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Gerda Rises Up to Go On

I'm going back to the beginning of Gerda's story. Not because I am stuck there but because I realized I never understood the beginning of my own story, I mean the real me, my life before H and before H's MLC. I am trying to understand more of my own wounds now with the hope that I can let it go and heal in a new way and become the self I was meant to become, even as H's MLC story gets worse and worse....

Story the First,

Which Describes a Looking-Glass and the Broken Fragments.

YOU must attend to the commencement of this story, for when we get to the end we shall know more than we do now about a very wicked hobgoblin; he was one of the very worst, for he was a real demon. One day, when he was in a merry mood, he made a looking-glass which had the power of making everything good or beautiful that was reflected in it almost shrink to nothing, while everything that was worthless and bad looked increased in size and worse than ever. The most lovely landscapes appeared like boiled spinach, and the people became hideous, and looked as if they stood on their heads and had no bodies. Their countenances were so distorted that no one could recognize them, and even one freckle on the face appeared to spread over the whole of the nose and mouth. The demon said this was very amusing. When a good or pious thought passed through the mind of any one it was misrepresented in the glass; and then how the demon laughed at his cunning invention. All who went to the demon’s school—for he kept a school—talked everywhere of the wonders they had seen, and declared that people could now, for the first time, see what the world and mankind were really like. They carried the glass about everywhere, till at last there was not a land nor a people who had not been looked at through this distorted mirror. They wanted even to fly with it up to heaven to see the angels, but the higher they flew the more slippery the glass became, and they could scarcely hold it, till at last it slipped from their hands, fell to the earth, and was broken into millions of pieces. But now the looking-glass caused more unhappiness than ever, for some of the fragments were not so large as a grain of sand, and they flew about the world into every country. When one of these tiny atoms flew into a person’s eye, it stuck there unknown to him, and from that moment he saw everything through a distorted medium, or could see only the worst side of what he looked at, for even the smallest fragment retained the same power which had belonged to the whole mirror. Some few persons even got a fragment of the looking-glass in their hearts, and this was very terrible, for their hearts became cold like a lump of ice. A few of the pieces were so large that they could be used as window-panes; it would have been a sad thing to look at our friends through them. Other pieces were made into spectacles; this was dreadful for those who wore them, for they could see nothing either rightly or justly. At all this the wicked demon laughed till his sides shook—it tickled him so to see the mischief he had done. There were still a number of these little fragments of glass floating about in the air, and now you shall hear what happened with one of them.

Last edited by job; 12/08/19 02:40 PM. Reason: added link to previous thread

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It’s after midnight.

Happy Birthday!


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Happy birthday Gerda. Wishing you a peaceful day.


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Happy Birthday, dear Gerda. Thinking of you often.


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DnJ, Scout, Grace, OwnIt, HaWho, thank you so much for all the messages for my b-day.

Am meeting a friend and her kid with my kids for dinner, tried to find something to do. I had a bit of a setback with that OW sleepover situation and my D so upset and wanting to talk. I was able to get her Sunday school teacher to chat with her because I realized it was just too much for me. She is an amazing lady and young and fun but old enough to be married with a kid, so it was amazing. They came up with a plan to write H a bunch of letters and not mail them but talk about them with each other. After D10 kept telling me happily that her teacher said she was a special person.

Thank you, everyone, for the friendship. I am not going to lie, this birthday really was not a good one, I was really low but able to talk to some friends and family, going out now in GAL style -- but it was amazing to have friends out there in DB land sending so many wishes.


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More fireworks today on the legal front.

I signed a really bad deal and I stupidly though H would allow me to buy him out of our little cabin in a reasonable way. If I end up losing our city place, I wanted for me and the kids to have one thing left that we love. There is very little equity in it and it is a very special place to us. I offered to pay him the appraised value less mortgage and closing costs (broker's fee, cap gains, etc). He said no and came up with a number that he could only get, after all the closing costs and paying off the mortgage, if the place sold for 50K over the appraised value. It could also take many many months for him to actually get the money.

I am thinking about backing out of the terrible deal and going to trial. I feel like I am negotiating with terrorists and that the bad deal I signed has no benefits for me in it, I am doing all the paying and all the suffering and getting nothing for it.

I don't have the money to pay my lawyer to go to trial, and I know it is a waste of money and against my beliefs.

I also know that my lawyer isn't very good but that I can't afford one who would actually be able to fight for me in a strategic way.

But I was thinking about bluffing, pushing toward trial and hoping that they would settle on the way. Because if I had to sell the places out of a trial, he would not be able to sell them on his own, without my participation. I would be an equal partner in the sale and he would have to wait a lot longer.

It would be months away and lots more misery. I would love to end this right now, today, but our agreement allows him to sell the place for six more months, he would not agree to any settlement on our place unless I added A MILLION DOLLARS to the appraised value. I also have to wait to find out if I will get a refinance and need some more time for that anyway.

But at a trial I would have a different judge. I'd be an equal partner in a sale. I might have a better deal than what I have now which is also months more and lots more misery and owing the lawyer a lot.

What do you all think?

Last edited by Gerda; 12/09/19 10:33 PM.

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Happy belated birthday dear Gerda smile

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Gerda, I'd love to be able to tell you what I think you want to hear, but it isn't in me to do that. You asked, so I'm going to respond.

1. Do not back out of the deal unless you find an attorney you like and respect who tells you that you would be better off backing out of the deal. None of us knows the deal, the risks, the likelihoods, the law where you are, etc. This is absolutely worth a consultation fee.

2. Try to lose your attachment to particular outcomes. It is that attachment that gives him leverage. You make it very easy for him to see what he has to do to get what he wants. Children remember events and time, not things. Your children will do fine whether they have a vacation home or whatever. This is a crap deal for all of you, but it will be over and then you can rebuild. You got here on your effort, and you can go further without a dead weight in the future.

3. Don't bluff. Not ever. If you back out and can't afford an attorney for trial, make sure you are comfortable with representing your case and your positions. I'm not saying I don't think you couldn't handle it, I'm just saying make sure you accept that is the likely scenario.

4. If you let go of your attachments to keeping these properties and can make him believe that, he may be more concerned heading into a trial where he could do significantly worse.

5. Would backing out on the property involve changing the custody/support/visitation issues with the children, and how would you feel about it if it did?

6. Are you positive you would have a different judge, or are you just betting that based on rotation and probability? Are you positive you wouldn't get a worse one?

Think carefully and unemotionally before you make this decision. Don't do it rashly, and be prepared for both the possibility of better and worse outcomes and how you feel about them, as well as how you think you would handle the stress of having this still over your head.

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I agree 100% w/OwnIt. Please listen to the sage advice that she is giving you. Gerda, you need to keep your emotions out of the courtroom when you are attempting to make deals. Whatever attachment that you have to these places is understandable....however, now it is time to cut those ties w/that vacation home. You can always rebuild or purchase something else later down the road once your finances have been cleaned up.

There is no guarantee that you will have a different judge if you went to trial. This is now a business deal and you've got to leave those emotions at the door. Your emotions are what keeps you in a whirlwind all of the time.

Please, please reread OwnIt's posting....it is very important that you do this over and over again.


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Gerda - I agree with OwnIt. Think very carefully before you make any decisions. I wonder how much your emotions show when you face H in court, or any other time for that matter. Dig deep and keep emotions out of it. You can cry, rant, rave, or whatever when you are alone or to a friend. If he knows you are desperate to keep the properties, he will certainly go after them harder.

I don't remember the events, but did you and H go to mediation? If not, is that possible?

In any event, get good legal counsel before you do anything.

One other thing. You mentioned that going to trial is against your beliefs. How so? This is a business deal pure and simple. Treat it as such.

(((Gerda)))

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Hello Gerda

I agree with Own, job, and Grace - very good advice there.

Your attachment to the property is something that can be exploited. I do understand your desire to hang on to the place. Remember this is a business deal, leave emotions out of it.

Like a kid in the sandbox with a toy, as soon as you don’t show interest in it, the bully doesn’t want it anymore. But, you need to really mean it, to really be there. I’m not saying that will happen, that H will loose interest, it’s just the place you need to get too when negotiating with H. Don’t forget he is irrational and will “think” emotionally. As you said it was like negotiating with a terrorist.

You bluff idea sounds interesting. I do think there is too much on the table to risk with such a maneuver. However, a lawyer really needs to be consulted to look over all the aspects of your situation, and provide a solid answer on the best course of action regarding that. That being said, Own’s reasoning/advice is pretty solid, in my layman opinion.

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Thank you, Everyone! Lots to think about.

Gosh, Own, I wish YOU were my lawyer!

I will write more later after I have done a little more research and thought about all your advice. But I wanted to tell you that I am positive we have another judge if we go to trial, my judge told us that. I have the worst judge in the system, so while I might get another bad judge, I cannot get a worse one. And I am pretty sure that ANY other judge would care more about kids than this one, as this one does not care about kids at all, has never asked about them or considered the effect of anything on them including H's constant threats to move back in or H not paying any child support.

I am not emotional in court. I am no contact with H except for texts about picking up D10. He still sends me long texts but I don't reply except with a few words confirming times, etc. He is blocked from my e-mail. I usually keep my head in a book. I was a little fiery last court time if you recall -- I had a moment of telling H he was selling our kids and he ran out of the court room and I almost got into an altercation with H's lawyer because I did not back down when he came at me threateningly. That was the only time I showed emotion. Usually I just stay with my head in a book and listen to what I need to hear and block out the rest.

You are right that he will use what he knows I want -- he knows very well that the one thing I will avoid at all costs is him moving back in. So he uses that constantly and it is the reason I signed the deal last time. He also threatened that all day on Dec 1 when he thought I was late with the payment for that day (I wasn't). I finally texted him I would be blocking him from texts if he ever did that again and that was it for the day.

I don't think I could go pro se. I am too weary in the ol' soul.

About this other house -- this is one of my businesses, it is a rental business but we go there a lot as it started out as a family place. So I want to keep it also for financial reasons. But if my city place gets sold, we will lose so much in taxes and other costs, plus splitting it and paying off all debts at once, that I will not be able to afford to buy anything in the city. I would rent a teeny place in the city and live at the other place on school holidays and rent it out the rest of the time. And I am a little worried if it goes on the market it could actually go for more than the appraisal price. So it's not actually all emotional. I would say 50% emotional and 50% finance-savvy. But I am okay with losing everything as long as I have my kids. I know I can make something new with them. I just think it's worth a shot since H is fighting tooth and nail no matter how much I compromise, there is not really any point in surrendering it as I would have to wait anyway while he plays the market, he won't take a straight buy out and wants to pull my strings for as long as he can.

I think my L is whipped and tired. I think he also needs a shot in the arse to think I am ready to go to trial in order to start fighting a little harder. He does not want to go to trial but I don't think it's because of me. I have caught him lying a couple times about the odds. Today he said the new judge would force a sale with out a trial, and I said, "No, I have a right to a trial, and he said, Yeah, I mean, after a trial. He just caves all the time -- it's funny, I was thinking today that it's like me with H with all the enabling I did all these years. He would push and push and I would give in to keep the peace, no matter how unfair. When I stopped giving him money, one of the things I did to keep the family together, he filed and used it all against me. NOTE TO NEWBIES -- NEVER EVER EVER GIVE THE MLCer MONEY TO KEEP THE FAMILY TOGETHER! But sometimes I feel like my L is the L version of me and H's L is the L version of him, and they have the same exact dynamic of mine caving into the bullying to avoid further conflict!

Last edited by Gerda; 12/10/19 02:17 AM.

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Thank you for the wishes, dear Westo!


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Originally Posted by OwnIt
If you let go of your attachments to keeping these properties and can make him believe that, he may be more concerned heading into a trial where he could do significantly worse.

5. Would backing out on the property involve changing the custody/support/visitation issues with the children, and how would you feel about it if it did?

Think carefully and unemotionally before you make this decision. Don't do it rashly, and be prepared for both the possibility of better and worse outcomes and how you feel about them, as well as how you think you would handle the stress of having this still over your head.


Also, Own -- Do you think he could do significantly worse or you just mean that that is the risk for all of us at trial? I am not sure he will realize that potential either way as he is extremely delusional. But I wondered what you meant.

There will be no change in custody. He settled that last year, I insisted on settling it before I would discuss anything else. He caved almost instantly. He doesn't care about the kids, I think he just uses D10 to get at me honestly. But maybe he does care about her somewhere in his now-dark heart. Hasn't seen S14 since May.

About the stress -- what I realized is that the stress IS hanging over my head. I agreed to allow H to play the market with my house while I live in it, with his own broker and me not allowed to have any say in any of it, until June. Talk about stressful! So I realized that it would be in a way less stressful to have a trial where at least I didn't feel like a bug pinned to a piece of cardboard. I mean, I do not want a trial, I signed to avoid it. I am just not sure that what I took is any better and might be worse.

But as you say, I need to think long and hard. I might be better off just holding my breath for six months and putting my hands over my ears to say LALALALALALLAALALA while H dances around me with his for sale sign and buyers tromping under the leaking roof and crumbling walls.


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Gerda, it is impossible to answer the question you ask about worse, but whether something is actually worse or someone thinks it is worse are two different things. I can only point out some things I recall you saying.

