they can take immediate steps to safeguard your position

I get it about saving costs with diy legal stuff but sometimes that’s false economy. Why not ask your L what groundwork you can actually do to save costs?

Cheers ds


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Good Morning Kindly

You are received some very good advice; the business side of this is something most of us have never experienced either.

Originally Posted by Kindly
Do I continue to take the high road of kindness and point this out (from the law standpoint) and brace for Hs monster mode as well as potentially tipping him off to hide assets or react in any other negative way? Or hand over to L and potentially let him step in it for fraudulent claims on official doc? This is why my gut tells me his L did not fill this out.

I know it’s hard to do; keep business as business and your healing path as your path.

Taking the high road, remaining kind, is an admirable and achievable goal. Pointing out H’s errors in separation/divorce documentation or flaws in his strategies or his life choices or etc... has nothing to do with you walking your path in a kind and high road manner.

H controls H. You control you. He’s going to do what he wants.

Hand stuff over to your lawyer and let your L analyze and tell you what your options are. You can make your informed decisions then, and for the most part - listen to your lawyer’s advice, you paid for it.

This puts space, a buffer, between H’s antics / possible monstering and you. Something you need; no point fighting H. That is the high road. Not fighting H. He wants this, remember? He just wants it his way, and that is not how it works.

Focus on you and your financial security and protection. That is the business of what you are currently embroiled in. Keep emotions out if this by utilizing your lawyer. Your emotions will change, however this deal will not. Make sure you are protected. I remember how bad this all felt going through it; feelings really do change. Do not base decisions upon temporary emotions.

I would consider letting your L do most of the work; your sanity and well-being is much more important than a few bucks. And as perviously stated it buffers you, somewhat removing you from the pushing of this separation forward, letting H decide when he wants to stop. You, well actually your L, is just responding to H’s demands.

Stay strong.

DnJ


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Most definitely , let the L handle all of it

Usually his L will discuss his need for honesty in this matter
each party does need to disclose all assets as I remember

My XH was good all the way up to the D,
then I saw him get crazy because he clearly saw maybe first hand
his choices would lead him down a potential path for financial destruction
and he was overspending on OW, which is also an issue with joint funds.

The D becomes a business deal
You are no longer in the same kind of R as you once were and as you read and see a MLCer H
will not be in his right mind
He will want to plan for his future with no regard to the spouse or kids
I saw this first hand

I had a once dedicated H and father
He was a good father, there for them
and he chose to totally abandon them as his father did to him

Please take the advise given here..
It works

I would up saving our business and I kept the home because I had a smart L
Divorce L totally get MLC
get a good one


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DS9/DnJ - Thank you both so much. Having a place to ask questions (sometimes ones your gut already knows the answer to but the head is clouded), vent, and explore options is invaluable. You are correct DnJ ...I like this and will copy it onto my phone:
”keep business as business and your healing path as your path”.
Such an obvious statement but one that requires focus.
Being a people pleaser makes some of this journey very difficult in the sense of remembering to look out for me and that I come first, but I am doing remarkably better than I was a few months ago!

Originally Posted by DnJ
This puts space, a buffer, between H’s antics / possible monstering and you. Something you need; no point fighting H. That is the high road. Not fighting H. He wants this, remember? He just wants it his way, and that is not how it works.
Focus on you and your financial security and protection. That is the business of what you are currently embroiled in. Keep emotions out if this by utilizing your lawyer. Your emotions will change, however this deal will not. Make sure you are protected. I remember how bad this all felt going through it; feelings really do change. Do not base decisions upon temporary emotions.
DnJ


Thank you. Emotionally I’m being plagued by going after B = vindictive and that this will escalate things horribly and even leak onto external relationships with extended family. BUT seeing your above words in black and white DnJ really helps...especially about the “high road” and “ emotions changing, the deal will not.”

I’m so fortunate to have found this resource and a group of “stranger friends” lol!! Hugs

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Kindly,

I would have a discussion w/your lawyer and allow him/her to handle the situation. Each person should disclose all assets. However, in my case, I was the one that did all of the discovery work and my xh didn't provide his, and to be honest, I didn't think he was capable of even doing the necessary work to complete the discovery side because he ws completely way out there and not thinking clearly. We didn't push for him to complete his package because I knew what he had in the way of assets and I had statements, etc. from a few years before he went off the edge of rational behavior.

MLCers lie, i.e., do not expect him to be honest. His lawyer will listen to what he has to say and will base his recommendations on those conversations. At some point, his lawyer should be able to recognize that something is "off" w/him. There are some lawyers that can tell right away that this is going to be a money fest and will prolong proceedings.

My xh went into truly monster mode after he was presented w/the separation papers that he wanted me to have drawn up. Once he received the draft papers....well...that was it...angry mode throughout the 2 1/2 years it took for us to be divorced. That may not be the case for you. Hopefully your h won't go to the angry mode.

Once you begin the process for a separation and/or a divorce...those actions become business deals. You will need to think w/your head and not your heart. He may very well promise you the moon just to get you to fall into the trap of believing him. Many of them do not follow through on their promises. Stay the course and listen to your lawyer.

What we recommend does work here...you just have to think like a business person now. The man you once knew is gone and he will do whatever it takes to make himself feel better...even if it means leaving you with little to nothing in the way of support, etc.

