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#2875425 12/10/19 12:07 AM
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I am new. My marriage has suffered through H's infidelity once before and DB phone consultations helped me get through. Even then H would not get counseling.

We have two children - 13 and 9. I admit that for a big part of the marriage I have been putting the kids first. I have felt like a single mom because H does the bare minimum and works until late (generally when he comes home the kids are already in bed).

Well, this fall, H started staying out late ( 3am - 4 am) and not calling or texting. Finally, one night, I blew up and asked if he wanted to be married. The next day he texted me that he did not want to work on our marriage. He thinks we should both move on. He says he will be there for our children.

Since then, he has moved to the basement and now barely speaks to me, stays out all night at tleast twice a week not telling me where he is going. He will not touch me physically and avoid being in the same room with me if possible. He has sent me information on amicable divorces to read.

I still love him and want our marriage to work for our children, but also because I care for him.

Last edited by job; 01/18/20 10:36 PM. Reason: edited the posting just a bit for the poster

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Welcome to the Forum! I am pasting in Cadet's Welcome posting for you.

Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


Me-65, D33,S32


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Welcome and sorry you are here.

First, I am not a fan of the term "exit affair". The majority of the time an affair is a symptom of deeper problems in a marriage. Most of the other cases are a character flaw in the cheating spouse. In the first case, the OP is simply the excuse or catalyst the WAS needed to step out of the MR that they were already unhappy with.

Your husband is wayward. He may or may not be in an A. He may or may not be having a MLC.

The good news is that none of those changes the approach you should take. GAL. 180s. and detach. Please read all of cadet's links. There is gold in the reading there. Have you read DR? Get it and read it.

Remember, you cannot control him. It only takes one spouse to end a marriage. So the only thing you have control over is you.


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I am trying to GAL and detach. I think I am doing a pretty good job at detachment, but yesterday and today I have felt so down. Today I just want to lay around and sulk.

Last night he spent the night at home. We sleep separately. He seemed a little more comfortable spending time in the same room with me, possibly because of the detachment. I don't know.

I am getting anxious because of the holidays, not knowing what to expect in sharing time with the children. I have no idea what his plans are although I assume they will not include me for sure.

I admit that during our MR, I had become very distant, resentful and angry. I am hoping the detachment does not appear to be like this. I try to be as attractive as possible, available yet stay out of the way, and more "happy" acting.

I read DB a few years ago, but need to read it again.

Thanks so much job for all the links!


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For all of you who have successfully detached and waited out your cheating MLC spouse to come around, how do you fight off feelings that you deserve better, are being a doormat, etc.? I have so many emotions. Each day is different.


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I too was distant, resentful and angry. I had isolated myself. However, even if that your dynamic pre-BD, the last thing your WAS wants is for you to try to love, be close, and smother them right now. Think about it. For a while pre-BD he hoped that dynamic would change. He finally gave up and NOW you want to fix it? Most WAS rebel against that.

So GAL, 180ing, detaching and giving him time and space is the right approach.

As far as your feelings. You are 100% right to feel you deserve better! And you definitely do not want to be a doormats. Doormats get walked OVER as the WAS walks away. People who stand up for themselves get walked around. Or in some cases the WAS will gain some respect for the LBS and not walk away at all. Being a doormat will get you no where fast.


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Hi Hesable. Welcome aboard. Why do you think your H is having a MLC? Can you give us a bit more information about the MR in past times?

What do you mean by primary breadwinner? A higher salary, more benefit, job security? Does he work on a late shift? Has he had problems keeping a job? Have you always been the one who kept everything running? If he is asked, what is a typical response from him? Sorry for so many questions, but maybe it will help you see what information to give that paints a picture of the marital history.

What are the ages of you and H?

One more...........tell us about the previous affair.

Hope you will post often, Hesable.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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We are both in our mid-40s. In the previous affair, DH slept with a coworker multiple times. I discovered it while snooping in his email. He did not want to seek counseling but I had DB consultations individually and was able to work through it alone to save our marriage. He did his part by working to try to regain my trust.

I make the most money, cover the benefits and d pay more of the household bills. I had the down payment for our home. A lot of his income goes to his small business and to student loans. There have been times when he was unable to contribute to the bills in a timely manner but he never discussed this with me. I would have to confront him to ask if he would be able to contribute. I would always just remind him to please let me know ahead of time if he had things come up so I could plan accordingly to pay things on my own like mortgage, power, phone, etc. Now I am realizing that we probably should have downgraded our lifestyle a notch (smaller home) to accommodate his loans, etc.. I also have credit card debt so our financial situation is not ideal which has been another strain on our marriage. We have a great household income but it goes mostly to bills.

I think he is having a MLC because he is acting out of character. He never stayed out all night before, for example. After the BD, he has stayed out several nights until the next day after 10 a.m. He works out like crazy and is obsessed with his appearance. He has lost 50+ pounds and still is trying to lose more. He is so skinny now. He talks about dyeing his hair, whitening his teeth, etc. Also he had a traumatic event this year when his mother passed away which probably got him thinking about how short life is. He started talking about how old we are getting all the time.


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Also in terms of the MR in past times (married 14 years), H used to shower me with affection, flowers, cards. He would call me beautiful. It all seems like it was fake now although maybe he meant it at the time. Just four months ago, he was doing these things.

After the BD, I did all the wrong things. I sent him articles about rough patches in marriage, asked him to consider staying for the kids' sake, pleaded, etc. He says he just needs me to free him. He says he cannot be the husband I deserve. I have told him that he can, that we just need help. After that he began staying out all night as opposed to coming in at 3 am or 4 am. I felt like he was either trying to punish me or trying to push me to agree to a divorce in a very passive aggressive way. Of course I think he is with an OW. The first few times he claimed he was staying at a male friend's house after having drinks. Then he stopped even trying to explain and just asked me to free him. Now I have no idea when he will be going out or coming in. He goes as he pleases.

Last edited by HesAble; 12/12/19 03:22 PM.

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One more thing...since the BD, I have discovered that H has entered into some bad business deals that put him in way over his head financially. He is in a "rob Peter to pay Paul" situation that he never discussed with me. I could have helped but I don't want to mention it now.


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One more question: has anyone had the BD drop right before the holiday season? This seems like the absolute worst time. My H's came in November. We all ate as a family for Thanksgiving at our home so that worked out (although he sat as far away from me as possible). Now that I have detached, I am not sure how to deal with asking about Christmas plans. We both have in-laws out of town who like to see the kids. I am not sure if H has told his family.

Last edited by HesAble; 12/12/19 09:31 PM.

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Yes I believe Steve said BD was two days before Christmas for him!


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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I was told by another poster not to sugar coat my advise. So I will give my 2 cents as unfiltered as I can.


Your husband sent you a text message that he didn't want to work on the marriage. So, I suggest that you have all communications via email, and keep it about "business". Parenting is part of business. Paying bills etc. Do not engage in relationship talk.


Originally Posted by HesAble
I am not sure how to deal with asking about Christmas plans. We both have in-laws out of town who like to see the kids. I am not sure if H has told his family.


Test the waters with a text like this:
W:"H, I plan on inviting my parents here for XMAS."
or
W:"H, I plan on taking the kids to my parents house for XMAS. We will be leaving this date and back on this date"

See how he responds.

1) OK.
2) What about me?
3) I want the kids to see my parents.

With #1 follow through with the plan. With #2 or #3, continue dialog.

#2) You can join us if you want. It is your choice.
#3) if you are staying home :"You can invite them to join us if you would like"
If you are visiting your parents "You can take the kids to visit your family next year"



"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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If I could go back I would have eliminated texting. Email only. I picked an email account I rarely use so I could control when I was emotionally ready to deal with him.

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All my text message get forwarded to my gmail account. I don't remember how I set this up, but I have a good "record" of texting as well.

If texting looks like it is going south, direct the conversation to email with this text "I sent you an email"


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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Originally Posted by kas99
If I could go back I would have eliminated texting. Email only. I picked an email account I rarely use so I could control when I was emotionally ready to deal with him.


That seems smart but I would think it would be tough to do. There is nothing worse than when you are at work and you see a text that is just calling to you, then you read it and its devastating.

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Yeah, I personally would not have sent a text message concerning a big, serious life-altering BD like I can't work on this marriage anymore. But H decided to do this. Communication in our marriage has been extremely poor and it has not been all his fault. I have contributed to this too. Probably explains how we got to this point without much warning.

Last edited by HesAble; 12/12/19 11:29 PM.

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So H stayed out all night and came home just now at 7. I am livid. How
did you all deal with feelings of extreme anger? I want to reach out and touch him. This is killing me! I am trying to act detached, etc.

I cannot afford to kick him out and I think it would be illegal anyway since our home is marital property. He lives in the basement although we still share a bathroom and closet. I think he wants me to ask him to leave because that will make him feel less guilty about leaving.

Last edited by HesAble; 12/13/19 01:46 PM.

