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A Message from Michele
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Re: Divorce and Acceptance Part 4 [Re: Pax_luv] #2875130
12/07/19 06:25 PM
12/07/19 06:25 PM
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I agree with the idea behind Job's idea but I wonder if you could do something that would not give H the power. Job's idea worked amazingly but it was a real gamble!

For example -- Find the most amazing dog of the same age as yours who is at death's door on a rescue site and send listing as a Bcc so he thinks you are sending it to a lot of people with a message -- "A friend just sent me this, I wonder if anyone is interested in saving this wonderful dog?"

I don't mean that you should do that particular idea but I just wonder if can be a little more strategic and have love and confidence fuel your thinking on this instead of fear. We all know that MLCers do not negotiate and they often want to hurt us. If you really don't think your H loves your dog the way you do, he is probably doing this to keep the power and/or to hurt you. Mine is doing that to me by trying to keep me from buying him out at appraised value -- he would get the same money either way and get it sooner but he wants to rip my life apart.

If not, I think your clarity is good -- that you understand you are opening yourself up to this pain and the dog is worth it to you. You know that your dog's life will not be as long as yours and you are okay with sharing your dog with this man though it hurts you because of the love you feel for the dog. Just as long as you are clear. And I would put something in the settlement, if you don't end up getting H another dog somehow, that the dog comes to you when s/he is sick, and that the dog can't be shared during periods of illness, esp for when your dog gets old and infirm.

And on the fifth hand, there is a whole chapter in that book I keep talking about about how we can be released from the fears of what the narcissist is going to do next. Your post looks like came out of that chapter -- a lot of calculating what kind of abuse you will have to face. Maybe better to have peace knowing that you can try to get the dog to be yours alone but that you can face anything H throws at you, you don't have to worry about it in advance, you have confidence you'll be able to do what needs to be done. (Fearful Pot telling Fearful Kettle!)

Last edited by Gerda; 12/07/19 06:26 PM.

I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord with courage.
Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Re: Divorce and Acceptance Part 4 [Re: Pax_luv] #2875135
12/07/19 06:56 PM
12/07/19 06:56 PM
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Pax and Gerda,

Yes, what I did was a very, very "ify" gamble that paid off, but I was done being afraid of him and what he would or would not do. I was done w/his playing controlling games. MLCers do not like to lose, but my xh knew that I was not playing and he knew that his soul mate's name would come out along w/the photos that my PI had taken. I took back control of my situation in the nick of time. This strategy may or may not work in Pax's case, but it provides an example of what she may use, but in her own way/situation. Do not be afraid of him or his tactics. He's the one that is out there acting like a putz and being a selfish one at that. You have done nothing wrong but show compassion and attempting to work w/him on everything.

Pax, your h isn't going to give that dog up w/o a fight. In fact, if you were to put something out there about another dog, he would definitely suggest that you get it for yourself and not the other way around. As for finding him another dog just so that you can have your fur baby back...that's not going to work. Again, he would say you need to keep the replacement for yourself. He is a selfish, spoiled little brat in the sandbox.

MLCers are selfish people, i.e., just like that little tot in the sandbox that wants all the toys that another little one is playing with. When that selfish tot sees that the other little one has moved on to something else, that is when the selfish one will give up all of those toys he/she has taken. What I'm suggesting is that when you cease showing that you want your fur baby, i.e., showing that you just don't care any longer, maybe that is when he will decide the game is up and lose interest in keeping the dog for himself.

You know your h better than anyone. You know what he is capable of, especially at the present time. This situation is one that you need to sit and think about. Try to remember, you have nothing to fear but fear itself and of course, nothing ventured, nothing gained.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Re: Divorce and Acceptance Part 4 [Re: Pax_luv] #2875172
12/08/19 12:25 AM
12/08/19 12:25 AM
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So Pax, I think I know your state and you confirmed it with the law thing, so some food for thought.

No matter how this works out, you are giving it serious thought and consideration. You are digging in to decide how important this is to you. I hope that you did not cry because of what I wrote, but if you did, I think it was a good cry to help you reach your feelings about this.

But, I will say, that people are either capable of loving animals or they aren't. It is more about you than the animal. If you love this dog this much, you would love another as much or more, especially if not tied to an exceedingly unpleasant person and a likelihood of ongoing battles, keeping him in your life, and likely huge financial issues (I can see him taking you to court over and over about this dog). That said, this is your decision and you have to do what you believe in.