Protect yourself and your children and trust your lawyer. If you don't feel comfortable w/the present one, there is no harm in getting a second opinion.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Originally Posted by peacetoday

Please take the advise given here..
It works

I would up saving our business and I kept the home because I had a smart L
Divorce L totally get MLC
get a good one


I am so appreciative of the time that people take to give complete strangers advice based on the painful paths they have already walked and are walking.
PT - this is exactly one of the things I’m weighing right now which I know a lawyer will help me with. The math needs to be done because there is a lot to “bargain” with. It makes no sense to me to add up both sets of assets only to then divide the house and the B....time will tell.
I am still in consulting stage but this is proving to cause anxiety because finding a good L is like finding a good mechanic.....how do you know until you use them? It seems like it comes down to Consulting and gut and as much as I trust my gut will I bank the house on it???? Lol there are so few reviews and most people tend to take the time to more often write a bad review it seems for Ls...

Any advice for what worked for others when picking a lawyer?

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Kindly,

When I was out "shopping" for a lawyer, I made a list of questions to ask them. If you feel comfortable asking around, then do so. I would do a google search on them and see what comes up. I would look for those who give a free consult and then you should be able to determine from the first meeting if they are going to represent you properly. Once you have interviewed them, then make a list of the pros and cons of your impression of them. You should then be able to determine which one is the better fit.

At each interview, I stated my situation and watched the lawyer. I asked each of them if they were familiar with MLC. I then asked how many cases of MLC marriage breakups had they been involved in. If he/she is an honest lawyer, they will tell answer your questions honestly. From there, I then asked how we would proceed. I then thanked each one and came home and made my list and the one I choose was the most honest one of all who told me that it would take many months and much frustration to lock down my MLC husband because he would be irrational and nothing would please him. He was right...

I hope my experience will help you a wee bit.


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MY friend who was d right before me used this L, who was excellent
another D friend told me to spend the extra money on a good L because it will be worth it
I took their advice and I used the L my friend just used and he really helped her get her share

MY XH on the other hand used the cheapest L and she was not very good.

I would ask around if anyone has a relative or friend who used a D L that was good
If you cant get a referral, than follow your gut..get a free consult or a few..make it a priority
It is really a very important piece in this..Job has some good points as well

Good luck
You are doing well...its a difficult road and the board is very helpful


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Originally Posted by job
At each interview, I stated my situation and watched the lawyer. I asked each of them if they were familiar with MLC. I then asked how many cases of MLC marriage breakups had they been involved in.


Thanks Job as obvious as this question is I never thought to ask it....I always disclose this as being the situation but the last L I saw kinda just stared blankly at me. It’s prob also my own insecurities creeping in as in feeling/assuming that people are thinking “you poor dear in denial that your husband is sick of you ....you didn’t please him”.......blah blah blah.

Originally Posted by job

I then thanked each one and came home and made my list and the one I choose was the most honest one of all who told me that it would take many months and much frustration to lock down my MLC husband because he would be irrational and nothing would please him. He was right...

I hope my experience will help you a wee bit.


Great to know what realistically could happen. If H doesn’t start to come back this likely could be my situation too. Although I won’t put that out into the universe ...or did I just do that? Haha.

I also get the express feeling that many people ...docs, C, L etc feel like MLC is a myth which is what plays into my above insecurity. Anyone else feel that way?

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Actually, MLC is being discussed more and more in the community. Many moons ago, people didn't discuss MLC. In this day and age, thanks to Bill Clinton and others, people are talking more and more about the irrational behavior that some exhibit at certain ages.

Years ago, people would laugh at men who changed the way they dressed, i.e., from normal suits to shirts being only buttoned at the last two buttons, gold chains around their necks, the little red sports car and the young, blonde bimbo on their arms.

Now, people are becoming more aware of what is happening and what might trigger such behavior.

Some counselors don't believe in it...but we always recommend getting solution based counselors.

Trust me, lawyers can spot a MLC case a mile way and if a sleazy lawyer is representing a MLCer, all they are looking at is the bottom line...$$$.


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Originally Posted by job
Now, people are becoming more aware of what is happening and what might trigger such behavior.

Some counselors don't believe in it...but we always recommend getting solution based counselors.

Trust me, lawyers can spot a MLC case a mile way and if a sleazy lawyer is representing a MLCer, all they are looking at is the bottom line...$$$.


Job this is encouraging to hear...meaning your first sentence! Lol
I had a therapist but I found I was getting much more out of talking to my inner circle and now DEFINITELY this forum...it’s too expensive to not feel like your getting anywhere. I actually read an article on solution based C but I need to dig deeper into who offers this type of C and see if I can benefit from that. I think the million dollar piece of advice offered here repeatedly for people in this situation, as difficult as it is to read and put into effect, is GAL and detach. I’m in the learning stages, I’m still sad but I’m seeing a little clearer each day now.

I despise that there are such dishonest people out there that will take advantage of someone in an awful position. Other than doing your homework to the best of your ability I feel scared that a lot of this comes down to hoping you choose well.

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Originally Posted by job

Trust me, lawyers can spot a MLC case a mile way and if a sleazy lawyer is representing a MLCer, all they are looking at is the bottom line...$$$.


Just had a thought..maybe I shouldn’t be telling the potential L the MLC sitch...but then how do I get them to understand the confusion and messed up timelines? Is it better to make sure they are experienced in these sort of case as you stated earlier Job? I think I’m focusing too much on not getting ripped off.

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Yes, you are focusing too much on being ripped off. Make a list of lawyers, do a search on line and then talk to some of your friends as they may know something about one or two of the lawyers. Look for those who offer free consultations as well.

Trust me, many of them have been down this road w/other clients. If they start pushing you for filing, then I would stop them in their tracks and advise them that you are on a fact finding mission and want to know what you are entitled to and that if and when you decide to file, you will let him/her know. The lawyer I went with didn't push, but gently guided me along as I navigated my situation.

Make that list of questions you want answers to and start your search this week. Remember, you are the client and the lawyer is working for you!