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Hi H!
What's helped me living with a S whom is most likely in an affair or a serious MLC whom I can't kick out is to call a trusted contact to vent, have family over, see a counselor, come here to post or exercise. Standard cardio exercising or something peaceful like yoga may not take away the anger...what I like is boxing (the air, have no bag), something intense pushing your limits like high numbers or burpees, or high jumps, or something like Tae Bo. I know its hard to see your H just about everyday. Makes it harder to detach and GAL. He seems to be cake eating as the vets call it. How to end the cake eating I'll leave to the vets. You're not alone in such a difficult circumstance!


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The cake eating that H is doing is what is driving me completely insane. He is having the time of his life and, meanwhile, I am falling apart all while trying to pretend all is well (180ing, detaching, GAL) and take care of 2 children while working full-time.

I spoke with one therapist who told me I need to let him know I am angry. She says I am making it easy for him to do what he is doing and he needs to feel some pressure. That he will just continue if I allow it. This of course is contrary to DB advice. I am so conflicted!!!

Last edited by HesAble; 12/13/19 04:00 PM.

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My therapist also said similar things, all counter to DB rules. "Talk to W, tell her how you feel about her and the marriage, and that you want her to end her chats with OM. Tell her you want answers on where your relationship is going". My heart agreed with the counselor and a coworker who went through a similar sitch. The next relationship talk that my wife brought up, I let her know I cared, knew about OM, and knew we could work this out. She got mad, asked when I'm ready to start mediation and left. It definitely pushed her. She now takes the kids out without telling me. The long term consequence I dont know, not too much seems changed however it does feel like I undid progress if I made any. On the other end, it felt great getting it all out there one last time.

You know your spouse and sitch better than any of us. Different methods work for different people. I do believe the vets are right in that LBS in most sitchs should abide by the rules.


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Core: thanks for that. I am going to try to abide by the DB rules. It is one of the most difficult things I have ever done and requires extreme patience. I just want to shake my H for his disrespectful behavior (staying out all night long two and three times a week with whom I suspect is an OW when we have kids at home who need him). He says he will be here for the kids but he has already neglected a number of his regular responsibilities (e.g., taking the kids to school certain days, helping with homework at least a day or two a week).


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Speaking of him neglecting responsibilities, anyone who dealt with this, how did you bring it to the Wayward spouse's attention or did you say nothing and cope? I feel like letting him get away with neglecting his fatherly responsibilities is being a doormat. He has time to go out all night but does not have time for the kids. This is part of what annoys me most. He is making me a single mom before he even leaves .

Part of the tension in our marriage has been that he did not share the parenting responsibilities enough. He steps in occasionally when he feels like it. This year, remarkably, he had become the best father he has ever been but after the Bd he is going back to his old ways.

Right after the BD and before following DB rules, when I brought up the kids and them perhaps noticing his time away at night or noticing our issues, he abruptly said leave them out of our problems. My therapist says no. They are a part of us and I am making it easy for him to continue his behavior if I do not remind him about them.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Yes I believe Steve said BD was two days before Christmas for him!


Yep, worst Christmas of my life.


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Originally Posted by HesAble
I spoke with one therapist who told me I need to let him know I am angry. She says I am making it easy for him to do what he is doing and he needs to feel some pressure. That he will just continue if I allow it. This of course is contrary to DB advice. I am so conflicted!!!
I do not believe this is contrary to MWD advise. It has been a long time since I read the books, I should go re-read them.

One of MWD topics was "Ask for what you want".

I do not think pressure is what the other spouse needs to feel. I think they need to feel fear of loss and actual loss. Most posters do not set good boundaries and do not enforce them. Most posters let fear control them.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Those of you who have been successful in instilling fear of loss, please give me pointers. H is so irrational now that I am not sure he will even react to anything. I think he wants to go. Even bringing up the effect this will have on the children has not helped. His parents divorced when he was a young adult.


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I am going to suggest that you and your kids start doing things outside of the home, especially now that the holiday season is upon us. I would plan activities and then ask if he would like to tag along. If he says no, then go on and do those fun things and leave him home to mull over his mess. If he says yes, then go and have a good time.

You have to learn how to phrase your requests. You need to give him the option of doing something or not. The more you point the finger at him, the more he's going to the exact opposite. He will then look at you as his "mother figure" and not his wife/equal partner.

Trust me, the more you and the kids do things on your own and leave him alone, the more curious he will become and then he just may opt to start doing things again, especially w/the children. Try to remember, the more you push, the harder he is going to pull back from you and your family.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Originally Posted by HesAble
Those of you who have been successful in instilling fear of loss, please give me pointers. H is so irrational now that I am not sure he will even react to anything. I think he wants to go. Even bringing up the effect this will have on the children has not helped. His parents divorced when he was a young adult.



Read this again:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
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I don’t think you’re being a doormat. And you are a single mom. It seems that patience is an issue at this time, but I think that’s what is needed. You have a really sh!tty roommate right now, I think that’s how you should think of him and treat him. For now, who cares if he’s out all night. Be a great mom, invest in some babysitters and go do stuff you want to do.

I know it’s hard. But you’ve obviously got this. I’m finding that detaching is getting easier. I’m not sure why. I did read the All Or Nothing marriage which might have helped. I also reread the section on the stages of marriage in the DR and found that helpful.

Bottom line, he’s a crummy roommate. Expect nothing from him. Give it 30 days and then think through your next action. That’s my thought. I really liked R2C’s post above. Solid thoughts.

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Originally Posted by HesAble
Those of you who have been successful in instilling fear of loss, please give me pointers. H is so irrational now that I am not sure he will even react to anything. I think he wants to go. Even bringing up the effect this will have on the children has not helped. His parents divorced when he was a young adult.


The only way this is successful it to NOT do something to instill fear in him. IE, you really start to move on. If you do really move on he will start to feel that and it COULD.....key word.....COULD instill him with a fear of loss. Or he may be so far gone he doesn't care if he loses you.

Either way, whether it scares him or whether it doesn't, moving on is the right move. After all, when you really think about, what other choice do you really have??


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Originally Posted by job
I would plan activities and then ask if he would like to tag along. If he says no, then go on and do those fun things and leave him home to mull over his mess. If he says yes, then go and have a good time.

You have to learn how to phrase your requests. You need to give him the option of doing something or not.


^^^^This is critically important.
Another good option is not asking if he want to tag along.

Just a small selection of ways to make the statement:

W:"H, Kids and I are going ice skating tonight. We are leaving at 6 and will be back at 9"
or
W:"H, Kids and I are going ice skating tonight. You are free to join us if you would like"
or
W:"H, Kids and I are going ice skating tonight."
or
W:"H, Kids and I are going ice skating tonight. I would like you join us, but I understand if you don't"
or
W:"H, Kids and I are going ice skating tonight. Would you like to join us?"

If I was in your shoes, I would test the waters using the top method. See how he responds. I would do it for 5 or six events. After that, if you believe he wants to join you, try the second. If he turns down invites, Go back to informing vs inviting.

Remember, no pressure.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by Steve85
The only way this is successful it to NOT do something to instill fear in him. IE, you really start to move on. If you do really move on he will start to feel that and it COULD.....key word.....COULD instill him with a fear of loss. Or he may be so far gone he doesn't care if he loses you.?
Steve is wise and clarified my belief well.

Most posters do things trying to manipulate their spouse. This does not work.

When you decide that you have had enough of the BS and do things that protect you and your kids, you are on the right path.

Everything is so counter-intuitive. Even at the point in the process when the spouse comes back begging for you to take them back.


This is a big onion that needs to be peeled by you. Get good at peeling off the layers. Read as much as you can here. Cadets links, my quotes, sandi2 posts.

You two know each other better than anyone else on this planet. You now see the real him. He sees the real you. Flaws and all.

This is all about your personal growth and has nothing to do with your spouse. He is on his own path. You fix you. He fixes him. He can't change you. You can't change him.

Best worst thing I ever went through. I am grateful looking back. I am a better person after going through the process.

HUGS


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He isn't responsible, b/c you would tell him to let you know if he couldn't pay a bill, so you could cover it. I give you credit for being the responsible person in the M, but you kept thinking he would do the right thing and step up to the plate......but does he have the moral integrity to be responsible. Apparently there was no motivation or consequences to change his ways. He is treating you terrible, and he continues to have no consequences! Do you see what I mean? Your H eats cake b/c he can! Why should he change? B/c of his kids, or his marriage? No, b/c that means he would have to stop playing around and act like a responsible father & husband. Stop assuming he will just do the right thing. He sounds as if he's been spoiled rotten. I don't know if he is in a MLC (without more information), but there is no excuse for his behavior. There's a reason, but not an excuse.

Okay, so you are a very hard worker, and probably driven. You probably keep things functioning properly at home. You make sure the kids get their homework, have dinner, bathe, etc. You see what needs to be done.....and you do it. Your H, on the other hand, is not as driven. I'm wondering if his mother made him do chores, and I'm not saying this to be sarcastic. Can you tell us a little about his childhood? How was he in the early years of the M?