1. If a sale is forced, and I have no way of knowing if the court would do that on either property, but presumably more likely on the vacation property, it would be at the market rate and you guys would presumably split the proceeds after all mortgages, fees, etc. You might even be able to point out how he has been with money/jobs and get his equity as an advance on his support payments. They do something similar to this in my state. You'd have to check with a NY licensed family attorney.
2. I got the impression you offered him more equity in the deal or a higher price than he would get in a forced sale.
3. Not that I know, but I think it unlikely he would get to call the shots for 6 months on the sale in a forced sale situation. The loss of control over the outcome could be very difficult for someone like him.
4. A new judge may want to stick to either one of you. No way of knowing.
5. A different judge could order him to pay more support if still open (unless statutorily set, and even then might set a higher minimum point) or find that he is intentionally under/unemployed.
6. An appraisal for a buyout could be much higher than he would get in an actual sale if he forces it.
7. Have you looked into the possibility of a straw purchase on the vacation property if you are that intent on keeping it? Is it a possibility where you are? You might end up being able to buy it for way less money than he would make you agree and not have to deal with him (although there are other complexities that have to be considered). Of course you risk losing it to another buyer, but that would mean more money in your pocket.
8. I'm not sure I know why you have to be in the city. I didn't get the impression you had a regular, show-up every day kind of job in a specific place. Could you make the argument that if you have to sell the house to pay him out, then you will have to leave the city? Would that give him pause? Have you and the lawyer discussed whether that is a special consideration for the massively expensive place where you live?

I don't think any judge is going to be very sympathetic to your desire to keep the main property if you can't pay him out his equity or you guys can't come up with a fair appraisal situation or get the financing. I think it even more unlikely that they would entertain arguments about keeping the rental property, even if it is an investment or income property. There is not a lot of sympathy about forcing the sale of investment properties.

I can't stress enough that the desperation you have to hold onto these houses, and thereby agree to something with a tyrant or at an inflated price or other undesirable term, jeopardizes your ability to come out with a fair price and an even distribution of assets. I just don't think the court is going to buy into your various schemes for trying to keep them. It is not what the courts are there for. In some states they make you sell. In some states they let a primary parent hold onto the house until the graduation date. In some states, like mine, they award the house to someone.

You will never know if he was willing to go to the mattresses or cave unless you walk away from what you have, and that just seems risky given how hard this has been for you, the limited resources to carry on the fight, and the distrust you seem to have for your lawyer and the legal system.

Please take your time. Think through everything. Try to come to grips with why it is so important to hold onto the houses. A house is not a home. You've made good investments before and you will make them again I'm sure. Try not to catastrophize.

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Oh wow, Own, so helpful! Thank you!

I have to go through everything again and ponder/think, will try to take the time you mention though some of what is happening is deadline-based.

There are a bunch of things I left out, both because it seemed boring to include it all and also because some of it is too revealing of who/what/where.

But one thing I will say -- I think that H does want to destroy me and hurt me, yes. But mostly he just wants money. He is partly trying to hurt me over these places, but if I had a pile of money to give him for them tomorrow, I am sure he would take it and not care about hurting me by keeping them. I was reading what you were advising Pax, and I think it's similar for me, to figure out how far I want to go in being done with him and being able to start a new life, even if that means I am not getting a fair distribution. Because we have so much debt to deal with, this deal is the first way I will be able to get him to actually take responsibility for all the debt he left me with, but I am pretty sure we will have a hearing just to agree on the debts, even though it's all documented. And it will also enable a buy out, because I would be taking it off his share. The numbers work out well for me, even i I don't get what I deserve. As you say, his poor record helps to justify an advance payment of child support and anything else, but my L said that no judge here would order advance child support taken out of that, it could only happen as part of a deal, and they are not offering much in the way of deals. I would have to make an offer to take a lesser amount if it comes off up front. But basically -- the little cabin is something I could hold on to without a refi (and isn't a straw sale illegal?!), but the other place I would need to secure a refi to do. So I will either secure that refi and be able to do it, our agreement gives me right of first refusal, or I will not secure it and will have to sell.

In other words, that is out of my hands, I either get it and it works, or I don't and we sell. So everyone's advice to not hold on too tightly is built in, I have made my peace with either outcome. If I went to trial and went for sole use til kids are 18, that is the only thing that could change that outcome, but that's the risk and the stress and the expense -- and as you say, I don't have faith in my lawyer and can't afford a better one.

H abandoned us so long ago financially that I rarely think of trying to get what I am "due" for the kids. That might be a mistake or it might be pragmatic. And I saw in the court that it's a tough battle. He makes so little right now, and the imputing attempts were not going very far. It took me eight months just to get him to agree to give me $500 a month for both kids, no health insurance or any other help! and that stupid agreement I signed for the sake of peace and because my judge was so bad allowed him to have child support be a credit for me for later, to not to pay any of it until he gets his money! So that's another thing that I could try for at trial, but I might not get it. And honestly though it's all totally unfair, an extra $500 a month after all this time struggling totally alone would be a help!

It's hard to include all the relevant details here, I hope I didn't overdo it even with all the details I did give. Thank you so much for all your advice, I will study all the posts again tomorrow. I probably should have read everything before I responded to my L, I was quite DIRECT, but that's done, we'll see what response I get from him tomorrow too!

Grace and others have mentioned mediation. I am not sure I understand how that would fit in here. I think H will say no to it, but would that be a way to get the debts on the table and come up with numbers? And is it really expensive? How does anyone convince an MLCer to do that?

Last edited by Gerda; 12/10/19 06:51 AM.

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Gerda,

I posted this over on Grace's thread and hope that you will either visit her thread or this one today:

"Gerda,

Please be careful in sharing things concerning this forum w/your children. Your daughter may be quite chatty around your h and the next thing you know, he will be looking online for the name(s) she's dropping. I don't think you want him or the ow to go looking around the net and discovering your threads and then printing them off and using them against you.

Trust me, this has happened to other posters."


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Thank you, Job. I am not afraid of H or OW seeing anything here. In fact, I would more have to fight my desire that they do see it! But I hear what you are saying and I will keep it in mind for sure. I don't tell my kids much but both have received wonderful letters from a friend here so they do know I have a support group.


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Got a text from H today saying "nevertheless" he couldn't pick up D10 on Wed (third week in a row he has changed or cancelled) because of court. Nevertheless I guess meaning since I forced him to file another motion.

And he always seems to forget that if he can't pick up D10 because of court, neither can I.

I sent it to my L and said what is this and L wrote back, "I don't know, maybe he is filing a motion to compel you to use his broker."

I have not heard from L for a week though I keep calling and sending e-mails to push him on settling one of the big issues before moving forward on the biggest issue.

I have realized that the horrible deal that I signed is even worse than I thought because it has no numbers on it. So H is bullying more than ever and refusing to come to any agreement because we don't agree on what the numbers would be. The biggest part of that is that I calculated everything based on giving H what he would walk away with from a sale. He is calculating it based on the appraisal without any closing costs and we have never even agreed on the marital debt numbers. The closing costs in this case would be the difference in my ability to buy him out or not. So I signed a deal I thought I could afford as a buy out, but it is turning into a deal that forces a sale and leaves me with no power in a sale.

I was already considering pulling out of the deal and going to trial and I did find a new L who seems at least a little better than the current L because he asked all the same questions I have been asking -- e.g., why aren't we filing a motion on X or Y in order to have more leverage, why aren't the kids needs being considered or met?

Now it seems that my decision is made for me. I either keep defending myself with same judge who doesn't care about kids,same lawyer, same bad deal, or I get a new lawyer and a new judge and go to trial.

Last edited by Gerda; 12/16/19 02:42 PM.

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My Dear Gerda - I haven't responded in a bit, but am following along. Sorry for all you are going through. I will echo Job's caution about sharing names on this forum with your kids. That they know you have a support group is one thing, but names are a bit dangerous. Because I knew a few on-line names my H used for various blogs, I easily found them through a basic internet search. Heck, your D10 could even do it. Just be careful.

Originally Posted by Gerda
Now it seems that my decision is made for me. I either keep defending myself with same judge who doesn't care about kids,same lawyer, same bad deal, or I get a new lawyer and a new judge and go to trial.


Why is getting a new lawyer tied to going to trial? Why can't you just switch lawyers and address the outstanding issues? Perhaps I missed a few posts about this along the way.

Looking forward to the 26th. On that day, let's post on my thread if there are any problems with getting together (my plane is late, for example). It will be easy to check the forum from my phone rather than leave a note at the venue.


Grace


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Originally Posted by Grace21
That they know you have a support group is one thing, but names are a bit dangerous. Because I knew a few on-line names my H used for various blogs, I easily found them through a basic internet search. Heck, your D10 could even do it. Just be careful.....

Why is getting a new lawyer tied to going to trial? Why can't you just switch lawyers and address the outstanding issues? Perhaps I missed a few posts about this along the way.

Looking forward to the 26th. On that day, let's post on my thread if there are any problems with getting together (my plane is late, for example). It will be easy to check the forum from my phone rather than leave a note at the venue.


Hiya, Grace -- I have never told them my on-screen name but I didn't think of giving a fake name to DnJ.

Honestly I have nothing to hide from H. I have never said anything here I would not say to his face if I weren't no contact (no contact because of there being no point in saying anything to his face!).

The answer to your L question -- basically, I either proceed with the deal I have, or I make a motion to back out of it because of being coerced into it, and that would difficult to do without asserting that I can't trust my L anymore. Also I don't trust my L anymore! He is totally beaten down and has no fight in him. He doesn't seem to be addressing anything except surrender to every demand L's lawyer forces down my throat. He tried to prove to me that he is fighting for me by telling me he screamed at H's L and called him a fat f--. But he has never filed a single motion to actually get some leverage in this dang thing.

I met with another L today. He gave me the case for not backing out and the case for backing out. He was not pushy at all, if anything he dissuaded me by reminding me many times that it's a possible but uphill and that I screwed up by signing such a terrible deal. I asked a million questions so that I could have the info I need to decide tonight. I am leaning towards hiring him and backing out. He also said that the part about child support in the agreement is easily dismissed because it doesn't follow child support guidelines and is therefore null and void. The rest would be about the coercion. The e-mails from H he said would help support that. He said there is no guarantee that the judge, esp the one I have, will grant the motion,but that at minimum it would hold things up for a few months and might force H to negotiate because he would finally have something to lose. And if the motion doesn't work, I'd just be back with the current agreement. So it seems worth a gamble, even just for the extra child support I might get. Certainly I don't think my current L knows enough about real estate issues or children so even just to negotiate the rest of this deal it might be worth having this guy though he is more expensive.

I don't know, it is all awful! But I think I need the leverage of a motion to start, and the spectre of a trial if that motion works.

At minimum, I realized this -- I have been led by two things up until now. One is fear. Fear of screaming and fear of the judge or whomever else thinking I was wrong. The other is fear that if I fully participated in being more aggressive in this process, H would never be able to come back, that I would no longer be Noble Gerda. I think for the first year I even thought if I delayed long enough, he would wake up. I am being fully honest with myself now, looking back at everything. That was a part of it for me. And still is. I do not want to let myself become too inwardly ugly, and it is confusing when you are fighting for your kids. If I had no kids, I think I would have just signed anything and started a new life. But with kids, I wanted to do it all -- keep this place that will pay for their college education and allow me to still be a full time mom, keep leaving a door open for H's return and not sully myself too much. That's what kept me weak and confused. I don't think I am confused anymore. I think I know I have to fight. Now I am just trying to choose the most likely gamble.

And that sounds good about the 26th plan.

XO


Last edited by Gerda; 12/16/19 10:12 PM.

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Hello Gerda

I never thought about a fake name for my fake name either.

Originally Posted by Gerda
Told my D10 about it a little -- she asked if we could meet DnJ and I told her that actually I was meeting someone from "my group" in real life.

Awe. <sniff>

What a sweet girl.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I have been led by two things up until now. One is fear. Fear of screaming and fear of the judge or whomever else thinking I was wrong. The other is fear that if I fully participated in being more aggressive in this process, H would never be able to come back, that I would no longer be Noble Gerda.

I like your looking within.

Ah, fear. It looks like it’s about to loose it’s grip on you.

You already got screaming and a judge giving you what for. And of course H thinking your wrong. Bah, who cares! They can suck eggs! (Hahaha still love that. Don’t know why). Oh yeah, where was I. So that fear is not near as big as once it seemed.

The next fear, H coming back and Noble Gerda. Do you feel these are tied together? That you must be noble for there to be a chance for H’s return?

I think you are seeing beyond that now. Seeing passed the irrational coupling of those. H’s possible return is mostly decided from his path, not your’s.

Also seeing that it is just business. Understanding that you can still be noble and a beacon while protecting you and your kids. Aggressive doesn’t automatically equate to vindictive. Aggressively defending or protecting someone, even one’s self, is pretty noble IMHO. Of course me, my steed, and my shinny armour... no wait...it a green cape. Right, almost forgot. Besides capes are lighter, and cleaning up after horse would be such a chore. smile

I think I may have lost some of my point in all that.

Gerda, it sounds like you are making a decision on backing out of the deal. Also I like that you are looking at getting a different lawyer. From what he said you signed a poor deal, and worse case you end up right here again. You know your situation best, and this doesn’t sound like too bad a gamble. You know I support you in this. Get mantle sized DnJ out. This is just business and I always encourage listening to one’s lawyer.

Take care

Fred
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Originally Posted by DnJ
Ah, fear. It looks like it’s about to loose it’s grip on you...


Fear has not lost the grip yet but I am starting to battle it.

