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#2876194 12/15/19 03:36 AM
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Hi, there. I’m almost exactly 6 months post-BD and maybe a year into what seems like my H’s MLC. Still living as roommates in the home we’ve rented for 7 years, though he’s gone 98% of the time living his “new life.” We were married 10 years in November, have known each other for 16. I started DBing a week and a half after the BD, and I’ve been visiting this board off and on since. It’s been a great source of support, but this is my first time posting. I expect divorce papers to arrive at the beginning of the year, and I’m having trouble lately not being sucked in to my H’s rewriting of our history so that it’s all negative. I’m having trouble maintaining my own sense of reality. I wasn’t sure whether to post this in the Newcomers section or MLC. This is so long; I apologize! It’s so hard to summarize and I know I’m leaving stuff out.

Upfront, one thing I’m wondering: does anyone here have experience with MLCers seeing counselors? Is that a potentially hopeful thing in the long run for their coming through the crisis?

Marriage/BD: This summer I’d been noticing anger and distance in my H even as we were talking about where we’d want to go for a 10th anniversary trip we’d decided to take, so I asked him what was up. His answer was a shock to me but followed the script many of you are familiar with—he’s been unhappy for a long time, cares about me but doesn’t love me, believes that I only want to make changes only now that he’s threatening divorce. He also said he doesn’t know who he is at home anymore. There was the script, but there were also issues, I knew, we needed to work on in our marriage, including intimacy and communication, and we were finally talking about them. He was open to trying marriage counseling at first but said he thought we had a 4% chance of making it. A couple days later, he kissed me and said he was trying. The first therapist I found with an opening wanted us to come in for an in-person consult—right before we walked in to the appointment, H told me he felt it was pointless and didn’t mean what he’d said when he kissed me and said he was trying. He said he was just in a good mood that night. I was crushed. Appt. was a terrible experience—therapist just let us repeat everything we’d already said to each other during/after BD. I think it confirmed for him counseling would be pointless. We had a couple of other phone consults with other Cs that week, one that came recommended from some married friends of his and also recommended by other marriage counselors. We both liked her, but he said his mind was made up, counseling wouldn’t help us. I suggested we both try individual C—I let him stick with that counselor since I doubted he’d follow through otherwise, and I found my own, and started working with a DB-style coach as well.

Read The Divorce Remedy and started DBing that next week. In C I’ve really focused on understanding his POV and taking responsibility for my contributions to the state of our marriage, including lack of sex (and my shame surrounding that) and defensiveness. The first thing my C said was: These things are totally workable and are things that so many couples struggle with—he just needs to be on board!

About H: A few things I think are essential to understanding H and our sitch now. As long as I’ve known him, he’s defined himself as a perpetually happy person—nothing can get him down. It’s a point of pride for him, and everyone around him knows this. I used to think this was such an amazing way to live, always positive, always choosing to be happy no matter what. I absolutely believed him. And then a few years ago his mom had a kind of breakdown where we were worried about her stability for a while, and it came out that she’d struggled with depression and anxiety her whole life and had never told him. He became even more afraid of upsetting her. I started to see that she’d always done what he’s done—put on a happy face, act like nothing is wrong. His role has always been to do anything to make her happy, even if it went against his own feelings. His mom and dad divorced when he was young, and his dad doesn’t have much of a role in his life. They maybe talk a couple of times a year on the phone, and we always spend Christmas with his mom and dad—they’ve remained friends, and everyone has always remarked on how strange it is that they get along. I now wonder if there’s more to the story there. Is he sad that he doesn’t have a relationship with his dad? “Naaah, my dad’s weird. What can you do?” That was his response to anything that might mess with his happy outlook—“Naah, what’re you gonna do? I choose to be happy.”

One other thing is that he’s always said he’s good at not thinking about things until he “has” to—he compartmentalizes like no one I’ve ever known, and he would tell anyone this as well. Example: When we were dating in college, I broke up with him, we stayed friends, and a few months later I told him I’d realized I still loved him. But he’d started dating someone else. When we got back together a year or so later, he wrote me a letter that said he’d been in so much pain when I broke up with him. He convinced himself I would never love him again, then stayed busy and ran away from thinking about us until he couldn’t do that anymore.

Post-BD:
More and more I’ve begun to understand how the BD was the culmination not only of a marriage crisis but a personal crisis for H: if you’ve always staked your identity on being a genuinely happy, carefree person, and suddenly you realize you do have feelings of sadness and anger and unhappiness like everyone else, how do you cope? Who are you?

MLC? The last 6 months have been a rollercoaster—some days he’s warm and treats me like a distant friend, some days he offers me food or candy, which we always used to share. Most days he’s cold and shut down and makes me feel like a stranger. He’s become a stranger in a lot of ways to me and our friends—he was always a guy who said he couldn’t wait to get old, looked down on people our age who partied, loved staying at home and cooking and baking, loved our cats like children, loved our chickens and spent months building a coop for them last summer. He’s accused the only mutual friend of ours he’s kept of interrogating him. When she asked him what he imagined his life would be like after divorce, he said he’s not thinking about it. He’s ignored texts from our good friends, a couple who we’ve known for ten years, and who have a toddler he adored. He’s found new friends and stays out until midnight or 3 am, drinking a lot of the time. For months I’ve taken over all the house stuff, all the pet stuff. He maybe cooks something for himself once a month. He spends money like we have it—I think since June he’s bought 8 pair of shoes, lots of new clothes, and pocketknives.

With the help of my db coach, I’d been working on an apology letter for months, a letter that focused on acknowledging his pain and taking responsibility for my failures in our marriage. I gave it to him at the end of October, not expecting it to change anything, but of course hoping it might.

The weekend before Thanksgiving, he left me a letter saying he was planning to file for divorce, that he couldn’t be the kind of happy he wanted to be with me, and that we could talk in person about it if I wanted. The next day I was home, but he’d conveniently been out drinking until the early morning hours and slept until noon, when I had to leave for work. We did talk that night, the first R talk since June, and what surprised me is that he sounded sad. He said on paper we’re perfect, but all his (new) friends say we aren’t fixable. He doesn’t know if he could fall in love with me again. I tried to validate and listen—I respect his view and desire for divorce, I said, even if I don’t agree with it. He said he thinks we should be able to come to an agreement ourselves, even though I brought up mediation. In his view, we’ve been communicating just fine since June, even though he’s barely spoken to me. He said he wished he’d been able to realize he was unhappy so much earlier, maybe then we could’ve done counseling.

I really felt my 180 at work that night; all these months I’d been giving him space, not pressuring him, focusing on myself in C while he distanced himself from me and everything in his “old” life. I was calm, vulnerable, not defensive. Going in to the conversation, I wanted to focus on radiating unconditional love and support and remaining nonjudgmental.

A couple of weeks ago, we were supposed to talk again (I had questions about the legal insurance he’d said he was signing up for), and he walked in with a completely different attitude, super angry, and started yelling right off the bat:

“I don’t have time for this! I’m busy with my NEW life and my NEW friends who appreciate me!” (He’d already told me he’d decided to dump another one of his old friends, because she also didn’t appreciate him.)

I stayed calm. I said, “If you want to try to work out an agreement ourselves, we probably will have to set aside a time to talk. Does another time/day work for you?” He kept yelling.

“I have stuff to do! I don’t have time for this! I’ve always done what you want! I’m not a selfish person, but I’ve spent my whole life putting other people first, and now I have to put me first!”

“I’m sorry you feel that way,” I said. “That’s not cool, to feel like you always have to do what other people want. Just text me whenever you think it’s a good time for you.”

I’m sure his C encouraged him to open up communication with me, but clearly he’s not ready. I wanted to say to him: “You’ve been living this new life with your awesome friends for almost six months now—I haven’t been stopping you or asking you anything about it. And now you’re starting the divorce process. So why do you think you’re still not happy?”

He stormed out and hasn’t brought talking up again. I did talk to him briefly when he happened to be here last weekend. I said I wanted to let him know I’d been thinking about what he said—that I’d seen him always put his mom first, and that I wished I’d realized that he’d been doing that with me too. I said I was sorry for that. I wanted to mirror some of the complaints he’s had. I said I wanted him to be happy, and feel understood, and feel appreciated, and desired.

He said “Thanks, but I don’t want that with you.” He repeated the thing about how he’s not sure if he could fall in love with me again.

I asked him why he doesn’t think he could try.

He said he’s hurt that I only made changes in myself once he threatened to leave, and he worries things would just go back to how they were. He said all this time he was pretending to be someone he wasn’t to please me, and I wouldn’t like the new him.

I can tell he’s still angry and blames me for not recognizing how unhappy he was; at the same time, he says he wishes *he* could’ve recognized how unhappy he was.

He’s been distant in the few minutes each day I do see him. He’s asked me a couple of polite questions, but mostly keeps his headphones on when he is here.

Knowing his personality, knowing how he kept himself busy and shut down thinking about our relationship when we dated, I’ve always told myself he’d have to follow through with the D before he could ever start to face what it actually means for his life. Or before he’d ever be able to see that I’m not the source of all his unhappiness. As he says, if he doesn’t want to think about things, he doesn’t. With these new friends, the partying, the drinking, I can’t help but feel he’s been running away from feeling anything that’s more complex than D = freedom, happiness. Some days I want to ask him to leave and start his new life. Some days I miss him. Some days I let him get to me, as much as I try to detach.


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I am posting Cadet's Welcome posting for you to read. If you think that this is MLC, you may want to request that your thread be moved to the MLC Forum. However, it is ultimately your choice where you want to post.

Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


Me-65, D33,S32


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2876234 12/15/19 04:07 PM
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To answer your question about MLCers and counselors. Generally the MLCer may opt to see a counselor/therapist to appease the spouse. They go, they listen and then pick and choose the words that apply to how they feel and generally only go for a couple of sessions and then state that they aren't going any longer as they have chosen to only hear words that would help them justify why they feel the way they do and convince them that it is okay to separate/divorce.

My advice is not to push him on the counselor/therapist. In fact, step back and no more discussions about the relationship. The more you push, the more he's going to run. It is best to give him plenty of space and time. While he's figuring himself out, focus on you and your finances at the moment.

This is his journey to make. We, unfortunately, have not been invited on this particular journey as it is a journey of the past that must come full circle to the present. He was emotionally stunted at an early age and now needs to revisit that time in order to realize that it was not his fault that authority figures treated him the way that they did. You didn't break him, therefore, you can't fix him. He is the only one, w/the aid of the man upstairs, can fix himself.

Your journey has begun. It is a time for you to look within, if there are changes that you need to make for yourself, then do so. Don't make changes just to win him back. Those changes must become permanent. It is a time for you to rediscover you! It is a time to do the things that you have put on the back burner. It is a time to pull that list out of the things that you have not done or wish to do and go out there and do them. When your h sees that you are making great strides in living your life and are becoming a more confident and happier person, that is when he will notice and attempt to see if you will revert back to the person he thinks that you were. Don't take the bait...stay the course!

Dig deeper for patience, listen to what he has to say and do not offer up advice unless he asks for it. Keep the focus on you and allow the man upstairs to work on your h.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2876235 12/15/19 04:15 PM
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Thanks, Job. He’s been going to his IC for these last 6 months as well, but I don’t know for sure how often. Our mutual friend says he doesn’t tell her anything about the sessions, but his general attitude is he doesn’t know why he’s going, though she says he hasn’t said that in a while now. During our last talk, he did mention that the IC is helping him recognize his patterns and push back against him when he says if you can’t change something, there’s no reason to let it affect your feelings or make you unhappy.

I do think early on he’s told her the version of our R that will allow him to justify his decision, but I suspect he might have shown her the apology letter I wrote him, which would’ve given her at least a small picture of the work I’m doing on myself.

It’s become clearer and clearer to me that he has a long way to go on his own and learning how to deal with a range of emotions in a more healthy way. I’m really hoping he continues to stick with his IC, because he’s going to need help with that. My own IC did say if he’s numbing with alcohol, which it appears he is, C progress can be really slow.


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He's got a lot of childhood issues to deal with right now. He was emotionally stunted as a child/teenager and he was always pleasing others and keeping his little mouth shut to voice "what about me? I need to be happy too" He was seen, but not heard.

Depression is the main ingredient of MLC. Depression is about the past and anxiety is about the present and future. It's going to take him some time to work through his issues. The IC may be able to help him, but there may come a time when he will shut down w/the IC too.

He's going to cut all of those "old" friends out of his life because they are reminders of his former life and they know him so well. He's going to get an entire new group of friends who really do not know his past. He try many different things along the way. Things that he has said that he would never do pre-crisis. Right now, he is the mirror ijmage of the good man, I.e., the exact opposite of the man you and love.

His journey is one that you weren't invited on and he needs to spread his wings and figure things out for himself. You didn't break him, therefore, you can't fix him. However, your journey is also beginning. It's a journey of self exploration, i.e., learning about yourself, thinking about what you want to do w/your life while he is orbiting the earth. It is a time to dig out that list of things that you've always wanted to do and didn't have the time. It's a time to create new memories and truly learn to love yourself. If you need to make changes, now is the time to do so. The changes are for you and not to win him back. They need to become a permanent part of your life.

Dig deeper for patience and learn as much as you can about depression and MLC.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2876365 12/16/19 04:49 PM
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Thank you for these reminders, Job.

Originally Posted by job
However, your journey is also beginning. It's a journey of self exploration, i.e., learning about yourself, thinking about what you want to do w/your life while he is orbiting the earth.


One thing I've discovered in this crappy time is that I'm a lot more secure in my sense of self than he is and better able to find happiness within myself. I want that for him too. My main fears are financial--I now have to find a new job that can support me, because even with alimony my current job won't cut it, and I have to have faith that will happen. In the meantime, I am taking comfort in the fact that I CAN find fulfillment own my own, even if I do miss sharing so many aspects of daily life with him. I've rediscovered a lot of confidence in myself that I'd forgotten I had. I'm also learning about how to be vulnerable, and that both of these--strength and vulnerability--can exist at once.

I'm still thinking about what PLC said in her thread: "I am stronger than he realizes."


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This morning I'm thinking about something I realized after I tried summarizing my sitch for my first post on Saturday: I've been thinking of my last conversation with H pretty negatively--seeing it as confirmation that he's not in a place to notice the changes I've made yet. But in saying he's hurt that I only started to change once he threatened to leave and that he's afraid if he did give the R a chance, things would go back to the way they were, I see that in one compartment of his brain, he does see that I've changed.

I think I also continue to exist in yet another compartment of his brain: a few months ago, I started leaving him short notes on the kitchen table once or twice a week since he was almost always gone when I got home from one job and before I headed to another--they were mostly businesslike--one of our cats needs meds twice a day, and I'd let him know whether or not I'd had a chance to do that, or whether or not they'd been fed. But I also tried to throw in jokes the way I'd normally do, and sometimes I would let him know I'd made cookies or whatever, and that he was welcome to take some. (Sometimes he would and sometimes he wouldn't.) Once I expressed sympathy after he'd told me, casually, that a dear family friend of his had died suddenly.

Does he throw these little notes away after he reads them, in the trash can that sits a few feet away? No. He takes them back to his room, and he's saved every one of them.


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Yep, MLCers do that, i.e., they save notes, gifts, cards and wrapping paper in some cases. Very, very typical behavior for someone in crisis. They will look at those things over and over again when they are alone and/or can't sleep at night.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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This is so strange to me! Is it just another thing that you can’t begin to make sense of, another sign of their confusion and fog? This is also making remember that in the letter he wrote me before we started dating for good again after the college break-up, he said he used to look at my picture every night in his room by himself, before he made himself believe there was no chance I would love him again and he decided to stop thinking about us and keep himself busy.

Something he did tear up into little pieces and throw away: an ad that came addressed to him in the mail for an anniversary necklace, “engraved” with a love poem from him to me. I found this kind of funny—i.e. apparently it’s getting to him, or he would’ve just thrown it away with the rest of the mail and not taken the time to tear it up first!


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Have you visited the MLC Forum yet? Much of what is going on has been experienced by many of us who have/had MLCers in our lives.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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I’ve spent a lot of time reading that form in the last few months—maybe it’s time to go back through my bookmarked threads.