How was your sex life? I would think after working all day on your job, and then going home to deal with the children's needs and getting the chores done....you would be exhausted by bedtime. Not to mention you were probably seething, since your H didn't do that much to help around the house. I think most any woman would eventually have a little resentment. If you couldn't find a healthy way to live with a man who seems to be opposite of yourself, then I'd guess that you were pushing more & more resentment down into your heart. While at the same time, maybe he felt neglected. IDK, and that's why you can respond to my statements, so that we will understand the situation better.

Oh, sorry......I just went back to read your first post again, and you were saying pretty much what I just wrote in the paragraph above. As for as I can tell, all the work at home was done when he would go home around 10:00 or so. Was he intentionally going home late every night, or was he getting off his job at that time? When did he ever spend time with his children? He told you he would always be there for the kids, but is he there now? Am I being unfair?

Yes, of course he is trying to force your hand to let him go. (I'm sure the OW is putting pressure on him to divorce.) However, I don't know that it would be considered an exit affair. I mean, it's not his first affair, so did you think the other time was an exit affair? Would it make a difference in your feelings or decisions, to know it was an exit affair?

I was a wayward wife, and had an EA. I doubt anyone gets more riled about wayward spouses when a story of someone cheating or mistreating their spouse. If I could get you to understand how you are enabling the beast, maybe you would stop it........then again, maybe you wouldn't. I bet you are a good woman, and you are obviously a devoted mother. There is no freaking way I could put up with what you've dealt with......but you probably wouldn't want my life, either. Life often dishes things we don't deserve, and it doesn't necessarily depend on whether or not a person is caring, kind, patient, or good. I just said that b/c I don't want you to feel like I am judging what kind of woman/wife/mother/person you are. That's why I told you I had an EA years ago. I'm not in the position to judge anyone.

Quote
I still love him and want our marriage to work for our children, but also because I care for him.


Why do you still love him? It sounds admirable to say you want to work on a M for the sake of your children, but one day those kids will be gone with their own lives, and it will be two strangers left at home. Then what? What's your plan? Don't get me wrong, Hesable. I'm not trying to persuade you to get a divorce. I'm trying to get you to tell us why you love this man. Are you prepared to live the rest of your life, lonely? You have continued to wait on him to change, it seems, and he just goes further the opposite direction. You continue to function like a single parent, and you might need to think about changing up a few things. Maybe I am being too harsh with my comments. Maybe you aren't ready to give a response. But, if it causes you to be honest with yourself and think about what you are prepared/willing to do to have the love and happiness you desire, then maybe this long post is worth it.

My final question (this time) is about boundaries. What are your personal boundaries, when it comes to how others treat you? What about boundaries for the marriage? If you discover your H is in another affair, what will influence you the most in deciding what you will do? I don't expect you to actually write out an answer to all my questions. I do hope you will think on them.

Take good care of yourself.


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Wow sandi, I felt like you were writing to me as well. Thank you for your insights.

Hesable, I don’t have much advice as I’m in the same situation as you. Just know you are not alone.


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Originally Posted by sandi2
...I'm wondering if his mother made him do chores, and I'm not saying this to be sarcastic. Can you tell us a little about his childhood? How was he in the early years of the M? ...

How was your sex life?...Was he intentionally going home late every night, or was he getting off his job at that time? When did he ever spend time with his children? He told you he would always be there for the kids, but is he there now? Am I being unfair?...

Why do you still love him? It sounds admirable to say you want to work on a M for the sake of your children, but one day those kids will be gone with their own lives, and it will be two strangers left at home. Then what? What's your plan?...

What are your personal boundaries, when it comes to how others treat you? What about boundaries for the marriage? If you discover your H is in another affair, what will influence you the most in deciding what you will do?...



Great questions, sandi2. Some I have no idea how to answer yet, but they give me a lot to think about.

First of all, his childhood..his mother passed away this year. She pretty much let him get away with a lot of things and did not make him to do a lot of chores. He is the youngest in his family (but so am I so no excuses there). His father was a poor role model - would come into the house while his mother worked her butt off with the 3 kids and would sit on the sofa watching tv and reading the paper. His father also has been divorced several times and is very moody; to this day, if he does not get his way, he will get in a rage, pack his things and leave the house without saying goodbye to anyone.

Sex life...as I stated earlier, I was just so exhausted from working full time and operating like a single mom (and having no real family support in the area where we live) that we ended up having a lot of quickies. The sex quality was pretty bad a lot of times and was not as frequent as he would have liked. I realize that was a real problem and I wanted to work on it, but I was so depressed, resentful and EXHAUSTED!!!

I love the old him, not the new him. I am also a very spiritual person and believe that our marriage was a covenant between me, him and God - not just between me and him. I took our vows very seriously and do not want to take this whole concept of divorce lightly by any means. Also, I would like to keep our family in tact if possible.

I set good boundaries outside my marriage and do not tolerate toxic behavior well. I have completely cut off contact with friends and family who were acting toxic. As to the other questions, I need to think more about them (e.g., what is my plan after kids leave? what are boundaries in my marriage?)


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One more answer. When he would come home late, it was partly due to work. He attends a lot of evening/weekend social events/coffees/dinners/happy hours to "network" and promote his business. Some he could miss, but I think he intentionally makes lots of social commitments because he is very sociable and to avoid coming home to deal with the drudgery of family life. Hence, my resentment. I take on the bulk of "kid work" and when I ask him for help with something specific (e.g., watch the kids, pick someone up), he is usually too "busy." Sometimes he will help though and this year was actually the best he has done ever.

Part of what led to the BD was me "putting my foot down" and bringing up all the crap he does that I can see through. I have enabled him all along and I realize that, but I finally wanted to get it all out in the open about how I needed more help with the kids and around the house, how he needed to come home earlier, etc. to make our marriage work. He then decided that he actually does not want to work on the marriage and sent me a web link about divorce in our state.


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Oh, and out of fairness..He does do one other thing around the house other than take out trash (sometimes) and wash the dishes he uses. He does his own laundry. Sorry...


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Hi HesA,

Hope you are doing ok! Hang in there. I see a lot of similarities between our two situations-- my H travels a ton for work and so I single parent a lot (a week a month or so) and work full time. I had a lot of resentment about the burdens of all of that plus was totally consumed by being a mom, and was not very interested in sex with him. The last few years he went out on his own and his business the last couple of years hasn't been as successful as it was at first, and I know this was really hard on him (plus I wasn't exactly supportive generally since I was also a little resentful that I had to do the 8-5 gig and as a consultant that worked for himself he had a lot more control over his time-- felt like he should just get a real job). I also think he's struggling somewhat with MLC-- turned 40 this year, went on a dieting binge, stopped going to church, is majorly fighting with his dad.

We finally went to MC a little over a year ago and basically fought about all the above plus his anger management in front of her. Same here, he did not want to commit to working on our M and instead (unbeknownst to me at the time) started a long distance EA which is still going. Finding out about her was really hard and continues to be awful but it does help make more sense about why he's acting the way he is and not interested in working on the R with me. I guess I wouldn't be surprised if there is an OW in your situation.

The main differences are that post-MC (and potentially application of some DBing) my H actually got WAAAY better at doing his part of the household/kid duties, and while he hasn't moved down to the basement yet I know he is thinking seriously about it. I've been attempting to DB for about six months, and he has gone from flinching at my touch and being very uncommunicative to back to being good friends. The DBing has helped tremendously in our day-to-day communication and we rarely fight. However, no magic elixirs from me here since (a) he still is talking to his AP and doesn't know that he wants to be married to me and (b) while I've been good at parts of DBing, like 180s and GAL, I am terrible at detaching and still hold a lot of anxiety and fear over what happens if he walks out the door (or down to the basement). He has this fantasy D in his head where we would still vacation together, eat dinner together, he would just go next door to his house with the AP.

Question-- so your H got way better at helping out and then post-BD has completely stopped? Is he around for the kids at all these days?

And Woosa, if you read this-- he's doing his own laundry!!


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Originally Posted by may22


Question-- so your H got way better at helping out and then post-BD has completely stopped? Is he around for the kids at all these days?!


He got way better at helping out (committed to taking one kid to school certain days a week, was more willing to watch kids for me to run errands alone, helped with one of the kids' laundry, became more involved In school projects/meetings, etc.) After the BD, he does the bare minimum and not even consistently. It is like he got amnesia concerning the commitments he made to step up earlier in the year.

Last edited by HesAble; 12/14/19 06:35 AM.

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Originally Posted by may22
And Woosa, if you read this-- he's doing his own laundry!!

Lol!!! I AM following this thread. the laundry... I’ll see if I can get there. Ha.

Hesable- I’m in a similar situation. H didn’t contribute much & suffers from depression & alcoholism. I was full of resentment and consequently lost respect for him, so our marriage became sex-starved. No wise words for you right now but I’d recommend just work on yourself first. Love yourself, work on yourself, and then love yourself more.