Like yesterday when I was literally fielding texts from my STBX L about an 11th hour half deal while I was filling out the retainer for the new L, running outside to call my best friend to agonize over what to do (fire or not fire) and finally took the plunge and signed with new lawyer. After I did it, I felt good for an hour, then the fear took hold, hard. I was able to look at it a little and realize that now that I had followed what I thought was best for my kids, I was overcome with feelings of shame and worthlessness. Hello there, Inner Child! So I sat wit that and slowly it went away until this morning when I felt like I had made the right choice and didn't need to apologize for doing what I thought was best for the kids -- and me.

In the afternoon I got word from my new L that H's L had sent him a letter with first paragraph of welcome and second paragraph saying he would be filing for contempt tomorrow. Happy Holidays! I spiraled into panic and fear and then I remembered that this is all to be expected, and all I have to do is weather it, and the worst case scenario is more screaming from judge and me having to follow the bad agreement instead of dismissing it.

Originally Posted by DnJ
The next fear, H coming back and Noble Gerda. Do you feel these are tied together? That you must be noble for there to be a chance for H’s return?

I think you are seeing beyond that now. Seeing passed the irrational coupling of those. H’s possible return is mostly decided from his path, not your’s.


Nice try, Fred Bob Sam Mark Rick Ken Sean Copernicus Shadrach Vassilly Tutenkhamen Gilgamesh Odin Fake DnJ, and I love your line about a return being decided from his path and not mine but we are a looooooooooooong way away from that irrational coupling being consciously uncoupled. I may be able to see it in the old brain but the cellular memory has a loooooooooong way to go. And I still can't help but notice that my path can stay relatively straight or it can amble so far off into the blackberries that no path of H's would ever lead him to a place where he could find me.

Last edited by Gerda; 12/19/19 05:18 AM.

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Gerda, sorry you are still in the thick of it, but I can honestly say that it does get better. It just stinks that you are still dealing with the batchitcraziness.

I hope that the reason for the season sets in soon for you and that you are able to have a wonderful Christmas with the rest of your family. May God bless you and yours this season!!!

SBJ


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Merry Christmas Gerda

May your holiday season be blessed and peaceful and continue into the new year.

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Merry Christmas to all my friends here, and to those following along who have stayed silent... Here is a Christmas poem I love very much, a present to all of you. Another possible title for my thread in this poem -- "With the voices singing in our ears, saying that this was all folly....." XO from Gerda

The Journey Of The Magi
by T.S. Eliot

A cold coming we had of it,
Just the worst time of the year
For a journey, and such a long journey:
The ways deep and the weather sharp,
The very dead of winter.’
And the camels galled, sorefooted, refractory,
Lying down in the melting snow.
There were times we regretted
The summer palaces on slopes, the terraces,
And the silken girls bringing sherbet.
Then the camel men cursing and grumbling
and running away, and wanting their liquor and women,
And the night-fires going out, and the lack of shelters,
And the cities hostile and the towns unfriendly
And the villages dirty and charging high prices:
A hard time we had of it.
At the end we preferred to travel all night,
Sleeping in snatches,
With the voices singing in our ears, saying
That this was all folly.

Then at dawn we came down to a temperate valley,
Wet, below the snow line, smelling of vegetation;
With a running stream and a water-mill beating the darkness,
And three trees on the low sky,
And an old white horse galloped away in the meadow.
Then we came to a tavern with vine-leaves over the lintel,
Six hands at an open door dicing for pieces of silver,
And feet kicking the empty wine-skins.
But there was no information, and so we continued
And arriving at evening, not a moment too soon
Finding the place; it was (you might say) satisfactory.

All this was a long time ago, I remember,
And I would do it again, but set down
This set down
This: were we led all that way for
Birth or Death? There was a Birth, certainly
We had evidence and no doubt. I had seen birth and death,
But had thought they were different; this Birth was
Hard and bitter agony for us, like Death, our death.
We returned to our places, these Kingdoms,
But no longer at ease here, in the old dispensation,
With an alien people clutching their gods.
I should be glad of another death.


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Wait for the Lord with courage.
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Gerda,

How about an update?


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Gerda...checking on things and wanted to wish you a Happy New Year! I would have waited until tomorrow, but I know my schedule won't allow any free time.

I pray that God guides us where we all need to be in 2020!!!


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Happy New Year’s Eve Gerda

I’m not sure what the new year will bring; I don’t have 20/20 vision.

Wishing you the best.

DnJ


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SBJ, thank you so much for the TWO check-ins, WOW. Even just one really warmed my heart, but two was undeniably wonderful and I read both several times though I could not bring myself to post lately. I always remember you in my prayers at Mass and will do so tonight!

Likewise DnJ, as usual thank you for always thinking of me and checking in on me and being PRESENT even in your non-presence.

And you too, Job! I was really touched that you wanted an update!

I am in a period of deep reflection and not really up for posting an update just now -- I think seeing Grace in person had some effect on me of feeling that on-line is too distant and also I am just reflecting and praying a lot in silence -- but wanted to send you all love and best wishes for 2020. I will pop in later with an update about new lawyer and the motion to pull out of the deal as I have court on Tuesday. It was definitely the right choice to switch even though the judge may not accept my request to rescind; I at least have someone who is actually advocating for me and the kids and has strategies for doing so. If it doesn't work, I will at least know that I tried to do all that I could.


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Gerda, reflection and calm are good. You posted a response on my thread that was pretty dead on to what I was simultaneously posting. Good luck in getting the outcome you want.

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Hello Gerda

As Own said, reflecting and calm is good.

Glad to hear that your new lawyer is stepping up and has brought forward strategies you like. Best of luck on Tuesday.

Present. smile

DnJ


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Gerda -

I'm glad you like your new attorney. He seems to have his act together. Good luck on Tuesday.

Quiet reflection is excellent. I use it often. It can allow us to ponder our lives, examine strategies and scenarios, or simply give us peace.

Let us know how it goes on Tuesday, if you feel up to it.

Grace


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Hi Gerda, wondering how things went Tuesday and if you are doing ok?

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Good Morning Gerda

In a cold snap over here. It -28 this morning. As I was sit here at the kitchen table; enjoying a speed coffee, cream and sugar smile , toast and Cheese Whiz, there was a weird smell. It was the auxiliary heater elements in the geothermal furnace kicking in and burning off the dust. A definite sign to stay inside and watch movies. Lol.

Alas, snow also accompanied this cold air, so some snow removal is required. The drifts aren’t too bad only around 8 inches high. In truth I’ll probably wait for better weather to clear the snow. Of course that may not be till April.

How are things out your way? 8 inches of snow? Haha.

Did Tuesday go alright?

Don’t stress or worry about answering; it’s perfectly normal, and a good thing, to take a break and reflect gathering one’s thoughts and beliefs.

Thinking about you.

And staying warm.

DnJ


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Dear friends, Grace, OwnIt, DnJ, thank you for checking up on me.

It did not go well followed by some dentist trauma and a horrifying noro virus but my motion is still not filed so I don't know what is going to happen. I have been working on the affadavit this wekeend as we decided to revise the motion to ask for injunction against him moving back as they are back to the extortion games -- e.g., if you don't give us more money, he will move back on Jan 31.

Didn't have it in me to update when there is so much unknown. And like I said, meeting Grace in person made these web-only relationships feel kind of sad so without actually planning on it I have been just thinking on my own. Lent is coming so there will be a big break for me anyway.

Suffice it to say, it was awful but my new lawyer, though an a##hole and not very nice to me, is an a##hole who knows how to fight for me. It just might be too late to change anything.

I did succeed in renting out my apt in order to take the kids to FL and it was AMAZING. I was so happy there.

Cream and sugar for sure, DnJ, I am lifting a mug of it to you right now. It's spring weather here but I do think of you whenever any heater in either place does anything noticeable. Mostly wishing I could ask you about it and you could tinker about the place in exchange for some naimmoooooannamaooo bars.

Love to you all. Thanks so much for checking on me, seriously.


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Gerda, focusing on the positives, I'm glad you feel that you have someone who will fight for you and that you and the kids had a great time in Florida. I hope there will be more of these happy moments for you this year. Processing is good. Best to you.

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Gerda,

I am very sorry to read that things didn't go well on Tuesday. I hope the lawyer can get things on track and continue to fight for you. Dental trauma is absolutely no fun. I hope everything is better on that front for you.

Congratulations on getting your apt. rented and the trip to Florida was a pleasant break for all of you. The weather has been quite warm here as well. I have flowers up and trees and bushes are starting to bud out. When in town today and saw a spring flowering bush actually in bloom. The birds, squirrels and rabbits are just as confused as we are by the unseasonably warm weather...but we'll take it over the cold, snow and ice.

Please take care of yourself. We are all here for you.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Good Morning Gerda

I hope the winter flu bug didn’t have its claws into you for too long. It is going around here as well. Lots of people sick at work. My crew of ten was down to three for a few days.

It’s nice to hear that you had such a good time in FL. And the apartment is rented. Yay!

You new lawyer sounds like he is fighting for you. Another yay.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I have been working on the affadavit this wekeend as we decided to revise the motion to ask for injunction against him moving back as they are back to the extortion games -- e.g., if you don't give us more money, he will move back on Jan 31.

You nailed it.

Games.

H is using the legal system to his full advantage, like MLCers will. It’s a game of threats for them. Just another way to push your buttons. Leave him to your a##hole awesome lawyer.

I am jealous of your nice weather. It’s a little far from spring flowers over here right now. Lol.

I do empathize with your feelings towards the relationships we build here. We are all real people; hurting, sharing, growing, healing, and helping. Yes, meeting someone in person would highlight the web-only limits of this forum. Feelings of sad are normal.

The very feelings of sadness you express show just how real these relationships are. In what is probably paradoxical, we show more of ourselves, more of who we really are, when anonymous. I don’t think there are many masks worn around here.

Virtual Nanaimo bars aside, you can ask me about heaters or anything else.

DnJ


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Originally Posted by DnJ

You nailed it.

Games.

H is using the legal system to his full advantage, like MLCers will. It’s a game of threats for them. Just another way to push your buttons. Leave him to your a##hole awesome lawyer.


I have been having a really harrowing time of it. But I guess I won the last round. Judge basically blackmailed me into giving H more money per month -- she said she would strike my request for relief from my motion if I didn't give him the money, and she would leave it if I did. I refused to do it unless it counted as ED because they were trying to say it was spousal support!!!!, and we left without a deal, but then when we were out on the court steps, they texted that they would agree to it being ED. So I finally got in writing that H is not allowed back in the house, I just had to pay him for it, but what I am paying is coming out of what his share of ED, so it's really just an advance on the buy out I am trying to make happen. And the rest of my motion I guess gets heard by the trial judge, and I won't be seeing that other horrible judge again.

So my new lawyer is making things happen for me. But I got a third bill from him today, and I have already incurred $11,000 of hours from him. That is not a typo. That is all my savings, gone.

We tried again to get them to take a universal buy-out and they refused. They refuse to acknowledge the marital debt, which is almost half the value of our house. They won't propose a number and they won't discuss the debt, so it will have to go to trial.

And I am starting to get really scared that I will end up having to go to trial just because H is too stupid to crunch the numbers. I did yet another spreadsheet that shows that he will make LESS if he sells the house at 20% above appraisal than accepting a buy out at appraised value because of the massive taxes.

I am having trouble accepting how much money he is forcing me to waste on lawyers. It is staggering how much money is going to lawyers instead of to my life and to my children, and all because H is delusional, not because I am fighting for more than my share or anything like that, just from sheer idiocy of MLC delusions.

So DnJ, what is your comforting thought about that for today?

Last edited by Gerda; 01/18/20 03:25 AM.

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Good Morning Gerda

I think a milestone has been reached; and the end of this round.

Good for you standing for what you believe in and want. The proposed extra payments were not going to be counted as ED and instead spousal support - and you said no and left. That’s awesome! Seriously, what are they going to do? The can’t bully you into anything.

And look what happened, minutes later on the court steps, H agreed to your terms. Yes, take this as a win. It’s finally in writing, H isn’t allowed back in the house.

I know you feel wore down by the prolonging and H’s escalating of the “business side” of this. Separation/divorce is messy and taxing. And I do think H is wearing down.

MLCers are irrational and driven by their emotions. They’re not well known for virtues of patience, and do not play the long game. They are after short term, immediate results and satisfactions. Like an addict, they need it. Your reasonable and rational approach, with included spreadsheet showing monies that could be gained/lost, doesn’t work with H. His desires are irrational, and do change.

They are many MLC spouses around here that are dragging out their divorces not due to finances or other negotiable assets. Their wants are emotional, the need to lash out, to have conflict. Look at H, he has caused more hemorrhaging of your joint finances, than he will win back. He is not being driven by money.

His last second agreement on the steps of the court house shows he is growing evermore less patience and wanting those results and dreams he thinks are just around the corner. He has always irrationally blamed you for the abject poverty he believes he lives in. Remember his fantasy is this being wealthy after he is free of you. Letting him run about, and do heavy lifting, while you patiently go about your business and life, is bearing fruit. You are outlasting him; an impressive display of internal fortitude, in my humble opinion.

