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Originally Posted by cardinal
Last night I had a dream H did something mean and I started yelling, Who are you? while shaking and hitting him, as if I could snap him out of this back into the man I know. Not much interpretation required there—I know this is what I’ve wanted to do even as I maintain a calm front and strive for empathy!


Lol!! This made me laugh! I’ve been having dreams about H also. I’m at a way better place now but I’m still not sleeping as well as before. I think about us too much. I read this site too much. Sometimes it feels necessary to keep thinking about certain issues until I have new clarity, yet other times everything just feels so overwhelming.

Don’t let your anger take over. Accept the fact that it is happening. And it’s probably not a totally bad thing that it happened. As messed up as my current M is, I still honestly appreciate my H’s BD. It was a wake up call.


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Kindly and Wooba--thank you for getting it! I'm glad at least my dream made you laugh, Wooba. smile Sometimes in recounting something H said or did to someone else, I'm able to detach and find some unlikely humor in the situation. Kindly, I think you're right that most people wouldn't take the time to figure out what's really going on/around/under BD. If I wouldn't have found DR and started reading more on relationships and negative sentiment override, etc., I would have been more apt to just accept divorce as nonsensical but inevitable, and to believe everything he said at BD about me and about our relationship, even when it seemed not to add up. (And I do still struggle with that from time to time, because it's hard not to passively internalize the statements of someone you have spent years trusting unconditionally.).

Wooba, you sound like you're further along in acceptance than I am! I too feel that BD was a wake-up call, that we needed changes in our relationship. For the first time, I'm able to understand what those changes need to be and how to move toward them. The thing I'm not quite embracing yet is that H sees BD as the end, rather than the beginning of a much stronger, more communicative M. I see so much possibility!


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Good morning. It gives me comfort to read about those of you who have been bundled up and experiencing snow. I miss snow, but it is cold here today.

I talked with a friend and got a little glimpse into recent H: he told them he's cutting back on drinking and didn't drink when they went out (which explains why he's been home a lot more post-holidays and also, I think, why he's been less distant and cold with me—he's probably feeling better about himself). I sensed his euphoria post-BD was starting to fracture about 5 months in, when he was still in teen mode (I can do what I want!) but seemed more angry/frustrated in the middle of this freedom rather than euphoric. 7 months in, maybe he is going to start taking better care of himself. Maybe eventually this will lead to introspection, to progress with his IC.

Is he entering a new phase of replay? A pause? A temporary break in what might be depression? I think the answer is that it's useless to try to pinpoint, and that I will know only in retrospect. But it seems natural nonetheless to try to mark off time in some way, to try to understand how he is feeling at this point in his journey, even if I have no way of knowing when or how it will end.

He also said he barely sees me because I'm gone all the time. I don't think I've been gone that much, but I hope this is a sign I am doing something right, that I have made progress in detaching, if he senses I have my own life, am not waiting around to talk to him, etc.

They asked where he was on filing, and he said he's been too busy at work to do it. They didn't really buy this. Now that I know from my lawyer consult neither of us has to fill out financial/asset disclosure forms until after the initial filing/response (and that we're pretty much on our own timeline as far as doing so) I do wonder what's stopping him. He knows all he has to do is check a few boxes. (It could be anything and nothing.)

Today I am trying to sort all of my feelings—expectations from hopes. I was sad a lot this week. I felt pressure (from everywhere and nowhere) to give up hope for a possible future R. I hear DnJ saying, don't let anyone take away your hope! Early on I took the advice in DR and from my coach to keep track of any positives, even small ones, and to keep doing what works. So I realize I have trained myself to observe every little thing. That is a habit. Over time I have realized his reactions will go up and down, but this does not mean I need to change my course or way of interacting with him. I am now coaching myself to detach from these observations as much as I can, and to have no expectations. But sometimes all I can do in the moment is recognize that I have not completely managed to separate my hopes from expectations quite yet. I know there is part of me that still hopes he won't file, still thinks even then, six more months is a good chunk of time, and anything could happen.

One day at a time.


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Good morning, all. I am in some need of guidance this week, if you're reading.

After my little insights on Friday, if you can even call them that (well, I definitely think the confirmation that he's cut back drastically on drinking, which I'd already observed, counts), I entered curiously into the three-day weekend, wondering if H would keep up his new pattern of staying home or go back to his post-BD schedule of staying out late (or not coming home).