I did read one of BluWave’s threads this morning, and it really helped me verbalize what I’ve come to understand about H in a much clearer way (Thank you for sharing your experience, BluWave!):
Quote
Part of the reason that H checked out, had the A, and got stuck in the fog is because he was an extreme people pleaser. He adopted the role of Mr Nice Guy (there is a great book on this FYI), awesome dad, hard worker, and family man. He did not hold masculine stereotypes and prided himself on that. With that he lost himself and his own needs and interests.

I adored him, as did all women that met him. "He is so great! I wish my H was more like that!" What I failed to realize is that he was silently suffering and had growing resentment towards me. He felt that he did everything for me and the family and was worn out.


This is my H exactly, though he would say his mom is a people pleaser, not him. In general, maybe he’s not, but he certainly has been with all the women in his life since I’ve known him. I just didn’t realize it until BD. Now he’s thinking he’s happy because he’s answering to no one and gets to stay out at all hours; from the outside, he does not seem happy.

I talked to my C about this today, and she said, yeah, it sounds like H has gathered up years of resentment after never being able to set boundaries or voice his true feelings to his mom, his women friends, or you, and now he’s directing it all at you... and he has a lot of work to do, which make take years if he doesn’t stop running and coping with alcohol.

I know many of you have expressed this in regard to your own sitches before, but it’s all so sad to watch him chasing happiness in this potentially self-destructive way.


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Originally Posted by cardinal
Some days I want to ask him to leave and start his new life. Some days I miss him. Some days I let him get to me, as much as I try to detach

I feel the same way. our feelings will go up and down. we will want to stay and leave. We are not perfect, we can only try our best to DB. Also it's not the end of the world if we have a couple missteps along the way.

my H is also numbing himself with alcohol (for a long time). He constantly claims that he's going to stop "soon," or he's going to drink less, or he needs to get back to the gym...yadayada over and over again. They have to deal with their own demons, there's nothing we can do for them. Yes, it is sad to watch, but ultimately we can only detach and accept the fact that it is their journey.


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Originally Posted by cardinal


I know many of you have expressed this in regard to your own sitches before, but it’s all so sad to watch him chasing happiness in this potentially self-destructive way.



Yes, I feel sad watching my H spiral out of control as well. He is chasing happiness in all the wrong places, it seems. The happiness has to come from within, but he thinks if he leaves the marriage, he will find a happier situation. It really is all so sad. It is like watching a train wreck.


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Originally Posted by HesAble
The happiness has to come from within, but he thinks if he leaves the marriage, he will find a happier situation. It really is all so sad. It is like watching a train wreck.


Thanks, Woosa and HesAble, for commiserating with me. I've been reading your threads and will continue to follow your journeys as well. I'm sorry you both find yourselves here, too! Totally like watching a train wreck, and my H seems to be speeding faster and faster.

After being gone all night pretty much every night for weeks, he was home Sunday night and Monday night, not really interacting with me, but home. His energy wasn't as angry, but it felt tense, even though I was in a good mood, determined to not let his presence mess with my PMA. We cooked separate meals in the kitchen Sunday night. He had his headphones on as usual (they were already on when I got home, and I even ran into him in the store the other day and he had them on while he shopped). He was also making the cake he makes every year for a friend at work. At the end of the night he was making the frosting, and he let me taste it.

"It's not very good," he said.

"I think it's good, really creamy!" I said.

"I messed up the cake too," he said.

I think it was a little vulnerable for him to share his disappointment with me.

Sometimes it makes me feel... I don't know if better is the right word, but I'm better able to detach from the sitch when he exhibits what seems to be "classic" MLCer behavior, e.g. his "I have a new life!" tantrum a couple weeks ago. It reminds me that this crisis is only partly about our marriage, and it drives home the "I didn't break him, so I can't fix him" mantra. But then I'm like—wait, why do I feel better that it seems to be MLC, when it means this could go on for much longer than WAH?

On the rare occasions when he's home for an extended period and acting happy, but just cold/distant around me, it does still get to me a little, though a lot less than it used to.

My plan going forward is to continue to not really engage him in any convos, even brief ones, and to let him come to me. But since I expect him to file in January, we will have to start talking about mediation, etc. at some point. I'm not looking forward to that, because I already know the story he's telling himself is that I want to control the process like I've always controlled his life, and he's not going to want me to ask for anything.


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Cardinal,

If you think that you have a MLCer on your hands, you may want to consider having your thread moved to the MLC Forum or the very least visiting that forum to see what others are dealing with and what is working for them.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Hi, Job—sure, I'll go wherever you think it'll be most helpful! Can you move the thread for me?


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Struggling today with detachment—feeling that old cycle of disappointment and anger that after 16 years together, he can go from asking me out to dinner one week and saying he loves me to the BD and almost no contact/conversation, though we're living in the same house. Logically, I know on some level he's got to miss, if not our love, our friendship; logically, I know he's probably struggling too, but that's locked away in some other compartment of his.

At least, six months out, I can recognize that these feelings will come and go. I won't let them ruin my day.


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Cardinal,

Welcome to the world of MLC! I am pasting in Cadet's Welcome posting for the MLC Forum.


Welcome to this board.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)

I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.

This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.

I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289

Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296

Things you should know as the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017#Post2701017

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444

Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741

MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869

The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1

WAS showing you positive signs? WAIT - READ THIS!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2772942#Post2772942

Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.

I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.

Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!

Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.

I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.

Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.

Detach the single most important thing to DO.

Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


Me-65, D32,S31


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Thanks for moving my thread here, Job!

Now that I'm officially in the MLC board, I'm wondering if there is any advice on my general approach, post- R-talk instigated by my H a few weeks ago, when he let me know he's planning to file very soon (more on that in the first post).

My mindset has been pretty much the same as the last 5 months or so before this talk: he's out all the time with his new friends, I ask no questions, I keep things friendly and light when approached, I aim to keep my focus on me. I want to remove myself as much as possible from being, in his view, the source of his unhappiness. I would think he should be flying high because he's finally gotten to do whatever he wants for months now, but that doesn't appear to be the case. He's going to have to realize on his own (or not) that that still isn't bringing him happiness.

Still working on detaching, but I think hearing him say he was planning to file has helped me detach a little more; it has reminded me again I really have NO control over what he does. The only thing that's really changed after that talk seems to be his behavior, in that it feels like he's trying to put more distance between us. I think he's realizing he's going to have to start communicating with me about the D/arrangements, and he doesn't want to.

In the meantime, I've been reading back through older threads here, and that is always helpful. I'm so grateful for this support!


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Cardinal,

Lots of them say they will file, and even when they do, they can't seem to see it through. Mine is that way. I've been hearing about this divorce for 10 years now. I just haven't seen it yet.

The only approach is to detach for your own benefit and understand that if it is MLC, it is a long, hard slog. My personal feeling is that they have to leave to live that exciting life we are keeping them from so they can process what they are doing and stand to lose. Even then, some like Peace's and Job's former husbands just roam the earth like lost souls forever.

You don't have any control. None. He probably doesn't either.

You will find yourself again through this and you will have all the happiness you allow into your life. Look forward, not back. If you meet him on the side of the road someday on your journey, and he looks and sounds like someone you want to be around, then great. Either way, by focusing on you, you win every time.

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Originally Posted by OwnIt
My personal feeling is that they have to leave to live that exciting life we are keeping them from so they can process what they are doing and stand to lose.


This is how I've felt too, OwnIt. Thanks for your support here.

My H is running as fast as he can toward this new life; from my standpoint, it seems like he's trying to outrun his hurt, anger, and unhappiness.

I don't think there's any stopping him or slowing him down at this point. He let me know he's been to workshops on how to D and I know he's started filling out the paperwork. I think he's waiting until after January 1 because he signed up for legal insurance through his job, and it doesn't go into effect until then. He said he thinks we can save money and work out an agreement on our own, but then when I tried to communicate with him about said agreement, he agreed to talk and then, when the time came, started yelling about how he doesn't have time for this with his new life and new friends.

I'm not sure how he thinks we'll work out an agreement ourselves if he doesn't want to talk about it. I think what he really wants is to not have to do any of the work the D will require and have everything be over and done with.

I think this legal insurance he'll have will cover mediation, which is what I'd like to do. I think it'll be necessary to have that third party, because I can see him getting angry if I try to ask for anything he doesn't think is fair, since he's all about no one asking anything of him right now. The main issue might be our house, which we rent. I'm assuming he'll be leaving, but I'm not sure what he's assuming. I'm feeling very vulnerable right now, because I'm going to have to depend on whatever the alimony is until I can get a higher paying job, which I really hope will be soon.

Can anyone give me advice on where I go from here as far as communicating with him about his plans/whatever he's imagining an agreement will be? Do I just wait until he actually files and then bring up mediation again? In our no-fault state, if I don't contest the filing, it's automatically finalized six months from the date of service.


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If it does not harm you to do so, let him do it. His divorce, let him own it. I have first-hand experience in not being able to push a person where they are unwilling to go.

Unlikely this legal insurance will cover much. Mediation is a voluntary process. There is no harm in going and see what you can resolve. Before you do, take some free consultations with divorce lawyers (ones who only handle domestic issues), get an idea of what the issues are in your case and how the court is likely to resolve matters. Find one you like. Have them attend the mediation or be on standby or review anything before you sign it or agree to it.

Take it one step at a time. Don't do anything that you believe to be wrong or not in your best interest. Don't try to be nice in the hopes it will bring him back. It doesn't work and you don't want to harm yourself.

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Own gave good advice, and I was thinking the same

get a few free consulations with a good Divorce attorney..
MY friend recommended me hers, and he was lifesaving
after the consulktation, you can either stay with that attorney, or choose another-
they will also discuss their cost, if you should choose them

The free consultation will pave a clear path...
what you will get
what is yours...what will be his
how much alimony and child support

The attorney really knows the whole deal..its their specialty and in one hour of free advice
you will know everything
it was empowering for me-

The MLCer will want to split things on their own with little help from an attorney
Make it clear that you wont do that when the time comes.


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Cardinal,

Do not agree to anything w/your runaway h concerning a divorce or splitting up of the assets. As OwnIt and Peace have pointed out, get some good, solid legal advice for a lawyer. Now is the time to start looking around for one that may have a free consultation. If not, pay the for the first hour and trust me, it will be well worth the money to find out what you are entitled to. Once you know what you are entitled to, do not share that info w/your h. This is you ace in pocket that you need to keep to yourself for now.

Sure, he's going to want to do things w/o having a lawyer involved and they all think that we can come to a civil agreement...one that is all for them and little left for us. Just a word of caution, once he realizes that you know the drill and have a good handle or what you are entitled to and you stand your ground, he may very well become angry and nasty. If he does, walk away, do not attempt to reason w/him. He's got to learn he can't have everything his way and he's the reason that a divorce is taking place.

Knowledge is power. Gather as much information as you can so that you know your rights. Stand tall, hold your head up high and be ready for anything at this point.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Thank you so much, Job, OwnIt, and Peace for offering your thoughts. I don't think I would be afraid of negotiating with my "old" H, but now that he's rebelling against the nice guy persona he's apparently lived with his whole life, every decision is driven by this rebellion and a great sense of entitlement, whether rational or not. I'm still not used to this side of him, I guess.

Months ago I did have a consult with a lawyer who also does mediation, and she thought my staying in the house was totally reasonable and even suggested I might want to ask him to leave at some point, if he did or didn't follow through with D. Since we have no major assets or debts (though I have no idea how much his own credit card is running these days), she said it would be a simple D and process. I'm now feeling like I have more questions than I did then, so I'll look into doing a consult with another lawyer or two after the holidays. I do need to feel strong and confident that I know as much as he does about this stuff.

Originally Posted by job
Cardinal,
Just a word of caution, once he realizes that you know the drill and have a good handle or what you are entitled to and you stand your ground, he may very well become angry and nasty. If he does, walk away, do not attempt to reason w/him. He's got to learn he can't have everything his way and he's the reason that a divorce is taking place.


I'm kind of assuming he'll have this reaction, and I need to work on preparing for it. This also has to do with setting boundaries, another thing I'm learning to be better at.

For example, if I say:

"I understand you would like to try to work out an agreement ourselves. But I don't want you to feel like I'm the only one calling the shots, and I don't want to feel like you are, either. I want us both to be able to express our needs, and I would like to try developing this agreement through mediation."

If he would start yelling about how I'm trying to control his life, it would be best not only to stay calm but to exit the situation. I would want to listen and validate but also set a boundary. Something like this?

"I'm sorry you feel that way. I want to really hear you, but it's hard for me to do that when you yell. Maybe we should take a break and try talking more later."

I'm struggling with trying to plan how to respond, because I think he'll
A) resent the fact that I'm being calm while he's yelling and insist he's not yelling (which is something that has happened before in past arguments pre-BD)
B) Get more angry and accuse me of trying to control him/situation & say he doesn't have time to talk later

and I don't want to fall into my old mode of defensiveness and trying to explain/reason with him. I want him to fight with himself if he has to, but I will not participate.


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Cardinal,

I am going to suggest one thing that you need to do...do a credit history report on the two of you. You need to know just what type of expenses on the credit cards and any loans he may have taken that you aren't aware of.

If you do sit down w/him, listen, validate and then tell him you need time to think about what he's proposing and that you will get back to him. Take the data to your lawyer and have him/her look it over. If he gets nasty, just say "I am sorry you feel that way and when you calm down and want to talk further, just let me know" then walk away. You do not need to defend yourself or continue the argument.

You have a good handle on what to do.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Thank you, Job. I'm thinking I'll wait until he actually files and I am served, because I don't really think he's going to sit down and talk with me about his "offer" or working out an agreement beforehand, and then I'll take the papers to a consult with a lawyer. If he does approach me about working out an agreement before he files, then I'll reassess my approach. It's the waiting and uncertainty that's the worst--as I write that, I realize I shouldn't be "waiting; I'm GAL, but I still feel that next step in the D hovering over me, when it will be officially happening.

It's helpful to remember at any time I can say I'll get back to him. Whatever it is, I don't have to engage with him in the moment if I don't want to.

I find I'm very cool and detached during the week for the most part. I barely see him since he's out late pretty much every night after work, and it's easy to focus on myself. The weekends are harder because he's sometimes around doing laundry. He keeps to his room. He hasn't really tried to make light conversation with me for several weeks now, since just before Thanksgiving and the D talk, since his "I have a new life!" outburst. My goal is always to not let his presence affect how I feel in the house, though I do miss how, a couple of months ago, he might have volunteered a few minutes of conversation. Even though I know it's not helpful, I sometimes tend to think, Is it something I did? Is there something I should be doing now?

Last night I was surprised to find him home eating leftover soup he'd made himself Sunday. I said, "Oh, hey!" in a light, cheerful way, and went about greeting the cats. He did his dishes and was gone until midnight or so. He slept in and was going for a run this morning as I left for work. It seems every time he does something I'd consider normal, like running, I start to think, Does X cancel out all the other weird, alien-H stuff? Does this mean he's not having an MLC? But I guess there can be both uncharacteristic behavior AND a intermittent glimpses of normality at the same time.


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Haven’t dreamed about my H in a while, and dreamed he was even colder to me than he already is. What are your go-to threads or mantras to regain perspective/PMA when you’re momentarily stuck on the negative things your spouse has said about your R/you? In my case, the latest ones don’t seem as bad as they could be, which somehow makes their echo more frustrating (I can’t be the kind of happy I want in this R, I don’t know if I could fall in love with you again).


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Hi

Its hard in the beginning
You can create new mantras or a new go to thread....
This will take practice on your part

Something like:
H is in crises..
This is not about me..I cant fix this
while its sad and very painful, I will take care of myself
I will get through this..I am getting stronger day by day
I can set boundaries and create healthy patterns for me
I can still enjoy my life today..I am healing

think about what mantras feel good for you
therapy is so important now for you

I listen to a lot of U tube videos everyday

Positive speakers give free uplifting messages
churches, pastors, motivational speakers, therapists, coaches ect..
there are tons

Also:
You will see normal behavior mixed in
they sometimes may even be extra nice
they have touch and goes..where they come to reality

The thing is they are in a crises..most likely caused by unresolved childhood trauma
unless they are in therapy and even then, they only see the fantasy life as the way out of their pain
They cant understand that they may nede to resolve their pain in a healthy way
they are in DENIAL and cant be reached

You are doing good and as you continue to find support...you will get clearer and stronger

keep in mind:
Most LBS wind up landing on their feet.
Most of us here create a better life with or without them

This is a gift...for you to grow to go inward to resolve your issues and become who you want to be
The pain and the grief fades in time and we can create new either with our current spouse or ..
and if you ask anyone here,,, they will tell you years later how it all worked out..

hang in


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Originally Posted by peacetoday

Its hard in the beginning
You can create new mantras or a new go to thread....
This will take practice on your part


Thank you for your response, peace. I’ve saved bits of other threads that have been helpful in the past and will try to return to them when I need a boost. I think, “It’s not about me and I can’t fix him” is one I need to keep repeating. Also: no expectations.