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Thanks, May, it is encouraging to know that I might have helped someone.


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Quote
First of all, his childhood..his mother passed away this year. She pretty much let him get away with a lot of things and did not make him to do a lot of chores. He is the youngest in his family (but so am I so no excuses there). His father was a poor role model - would come into the house while his mother worked her butt off with the 3 kids and would sit on the sofa watching tv and reading the paper. His father also has been divorced several times and is very moody; to this day, if he does not get his way, he will get in a rage, pack his things and leave the house without saying goodbye to anyone.


That explains a lot, IMHO. No, it's not an excuse, but aren't your lives copying what he had as a kid? He saw the role of the W & mother working her butt off, while the dad did nothing. Aren't you doing the very same thing his mother did, and isn't he playing the role he saw while growing up?

Maybe you were an exception, but I do believe that most mothers let the baby of three kids get away with more than the older kids......especially, if there is a significant gap in ages. Between his mom not teaching him to do chores, and holding him accountable, and his dad not stepping up.......it's not unreasonable to see how that shaped his mindset. However, I am a firm believer that people can change.

Quote
Sex life...as I stated earlier, I was just so exhausted from working full time and operating like a single mom (and having no real family support in the area where we live) that we ended up having a lot of quickies. The sex quality was pretty bad a lot of times and was not as frequent as he would have liked. I realize that was a real problem and I wanted to work on it, but I was so depressed, resentful and EXHAUSTED!!!


Same here. I recommend that you have a body hormone specialist to run some blood test. It will make a big difference!

Quote
I love the old him, not the new him. I am also a very spiritual person and believe that our marriage was a covenant between me, him and God - not just between me and him. I took our vows very seriously and do not want to take this whole concept of divorce lightly by any means. Also, I would like to keep our family in tact if possible.


Gottcha!

Quote
I set good boundaries outside my marriage and do not tolerate toxic behavior well. I have completely cut off contact with friends and family who were acting toxic. As to the other questions, I need to think more about them (e.g., what is my plan after kids leave? what are boundaries in my marriage?)


Women need good women in their life, b/c of our emotional nature, and b/c we are easily influenced by other women. I'm glad to hear you were able to cut contact with toxic people. I read so much about lonely housewives getting new, wayward type friends. That's not good! We need support, encouragement, and positive guidance in how to live as strong women, wives, & mothers. I was so blessed to have older, godly women in my family/life. They were a priceless source of wisdom.

Hesable, I suggest you think about the boundaries that absolutely non-negotiable for you. For example, a non-negotiable boundary might be......you will not live in an open marriage. You will not have a threesome. You will not subject yourself and/or your children to people bringing drugs into your home; displaying inappropriate behavior; using foul language, etc. in your home. You will not live with anyone who is abusive to your children, or to yourself. These are just a few off the top of my head, as examples. Everyone needs to know what their non-negotiable boundaries are, and not wait until something happens.

((hugs))


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Originally Posted by sandi2
[quote]
Hesable, I suggest you think about the boundaries that absolutely non-negotiable for you. For example, a non-negotiable boundary might be......you will not live in an open marriage. You will not have a threesome. You will not subject yourself and/or your children to people bringing drugs into your home; displaying inappropriate behavior; using foul language, etc. in your home. You will not live with anyone who is abusive to your children, or to yourself. These are just a few off the top of my head, as examples. Everyone needs to know what their non-negotiable boundaries are, and not wait until something happens.

((hugs))


Sandi2, thanks. Now that you put it this way, I definitely do have boundaries. No domestic violence. No open marriage. No threesomes. No one hurting my children. No drugs.

I appreciate your post. Very thought-provoking. I have so much to think about.


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Getting more and more anxious as Christmas draws near. I have not been in the mood to shop for gifts. Still have no idea what our plans are for spending time with the kids.

Started thinking about selling the house and alternate living options. All so overwhelming, particularly since a little over a month ago this was not on my mind at all.

Each day brings different emotions.


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H has been acting like such a disrespectful jerk by going out and staying all night that I am starting to question whether I would want to be with him anyway at this point. Is this a common feeling? I love the old him, but this "new man" is a total jerk. I really do not like him at all. I have found myself even thinking, "I hate him!" He makes me angry coming in at 7 a.m. and such. It is like he is saying that he doesn't care how I feel or what I think now that he is done with me.

I pray this is a phase and that he will go back to the old person I knew or at least become a much better person as a result of all this.


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And for those whose spouses have gone wayward and later expressed remorse...if you have children, did they express remorse for essentially neglecting their children?

H was always gone a lot but now he is gone even more AND, when he does come home, he sees the kids maybe 5 minutes and heads straight to the basement closing the door behind him. For example, the kids have not seen him at all today and they are now in bed. He has been "out" all day and who knows when he will return - possibly in the morning.

Last edited by HesAble; 12/16/19 03:10 AM.

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Breathe! First order of business is get your Christmas shopping done. Christmas is just a little bit over a week away and you need to put your kids first. As for what the plans are for Christmas...make plans and if he wants to join in, so be it. Don't wait on him.

Your expectation level of him is far, far too high. Lower the bar on this because he's acting out and like a teenager, he's only thinking of himself, i.e., selfish, feels entitled, etc. As for staying out all night and coming home in the morning...typical behavior of someone who is rebelling against "mom". Right now, he looks at you as an authority figure and he is doing everything in his power to run from his demons and yes, probably wanting you to react to his behavior and say something to him about it. Don't take his bait.

As for thinking about selling the home and alternate living options...one day at a time. I would first look around for alternate living options and then think about selling the home...but is there a rush to do this right now? If not, step back, focus on your children and you. Even though you don't feel like it, you've got this and your kids need to have a good holiday.

Again, do not wait for him to initiate a conversation about plans for the holidays. Take the lead, plan some fun things for you and the children and you can either invite him to participate and if he says no, that's on him. Or, you can make the plans, inform him and then go about your business.

Keep the focus on you and your children and don't forget to breathe!


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Originally Posted by HesAble
Oh, and out of fairness..He does do one other thing around the house other than take out trash (sometimes) and wash the dishes he uses. He does his own laundry. Sorry...


So, essentially, he's living as a bachelor.


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Originally Posted by job
Breathe! First order of business is get your Christmas shopping done. Christmas is just a little bit over a week away and you need to put your kids first. As for what the plans are for Christmas...make plans and if he wants to join in, so be it. Don't wait on him.

Your expectation level of him is far, far too high. Lower the bar on this because he's acting out and like a teenager, he's only thinking of himself, i.e., selfish, feels entitled, etc. As for staying out all night and coming home in the morning...typical behavior of someone who is rebelling against "mom". Right now, he looks at you as an authority figure and he is doing everything in his power to run from his demons and yes, probably wanting you to react to his behavior and say something to him about it. Don't take his bait.

As for thinking about selling the home and alternate living options...one day at a time. I would first look around for alternate living options and then think about selling the home...but is there a rush to do this right now? If not, step back, focus on your children and you. Even though you don't feel like it, you've got this and your kids need to have a good holiday....


Job: thank you so much for this post. I really do need to BREATHE!!! I have been so stressed, frustrated and angry that my emotions are overwhelming me and stealing any hope for holiday spirit. I must focus on the kids and make sure their holiday is a nice one even if he does not give a crap.

I am going to follow your advice and inform him about our holiday plans. He can join us or not. I also am going to chill out with worrying about alternate living options at this moment. One day at a time is good advice. Also, thanks for the teenager-mom analogy. He is definitely treating me like an annoying "mom" and, I admit, the morning before the BD, I acted like a "mom", telling him he should not stay out drinking and driving then coming home at 3, 4 and 5 a.m., he needed to help more around the house, etc.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
Originally Posted by HesAble
Oh, and out of fairness..He does do one other thing around the house other than take out trash (sometimes) and wash the dishes he uses. He does his own laundry. Sorry...


So, essentially, he's living as a bachelor.


Exactly! I read an article last night entitled "Married Bachelor" and it described him to a tee. He essentially is a bachelor living in his basement pad, doing his own thing and occasionally checking in on his kids when it is convenient.


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Does ever do the kids' laundry? Or wash the kids' dishes?


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Hi HesAble,

I am TRYING to put a moratorium about worrying about any of this until after the holidays. I'm not doing it all that well, but today definitely better than yesterday, better than the day before that, etc. Don't let him take this special time away from you and the kids, and don't let him ruin Christmas. Find ways to consciously relax yourself and take your mind off of him and back to your kids and all the people/places/things in your life that are good and bring you joy.

Originally Posted by HesAble
Originally Posted by may22


Question-- so your H got way better at helping out and then post-BD has completely stopped? Is he around for the kids at all these days?!


He got way better at helping out (committed to taking one kid to school certain days a week, was more willing to watch kids for me to run errands alone, helped with one of the kids' laundry, became more involved In school projects/meetings, etc.) After the BD, he does the bare minimum and not even consistently. It is like he got amnesia concerning the commitments he made to step up earlier in the year.


