Peace and joy continue to beckon

[job]

Yes, I highly recommend Terrence Real's book too. It was a real eye opener.

[Grace21]

OwnIt -

I appreciate you weighing in. The condo was addressed as soon as he bought it. He is joint tenants with the OW, so equal shares. The amount of money he took to pay for his share, I took in cash and have it in a bank account under my name only. So, financially, according to my attorney, that is a wash. When we met last week, he told me he had already consulted an attorney on ways to get out of it. He seems to think that part is easy. Its the h*** she will rain down when it all blows up he is more worried about, I think. To be truthful, I am not worried so much about the finances, but more about how not doing anything would be perceived by H (i.e. I have decided to wait to be plan B). I think that's where my GAL activities will continue to be very important.

As far as his history, that's definately going to have to be addressed. There are a lot of components to it, and believe me, I haven't overlooked it or forgotten it. Over time, depending upon his actions, progress, our progress, and his motivation, I will introduce the things that are deal breakers. But, now is not the time. At this point I am just glad he finally reached out to a therapist, and has finally (maybe in all the 30 years I've know him), opened up to a level he never has before.

And my D20 is at the top of my list, for sure. I won't jeopardize my relationship with her. But, my hope is that they will some day be able to repair and build a better relationship.

So, lots and lots of components.

I am going to look into that book.

Grace

[Gerda]

Grace, could you do a legal separation and/or a post-nup so you get the protection and financial separation you need without rushing the divorce, if you don't feel sure about the divorce itself? You certainly need to set some financial boundaries.

The only thing -- would it be better for you not to be tied to his debts? I think you need a divorce for that.

I think you are walking the fine line between choosing and letting God be God. It's hard to know. Just keep asking yourself, what are the fruits of this choice I am considering?

If you did ever want to consider reconciliation, maybe you can have separate households for a long while and you can date for some years while the healing and repairing is going on for each of you and with your kids. Despite what we learned these past years in Rejoice, I am not sure that it is always a good idea to have that "suddenly" return to the household they are always advising. I think if your kids are that damaged, you have to stand for your family first, and I don't think it's a bad thing to be faithful from afar, it seems necessary for some men to have to work slowly on themselves and the marriage, but it's hard to say, everyone's sitch is so different.

Have you heard of Retroueville? If it gets to a point where you would consider reconciling, that seems like a pretty amazing support.

But for sure -- remember, it is an honor if people mock you if you are living the life God asks you to live. No one has to understand you as long as God does.

Most importantly, here is a big Gerda hug for my dear friend in both the virtual and real world -- ((((((Grace)))))))

[Grace21]

Gerda -

Nice to hear from you. You have pointed out a few things I am considering. I have briefly discussed a post-nup with the attorney, and it will be on the table when H and I meet. Luckily we have no debts, so no worries there. Except a small amount on my car and the house. I would, however, put in a post-nup or whatever document that any debts occured since our separation are our own.

One thing I am sure about, he is not coming to my home any time soon. An I realize it may be never. I think if we have any chance at all, it will be a from scratch, new relationship. If there is one thing I discovered on this journey, I deserve a healthy, fulfilling relationship, and will expect it.

But for sure -- remember, it is an honor if people mock you if you are living the life God asks you to live. No one has to understand you as long as God does.

Yes. Jesus has taught us that those who follow him will be persecuted. He gives us the strength to withstand it, though, doesn't He? I continually pray that I am following His guidance to live the life He meant for me. I will continue to
do so.

Grace

[DnJ]

Hello Grace

You are not a fool for standing nor a fool if you were ever to reconcile.

Anyway, I guess gossip and snickers behind my back wouldn’t hurt me. Maybe I don’t really care what people think. I certainly don’t want that feeling to drive any of my decisions.

Excellent! Don’t let feelings, especially ones influenced by narrow minded and misguided people who have no idea what it is like to walk in your shoes, drive your decisions.

I’ll also add, it is surprising just how little other people actually gossip about you. It feels different, but other people have their lives and those that would gossip turn their fickle attention to others rather quickly when faced with a strong willed and emotionally stable person.