The law says that interim orders affecting the dog are not to have any impact on the final determination. I'm not sure why you have been doing all the work to take and pick up the dog. Seems he should be sharing in this. So I would at least bargain for that. Just as parents of children can't up and move, he should not be able to up and move with your dog. It doesn't mean he won't, he probably will, because he absolutely uses this dog to hurt you over and over again. This is why I can see you ending up in court over the care, housing, and maintenance of this dog moving forward.

I understand what Job is saying and the way to beat a narcissist is to make them feel like they won. I don't think that using the abortion as leverage will achieve that trick though. I think for a normal human who experiences shame, it might. But that is not your guy. I think it will enrage him and make him out for more blood than he already is. If there is something else that you can give him that he does value (whether a thing or money) that you do not value as much, I would do it. Even if it was a lot of money. I think he will sue you over and over about this dog. Narcissists love court. Its why they don't settle. They also like filing actions after seeming finality. So whatever it costs you to have a final decision now that you can live with. I would try to get there.

At any rate, your final orders concerning this dog should address as much as possible, leaving as little as possible open to interpretation. You know he will claim that this is his emotional support dog and he needs it more. Just be armed with materials that show how this emotional support thing has been over done and be ready to point out that even if he needs a dog full-time, he doesn't need your dog full-time, and that is a bigger reason to give you the dog, since he can't share it.

Make sure you cover not only who pays for food/vets--regular and special (teeth), diseases, chemo, etc. Who makes end-of-life decisions about the dog. What the visitation schedule is, how much variance from the allotted time (at least 30 minutes I would say), who picks up/drops off. Who makes the call on vet appointments, immunizations, etc. (this guy doesn't cooperate with you, you don't want to have to work it out). Who picks the food the dog eats. Does it have to be the same food both places. What kinds of collars, leashes. Can the dog be around other animals, etc. Also what about relocation, voluntary or involuntary. You may want to talk about having a special master appointed (like a mediator) who makes the call when you guys can't agree. Something that limits the judicial review. Like you can each give a one page statement to the mediator on your position and the mediator makes the call kind of thing. Also, try to get a loser pays attorney fees provision added so that he has less incentive to sue you for stupid things.

I can't stress enough that because this dog is going to be the way he gets to you, you need to plan ahead. Also remember, whatever decision you make, it is your decision and you had the power. You are not his victim and whether you keep the dog or not, he has not beaten you if you are doing what is best for you.

Re: Divorce and Acceptance Part 4 [Re: OwnIt] #2875173
12/08/19 12:28 AM
12/08/19 12:28 AM
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OwnIt,

I really liked your posting. You've given Pax quite a bit to think about. The list of things that need to be addressed concerning the dog, etc. are great.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Re: Divorce and Acceptance Part 4 [Re: Pax_luv] #2875393
12/09/19 09:04 PM
12/09/19 09:04 PM
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Pax_luv Online OP
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Thank you so much for the feedback.

Own, I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to jot down all that you have. Just.... thank you. It was very helpful food for thought.

I did go to my lawyer about all the details in regards to the dog and he understands my stance. He doesnít want me to get ahead of myself, but he does get it. He did mention that the trial likely wouldnít be set until late summer or early fall and that we could have until then to work something out. But obviously we have to start with square one first.

I am very anxious about how this is going to go. Iím ok, but my heart is racing.... ughhhh I have a few more days to get through. I should try to calm myself down.

I had two people tell me in the last 4 days that Iím gaining weight. Freaking awesome. I know Iím not as svelte as I was when I was training for my body building comp, but it doesnít feel good to be called out for my appearance. I know Iím not bad, but Iím not as I was. Iím definitely not working out. I have had zero energy and thatís affecting me. Plus I know I have a lot of cortisol in my system to blame. Itís been a stressful 6 months. Bleh.

Oh and my friend just lost her dog to a tragic accident. She is devastated. I so feel for her right now. Whenever we go out, we always bring our pups with us. Itís just so sad. Donít know why I needed to share that here... obviously dogs are on my mind and I know how much they can mean to people.


Me- 30's H- 40's
T-10 M-5
I moved out b/c he wanted space- June 15
D filed by H: September 16
Re: Divorce and Acceptance Part 4 [Re: Pax_luv] #2875409
12/09/19 10:31 PM
12/09/19 10:31 PM
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Pax, did you ever read about the Stockdale Paradox? He was a POW and survived years of torture and captivity. In explaining how he survived, the following emerges: you have to have faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties, and at the same time, must confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be. The optimists in the camp, the ones who were sure they would be out in a month or two or whatever, didn't make it out. Don't give yourself a timeline you don't control and don't minimize the obstacles that you have in front of you.

