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Good morning--here at least, it is morning. The first thing I noticed when I walked outside was that the sky looked the same as it has lately, but there is a distinct feeling of spring, and not the chill of winter, in the air. A reminder that I will be able to return to gardening soon, no matter what else is going on in my life.

DnJ, thank you for sharing those posts! I started with the one on fear and then kept reading that thread. I think it may be helpful to me to visit more of your older threads as well. It is comforting to me to think of this journey as an opportunity to discover and redefine and strengthen my beliefs.

Here is what I know at this moment: I believe in the man I married. What does that mean, I ask myself. Hmm... I believe deep down he's not gone or permanently changed into a different person. At his core he is kind, loving, generous. He is not sure who he is—I think his sense of self has never been strong. He is trying, for the first time, to find out who he is. When I married him I meant it to be for life, and I still believe that. Neither of us knew how to nurture our relationship long-term, or how to grow in it. The possibilities don't end there for me, though; instead I recognize how much more is possible. I wish I would have recognized that years ago, but I didn't. I think of the plants in my yard that return year after year, with little care from me. Rain, sunlight, not much else. How much more would they thrive with ongoing care and attention?

In my mind the thing that makes me question these beliefs is really my ego. What I think other people think of my hope, or my decision to stand. What possibilities (or lack of) they see. That is probably fear too.

I like very much the idea of standing but not standing still. Part of this journey for me will, I suspect, be about being more aware of and grounded in my own beliefs and values. Do my actions reflect them? For example: I am committed to being a better, more compassionate listener. When I think of how quiet I've been around H in the last seven months, how I've been able to listen in the times that H has spoken without arguing my own points or trying to force my perspective on him, I feel good about that.

Originally Posted by OwnIt
Don't see a few small changes and lose your perspective.

Yes, this is a challenge for me. I still feel new to this. I think I have continued to project detachment in the face of his small changes even if I am not there yet internally all the time. Still, it feels right to meet his small kindness with small kindness, at least in attitude—to reinforce his kinder behavior by not drawing closer but also by not drawing further away. Maybe that is me trying to figure out compassionate indifference too. I have been following Grace's threads--she has managed to keep her perspective through all of this, is that what you mean? It seems so to me.

Originally Posted by OwnIt
You can sit around hoping forever, and it probably won't do any good, and it probably won't bring him back.

Maybe it won't do him any good--probably my internal hopes and wishes won't have any affect on him. How could they? That is what I hear. But I also want to give myself permission to hope—and to not put my own life on hold while I do.


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Originally Posted by cardinal
Here is what I know at this moment: I believe in the man I married. What does that mean, I ask myself. Hmm... I believe deep down he's not gone or permanently changed into a different person. At his core he is kind, loving, generous. He is not sure who he is—I think his sense of self has never been strong. He is trying, for the first time, to find out who he is. When I married him I meant it to be for life, and I still believe that. Neither of us knew how to nurture our relationship long-term, or how to grow in it.

To quote from the Last Jedi- Luke said to Leia, “No one is ever really gone.”

But H might be a new person with bits of his old self. That’s how I see it lately. The alien may leave one day but something inside him will be different. Good or bad, or a combo of both.


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wooba #2882813 01/28/20 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by wooba
To quote from the Last Jedi- Luke said to Leia, “No one is ever really gone.”

But H might be a new person with bits of his old self. That’s how I see it lately. The alien may leave one day but something inside him will be different. Good or bad, or a combo of both.

This is comforting, Wooba—thank you. H's more normal behavior has continued. He even asked, "How are you?" after saying hi at one point. I don't remember the last time he asked me that, much less seemed ready for me to respond. I don't feel like I'm dealing with alien teenage-H right now.

All of this led to me awake in the middle of the night, hearing him cough in his room, and wanting so, so badly to go in there and initiate some kind of intimacy. Under normal circumstances, i.e. no BD, no potential MLC—let's say I had been brave enough to change something in myself and in our M, that's what I would do, and it would be a big 180. He would be so surprised. I don't suppose there's any way that me making a move would be advisable until the dynamic between us is completely different, right? I let it play out in my mind anyway—what did I expect would happen if I did something like that? I don't imagine it changing his mind or snapping him out of anything, but I do imagine that it would feel good for me to be more confident in that way, to express a part of myself I couldn't express with him before. To express a part of myself I'd lost touch with. I lay awake for a while and went back to sleep.