Not only did he stay in at night and much of the day, but he engaged me in the longest and most enjoyable conversation we've had since BD 7 months ago, just talking about a thing we both loved and were excited about. Like old times. Like old H. He made eye contact a few times. I kept thinking the convo was over, he would go into the other room, and then come back and re-initiate it. I was occupied with my own work, but every time he engaged me, I made it a point to give him my full attention and let him choose to either continue or end the conversation. It ended with him giving me a book of his to borrow that he'd said at the beginning of the convo he was planning to read—he'd just bought it for his ipad, he said, so I could take it. (This felt so much like something he would've done when we were dating.)

He found other little ways over the last few days to engage with me when his norm is avoiding anything more than hellos. Let me know bits of his schedule. For the first time in months, said he was going to the store and asked me if I needed anything. Has been increasingly affectionate with the pets in contrast to his usual indifference. I left for the store at one point and didn't say anything, since I've long-adopted his leaving-without-saying-anything behavior.

During the convo, all my love for him came to the surface again, and I realized I am going through all this no matter the outcome because I cannot choose not to. I still love him so much.

I also realized I have gotten good at maintaining indifference toward alien H, to his coldness, but I am not as well-equipped to maintain that indifference when facing, unexpectedly, a change in that behavior for the better. I know my hopes have gotten higher—I was in a wonderful mood all weekend, and now I feel sort of mad and disappointed. I still expect him to file. I recognize that it's fantasy that he won't, one in a million. But I find myself more invested in the other possibility that, if he does, maybe before it is final, his feelings will change.

It is hard to not see all of these little developments as positive, even as I wish I could remain more indifferent to them internally.

I have so much empathy for those of you who are constantly getting warm, friendly spouses, only to have them switch back. I'm not used to this friendliness, to not feeling resentment and anger emanating from him. I think I need to double down on always letting him engage me, focusing on my own life, etc. Maybe he really is noticing that I'm doing that. And if not, well, it's good for me anyway. Reading Gerda's words on canbird's thread about marathons vs. sprints and adjusting vision from days/weeks/months to years is helpful. I just haven't gotten there yet.

Any thoughts or encouragement would be much appreciated. I hope you all are hanging in there.


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Hello cardinal

Originally Posted by cardinal
Today I am trying to sort all of my feelings—expectations from hopes. I was sad a lot this week. I felt pressure (from everywhere and nowhere) to give up hope for a possible future R. I hear DnJ saying, don't let anyone take away your hope!

I do empathize with your feelings of giving up on hope for a possible future R.

Don’t let anyone take away your hope. (Hmmm that does sound like good advice. I’d listen to that guy. He also sounds rather dashing and handsome. Hahahahaha.)

The pressure you feel to give up hope is normal. You are looking within to your expectations and hopes. What you are looking upon is your desires. Then cataloging them - wishes, hopes, and expectations. Acknowledge and validate where and what each desire is; fantasy, time based, etc...

A lot of the pressure one feels comes from unmet desires; from expectations. If you look at what is driving your pressure I think you will find things like - I thought he’d be further along by now, therefore it must be over or not going to happen. Bah! Remove the timeframe. Expectations are hope with a timeline. Remove the time reference and make them hopes.

This is a hurdle everyone faces along their path. Fears get stirred up and mix into this as well. One makes irrational connections and leaps in logic and emotions. Remain intellectual while working through this cataloging. It takes time. And is well worth it.

Getting a solid grasp upon your hopes helps with detachment and dealing with H’s cold then friendly mood shifts. Like you are seeing this week.

H stayed home and engaged in one of his longest and enjoyable conversations since BD. That is good. You did well conversing with him, and acknowledging his good behaviour - giving him your full attention when he is behaving and deserving of it. Keep you expectations at zero.

You want to encourage the good behaviour and ignore the bad. I would read that book he offered to you. At some future time the two of you might just talk about it. When he asks if you need anything from the store, it’s ok to ask for something or even suggest going along. Just keep thing light and without pressure.

A few more tidbit of DnJ guidance if you like:

Quote
During the convo, all my love for him came to the surface again, and I realized I am going through all this no matter the outcome because I cannot wont choose not to. I still love him so much.

A more accurate statement probably is:

Quote
During the convo, all my love for him came to the surface again, and I realized I am going through all this no matter the outcome because I cannot choose not want to. I still love him so much.

There is nothing wrong with choosing to stand. Like hope - no one gets to take away your right to choose.