My guess is that his head is a total and complete mess right now. It totally does seem like rebellious teenager. Part of me wants to say at least you know he is capable of being a better partner even if he isn't right now, but the other part of me wants to say if that was so hard for him that he completely reverted and went 180 in the opposite direction, is he capable of being a decent partner and dad in the long term? He's just got to work this out for himself and unfortunately it isn't anything you can really help him with.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
Does ever do the kids' laundry? Or wash the kids' dishes?


This fall he did the kids' laundry about 3 times then said I could do it myself when I told him to use one detergent rather than the other. I wish I had not complained.

He never does anyone's dishes other than his own and he primarily uses paper plates and plastic utensils, so he is not washing dishes very often.

Last edited by HesAble; 12/16/19 08:50 PM.

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Originally Posted by may22
Hi HesAble,

I am TRYING to put a moratorium about worrying about any of this until after the holidays. I'm not doing it all that well, but today definitely better than yesterday, better than the day before that, etc. Don't let him take this special time away from you and the kids, and don't let him ruin Christmas. Find ways to consciously relax yourself and take your mind off of him and back to your kids and all the people/places/things in your life ...

My guess is that his head is a total and complete mess right now. It totally does seem like rebellious teenager. Part of me wants to say at least you know he is capable of being a better partner even if he isn't right now, but the other part of me wants to say if that was so hard for him that he completely reverted and went 180 in the opposite direction, is he capable of being a decent partner and dad in the long term? He's just got to work this out for himself and unfortunately it isn't anything you can really help him with.


I think I am going to try to start a holiday moratorium myself. I spoke with a counselor today who told me I really need to focus on myself and the children right now.

I admit he is not the ideal partner but I love the "old him" unconditionally with all his imperfections. Crazy love is what they call it, I guess.


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I have finally done some Christmas shopping. Still not in the holiday spirit but taking baby steps...

Today's mood: why do I want to continue a relationship with such a whack job anyway? Amazing the emotions I go through. This really is an emotional roller coaster.


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Originally Posted by HesAble
I have finally done some Christmas shopping. Still not in the holiday spirit but taking baby steps...


Baby steps are great—and Christmas shopping is an accomplishment in itself! It's the music that gets to me right now.

Originally Posted by HesAble

Today's mood: why do I want to continue a relationship with such a whack job anyway? Amazing the emotions I go through. This really is an emotional roller coaster.


Today's mood, the hour's mood, the minute's mood... yeah.


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So H is still trying to decide what he is doing for the holidays. He does not want to travel to visit relatives with the kids and me as we have traditionally done at Christmas. He probably wants to stay in the area with his AP (I have no solid evidence of an AP but when you spend several nights a week outside our home, coming in at 7 and 8 a.m., that suggests a PA to me.) Because we do not live around family, we generally travel at least once a year at Christmas so the kids can visit grandparents, aunts, uncles and others.

I have decided to make holiday plans for the kids and me and let him know that he can join us if he wants. We will proceed with or without him, however. He will NOT ruin our holiday. If I stay in town, he will likely not even come home at night anyway and he barely speaks to me when he is here.

It is just 1 month post-DB and I am already so tired of H's shenanigans. I do not know if I can be strong enough to stand as long as some others have although I am inspired by all of you. Thank goodness for this online community! It helps to know that I am not alone.

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Good for you! Make plans for you and your children and if he wants to come along fine...but if he doesn't...it's on him and he's the one that is hurting himself. Children do not remain small for very long and before you know it, then are grown. Enjoy the time away and just leave him to his own mess.

Keep the focus on you and your family during this holiday season.


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Originally Posted by job
Good for you! Make plans for you and your children and if he wants to come along fine...but if he doesn't...it's on him and he's the one that is hurting himself. Children do not remain small for very long and before you know it, then are grown. Enjoy the time away and just leave him to his own mess.

Keep the focus on you and your family during this holiday season.


I am learning some things from you folks! Thanks for all your great advice.


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I woke up in the middle of the night to find H is still out wherever he goes at night. It is 4 a.m. I used to feel a little sorry for him that he may be a MLCer who is confused and in emotional pain, but now I just wanna give him a swift kick in the pants. Maybe that would wake him up.

I really need to work harder to GAL, 180, etc. because these emotions keep flooding in unexpectedly. I guess that is normal. Yesterday was a good day though. My children noticed that I was in good spirits. The youngest child even said, "Mom, I hope you stay like this." I think I am in the acceptance stage - acceptance that my H is a huge jerk and there is nothing I can do to change it, so I may as well move on and live my life. When and if he ever comes around, maybe I will still be standing. This is one of the most difficult things I have ever done in life, for sure.

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Am I the only spouse who literally feels like her H is just gone, almost like death? He is so cold and distant and it happened almost overnight. I had to grieve that loss of the person I knew because he is "gone" and will likely never come back again. Wow.


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I feel the same way about mine—one day, he was the man I’d known and loved for my entire adult life, my best friend, and the next, he had seemingly no interest in talking to me again, as if it was/is no big deal to essentially cut me out of his life. It’s taken me months to begin to accept this new version of him. Begin to. It’s scary and sad some days how numb I feel toward him because of the wall he’s put up between us. It’s a challenge to not buy completely into his vision of our M and to remind myself there was love; I’m not making the last 16 years up to make myself feel better.

In some ways, grieving a death would feel more natural, concrete, permanent. This is a weird kind of grief, one that I don’t think people understand unless they’ve experienced it. Sending hugs.


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Originally Posted by cardinal
I feel the same way about mine—one day, he was the man I’d known and loved for my entire adult life, my best friend, and the next, he had seemingly no interest in talking to me again, as if it was/is no big deal to essentially cut me out of his life. It’s taken me months to begin to accept this new version of him. Begin to. It’s scary and sad some days how numb I feel toward him because of the wall he’s put up between us. It’s a challenge to not buy completely into his vision of our M and to remind myself there was love; I’m not making the last 16 years up to make myself feel better.

In some ways, grieving a death would feel more natural, concrete, permanent. This is a weird kind of grief, one that I don’t think people understand unless they’ve experienced it. Sending hugs.


Yes, it is miraculous how quick they are able to cut spouses out of their lives. It is like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. And you are so right...it is very difficult not to believe their version of the M and to believe the whole marriage was a lie and perhaps they never felt true love.

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Originally Posted by HesAble
Am I the only spouse who literally feels like her H is just gone, almost like death? He is so cold and distant and it happened almost overnight. I had to grieve that loss of the person I knew because he is "gone" and will likely never come back again. Wow.


No it's very common to feel this way. I know I did. Some people describe it as being like the old movie Invasion of the Body Snatchers. It still looks like your spouse, but it's like aliens came along and planted another person inside their skin.

As for whether he will come back again, he very well might. They sometimes will come out of the fog and go right back to being their old self. My XW wasn't one of them, but even she has gone partway back. Maybe now about 50% the person I was married to and 50% a stranger as opposed to 95/5 after BD. And it's taken all these years for her to come back that far.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
[/quote]

No it's very common to feel this way. I know I did. Some people describe it as being like the old movie Invasion of the Body Snatchers. It still looks like your spouse, but it's like aliens came along and planted another person inside their skin.

As for whether he will come back again, he very well might. They sometimes will come out of the fog and go right back to being their old self. My XW wasn't one of them, but even she has gone partway back. Maybe now about 50% the person I was married to and 50% a stranger as opposed to 95/5 after BD. And it's taken all these years for her to come back that far.


Those of you who have been strong enough to stand for years amaze me! Perhaps I will gain that type of strength over time but, right now, just 1 month post-BD, I just want to run away and never see this "alien" again. Unfortunately, we have 2 children so I will have to deal with him, whether he snaps back into reality or not, for the rest of my life perhaps. OMG!!!!!!!!!!!


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Originally Posted by HesAble
Am I the only spouse who literally feels like her H is just gone, almost like death? He is so cold and distant and it happened almost overnight. I had to grieve that loss of the person I knew because he is "gone" and will likely never come back again. Wow.


Nope. Same story for me.. My W and I were perfectly fine and then within just a few days she was completely cold, distant, and gone emotionally within a few weeks gone physically. I used to say it would be easier if she had just died because it would be concrete and closure would be easier. It's been 4 months since BD for me and 3 months since she moved out and I will tell you that it gets a wholllllleeee lot easier. My W has made it easy on me though because we no longer see each other or speak under any circumstances, she isn't playing with my emotions with any breadcrumbs or anything. We see each other at rare events like my S4's dental surgery appointment and I assume she will be at his Christmas program tomorrow, but we just treat each other like strangers.

She is actually living with OM now though, and my S4 is on the weeks she has him as well. We pass him back and forth every Monday at daycare so we don't have to see each other. The best thing now is that she no longer has any opportunities to treat me like I'm the dog crap under her shoe. The first few months of trying to sort out divorce/kid logistics were terrible because she treated me like I was the lowest of the low while SHE was the one that was cheating on me.. It's a strange phenomenon.