I've been trying to just observe my feelings and thoughts the last few days. I've had moments of feeling very sad and moments of feeling fearful, caught up in what-ifs. I cried after not crying in a while. Usually friends tell me they can't believe I've been so strong through all of this, that they would have flipped out. Some days I am strong. Some days not.

I've had a few moments of strength and clarity the past few days too. I've been thinking about what it means to have perspective in my particular situation. One definition: a viewpoint. A viewpoint that depends on where I am and where I am looking.

In moments when feelings aren't at the forefront, I seem to lock into a larger perspective, a longer view: All I have to do right now is focus on right now, and make sure my actions are in line with my core values and beliefs. All I have to do is keep becoming a better person because I want to. He is the one who will have to pursue me in the future. I am wearing my wedding ring and that says everything I can't say out loud to him right now, or it says enough.

And: I do believe it is in his character to apologize, to recognize, to turn things around, because he did do this once in a big way, and it paved the way for our M.

Faith, calm, focus. Appreciate those moments when they come.


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In terms of physical intimacy, early on I’ve reached out (total 180 for me) and been both turned down and accepted. I think his “surprise” and my new found sexual attitude made very little difference to the progress of our M. But I would say it was a good experiment on my part, for me to test myself and know what I am capable of doing sexually now. Because that was one thing on my list I wanted to work on and do a 180. Lately I don’t initiate anymore, mainly because 1. I’m losing that intimate connection with him as he hovers between unpredictable and total withdrawn mode. 2. I feel like when he initiates sex it’s just for his own physical needs and I’m being used. Or he’s drunk.

I like what you said about viewpoint. That what I try to keep in mind also. The big picture versus the immediate reaction/result/feeling.

Stay strong!


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Hi wooba, I don't know your story, but it brought to mind something I read previously about codependents. My guess is that most of us here are and that while people don't talk about this issue, my guess is that most of us go through a period of hysterical bonding after we discover affairs/feel the loss of our spouse. One thing I read early on from codependents anonymous was: codependents accept sexual attention when they want love. Again, I don't know your story, but often a sexual exploration around these types of events is related to codependency. If you think that could be an issue, I'd check out the list on that site. I found it extremely enlightening and it explained a lot of the feelings I have felt throughout my life.

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Originally Posted by OwnIt
Hi wooba, I don't know your story, but it brought to mind something I read previously about codependents. My guess is that most of us here are and that while people don't talk about this issue, my guess is that most of us go through a period of hysterical bonding after we discover affairs/feel the loss of our spouse. One thing I read early on from codependents anonymous was: codependents accept sexual attention when they want love. Again, I don't know your story, but often a sexual exploration around these types of events is related to codependency. If you think that could be an issue, I'd check out the list on that site. I found it extremely enlightening and it explained a lot of the feelings I have felt throughout my life.

You are definitely right! It wasn’t until coming to this forum that I’ve learned about codependency and that I was living it. Sex is a tough area for me- we had a SSM and something we fought about all the time. after BD I dropped all my expectations when we have physical intimacy, but that probably still wasn’t the healthiest thing to do. But I also know that it’s something I’d like to work on for myself- being able to turn my mother/wife mode off and just be a woman with desires.


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Hi Cardinal and Wooba,

Just to join in the conversation on the intimacy part-- we had a SSM, and me wanting to turn the mother/caretaker mode off and the desire mode on has been a big part of my own GAL and who I want to be post-sitch, no matter what happens. I have spent a lot of time reading and thinking about this (recommend Emily Nagoski and Esther Perel if you're interested) and have focused a lot on how I can bring desire (and feeling desirable) back into my life regardless of H, and have been doing many of those things (working out and losing weight being a big one).

Anyhoo, I know you guys have probably been following my sitch but I do have to say that re-starting the physical intimacy with H has been overall a big positive for ME (though jury's still out on how it affects, if it does, our MR). He had started initiating these middle-of-the-night slam bam thank you maams, which I'd been responsive to, but then felt kind of unfulfilled and he felt all sad and guilty, so I decided no more of those, thank you very much. It was actually when we had THAT conversation-- me telling him I don't want that anymore, no fun for me-- that we had sex for the first time outside of that context.

I had a similar situation as the one you, Cardinal, describe above a couple of weeks ago, when H was still sleeping in the office. We came home from drinks, I was tipsy, he went into his room and I went into mine. Then I was thinking exactly like you were and thought, what the hey. What's the worst thing that can happen? I went in there and it was fun and I'm glad it did it-- but it was for ME, not for him or out of some hope that it would re-spark our R. I want to know that I have that in me, that I'm not the frigid b**ch he'd made me out to be. I also told him explicitly that us being physically intimate didn't mean I was wanting to choose to R with him (this is before I had to tell him that in discernment counseling), but it was for my educational purposes only.