H left Saturday evening with his dirty laundry and came back at 6 am this morning with clean laundry, then left for work. Honestly, it’s easier for me to relax here when he’s gone, but then there’s the annoying question fluttering in the back of my mind: When will he be back? I fantasized about changing the locks, so that he could more easily live his new life with the friends who appreciate him so much! I think it’s getting to me because, you know, it’s Christmas. We’d normally be leaving on a trip together to go see our families, but he let me know during the D convo a few weeks ago he told his mom he’s not coming this year. I’m a little unsettled about leaving him here in the house with the pets he’s been ignoring.

I assume, if he is here when I leave, he’ll be sleeping. Too much to leave a note that says, “Merry Christmas”?


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I would leave a note thanking him for looking after the pets and wish him a nice Christmas. Nothing more than that. Look at him as a house and pet sitter. Wouldn't you wish them a nice and/or Merry Christmas?

Enjoy your time away and leave the MLC at the door for a few days.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Look at him as a house and pet sitter. Wouldn't you wish them a nice and/or Merry Christmas?[/quote]


Yes, Job—it’s helpful to think of it like this. (Of course, I also think—wouldn’t a house sitter wish me a Merry Christmas? Maybe not if they were going through a MLC, is probably the way to look at it!)


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cardinal,

If you wish to leave a note just thanking him for taking care of the pets, then do so. It's up to you as to whether you want to wish him a Merry Christmas. I just thought I would mention it since he is staying in your home and taking care of your pets. Otherwise, you would either need to find someone to take care of them, put them in a kennel or stay home. Hopefully, he will keep the place clean and your fur babies happy and fed.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Yes! And H has felt that his actions were always taken for granted, so one thing I’ve tried to do is to be better at always acknowledging when he does help out in some way—e.g. I want him to know I do appreciate his taking care of the pets while I’m gone.


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Mulling things over while gardening & wanted to put this here for my record. I was thinking about one of the things H said during BD: "I don't know who I am at home anymore." In a way, this didn't surprise me, because after a lifetime of insisting he was the happiest person and nothing could get to him, H was realizing this was not the case. We'd recognized this in his mom a few years back. I thought then, yes, there are things in our M that need work, but this is also an identity crisis for H.

Over the past six months, I've realized I'd lost some of my confidence and independence over our 16-year R (and I've already started to gain those back, since I've had to rely completely on myself since he checked out), but I never lost my identity or ability to create happiness for myself, within myself. I know who I am. I will continue to build my confidence and independence no matter what, but I had and have a life independent of H; I was working toward life goals and am still working toward them. With an IC and a coach, I also began work on understanding my patterns and less than helpful ways of communicating, things that I didn't have enough distance from to recognize before, and I've made progress on those whether H acknowledges it or not. I will continue to work on those as part of my 180. Sometimes I forget that he hasn't seen any of my anger and barely any of my sadness since BD; though I've had those feelings a lot and expressed them to others, I've remained calm with him.

In my most centered, self-assured moments, I understand that H is unhappy with himself, doesn't know who he is, and it's easier to blame that all on the M and me. I want him to find himself and find happiness within himself—I just wish he didn't feel walking away from the M and finding validation in new friends was the way to do it. I do think he needs the D to feel like he's really "free" to be happy, to chase after his idea of a new life, which doesn't seem well-defined right now, other than that he'll be free of any responsibility to please anyone but himself... well, there will still be that same issue with his mom, but I don't think he realizes that!

I think he needs the D to have a chance of realizing I'm not the source of his unhappiness. I would like to channel empathy instead of anger. I would like to have faith all is not lost between us for good.


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I know everyone is probably busy with Christmas—I can’t believe it’s Christmas! I traveled to see my family yesterday, and I’ll be with them for a bit. It’s not what I expected. My H stayed at home with our cats, preferring to avoid seeing his family (I won’t see them either for the first time this year, and I miss them too). I now see it would’ve been much easier in a way for me to stay home too: here I’m out of my routine that was giving me strength (and I miss the cats!), and seeing my parents, grandparents, etc. just makes the loss of H feel more real. He didn’t wish me a good trip or say Merry Christmas before I left (expectations I tried not to have, but apparently I did). He won’t ask me about my family when I return. I miss all of this.

I also spent time reading Sandi’s threads again, and I started spiraling thinking about the difference between MLC and WH and WAH and worrying that I don’t know what’s going on with H and that I haven’t DB’d in the exact right way in the last six months. I know there isn’t an exact right way, but it still caused me to reflect. I switched my negative MA for PMA back then and he noticed. I stopped being defensive. I didn’t let him push my buttons. I didn’t ask him where he was when he was gone or what he did or who his new friends were. I said nothing when he took his ring off. I have maintained friendly distance and let him engage me, for the most part, but maybe I have also been too friendly. i wanted to continue to show love and kindness through my smallest actions. I continued to do his laundry like I’d always done even when he said I didn’t have to—it’s not a big deal to throw it in with mine, after all. (H started keeping his laundry in his room after Thanksgiving, so I no longer do it.) I made it clear he was free to eat any of the food I made in the fridge or on the counter, and sometimes he did. I thanked him for things he’d done in the past that I felt he thought I’d taken for granted, but now I think that’s just his mindset: everyone takes him for granted, especially me. I kept my actions and attitude consistent and his moods fluctuated up and down, sometimes he was friendly to me, sometimes distant and cold. I felt I could expect these ups and downs from him and didn’t need to alter my actions in response. I would remain constant while he would be moody.

But for the last month, right before and after Thanksgiving when he brought up D, he has been consistently more distant and cold and uncommunicative. I don’t think I need to change my actions, because I don’t think I caused him to be that way. But I do wonder if I’m missing something that I should/shouldn’t be doing. I know he knows I don’t want our M to end. I’m wondering if I need to do some kind of big or subtle shift in my attitude or behavior around him when I get back. Or if I can just keep my PMA no matter what he does with D and offer a friendly good morning but nothing more each day.

If anyone has time to share any thoughts on this in the next several days, I’m all ears! I feel like I’m entering a new phase with the D papers probably coming this year.

I’m grateful I can write here before I go face my family. Merry Christmas, everyone! I hope you’re all finding moments of joy today.


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Just got this text from a mutual friend (the only one H has kept so far): “H dropped us off just a few minutes ago. He told me he was asleep when you left and was surprised that you didn’t say goodbye or say Merry Christmas. Just thought you’d like to know.”

The reality is he ate dinner in the kitchen with his headphones on the night before I left and then retired to his room with headphones. He was asleep when I left early the next morning, so I left him a note that said Merry Christmas and thanked him for taking care of the pets. Our friend knows this, but of course he didn’t mention it to her.

There is nothing I can do correctly—right? He’s going to find any way he can to justify his reasons for leaving right now. So there’s no point in texting him Merry Christmas today. I’m sure he’ll share this story with his mom too, which drives me crazy. I’m disappointed she (apparently) believes his negative version of everything—I thought she’d been around us enough to realize it’s not the whole story.


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You are correct. Better to do too little now than too much. Too much feeds the escape, too little creates doubt on the security of the anchor. His problem, his timeline.

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Merry Christmas, Cardinal.
Nope, sadly there’s nothing you can do. Whatever you do/ don’t do will be wrong in his eyes. It’s maddening and very frustrating because you want to do something/anything to make it right whereas he just wants to wallow.

I’m sorry you are going through this. The things you can do are for you and your sanity. Yes, keep up the PMA, be brief but cordial in your interactions. You are right, you didn’t cause this and it’s not your burden to correct..... of course you can use this time to clean up your side of the street, but you can’t help him.

To this day (5 years in), I still get a little miffed that our mutual friends and his side of the family only heard his version. Of events. It will get easier in time and unfortunately you will get used to being the villain in his story. So his comments to your friend are just par for the course.

Meanwhile, we’re here for you. I hope you find some calm and peace today.


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Thanks for the support, Own and Pax. One of the things keeping me sane right now is knowing that at least this mutual friend thinks he’s crazy, and sees how he’s spinning everything to reinforce his decision. She’s trying to be his friend too, but I think she might challenge him in a way he doesn’t want to be if he continues this behavior as he starts the D process.

*I* know he would’ve read the note, and if he wants to not mention it to anyone else because it would mess with his version of the R and the story he’s telling himself about why he doesn’t want to even TRY after 10 years of marriage, well, that’s his decision. I don’t think he can lie to himself forever, but maybe for a long time. After all, he has to protect his feeling that he isn’t being selfish right now, he’s finally acting on what he wants instead of doing what others have wanted him to do, (others ultimately = me, in his mind.)

I did tell him to have a good Thanksgiving and that I would miss sharing it with him when he decided to go on a trip with his mom instead. He cancelled Christmas for himself; maybe he was expecting me to say I would miss him again. It is hard to not text him today, but I *did* wish him a Merry Christmas... I have to remember that.


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Also—always trying to balance all this with doing something different/180s in terms of our relationship—I know H wanted me to be more openly affectionate, which he isn’t open to post BD, obviously. I’ve been trying to be warm but detached, but of course this latest reaction from H makes me worry I am appearing more distant than I want to. But maybe he’s also surprised that I wasn’t visibly upset or fawning over him before the holiday, that I was upbeat and strong, and therefore this is a good reaction from him?

How do I know what’s working? How the heck do I walk this line?


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I know it seems counter-intuitive, but as with the blame, there is nothing you can do right now or "right" now. If you are warm, affectionate or kind, he will read that as pursuit. As you sitting firmly on the anchor. That tells him he can keep it up and you'll be there. That is not going to bring about the thing you want and only keeps you in a place of expectation and rejection.

There is only one version of DB. There aren't separate ones for WAH or MLC. Just chapters in the same book. If you subscribe to the theory, and I definitely do given what I see going on (which is a function of timing and my too-long-in-coming detachment), unless they really fear that they are going to lose you, they just keep running.

Basic question is the same. Do you want a relationship with who he is now on the terms he sets (subject to change at any time), that ensures you will walk on eggshells and pretzel yourself to meet his ever-changing demands and justifications? Or do you want to regain control of your own life and fill it with people who want to be in it and contribute to it in a meaningful way? Easy for me to say that now, and totally hypocritical because I thought all the same things and worried about all the same things. I just hate to see people throw away years of their lives pining like I did.

If you detach and focus on you and your own happiness, you will be more attractive to him (or maybe someone else), you will be the person he would be a fool to leave, you make the opportunity cost of remaining in whatever this is higher, and you make him worry you might be out there dancing with someone else. Maybe he comes back as someone you know and love and want to be with, maybe he doesn't but you've found happiness and made a life.

Which sounds more appealing?

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Originally Posted by OwnIt
I know it seems counter-intuitive, but as with the blame, there is nothing you can do right now or "right" now.


Ah, yes. His words and yours have made this real to me, finally.

Originally Posted by OwnIt
There is only one version of DB. There aren't separate ones for WAH or MLC. Just chapters in the same book. If you subscribe to the theory, and I definitely do given what I see going on (which is a function of timing and my too-long-in-coming detachment), unless they really fear that they are going to lose you, they just keep running.


Ownit, when you say "I definitely do given what I see going on," do you mean in general on the board, in your own sitch, or in this particular instance? Or all three? I've caught up on your sitch, and it also drives home that I have been at this for such a short time! I hope I can channel a slice of the strength and confidence and patience you've had. It really blows me away, especially as I'm currently feeling like I've somehow lost all the internal progress I've made.

Originally Posted by OwnIt
If you detach and focus on you and your own happiness, you will be more attractive to him (or maybe someone else), you will be the person he would be a fool to leave, you make the opportunity cost of remaining in whatever this is higher, and you make him worry you might be out there dancing with someone else. Maybe he comes back as someone you know and love and want to be with, maybe he doesn't but you've found happiness and made a life.

Which sounds more appealing?


I'm not struggling with the answer to this question (pretzeling is exhausting and, clearly, nothing I do will be right!); I'm struggling with the reality of it. Why is it so difficult to wrap my head around what it means to detach not in the abstract, but in the concrete, day-to-day life kind of way? I think back to BD, and I see I've made progress in detaching, but as I feel I'm nearing closer to this new phase of receiving D papers, I feel I'm at square one again.

I'm being challenged to complete the next level of detachment. This one is harder: so far, I've gotten fairly good at putting blinders up to whatever he's doing/not doing while while I go to work and apply for new jobs and re-center myself in my own life and daily routine. Now I'll have to achieve a higher level of detachment while being confronted with the new logistical and financial and legal realities of how his decision is impacting my life.


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Well, after telling our mutual friend I hadn't said goodbye or Merry Christmas to him when I left Tuesday morning (though I had left him a short note that said Merry Christmas), H ended up texting me Christmas afternoon, our first text correspondence since Thanksgiving. He sent a video of our cats and said, "Merry Christmas." I should probably have waited longer than I did to respond, but I reciprocated with a video of my parents' new cat and "Merry Christmas!"

I thought being at home with my family would be a nice break from all the stuff going on with H, but it has been the opposite. Seeing them for the first time since BD has messed with the confidence and detachment I'd been able to build up since the summer. I now understand why it was much easier for H to stay home and avoid seeing his own family. I've felt the ghost of old H with me on this trip, as he'd normally be here too. I know he loved my family and enjoyed time with them—my family is close, and his is much smaller and not close. I think he felt he had more in common with my own dad than his.

I flew in to his hometown but have had no contact with his family, when I'd normally be spending Christmas Eve and day with them. His mom and dad divorced when he was young and my MIL always made a big deal of how they've remained friends, so I'm hurt that she's never reached out to me (other than a text sharing a horoscope that encouraged me, essentially, to move on) and didn't tell me Merry Christmas. I haven't heard from his dad either, but we weren't close like I thought I was with MIL.

I've basically been a mess here these last few days, heavy with grief for both my old H and the R I had with his family. I am not looking forward to returning to my home with H next week. I need to re-center myself before I do, somehow.


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Hello cardinal

I love your response to Own’s statement of counterintuitive. It is and was an Ah, finally! moment for all of us too. It remains counterintuitive right until it isn’t. And the by the way, it’s a gradual approaching of understanding, not a sudden moment. However, one’s realization that they finally got it, is a sudden moment.

It is similar for detachment and indifference. It takes time and patience as one uncouples their irrational attachment to their spouse and their antics, and a moment when one realizes that they are more detached than attached. It is also not an all or nothing kind of thing, we detach from certain behaviours and are fully in the grip of others - especially as they newly appear. This is the shown in your current situation regarding receiving D papers. That is new and needs to be felt, acknowledged, and accepted. It takes time. Be patient with yourself. A big reason why GAL is such an important piece of the healing process.

Originally Posted by cardinal
Why is it so difficult to wrap my head around what it means to detach not in the abstract, but in the concrete, day-to-day life kind of way? I think back to BD, and I see I've made progress in detaching, but as I feel I'm nearing closer to this new phase of receiving D papers, I feel I'm at square one again.

You said this so very well. “I feel I’m at square one again”.

But are you?

Think about that.

You can see all the progress you’ve made. You know you are doing well, you are detaching. You know you are passed square one.

Emotional detachment. It is the uncoupling of your irrational emotional reactions to H and his behaviours. Being detached stops the uncontrolled dragging your feelings around with whatever is happening, being said, or being done by H.

Seeing this intellectually can help with the process - which is to feel and acknowledge those irrational feelings. To rationalize your emotions, as counterintuitive as that sounds.