Some advice I gave, it seems so long ago, was to know what you are willing to negotiate. Those hills you are willing to die for and the ones you can let go. Yes, H is still irrational and is unlikely to settle things outside of a courtroom - maybe. He may be more wore down than we figure. However, it doesn’t matter, you know what you want and are willing to fight for. $11,000 is well spent in my view. Your sanity is worth that and much more. Do not sell yourself short nor your deep held beliefs and desires. And those have nothing to do with thoughts of reconciliation - I’m speaking about you, your desires for you and your kids.

A trial may be the next step, and then a different judge. That could be a very good thing for you. That is something H and his L probably realize, as well as that they might just have to behave more reasonably. As I said, H seems to be fighting just to fight; eventually one’s knuckles get sore pounding against a boundary. A trial is different than mediation/negotiations. Courts are there to resolve issues not extend them; that isn’t going to play well for H. At any rate, keep your expectations low and follow your values.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I am starting to get really scared that I will end up having to go to trial just because H is too stupid to crunch the numbers. I did yet another spreadsheet that shows that he will make LESS if he sells the house at 20% above appraisal than accepting a buy out at appraised value because of the massive taxes.

Your fear of H being able to move back into the home has been alleviated.

Fear is funny stuff. The mind does feed off the irrational. Do not replace that fear with a new one.

Yes, H is not making his decisions using the numbers, other forces are driving him. Don’t underestimate him. Don’t assume he is too stupid or not aware of the potential losses. He very well could just be playing you; feeding that fear. Remember he does know you, and your buttons.

Originally Posted by DnJ
So DnJ, what is your comforting thought about that for today?

We all have 84 problems. Accept that. Choose your problems; do not have your problems choose you.


Once upon a time an affluent farmer approached Buddha with great hope. He prostrated before the sage and sought his blessings. Buddha raised his hand in benediction.

“O Venerable One!” the farmer said, “I have a major problem and I know only you can help me.”

Buddha kept quiet and the man went onto narrate that his good-for-nothing son was troubling him and that he was mad at his wife because she supported her son over him.

The man said, “Do something so their minds change and they realize how much I’m doing for them.”

“I can’t solve this problem for you,” Buddha replied and lowered his eyes again, in a meditative state.

The farmer told Buddha how he was worried about the upcoming harvest as the weather didn’t seem too favorable and the monkeys were destroying his crop.

“I can’t help you with this one either,” Buddha said calmly.

Still hoping in the powers of Buddha, he told him that many people owed him money and he was having hard time recovering it from his debtors. And that he too owed money to lenders and creditors. He asked Buddha if the sage could give him any remedy or amulet.

“Hmm…” Buddha said, “I can’t solve this problem for you.”

“What good are you then?” the man yelled. “Every one says you are the enlightened one and here you can’t solve any of my problems. Is there absolutely nothing you can do? I’m tired of my terrible life.”

“You see,” Buddha said patiently, as if he hadn’t heard the man’s tirade, “at any point in time, you’ll always have 84 problems in your life. The 84th is the key. If you solve the 84th problem, the first 83 will resolve themselves.”

“Please solve my 84th problem then,” the man said, going back to being humble. “How do I do it?” he added.

“First, we have to identify your 84th problem.”

“What is my 84th problem?”&#8232;Buddha smiled and peered deeply into the man’s eyes that were full of desire, doubt and anxiety.

“Your 84th problem is,” Buddha said and paused, “you want to get rid of the first 83 problems.”



We all have 84 problems. Realize the truth of the 84th problem. Much peace and contentment comes from this view. Much comfort.

Life is not problem free. It’s not supposed to be. We all will have problems, that is unavoidable.

Choose them well.

DnJ


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oh my gosh, this is the best post ever

will read it two hundred times and write back eventually

and if I ever meet you i will give you 84 naaaaiiimmaaaoooo bars

((((DnJ))))))

Last edited by Gerda; 01/18/20 06:54 PM.

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Gerda -

I'm glad to see that you no longer have the anxiety of worrying that H will become a squatter in your home any minute. That is huge, and I am relieved for you.

I don't suppose I can add anything more enlightening or useful than our friend DnJ has already expressed, but I agree that a corner is turned for you. Doesn't that feel good?

Look to the future.

((((Gerda))))

Grace


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Friends,you can't imagine the drama of the last week. The stip of H not being allowed back was on then off then on, he refused to sign unless he added some pork barrels, I held out, my L got furious with me, I thought of waffling, then H caved....

Anyway my latest battle is with thoughts.

I have been learning that if I think about H and all that happened and especially about the OW, I feel terrible. But if I don't, I really enjoy my life, feel good about myself, worries about the money stuff and if I will get to keep my house, etc., but overall, I have joy being alive and projects I want to do, hopes for my future (not romantic but other kinds), and lots more friends and some family. I have been learning that I can push the other thoughts out of my mind. No contact really is healing. I used to feel that not thinking about things was lying to myself because all my thoughts were truly happening in real life. But now I can sort of pretend they aren't happening or just not take them in because I don't have to see or hear anything as I did when he lived here.

But once a week on Wednesdays, and then every other weekend and sometimes in between after texts from H to D10, I get a little unwelcome pipeline. This is quite a lot of pipeline. I am happy in no contact but D10 is the contact. H does a lot to get at me through her. I don't even know if he is doing it on purpose but every time she comes back and I have to hear something, all my peace, joy, hope, happiness, gets toppled. I get it back, don't worry, but it takes me a while. It is so painful. I want to have less pain around those transitions of D back into my home.

Here are two excerpts from my visitation record to give you an idea of what I mean. The issue about the card is that H had a credit card sent here I assume so that he could daily harass me about it for two weeks. I have been asking him to have his mail forwarded since he left in June but then he just writes long diatribes about how this is his home until it's not his home, until he has his money and can create his home, etc. I kept ignoring the notes about the credit card except once in a while to write, "Card is not here," or to say he should have it sent to the bank. I finally had to have a friend write to him to explain that some months ago the postman asked me about my forwarding his mail and I said he didn't live here anymore, so his mail was probably getting sent back. And that I could not be responsible for his personal affairs and that I did not want to have any contact with him. No answer to my friend but he still had D10 come in to look for the card! And mind you, all that is happening while he keeps dragging me back into court to decimate me, refuse my settlement offers, etc. And my motion, if he read it, was quite devastating as far as laying out his abuse and his addiction issues and total abdication of responsibility for the kids, S14's suicidal thoughts, refusal to see him, etc. But he just kept sending me these pseudo-detached texts about his credit card in between!

OK, here are the visitation records.

D10 said -- “Papa said I have a problem. He told me I have a problem and I am going to be a fat person.” She started to cry. I comforted her and told her I knew how much she loved sweets and I did too, and that as she got older, she would have more will power. She came back a minute later for another hug, and while she was hugging me, she wanted to tell me more. She said that he told her that he “wanted all the boys to chase you, and you have to be thin for boys to chase you.”

D10 came home from seeing H. She said she was very annoyed with Papa because he was talking to the other person for over an hour. She said she kept saying, “Papa! Papa!” to get him to get off but he wouldn’t get off the phone. She said, “I only see him for a few hours a week and he spent an hour on the phone with her!” She also told me that “they figured out why Papa’s card hadn’t come.” She told me, Papa said, “I’m so f-ing (she said the word) mad at Mama. She told the postman that I didn’t live there anymore! I’m so f-ing p-sed at her!” I said, “Gosh, that doesn’t seem very nice for you to have to listen to that. Maybe you can tell him not to talk about me to you.” She said, “It’s okay, I am used to him talking like that about you.”




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Gerda my girl. Set out two cups; we’re going to have a visit.

(It’s evening so we’ll use glasses, filled with ice, right to the rim; Coke poured in slowly the foamy bubbles rise through the clear cubes.)

I like your post! I smiled through out it. So much sword and shield.

First off, I’m glad H caved. My goodness I think your L’s head would have exploded if that deal fell through. smile

Thoughts and feelings. That was said so well.

Originally Posted by Gerda
No contact really is healing.

Yay!

Originally Posted by Gerda
... I think about H and all that happened and especially about the OW, I feel terrible...if I don't, I really enjoy my life, feel good about myself... I have joy being alive and projects I want to do, hopes for my future... and lots more friends and some family.

That is great!

Thoughts and feelings. Each influencing the other. However, one can directly control thoughts, which will directly influence feelings.

Mental assertiveness my good friend. Well done! I remember you lamenting, what seems like a long time ago, how difficult it was to have DnJ assertiveness. Ha! Look at you now.

(Helps myself to a Nanaimo bar, or two)

I am proud of you. What a brilliant demonstration of the power of focusing on you.

The Wednesday and every second weekend pipeline.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I get a little unwelcome pipeline.

Originally Posted by Gerda
It is so painful. I want to have less pain around those transitions of D back into my home.

A few suggestion for you (as I have another snack).

Reframe this in your mind. Thoughts and feelings.

A little unwelcome pipeline. No! Think different.

A welcomed pipeline. D10 is sharing her experiences with you. Her mom. The person she trusts and is her safe place to let her guard down and be vulnerable. By thankful for that, for you are blessed!

Welcome those discussions. For you can lead and shine your role model self for her to follow.

With that, there is little to no pain.

You can alter and modify your feelings and beliefs - it all starts with thoughts.

Is H doing this on purpose? Who knows. Is D10 doing this on purpose? No way. She is just being honest and sincere in what she see and hears. Oh, the honest innocent truth of a child.

(Getting dry. Lots of talking. Refills glass.)

(And another tasty treat)

H telling D10 that she’s fat, and boys won’t chase her. Etc... Give her a big hug. Then explain how one can not control what others say and do. Dad is going to do what he is going to do. You can explain your beliefs and views, and encourage her to share her’s and “see” which make the most sense.

You can share mine if you like: Body shaming is bullying - plain and simple. You can’t stop someone from saying whatever they want, regardless how foolish and immature it is. However, you don’t need to listen to it. You have your own heart and mind, use them and think and feel for yourself.

(Hmmm. I feel like another delicious bar is needed. Wow, that pile of 84 is whittling down)

And D10 does have her own mind and sees very well. I love what she said about Dad talking to “her” for an hour on the phone. She knows he could and should be spending it with her. She also know why he doesn’t - I suspect. She is pretty bright.

I did laugh at you telling about D10 repeating the swearing. I still remember the first time my daughter swore in front of me. Hahaha. It’s such a funny story. Don’t sweat the small stuff. At ten she’s heard more than your realize.

And that honest innocent truth - “ It’s okay, I am used to him talking like that about you.”

Gerda that probably hurts. Reframe that for yourself. That is pure gold!!!

D10 is accepting her life very very well. “It’s okay.” What a great thing to hear.

She is a bright kid. She sees what is and has been going on. She knows.

Dad is talking bad about you. You do not demonize him. Who do think she is going to reach out to? Listen to? Look to for advice and guidance? Model her life after?

No one can control another person. D10 seems to get that. She’s adjusted pretty well it sounds like. And of course there are going to be ups and downs.

As much as it hurts to know and hear that you are being dragged through the mud - consider who is doing the dragging. Pay him no attention regarding that. Sound like D10 isn’t either.

DnJ

(Btw you’re out of Cokes and Nanaimo bars)

smile


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I can't believe I never answered this, DnJ. Must have been that sugar overload. I read your note a bunch of times of course. How rude that I didn't talk to you about it. I am going to reply to it properly but first --

So much has happened. It seems that everyday H sinks deeper into the pit of disgusto. I get too tired to even send a report.

I stupidly thought I could finagle a settlement somehow. I had made an offer based on a sale price THIRTY PERCENT above appraisal, but with what he would actually walk away with from a sale -- e.g., less debt and all the many taxes and closing costs, broker's fee, etc. But based on a sale price that is much higher than he would ever get. They said no.

Today they finally offered a buy-out number. They based it on a sale price that was 44% higher than the appraised value and of course with not a single closing cost considered. I discovered that the appraisal added 700 square feet to our house (have not been able to get the appraiser to respond to requests for a redo or for anyone at court to care) so it was already inflated. But even at the insanely inflated sale price they claim they could get, they then said that we'd have to compensate them for not having the chance to go for alimony and an assessment of our rental business at trial, so out of that insanely inflated price they used, they "agreed" to take 75% of the equity from it.

Mind you, there is no way he can get alimony based on the facts and my income. And our rental biz has never shown a profit in ten years (it just pays the mortgage), is not totally above board (e.g., no one could buy it and no one would buy it, they'd just convert house to single family) and of course, if we sold our place, there would be no rental income anymore!

My lawyer had just sent them a note asking H to stop vaping in front of D10 (she came home last night sobbing hysterically over a bunch of things that happened at visitation and as I hugged her I noticed that her hair REEKED of e-cigarettes). So in response to that insane offer, my L replied, "I wonder what was in that vape your client smoked; did he share some with you?" Which at least gave me a good laugh.

I get that H is an MLCer and totally delusional, fine. But why oh why is his L encouraging this kind of insanity? I know for a fact that H has not paid him since my letter to the wife of the guy who was funding his L. Now his L is banking on the sale of the house to get paid, though I also learned that D lawyers are not allowed to put a lien on marital property so I am not sure how he thinks he will get paid. But why would his L encourage this kind of nonsense? If he crunches the numbers, it's quite obvious that a buy out by me will get them more money, faster, than an actual sale. H is delusional, but I assume his L is sane, even if he is evil. So what would be the point, beyond more billable hours?

Now I have to figure out what to do, what gamble to take as far as trial or the current terrible agreement, letting my motion be heard, or working out the current agreement even though it's not very good. But what I learned from this number is that H is totally delusional about the money he will make on a sale, and that there is literally no point in trying to negotiate with him.