So... I guess my advice would be to really break it down for yourself. If you're really wanting to explore that side of yourself, your H is a good person to do that with as long as you don't have any expectations and neither does he. I figured H is the only one around right now, I'm not embarrassed with him, as long as I can engage without being sad it isn't romantic ML or having expectations that it will lead to something, it does bring value to me.

On the other hand, you might have read Wayfarer's post on someone else's thread (I think it made it to RTC's quotes) about the muffin shop being closed. I totally get and respect that too. It is just for me that this part of me has been repressed or whatever for so long that it is important for *me* to be able to see myself as a sexual being. And I don't know that I need to do it any more now... but the times we did was worth it.


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Hi, may and wooba—thanks so much for sharing your thoughts here! I do see this as a decision that will be different for each person, and reading your perspectives is helpful, if anything in reminding me I'm not alone. Like both of you, I think, I want to be able to turn desire mode on in my life, and to really get in touch with that side of myself that used to be much stronger and braver. It is a 180 I want to make with or without H.

Since H has moved from totally withdrawn mode like your H now, wooba, to more friendly, I think about initiating a lot more. But I also know this shift in him has made me realize how far I still have to go in releasing any expectations surrounding him and R.

may, I have been following your sitch, and I'm sorry I don't post more! I've been feeling ill-equipped to give any advice to anyone lately. I seem to remember your H also having resentment about your expressing desire for him now, after years of the SSM. Right around/after BD, when I expressed to my H that I did/do desire him, he seemed really hurt and angry that I hadn't expressed this to him enough before. I think he'd been holding on to a lot of resentment I wasn't aware of, so I was met with the too little, too late attitude. Words vs. actions though--I never tried to act differently. Hmm.

I suspect I'm not detached enough to try anything without expectations at this point; I could imagine his not being responsive to it affecting me more than it should. But also, that's the kind of thing that hurt our R in the past—I wasn't brave enough to initiate! He didn't initiate, but he had expectations and didn't communicate them to me. Grr. Circles, again...


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Originally Posted by cardinal

may, I have been following your sitch, and I'm sorry I don't post more! I've been feeling ill-equipped to give any advice to anyone lately. I seem to remember your H also having resentment about your expressing desire for him now, after years of the SSM. Right around/after BD, when I expressed to my H that I did/do desire him, he seemed really hurt and angry that I hadn't expressed this to him enough before. I think he'd been holding on to a lot of resentment I wasn't aware of, so I was met with the too little, too late attitude. Words vs. actions though--I never tried to act differently. Hmm.

I suspect I'm not detached enough to try anything without expectations at this point; I could imagine his not being responsive to it affecting me more than it should. But also, that's the kind of thing that hurt our R in the past—I wasn't brave enough to initiate! He didn't initiate, but he had expectations and didn't communicate them to me. Grr. Circles, again...

My H basically reacted the same way, he told me that being physically intimate does not translate into being connected to me again, and he was still hurt that I pushed him away all these years. But I know that I am not 100% to be blamed on this, because he definitely did things that made him less desirable for me, and did not communicate to me on certain things when our M was deteriorating. Ultimately he would have to look at himself and admit/accept his missteps in the M for him to stop blaming me entirely for SSM. But that’s a whole other story....

With that said, I almost want to encourage you to experiment for yourself. Other vets may vehemently disagree with me though....ha!!! Test yourself. Be brave and initiate. Be prepared to be hurt because you said you’re not detached enough. It might put you back into square one in terms of DBing. But then you might learn more about yourself afterwards. Whatever H will think, it doesn’t matter. Its not about him, it’s about you.


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Originally Posted by wooba
Ultimately he would have to look at himself and admit/accept his missteps in the M for him to stop blaming me entirely for SSM. But that’s a whole other story....

Yes, this is key, right? I'm thinking of what you said yesterday on may's thread too about their rewriting history and being unable to look in the mirror.
Originally Posted by wooba
With that said, I almost want to encourage you to experiment for yourself. Other vets may vehemently disagree with me though....ha!!!

No one has disagreed with you yet! Ha. I'm going to see if my feelings shift in the next week or so, talk it over with my IC. I do feel like if I am only focusing on my growth, it would be something to be open to. I feel more strongly that I would want to do it for ME. I am feeling the confident woman who seduced my H in the first place coming back. I want to embrace that woman again. But... it also seems anti-DB? I don't know!


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