Indifference is the numbness that follows detachment. A non caring feeling towards one’s spouse. I found it to be so very helpful to do this in a compassionate manner. Finding compassionate indifference allows one to still care (our spouse is still a person after all), and not. I know sounds weird.

You can go about your day, concerned for H’s decisions, behaviours, etc... and realize (and believe - oh so very important to get this into one’s beliefs) that you don’t control him so he is responsible for his life choices and consequences.

A healthy compassionate detachment and indifference is one of the strong foundations that one’s healing and forgiveness is built upon - invest the time to do it well and kindly. It seems like a longer path at the beginning, but I believe it is much shorter overall. Of course that depends on one’s goals or destination they desire from their journey.

You are doing well, applying for new jobs, re-centering yourself, new routines, and such. The financial and legal ramifications of the pending divorce can, and does, pull one in. Mental assertiveness. This is business, treat it that way.

Of course you and I are not emotionless robots, so carve out some time to feel what is going on. Schedule it. Really. It disturbs, and uncouples the irrational connection between feelings and event (or pending event in this case). It also builds the realization that the feeling/event is not cause and effect. A scheduled time to look at upcoming divorce is intellectual car stuff, mostly. Some of the feelings that stir are not the same fear based emotions that surface at other times. This shows your mind and heart that there is more than just the one path, that it is possible to feel something else. And that is a big step.

Something else to consider is your addiction to H, to your M, to your relationship. All perfectly normal, and a good thing when all was going fine. As you detach, pull away from H, withdrawal sets in. Sorry, but it hurts. Again, time, patience, and mental assertiveness will see you through it. Stop snooping, stop following H on FB or other social media, stop looking at pictures and getting lost down memory lane, take pictures down around your house, etc..

Some concrete steps that can be taking, and there are other to be sure. All, some, or none need be taken by you - it is your choice. And the healing affect from each is hard to see at first. Myself, I blocked XW, and took down the pictures of us, the day the divorce was finalized.

Do I wish I did it sooner? I honestly don’t know. I don’t look back and wish about things I could have done differently. I am happy with who I am and where my life is. The time it took me to get here, the path - it’s all good. I am cognizant of my choices, and accept my benefits and consequences of them. To be sure, for a while it was not that way, not by a long shot! Time. It does work wonders.

You, my dear, are using your time wisely. Keep investing well, for it pays huge dividends in ways one cannot even comprehend when in the thick of things.

DnJ


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Its totally understandable the way you are feeling
Christmas is a tough time for many of us especially in the beginning and the first one--

Its good that you are feeling the grief and allowing it to pass through you...that will bring healing

The MLCers family will usually always side with them...usually until they start seeing odd behavior
and if you were close the MIL, that is another loss

My MIL finally came around after she/they saw how crazy XH Choices were and because they did not like the OW

Centering yourself is a good trait to practice
I use:

Meditation ...many utube and instructional videos out there
listening to positive messages or reading inspirational books may help
reading Divorce busting was helpful for me and learning about MLC helped for me to understand what this was, and that it was not my fault

As I look back, it was so very painful; but also quite a gift to reflect and change
there was so much support here and everywhere and hope too

Hang in there


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Cardinal, you are doing great and this is really next-level stuff here. I love that you are taking it in and asking questions. When I see someone pushing the advice away or making excuses (you misunderstood, it's not like that, I'm not like that, he/she isn't like that, etc.) I worry. I know that person is going to spend some time in stuck and suffer more than they need to. I don't get that with you at all. I see someone doing a great job of processing a really sh&tty deal.

Sorry if I was vague. I was referring to OD. He was stuck for a long time and I think it was because I was stuck and not moving on. Now that he sees I've done that, he seems to be moving along much better. But who knows.

I love what DnJ said. Helped me understand my own distinction between detachment (which I've had a while) from indifference (which I reached some time over the late summer). For me, indifference is detachment without expectation. Last year I was detached when OD started his circle in, and I didn't handle it well because I still had expectations. Aha I thought, he we go. The limbo was killing me. So I pushed him, hard. And he ran hard and fully embraced his new life in every way possible. Do I regret it? Nope. I needed that and I think he did too. This time, I truly don't care what he does and I don't care how it works out. I know that I will be great with whatever happens because I've actually made a life for myself.

We all know we should detach, but it is hard and different for every person. Like pain, there are layers to it (like an onion). As DnJ said, it happens piecemeal. I have gotten the D papers. It was a bit of a gut punch even though I instigated it, but that quickly went away and I felt good about it. But then OD made it clear that it wouldn't happen without major drama and expense, so I let him undo it. I think the next time I'll still feel a punch, but it will dissipate even faster. I'm told you mourn the divorce even if you wanted it.

Take it day by day. It is an addiction. When it is accompanied with high drama (as my ending with OD was) then the addiction is more potent and lasts longer. When you are jonesing to contact him or mix it up with him, try to wait an hour. If you make that hour, make it three, if you make that, make it a day. Eventually the itch will stop. Every time I gave in to that itch I have regretted it.

Here's what I know. When you stop contacting them. They will contact you. OD messed with money and I freaked out. So he knew that's all he had to do. When I stopped freaking out, he stopped messing with money. Then he started with the lawyers and I freaked out. The next time he did it, I didn't respond at all. Guess what, he contacted me. I responded right away. Yes OD, if you want to talk to me you have to contact me yourself. Not do something crazy to make me contact you. When I see the cray cray, I go as silent as can be.

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DnJ, Peacetoday, Ownit, thank you all so much for this support. It warms my heart that people I don't even know are taking the time to offer it here, especially during the holidays. I'm still re-reading and sitting with all of it.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Emotional detachment. It is the uncoupling of your irrational emotional reactions to H and his behaviours. Being detached stops the uncontrolled dragging your feelings around with whatever is happening, being said, or being done by H.

Seeing this intellectually can help with the process - which is to feel and acknowledge those irrational feelings. To rationalize your emotions, as counterintuitive as that sounds.

My brain seems to be so slow in grasping this. But as you said, I can see I've made some progress. I can continue to work on observing my emotions but not letting them dictate how I react. I know I've made strides in this, because I often have to remind myself H hasn't seen this anguish, since I haven't externalized it in his presence. I'm thinking of it like this: As in meditation, I can become a detached observer of my own feelings and thoughts—without judging them, which seems to be the harder step for me too.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Indifference is the numbness that follows detachment. A non caring feeling towards one’s spouse. I found it to be so very helpful to do this in a compassionate manner. Finding compassionate indifference allows one to still care (our spouse is still a person after all), and not. I know sounds weird.

I have sometimes observed this feeling of numbness in myself, and it has both felt okay and scared me a little—I guess it's because it's the opposite of what I felt before all this happened. I think it's key for me to keep in mind indifference does not have to exclude compassion. But! This is key for me too: compassionate indifference also means giving up wishing I could step in and fix things.

This next part about setting aside time to feel what's going on is a little fuzzier to me.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Really. It disturbs, and uncouples the irrational connection between feelings and event (or pending event in this case). It also builds the realization that the feeling/event is not cause and effect.
What does it mean, I am asking myself, to separate my feelings surrounding, for example, my H potentially filing for D, from the event itself?

Originally Posted by OwnIt
For me, indifference is detachment without expectation. [...] We all know we should detach, but it is hard and different for every person. Like pain, there are layers to it (like an onion).


OwnIt, this is helpful to remember, too, because I know—as a person with perfectionist tendencies, as a person who very much does not see divorce as the answer in my marriage (it's certainly not going to fix the things H is struggling with, though it may push them to another relationship or area of his life)—if I am supposed to detach, then I'm like, okay, I need to do that right now, and I need to do it RIGHT. But I can only do it one day at a time.


All of this leads me here today: I can look back and see things I would have liked to have done differently in my M, and I have been working on what I can work on now, have spent a lot of time trying to understand my H's perspective in ways I never have before. I let him know I wanted to take the time to understand him (rather than respond defensively or dismiss his feelings). I took that time. I apologized for what I came to understand as my own failings in the M. H seemed to acknowledge that I am changing, but it's too late—that he's afraid things would go back to the way they were. And, as I mentioned in HopeCA's thread, though there isn't an OW as far as I know (or as far as our mutual friend knows), he's very much living a kind of fantasy life and receiving validation and appreciation from his new friends, who know nothing of his past.

So what more can I do right now for the M on my own? Isn't that where the letting go of control comes in? Where, as DnJ writes, I have to let my H take responsibility for his decisions and consequences? Isn't this the next step in what I do for the M and for the possibility of any future R with H (which I still want, I admit—I get a glimpse of how different things could be if he too can manage to continue to look at himself and confront his decisions and their consequences), which also happens to be what I do for myself?

That lingering fear: I don't want to look back on this time as I do now on my M and wish I would have done X or Y differently! But... I'm human. I at least need to feel like I'm doing my best right now—for H, for keeping any future possibilities open, and for myself.


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I also want to steal this quote from HopeCA's thread, because I sometimes feel pressure from others (and maybe sometimes I imagine it) to give up, and I am just not there. My H is for the first time beginning to recognize his own patterns in IC—is he taking responsibility for them? No. He's in rebellion and running mode, and all resentment and anger appears to be directed toward me. That he's stuck with his C this long is a miracle. I bet she senses she has to go very, very slowly with him. I want to have faith that a higher power will help him. When I find myself spiraling, I try to instead redirect energy toward prayer.

Originally Posted by BluWave
I get this feeling when I read through your journal, that divorce for you is the end - that you need to get him to turn around before this happens - I might be wrong - but if not then I am curious.

Are there some religious reasons behind you seeing divorce being the final nail in the coffin? Divorce is just a piece of paper, and if you dont want to give up, then you shouldn't have to - divorce regardless. But you need to come from a place of strength, and with your many concerns regarding how your husband is feeling, and how he is thinking, you are most likely not coming from there.

Show him, that you are capable of a life without him, because you were before you met him, and certainly you will be again - you already are.

Live life how you want to - dig deep down and feel yourself - who are you, and what do you want - not what does HE want.


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Hello cardinal

It is very good the idea of non-judging yourself and H. That’s quite a sage viewpoint you have, it will serve you well and leads to acceptance.

In terms of detachment finding a non judgemental attitude or outlook does give one a boost in all this.

You hit the nail right on the head about indifference. It’s numbness is at first - okay and scary. You know what indifference feels like now. Next time you can reinforce those realized feelings of numbness while still culturing compassion.

And yes, the release of trying to control is one of the key steps in this process.

Originally Posted by cardinal
... compassionate indifference also means giving up wishing I could step in and fix things.

Something to consider for you.

I found giving up something doesn’t really work. It’s impossible (or really really hard) to give up a desire. I wrote a lot about wishes, hope, and expectations and the ties between them all. It’s all desires, just with varying degrees of fantasy/reality and timeline/deadline or not.

For example, I wish I could step in and fix my XW. That is a desire I have. I have relegated it firmly into the wish category. It lives in the fantasy and highly improbably or impossible to happen realm. It is a wish, and no where close to a hope or expectation.

Hope is less wishful and more reality. Still a desire. Hope is born from the possibilities of the unknown and unwritten future.

Expectations are desires with a timeline or deadline. They are basically hopes that have a time frame, a deadline. The problem with that is a deadline is just that - a point when hope dies. Unmet expectations cause resentment which builds and builds. The only reasons hope would be unmet is if one places a deadline or timeline on it.

Hope lives in the realm between fantasy and reality, between expected impossibility and expected certainty. Some look upon hope as weak and remaining stuck. I assure you it is quite the opposite. Seeing the hope within a situation, sees the better possible futures and outcomes. One just needs to place their focus where it should be. I’m pretty sure you know where that is.

You need not give up on your desires; I don’t believe one can really extinguish them. However, one can acknowledge and categorize them, and learn how to live with them.

Originally Posted by cardinal
This next part about setting aside time to feel what's going on is a little fuzzier to me.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Really. It disturbs, and uncouples the irrational connection between feelings and event (or pending event in this case). It also builds the realization that the feeling/event is not cause and effect.

What does it mean, I am asking myself, to separate my feelings surrounding, for example, my H potentially filing for D, from the event itself?

The rational and purposeful uncoupling of our irrational emotions to a future event is one of the hardest things to learn. And is it ever worth the effort to figure out.

This uncoupling is similar to letting go of fear. Fear is easier to see; the links between a potential outcome and the feelings associated with it. Not caused by it - associated with it. You see the potential outcome hasn’t happened, and may never happen. But we are afraid of it, paralyzed by it. Fear is a tangled web of irrational and rational thoughts and feelings. Being accurate when untangling helps immensely.

If that event were to happen - what’s left to fear? It happened. Now it is just a concern and a problem (or not) which one can solve or resolve.

The idea of the possible future event triggers an emotional response. Much like how our spouse’s behaviour and actions do while we struggle to find detachment. That trigger from spouse to uncontrolled emotional response is what one is working on disrupting and basically re-wiring.

Forcing yourself to look at this at a time when your irrational response is not active allows for a different point of view. Much like hope, you can see other possible outcomes. One slowly gains control over their emotional reactions, breaking or uncoupling the event, the trigger, and the response.

Mental assertiveness - sword and shield.

Originally Posted by cardinal
That lingering fear: I don't want to look back on this time as I do now on my M and wish I would have done X or Y differently! But... I'm human. I at least need to feel like I'm doing my best right now—for H, for keeping any future possibilities open, and for myself.

Have faith.

Focus on you. Do the inner work. Become the best version of yourself. Be compassionate and find forgiveness.

All of that is for you!

I guarantee, you do that and you will not look back with regrets of time wasted, nor wish you had done x or y.

You will find H and your marriage are not even in the equation. And yet the very letting go and growth may well be the very thing that allows a future reconciliation to happen. Counterintuitive.

The unwanted path that all LBS’s were force upon is an incredible opportunity, one that most people will never experience. Walk your journey and find all the blessings that await you.

There was a time I felt I’d never ever say those words and see things that way. I’ve never been so wrong.

Have faith.

DnJ


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Thank you so much for this post, DnJ. The distinction you make between hope and expectation is one I hadn't been able to make in such a clear way before. I need to work on letting go of expectations while holding on to hope. I logged in because I thought I had more to say in response to your words, but now I'm feeling overwhelmed.

I'm returning home tomorrow, and I'm not ready to face H again, to face the situation. This trip was filled with memories of old H and old R, and I don't want to see new H—it feels like I'm foolishly returning to an environment that just opens me up to be hurt by him over and over again, which, I suppose, is why detachment on my part is so necessary. I was able to let my guard down a little while I've been away, and now I have to put it back up. I don't remember what detachment from H feels like in this moment, but I suppose re-entry will be h*ll and then I'll slowly remember how to feel a kind of compassionate numbness toward him again.

I am also thinking I wish I could be anything but numb with him. I think we had two different experiences of our SSM over time, but we didn't really talk about it, and when, during/right around BD, I told him how much I did desire him, it made him angry. It's too late, etc. I worry he doesn't see me as a person who is capable of desire now, and that's a 180 I can't enact with him, which is hard for me to accept. Is the idea that, in observing other changes I make in myself (becoming the best version of me for me), he might eventually believe there would be possibilities for change in that area of the R as well? I wish I could do more than truly apologize for my part in this aspect of our M, which I did.


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Happy New Year, all. I'm back in H-world again. Two things became clear to me when I walked in the door to our house yesterday afternoon (H was out, didn't show up until an hour ago.):

1. It's hard detaching when you're still sharing a small space with the person, and I need to be kind and patient with myself as a I strive for that.

2. The holiday vacation was so difficult because I was grieving the version of H I've known for 16 years, for not quite half of my life--I was in his hometown, and all the memories of him were so present, so real, I think I forgot temporarily that H does not exist anymore. He was there on the trip with me. I could summon him doing all the old H things I loved and admired.

Back in our home yesterday, I was reminded again that H is gone--I don't know if this new H is WH or MLCH or some combination, but he feels like a stranger most of the time. I wonder what the old H would say about him. Sometimes I think he is purposely trying to be the opposite of the H he was with me. He associates old H with unhappiness, therefore he must become new H, and it must be an H I wouldn't like (in his eyes, anyway). More justifying his decision? She wouldn't like me now because XYZ. But I don't think XYZ is going to make H happy in the long run either.