Thoughts from my practical friends here are welcome!

Last edited by Gerda; 01/31/20 03:05 AM.

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I would definitely stay on the appraiser about the extra 700 square feet. You should be able to google your place and find out the exact square footage and present that to your lawyer and let him do the dirty work of getting that appraiser on the phone and back out there to remeasure. Sometimes, our wayward spouses will hire someone that the know and have them inflate the price, etc. Better to get this straightened out now.

As for his lawyer, his lawyer knows that your h is out to lunch and he's going to continue working for him because it's a lot of billable hours for him. Of course, he's going to listen and do whatever your h wants because it's more money in his pocket. Some lawyers have no shame in taking advantage of people. He may have worked a deal w/your h that he will get paid once everything is settled. No one knows what kind of deal they struck.

You need to be asking your lawyer who is the best option for you. Listen to what he has to say and them mull it over.


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Good morning Gerda -

I am sorry your H is so out to lunch that this property situation seems to never end.

(((Gerda)))

Somewhere along your story I forgot how many appraisals you have had and who found the appraisers. I agree with Job that tax documents should accurately show the square footage. Can the court get involved in designatiing perhaps 3 appraisers, and you take the average of the 3 as the agreed to value? Of course this would require a miraculously aggreeable H, but just a thought.

As for H's attorney, well, more of them than not will rack up as many billable hours as they can. Even if he doesn't recoup the entire amount, it's still substantial for him, I'm sure. At some point I would imagine he will stop working unless he gets paid.

Anyway, if you trust your new attorney to do what's best for you, listen to his advice. Try to take your emotions out of the business side of this (I know, much easier said then done!), and give some thought to your true bottom line to get on with life. Having you and your kids free from this chaos will be money well spent.

(((Gerda)))

Grace


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It makes no sense at all to come to an agreement that so overvalued the house. Why wouldn’t you simply sell and take your share to invest in a new property? As it is now it’s like you’re buying a property at 40% over it’s value.

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Good Morning Gerda

A real appraisal is important if this goes to a trail. It’s importance in negations - depends.

My house, our house back then, needed a value for the separation agreement. We could pay someone to appraise its value, get a few done, etc... etc... W, at the time, was in a rush, and wanted to sign over the house anyhow. So we agreed to a value. This amount is far less than an appraised value, but it mattered little. It just had to be documented what she was signing away.

The idea of finding a fair agreement is difficult, and yet straight forward enough. The courts and lawyers do not ensure a fair split. They uphold the wishes of the two applicants, you and H. If you two can find what you both believe to be a fair agreement and will sign it, then it is fair.

When that doesn’t happen, or cannot happen, the courts and lawyers apply the rule of law to the situation. The law then decides and enforces a “fair” agreement.

Originally Posted by Gerda
what I learned from this number is that H is totally delusional about the money he will make on a sale, and that there is literally no point in trying to negotiate with him.

You made an offer, and he counter offered. If he really wanted a trial why counter offer? He is just haggling over money right now. Imagine if you took his offer, is this all over? Would you get the house, business, etc.. and he gets his bag of money?

Originally Posted by Gerda
what to do, what gamble to take as far as trial or the current terrible agreement, letting my motion be heard, or working out the current agreement even though it's not very good.

Do both.

Continue to negotiate and prepare for a trial.

H is talking, so he is negotiable - crazy but is negotiating.

You offered 30% over the appraised value which is already inflated by the 700 extra square feet. So I am guessing if he had accepted that you would be ok with it. In other words the higher appraised value, for the moment, is not a troublesome point for you.

His return offer of 44% higher, is only 14% more - I suspect you would have taken that. It’s the 75% of the equity... which I honestly don’t understand what he is getting at there. I figure it’s not a good thing. If you want to enlighten me, I would appreciate it, but don’t feel you need to.

So what to do. Send another offer. Remove all those fees. Firstly you’re not planning to sell, so those expenses won’t be incurred. Secondly, they muddy it up for H. He is having trouble with one number. (Remember all those spreadsheet he just didn’t understand?) Keep it simple, and present it in a way that lets him think it is his idea.

And while doing this, keep pushing for a proper appraisal. Now, it does sound like the business is not appraised, so consider your strategy carefully.

Again, I’m not sure what the 75% thing is actually referring too, but you sound like you don’t want it. You could validate his 44% higher value and apply you percentage to that and offer him basically 14% more. The key is to figure out what the other party really wants. My XW just wanted out, pretty easy. Your H seems to just want money, not the actual house or business.

Maybe something along the lines of - I can agree to your stated value of the properties. With that, my initial offer would increase to $xxx. I would forego reassessment of the properties contingent upon acceptance of this agreement.

And of course you need all legalese wording and statements regarding all rights to alimony is waive and the lump sum payment is including H’s income upfront.

An interesting exercise is to reverse things. Imagine taking his deal, but you take his part and he takes your’s. You get all that money and 75%... and he gets the house. Would you take that? Is the deal really far off the mark? If you immediately jump upon such an theoretical solution, his offer is probably way out to lunch. My XW’s offer. No way I would take her side of it.

Such a mental exercise quickly highlights the fairness of things, and unfairness of things. In my case it was overwhelmingly in my favour, something I did feel guilty for and had to find forgiveness too. But that’s another story.

I believe negotiating yields the best results. Everyone has different desires and wants. Perhaps you can leverage that, offering some of your lesser priority items and find a middle ground.

Just food for thought.

Listen to your lawyer, he does sound rather good. I like him, from what you’ve said.

Hoping Saturday finds you well.

DnJ


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Thanks, Grace, Job, Kml and DnJ, for all the viewpoints!

As usual having to leave details out is confusing this for you all and limiting your ability to advise.

If you know where I live, you can understand that taxes and fees are the size of the GDP of a small country and that the average local price per square foot times 700 is the same.

I didn't give H the details of how I calculated the amount. I just gave him the amount, but I hoped he had worked with someone to calculate what he would get if we actually sold everything so that he could see how much higher my offer was than what he would make selling it at an inflated price. I figured out what he would get if we sold the place at 30% above appraisal -- since I couldn't match that price, we would actually have to sell, and he would earn less than if he sold his share to me at appraisal minus debts with no taxes/fees. And, yes, DnJ, 14 percent more than my pie-in-the-sky 30% more is again the GDP of a small country. We do not live on the outskirts of a small rural town in Canada! The amount he wanted was 75% of the appraised value of the house. Our mortgage and other debts are literally half the appraised value of the house, so via a sale, he would get 25% of the appraised value, less all taxes, brokers fee, etc. And again, we are talking huge numbers here. I make very little salary and the sale would end the rental income, so I would never get approved for any mortgage after this. Without our rentals, I will have to work full-time and no more flexible schedule for my kids -- which means most likely my son will stop going to school entirely.

If I lose, I will of course make a new life and we will find happiness. But keeping my life as is is what is best for my kids, that is why I am trying to do this. And I finally qualifed for the refinance application, so I started that. I think H doesn't believe I will ever get the refi so it might help if I am ready to write him a check!

In the end, I asked my L about the risk of my motion failing. He said we would revert to the bad stip. If I win, all issues are back on table at trial. If I lose on some or all of my motion,probably at least child support would have to be heard at trial because that part was not in compliance with the law. I already have the bad stip and I did gain via my motion that he can't return to the house and that all the money I pay him each month is coming out of his ED. So I really have nothing to lose by waiting to see what the judge says. Even if I lose the motion entirely, then the trial will only be about his getting alimony and me covering his legal fees. He could not get either of those things, it is an MLC pipe dream. So the only thing I have to fear, I realized, is fear itself.

So I told my lawyer to sit tight, prepare our response to H's contempt of court motion (that is a whole other long and amazing story of how we are proving I am not in contempt but I had better not take the time nor say the details) and be ready to defend my motion. Then if I lose both, I just have to keep remembering not to have any pride about it but just to keep my eye on my goals and do what I can to reach them through this thick forest of MLC insanity and delusions. I mean, the MLCer can't even do MATH! The least subjective subject there is!!!!

DnJ, as usual your glass is most most full half full glass I ever encountered. Or mug of coffee with heavy cream. It's a good point that there was some negotiation but my dad pointed out that the number was so insane that it was obvious H wanted to NOT end this but just keep it going forever. I will I could tell you the numbers so you would understand but I had better not. But I will try to see it as an opening and not as a closing door.

Last edited by Gerda; 02/01/20 08:00 PM.

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Originally Posted by Gerda
So the only thing I have to fear, I realized, is fear itself.

smile

Originally Posted by Gerda
I mean, the MLCer can't even do MATH! The least subjective subject there is!!!!

I love math. Always have.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I wish I could tell you the numbers so you would understand but I had better not.

Lol. I have a pretty good idea. $xxxxxxx.xx

Originally Posted by Gerda
DnJ, as usual your glass is most most full half full glass I ever encountered.

You know, for a while I thought there was something wrong with me. Too optimistic. Too hopeful. Me seeing the possibilities and focusing on the positives.

I even tried to dial it down, to be more pessimistic. Tried to fit in. That just didn’t work. It doesn’t feel right.

So I embraced it. Come here future - you and I got stuff to do.

84 problems I suppose.

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Gerda, I'm wondering if you have ever heard of Pema Chodron, an American Buddhist. She wrote a book that I read when OD first left that helped me very much. I came across a quote from it today and wanted to mention it to you. The book is called "When Things Fall Apart."

"The way to dissolve our resistance to life is to meet it face to face. When we feel resentment because the room is too hot, we could meet the heat and feel its fieriness and its heaviness. When we feel resentment because the room is too cold, we could meet the cold and feel its iciness and its bite. When we want to complain about the rain, we could feel its wetness instead. When we worry because the wind is shaking our windows, we could meet the wind and hear its sound. There is no cure for hot and cold. They go on forever. After we have died, the ebb and flow will still continue...Being able to appreciate, being able to look closely, being able to open our minds - this is the core of loving kindness."

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Hi, Own -- Thank you for the beautiful quote and for thinking of me.

I am sure I go to meet heat and cold and rain and wind. Lately I have noticed how much I enjoy my life and I have noticed that everything seems like an adventure, even hard things, in all other areas. But not D. Not the endless battle and the endless waste of money for nothing except to let H spin his delusions out in court. I think I am a little tired of having no time (and sometimes no energy) left after spending so much time spinning my wheels in H's MLC divorce mud. And I don't think even Chodron would be able to just appreciate and look closely at endless opposition papers and motions from an endlessly deranged mind, the endless screaming.

I think you can appreciate my longing to leap off this gerbil wheel, I think you have the same longing from your wheel with your H's refusal to finalize your D. I mean, surely you aren't telling yourself to meet his endless refusals and feel it, but maybe you are when you say that you are grabbing the popcorn.

The thing is that in Christianity there is a value judgement against evil. It isn't just an ebb and flow. It's an out and out armored battle. I don't want to appreciate any aspect of the divorce process or to observe it without judgement. It is evil and to me that is a fact. I don't want to allow it to become a subjective truth in my mind even if that is a form of peace. I just want to pray that God gives me that peace beyond understanding, if I lean on God, trust God, despite the evil around me.

But I do love the quote and love that you posted it for me. THANK YOU!


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Good Morning Gerda

Full throttle heaven - I like that. It is possibly more fitting than you realize. I’m considering expanding on that idea. However, this morning your post stirred a response within me.

Originally Posted by Gerda
The thing is that in Christianity there is a value judgement against evil. It isn't just an ebb and flow. It's an out and out armored battle. I don't want to appreciate any aspect of the divorce process or to observe it without judgement. It is evil and to me that is a fact. I don't want to allow it to become a subjective truth in my mind even if that is a form of peace. I just want to pray that God gives me that peace beyond understanding, if I lean on God, trust God, despite the evil around me.

What if that kind of subjective truth is the peace God wants for you? Is offering for you?

The business of divorce - yes fight for what you need and want to. There is much life ahead of you and your children. Financial security and protection is needed.

The other side of this - The accepting of H’s truth; The accepting, and altering, of your truth - Isn’t part of the business deal gone sideways.

In the out and out armoured battle, the armour is the light of God. Faith, compassion, forgiveness. Fighting begets fighting.

We aren’t here to judge others. God does that. We forgive our trespassers. That’s not becoming a doormat. You can still have boundaries, stand tall and strong, and hold your head up high.

The true victory in the fight against evil is forgiving it. Losing our fear, understanding our adversary, finding compassion for them, all leads to that forgiveness.

Do you remember my car getting hit on the highway? I was found 50% at fault. My friends at work are still upset about that, “how dare that guy get away with that”. Lol. I did lose the fight, and won the war. I forgave him long ago. He doesn’t have any mental or emotional real estate within me. XW is the same kind of thing - just a much much bigger story to be told.

H is not evil. He is deeply troubled and lost. What you’re fighting (outside of the business deal) is you.

What do imagine I would do if I met your H? How would I react to his screaming and yelling? His projecting upon the world?

Am I cloaked in my armour of light stating “I’m sorry you feel that way” ? Or am I more in his face?

I do empathize with your feelings regarding divorce and it’s process. It’s about control. What can you control? You cannot stop this. You can steer this process a bit, and ensure you get the best deal for you and your kids.

What can you control? You!

The inner you. That’s where your victory awaits.

What do you imagine yourself doing if you met my XW?