Of course it’s more your feelings that are stirring and matter. You are doing much considering which is good.

The financial agreement is weighing heavy on my mind too. I want H to know I’m not just sitting around waiting for him to figure his life out. Waiting for him to leave her so he can come back to me. Will the document change anything?

Two separate things going on here.

The financial agreement is weighing heavy on my mind too. Will the document change anything?

Not really.

The business side. Non emotional.

You know the advice - Let the MLCer do the heavy lifting unless you need financial security or protection. Neither of those, to date, have been an issue or concern. That could change, and you can deal with that then.

An actual document would formally split your assets, that’s about it. From the business side.

And unless you are wanting to marry someone else there isn’t a legal need either.

Emotional side. Yeah, that always different.

I want H to know I’m not just sitting around waiting for him to figure his life out. Waiting for him to leave her so he can come back to me.

Why?

Why do you want/need H to know?

You are not sitting around waiting. He sees it!

You were very clear that there are steps between OW and you. That several things had to happen before you would even consider anything. He even acknowledged that. Grace, he knows.

I get that you feel you want to ensure he knows. Maybe it is like rubbing it in his face. A perfectly normal and understandable response. And based on emotions. Don’t let your emotions influence your beliefs and thoughts too much. Let those feelings wither, they don’t serve you. Beliefs, follow those.

I know you are living a great life.

Your stand I think is much like mine. Started for your spouse, then M, and now you stand for you.

Standing really starts when you’re healed enough to stand down. And when you’re healed the focus is placed differently. IMO, it’s placed upon values and beliefs you hold dear, not people or relationships. The focus is you, and standing for you.

If you are questioning continuing the path towards separation and divorce - I would listen to that. You have the gift of time, and no need to rush. Continue living fully and let H demonstrate where and what he is doing. You didn’t slam the door shut for a reason.

Does that make me the OW now?

The road to a possible reconciliation is a strange one. From what I’ve read and imagine my XW would be like, yes the LBS becomes a OP in the relationship between the WAS and their OP. These MLCers / WAS / crisis people are not cured at this time. They are maybe awakening a bit. They have choices to make, a history to face, and things to atone for.

The LBS need patience and compassionate indifference. Their deservedly bedraggled spouse/ex-spouse will make mistakes and still need growing up. This is when your inner work really shines out from your lighthouse.

Live your values and beliefs. Live your light. H is watching. If your light speaks to him, he will do what he needs to do.

For myself, I will not be an affair in XW and OM relationship. I would suspect I would be viewed as a OM by OM, and a EA from XW’s viewpoint. That EA would remain an EA and not become a PA. My boundary. If she is with OM, she’s not with me.

Of course that is well beyond my current situation. I am a single man just living his life. I have considered lots and found my peace and acceptance. You are currently engaged in something still theoretical in my life.

Hope has no timeline.

Some of the first advice we ever receive is focus on you. That counterintuitive wisdom heals you and gives you the best chance at a future reconciliation. Which I honestly believe is possible for you. What do you want?

Find and follow your beliefs. Regrets will be far less.

DnJ

[Grace21]

Nice weekend wrapping up. Spent Friday night at friends for appetizers, some wine, and Jenga. Last night 2 girlfriends over for an Asian meal prepared by yours truly, more wine, and good conversation while working on a puzzle. Today started with church, as usual on a Sunday. Then I dug out a huge root ball and lots of plants in an area I want to re-landscape, and sawed down a huge branch while D20 held the ladder for me so I didn’t kill myself. I then hand sawed about 8 or 10 nice pieces of wood I’m saving for the next camping trip with D20. I love being productive like that! It was very satisfying, and I didn’t think about H once during all that hard labor! Bonus!!!

Soon I’ll head out to a Super Bowl party with my friend at her brothers house. I’m like part of the family now. To be perfectly honest, I don’t even know who is playing. I’m going for the food, commercials, and maybe another glass of wine! (no, I’m not a lush, LOL)
*****************************

The financial agreement is weighing heavy on my mind too. Will the document change anything?