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Good Morning K

The lawyer works for you. Find one you feel comfortable with. Trust your instincts. Do they sound competent, truthful, experienced? Or are they like a stereotypical used car salesman (not disrespect to any car sales personnel out there) promising you incredible riches and a quick resolution?

This is just business. You lawyer’s belief or knowledge of MLC is not a requisite for their services. The lawyer knows and understands the business of separation and divorce, the legal side, and ramifications of it. That is what you are paying for. Keep the business side business.

The people here know MLC and what you are going through. Post, vent, question, journal, tell of your accomplishments, tell of your falls - we’ve all been there. These are some very fine and compassionate folks with much hard earned and sage wisdom.

Originally Posted by Kindly
...how do I get them to understand the confusion and messed up timelines?

Just stick to the fact. Those are all that really matter in the courts anyhow.

Show the L the timeline of events. What and when. If you live in a place like me where it is no fault divorce then the why has absolutely no effect on any default rulings. However, if you do get into a negation with H, his desires can be leveraged for gains - like custody.

Us going on and on about our spouse to our lawyer just racks up chargeable hours. You can tell all that to a IC for a lot less than the lawyer hourly rate.

Maybe you’ll get lucky, my L was a flat fix fee. $4000 for a separation agreement; all the title investigation, mortgage transfers, bank accounts, credit cards, car ownership documents, house deed, homesteader release, pension, alimony, child support, etc.. and all the back and forth negotiating until a signed agreement or the need to go to court. After that point it would be $300/hour.

That is how my lawyer laid it out for me. Straight forward, no bull.

Document everything. Keep track of events, and bill payments, incomes, etc...

You are shopping for a lawyer and gaining information on your rights. Investigating the worst case, best case, and most likely case. You can pull the trigger later if needed; and you will know which L to go to.

DnJ


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Thank you both so much....reading your advice and experiences help to stop the swirling in my head.

Venting/ journaling ~ so after a full week of no eye contact, hiding in the basement and zero to no convo from H ...I feel as if I’ve made a mistake in detaching. I was supposed to go out last night part of GAL ...but my plans got cancelled and truthfully I physically wasn’t feeling well so I would have been pushing myself to go anyway...almost simultaneous to my plans being cancelled H asked if I wanted some food from a place we take out from...I didn’t answer right away but finally said sure. Food came, H stayed upstairs instead of retreating, we watched a movie (this hasn’t happened in weeks) then part way thru H got super sick...I didn’t know what to do. Leave him alone and ignore his suffering? I ended up bringing him water and asking if he was ok, checked on him a few times ...eventually he was feeling better and rejoined to watch the rest of the movie. He even thanked me for the good movie pick before leaving to go to bed. This morning he still feels like crap but we’ve had much more conversation then we’ve been having since this all started...current events, work, etc. Today and yesterday is the MOST NORMAL I’ve seen him since this all started. Major glimpses of the H I know.

Even though this was a one off incident I feel like I let him eat cake. Should I have just left him to take care of himself?

I know speculation will drive you nuts and I write all of this with ZERO expectations from him/ for me ....but could the last week of him retreating to his basement cave after handing me first steps in S papers be getting to him? It’s the first time I’ve agreed to get a L with no push back. He seems calm...I’m scared. Ha!

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Kindly,

You will see the normal H..only time will tell especially by his continued actions

Sometimes they have touch and gos...they get closer only to distance again

Keep expectations low and go about your daily life
no pressure
lots of space
busy new activities
fun

its ok to show concern and offer help to a person who feels ill...
just try not to mother him
He will have to get used to caring for himself

they are not sure if their decision is a good one
I think they check back to connect at times, but the crises will take them again
I would not read too much into it...

just watch from the distance as you go about your life


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Hello K

You did fine helping and checking on H when he was sick.

Yes, I can understand you feeling like you made a mistake in detaching. I assure you, you didn’t.

Detachment takes time to find and time to get used to. It’s just your feelings that are being questioned; you behaved detached. Remember detachment is when one’s feelings do not get dragged around by the antics or behaviour of their spouse. You are/were there - not uncontrollably dragged along.

Checking in on a sick person is fine. It is a compassionate thing to do. And like peace said, just don’t mother him, he needs to look after himself. Just like a teenager wants and needs too. Kind of ignoring, in a caring way.

H will surface and retreat as he walks his path. Keep moving forward.

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You did the right thing, i.e., checking on someone who is sick. That is not cake eating at all. That is being kind and considerate. Don't go all out and become a mother to him. If he's not feeling well today, you can ask how he's feeling, but then leave him to sleep and/or whatever he needs to do. You would have treated a roommate the same way, so no you did nothing wrong at all.

He's going to have moments of clarity and that is when he's going to act normal. It happens to all of them from time to time. Enjoy the moments that he's acting normal, but also keep those expectations dialed way back.

You did just fine.


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Thanks for all of the reassurance. It means so much. This week I will buckle down on the L stuff. Thanks for all of your help and kindness

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If you want to run some generic questions by us, we will be happy to help you w/them.


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Thanks so much Job. I’m sure I’ll be taking you up on that offer. grin

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Has anyone had any experience with their MLCr announcing to everyone (friends and family) right away that they are getting a S/D? With all of the reading I’ve done it seems like they more often keep this big announcement to themselves and only BD the LBS. I guess I’m asking because I’m having a rough couple of days and feel like I should just get this D over with and move on. He hasn’t waivered on what he wants and I don’t know if that’s because he’s confused or just honestly done with me.

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I’m pretty sure my H was telling people this in the month after BD. I wonder about this sometimes, because I see no evidence of outward wavering on this from him.