Are you happy with that? Proud of that imagined response from you? If not, change it.

Imagination is the first step in creation.

You want peace, despite the evil around you.

I want that for you as well.

And you know where I am.

Perhaps you and I are both walking a similar path.

Imagine that. smile

DnJ


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I couldn't answer this yet, DnJ, partly because I don't have a single minute between working and endless endless court and lawyer battles, but partly because I am just so tired. I agree with most of what you said. And if saw your XW I would say something for sure to her -- not to tell her what to do. I would talk about what a great man you are in every single way and how I couldn't understand anyone leaving a man like that or not wanting him to love and take care of her until the day she dies. I would tell her I am praying that she wakes up before you move on and I would tell her that you are so incredible that I think you would forgive her enough to open your heart to her again. Not because it would do more than maybe plant a tiny seed but because I want to speak truth. I am sure MLC has always existed, but I think our modern culture with all it's respect for subjective truth makes us all respect politeness more than truth, and that the mechanization of divorce allows a completely crazy person to not only leave his/her family but strip them of everything for years and cost them tens of thousands in legal fees just to keep from being entirely destroyed.

Which yes, is about me via your story. But here is a good place to suck eggs if you do anything but give me a hug right now. It has been raining for days and my H becomes more monstrous with every passing one. And lest you think it's something I am doing -- he says no to everything. I am starting to realize he wants to destroy me more than he wants money, something I never imagined.

Last edited by Gerda; 02/13/20 06:54 PM.

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((((Gerda)))))

I like what you would say to XW. I’m pretty sure she would not like it one bit. Lol. smile

I do agree we have sacrificed truth for political correctness, and I figured we would have a further discussion on subjective truth.

What about objective truth. It of course exists, the dispassionate logical reasoned approach clearly devoid of any personal feelings or opinions. The scientific or mathematical proof would be a pretty good example.

But people don’t add up like numbers. They are subjective. Even with objective reality facing them - the flat earth believers come to mind.

All I am illustrating is H has a different view, a different truth, than you. I’m not suggesting you need to believe him; very much not; just accept that he sees it differently. Believes it differently.

Can you hold more than one view point in your mind? Can you see H’s point of view and still believe and have faith?

The interesting thing is that they’re not mutually exclusive. Understanding someone else, an adversary, an enemy, an evil; that understanding allows us to grow in faith and strength. The best way to strip evil of its power and hold, is to understand it.

And as unbelievable as this may sound, once you understand, really understand, you’ll have compassion and empathy, and see it’s not a matter of right or wrong, true or false. You find peace.

All that probably sounds rather far from your reach at the moment. Your H is broken and clearly a lost soul. He has said no for so long now; it hard to figure out what it is he wants. Destroying you does seem to be more important to him than money. I’m trying to think how that could be leverage in this situation. I’ve got some vague ideas, but it’s late, if anything actually coalesces I’ll pass it on.

H is an angry one, keep it business, and at arm’s length.

Here one more hug. (((Gerda)))

It sounds like you could use it.

DnJ


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To: A special gal

Happy Valentines Day

From: Guess who


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I really liked your Valentine, DnJ. I wrote a long reply but then I wanted to edit it and never even posted it. Must be on my computer somewhere.

I am writing to my DB friends to request a hug. I had such a horrifying day in court. We may be near a settlement and it's basically what I offered all along except I have to allow him to market the house in order to buy time and in order to get him down to reality about what he can actually get for it. I am hoping that by the time he is done with the marketing effort, I will have a refi in place. Like I said from the beginning of this nightmare, we can save all the money on lawyers and just skip to the end but he refused. So I spent the last year and a half getting beaten up and wasting money on lawyers. Lord did I make a lot of mistakes in my legal journey. I think we need a sticky for that, though again as I always say, you can't listen to anything here until you are ready to listen and that is usually after you already got burned.

I have a very terrible judge and I never filed motions or anything to bring my kids' story and my story into play, I just kept desperately trying to settle -- that is, after the year it took me to accept H wasn't going to drop the D and return. (Yeah, I know, I know.) But today H's L was up to his usual domination of everything and my L was silent so I started to fidget and then kept whispering to my L to say something. It was PTSD of the day I signed the bad agreement because my last L was silent that day too. The judge started yelling at me not to talk to my lawyer, and then later my lawyer told me that my fidgeting p!ssed her off and that my H was able to be more stoic. He said, "Judges like people who say yes." I couldn't believe it. I said, "You are there to advocate for me, and I was advocating for my children. I can't say yes just because the judge wants me to." This L is new to my case and didn't see the many days before this when I was still ad silent and my H stormed out of the court with his dyed-blond hair plugs flowing in the breeze or the many times he piped up -- and even today at one point he said, "Can I say something?" and started up before his L shouted, "NO!"

I really struggled today with the way that no one in that court room knows the truth, and that the actual narrative of what happened here or what is going on with my kids has never come into play because I got custody in the beginning. This man isn't even being required to pay child support until the house is closed on, the judge isn't even pushing for a child support agreement that follows the law!!!! His L has been so aggressive with their false narrative that the judge seems to actually believe it at this point and does literally nothing to try to make things fair for me and the kids, I think because she thinks I am secretly hiding money.

At one point I sort of blanked out, when we were waiting between times, and found myself standing next to H saying, "Why? Why? Why are you doing this?" I kind of woke up in that moment and he was looking at me with such violent hatred. I don't even remember what he said but it was something like, "You don't even know yourself, just get away from me, you don't know what you are talking about."

I made it out alive and we may be close to an agreement but I had to get battered on every side. My new L knows the law better but he couldn't really dig me out of what I signed, and he is a very cold person, so I certainly don't feel like he is protecting me much, or helping me be effective. But I guess it's almost over.

Today my Christian values drowned in a sea of anger and a longing for revenge. I am sure I will get past it but just for today, I am so mad that no one knows the truth about H.

I am collecting virtual hugs today. So be generous with those parentheses.

What I do when I feel like this is I go to my church and I literally lie on the altar in the dark and cry my head off. So here I go.



Last edited by job; 02/20/20 03:14 PM. Reason: edited language

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Gerda, sorry that this is continuing to be such a struggle. It will come to an end and then you can focus on all the good stuff. Maybe you needed to see this side of him to really be able to let go.

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((((Gerda))))


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((((((Gerda))))))

Be gentle on yourself. Especially for mistakes.

I’ve learnt so much from my mistakes, I think I’ll make a few more.

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(((((Gerda)))))


You will be in my prayers tonight especially. Have your cry, and find comfort in the Lord. He knows your real story, and will see you through each chapter.

Grace


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Update -- D10 saw H today for visitation. (For once her hair didn't smell like vape!) The usual tidbits came out but today included a real doozy. A couple days ago S14 told me that his dad had sent him "another one of those weird texts," but then wouldn't say more, so I didn't push.

Today upon return D10 said that Papa had sent S14 a long text all about loving him but that S14 had only written back, "Papa, there is no love anymore."

Wow.

She told me that Papa was sad about this but that he said that one day he would tell them the truth about why he did what he did. Not sure what that means -- I guess because I am evil and hiding the money. Feel so bad that he is always talking to a 10-year old about all the drama and problems. Poor D10 has too much on her little shoulders.

I was both proud of S14 for speaking his mind and having clarity and, I admit, felt a little vindicated. I don't trash talk H though I am honest about him if asked, and the kids can see when I am struggling with the situation or when they know I have gone to court. But I felt a little vindicated that S14 sees everything clearly enough to know that love is about actions not about words.

Mostly though I feel that S14 is keeping himself safe by choosing to not see his father. D10 is not safe emotionally when she is with H and sometimes I am not even sure she's safe physically. The other day she told me she was learning about abuse in school, and I said I was glad she was learning because I didn't know and I had allowed some abuse in past relationships. I told her about some of the kinds of abuse and abuse was anything that makes you feel deeply unworthy or scared, it didn't have to be physical but could be mental, emotional, financial, etc. She told me that she thought she had experienced that with her dad the other day when he kept telling her her shape was looking better, more defined. I think I wrote before about when he told her that he wanted her to be skinny because boys only chase skinny girls and he wanted all the boys to chase her. But this one sounded more complimentary, so I was proud of her for recognizing that it was abusive on some level. But overall I think she is very vulnerable to him and comes back very anxious and unsure of herself. For example, he keeps vaping around her and so I have been trying to teach her to leave the room when he does, but now she gets scared to tell me about it. She said, "You're not going to tell the judge, are you?" and, "Don't tell please or Papa will never trust me again."

Anyway, I am obsessing tonight over everything. Raw heart from a raw day. Thanks, Scout, DnJ and Grace, for the very nice words and hugs and support. DnJ, you even made me laugh. Yes, if I could see it like that! That's a good goal. I have told your credit card identity story few times, it's such a good one. (Esp relevant since all my credit cards and wallet got stolen when I met Grace for drink!)

Last edited by Gerda; 02/20/20 04:48 AM.

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More hugs for you, Gerda, from a newbie. (((Gerda)))


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Good Morning Gerda

I’m glad you liked the credit card story. smile

And on how one could differently view mistakes.

It sounds like S14 is finding his way. The relationship between Dad and son is unfolding or devolving or growing up - point of view - ensure you remain out of it. Your job is not to facilitate the relationship, your job is to not destroy it.

What D10 reported from H about what son said. Whew, third hand. Anyhow, “Papa, there’s no love anymore.” Son is finding indifference and being detached. Good thing by the way, you don’t want son being dragged around by this. Compassionate indifference is what you want son to find. I believe you are living that, so he will pick up on things, and there will be opportunities to further that view, discussions, birthdays, gifts, Father’s Day, etc.. The lofty goal behind all that, kids forgiving their Dad.

D10 is younger and still responding to Dad so she is getting more of his attention. She is not where son is. She cannot risk loosing her Dad. She will lash out at you at times because she just can’t speak back to her father - yet.

Did you, or do you, see that in son? Has his attitude changed a little? With him speaking up for himself to Dad, he may just not misbehave as much with you.

You are the safe parent. Kids need to vent and express bottled up emotions, and they cannot do that to the parent that deserves it, so the sane one usually gets double. Another good thing by the way.

Eventually, it smooths out. Kids grow passed this and realize and accept it, leaving their emotionally stunted parent behind to continue the struggle to grow up themselves. It’s a whole lot better if kids (and us) do that compassionately.

Do not tell H about anything D10 has confided in you. She begged you. She needs somewhere safe to tell her feelings. It’s wonderful that is you.

You are doing very well gently steering her on who and what she can control. Vaping for example, yes leave the room. She will extrapolate that idea and premise to other aspects. Another good lesson to learn at such a young age.

Gerda, I see things have changed for you - well within you. We change our views and the world changes with us.

Your advice is good and solid, with much wisdom and experience.

Have a great day.

DnJ


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I’m late with a (((Gerda))).

Just goes to show how weird H is when he actually wants boys to chase his D.

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Gerda,

I am very sorry to read what has transpired in your situation. However, after all of this time, maybe, just maybe, there is light at the end of the tunnel and a settlement will be put into place.

It puzzles me that your new lawyer wasn't speaking up for you, but it could be that in the courtroom, the judge only views the particulars of a separation/divorce/settlement and they really do not focus on the welfare of the children. The welfare of the children may be held in another session where all of the concerns of both parents are viewed and a decision made. Judges and lawyers focus on what needs to be done when a family splits up and that is the divorce and settlement. It's a very sad way to look at things, but I now in my area, that is how things are looked at.

Hopefully, today will be a better day for you. Try to carve out a bit of "me" time and relax just a bit.


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Westo, Cardinal, Job, Grace -- thank you so much for the love and the shower of hugs. I really really needed it and it really lightened my load!

DnJ, you are, as ever, full of vantage-point-clarity. I agree that S14 is finding his way. He still rages but far less, and I am glad he knows very clearly what he thinks and what he is going to do about it.

I do want them to forgive but I do not want them to forgive now. I do not do anything to hurt their relationship with H but I spent 7 years protecting H and I can see now that that may have made things worse for my kids, so now I tell the truth when they ask and I also volunteer it at times. If H had come out of it, it would have been a great thing, so I think it was good and understandable that I did that; but since he did not come out of it, and over half their lives have been spent with him very deep in MLC and mental illness, I think not knowing some of the truth confused and hurt them and made them unprepared to deal with the unfolding of the D. It is unfolding in ways I could never ever have imagined -- I never ever would have ever thought H capable of such cruelty and vicious avarice or so incapable of seeing the kids as human beings with feelings and hopes that can be crushed or beings who need care -- even just food and clothes! Had I ever thought that what is happening now would happen, I would have done things very differently. I am glad my kids saw how firmly I believed in marriage and how steadfast I was in waiting for restoration. So I hope that any mistakes I made are outweighed by what they will understand, from watching me, about marriage vows.

I believe that H is dangerous for them and they are only safe at this age if they don't forgive. I know that sounds shocking coming from Gerda. But I grew up with a mother like H and I know that it is very dangerous to be around someone like that until you are mature enough to understand what is happening and how to protect yourself. I didn't come to that until very late in life, and then my mother died before I was able to enact that forgiveness. At their age and their level of spiritual and general maturity, I fear for them.