The reality is, that you will get through this last part of the process. You are not in control of how long it will take, but it will end. You will have a beautiful life when it is over. You are making the choice for how you want to handle your dog. You are going to do that with eyes wide open of what you need to resolve and how you will handle enforcement down the road. None of this needs to be decided today.

In addition to recognizing the truths of the Stockdale Paradox, consider exercise as a means to combat the anxiety. It will also help with the weight. I'm surprised that people said something to you about it, but it was likely out of kindness and concern. Remember too that when it comes to the scale, that diet is significantly more important than exercise. I was morbidly obese and no one, except OD, ever said anything about my weight. I think had people expressed concern earlier, I might have done something earlier. Instead it was OD criticizing and it turned into a control thing. All problems are easiest if we handle them when they are small. Do your own evaluation and consult your doctor. Are you overweight? Is it a health concern? Does it bother you? If you answer yes to those, then do something about it, but don't stress more over whether to do something about it.

I'm sorry about your friend's dog and I'm sure it pulls you back to your situation, but none of us have any certainties in this life. We all have obstacles and challenges that we have to get around, over and through.

You are resilient Pax, you just need to remember that. You have stood up to him and won some important battles in this war and those will come to fruition when you get to the trial. Instead of slogging through this last part, start looking at it as preparing for the day it is over. Put your energy into the future, and not the past.

Re: Divorce and Acceptance Part 4 [Re: Pax_luv] #2875428
12/10/19 12:14 AM
12/10/19 12:14 AM
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Thanks again, Own! Ahh yes, stockdale paradox. I just had this conversation with my mother last night. Basically, i think Iím burnt out and exhausted. From all of it. Iíve been hyper vigilant for far too long. It feels like like Iím opening Pandoraís box again and I have ptsd from last time. Iím just not looking forward to this, but will remain strong.

Oh and the weight thing... Iím on the lean/normal/optimal side of the BMI scale... so Iím healthy.... but Iím so psychologically messed up right now- I care what people think about me...

Iím like... canít I just BE for a bit..... stop judging me everybody. I donít feel good about myself, but everyone expects me to show up a certain way. Aka I care about others approval too much and Iím trying to grow beyond that.


Me- 30's H- 40's
T-10 M-5
I moved out b/c he wanted space- June 15
D filed by H: September 16
Re: Divorce and Acceptance Part 4 [Re: Pax_luv] #2875456
12/10/19 03:45 AM
12/10/19 03:45 AM
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I realize my last post was whiney. I donít like feeling like Iím being judged. Meh. Iíll get better.


Me- 30's H- 40's
T-10 M-5
I moved out b/c he wanted space- June 15
D filed by H: September 16
Re: Divorce and Acceptance Part 4 [Re: Pax_luv] #2875457
12/10/19 04:23 AM
12/10/19 04:23 AM
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OwnIt Offline
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I didn't think it was whiny.

Hypervigilence is difficult for anyone who has lived through an extensive period of trauma. If you are HWP, then it makes no sense that people should comment on your weight or appearance. If those are friendships you value, I would discuss how that made you feel. If they are not, I'd not give much weight to the comments, and maybe revisit whether you need that person in your life.

But remember, you are the only one who can take the comment and turn it into a judgment. Don't give people that power over you. Take any needed criticism that comes your way, and reject that which is clearly inapplicable or mean-spirited.

Yes, blows hurt when they land. That's why it's always good to cogitate and vent, so you can respond rather than react. Time helps that.

Re: Divorce and Acceptance Part 4 [Re: Pax_luv] #2875832
12/12/19 03:38 PM
12/12/19 03:38 PM
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Letís just say the days leading up to todayís hearing have been wrought with the same oleí drama and shenanigans from ex and his camp.

Honestly, I donít even know how his lawyer gets away with this stuff! So unprofessional. As my lawyer suspects, exís lawyer seems to be a nice guy, but ex seems to be the puppet master and my lawyer canít figure out why.

I donít know why I expected anything different. Sigh.

Needless to say, I am pretty anxious this morning. The hearing is not until this afternoon so I have a couple more hours to endure before I physiologically get back to center. This [censored].

Canít get into it right now but Ex is up to his same BS. Deep breaths. I know Iíll get through this.


Me- 30's H- 40's
T-10 M-5
I moved out b/c he wanted space- June 15
D filed by H: September 16
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