Not really.

The business side. Non emotional.

You know the advice - Let the MLCer do the heavy lifting unless you need financial security or protection. Neither of those, to date, have been an issue or concern. That could change, and you can deal with that then.

An actual document would formally split your assets, that’s about it. From the business side.

And unless you are wanting to marry someone else there isn’t a legal need either.

Emotional side. Yeah, that always different.

I'm putting a lot of thought into this. A lot. Perhaps that is a problem for me. You are correct, DnJ when you remind me that to date, I don't really have a financial problem that must be dealt with. The one time I did, I took care of swiftly and decisively (the condo purchase and taking equal $ for to save in my own account). And you are also correct that the legal side in not a worry unless there is someone else in my picture, or, I might add, that I know I am 100% ready for D.

Something I realized this week. H has not clearly said he doesn’t want a divorce, he’s willing to do the work, and he is leaving OW and wants to see if we can work it out. Bits and pieces have come out here and there, but never a clear statement.

Why do I want one? Do I want one, or is this just an observation? TBH, I am fighting expectations a bit. I think that is in part because I am spending too much time on mulling this over.

On looking back at our conversations last week, he in fact got a little huffy after our meeting in that it’s clear I want a D so just give him a number for the pension. I had responded is it really that clear to you? Because it wasn’t to me. There was a lot of very deep insights and words exchanged, and it ended with him writing:

“Well there was a glimmer of hope for me somewhere in this note and here it is. I’m working on killing the demons and figuring out how to extricate myself from my current situation. I love you still. I always will.”
This week H informed me he had an appointment with the therapist. Afterwards, he sent me an email:

“Well, first session is what it is. Kind of getting to know you thing. I know this will be a long-term thing……..I’m covering a lot of the same ground we covered with (our therapist) and to some extent what I covered 10 years ago (with another therapist. So we shall see. I set up another for next week.”

I was a bit surprised that he updated me. I responded:

“I really appreciate you feeling free to let me know how it went. Yes. You will have to rehash quite a bit, but I hope you don’t mind me saying that perhaps she (the T), will be the one to help you free yourself from a cycle that never seemed to make you happy.”

H: “Well that is the goal, isn’t it? [smile face]. I’m ready to get real”.

I realize that I am impatient. I need to regroup and get back to my life, and not worry about his or a potential future us.

H and I have a tentative plan to see each other in a week to discuss my expressed desire to still have a legal document in place.

So, the question is: What do I want to change for the time being going forward? What is it I’m trying to accomplish? I will need to be clear on the why if I feel I need one. For myself more so than for H. Here are some possibilities:

1. I want to keep the pressure on for H to show action, not just words. But, things to consider include: Pressure or no pressure won’t fix anything. In fact pressure could very well be the worst thing for me to do. This all has to come from H’s desire to work on himself, change, and then do the work for reconciliation if that is what he, I, we really wants. And he did take action this week. Meeting #1 with therapist under his belt. So, there’s that.

2. I want to have basic financial protections legal in case he does decide to disappear. For example, include alimony, splitting any kids expenses 50-50, freezing any withdrawals (for him and me) from our 401K, get my car in my name alone, and if he continues to stay on the house deed, share expenses for home improvement projects. This could be done with a “post-nuptual” agreement. I would imagine I could even draft something up and we can get it notarized.

Mmmm. Writing it out like this, #2 seem more in line with my needs at the moment.

Some of the first advice we ever receive is focus on you. .

I definitely need to get back to that in a major way.

That counterintuitive wisdom heals you and gives you the best chance at a future reconciliation. Which I honestly believe is possible for you. What do you want?

If I am truthful? I want reconciliation. But not with the old H, for sure.

Find and follow your beliefs. Regrets will be far less.

The last thing I want to do is make decisions before I am ready and be filled with regret for the rest of my life. That sounds like a prison to me. So I will get on with life and see what happens.

Time will bring answers.