And I don't agree about the vaping. Second hand smoke from vaping is really dangerous for D10's health, and normalizing vaping is a terrible precedent. She is too scared to upset him and we live in a big city so it's not like she can just announce she is going outside. He has the juul with him all the time and puffs at it all day. I am sure you would not advise me to equip her to deal with it when he does heroin. I know it doesn't come close to heroin, but I just mean that I think that at her age, she needs my protection. But I did, last time I brought it to lawyer, tell them that she wouldn't tell me but I could smell it in her hair. I don't talk to H ever, at all, except in my courtroom day-mare. I do keep records of all this stuff in case he ever tries to get more custody.

I listened to a sermon yesterday by Tim Keller on the furnace in the book of Daniel. He talks about how suffering is a certainty and how it will destroy you if you not only suffer but suffer over thinking that something must be wrong if you are suffering. That you can only be refined by the fire if you trust that God will use your suffering and don't become despairing and angry with him because he has not taken it away. So I have been sitting with that idea the past few days. When the waves of despair hit me, I try to remember that I have to give myself to God and let him refine me, and that I don't have to pretend I am not suffering or make light of it or try to just "let it go." Rather I can sit in it with confidence that God will use it to refine me.

I am not suffering anymore over H's change and rejection of me and our family. I am suffering from the torture he is inflicting on me and the kids via the way he is conducting the D and the way he is trying to control his destruction of our home and our life. I am suffering in trying to get to the end of the D so that he can't torture me anymore, so that I can be free.

So, yes, in a way it must sound like I really really changed. But I think I am still exactly the same Gerda. I just stopped believing that H would ever be good again and I finally realized that focusing on your kids, as everyone here advises, means fighting the MLCer's attempts to destroy/pillage with everything you can, while somehow still holding true to all that is good and beautiful and not losing yourself and your goodness as you fight -- and never making the fight an idol but only a means to an end, and the end is getting out of this horror with whatever you can salvage of house and home. I am still the same Gerda, I just remembered my own dreams and hopes for my own life my children's lives, at least as far as I can help them with theirs -- and I gave that man who was once my H to God.

You may wonder why this is so long. Well, it might be my last post for a long while. Lent starts on Wednesday and I will be giving up the boards til Easter. If any of my friends here have plans to be where I live during that time, you can ask Grace about how to reach me. I send you all a lot of love and will post a last message before Wednesday. DnJ, I will be carrying the mini DnJ in my pocket or on the mantle so you can help me a bit during Lent but I will try not to consult your mantle-sized self too often, and just rely on God..... But I will keep my eye for sun-dogs! And here are some songs for you -- Judah & the Lion, "Our Love" (Brite Session) and Laura Mvula - Green Garden and Band of Horses - The Funeral and maybe if you want to try something outside your zone, Red Bottom Sky by Yung Lean, i think it's so beautiful.

Last edited by Gerda; 02/22/20 06:23 AM.

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Gerda I pray you have a beautiful Lent. A group I’m leading is reading a book over Lent on total forgiveness that is a 40 day book.


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Good Morning Gerda

I do hope your lent is fulfilling. You are on a good path.

I think I understand what you mean about not wanting your kids to forgive, yet. It stems from how accepting of things, young children are. They mush together acceptance and forgiveness; too immature to realize and separate the two.

I suspect S14 is grown pass that stage, now beginning to discern forgiveness, acceptance, and the tie between them. D10 is probably not there yet, but not for long, she’s a smart gal, and usually girls mature emotionally sooner than boys.

I empathize with the battle you face getting through the business of this situation. Such cruelty and viciousness from a spouse just adds to the tangled mess. Stay strong, progress is being made.

I do agree with you about vaping and the health consequences of it. The problem lay in the minimal regulations regarding e-cigarettes and vaping products. With it not strictly illegal to vape around children, there is little enforceable recourse. Until society, lawmakers, and further studies catch up, educating children is our/their best defence. Need to find solutions within the realm of what one can do, rather than want to do.

Encourage D10, build up her confidence, so she can ask her Dad about not vaping around her. He may just listen to her.

I suspect where you live sun-dogs are exceedingly rare. The last few nights have been so clear here, I’ve been walking and star gazing. Venus is shinning brightly, hanging well above the western horizon, from sunset to 10:00pm. It’s not as rare, yet still spectacular. The brightest diamond in the night sky.

As the twilight fades, more and more points of light peek out. A vast multitude of heavenly bodies, twinkling, shining, reaching their delicate light Earthward.

Perhaps you can find some time and somewhere dark, for you and the kids, to peek back at the splendour.

I’ll be thinking about you.

DnJ


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SBJ -- Yes, the readings this past week whacked me right in the gullet. But I also met with a priest who told me that it was not only my right but my obligation to defend my home and finances for my children. I wish I had understood that before. Anyway, hopefully during Lent I will find some center again and more trust in God's will. I have been really down as the divorce screws tighten and the for sale sign goes on my house. My H is even trying to get alimony. I have spent all my savings just to defend myself against this man.

Anyway, thanks for stopping in and for the prayers. I wish you a good Lent and hope to "see" you after Easter. Your W does seem to be knocking on some door or another. Not sure if it's your front door but maybe it's a door that leads to a door that leads to a side door....


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Originally Posted by DnJ


I think I understand what you mean about not wanting your kids to forgive, yet. It stems from how accepting of things, young children are. They mush together acceptance and forgiveness; too immature to realize and separate the two.

I suspect S14 is grown pass that stage, now beginning to discern forgiveness, acceptance, and the tie between them. D10 is probably not there yet, but not for long, she’s a smart gal, and usually girls mature emotionally sooner than boys.

I empathize with the battle you face getting through the business of this situation. Such cruelty and viciousness from a spouse just adds to the tangled mess. Stay strong, progress is being made.

I do agree with you about vaping and the health consequences of it. The problem lay in the minimal regulations regarding e-cigarettes and vaping products. With it not strictly illegal to vape around children, there is little enforceable recourse. Until society, lawmakers, and further studies catch up, educating children is our/their best defence. Need to find solutions within the realm of what one can do, rather than want to do.

Encourage D10, build up her confidence, so she can ask her Dad about not vaping around her. He may just listen to her.

DnJ


I am glad you always see progress being made. I think you are right. I was thinking today about how I did get custody and I am still in my house even though it's going on the market, I still might keep it, how I am seeing friends and family again, and how I might even settle the whole thing on Thursday. I am just so tired, DnJ! I really am just so weary. The visit from the broker and the nasty message sometime later that they would be putting up a for sale sign and "you had better tell your client not to try to sabotage the sign," lord, they just get me every time. I have so many regrets that I didn't protect myself better. Looking back it all seems so clear but over the past year I didn't see that it could get this bad, I just kept trying to settle instead of protecting myself and my kids, and now it's too late and my H gets more vicious and scary each day.

D10 was so sad today, and S14, about the for sale sign. We had a friend over to help D10 talk about her feelings, and the friend asked what her dad had said about it. D10 told us that H had never said a word to her about selling the house. My friend said, "But what did he tell you was his plan? Did he say it would all be okay and you'd have another nice place to live?" D10 kept saying, "No, he just pretends that nothing is happening. He doesn't care about me." But then she asked me if she could call him to say hi, she clearly felt she was betraying him,and then she told me she didn't want to "ruin" their relationship by telling him how she felt. He just has her totally tied in knots and is leaving me to clean up the messes he keeps making. Or has no idea that she and S are human beings with feelings, even though he pretends he cares about D10 so much in his middle school boyfriend way

I worry that she is not safe with him. I am so scared he will hurt her, I have no idea anymore what he is capable of and he is so consumed with hate, but I have no basis for keeping her from the overnights so I have to just accept it.

She was asking me about you the other day. She wanted your advice on handling her best friend, who is a bit difficult. I said that it was very sweet that she thought about that and that you would probably encourage her to figure out what she believed and try to live confidently in that belief. I told her that after Easter we could ask you for your advice on the big issues of having a parent who is confused, etc.

S14 was very upset about the sign but he is so street savvy and confident. He told me he would be tearing down the sign regularly. I said, "I can't do that." But then I realized that S had every right to express his anger at his father that way. There is no reason to have a sign out there as it can be marketed without it to avoid upsetting the children. S might just pull it down regularly. What is H going to do, have his son arrested? Not that I told S this but I thought about what would happen if S did that and how it would actually be quite good for H to see how angry his son is at him, to have to face that consequence of his choices. He has never had to explain to his kids what he is doing, that is all on me, and to deal with all their confusion and grief and anger. So maybe it would be good if he had to explain to his broker why his son keeps ripping down the sign! Anyway, we'll see what happens, so many things are beyond my control at this point.

I saw an old friend on the street today, one that knew us 15 years ago at our last business and who is a therapist. I asked him if he was surprised at H's change, and if he ever saw any signs. He said, "Well, he seemed like a nice guy but I will say this -- he was very stuck in his head, and reminds me of many who work at the college by me. They are very heady, very stuck in the brain, and they are very angry. He did seem really angry at times."

Anyway, I know what you will say about all that. But I'm not rewriting history. I am trying to face what truths I might not have realized until now, looking back at everything, remembering all the times I felt unloved or that I was eggshelling or fixing our lives or going into debt to make H happy without him ever trying to truly take care of me. I can't deny it. I still think he could have become his best self through marriage, and I still think he had a drastic break/change, but I think the seeds were much bigger and more apparent than I saw until now.

And now it's time for me to go into Lent Land. I made the best chocolate chip cookies I ever made tonight and made myself ill eating them since I am giving up sweets and screens (for entertainment, not work). I am going to try to give up revenge but not sure I will be able to. But mostly I am going to try to give myself over to trusting God with everything -- my house, my future, my children, my joy, my writing. I know that's where peace lies. I am scared to do it though.

I was upstate this past week at our cabin, and the night sky was all stars, no moon. Breathtaking indeed. I will look for more and think of what you said about them. I am glad you will be thinking of me because I will be thinking of you, and praying that you feel all the awe you can feel encountering sun dogs on the horizon and the ones you see with your inner eye....


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Goodbye, all my friends here esp DnJ, Grace, SBJ, SJohn, Job, Own, KML, Westo, new friends Cardinal and Canbird, and everyone! until Easter. Sometimes I allow a slip and peek at my thread or yours, so maybe you will leave me a message here and there. I will pray for you all.


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Have a good lent my friend.

Look to God’s blessings, they’re all around you.

Love & Peace,

DnJ


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Gerda, have a fulfilling Lenten season. I encourage you to pray, pray, pray and ask God for His grace and guidance for you and your children.

I watched Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ last weekend and each time I do it reopens my eyes to the pain that Jesus went thru for "me". I highly recommend watching it. I tear up each time.

God bless!!!


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Have a good Lent Gerda, peace and love to you.

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Gerda -

I hope that your Lenten journey brings you peace, hope, and closer to God.

Grace


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Gerda,

Have a peaceful break and don't let his shenanigans get you down if you can help it.

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Hi Gerda. I was thinking about you today and wanted to drop in and check on you. I hope you and your kids are doing ok with all the crazy quarantine stuff going on. And happy lent!

-Sam


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Hello Gerda

An early Happy Easter to you.

I hope your Lent was fulfilling and illuminating.

I have thought of you, and your kids, often. Hoping and praying your situation is getting better. Wondering how you are all doing with the MLC from H and the Covid pandemic. The later being globally shared; even here in little town nowhere particular. smile

Our virtual sitting and enjoying a coffee together can still happen; physical distancing protocols are enforced. Who knew you and I just had a head start on everyone. I’ve never had so many phone calls, online meetings, been so connected - and yet see hardly anyone. Posting here has been good practice and I suspect we do not have as severe withdrawal symptoms as some of society seems to be suffering.

Peace to you.

DnJ


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Gerda - I'm missing your visits to the boards. Think of you often. Hope all is well, and your insanity will come to an end soon.

(((Gerda)))

Grace


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Westo, Own, all who stopped by with good wishes, love to you all.

Sjohn, once in a while during Lent I would check my thread and a couple of others, just peering in. It was really nice to see you were thinking about me, thank you so much.

DnJ, indeed, but I am not sure we need to be as socially distant as these boards require but it was great to see you stopped by. I read your thread once in a while and noticed from afar that all was still beautiful in DnJ Land. Grace even helped me once on a phone call by saying, "Well, DnJ would ask, what are you afraid of?" and that discussion led to a major epiphany.

Grace, my friend, you are in my thoughts all the time.

About the boards and me -- well, as usual, Lent taught me to lean on God more, to trust that He did not make a mistake. And a lot a lot a lot has happened. I am not really ready to do a long write-about to tell you everything, there is a lot to tell. I am very overwhelmed with all that I have to do each day so I don't even know when I will have time either! I will just say that the divorce stuff is far worse for me than anything I have to deal with in my city, and for those who know my city, that will tell you a lot. But I am pro se now and it has been amazing to finally stand up for myself. No one can shut me up now! The courts are closed but I have already won a couple of battles. But as far as what is going on here, I feel very lucky to be healthy and very sad for friends and family who have lost someone, happy for friends/family who have recovered from Covid. The future is so unknown as far as work, foreclosure, etc. I am at peace about everything.

And DnJ, today I heard from a student of mine who I taught in the 90's when I worked in one of America's most dangerous neighborhoods. We stayed in touch over the years, and he even stayed with me and H upstate once after 9/11 because he was struggling with what he had experienced that day. Anyway, he wrote to me today and it reminded me of the time you were so thunderstruck by the quote that H had taught me -- "The child can't distinguish between the gift and the giver." You talked about the impact that had on you, and how we never know how life will feed us what we need, how it happened that I knew that quote and how it came to you. Well, this student wrote to me a note about various other things, and then the quote below. I didn't even remember teaching that play to any students, let alone him,let alone that year. Thunderstruck. Sat here reading the quote a hundred times and thinking of all that happened to each of us and the world between the time that quote hit him, unbeknownst to me, in my class in an American ghetto in the 90's and now.