I was taking down the Christmas tree I'd decorated when H did get home. He walked through the room on his way to the bathroom and seemed uncomfortable talking to me--nervous maybe.

He asked how my parents were, barely pausing on his way, and I simply said, "They're good." I guess there's no need to give him full family updates like I normally would. I let him know I'd left a souvenir for him in the kitchen, a bottle of hot sauce from the restaurant he's been going to for 20+ years. He saw it and seemed appreciative.

I'm still struggling to find what it feels like to be compassionate and detached--what it feels like in my body. I'm left with questions after our brief exchange: Should I have said more? Should I have asked him how his holiday was? Should I have asked how his mom was, even though he didn't see his family? Is he spinning a story in his head that I don't care about him because I didn't ask? I'm sure he spins lots of untrue stories, so I know I shouldn't worry about that. I can't control the way he interprets things. But what is the level of engagement that leaves me feeling compassionate and not cold, that leaves me feeling secure in my own story, no matter how he spins it?


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HaWho had a live in h for a long time. She is a very good example of having a live in who lived in the basement in his "dorm room" for quite some time. He eventually moved out and they are now divorced, but she is a survivor. Her threads are well worth the time to read them.


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all your questions and thoughts are valid

If I did this or that?
would it make a difference
probably not-

some things may help you:
being patient, kind and compassionate
living your life
gal, being upbeat and fun may when appropriate..
being mysterious ect,
making a new life friends
activities,
staying busy
and being available at times when it appears he is doing the leading...when he wants to engage and letting go of him
finding support, grieving and healing

We do these to adjust to our new normal
and we can watch from a distance to see where our H land
You will get clues and you watch his actions



and it is definitely harder to live with them


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Thank you for these words of support, peace. I can imagine in the future I will be proud of myself if I can overall maintain patience, kindness, and compassion for H, even as I distance from him.

Job, thank you for pointing me to HaWho's threads. I've been reading them and thinking about the similarities and differences. My H hasn't proposed any activities together since BD or shown any kind of affection, but I think it's in his personality to block out all old life and focus on new life/new friends in order to do make that compartmentalizing easier, and in order to move forward with his decision. He did offer me a piece of candy, which, considering how much we used to enjoy buying/eating candy together, is the kind of tiny positive gesture I note from time to time—that, or initiating some small convo with me. I wish there was more, but that would probably only make detaching harder on my end.


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Hello cardinal

Originally Posted by cardinal
I don't remember what detachment from H feels like in this moment, but I suppose re-entry will be h*ll and then I'll slowly remember how to feel a kind of compassionate numbness toward him again.

I am also thinking I wish I could be anything but numb with him.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I'm still struggling to find what it feels like to be compassionate and detached--what it feels like in my body. I'm left with questions after our brief exchange: Should I have said more? Should I have asked him how his holiday was? Should I have asked how his mom was, even though he didn't see his family? Is he spinning a story in his head that I don't care about him because I didn't ask? I'm sure he spins lots of untrue stories, so I know I shouldn't worry about that. I can't control the way he interprets things. But what is the level of engagement that leaves me feeling compassionate and not cold, that leaves me feeling secure in my own story, no matter how he spins it?

Compassionate and detached.

Detached is your emotional response being under your control, as opposed to an uncontrolled reaction from his behaviours and emotional state. You emotional uncouple from him. It is similar to how one is intellectually detached.

We control our thoughts much easier than emotions. Our thoughts do get influenced by our emotions and even get away from us. However, one can get control back, and train one’s self to accomplish that quicker and more often. This, and time, helps gain detachment.

Once your emotions are not dragged about by H’s actions, you are on your way to finding indifference. The place of numbness towards H; the feeling of numb or more accurately the absence of feelings.

Indifference is weird and perfectly ok. The void created by one’s once so strong emotions for their spouse does take some getting use to. Other emotions, will seem much larger than they really are when next to this void. Flirtatious feelings will be amplified when contrasted to the numbness that now exists. Guard yourself against this - for the void is only temporary.

Nature abhors a vacuum, and this emotional vacuum is no exception. Vengeance, anger, hatred, attraction, will fill the empty space if one is not aware. And they loom large. Make the choice to fill the void with kindness, compassion, and empathy.

Your feelings towards H will be numb or placed away for safe keeping. Choosing compassionate detachment is harder, and so worth it.

With compassion and empathy, along with the understanding you gain from all you experience and see, letting go happens naturally and is less forced. Realizing one’s fears and finding acceptance are further steps along the path.

With such a compassionate and empathic start - that time of the emotional void - forgiveness is more imaginable and achievable.

And those stored away feelings for our spouse do/will return. They no longer haunt nor hurt. They exist, they are realized, they are felt, and they are ok.

I hope my map helps you, even though I did share much further of it than I original intended. However, it might answer your question.

My level of engagement with XW is nil. I am compassionate and not cold. And proud and secure in my story and life.

Compassionate detachment and forgiveness. Both are very worthy and achievable goals.

DnJ


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After reading more posts and thinking more about my H, I find myself trying to understand what I now see as my H's NGS and how that maybe intersects with MLC. Is what's happening with him a somewhat inevitable result of a lifetime of NGS or a combo of MLC/NGS? If anyone has any experience or insight with this in a partner or themselves, I would love to hear your thoughts.

I suspect this would have happened to him eventually no matter who he was married to. I can definitely see how confronting NGS in oneself could lead to MLC (though I don't think H knows about NGS or thinks of his own behavior in these terms, I think his crisis in part involves recognizing his behaviors have not actually made him happy, as he always believed himself to be the happiest person in the world).

I've found myself nodding along with aspects of various other posts: my H tended to avoid conflict because he said he didn't want to upset me and interfere with my work; he prided himself on being different than stereotypical guys and often discussed their behavior in a negative light; he was raised by a single mother who he's always focused on pleasing; most of his close friends have been women, etc.

I can see how he didn't have the skills to process feelings of sadness or anger or resentment, that he only knew to cope by hiding these feelings and by not acknowledging them, and how that probably contributed to the increase in outbursts of anger. To me, the anger seemed disproportionate to whatever was going on, and I think this attitude of mine made him feel like I was dismissing his anger. I thought he was making progress when, at one point a few years ago, he told me he realized he only grew more angry at himself when he expressed anger--that he felt he shouldn't ever be angry at me, or angry/sad in general, as he had a happy life. Of course, I now recognize how I started working to avoid conflict as well, because I didn't want to make him angry, since I couldn't understand the anger and didn't know how to resolve it.

In the past, he'd also expressed doubts that I really loved him, or that I was really happy, even when I assured him I did and was. I can see now how our SSM would make him doubt that, despite my other displays of affection, despite the other positives in our R, so I don't want to discount his feeling, but I also see now it might be part of a larger issue of low self esteem for him, as he would often worry about seeming like a "bad" guy, or a "typical" guy.

What else? I noticed his mom was quick to go from warm to cold with him if he disappointed her in some way, so I can see how maybe he's tied his self-worth to keeping the women in his life happy. A few years ago, she had a mental health crisis in her life that I think stemmed from her own people-pleasing issues, and I wonder if H is going through his own version of this now.

I recognized some of these nice guy tendencies in H when we married, but I never thought of them as having a potential downside. At that time, I admired how his mother was so important to him, how kind and loving he was, etc. I guess I'm thinking about all of this because, well, hindsight, but also because if I try to understand H, it helps me have more compassion for what he is going through. Otherwise, I find myself stuck wishing there was some way H could recognize and change these tendencies in himself without ending our M, and without running hard in the other direction, since he seems to have flipped from MNG to "I only think about me now!" mirror/alien H.

Maybe he has to go to this other extreme in order to find a middle ground for himself? That's the journey I hope he can make. That's the journey I can't help him with.

Then there's the fixer part of me wishing I could have known about NGS years ago, because if I'd understood the root of some of his behavior, I would have been able to respond to it myself in a more healthy way, and maybe we could have avoided everything escalating into MLC mode...


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cardinal,

A large majority of posters are fixers and trust me when I say this....we couldn't have fixed our situations because we aren't the ones that stunted the spouses who are in crisis. What happened to them happened when they were children and yes, they would have gone through a crisis whether it be w/us, someone else or they were living alone. The crisis was going to happen to them because of being stunted emotionally at an early stage.

What we can do is what you are doing right now, reading and educating yourself on MLC, depression, NGS, etc. It helps us better understand some of what they are going through. The scars of hurt are very deep within them and it takes a very long time for those scars to begin to bubble up at some point when the triggers are set into motion. Again, we couldn't have known that this was going to happen until we were hit w/the BD.

They have to go through the entire crisis to come out the other side. Some will come out more mature and more like the old selves, others will retain some of the quirky behavior and others will be lost forever, i.e., searching and being the old men/women in crisis who never actually grow up. Let's hope and pray that your spouse can navigate his crisis and come out the other side a whole, mature man who is more than ready to reconcile and be a wonderful husband to you once again.

Continue to educate yourself on MLC, depression, NGS, etc., but understand...you didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him. You have to accept the fact that you cannot fix him...he has to do it on his own. You can be a friend to him, listen to what he has to say and only offer up advice if he should ask for it. Right now, the most important lesson is to listen.

Dig deeper for patience and as you travel the path of self discovery for yourself, you will learn how to more patient and compassionate. Yes, there are going to be days when you would like to choke him...but those feelings will pass as you continue to observe from afar as to just how lost he is right now.

Hang in there!


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Try to avoid the analysis paralysis trap. It all becomes mental masturbation at a certain point. We all did it. We all try to intellectualize the response. To seek to understand. Hard to see it now, but you'd be better off trying to unlock the mysteries of the universe. Until he wants to figure out why he did this and how to fix it, none of it matters, except you of course. You always matter.

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DnJ, I so appreciate your taking the time to walk me through these concepts. Compassionate and detached. Sometimes I get lost in threads where compassion for a spouse seems to be lacking (and I understand how easy it is for that to happen—I struggle with it some days too!); your words are centering, grounding. I know I will read and re-read them on this journey, because I am not there yet.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Detached is your emotional response being under your control, as opposed to an uncontrolled reaction from his behaviours and emotional state. You emotional uncouple from him. It is similar to how one is intellectually detached.

[...]

Once your emotions are not dragged about by H’s actions, you are on your way to finding indifference. The place of numbness towards H; the feeling of numb or more accurately the absence of feelings.


I have come a long way in not letting my H's behaviors or moods control my actions. I feel pretty confident about that at the moment. I'm better at managing my emotional responses in that I don't let my emotions dictate my actions. But I haven't reached indifference, though I might sense it from time to time.

This feels especially important to me:

Originally Posted by DnJ
Vengeance, anger, hatred, attraction, will fill the empty space if one is not aware. And they loom large. Make the choice to fill the void with kindness, compassion, and empathy.

Your feelings towards H will be numb or placed away for safe keeping. Choosing compassionate detachment is harder, and so worth it.


I do not have to erase these feelings—I can't right now, anyway. I like the image of tucking them away for safe keeping.


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Job, I always appreciate your level-headed attitude!

Originally Posted by job
A large majority of posters are fixers and trust me when I say this....we couldn't have fixed our situations because we aren't the ones that stunted the spouses who are in crisis. What happened to them happened when they were children and yes, they would have gone through a crisis whether it be w/us, someone else or they were living alone.


And you cut right to the chase, OwnIt:

Originally Posted by OwnIt
Until he wants to figure out why he did this and how to fix it, none of it matters, except you of course.


True, true, though I hope it does increase my compassion, as long as I don't get caught up spending too much time trying to figure it out, as if there's an answer in the center of the maze.

I guess I still struggle with believing this is a crisis he's in, that it's not just, you know, me being the problem. On a rational level, I understand it can't be as simple as that—one day he suddenly realizes he's been unhappy for years and that he can't be happy with me; divorce; he's happy!; the end. But on an emotional level...

He's been slighter warmer and less shut-down with me since I've been back after the holidays. I think of the "Why the MLCer is so distant..." homework thread and Job's reminder: the main ingredient of MLC is depression. They will surface from time to time and seem friendlier, more normal. I look back over my journal for the past seven months and see this pattern repeat. (Yet I still think from time to time—wait—see, he's not depressed. He's not struggling. He never loved you. You're imagining all of this.)

I no longer see these friendlier interludes as indicative of any long-term positive trend, but the problem is that I know there is a tiny subconscious part of my brain that is collecting positive interactions and hoping, hoping, hoping, while the rest of my brain is saying, "THE D IS COMING! You will be disappointed. Why do you keep doing this?" It seems to run in the background like some computer virus...


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Originally Posted by cardinal
I no longer see these friendlier interludes as indicative of any long-term positive trend, but the problem is that I know there is a tiny subconscious part of my brain that is collecting positive interactions and hoping, hoping, hoping, while the rest of my brain is saying, "THE D IS COMING! You will be disappointed. Why do you keep doing this?" It seems to run in the background like some computer virus...

That is the roller coaster ride we all get on inadvertently from time to time. good times, bad times, the highs and the lows.....it is hard work to make a conscious effort to get off that roller coaster. but once you do, you'll be closer to finding peace.

hugs!


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Originally Posted by cardinal
I guess I still struggle with believing this is a crisis he's in, that it's not just, you know, me being the problem. On a rational level, I understand it can't be as simple as that—one day he suddenly realizes he's been unhappy for years and that he can't be happy with me; divorce; he's happy!; the end. But on an emotional level...

He's been slighter warmer and less shut-down with me since I've been back after the holidays. I think of the "Why the MLCer is so distant..." homework thread and Job's reminder: the main ingredient of MLC is depression. They will surface from time to time and seem friendlier, more normal. I look back over my journal for the past seven months and see this pattern repeat. (Yet I still think from time to time—wait—see, he's not depressed. He's not struggling. He never loved you. You're imagining all of this.)


Cardinal - You are not alone. Sometimes ...actually most the time my H seems so “normal” that I completely slip into that mindset and have to remind myself that’s he’s hit almost every MLC branch on the way down the tree. EA, extreme confusion, lying, extreme working out, motorcycle, extreme spending. It’s very hard for the human mind to make sense of the seemingly sudden irrational switch off of feelings pre and post BD. Your H sounds similar to mine in that he also won’t talk about anything let alone our R/M. (Pls correct me if I have that wrong) so my mind goes to the hurtful half truths and some truths that he spewed at BD...and then the self blame creeps in...” he never loved you”...”I’m using MLC as an excuse to ease the truth that I caused my marriage to fail”....I have to remind myself that regardless of any R issues THIS is NOT how you treat anyone let alone your life partner. The difficult thing to do is talk and solve issues...the easy thing to do is blame others and run. You are not crazy and you are not to blame.


Originally Posted by cardinal
I no longer see these friendlier interludes as indicative of any long-term positive trend, but the problem is that I know there is a tiny subconscious part of my brain that is collecting positive interactions and hoping, hoping, hoping, while the rest of my brain is saying, "THE D IS COMING! You will be disappointed. Why do you keep doing this?" It seems to run in the background like some computer virus...


Again, I guess with our situations being a month apart we are very close in the things we are thinking and feeling. He asks if I want food, tea, watches tv with me....then emails me beginning stages of S papers. Fixes my car headlight for me (without me asking) then makes a nasty comment. THIS is the emotional roller coaster I fully realize I have to get off of...I believe I have one foot off but need to remove the other. Everything takes time and I do my best to celebrate the small victories I achieve. I have *almost fully stopped snooping. I know, I know it only causes more hurt and makes me feel awful! Continue to give yourself a break and realize YOU did not cause this and control only what we can control. If only I could take my own advice!!! Lol Hugs

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Good Morning Cardinal

Kindly said it very well.

You are not alone in your feelings and doubts. We all have/had them.

You are correct it takes time to accept this on an emotional level. Acceptance is emotional understanding. And we all need a certain level of understanding before we can let go.

Something for you to find understanding with, and completely within your control: Hoping, hoping, hoping does not need to be tied to positive actions by H. In fact it shouldn’t be. That would be expectations and that will kill hope.

Hope is your’s! It lives within you! No one, and I mean NO ONE! ever gets to kill your hope. Don’t let anyone take away your hope.

Hope is desire. Good, sincere, desires. Hope lives in the possibilities of the unknown future. It has no time frame nor deadline.