Cannot choose - no way. You are not weak. You can and are choosing. And I believe choosing very well!

Indifference is a milestone upon the LBS path, not a final destination. Yes those feelings do surface and then get placed away again. Eventually the indifference becomes longer and longer.

I found that after letting go, working through fear, finding acceptance and forgiveness, my feelings of love can and do return without the pain and sadness they dredged up while in thick of things. I do love W/XW in an indifferent kind of way.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I also realized I have gotten good at maintaining indifference toward alien H, to his coldness, but I am not as well-equipped to maintain that indifference when facing, unexpectedly, a change in that behaviour for the better. I know my hopes have gotten higher—I was in a wonderful mood all weekend, and now I feel sort of mad and disappointed. I still expect him to file. I recognize that it's fantasy that he won't, one in a million. But I find myself more invested in the other possibility that, if he does, maybe before it is final, his feelings will change.

Yes maintaining indifference to changes in behaviour takes time to figure out.

Your feelings remaining neutral is one part. The other part is keeping your expectations from growing.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I know my hopes have gotten higher

Hopes seem to get higher because they are feeling more real - a sign of moving a desire from hope to expectation.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I was in a wonderful mood all weekend, and now I feel sort of mad and disappointed. I still expect him to file. I recognize that it's fantasy that he won't, one in a million.

A couple of things.

You expect him to file. Why? Set expectations to zero. Hope he doesn’t and keep moving forward.

A fantasy if he doesn’t. One in a million. Again why? Because you expect him to file.

Both of these - expectation and fantasy - turn them into hopes.

Do you see how expecting him to file places a deadline on your hope? And a deadline does just that - kills hope.

The expecting him to file also moves your hope of no filing into the fantasy realm, which bring in 1 in a million thinking.

Best to just keep hope alive and move forward. And by the way, all of what you are doing, is part of figuring out how to keep hope alive. So well done on looking inward.

And yes, this is a marathon not a sprint. Focus on you and keep deadlines out of your healing and growth. This will take as long as it takes.

Hang in there. You are doing fine.

DnJ


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I went through about 5 years of this before I kicked him out. They cycle so badly.

My suggestion is to keep those expectations at zero and keep doing what you have been doing. Remember DB is based on them taking notice of you making positive changes. Keep giving him space. Treat him like the friendly barista, but mirror him. No pressure. Keep working on you and making sure you are doing self care and finding outlets for you. Don't pretzel or walk on eggshells. It feels awful and it doesn't help.

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DnJ- I think I’ll have to read your post several times later when I have more time. Hopes/expectation/fantasy....all muddled together right now. I’m sure there is lots of wisdom in there so I will have to slowly chew through that. smile

Cardinal- enjoy the nice moments. But keep it simply that- enjoy the present but let it go. My H resurfaces too but I know it’s just a matter of time before he goes back to his abyss again. Nothing against him, and I know it’s not about me. Like you, I feel my love for him too at those moments. Oh how I wish those moments could last. But it’s like saying how I wish tomorrow wasn’t Monday. I know Monday will come, just like I know my old H will be gone again.

Keep doing what you’re doing, until one day H comes back fully, or until you are ready to say goodbye. Time is your friend.


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DnJ, Wooba, Ownit... thank you for your words here. They've helped me through the week, as has the support everyone has given on others' threads as well.

Own, if I find myself second-guessing any small action I'm about to take, whatever it is, I hear your words: Don't walk on eggshells, and then I get on with it.

Wooba, you wrote to enjoy the present and let it go. I had a wonderful moment of that early in the week, when H came home after work and I lay in bed listening to him move about the house—making something to eat in the kitchen, coughing, etc. Everyday sounds. Or what used to be everyday sounds, then, you know, BD, then long periods of coming home very late. I am not used to his being home so much. In bed in the dark, I just felt deep gratitude for those sounds in the moment, with no expectation of whether I would hear them in the future or not. I listened and was glad. (In another thread, you also reminded me I better be detaching whether or not there's an OW, and you're right! I'm finding it harder to detach from the more normal, friendly H's actions. To observe without expectation.)

DnJ, thank you so much for the time you spend turning over my own words and holding up to me so that I may see them in a new way. I find it so, so helpful! I can tell I need to learn a different way of thinking and processing, and you're guiding me through it. I hope you'll allow me to mull it over here at more length!