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Yes, it seems like the light switch flipped in a second and then the person you knew has become the exact opposite (mirror image) of the one you actually knew. It truly didn't happen over night. It was a very, very gradual move towards the light switch being flipped. If you can go back to approximately 18-24 months ago, something began the journey for him. Things began to change in a very subtle way, i.e., so subtle you probably didn't pay much attention to the changes or you chalked them up to a bad day or something else.

The one day, the pod person completely takes over and then the acting out and bad behavior, the MLC lingo begins and then they are gone. Some will eventually wake up and want to return, others will wake up, but also continue some of those traits that they picked up along the way and others will leave completely and be angry and bitter old people in the years to come and....then you have some that continue to be pod people living in their own littles worlds (that is what my xh is doing these days). Unfortunately, they don't snap back into normal mode. It will take months, even years, before they will begin the gradual descent back into the real world and that will be approximately 18-24 months and will happen in the exact opposite way that they left this world.

While he's gone, you, as the mature, sane adult are left dealing w/day to day life. No expectations because they will not always follow through and you will get angry, disgusted and disappointed. While they are gone, come up w/a Plan B, i.e., a back up plan for helping you out as you can't rely on your spouse.

Dig deeper for patience, come here to vent and we will try to help you navigate your walk on the yellow brick road.


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Originally Posted by NewLife3


Nope. Same story for me.. My W and I were perfectly fine and then within just a few days she was completely cold, distant, and gone emotionally within a few weeks gone physically. I used to say it would be easier if she had just died because it would be concrete and closure would be easier. It's been 4 months since BD for me and 3 months since she moved out and I will tell you that it gets a wholllllleeee lot easier. My W has made it easy on me though because we no longer see each other or speak under any circumstances, she isn't playing with my emotions with any breadcrumbs or anything. We see each other at rare events like my S4's dental surgery appointment and I assume she will be at his Christmas program tomorrow, but we just treat each other like strangers.


It is the fact that H is treating me like a total stranger (although we still stay in the same house) that is killing me!!! I am relieved that he atleast treats the kids the same, although he has neglected some of his responsibilities to them (e.g., school dropoffs, etc.). This makes me wonder though how he is able to compartmentalize the kids v. me. I am the "problem," in his eyes, I guess.

Also, I am not even sure how much to tell our families during the holidays because he is not "participating". I don't want to lie, but I also don't want to reveal all that is truly going on just in case - the rare case - he bounces back in 2020 and changes his mind about wanting a divorce, staying out all hours of the night, etc. (Not likely but a gal can dream, can't I?)

Last edited by HesAble; 12/19/19 06:49 PM.

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Originally Posted by HesAble

Also, I am not even sure how much to tell our families during the holidays because he is not "participating". I don't want to lie, but I also don't want to reveal all that is truly going on just in case - the rare case - he bounces back in 2020 and changes his mind about wanting a divorce, staying out all hours of the night, etc. (Not likely but a gal can dream, can't I?)


I'm going to give you a spoiler on the DB'ing process. For some this comes sooner than it comes for others, but when you first being DB'ing you have in the back of your mind that you're doing these things to focus on yourself and become the best person you can be to lead your WAS back home. The whole lighthouse and keeping the road home smooth analogy.

What eventually happens though is you will find yourself and the person you truly want to be and you will discover that you don't really want your WAS back much anymore. For me it has taken a few months but I'm to the point that I am like.. if someone can treat me this terribly and walk completely out of my life like it means nothing to them, then 1) they're much more likely to do it in the future and 2) I don't deserve to have someone treat me like this... There are so many other great people in the world that would never treat us this way.

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My H was like that at first. Distant, cold, angry. I could feel the resentment coming off him in waves every time we were in the same room. Rewrote our M history. Lashed out at just about everyone around him. The peak of this was right around BD1 (ILYB) nine months ago.

I read DR and the 7 Principles and implemented 180s, GAL, validating and listening (rather than trying to defend myself or accuse him of something back), and turning towards his bids when they did come-- very rarely at first, but more and more often. I feel like we went from negative sentiment override to positive sentiment override. We stopped fighting and now are getting along better than we have in years.

I just share this as I'm still in the same boat in terms of my H not "waking up" in wanting to work on the M, but the alien is gone. I don't know what that all means but just a different experience than some others. And part of me is weirdly envious-- it seems easier to detach and grieve the R when your H is an a**hole alien vs a nicer version of himself in nearly every way... except he can't let go of AP.

Anyway. Hang in there. Good for you in still making fun Christmas plans and not letting him ruin them.


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Originally Posted by NewLife3

I'm going to give you a spoiler on the DB'ing process. For some this comes sooner than it comes for others, but when you first being DB'ing you have in the back of your mind that you're doing these things to focus on yourself and become the best person you can be to lead your WAS back home. The whole lighthouse and keeping the road home smooth analogy.

What eventually happens though is you will find yourself and the person you truly want to be and you will discover that you don't really want your WAS back much anymore. For me it has taken a few months but I'm to the point that I am like.. if someone can treat me this terribly and walk completely out of my life like it means nothing to them, then 1) they're much more likely to do it in the future and 2) I don't deserve to have someone treat me like this... There are so many other great people in the world that would never treat us this way.


This week I have already been saying this - I am not sure I will really want my WAH back if he ever comes back. Everyone keeps saying that WAHs and MLCers sometimes come back then leave again. It has only been 1 month post-DB. Is it unusual for me to already be feeling this way? I am so conflicted and confused on this emotional roller coaster ride.


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Originally Posted by HesAble

This week I have already been saying this - I am not sure I will really want my WAH back if he ever comes back. Everyone keeps saying that WAHs and MLCers sometimes come back then leave again. It has only been 1 month post-DB. Is it unusual for me to already be feeling this way? I am so conflicted and confused on this emotional roller coaster ride.


Nope.. I would say you're right on track with the timeline we see on these boards. Honestly the sooner that you begin to feel that way, the better, because it shows that you're beginning to see your own self-worth. The sooner that you realize that they're gone and your goal should not be to win them back but for them to win YOU back because they're the ones that left the marriage... the greater your chances of earning the WAS's respect again. You don't want them to come back and you take them in with open arms because nothing would've been accomplished in that scenario other than the WAS proving that they can treat you however they want and you'll just take them right back..

Again.. No respect. And they'll probably leave at some point in the future. But if they truly have to FIGHT to come back into your life not only with words, but actions.. That's when/how their respect for you is rebuilt. Do not be a doormat.

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Originally Posted by NewLife3


Nope.. I would say you're right on track with the timeline we see on these boards. Honestly the sooner that you begin to feel that way, the better, because it shows that you're beginning to see your own self-worth. The sooner that you realize that they're gone and your goal should not be to win them back but for them to win YOU back because they're the ones that left the marriage... the greater your chances of earning the WAS's respect again. You don't want them to come back and you take them in with open arms because nothing would've been accomplished in that scenario other than the WAS proving that they can treat you however they want and you'll just take them right back..

Again.. No respect. And they'll probably leave at some point in the future. But if they truly have to FIGHT to come back into your life not only with words, but actions.. That's when/how their respect for you is rebuilt. Do not be a doormat.


Thanks so much. When I went to talk to a counselor, she also reminded me that I am not a doormat. I appreciate you pointing out for me that my GALing, 180ing, etc. is not to win him back. It is for me. And he should have to win ME back if he ever snaps out of his crisis mode. It is all just so unbelievable!


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Originally Posted by HesAble
Those of you who have been strong enough to stand for years amaze me! Perhaps I will gain that type of strength over time but, right now, just 1 month post-BD, I just want to run away and never see this "alien" again. Unfortunately, we have 2 children so I will have to deal with him, whether he snaps back into reality or not, for the rest of my life perhaps. OMG!!!!!!!!!!!


Well my handle may make it sound like I'm still standing but I moved on long ago. I leave my handle the same so people know it's still me (it always confuses the heck out of me when people change their handles).

Job really nailed it, you don't know if your spouse is going to return to their old self, or partially their old self, or remain an alien. It's up to each of us how long we stand. For me it was about 2 years, and then I pushed my XW for D (she had drawn up the paperwork months earlier but never filed). I started dating others and settled into a LTR with my current GF, 5 years now.

I used to have thoughts similar to NewLife's- that it would be easier to handle your spouse's death than being BD'd by them. Not that I would wish death on my XW, not at all. But at least with death you know the person is gone for good. You grieve and recover and learn to live with the loss. After BD you don't know what to do. Is the person going to return to normal? Should you wait? Are they gone forever and you should move on? It's very confusing and frustrating, and very painful to go through.


Originally Posted by NewLife3
if someone can treat me this terribly and walk completely out of my life like it means nothing to them, then 1) they're much more likely to do it in the future and 2) I don't deserve to have someone treat me like this... There are so many other great people in the world that would never treat us this way.