One can get lost in hopeful fantasy. However, that is more a living in denial thing.

You can hope, and move forward.

Have a great day.

DnJ


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It is part of the process..hoping
Hold on the hope always..

That probably kept me going for many, many months after bomb
hope is a great thing

In the highest way , hope for spouses return,

If the spouse cant return Hope for healing for all and a peaceful parting

hope for your own healing , transformation, and the highest best path for your life with or without H
You will be lead..

Truth is , we wont 100 percent know until we know and it takes time ..really

DB offers some great solutions for the now
support
build a new life
be supportive to H
lean back..give space
protect assets
get legal advice..just to know..in case
heal..counseling..grieve

The LBS here as you will read many threads all seem to create better lives, either way
we land on our feet..if we follow the guidelines


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I agree w/Peace. The LBS do create better lives and we land on our feet. Each and every poster is a survivor whether they reconcile or not. We all have travel through the valley of being bomb dropped, the pain, hurt, anger frustration and the merry-go-round of emotions. Once we go through all of the grieving and not try to go around it, we begin to see the light of day, begin to see life w/clear eyes and then we begin to think w/our heads and not our hearts and we know what we need to do to survive, watch finances and look towards the future.

It does take a lot of time to get to the other side, but you will get there. Try not to second guess or wonder about the "what ifs". Don't try to analyze his every word or move because it will drive your crazy. It's important to you keep the focus on you and what you need to do to heal and survive.


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Originally Posted by cardinal

He's been slighter warmer and less shut-down with me since I've been back after the holidays. I think of the "Why the MLCer is so distant..." homework thread and Job's reminder: the main ingredient of MLC is depression. They will surface from time to time and seem friendlier, more normal. I look back over my journal for the past seven months and see this pattern repeat. (Yet I still think from time to time—wait—see, he's not depressed. He's not struggling. He never loved you. You're imagining all of this.)

I no longer see these friendlier interludes as indicative of any long-term positive trend, but the problem is that I know there is a tiny subconscious part of my brain that is collecting positive interactions and hoping, hoping, hoping, while the rest of my brain is saying, "THE D IS COMING! You will be disappointed. Why do you keep doing this?" It seems to run in the background like some computer virus...

Hi Cardinal - was thinking of you this morning so thought I’d drop a line.

Just wanted to share that I had my first full experience of H resurfacing and being friendlier and almost completely normal and actually talkative (not about himself tho). It really is confusing isn’t it? I’m sure he’ll turtle again....I’m currently doing the hoping while feeling another D bomb is on its way. Time will tell I guess.

Hope you’re doing ok.

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Oh, peace, job, DnJ, thank you for your words. As always, I am grateful, I am all ears. It is good to remember that moving forward and hope are not mutually exclusive. I need to hear that again and again in this stage.

Kindly, thank you for checking in on me. Your words helped me feel sane again too. I needed to read this:
Originally Posted by Kindly
I have to remind myself that regardless of any R issues THIS is NOT how you treat anyone let alone your life partner. The difficult thing to do is talk and solve issues...the easy thing to do is blame others and run.

And I feel less alone knowing our timelines are so close.
Originally Posted by cardinal
Your H sounds similar to mine in that he also won’t talk about anything let alone our R/M. (Pls correct me if I have that wrong) [...] Again, I guess with our situations being a month apart we are very close in the things we are thinking and feeling. He asks if I want food, tea, watches tv with me....then emails me beginning stages of S papers.

You are right—mine really doesn't talk much. There are periods of very minimal exchanges (good morning/have a good day/hey) and then there are periods of his offering me a bite of something or sharing a sentence or two about his day/life (GASP!). It's been a long time since he would even be in the same room while I'm watching TV/eating dinner, etc.. There's no good or easy version of this rollercoaster, is there? But yes, we have both made much progress in removing ourselves from it! Small victories, indeed. Hugs back at you!


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Good evening, everyone. Here I am reflecting on the last week, I suppose.

H was home nearly every night, which hasn’t been the case in months. He engaged me a few times to share brief bits about his work/activities and offered me some of the food he’d bought for himself—in other words, it was a friendly H week. Nothing to do with me, since I keep my PMA and behavior toward H consistent from week to week. I will never know what’s going on in his head or why his habits change when they do, but it is interesting to observe his moods around me go up and down, independent of my actions.

I noticed I was in a bad mood/funk for a couple of days. I acknowledged it and it passed. One thing I’m working on for me is to cut myself slack on my days off when I feel like I’m not being productive enough (yard work, job search, other to-do list items), or when I get home from work and “just” read, cook, watch Netflix, or sit with the cats. I used to feel like I was doing something wrong if I was home when H was at night—he should wonder what I’m doing and all that. But I think that was another form of pretzeling myself for him. Living with an MLCer (or whatever H is) while striving for empathy and calm over reactiveness and anger, living with and through BD—all that is tiring work.

I have always been happy spending time by myself, spending time at home, and GAL doesn’t have to mean partying all night like H has tended to do post-BD. I got a haircut and spent an evening with a friend and felt content. (I wonder if H ever feels quiet contentment now when he’s alone. His busy schedule means he doesn’t have to spend much time alone, of course.) If I was out every night and H, for example, never saw me watching TV, would he suddenly second-guess his desire to D? I would rather spend my time the way I want instead of worrying about how H sees x or y. I am trying to listen when my body and mind want quiet and rest.

I wish you all moments of contentment this week!


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Originally Posted by cardinal
One thing I’m working on for me is to cut myself slack on my days off when I feel like I’m not being productive enough (yard work, job search, other to-do list items), or when I get home from work and “just” read, cook, watch Netflix, or sit with the cats. I used to feel like I was doing something wrong if I was home when H was at night—he should wonder what I’m doing and all that. But I think that was another form of pretzeling myself for him. Living with an MLCer (or whatever H is) while striving for empathy and calm over reactiveness and anger, living with and through BD—all that is tiring work.

I have always been happy spending time by myself, spending time at home, and GAL doesn’t have to mean partying all night like H has tended to do post-BD. I got a haircut and spent an evening with a friend and felt content. (I wonder if H ever feels quiet contentment now when he’s alone. His busy schedule means he doesn’t have to spend much time alone, of course.) If I was out every night and H, for example, never saw me watching TV, would he suddenly second-guess his desire to D? I would rather spend my time the way I want instead of worrying about how H sees x or y. I am trying to listen when my body and mind want quiet and rest.



I've been struggling with that too. I'm a homebody by nature. Granted, I realize I have much worse days when we are in the home together and he's acting like a normal human person vs when he's behaving as the alien. I deal with the anger better than the sadness. But we had an ice storm then snow this past weekend and I made the decision I wasn't leaving the house. He could do as he pleased but I wasn't going any where. That's not a 180. It's probably not GALing the right way. But I had gone out Friday (all night) and I needed a recharge. He made himself sparse knowing I wasn't going anywhere. I've noticed he seems to have a lower tolerance for being forced with me in the house than I do. I can quietly relax in the MBR and it's like he's not even there to me, so I've been trying to do more of that.

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What I hear is you are taking care of yourself Cardinal and Wayfarer

Personally, I think it is the highest road to listen to ourselves

Truthfully, there are no real tactics to make a MLCer turn back, but being happy contented confident person
can be attractive and getting enough sleep and rest adds to that new person we are becoming

On the other Hand, H will not find the happiness he seeks by running and playing in replay
We rarely if ever hear on these boards the MLCer created this great life
over time, their new fantasy nife crumbles like sinking sand

Build your house on a strong rock


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Good morning!

I know H has gone to workshops on how to D in the past, and I want to make sure I feel like I have knowledge as well, so I'm meeting with a different lawyer tomorrow morning for a consult (no one in the area does free consults, unfortunately!). I'm hoping you all might be able to look over these and add any other questions I haven't thought of. I'll include them below.

Quick background: I had a consult with a lawyer who also does mediation a couple months after BD, and at that point I didn't have many specific questions; I remember she said it seemed reasonable that I would stay in the house (we rent, and I couldn't afford to rent a new apt/house in the current market—well, I couldn't afford to support myself in our own house without spousal support, either.) and that I would keep our pets. I have no idea what H's expectations are. We haven't split finances. We were married 10 years in November, and I don't know when he considers our date of separation to be, but BD was in June.

Questions for lawyer:
If I am served with papers, is there any case in which I would not have to respond (i.e. default), even if we are planning to come to an agreement? If I don't want this, what is the minimum I can do and still protect myself financially?

If I don't respond to papers, and we don't have an agreement yet, will D be finalized anyway?

If I do respond, what should I keep in mind as I formulate my budget for the expense declaration? Is there a recommended way to estimate car expenses? (We've never made a budget for anything, and I've just been planning on looking over my own expenses in the past several months for estimated budget, but I'm afraid I'll leave out important $).

Can I reasonably expect to stay in the house and keep the pets?

Given the disparity in our income, what is best/average/worst I can expect in terms of spousal support payments? Would this change if my current employment circumstances change before D is final?

Am I entitled to pension/retirement and social security payments?

Anything else I'm entitled to that I should know about?

Previous lawyer mentioned that if I don’t have job w/ health insurance by the time D would be final, judge won’t rush it along. What does this mean?


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There is never a case in which you are served with a lawsuit and don't file a response. Regardless of your plans, plans change. Don't rely on the promises of someone suing you or threatening to do so (a divorce is a lawsuit).

If you don't respond he can take a default and have things awarded in a manner that suits him and not you. Not a smart idea.

The lawyer should be able to help provide you with worksheets on expenses if those things matter. It may be that income disparity, length of marriage, and your ability to support yourself will be the deciding factors in whether you get alimony and how much. Some states use income tables.

Do you have disabilities or reasons you are not employable or require training to become employable/more employable?

Not sure a court awards a rental property to any one person. Try to work at least that out with him. Does he want the property still? Can you afford to rent it on your own (generally have to show debt to income ratios to qualify)?

Treatment of pets differs by state. Progressive states may view as similar to children, others will view as property. Does he want the pets? Don't make issues of things he doesn't even want. He will feel like he gave you something (for which he will expect a quid pro quo) and he may not even care. Just casually ask him some of this without telling him your thoughts if you can.

Also ask about social security. Depending on age, etc. you may be able to retain his as a benefit.

Military benefits?

Is there separate property (inheritance, property before marriage, stocks/bonds)? Will your state take this into account (mine will)?

I think the lawyer meant the court may not rush it to give you time to get a job with benefits.

Lawyers don't bite. Find one you like. Given minor assets and no children, find one that will give you a flat rate you are happy with if possible.

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So long as you have been married for 10 years, you would qualify to claim spousal benefits based on his work record. This assumes that 1/2 of his social security benefit would be more than your individual benefit - sometimes you would still be better off with your own benefit. But if he were to die, you could claim widow's benefits based on his social security, which would be 71.5-100% of his benefit depending on what age you claim it.

If you are in a community property state, you are entitled to a percentage of his pension based upon a formula (roughly years married during the years earning the pension divided by total years spent earning the pension divided by 2). I don't know what's normal in other states. For example - my ex worked for 28.5 years for his pension. I was married to him for 17.5 of those years (24 years total, but only 17.5 of those while he worked for that company). My percentage of his pension is roughly (pension amount Z x 17.5/28.5) x 0.5 = 30.7% of the total pension amount Z.

If he has moved out, you should be bale to keep your rental if the landlord deems you credit worthy on your own.

Pets he could fight you for, but will he?

Budget - girl, it's way past time to learn to keep a budget. Look at your average sending but also think about big annual or periodic expenses. Add up things like car registration, insurance payments, car repair estimates, veterinary bills, clothing expenses, etc. and divide by 12.

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Assuming of course that you're in the U.S.

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OwnIt, kml, thanks so much for these thoughts. I'll expand a bit more on points you brought up:

Progressive community property state, yes. No separate property. I received a grant at one time, but it went into our savings account, so I'm sure it's community property too.

House/pets: I really have no idea if H will want pets or to stay in the house. He hasn't moved out and hasn't paid much attention to either since BD, but I can see him not wanting to face the reality of moving out and other changes a D would necessitate from him. I want to be ready for the possibility that he would suddenly insist on staying in house with pets, since I have no idea what to expect of him anymore. We've lived here for a long time with no rent increase, and the landlord is wonderful. I'm sure he knows I want the pets, but I'm not sure what he thinks my feelings are about the house.

Income and and budgeting: without going into too much detail, I'll say that I teach at the college level very part-time and in my field full-time jobs are non-existent; PT does not begin to pay for a life here. H has always supported me and encouraged me to pursue my own projects in between teaching gigs, so I was not prepared at all for the sudden possibility of having to support myself entirely. Right before BD I got a PT minimum wage job to help us save more money, and I've since increased hours to full-time, which would only cover current rent and a bit more, which is why I need spousal support, at least in the meantime. I could also look into getting a roommate if I needed to. Moving out will only mean higher rent. I've had a couple of interviews for career jobs and am hopeful I will be able to find something that will support me in the next six months.

H was really relaxed about money and never wanted to make a budget--it's an argument I let him win. What did I care--I trusted him completely! Now of course it's a problem that I've never had access to our savings account (!). I have been making a list of bills that I'll need to budget for as they come up.


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Are you sure that you and your h have a savings account? If you aren't sure, check with the bank. If it is a joint account, you should be able to get info on it. Are you aware if your H has an IRA account in addition to his normal retirement?

Also, be sure to ask about health insurance.


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You are moving in the right direction and a good Divorce L will guide you and answer all those questions

You seem like you will have opportunities with a good FT job in the future with your education and a positive mindset, something will open for you...

As for now, the L will let you know exactly what you stand to get as support and alimony ..

Hang in there

I was so worried I would have nothing after D and have to raise my 2 school age children with a minimum waged job
I had not worked in years at that time and was aa stay at home MOm

But
All worked out perfectly and better than I could have imagined..today I run our once shared business and XH lives far away

hang in there..


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job and peace, thank you for the support. Our savings account was opened by his dad as a gift when we married, only in his name though. I never thought anything of that of course. We put all of our wedding money in it and have used it since.

I too worry a lot about money now. It’s scary to go from relative financial stability to worrying about my ability to pay rent. I guess I can always move out of the state, leave the life I’ve built here behind, and live with my parents in an emergency, so there’s that. It feels unfair that he isn’t facing this kind of uncertainty.

I’m probably feeling resentful because I’m circling around to anger at the situation again—having one of those days when I can’t believe this is happening, can’t believe we’re barely talking, can’t believe he doesn’t seem to miss at least the friendship we had. The possibility of ever reconciling feels so far away when we are living as distant roommates. I was reading about couples who D and remarry, and it seems like such a small percentage overall, statistically. But then I also thought: What percentage of people who D are dbing? I think that makes a difference, at least in growth for the LBS. What percentage of divorces involve MLC? A friend is going through an “amicable” divorce after months of MC, in which they’ve both decided to D. Imagine!

I don’t want to lose hope, so I’ve been trying to find my PMA again. Last night I had a dream H did something mean and I started yelling, Who are you? while shaking and hitting him, as if I could snap him out of this back into the man I know. Not much interpretation required there—I know this is what I’ve wanted to do even as I maintain a calm front and strive for empathy!


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Originally Posted by cardinal


I’m probably feeling resentful because I’m circling around to anger at the situation again—having one of those days when I can’t believe this is happening, can’t believe we’re barely talking, can’t believe he doesn’t seem to miss at least the friendship we had. The possibility of ever reconciling feels so far away when we are living as distant roommates. I was reading about couples who D and remarry, and it seems like such a small percentage overall, statistically. But then I also thought: What percentage of people who D are dbing? I think that makes a difference, at least in growth for the LBS. What percentage of divorces involve MLC? !

Cardinal, I’ve been feeling the exact same way for the last couple of days as I interview L etc...it just hits me sometimes and seems so unreal and R seems like an impossibility because of the roommate status too. I think for me what hurts the most is trying so hard to detach when he’s right there and I just want to have a reasonable conversation with him (orANY conversation for that matter) knowing that I can’t. I feel like you are correct when you brought up how many people who D are dbing....cause I’ve given this some thought too and believe that most people either wouldn’t take the time to figure out what was really going on and or have the patience and guidance that we are getting from eachother on this site.