Grace

[DejaVu6]

Wow Grace!!! Just wow!!! Your attitude and patience are admirable. You are truly in the driver’s seat of your own life and I hope it feels as good as it reads. IMO...no rush to do anything. The ball is in his court. I don’t think you need to apply any pressure whatsoever. Just keep on keeping on and let him do what he feels he needs to do. I suspect that IF the two of you decide to make a go of it, M 2.0 will be very, very different. (((HUGS)))

[OwnIt]

Grace, I do think you are thinking about it too much. You really don't have a decision to make right now. He is a talker and is sharing emotion, but when has that not been the case? I think you have to discount all the words and only look at the actions.

1. Seeing the therapist (great);
2. Telling you about the visit with the therapist (great);
3. Still hasn't left the OW (not great).

You do such a great job when you turn your attention to yourself and you are showing him the marvelous picnic you are having. Who wouldn't want to be at that picnic? What else do you need to do to hold the carrot out for him? Getting yourself wrapped up in what-ifs that haven't materialized and feeling the need to keep pressure and worrying about pressure--too much H focus. Focus on Grace and the picnic.

Get the post-nup done. If you guys reconcile and don't want it anymore you can rip it up. Don't file for a divorce you don't want. The post-nup will remind him that you can move forward at any time and it will be good to negotiate it while he is feeling kind toward you. If that changes or he doesn't follow-though, you will have it.

I made OD sign a post-nup 10 years ago regarding retirement. I would have paid him a huge amount of money without it. Literally the only smart decision I made with him. Don't do it yourself. The law can be odd and require lots of disclosures in this area. I made OD sign ours 4 times over multiple weeks (because he wouldn't see an attorney and I didn't want him to claim duress).

[DnJ]

Hello Grace

The weekend sounds great. Wine, Jenga, and sawing down tree limbs while standing atop a ladder. Then more wine at a Super Bowl party!!! Sounds delushous!

You have really good questions and observation regarding the possible D and your feelings, thoughts, and beliefs. Answers will present themselves.

For what it’s worth #2 is pretty smart; very business like. You just need to figure out if or when you want/need to proceed.

If I am truthful? I want reconciliation. But not with the old H, for sure.

That is one of the clearest statement of your desires you’ve wrote. There is something powerful about writing that out. It’s beyond thoughts and feelings. This is deep values and conviction territory. Casting off fear, and embracing you.

Putting that into written form elevates that hopeful desire within. You are imagining what it could be. And in seeing that, know what requisites H has to meet. It is a point where you can assess your headings and goals; are they inline with your wants?

Keep a hopeful desire. You mentioned it, I will affirm and encourage - keep expectations at zero. A deadline or timeline will kill hope and create resentment from your own desires. Time is your friend not an adversary.

As you well know, time will bring answers.

I agree with DV, you are very much in the driver’s seat of your life. I see your “cars” lined up rather nicely.

DnJ

[Gerda]

That sounds like a prison to me. So I will get on with life and see what happens.

Time will bring answers.

Grace

EXACTLY! A prison! We can't fix our circumstances or know what will happen,but we can refuse to be imprisoned by despair, revenge, foggy thoughts, bitterness, while it's happening.

(And I can tell you one thing, I would be so thrilled if I got reports of trouble in OW paradise. That must be really satisfying, no matter what happens. We are still women with hearts, after all!)

Time -- how God gives answers for sure. I like how you worked out what is really necessary here and what you really and truly want. I think your post nup approach is a great idea for now, to get you what you need without the other things you aren't sure about.

I think your H sounds wounded and raw, and that is a good thing. He needs to plow that earth to get it ready for planting. Rushing the planting will ensure no harvest, and I don't know if there will be a harvest at all, but it sounds like it's worth letting him plow his own field, and, if he keeps asking, to give him a packet of seeds to plant, and then to wait and watch to see if he can put in the slow time/work of watering, watching,waiting, watering, sunlight....

Those who sow in tears shall reap rejoicing! I pray that one a lot and try to really believe that it's a promise from God. In my case, I don't think that harvest is going to be a restored M anymore. But I am open to whatever the harvest is. In your case, a restored M sounds a lot more likely but either way, your H needs to plow and sow on his own!

XO