This is quite true, but there's also that nagging thought that this may be temporary and that maybe they are going through something akin to being sick and therefore we might feel it's incumbent upon us to wait it out for their sake. I think almost every one of us would agree that our old spouse, the one we married, would NEVER BD us and leave us like this. This act is so out of character for the person we thought we knew. My "real" W would never have left me, she would have fought tooth and nail to make things work. The person she became just simply gave up, kept saying "I don't want to try". So that's a struggle for the LBS to be sure.

When I said my XW has slowly returned to 50% of my old W, she has slowly regained some of her sense of humor and some of her old interests and (apparently) some of her fondness for me. But before, she had a razor-sharp memory and could remember everything about our M in stunning detail. After BD she became very fuzzy and remembered only the bad things as so many WAS's do. Now she seems to remember almost nothing, good or bad. My kids will bring up old events she used to talk about over and over to friends and family and she remembers nothing at all about them, it's really strange. We've settled into a "kinder, gentler" relationship than we had in the months after BD. Not that she was ever mean and angry, but she was very cold and distant and isn't anymore. We do things together with the kids now and then and then we go our separate ways and that works fine for us.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
This is quite true, but there's also that nagging thought that this may be temporary and that maybe they are going through something akin to being sick and therefore we might feel it's incumbent upon us to wait it out for their sake. I think almost every one of us would agree that our old spouse, the one we married, would NEVER BD us and leave us like this.


Yes, I definitely alternate between the feelings you describe, HesAble, and what AnotherStander describes here. Six months in, it's harder and harder to imagine ever being able to trust my H again in the future, given how absolutely certain I was before BD he would never treat me this way, which makes me very sad. It doesn't seem right that a love that I felt was solid should so quickly dissolve.

At the same time, when he acts like a teenager, I find myself thinking maybe, maybe he will grow up and out of this phase. In my gut I feel that my H is lost and desperate to stop hurting, and if I was in the same state, I would pray that my H would have faith and some constancy, at least for some time, given how long we've been together.

Which I guess is why it's important to remember that it's a decision I make day by day, to try to keep even a sliver of that faith. And even on days I don't feel that faith, I guess the answer is the same: I keep moving forward, hour by hour. Who knows what the future will bring?

Of course, sometimes those hours are torturous! I'm thinking about your earlier comment, and about the nights when I wake up and hear my H come in at 2 or 3 or 4 a.m., knowing he'll be up at 6 to go to work. I think: teenager! I think: How long can he possibly maintain this lifestyle? I go back to sleep. But sometimes I spend too much time awake, feeling frustrated or angry.

I'm glad you asked this question, because it's helpful to read all of these responses and know we're not alone.


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Originally Posted by job
Unfortunately, they don't snap back into normal mode. It will take months, even years, before they will begin the gradual descent back into the real world and that will be approximately 18-24 months and will happen in the exact opposite way that they left this world.


Job, would you mind explaining more of what you mean by "in the exact opposite way that they left this world"? (Or pointing me to another thread that explains this.)

Originally Posted by job

Dig deeper for patience, come here to vent and we will try to help you navigate your walk on the yellow brick road.



Thank you. What would we do without this space and the kind people in it?


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Originally Posted by cardinal
I'm thinking about your earlier comment, and about the nights when I wake up and hear my H come in at 2 or 3 or 4 a.m., knowing he'll be up at 6 to go to work. I think: teenager! I think: How long can he possibly maintain this lifestyle? I go back to sleep. But sometimes I spend too much time awake, feeling frustrated or angry.

I'm glad you asked this question, because it's helpful to read all of these responses and know we're not alone.


I wonder the same thing about how on Earth it will be possible for them to maintain the lifestyle of staying out all night and then having to work the next day. My H runs his own business so he has some flexibility but I have seen him come in at 4 am and head back out at 7 am for work. I even asked him, “How can you operate on so little sleep?” He was like, “I dunno.” He was always a night owl though.


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Cardinal,

When a person enters MLC, then begin first by distancing themselves from their spouse, kids, pets. home, family, friends and co-workers. They begin to do things that they wouldn't normally have done in the past. When they begin to gradually come back to the real world from the land of Oz, they will begin by reconnecting with their co-workers, friends, family, home, pets, kids and finally you, the spouse. If you are one of the lucky ones that has a spouse wanting to return and he/she comes home, it will take approximately 18-24 months before they finally settled down and feel comfortable in their own skin. When the return home, that will be hardest part of the journey because you both will have changed and will need to remember that this will be a new marriage for both of you. You, the spouse, will need to dig deeper for patience and understanding and allow the MLCer time to come to you and talk about things and you will need to become a very good listener. Neither of you will be the same. MLC changes both of you.

Here's a link that will help you to better understand "reconnection" once they begin to truly wake up.

TMAK - Explanation of Reconnection

I apologize for the hi-jack on this thread.




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Thank you, Job! I can only hope I'll get to experience that reverse connection at some point...

HesAble, my H was always a night owl too. Now I'm thinking there's got to be a difference between staying up late watching TV or whatever and his new ritual of going to bars and/or concerts almost every night. It makes me exhausted just thinking about it.


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Originally Posted by cardinal
...HesAble, my H was always a night owl too. Now I'm thinking there's got to be a difference between staying up late watching TV or whatever and his new ritual of going to bars and/or concerts almost every night. It makes me exhausted just thinking about it.


I have no idea where my H goes because he never tells me, but I cannot imagine there is any bar, club that stays open until 6 a.m. when he comes in at 7 a.m. and later. Some nights he comes in earlier (e.g., 4 a.m.) but it is just random. I am assuming he is at some OW's home. It really makes me angry thinking about it.

Last edited by HesAble; 12/20/19 09:09 PM.

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Please do not "assume" anything when it comes to your spouses. There are a couple of possibilities of where he may have been after hours, i.e., sleeping in his vehicle, staying over a friends place or just riding around. When we assume something, it makes us that much more frustrated and angry. The best thing to think he is innocent until proven guilty. He will eventually tell on himself.


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Originally Posted by job
Please do not "assume" anything when it comes to your spouses. There are a couple of possibilities of where he may have been after hours, i.e., sleeping in his vehicle, staying over a friends place or just riding around. When we assume something, it makes us that much more frustrated and angry. The best thing to think he is innocent until proven guilty. He will eventually tell on himself.


I will try not to assume but, because he has always had a high libido and now won't touch me with a 10 foot pole plus because he has been unfaithful before, I assume he is with some OW. I will try hard to stop assuming.

Last edited by HesAble; 12/20/19 11:23 PM.

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My H goes out random nights of the week and stays out all night, but one thing I can be sure of is that he will definitely hang out a lot on the weekend. I used to live for weekends. Now I hate to see the weekend coming because I know he will be coming in mornings, stressing me.

During the weekday, I stay busy and am generally in the office, taking kids to extracurricular activities, etc. When the weekend comes, there is just more down time (although I generally am still moderately busy with kids activities and church) and more time to think about H. Gonna have to work harder to GAL on the weekend.

Last edited by HesAble; 12/21/19 01:00 AM.

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Hesable- just curious, have your children asked any questions regarding H’s behavior?


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Originally Posted by Woosa
Hesable- just curious, have your children asked any questions regarding H’s behavior?


My daughter asked one morning, "Where's daddy?" Also, I have heard my son pulling apart the shades late at night to look outside when I do not recall him doing this before. One night I heard him go down to the basement and come back to his room. They have both asked me, "Are you ok?" on multiple occasions when I was trying to hold it together in the beginning right after the BD.

Even before the BD, H would generally come home from "work" on weekdays when the children were in bed, so they probably don't think it is that unusual to go to bed when he is not at home. He is generally home by the time they wake up around 7 a.m. There were two or three times when he came in much later in the morning (on weekends or a Monday). On weekends, however, my oldest child stays up later gaming and I think that is how he has noticed that something is off.

Also, of course they have to notice how cold and distant H has been to me (when he used to be affectionate - he was the guy who would make a stranger gag with PDA) even though they have never asked questions or mentioned it. He is still warm and fuzzy with them during the few times he is around.

Last edited by HesAble; 12/21/19 02:41 AM.

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Another morning of waking up and seeing that H has not come home. A good friend said she would ask him to get his own place if he needs to stay out all night so often, but I truly need him to contribute to mortgage and bills. If he moved, it would just cause financial issues. I am trying now to save in the event he decides to just leave.

Bah humbug.


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Originally Posted by HesAble
On weekends, however, my oldest child stays up later gaming and I think that is how he has noticed that something is off.

Also, of course they have to notice how cold and distant H has been to me (when he used to be affectionate - he was the guy who would make a stranger gag with PDA) even though they have never asked questions or mentioned it.


I'm sorry to hear that. It is rough. I've noticed that my eldest notices very quickly when H leaves his sight these days and immediately asks where dad is going. They also have not asked questions yet but I'm pretty sure they sense something is off.

You're gonna get there. I remember those days when I'd get really anxious and I'd wake up in the middle of the night to see if he's home yet. and then he started not coming home at all. there was no notice, just sudden absence. And now I also rather for him to move out completely but I haven't brought it up. Still just taking it one day at a time to see where this thing goes....

hang in there!