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K,

My W has told her parents and a couple of other people she is getting a D. Hasn't filed yet, but we are meeting with a mediator tomorrow to start the process. For me, I don't like the idea of being a sitting duck and waiting for her to file to put me on the defensive. If you believe D is just a piece of paper (as I now do), and your spouse seems as dug-in as mine appears to be, then you need to decide what is best for you in your situation.

It's a difficult decision, and I empathize with what you are going through.

Stay strong!

W

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My xh announced right away that we were separated. He was all giddy and excited about it. He couldn't wait to announce to the world that he was a free bird and could do whatever he wanted. Once he got the draft separation papers, he shut down and didn't say too much to people about it because he was then in a very angry mode.

Kindly, the situations that are posted here are very similar, but you have to keep in mind that each situation is very unique because of the MLCer involved. You can read the postings here, listen to the advice, but take away only what you think will help you in your situation.

Only you can decide what is best for you and your family and only you will know when you have had enough.


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Good Morning Kindly

Originally Posted by Kindly
Has anyone had any experience with their MLCr announcing to everyone (friends and family) right away that they are getting a S/D?

Oh yeah!

XW dropped the big surprise bomb at Thanksgiving Day supper. Me, our four kids, Oldest S’s GF, and parents all in shock as she announced her plan to through away her kids, house, her half of pension, everything. And two month later it was all done and legal.

Just focus on you and your kids. Let H be. If he is going to fast track, he will. If you need financial protection or security, deal with that issue.

You are early into this situation. I know how bad the feelings are. And even with everything all settled I still felt bad. Please realize a separation or divorce doesn’t fix/heal you. It didn’t fix/heal me either. Your healing is separate from S/D.

DnJ


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Thx Cardinal, WMLC, Job & DnJ

Originally Posted by WMLC
K,
For me, I don't like the idea of being a sitting duck and waiting for her to file to put me on the defensive. If you believe D is just a piece of paper (as I now do), and your spouse seems as dug-in as mine appears to be, then you need to decide what is best for you in your situation.

W


This helps and proves Jobs point about how unique each situation truly is whether it’s the MLCr or the LBS...I see and understand your POV WMLC but In my sitch I feel the exact opposite in that H stated at BD he didn’t have a voice and has never made decisions for himself ....so part of my journey and my standing is a firm no go on in anyway helping him to progress this along. I will comply ... it I will not lead ANYTHING.

My H was unstoppable and couldn’t wait to tell everybody either Job ... I’m disappointed in how some people just accepted his words as completely reasonable and on we go with life....

Job - can I ask why H went into angry mode if he drafted up the papers? is this just what mlcrs do?

Thx DnJ sorry to hear how very abrupt everything went for you.

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I also have a detaching question...I keep second guessing myself when it comes to certain things. For example: if I’m going grocery shopping do I ask him if he needs anything or just continue to shop for me and leave him be? In terms of house cleaning ...just leave his cave alone? Even tho it’s a deesasterrr!!
It just seems like such lines drawn...thanks for any advice.

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Grocery shop for you and leave him be. I don’t bother even asking if H’s eaten anymore. Cleaning I would say that if you want to clean his part for you own sake then go ahead. I am still doing my H’s laundry. I definitely do not prioritize it though. I think that if it upsets you to do something for him, then maybe you need to set a boundary. If you can be neutral on a task, then it’s really up to you whether you want to do it or not. Hope this helps. smile


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Kindly,

I can only "assume" the reason my xh got angry is because he didn't think I would call his bluff and get the draft papers drawn up. What was so funny is that I had them drafted up w/exactly what he wanted stated in them. From the time he received the draft separation papers until several years after the divorce, he was a nasty, angry person.

Some of them do get angry when presented w/papers because, in their minds, we will be right where they left us and that we would never, ever want a separation/divorce in place. They do not like to make decisions and heaven knows, some will stall and find excuses for not doing the work to get the legal matters taken care of.

They are very conflicted souls and only operate on emotions. Trust me, when dealing w/a MLCer and trying to get separation/divorce papers in place is not a "normal" process by any means.

You need to look at him as a roommate. You shop for yourself, you cook for yourself and do not clean his cave. If you haven't read HaWho's threads, please do so. They would help you with detachment and give you a better understanding of a live in MLCer.


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Thank you both...I will do some more reading tonight. I always feel so stuck when H asks If I want dinner. He’s cooking up a storm right now (which is a rarity, normally it’s spend spend spend and bring something in) and I know he’s going to ask if I want some. If I say no I feel like he will think I’m just being standoffish if I say yes it’s too close to cake eating ....no? These feel like kindergarten questions. I guess no one said this was easy. smile

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Think about what you want in the moment

If the food sounds good have some or take some for tomorrow and thank him

its not easy many of of totally stressed and walked on eggshells

put the focus on you
ask ...what can I do to take care of me?
a walk , a book, alone time, a nap, the gym, prayer and meditation, a plan with a friend?

be kind and friendly and cordial but go about your life


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My Xh was exactly like that as well, he told everyone about the D and seemed all happy and excited but the closer and closer it got the more he stopped talking about it and dragged his feet until I finally had to push it along just to finish it. Then no one knew once it became finalized, he stopped talking about it. Before once he had initiated it that’s all I heard was let’s get this done as quickly as possible, I can’t wait to get this divorce....but OW was in the picture then and once that wasn’t the case he wasn’t in a hurry to get it and even did things to try to delay it. My lawyer was even confused and said he’s the one who filed for this freaking divorce...it seems when they don’t have another person that’s when they can be civil and nice or seem like the old them a bit more but when they have someone, in my experience that is when monster is really really ugly. The D was final in July 2019 and he still cycles and tries to hurt me and cause drama any way possible. He did the cake eating for awhile as well until I wised up about that. It’s very hard and very painful but we just have to detach as best we can, pray and love ourselves more. I’m sorry you are going through this too. We are all going through it together and learning about this, ourselves and life and drawing nearer to God in the process.