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Originally Posted by cardinal
Last night I had a dream H did something mean and I started yelling, Who are you? while shaking and hitting him, as if I could snap him out of this back into the man I know. Not much interpretation required there—I know this is what I’ve wanted to do even as I maintain a calm front and strive for empathy!


Lol!! This made me laugh! I’ve been having dreams about H also. I’m at a way better place now but I’m still not sleeping as well as before. I think about us too much. I read this site too much. Sometimes it feels necessary to keep thinking about certain issues until I have new clarity, yet other times everything just feels so overwhelming.

Don’t let your anger take over. Accept the fact that it is happening. And it’s probably not a totally bad thing that it happened. As messed up as my current M is, I still honestly appreciate my H’s BD. It was a wake up call.


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Kindly and Wooba--thank you for getting it! I'm glad at least my dream made you laugh, Wooba. smile Sometimes in recounting something H said or did to someone else, I'm able to detach and find some unlikely humor in the situation. Kindly, I think you're right that most people wouldn't take the time to figure out what's really going on/around/under BD. If I wouldn't have found DR and started reading more on relationships and negative sentiment override, etc., I would have been more apt to just accept divorce as nonsensical but inevitable, and to believe everything he said at BD about me and about our relationship, even when it seemed not to add up. (And I do still struggle with that from time to time, because it's hard not to passively internalize the statements of someone you have spent years trusting unconditionally.).

Wooba, you sound like you're further along in acceptance than I am! I too feel that BD was a wake-up call, that we needed changes in our relationship. For the first time, I'm able to understand what those changes need to be and how to move toward them. The thing I'm not quite embracing yet is that H sees BD as the end, rather than the beginning of a much stronger, more communicative M. I see so much possibility!


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Good morning. It gives me comfort to read about those of you who have been bundled up and experiencing snow. I miss snow, but it is cold here today.

I talked with a friend and got a little glimpse into recent H: he told them he's cutting back on drinking and didn't drink when they went out (which explains why he's been home a lot more post-holidays and also, I think, why he's been less distant and cold with me—he's probably feeling better about himself). I sensed his euphoria post-BD was starting to fracture about 5 months in, when he was still in teen mode (I can do what I want!) but seemed more angry/frustrated in the middle of this freedom rather than euphoric. 7 months in, maybe he is going to start taking better care of himself. Maybe eventually this will lead to introspection, to progress with his IC.

Is he entering a new phase of replay? A pause? A temporary break in what might be depression? I think the answer is that it's useless to try to pinpoint, and that I will know only in retrospect. But it seems natural nonetheless to try to mark off time in some way, to try to understand how he is feeling at this point in his journey, even if I have no way of knowing when or how it will end.

He also said he barely sees me because I'm gone all the time. I don't think I've been gone that much, but I hope this is a sign I am doing something right, that I have made progress in detaching, if he senses I have my own life, am not waiting around to talk to him, etc.

They asked where he was on filing, and he said he's been too busy at work to do it. They didn't really buy this. Now that I know from my lawyer consult neither of us has to fill out financial/asset disclosure forms until after the initial filing/response (and that we're pretty much on our own timeline as far as doing so) I do wonder what's stopping him. He knows all he has to do is check a few boxes. (It could be anything and nothing.)

Today I am trying to sort all of my feelings—expectations from hopes. I was sad a lot this week. I felt pressure (from everywhere and nowhere) to give up hope for a possible future R. I hear DnJ saying, don't let anyone take away your hope! Early on I took the advice in DR and from my coach to keep track of any positives, even small ones, and to keep doing what works. So I realize I have trained myself to observe every little thing. That is a habit. Over time I have realized his reactions will go up and down, but this does not mean I need to change my course or way of interacting with him. I am now coaching myself to detach from these observations as much as I can, and to have no expectations. But sometimes all I can do in the moment is recognize that I have not completely managed to separate my hopes from expectations quite yet. I know there is part of me that still hopes he won't file, still thinks even then, six more months is a good chunk of time, and anything could happen.

One day at a time.


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Good morning, all. I am in some need of guidance this week, if you're reading.

After my little insights on Friday, if you can even call them that (well, I definitely think the confirmation that he's cut back drastically on drinking, which I'd already observed, counts), I entered curiously into the three-day weekend, wondering if H would keep up his new pattern of staying home or go back to his post-BD schedule of staying out late (or not coming home).

Not only did he stay in at night and much of the day, but he engaged me in the longest and most enjoyable conversation we've had since BD 7 months ago, just talking about a thing we both loved and were excited about. Like old times. Like old H. He made eye contact a few times. I kept thinking the convo was over, he would go into the other room, and then come back and re-initiate it. I was occupied with my own work, but every time he engaged me, I made it a point to give him my full attention and let him choose to either continue or end the conversation. It ended with him giving me a book of his to borrow that he'd said at the beginning of the convo he was planning to read—he'd just bought it for his ipad, he said, so I could take it. (This felt so much like something he would've done when we were dating.)

He found other little ways over the last few days to engage with me when his norm is avoiding anything more than hellos. Let me know bits of his schedule. For the first time in months, said he was going to the store and asked me if I needed anything. Has been increasingly affectionate with the pets in contrast to his usual indifference. I left for the store at one point and didn't say anything, since I've long-adopted his leaving-without-saying-anything behavior.

During the convo, all my love for him came to the surface again, and I realized I am going through all this no matter the outcome because I cannot choose not to. I still love him so much.

I also realized I have gotten good at maintaining indifference toward alien H, to his coldness, but I am not as well-equipped to maintain that indifference when facing, unexpectedly, a change in that behavior for the better. I know my hopes have gotten higher—I was in a wonderful mood all weekend, and now I feel sort of mad and disappointed. I still expect him to file. I recognize that it's fantasy that he won't, one in a million. But I find myself more invested in the other possibility that, if he does, maybe before it is final, his feelings will change.

It is hard to not see all of these little developments as positive, even as I wish I could remain more indifferent to them internally.

I have so much empathy for those of you who are constantly getting warm, friendly spouses, only to have them switch back. I'm not used to this friendliness, to not feeling resentment and anger emanating from him. I think I need to double down on always letting him engage me, focusing on my own life, etc. Maybe he really is noticing that I'm doing that. And if not, well, it's good for me anyway. Reading Gerda's words on canbird's thread about marathons vs. sprints and adjusting vision from days/weeks/months to years is helpful. I just haven't gotten there yet.

Any thoughts or encouragement would be much appreciated. I hope you all are hanging in there.


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Hello cardinal

Originally Posted by cardinal
Today I am trying to sort all of my feelings—expectations from hopes. I was sad a lot this week. I felt pressure (from everywhere and nowhere) to give up hope for a possible future R. I hear DnJ saying, don't let anyone take away your hope!

I do empathize with your feelings of giving up on hope for a possible future R.

Don’t let anyone take away your hope. (Hmmm that does sound like good advice. I’d listen to that guy. He also sounds rather dashing and handsome. Hahahahaha.)

The pressure you feel to give up hope is normal. You are looking within to your expectations and hopes. What you are looking upon is your desires. Then cataloging them - wishes, hopes, and expectations. Acknowledge and validate where and what each desire is; fantasy, time based, etc...

A lot of the pressure one feels comes from unmet desires; from expectations. If you look at what is driving your pressure I think you will find things like - I thought he’d be further along by now, therefore it must be over or not going to happen. Bah! Remove the timeframe. Expectations are hope with a timeline. Remove the time reference and make them hopes.

This is a hurdle everyone faces along their path. Fears get stirred up and mix into this as well. One makes irrational connections and leaps in logic and emotions. Remain intellectual while working through this cataloging. It takes time. And is well worth it.

Getting a solid grasp upon your hopes helps with detachment and dealing with H’s cold then friendly mood shifts. Like you are seeing this week.

H stayed home and engaged in one of his longest and enjoyable conversations since BD. That is good. You did well conversing with him, and acknowledging his good behaviour - giving him your full attention when he is behaving and deserving of it. Keep you expectations at zero.

You want to encourage the good behaviour and ignore the bad. I would read that book he offered to you. At some future time the two of you might just talk about it. When he asks if you need anything from the store, it’s ok to ask for something or even suggest going along. Just keep thing light and without pressure.

A few more tidbit of DnJ guidance if you like:

Quote
During the convo, all my love for him came to the surface again, and I realized I am going through all this no matter the outcome because I cannot wont choose not to. I still love him so much.

A more accurate statement probably is:

Quote
During the convo, all my love for him came to the surface again, and I realized I am going through all this no matter the outcome because I cannot choose not want to. I still love him so much.

There is nothing wrong with choosing to stand. Like hope - no one gets to take away your right to choose.

Cannot choose - no way. You are not weak. You can and are choosing. And I believe choosing very well!

Indifference is a milestone upon the LBS path, not a final destination. Yes those feelings do surface and then get placed away again. Eventually the indifference becomes longer and longer.

I found that after letting go, working through fear, finding acceptance and forgiveness, my feelings of love can and do return without the pain and sadness they dredged up while in thick of things. I do love W/XW in an indifferent kind of way.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I also realized I have gotten good at maintaining indifference toward alien H, to his coldness, but I am not as well-equipped to maintain that indifference when facing, unexpectedly, a change in that behaviour for the better. I know my hopes have gotten higher—I was in a wonderful mood all weekend, and now I feel sort of mad and disappointed. I still expect him to file. I recognize that it's fantasy that he won't, one in a million. But I find myself more invested in the other possibility that, if he does, maybe before it is final, his feelings will change.

Yes maintaining indifference to changes in behaviour takes time to figure out.

Your feelings remaining neutral is one part. The other part is keeping your expectations from growing.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I know my hopes have gotten higher

Hopes seem to get higher because they are feeling more real - a sign of moving a desire from hope to expectation.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I was in a wonderful mood all weekend, and now I feel sort of mad and disappointed. I still expect him to file. I recognize that it's fantasy that he won't, one in a million.

A couple of things.

You expect him to file. Why? Set expectations to zero. Hope he doesn’t and keep moving forward.

A fantasy if he doesn’t. One in a million. Again why? Because you expect him to file.

Both of these - expectation and fantasy - turn them into hopes.

Do you see how expecting him to file places a deadline on your hope? And a deadline does just that - kills hope.

The expecting him to file also moves your hope of no filing into the fantasy realm, which bring in 1 in a million thinking.

Best to just keep hope alive and move forward. And by the way, all of what you are doing, is part of figuring out how to keep hope alive. So well done on looking inward.

And yes, this is a marathon not a sprint. Focus on you and keep deadlines out of your healing and growth. This will take as long as it takes.

Hang in there. You are doing fine.

DnJ


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I went through about 5 years of this before I kicked him out. They cycle so badly.

My suggestion is to keep those expectations at zero and keep doing what you have been doing. Remember DB is based on them taking notice of you making positive changes. Keep giving him space. Treat him like the friendly barista, but mirror him. No pressure. Keep working on you and making sure you are doing self care and finding outlets for you. Don't pretzel or walk on eggshells. It feels awful and it doesn't help.

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DnJ- I think I’ll have to read your post several times later when I have more time. Hopes/expectation/fantasy....all muddled together right now. I’m sure there is lots of wisdom in there so I will have to slowly chew through that. smile

Cardinal- enjoy the nice moments. But keep it simply that- enjoy the present but let it go. My H resurfaces too but I know it’s just a matter of time before he goes back to his abyss again. Nothing against him, and I know it’s not about me. Like you, I feel my love for him too at those moments. Oh how I wish those moments could last. But it’s like saying how I wish tomorrow wasn’t Monday. I know Monday will come, just like I know my old H will be gone again.

Keep doing what you’re doing, until one day H comes back fully, or until you are ready to say goodbye. Time is your friend.


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DnJ, Wooba, Ownit... thank you for your words here. They've helped me through the week, as has the support everyone has given on others' threads as well.

Own, if I find myself second-guessing any small action I'm about to take, whatever it is, I hear your words: Don't walk on eggshells, and then I get on with it.

Wooba, you wrote to enjoy the present and let it go. I had a wonderful moment of that early in the week, when H came home after work and I lay in bed listening to him move about the house—making something to eat in the kitchen, coughing, etc. Everyday sounds. Or what used to be everyday sounds, then, you know, BD, then long periods of coming home very late. I am not used to his being home so much. In bed in the dark, I just felt deep gratitude for those sounds in the moment, with no expectation of whether I would hear them in the future or not. I listened and was glad. (In another thread, you also reminded me I better be detaching whether or not there's an OW, and you're right! I'm finding it harder to detach from the more normal, friendly H's actions. To observe without expectation.)

DnJ, thank you so much for the time you spend turning over my own words and holding up to me so that I may see them in a new way. I find it so, so helpful! I can tell I need to learn a different way of thinking and processing, and you're guiding me through it. I hope you'll allow me to mull it over here at more length!

Originally Posted by DnJ
You are looking within to your expectations and hopes. What you are looking upon is your desires. Then cataloging them - wishes, hopes, and expectations. Acknowledge and validate where and what each desire is; fantasy, time based, etc...


This, I mean, I am slowly learning how to do this cataloguing. You offer a helpful concrete example, which happens to be true in my case:

Originally Posted by DnJ
If you look at what is driving your pressure I think you will find things like - I thought he’d be further along by now, therefore it must be over or not going to happen. Bah! Remove the timeframe. Expectations are hope with a timeline. Remove the time reference and make them hopes.


Okay, I'm starting to get it, I think. But how do I remove the time reference? What does it mean to remove it? What does that look like exactly in terms of what I think to myself? You start to break it down further for me:

Originally Posted by DnJ
You expect him to file. Why? Set expectations to zero. Hope he doesn’t and keep moving forward.

A fantasy if he doesn’t. One in a million. Again why? Because you expect him to file.

Both of these - expectation and fantasy - turn them into hopes.


Hopes do not have deadlines. Expectations have deadlines, because once I associate the likelihood of an event happening/not happening with a timeline, well, that places a deadline on it. So instead of focusing my thoughts on, for example, whether or not or when filing will or will not happen (look at all those references to time!), I should focus on a more general hope for reconciliation. Not: "I've made it through another day without papers, I hope it won't happen this week," (and, yes, fear drives much of that focus), but, simply, "I hope for reconciliation. I hope one day (not a day far or soon, but just one day) for reconciliation."

Is that what it looks like to change an expectation to a hope?

I think the idea of filing and all the timelines that go along with it (30 days for this, 60 days for this, can be final in x number of days, etc.) has made me all the more prone to obsess about time, unfortunately. As if the court can impose their timeline on my personal hopes. As if the law has a say in when my hope should become instead expectation or fantasy. Isn't that kind of arbitrary, when it comes to matters like love and faith and compassion and hope?

This makes me think about when we were dating and then apart for some time many years ago. I didn't spend each day thinking, well, if we're not back together by X day, it must mean Y. Now it seems I'm stuck in "What does it mean it's been X number of days?" It means nothing or it means something—but does that even matter? Back then I just hoped, and one day it happened.

Am I getting closer, DnJ, to understanding how to hope?


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Hello cardinal

Originally Posted by cardinal
Am I getting closer, DnJ, to understanding how to hope?

Oh yes. You are doing wonderful.

Originally Posted by cardinal
Hopes do not have deadlines. Expectations have deadlines, because once I associate the likelihood of an event happening/not happening with a timeline, well, that places a deadline on it. So instead of focusing my thoughts on, for example, whether or not or when filing will or will not happen (look at all those references to time!), I should focus on a more general hope for reconciliation. Not: "I've made it through another day without papers, I hope it won't happen this week," (and, yes, fear drives much of that focus), but, simply, "I hope for reconciliation. I hope one day (not a day far or soon, but just one day) for reconciliation."

Is that what it looks like to change an expectation to a hope?

Yes. Very well done.

You make a good and valid point about the courts and their timelines. There are deadlines that need to be met, so time does drive some of our actions.

Originally Posted by cardinal
As if the law has a say in when my hope should become instead expectation or fantasy. Isn't that kind of arbitrary, when it comes to matters like love and faith and compassion and hope?

Definitely! That is a big reason to treat it like a business deal. Keep that separate from your hopes; it’s just business.

You also pointed out fear and how it drives the focus at times. Fear is another killer of hope.