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Woosa: Yes, "one day at a time" is my new mantra. I am trying to focus more of self-care than I have in the past. I realize the stress from this will wear me down if I don't look out for myself.


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I feel so disrespected when my H does these hurtful things without apologizing (e.g., coming in at 6 and 7 a.m. after being out all night). The disrespect angers me. For those who have been DBing for a while, how did you get past the feeling disrespected and angry? It is killing me.

My feeling is that even if you want to divorce me, how can you mistreat me this way when I have been loyal to you for 14 years+? Thank goodness he is nice and warm to the children (although I do wonder how was able to completely switch to ice cold with me in a matter of 24 hours). It really is like a body snatcher took my real H and left me with a complete jerk.

Last edited by HesAble; 12/21/19 05:21 PM.

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Originally Posted by HesAble
I feel so disrespected when my H does these hurtful things without apologizing (e.g., coming in at 6 and 7 a.m. after being out all night). The disrespect angers me. For those who have been DBing for a while, how did you get past the feeling disrespected and angry? It is killing me.

My feeling is that even if you want to divorce me, how can you mistreat me this way when I have been loyal to you for 14 years+? Thank goodness he is nice and warm to the children (although I do wonder how was able to completely switch to ice cold with me in a matter of 24 hours). It really is like a body snatcher took my real H and left me with a complete jerk.


I just assume that's what has happened (the body snatching) and try to realize that this isn't about us (the LBS). They are going through their own struggle and I try to be empathetic to that. The more I realize this is their issue, the less their words/actions affect me.

Not sure if that helps but over time it'll get a little easier. Whether it's positive or negative you can't read into anything they are saying at this point. It took my WW 10 months to apologize for staying out until 3am on the weekends while I was at home looking after our son. Patience and understanding are key...use this time to connect more with your kids and work on yourself.


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When my former h was doing this, I would just ignore what he was doing and tried not to react to his disrespectful behavior. I eventually began to look at him as a roommate and nothing more.

Have you given any thought to the fact that he might be doing this to get you so angry that you would say something...hence a fight would happen? Sometimes they do things like this to get us to pick a fight w/them to justify why they are doing stuff and then it helps them to open the door and leave.

Sit quietly, do not react to his poor behavior. He's a man/child right now and doesn't think about anyone else but himself. Let's see if he continues this behavior after Christmas. At his age, he certainly can't continue burning the candle at both ends w/o getting run down and/or sick.


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Originally Posted by HesAble
For those who have been DBing for a while, how did you get past the feeling disrespected and angry? It is killing me.

My feeling is that even if you want to divorce me, how can you mistreat me this way when I have been loyal to you for 14 years+?.


I used to feel so much anger too, HesAble. I was just writing on my thread about how it's harder now when he is home than when he's out. Just like you say, it seems like one thing for our S to want a divorce, another for them to treat us with less respect than a stranger would after all these years.

I try to let the anger move through me. It helped to have others to vent to, because I didn't want to hold on to the anger, and I didn't want H to see it either. The 'old' me would have given him the reaction he was expecting--any reaction. Part of my 180 is realizing I can't control his decisions, but I can try to not let them affect me or my PMA.

I've only been at this for about six months, but it has gotten somewhat easier to maintain calm. When I do feel anger, it doesn't last as long as it used to, for the reasons mentioned by jac and Job, and probably because I've just gotten used to his behavior. I try to remind myself this is not about me and this is not normal H; this is MLC H grasping for happiness. I come here and read threads and try to summon more empathy for what he may be going through.

That said, he just left the house without saying a word to me (which has been his practice for a while now), and it still makes me a little mad, probably because I can remember when he did at least say bye. It's a process, I guess!


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I confided in a few really supportive friends (one is divorced but she was the WAW) about what I am going through. I wish I never had because two of them (especially the WAW) are so pessimistic about the prospect of the marriage being saved.

I have now gotten a counselor to talk to (wish I had done that earlier) but my friends check in regularly and ask questions, then start talking about what a narcissist I am with and how I should just take steps to prepare for divorce. One asks how on earth I could ever trust H again, particularly since I have no idea where he hangs out all night.This may be true but hearing it is not helping me with the DB process.

Thank God for this board where I can get positive reinforcement.


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I am glad you have found an IC--I hope he/she gives you the kind of support you need, and if not, don't be afraid to consult with some others if you think it's not the right fit. I'm sorry some of your friends contribute more to the negativity. It's such hard work to stay positive and not get sucked in to the S's version of everything, IMO. It's also hard to walk away feeling worse, instead of better, after you've confided in a friend. I have two friends in particular who I've found myself confiding in the most, because they understand that I need help staying positive, and they get why I'd want to have hope in the first place.

I also feel like it was important for me to be able to tell these friends what kind of support I needed early on, i.e. I need to vent about H, but I don't want you to get angry at H too; I need you to help me have a greater, more loving perspective in this moment. Do you think your friends would be responsive if you told them what kind of support would be most helpful to you right now?


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Yes, and keep in mind your friends typically just want to see you happy and they think you'll be happy quicker if you divorce.

One thing I learned was that I should never have talked to my friends or even really my family about all this - just makes it harder if things end up working out.

You really need to do your best to separate yourself from his mess. Figure out how you can be a better partner in the future - with him or someone else...only time will tell and nobody has any idea.


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Originally Posted by jac12
Yes, and keep in mind your friends typically just want to see you happy and they think you'll be happy quicker if you divorce.

One thing I learned was that I should never have talked to my friends or even really my family about all this - just makes it harder if things end up working out.

You really need to do your best to separate yourself from his mess. Figure out how you can be a better partner in the future - with him or someone else...only time will tell and nobody has any idea.


I am not sure. I think the two that are negative secretly never liked H in the first place so they now feel validated in their initial concerns about him. They have both called him a narcissist and said they always saw narcissistic tendencies. One says he is being mean in a very passive-aggressive way and she thinks I am in an emotionally abusive situation. H has never hit me but she thinks he is controlling me by threatening this divorce. She has also told me that another friend could not stand him, but never told me; I have not confided in that friend, thank goodness because I don't need more negativity.

Nevertheless, it is worth a try to tell the friends I have already confided in what kind of support I need.

Last edited by HesAble; 12/22/19 12:18 AM.

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Try thinking about it this way- your H is in crisis and he has trouble managing even his own issues, so to expect him to think in your shoes and how you feel etc is pointless. Also key word- expectations. You are angry because you expect to be treated better. You expect that he keeps a minimum level of consideration. Let go of that expectation. Resentment grows when expectations are not met, and it’s not good for your PMA.

Friends can only speculate because they are not living your life and they never have. Nobody knows your sitch better than you do, only you can decide whether it is the right decision to stand for your M. I haven’t updated the few close friends who knows about my situation in awhile, mainly because I find the forum to be a better outlet for me than my friends. Friends tend to choose sides, either way doesn’t really help you looking at things from a neutral perspective. Hang in there, time is on your side.


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Originally Posted by Woosa
Try thinking about it this way- your H is in crisis and he has trouble managing even his own issues, so to expect him to think in your shoes and how you feel etc is pointless. Also key word- expectations. You are angry because you expect to be treated better. You expect that he keeps a minimum level of consideration. Let go of that expectation. Resentment grows when expectations are not met, and it’s not good for your PMA.

Friends can only speculate because they are not living your life and they never have. Nobody knows your sitch better than you do, only you can decide whether it is the right decision to stand for your M. I haven’t updated the few close friends who knows about my situation in awhile, mainly because I find the forum to be a better outlet for me than my friends. Friends tend to choose sides, either way doesn’t really help you looking at things from a neutral perspective. Hang in there, time is on your side.



You are right about friends only being able to speculate. I have neglected in good times to tell them about sweet things that H did and only spoke about negative things. Generally when all is well, we forget sometimes to mention the good.


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Today's Mood: today I do not want to see or hear from H. The mere sight of him angers me. After breaking my heart, he is walking around like he is having the time of his life. I do not want to become the bitter ex. I wish I could get off this emotional roller coaster.


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Originally Posted by HesAble
I wish I could get off this emotional roller coaster.


That's your choice...this is his roller coaster and the more you detach and GAL, the less emotionally reactive you'll be to his actions.

Might be easy to say and hard to do but you have to start somewhere. Pretend you are observing this person through a glass jar - it might help you to step outside of yourself a little.


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Originally Posted by jac12
Originally Posted by HesAble
I wish I could get off this emotional roller coaster.


That's your choice...this is his roller coaster and the more you detach and GAL, the less emotionally reactive you'll be to his actions.

Might be easy to say and hard to do but you have to start somewhere. Pretend you are observing this person through a glass jar - it might help you to step outside of yourself a little.

You're right. I am definitely trying especially during the holidays. Today I was whining to my sister about H's latest shenanigans and she was like, "I don't care about him. We are not ruining our holidays talking about that [expletive]." I needed that.


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