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Hi, Kindly. How are you doing?


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Thank you all as always for reading my posts and sharing. &#10084;&#65039; (Heart)

Cardinal, thank you for checking in it really means sooo much. I’ve been spending a lot of time trying to figure myself out and also taking Jobs advice and reading HaWhos threads. I’m having a difficult time right now internally and find I’m putting on a happy face while not genuinely feeling happy and I don’t like that. I’m a very happy person with a wonderful sense of humour...it feels stifled.

At times I have such deep patience and other times none...with both the situation but more so myself. At times such deep understanding and other times I think this MLC is all in my head and he’s justified because we let life / jobs interfere with our M. But then I’m not a mind reader. I certainly wasn’t unhappy and had no idea he was.

I feel like he’s stolen my memories of how wonderful our R and M really was and is ... and I can’t get it back. I think this is what causes part of my sadness. I’m so early into this and have allowed his insecurities to cloud my brain.

When I’m strong I hear the knowledge from this site and I know he had to tell himself (and me) something to live with himself and justify his behaviour but if what he spewed at BD IS truly what he believes...(nothing to take care of w/ no kids, roommate relationship, and he has no voice therefore no reason to stay together). How does he ever change that line of thinking without growing up and having an adult conversation? <I know control myself>

H is behaving so normal right now. Still in the cave and ignoring me more than ever...yet when he does surface he speaks politely and mostly tells me where he’s going. I’m not complaining by any means because I know how much hell others go through with significant others leaving/returning or being secretive but it is still very confusing to me, plus it’s in my face when he’s here and not working a ridiculous amount of hours/days in a row.

I feel I’m craving a conversation, not to guide or control him or the situation but to get some truth bombs off of my chest.
I thought I was off the rollercoaster last week...today is a bad day.

Thanks for the vent session ....feeling slightly lost right now. The sadness is overwhelming at times.

Love to all.

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Hi, Kindly.

I could have written so much of this word for word myself! In fact, as you probably saw in my thread, I echoed some of your feelings there too. With H still in a more normal, friendly phase, I'm doubting myself more. I'm eight months into this but it honestly feels like the time has flown by. I'm not sure why... because I still appreciate every day he's in my life (well, most days!) and I'm not ready for that to change? Because I can see how much progress I've made in myself? That's part of it. I feel like a different person than before, in a good way. But this doesn't mean I'm not still on the rollercoaster some days.

Like you, I realize he had/has to tell himself what he needs to to justify his behavior, that where he's at right now, he can only see our M through a negative lens, and that clouds out all the good that was there. But some days my mind is more doubt and insecurity, and it's hard to see through it. This is just part of the process for us, too, I guess—being able acknowledge our spouse's feelings without taking all the responsibility/blame for how they feel. Trusting ourselves too.

Originally Posted by Kindly
I feel I’m craving a conversation, not to guide or control him or the situation but to get some truth bombs off of my chest.


Sometimes I imagine what it would be like to deliver some truth bombs. smile It's hard for me to accept there's no way he could fully empathize with me or see beyond his own point of view right now.

Well. It's a new day. A new week. How are you today?


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Thx Cardinal!
I’m better than the day before which is always a good thing. Crossed some things off my list day...just trying to finalize my $ disclosure and a L. Not fun stuff and I’ve certainly been procrastinating.

I feel a shift in how I’m thinking but it’s still not good enough in terms of achieving detachment. I can’t shake the need to have some sort of “are you sure this is what you want to do conversation” before starting the proceedings. There has been so much left unsaid between us. I want to tell him that it’s ok that he’s having a difficult time right now, or that I’m sorry I’ve obviously let him down ...but there are no words that seem to come out just right to say to someone that isn’t “there” right now. (And I’m pretty sure that’s bad DBing! Lol)
I want to tell him that we can come back from this...that it’s not too far gone...but again he’s living HIS life right now and there’s no room for me.
Some days I’m very good at letting go and GAL, but then others I’m plagued by the ‘sads’ and the piece of my heart that’s missing.

One.day.at.a.time.

How are you doing? I’m so proud of you and glad you ‘made a move’. So brave and a great 180!
I’ve often thought about doing that too but I’m fairly certain I’d be met with shark eyes! Lol

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This reminds me a little of the discussion on wayfarer's thread about how much of yourself to share, and may I think had some good points about when you might depart a bit from DBing but stay true to your beliefs. Maybe you can try writing out a fuller letter of everything you'd want to say if you held nothing back, just as an exercise. I did this a few times early on, but I realized I was writing to my old H, and, like you said, it's not the same as writing to someone who doesn't seem fully "there" right now. Maybe writing it out will help you separate what he does/doesn't know from what you just feel the need to make sure he knows again. He probably knows you think you can come back from this, right? That you don't think S or D has to be the answer. If it comes up, I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing to apologize for something specific you do feel like you need and want to take responsibility for.

There are so many strange, awful, hard parts of this, but one is feeling like the communication you had with your partner is gone, in my case at least, pretty much overnight. That easy, everyday conversation about whatever, and the deep conversations too. There is a lot unsaid! Some days lately I feel a bit powerful that I don't engage him first anymore—and that he's talking to me here and there anyway. That could change at any time. It used to be agonizing for me to sit in silence in the other room. But, yeah, some days I feel that missing piece of my heart, and it's too much.

Hugs, Kindly.