I dug around and found my post about hope.

I figured one about fear may be helpful as well.

And while I was looking about I stumbled upon a neat little thing on sugar. smile


Hope, Wishes, and Expectations

Fear

Sweet Happiness


DnJ


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I want to call out Grace's thread here, and compare it to mine, to illustrate a few points.

Grace is charging ahead and her H is running scared, big time scared. That is what DB predicts will happen. Is it real, is it temporary, does it mean anything, who knows?

I have not charged ahead first out of hope/expectation, then fear, then legal advice not to. OD is scared but still can't bring himself to do anything about it because he feels no pressure to have to do something.

Don't see a few small changes and lose your perspective. You can sit around hoping forever, and it probably won't do any good, and it probably won't bring him back.

Moving on with your life and finding your own happiness does not foreclose the possibility of a future reconciliation, unless you want it to. What does that look like? It is different for every single person. More than anything, I think it is about creating your own boundaries for how someone in your life is going to treat you, or not be in your life anymore.

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Good morning--here at least, it is morning. The first thing I noticed when I walked outside was that the sky looked the same as it has lately, but there is a distinct feeling of spring, and not the chill of winter, in the air. A reminder that I will be able to return to gardening soon, no matter what else is going on in my life.

DnJ, thank you for sharing those posts! I started with the one on fear and then kept reading that thread. I think it may be helpful to me to visit more of your older threads as well. It is comforting to me to think of this journey as an opportunity to discover and redefine and strengthen my beliefs.

Here is what I know at this moment: I believe in the man I married. What does that mean, I ask myself. Hmm... I believe deep down he's not gone or permanently changed into a different person. At his core he is kind, loving, generous. He is not sure who he is—I think his sense of self has never been strong. He is trying, for the first time, to find out who he is. When I married him I meant it to be for life, and I still believe that. Neither of us knew how to nurture our relationship long-term, or how to grow in it. The possibilities don't end there for me, though; instead I recognize how much more is possible. I wish I would have recognized that years ago, but I didn't. I think of the plants in my yard that return year after year, with little care from me. Rain, sunlight, not much else. How much more would they thrive with ongoing care and attention?

In my mind the thing that makes me question these beliefs is really my ego. What I think other people think of my hope, or my decision to stand. What possibilities (or lack of) they see. That is probably fear too.

I like very much the idea of standing but not standing still. Part of this journey for me will, I suspect, be about being more aware of and grounded in my own beliefs and values. Do my actions reflect them? For example: I am committed to being a better, more compassionate listener. When I think of how quiet I've been around H in the last seven months, how I've been able to listen in the times that H has spoken without arguing my own points or trying to force my perspective on him, I feel good about that.

Originally Posted by OwnIt
Don't see a few small changes and lose your perspective.

Yes, this is a challenge for me. I still feel new to this. I think I have continued to project detachment in the face of his small changes even if I am not there yet internally all the time. Still, it feels right to meet his small kindness with small kindness, at least in attitude—to reinforce his kinder behavior by not drawing closer but also by not drawing further away. Maybe that is me trying to figure out compassionate indifference too. I have been following Grace's threads--she has managed to keep her perspective through all of this, is that what you mean? It seems so to me.

Originally Posted by OwnIt
You can sit around hoping forever, and it probably won't do any good, and it probably won't bring him back.

Maybe it won't do him any good--probably my internal hopes and wishes won't have any affect on him. How could they? That is what I hear. But I also want to give myself permission to hope—and to not put my own life on hold while I do.


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Originally Posted by cardinal
Here is what I know at this moment: I believe in the man I married. What does that mean, I ask myself. Hmm... I believe deep down he's not gone or permanently changed into a different person. At his core he is kind, loving, generous. He is not sure who he is—I think his sense of self has never been strong. He is trying, for the first time, to find out who he is. When I married him I meant it to be for life, and I still believe that. Neither of us knew how to nurture our relationship long-term, or how to grow in it.

To quote from the Last Jedi- Luke said to Leia, “No one is ever really gone.”

But H might be a new person with bits of his old self. That’s how I see it lately. The alien may leave one day but something inside him will be different. Good or bad, or a combo of both.


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Originally Posted by wooba
To quote from the Last Jedi- Luke said to Leia, “No one is ever really gone.”

But H might be a new person with bits of his old self. That’s how I see it lately. The alien may leave one day but something inside him will be different. Good or bad, or a combo of both.

This is comforting, Wooba—thank you. H's more normal behavior has continued. He even asked, "How are you?" after saying hi at one point. I don't remember the last time he asked me that, much less seemed ready for me to respond. I don't feel like I'm dealing with alien teenage-H right now.

All of this led to me awake in the middle of the night, hearing him cough in his room, and wanting so, so badly to go in there and initiate some kind of intimacy. Under normal circumstances, i.e. no BD, no potential MLC—let's say I had been brave enough to change something in myself and in our M, that's what I would do, and it would be a big 180. He would be so surprised. I don't suppose there's any way that me making a move would be advisable until the dynamic between us is completely different, right? I let it play out in my mind anyway—what did I expect would happen if I did something like that? I don't imagine it changing his mind or snapping him out of anything, but I do imagine that it would feel good for me to be more confident in that way, to express a part of myself I couldn't express with him before. To express a part of myself I'd lost touch with. I lay awake for a while and went back to sleep.

I've been trying to just observe my feelings and thoughts the last few days. I've had moments of feeling very sad and moments of feeling fearful, caught up in what-ifs. I cried after not crying in a while. Usually friends tell me they can't believe I've been so strong through all of this, that they would have flipped out. Some days I am strong. Some days not.

I've had a few moments of strength and clarity the past few days too. I've been thinking about what it means to have perspective in my particular situation. One definition: a viewpoint. A viewpoint that depends on where I am and where I am looking.

In moments when feelings aren't at the forefront, I seem to lock into a larger perspective, a longer view: All I have to do right now is focus on right now, and make sure my actions are in line with my core values and beliefs. All I have to do is keep becoming a better person because I want to. He is the one who will have to pursue me in the future. I am wearing my wedding ring and that says everything I can't say out loud to him right now, or it says enough.

And: I do believe it is in his character to apologize, to recognize, to turn things around, because he did do this once in a big way, and it paved the way for our M.

Faith, calm, focus. Appreciate those moments when they come.


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In terms of physical intimacy, early on I’ve reached out (total 180 for me) and been both turned down and accepted. I think his “surprise” and my new found sexual attitude made very little difference to the progress of our M. But I would say it was a good experiment on my part, for me to test myself and know what I am capable of doing sexually now. Because that was one thing on my list I wanted to work on and do a 180. Lately I don’t initiate anymore, mainly because 1. I’m losing that intimate connection with him as he hovers between unpredictable and total withdrawn mode. 2. I feel like when he initiates sex it’s just for his own physical needs and I’m being used. Or he’s drunk.

I like what you said about viewpoint. That what I try to keep in mind also. The big picture versus the immediate reaction/result/feeling.

Stay strong!


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Hi wooba, I don't know your story, but it brought to mind something I read previously about codependents. My guess is that most of us here are and that while people don't talk about this issue, my guess is that most of us go through a period of hysterical bonding after we discover affairs/feel the loss of our spouse. One thing I read early on from codependents anonymous was: codependents accept sexual attention when they want love. Again, I don't know your story, but often a sexual exploration around these types of events is related to codependency. If you think that could be an issue, I'd check out the list on that site. I found it extremely enlightening and it explained a lot of the feelings I have felt throughout my life.

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Originally Posted by OwnIt
Hi wooba, I don't know your story, but it brought to mind something I read previously about codependents. My guess is that most of us here are and that while people don't talk about this issue, my guess is that most of us go through a period of hysterical bonding after we discover affairs/feel the loss of our spouse. One thing I read early on from codependents anonymous was: codependents accept sexual attention when they want love. Again, I don't know your story, but often a sexual exploration around these types of events is related to codependency. If you think that could be an issue, I'd check out the list on that site. I found it extremely enlightening and it explained a lot of the feelings I have felt throughout my life.

You are definitely right! It wasn’t until coming to this forum that I’ve learned about codependency and that I was living it. Sex is a tough area for me- we had a SSM and something we fought about all the time. after BD I dropped all my expectations when we have physical intimacy, but that probably still wasn’t the healthiest thing to do. But I also know that it’s something I’d like to work on for myself- being able to turn my mother/wife mode off and just be a woman with desires.


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Hi Cardinal and Wooba,

Just to join in the conversation on the intimacy part-- we had a SSM, and me wanting to turn the mother/caretaker mode off and the desire mode on has been a big part of my own GAL and who I want to be post-sitch, no matter what happens. I have spent a lot of time reading and thinking about this (recommend Emily Nagoski and Esther Perel if you're interested) and have focused a lot on how I can bring desire (and feeling desirable) back into my life regardless of H, and have been doing many of those things (working out and losing weight being a big one).

Anyhoo, I know you guys have probably been following my sitch but I do have to say that re-starting the physical intimacy with H has been overall a big positive for ME (though jury's still out on how it affects, if it does, our MR). He had started initiating these middle-of-the-night slam bam thank you maams, which I'd been responsive to, but then felt kind of unfulfilled and he felt all sad and guilty, so I decided no more of those, thank you very much. It was actually when we had THAT conversation-- me telling him I don't want that anymore, no fun for me-- that we had sex for the first time outside of that context.

I had a similar situation as the one you, Cardinal, describe above a couple of weeks ago, when H was still sleeping in the office. We came home from drinks, I was tipsy, he went into his room and I went into mine. Then I was thinking exactly like you were and thought, what the hey. What's the worst thing that can happen? I went in there and it was fun and I'm glad it did it-- but it was for ME, not for him or out of some hope that it would re-spark our R. I want to know that I have that in me, that I'm not the frigid b**ch he'd made me out to be. I also told him explicitly that us being physically intimate didn't mean I was wanting to choose to R with him (this is before I had to tell him that in discernment counseling), but it was for my educational purposes only.

So... I guess my advice would be to really break it down for yourself. If you're really wanting to explore that side of yourself, your H is a good person to do that with as long as you don't have any expectations and neither does he. I figured H is the only one around right now, I'm not embarrassed with him, as long as I can engage without being sad it isn't romantic ML or having expectations that it will lead to something, it does bring value to me.

On the other hand, you might have read Wayfarer's post on someone else's thread (I think it made it to RTC's quotes) about the muffin shop being closed. I totally get and respect that too. It is just for me that this part of me has been repressed or whatever for so long that it is important for *me* to be able to see myself as a sexual being. And I don't know that I need to do it any more now... but the times we did was worth it.


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Hi, may and wooba—thanks so much for sharing your thoughts here! I do see this as a decision that will be different for each person, and reading your perspectives is helpful, if anything in reminding me I'm not alone. Like both of you, I think, I want to be able to turn desire mode on in my life, and to really get in touch with that side of myself that used to be much stronger and braver. It is a 180 I want to make with or without H.

Since H has moved from totally withdrawn mode like your H now, wooba, to more friendly, I think about initiating a lot more. But I also know this shift in him has made me realize how far I still have to go in releasing any expectations surrounding him and R.

may, I have been following your sitch, and I'm sorry I don't post more! I've been feeling ill-equipped to give any advice to anyone lately. I seem to remember your H also having resentment about your expressing desire for him now, after years of the SSM. Right around/after BD, when I expressed to my H that I did/do desire him, he seemed really hurt and angry that I hadn't expressed this to him enough before. I think he'd been holding on to a lot of resentment I wasn't aware of, so I was met with the too little, too late attitude. Words vs. actions though--I never tried to act differently. Hmm.

I suspect I'm not detached enough to try anything without expectations at this point; I could imagine his not being responsive to it affecting me more than it should. But also, that's the kind of thing that hurt our R in the past—I wasn't brave enough to initiate! He didn't initiate, but he had expectations and didn't communicate them to me. Grr. Circles, again...


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Originally Posted by cardinal

may, I have been following your sitch, and I'm sorry I don't post more! I've been feeling ill-equipped to give any advice to anyone lately. I seem to remember your H also having resentment about your expressing desire for him now, after years of the SSM. Right around/after BD, when I expressed to my H that I did/do desire him, he seemed really hurt and angry that I hadn't expressed this to him enough before. I think he'd been holding on to a lot of resentment I wasn't aware of, so I was met with the too little, too late attitude. Words vs. actions though--I never tried to act differently. Hmm.

I suspect I'm not detached enough to try anything without expectations at this point; I could imagine his not being responsive to it affecting me more than it should. But also, that's the kind of thing that hurt our R in the past—I wasn't brave enough to initiate! He didn't initiate, but he had expectations and didn't communicate them to me. Grr. Circles, again...

My H basically reacted the same way, he told me that being physically intimate does not translate into being connected to me again, and he was still hurt that I pushed him away all these years. But I know that I am not 100% to be blamed on this, because he definitely did things that made him less desirable for me, and did not communicate to me on certain things when our M was deteriorating. Ultimately he would have to look at himself and admit/accept his missteps in the M for him to stop blaming me entirely for SSM. But that’s a whole other story....

With that said, I almost want to encourage you to experiment for yourself. Other vets may vehemently disagree with me though....ha!!! Test yourself. Be brave and initiate. Be prepared to be hurt because you said you’re not detached enough. It might put you back into square one in terms of DBing. But then you might learn more about yourself afterwards. Whatever H will think, it doesn’t matter. Its not about him, it’s about you.


BD: Sep 2019
D in progress
wooba #2883402 01/31/20 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by wooba
Ultimately he would have to look at himself and admit/accept his missteps in the M for him to stop blaming me entirely for SSM. But that’s a whole other story....

Yes, this is key, right? I'm thinking of what you said yesterday on may's thread too about their rewriting history and being unable to look in the mirror.
Originally Posted by wooba
With that said, I almost want to encourage you to experiment for yourself. Other vets may vehemently disagree with me though....ha!!!

No one has disagreed with you yet! Ha. I'm going to see if my feelings shift in the next week or so, talk it over with my IC. I do feel like if I am only focusing on my growth, it would be something to be open to. I feel more strongly that I would want to do it for ME. I am feeling the confident woman who seduced my H in the first place coming back. I want to embrace that woman again. But... it also seems anti-DB? I don't know!


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wooba #2883438 01/31/20 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by cardinal
may, I have been following your sitch, and I'm sorry I don't post more! I've been feeling ill-equipped to give any advice to anyone lately. I seem to remember your H also having resentment about your expressing desire for him now, after years of the SSM. Right around/after BD, when I expressed to my H that I did/do desire him, he seemed really hurt and angry that I hadn't expressed this to him enough before. I think he'd been holding on to a lot of resentment I wasn't aware of, so I was met with the too little, too late attitude. Words vs. actions though--I never tried to act differently. Hmm.

Yes, my H got all angry when I started talking about my desire, too little, too late, etc etc. Very similar to what Wooba says above. That he could *never* imagine having sex with me again, and until actually the final BD a month ago now (dang! already a month!) the only time we were intimate were these weird, quickie middle of the night encounters that he would initiate and then mostly feel all sad about afterwards. (eye roll) Now, we've been intimate several times since then and it is way hotter than anything we had before, except maybe at the beginning of our R. He has expressed a lot of surprise, like who is this new May, both in the actions and in talking about it.

Originally Posted by wooba
With that said, I almost want to encourage you to experiment for yourself. Other vets may vehemently disagree with me though....ha!!! Test yourself. Be brave and initiate. Be prepared to be hurt because you said you’re not detached enough. It might put you back into square one in terms of DBing. But then you might learn more about yourself afterwards. Whatever H will think, it doesn’t matter. Its not about him, it’s about you.

I mean, I decided to experiment for myself and I'm glad I did. Honestly, 100 percent, I really don't care if he's cake eating or it is anti-DB or it makes a future R with him less likely. This is for ME and he's the only one around I can do this with at the moment. I absolutely feel more confident and sexy and in my own body, and this is a feeling I had lost a long time ago and am really glad to see again for myself, nothing to do with H. In fact, I feel more confident about getting back out there in the dating game eventually because of it, proving to MYSELF I still have it in me. To me, it is basically a GAL activity. But I know a lot of people would not see it that way and that's cool too. Just another area where we all have to figure out what is right for ourselves.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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