Originally Posted by DnJ
You are looking within to your expectations and hopes. What you are looking upon is your desires. Then cataloging them - wishes, hopes, and expectations. Acknowledge and validate where and what each desire is; fantasy, time based, etc...


This, I mean, I am slowly learning how to do this cataloguing. You offer a helpful concrete example, which happens to be true in my case:

Originally Posted by DnJ
If you look at what is driving your pressure I think you will find things like - I thought he’d be further along by now, therefore it must be over or not going to happen. Bah! Remove the timeframe. Expectations are hope with a timeline. Remove the time reference and make them hopes.


Okay, I'm starting to get it, I think. But how do I remove the time reference? What does it mean to remove it? What does that look like exactly in terms of what I think to myself? You start to break it down further for me:

Originally Posted by DnJ
You expect him to file. Why? Set expectations to zero. Hope he doesn’t and keep moving forward.

A fantasy if he doesn’t. One in a million. Again why? Because you expect him to file.

Both of these - expectation and fantasy - turn them into hopes.


Hopes do not have deadlines. Expectations have deadlines, because once I associate the likelihood of an event happening/not happening with a timeline, well, that places a deadline on it. So instead of focusing my thoughts on, for example, whether or not or when filing will or will not happen (look at all those references to time!), I should focus on a more general hope for reconciliation. Not: "I've made it through another day without papers, I hope it won't happen this week," (and, yes, fear drives much of that focus), but, simply, "I hope for reconciliation. I hope one day (not a day far or soon, but just one day) for reconciliation."

Is that what it looks like to change an expectation to a hope?

I think the idea of filing and all the timelines that go along with it (30 days for this, 60 days for this, can be final in x number of days, etc.) has made me all the more prone to obsess about time, unfortunately. As if the court can impose their timeline on my personal hopes. As if the law has a say in when my hope should become instead expectation or fantasy. Isn't that kind of arbitrary, when it comes to matters like love and faith and compassion and hope?

This makes me think about when we were dating and then apart for some time many years ago. I didn't spend each day thinking, well, if we're not back together by X day, it must mean Y. Now it seems I'm stuck in "What does it mean it's been X number of days?" It means nothing or it means something—but does that even matter? Back then I just hoped, and one day it happened.

Am I getting closer, DnJ, to understanding how to hope?


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Hello cardinal

Originally Posted by cardinal
Am I getting closer, DnJ, to understanding how to hope?

Oh yes. You are doing wonderful.

Originally Posted by cardinal
Hopes do not have deadlines. Expectations have deadlines, because once I associate the likelihood of an event happening/not happening with a timeline, well, that places a deadline on it. So instead of focusing my thoughts on, for example, whether or not or when filing will or will not happen (look at all those references to time!), I should focus on a more general hope for reconciliation. Not: "I've made it through another day without papers, I hope it won't happen this week," (and, yes, fear drives much of that focus), but, simply, "I hope for reconciliation. I hope one day (not a day far or soon, but just one day) for reconciliation."

Is that what it looks like to change an expectation to a hope?

Yes. Very well done.

You make a good and valid point about the courts and their timelines. There are deadlines that need to be met, so time does drive some of our actions.

Originally Posted by cardinal
As if the law has a say in when my hope should become instead expectation or fantasy. Isn't that kind of arbitrary, when it comes to matters like love and faith and compassion and hope?

Definitely! That is a big reason to treat it like a business deal. Keep that separate from your hopes; it’s just business.

You also pointed out fear and how it drives the focus at times. Fear is another killer of hope.

I dug around and found my post about hope.

I figured one about fear may be helpful as well.

And while I was looking about I stumbled upon a neat little thing on sugar. smile


Hope, Wishes, and Expectations

Fear

Sweet Happiness


DnJ


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I want to call out Grace's thread here, and compare it to mine, to illustrate a few points.

Grace is charging ahead and her H is running scared, big time scared. That is what DB predicts will happen. Is it real, is it temporary, does it mean anything, who knows?

I have not charged ahead first out of hope/expectation, then fear, then legal advice not to. OD is scared but still can't bring himself to do anything about it because he feels no pressure to have to do something.

Don't see a few small changes and lose your perspective. You can sit around hoping forever, and it probably won't do any good, and it probably won't bring him back.

Moving on with your life and finding your own happiness does not foreclose the possibility of a future reconciliation, unless you want it to. What does that look like? It is different for every single person. More than anything, I think it is about creating your own boundaries for how someone in your life is going to treat you, or not be in your life anymore.

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