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Originally Posted by cardinal

There are so many strange, awful, hard parts of this, but one is feeling like the communication you had with your partner is gone, in my case at least, pretty much overnight. That easy, everyday conversation about whatever, and the deep conversations too.Hugs, Kindly.


So true! In such a short period of time I find myself asking “what the heck did we talk about pre- DB”. Convo seems so foreign.

Something I’m struggling with right now is disclosure in conjunction with detachment. For the most part H has been transparent as to where he is/ where he’s going...I believe that he is being truthful but obviously can never be 100% sure. How do I handle myself? H has been FULLY in the cave completely avoiding me...when I am going out and/or not coming home for a night do I disclose my plans and whereabouts to him ....esp if I’m not returning for the night? Or just go on about my business. I think my fear is that he will mirror my behaviour and stop telling me where he is going and I also feel like it’s further shutting down or serious lacking communication right now. BUT at the same time I’m GAL’ing and don’t feel like I want to disclose everything cause isn’t that part of detaching .... any advice?

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Hmm... I feel like the DB way would be to mirror him, but don't feel like you have to give him all the info. So if he is consistently telling you where he's going or when he'll be back when he leaves, you can similarly acknowledge to him that you're heading out, and meet politeness with politeness. But I don't think you're required to go into detail. A simple, Bye--I'm heading out and I'll be back tomorrow, could work. Or if you're going out for the night, something like, "Bye--have a good night!" You're going about your business but still treating him as you would a roommate. If it causes him to wonder what you're doing when you're out, well, fine.


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If you are just going out for the evening, I would just say, "I'm heading out...have a nice evening" and leave it at that.

However, if you are going out of town for a few days, you should probably tell him that you will out of town and that if something comes up, he can text/call you."

You do not have to get all wordy and provide lots of info as to what you are doing. You want him to wonder and be curious.

If he provide you w/info about his activities, thank him for the info and go on about your business.

Remember...he's a roommate at the moment and you've been fired as the spouse.


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I’m still exhausting myself at times with overthinking but the good thing is I’m not letting it show and I’ve remained very quiet and distant in his presence even though it feels extremely counterproductive.

Thank you both Job and Cardinal for reminding me to keep it simple ...I’m having a difficult time with not being too wordy. I’ve never had to “mind my words” or really even think this way ...as in being more calculated with what I’m disclosing and how I’m delivering it.

If I look inward I’m also letting fear take its grip as I mentioned above in the sense that I feel like he will start mirroring me by going out at night and not disclosing where he is going. I know we have to live our lives for us as a LBS but can we negatively influence H’s behaviour in this way? I feel like once he sees that overworking is not fulfilling his emptiness he’ll move onto something else anyway....how do I detach more??? I’m doing well but still not quite there.

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Kindly,

You can't control what he does, says or thinks. You can only control you and how you react to his behavior. Whether you tell him where you are going or not...well, there is no way to predict how he will react. Hence, I think you are over analyzing and focusing on the what if's. By doing so, are you walking on eggshells? If so, you need to step over those broken eggshells and reclaim YOU.

He's going to do whatever he needs to do to make himself feel better. Right now, you've been fired as his wife and friend. Treat him as you would a roommate, i.e., be polite, talk just a wee bit and go on about your business. If he wants to know something, he will ask you.

Keep the focus on you. Keep the focus on today and allow tomorrow to reveal itself when it is ready.


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Im not sure if we can really influence their choice..as I look back..I could not change what my H had in mind
Only time will tell

You can try different techniques and moniter his reactions
We never know what they will really do, but I can tell you as the Crises gets a grip of them
they go more into replay..then you will see first hand his craziness

So whether you go out or stay home...Im not sure it will have a huge impact



We DB for us
and part of it is GAL , making new plans and activities
new friends
exercising
volunteering gardening
church or spiritual l things ect... for us

The only way we really know is with time
Some Mlcers seem to come around over time--some never
But we have no where to really go except forward facing the crises head on--healing
and letting the chips fall where they may

And having no regrets because we did our part


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Originally Posted by job
Hence, I think you are over analyzing and focusing on the what if's. By doing so, are you walking on eggshells? If so, you need to step over those broken eggshells and reclaim YOU.

Thx Job. I am the queen of over analyzing and I hate suspense! Lmao! So you can well imagine that those are two strong focuses for me in learning how to just let things be and as you said unfold. The good thing is I feel like I have stopped walking on eggshells and really am focusing on reclaiming MY life...I play sports, go out with many different groups of friends and have picked back up all of my hobbies. I really find with me that the strong days are more numbered now than the weak ones, but when a weak days surface boy does it get a grip on me and I spiral...hence the above worrying, fear and over analyzing. Coming onto this board and venting or just writing what you feel at the time no matter how silly truly helps when people like yourself chime in with the reality checks and strong advice. So thank you so much.
Originally Posted by job
Keep the focus on you. Keep the focus on today and allow tomorrow to reveal itself when it is ready.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. !!!!! Xoxoxo
Originally Posted by peacetoday

But we have no where to really go except forward facing the crises head on--healing
and letting the chips fall where they may

And having no regrets because we did our part

This is great peacetoday. For a very long time from BD until very recently I kept feeling like there was something I wasn’t doing, like I was missing some action that I needed to take care of, that if I didn’t act on something I was part of the problem or things were going to fall apart immediately. Most recently I began to realize that I was feeling that way because of how quick my H BD’d, moved out, moved back, moved into basement, got an agent to look at the house etc etc .... my head was spinning while I was quite honestly just trying to breath. I was also focusing on his crisis and what bomb was going to go off next.
As I learn to “face the crisis head on and do my best to let the chips fall where they may” I’m finding a new peace within myself. A HUGE part of that is no matter what way this goes I have KINDLY done my part and will have no regrets.
Thank you xo

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Hi, Kindly. I also tend to overanalyze and plan, plan, plan. I'm finding some comfort in noticing how well I'm able to control my reactions now. Do you feel this way too? Like, okay, I clearly can't control the situation, but look, I'm controlling myself! And I love what you say about knowing you'll have KINDLY done your part with no regrets. I really admire that!


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Hello Kindly

It is very nice to see you are having more strong days than weak ones. And you are so right, posting here, asking questions, venting, helps so much.

Originally Posted by Kindly
If I look inward I’m also letting fear take its grip as I mentioned above in the sense that I feel like he will start mirroring me by going out at night and not disclosing where he is going. I know we have to live our lives for us as a LBS but can we negatively influence H’s behaviour in this way?

It’s good you see your fear taking its grip. It’s a first and necessary step to get passed your fear.

It is a common occurrence, and an interesting one - we usually see the negative and fearful side first.

You fear negatively influencing H. You could just as well positively influence H. Treating him kindly, like a roommate. Giving him time and space. And so on is not negative.

However, H is going to do whatever H is going to do. I do believe in our influence, it just acts very very slowly. And some MLCers are really stubborn and angry.

So you live, as you said, for yourself. GAL, focus on you, detach, and grow and move forward. Be compassionate. Become the best Kindly you can be. Now, if there is an influence to be had, wouldn’t it be positive?

You are doing very well. You are finding that peace within yourself and becoming centred. Keep at it. And keep accumulating more and more strong days.

DnJ


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Cardinal - I do see a difference in how I’m able to control my reactions. I was def a wet noodle with sauce between my ears when BD occurred and for several months after BD, mainly consumed by fear and confusion. But even just this week I see how my reactions and feelings have become more stable and I’m not a scared little mess anymore.

Thx DnJ for your kind words of encouragement...it really helps esp since I’m very hard on myself. It’s nice to hear that Based on my writings you feel that I’m doing well.

Update: H has been away for the week again on work assignment. Prior to him leaving he had moved deeper into his basement cave and ceased all communication and 100% avoids me. He did however manage to ask if I have a lawyer right before he left. (I have one more consult then I’ll choose one) which I told him I will have to him by the end of next week. He asked me a couple of weeks ago to do the $disclosure. I have started but I’m also doing it properly so it’s taking me awhile to complete. (His is a mess and very incomplete) Keep In mind he has never wavered and wants everything done yesterday so he can get the money out of the house to leave (so he says). H works a very good job and could leave whenever he wants.
Anyway, I had to ask for some cc statements and H refuses to give them to me. Says the card is not joint (which it is) therefore I don’t need to see it. WELL this started the ball rolling ... angry messages asking if I “hacked” into OUR account... I zinged him with a truth dart and said “why would it be hacking if it’s my account too?” A day and a half later he responds with a message saying I asked you to get a lawyer months ago if you don’t want to go to court get one soon. Meanwhile he’s left his entire business off disclosure and has moved around $$$ and spent like crazy.
H seriously doesn’t realize that HE will Be the reason this goes to court.

Could the anger I’m seeing be from me “being ok” with starting the process? Or me GAL? I’m hardly home and come home late from visiting friends or playing my sports. Maybe he does care? But don’t worry ZERO expectations!!!

Lastly, I’m going away for a few days and struggled with what to do a few posts ago in regards to telling him. I had planned on casually saying face to face “I’m out of town for a few days” but I won’t see him before I go cause he didn’t come home. Im sorry to be overthinking this ....but do I go out of my way to send a text to let him know I’m gone for a few days ? I’m struggling because I don’t want to disclose where I’m going ( I want him to wonder a little) but I also don’t want to lie or give him a reason to lash out at me. I feel a little stuck.

Thx for any additional input.

Devote tomorrow to loving yourself more!

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If you are on a joint credit card, you can call the credit card company and request a copy of the charges at any time. They may even give you a link to where you can go to review the charges. I wouldn't ask him about it again, just work around him on that one.

He's angry because he sees that you can take care of yourself. He's angry because he can't control you and yes, you are asking questions about things that he doesn't want you to know about. He wants you to be blind to all of the finances and you know....knowledge is power. They get angry at everything. He could be angry about something at work, crossing the sidewalk, someone cutting him off in traffic. It may not even be you that he is angry with. He'll settle down again and act like nothing ever transpired. They are just emotional wrecks.

I would text him and let him know you are going to be out of town for a couple of days and leave it at that. You would do the same if you had a roommate. Go on your trip and have a good time.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Hi, Kindly. I hope you don't feel too pressured by H. The way I see it, if he is dying to leave, he can go, you know? You aren't purposely trying to stall anything; you are just operating on a less emotionally-driven timeline. Like Job says, it's probably another way he's realizing he can't control you. I think it's great if you can continue to remain calm when he seems to be spinning out like this. You're strong! You've got this!

Have a wonderful time away! And let me know if you do make cinnamon rolls at some point in the future. smile


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(Also, I just came across this quote from MWD in the Nuggets from Veterans thread, and I thought it might be helpful for you, too. I'll come back to it whenever I feel like I need another form of reassurance...)

Originally Posted by Michele

Tim,
I share your feeings about the "I love you but I'm not in love with you anymore," or something like that syndrome. It's exasperating.

But I don't think it's as confusing as you do. Love is a decision. It's not just a feeling. In order to maintain love over time, you have to decide each morning to do the things that will bring you close to your spouse and stop doing things that push you further away. You need to spend time together. YOu need to listen to each other, talk, make love, show interest in your spouse's life. Love is a decision to do all these things even when you aren't feeling crazy about your spouse. Love is a commitment.

So when one person says, "I don't love you anymore," what s/he is saying is "I don't feel like putting energy into this marriage." "I'm going to focus on all the bad times we've had and that will make me feel distant from you." "If I feel distant and separate from you, I can focus on me and make myself happy." It really is a decision to cut oneself off from positive feelings about the marriage.

If you've had good times together in your marriage, those memories don't just disappear. They live within us. However, sometimes when people burn out in a marriage, they bury those good feelings and memories so deep, it almost seems as if they're not there anymore. People convince themselves that the loving feelings have evaporated. They sometimes even tell themselves that they never loved you in the first place. This allows them to pull away. IT's a rationalization. But it's a rationalization that really hurts when you are the receiver of it.

So I understand your feelings. But you need to remember that whatever you feel in your heart about your marriage is real. Your wife's current perspective is colored by her need to pull away right now. Don't over-react and whatever you do, stop trying to point out to her that she isn't thinking clearly or seeing things accurately. That will only make her more certain she doesn't love you. And I know you don't want that.

Keep DBing and hang in there.
Michele


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Thank you guys for the support. I sent the text and expected a million questions but why would that happen when he’s so self absorbed??? After all that worrying I got back “ok I’ll be away too.” Good lesson for me here. Thx job ...it must be frustrating sometimes to have us LBSs circle in the same spots of fear, sometimes too close to the situation to see the light.
Love the quote Cardinal I will screen grab that one. Thank you. And I 100% let you know if I make the rolls ...my nephew and brother would love them!!
Enjoying myself on my 4 day get away...then back to reality and meeting with hopefully my last L who I will like and can then hire.
Also job I called the cc company and would you believe that because H is the primary I can’t request anything on his card which we used most often...if I can’t get it I’ll just have to go,through the L.

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Back from vacation and feeling like a mess. Wow this situation is tougher when you’re not feeling well...on antibiotics and feeling some major self pity amidst the head / throat pain. Feel like I can’t get a break.

I’m allowing myself to panic because I told H, after his not so nice email last week, that I would have a L name to him by end of this week. Obviously that appt was cancelled and I’m stupidly lying her letting his “speculated” response drive me nuts and cause feelings of fear. I believe truth is the only policy here and H will have to react how he reacts. I may get a chance to use a validation phrase ...perhaps “I’m sorry you feel this way” What about “I’m sorry it appears like I’m moving slower than you’d like”? I wrote the second one because I feel like it’s ‘wrong’ ... I’m assuming/projecting that’s how he feels....I’m trying to learn how to keep emotion and “fixing the way H thinks” out of my responses. Am I correct in my analysis?

I feel like I’m letting him sit in the drivers seat still running towards a S or D that I still don’t feel he’s done the proper work for ...disclosure wise ...never mind mentally lol! I know this will all become clearer once I meet with this last L, show her D’s papers and ask some better questions this time. I just feel so uneducated and lost in this process.

I also know I’m trying to fast forward (get rid of the suspense) of how this is going to play out....will I be able to keep the house? Do I want to keep the house? How will the finances work out? How will I know what decisions to make for me? How do I control the fear of the unknown? I’m trying so hard to just let things be and take one day, one hour at a time.

Feeling physically weak is not helping my mental state. Thanks for reading.

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Hello Kind

Sorry you’re feeling sick. There is lots going around.

“I’m sorry you feel that way.”, is just fine. You can add to the end, “I’m sick and couldn’t sort out the lawyer.”, if you want.

Originally Posted by Kindly
I may get a chance to use a validation phrase ...perhaps “I’m sorry you feel this way” What about “I’m sorry it appears like I’m moving slower than you’d like”? I wrote the second one because I feel like it’s ‘wrong’ ... I’m assuming/projecting that’s how he feels....I’m trying to learn how to keep emotion and “fixing the way H thinks” out of my responses. Am I correct in my analysis?

I understand how it feels wrong; such a short sentence. However, that is how you keep emotion and “fixing the way H thinks” out of your responses.

Your proposed response is assuming he feels that you are moving slower than you think he’d like you too.

I personally like the first, it’s short and simple. The real beauty part is it’s true. You are sorry for how he feels. And the other nice part, you actually don’t project or say what he is feeling - you just acknowledge and validate it.

One other little thing. “I’m sorry you feel that way.” Instead of “...feel this way”. Past tense vs present tense.

“This” is now and present and therefore more in need of discussing and defending on H’s part. Something present is alive and more moves towards the future.

“That” acknowledges directly what he said. It places it in the past; a small and unnoticed thing, yet it is less likely to be brought up since it is in the past. Also using “that” limits reinforcement of his emotions.

Originally Posted by Kindly
I also know I’m trying to fast forward (get rid of the suspense) of how this is going to play out....will I be able to keep the house? Do I want to keep the house? How will the finances work out? How will I know what decisions to make for me? How do I control the fear of the unknown? I’m trying so hard to just let things be and take one day, one hour at a time.

Oh boy, lots of questions aren’t there?

Don’t worry answers do come. A discussion with L will help with a lot of the unknown regarding possible and probably financial outcomes.

“How do I control the fear of the unknown?” You can control your thoughts and actions. These influence your feelings. Together they uncouple the fear from possible future events. Then the fear response has nothing to latch on to, no reinforcement, so it withers. You don’t control fear - you come at it sideways and influence it. I can expand more if you like.

Have a nice bowl of soup. And I hope you feel better soon.

DnJ


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Last edited by job; 02/29/20 02:08 PM. Reason: added link to new thread

Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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