I imagine you are super busy doing online classes and try g to be their for your children and students. I know how great a teacher you are. So, any time you want to chat I'm here. But hopefully we can get back to normal life and be healthy soon.

There’s a quote I remember from reading Death of a salesman in your AP class ”The jungle is dark but full of diamonds”

Best to you and your family

(N)


I just keep reading it and weeping but from hope and joy.

Last edited by Gerda; 04/15/20 01:20 AM.

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Hello Gerda

That is a wonderful quote.

Wow, a student from the 90’s. That’s some impression you made.

You touch far more people than you realize my dear.

I am glad you and your family are healthy. And at peace about everything. Really glad about that.

DnJ


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I am at peace, DnJ, in many ways. But the war rages with H, no outer peace. I would really like to tell you all about it and hear your take. Just so overwhelmed here, no time to even write this. Good to "see" you though...


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Good Morning Gerda

It is good to “see” you as well.

I would love to sit and listen and talk. Sharing, enjoying, a coffee or two or six, with heavy cream and sugar. Sharing and enjoy our company.

I am glad to hear you’re at peace.

Not the raging war, nor the overwhelming tasks that surround, can shake one’s inner peace.

A few moments; a few deep breaths; a gaze upward; an extending of your feelings towards the divine; re-anchors one when things do flare up.

How are son and daughter?

I suspect them being at home full time has been interesting for them. And you. Schools closed and lesson at home does take a bit to get used to.

Take a moment and swim in your peace.

It’s early morning here. The sky is dark blue/grey. As the sun slowly rises, the world awakens from dim monochromatic to vibrant colour. Much more is visible. One can see to the far off horizon. The tress, the leaves, the grass, the sky, the clouds, all comes into view from the shadowy embrace of night.

Awakenings are like that. The colour of our life returns.

I find such peace at sunrise. A reminder of new, and yet same.

Breathe it in.

DnJ


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Glad to see you popped by, Gerda. Think of you often. Let that inner peace wash over you. Feel it, live it.

Hugs,

Grace


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Originally Posted by Grace21
Think of you often.


Back at you, my friend!


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The promised cut and paste for DnJ --

I was talking about my jealousy of your kids' clear-headedness and ability to set boundaries and stand up for what is right and what they want/need. I am usually doing this on my own into not even a void -- I have a three-headed monster of insane cruel narcissistic H, the embodiment of his damaged soul in the form of his lawyer -- the world's nastiest and I am realizing quite stupid, greediest lawyer -- and a judge who is known in my city as the one divorce court judge who does not care about children or women. (As a woman herself, with an all-women courtroom --even the bailiff -- she is a particularly vicious misogynist, trying to show she doesn't pick favorites with women, no matter what their story is.) And then I have two kids who are so damaged that my efforts to heal them are SLOOOOOOOOOW.

Things are in a way much easier with S14, who sees and understands and is like your D, no point in reconnecting with a ghost who hurt you so much. He still struggles mightily with his emotional issues but is way better than last year and has basically no contact with H except for some CRAZY exchanges that happened during Lent and that one day I have to tell you about. With D11 (now 11!), she loves her dad in a weird middle school romance way that I find really disturbing. He is reckless and unsafe (pandemic choices that are shocking, vaping, drinking and emotionally abusive to her, talks about me horribly -- that I lie, steal his money, keep them apart, etc -- the whole time they are together) but she can't see it. Or rather, she sees it sort of but not enough to protect herself or set boundaries. She has a lot of learning disabilities and though she has a high level of emotional maturity, she literally can't understand many things people say. She struggles particularly with nonfiction in school (science, social studies, current events) and it takes me HOURS to help her understand that kind of school work. This crosses over into the world of H, where she doesn't know how to interpret what he is saying/doing. And it's not that I think I have to justify myself or get her approval on parenting choices but only that I want her to protect herself. She is afraid to even tell him basic things -- e.g., don't comment on her body, or no, I don't want to travel every other weekend to a city five hours a way if you move there. Or please don't vape when I am in the room/car. Or please don't talk about my mom for two hours straight when I say to stop. I have her in therapy finally so I am hoping this will help. But for now I have to battle my own feelings at times that she is betraying me. I know it's not true, I am only talking about interior feelings. I constantly have to discuss visitation issues and other issues with her because H feeds her so many lies, and sometimes I get so angry inside with her for not seeing the truth, and then have to conquer my own face and tone of voice to hide that anger so she won't feel bad. It's crazy making.

I still haven't caught you up with the details but I think now that Grace and I are IRL friends and talk on the phone at times, I got spoiled about how to catch up and it seems too daunting.

Also I notice after being away from the boards that there are two impulses to visiting them, at least for me. One is to get support from friends and provide support to them (and to new friends) but another is a sort of sad voyeurism, like binge watching a sad Netflix series. I have a lot of work to do and in free time I have my artistic projects to do, anything that pulls me from that, no matter how worthy, needs to be limited. So I know for myself I need to be very picky about reading threads, as much as I would like to help newcomers. I think updating my own thread from time to time and visiting the threads of the friends I already have here has to be my future plan, if I don't cut myself off from the boards entirely....

Last edited by Gerda; 04/25/20 03:36 PM.

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Hello Gerda

Catching up on threads can be a daunting task for sure. This forum is slow when compared to a phone call. You and Grace are lucky to have a IRL connection. I am happy at that “spoiling” that a you have.

I think it is a good sign of healing when one realizes the limited time available for here because they are so busy elsewhere. I do understand your limited free time and appreciate it when you invest some of it with me us here. smile

Yeah, I still talk like it’s just you and me sitting down having coffee.

Three characters - H, H’s L, and judge. Wow, what a group to have to face. The court proceedings have always sounded horrible. It will be such a relief when the settlement is reached.

I am sorry your kids are having a hard time. Setting boundaries and standing up for themselves is coming. Yes, it’s slow. Have faith and remember, you don’t heal them, you guide them, they heal them. You are the role model. You explain and empathize. They question, rationalize, accept, and heal.

S14, is growing up into a man. He is smart and sees what is going on. I like that he seeks to understand and is making choices to protect himself and consider boundaries. Do help him realize how to do that compassionately.

For a lad of 14, he needs some man stuff to do. And no that’s not all just sitting on the couch and burping. Although that does require many years of practice to get it right. Lol.

Last year, S14 was working with some construction worker and enjoyed it. He had some good male role models, and learnt some stuff. How about you ask S14, and encourage him, to fix those broken windows.

When I was 14, I mowed various lawns and shovelled snow. I also had a job as a handyman. I worked for a wealthy lady and repaired and remodelled a few rooms in her very large house/mansion.

Oh, that was a gorgeous house. I was amazed I was trusted to work there. I’d go over on weekends and work unattended. She’d tell me what she wanted the finished product to look like and I’d go about it. She set up a line of credit at the hardware store for me and left me to get things done. I’d get advice from my Dad, who was a rather handy man too.

So, for S14. I think fixing those broken windows. Painting them and reinstalling them would be such a good thing for him. And of course you get some windows fixed too.

Same for the hammock. He can manage to get that set up in the rat garden. He is probably pretty strong. Also, I don’t think you need any big rental drill for anchors, the basic small hand held one with a carbide bit will be fine for the anchors. However, I might suggest a hammock with its own stand, one that doesn’t affix to the wall. It is movable and doesn’t require any of that difficult installation.

There are lots of instructions and videos on the internet for how to glaze a window. (btw, glaze means install in window-speak smile so glazing putty is just installation putty).

Helping out - in a manly style - will be beneficial for son. Guys get a boost when they fix, create, and do stuff. He’ll get a boost in self confidence, and self image. Even emotional balance. Us men are weird that way. It’s how we define ourselves - at first.

I hope I’m not intruding too much here. It’s just, I do have some experience in this, being a guy, and raising three boys.

I also have a daughter.

Daddy will alway be a daughter’s first love. So yes, D11 will show signs of a middle school type relationship. It’s ok. She’ll grow and the relationship will mature.

Unfortunately, her Dad, is not a very good role model. You cannot go against this. Fighting D11 on this will not work. Have faith she will grow and will see what’s actually going on. And probably sooner than you think.

For now, and always, you are Mom. That is it’s own special bond. A bond between you and son, and a bond between you and daughter.

Keep showing D11 a good path. Tell her those ideals, assure her of her worth, let her feel safe with you. She is learning how to face and speak up to her Dad. A tough thing. Remember she loves her Dad. Learning boundaries and standing up for one’s self are hard lessons. Encourage her to find her voice and her compassion.

People do tend to define themselves by their hands, by what they do. Projects for S14 will alter his self image. It’s the same for D11. Projects will alter her. Help her to find her way.

My daughter had an affinity for babysitting. That nurturing instinct, which seems to usually be stronger on the female side, was indeed strongest with her when compared to the boys. D11 just turned eleven, so that is a little further away. However, there are many things a little “Gerda” would be able to, and want to do.

Let her embrace her artistic side. She can make a bead curtain for her bedroom doorway. I wonder what pattern or picture she would want to create out of beads. It’s a good way for a young girl to express herself.

Just a few ideas.

DnJ


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I owe you a note, DnJ, just time has become a complete blur with trying to work and homeschool. But most of all the constant attacks from H. We had a week of attacks about him moving to one state and then to another in opposite direction and now his broker has started up again writing to me to put the sign back on the house though his contract ends May 19 and no brokers are allowed to do anything except remotely until the governor's orders change. We have a conference on May 20 but his lawyer keeps writing to demand that the marketing period be extended.

None of these people are thinking, gee, I wonder if it's a good time for this woman to have to find a new place to live and for her children to have to move, should they sell the place. Remember where I live and you will see that this is INSANE. I had to prepare for H taking D11 across state lines to his new place in another state four hours away by installing an app on her phone to trace her and being ready to call the police. His lawyer was sending me horrible threatening notes about interfering with visitation and no one seemed aware that we are supposed to be sheltering in place. But amazingly I discovered that the L who did the custody agreement allowed a section saying that I can't move more than 5 miles from my current house but NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT H moving. So I can't even use the custody agreement. I have been advised by domestic abuse center lawyer to get the heck out of divorce court so I can go to family court, where the kids will be protected. She said all that before she knew who my judge is, and when I told her my judge's name, there was this dead silence for a minute, and then she just said, "Oh, God. You HAVE to get out of that courtroom. She hates children." So it wasn't my imagination.

CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT LITTLE INNOCENT STAND-FOREVER GERDA HAS ENDED UP LIKE THIS?!

OK but the thing I am grappling with now is about fear. I keep trying to figure out what it is I am so afraid of. I know it's a remnant from my own troubled childhood. I always felt terrified of the fighting, was always looking for ways to make everyone calm, to get the house clean, to be sure no one would explode. And if I couldn't, I used to hide inside my closet. I started sleeping on the porch when I was 16, and I threw out almost everything I owned, I wanted nothing tying me there so I could leave the second I was able. And then I learned that if you cut off contact, they couldn't hurt you anymore. So I became this stone when I was around my family, and then when I was able to leave, I left and was able to mostly not contact them. If I opened up a little and they hurt me, I would just stop talking to them again for a while. Once my mom came to see me when I was living in FL after a run-away adventure and I had a panic attack and became feverish to the point of delirium! Now I recreated that, just like your W and my H recreated their triggers. I have cut off contact with H, the one who hurts me. But H keeps sneaking his fingers around the wall to grab at me. I notice that it's the fear that I will have to have contact with him or his L or his broker. I was doing so well when I thought I had bought some time and now that the court date is approaching and the broker is starting up again, I wake up gasping all night, can't sleep, headaches and nausea like the old days.

There are two Gerdas. One is healed, ready for a new life. And one is still petrified of... ? Of the contact with H, just having to see his name or his text or answer another one of his battle calls, unable to break free via divorce and because of his hold on D11. I created a settlement offer that offers him a downpayment and a slow repayment of his share of the equity, with interest, until I can refinance. That all depends of course this moment in history and how the banks will handle our troubles. But I doubt he will say yes to it, so my life is in the hands of the pissy court attorney, and so I am constantly allowing my fear of that to overtake me, of not being able to explain clearly or to convince her to encourage that settlement.

DnJ, you have said that I already went through the worst. H already did everything he could do and I survived.

But it seems like the other stuff will never end. I am afraid he won't accept my settlement offer and I'll have to keep on this way. I am afraid he won't let up with D11 and I will have to go to family court if I ever make it out of divorce court. I am afraid I will never have head space -- whenever I have a couple of days, something from H or his L comes in and I spiral. My best friend pointed out yesterday that I may be like that inside but that outside I appear to be a total bada$$ and that they are more afraid of me! I managed to get custody and get him out of our home, I managed to hold on to my upstate rental business and so far I am still holding on to our downstate rental business. And yet I feel that I live on a constant injection of cortisol and I am miserable with that -- I want to be the other Gerda only!

Another friend whose W went MLC around the same time as my H is done with his D but she keeps starting up again -- she had a baby while the D was going on and married the OM and only has visitation but keeps trying to change that or to influence their schooling, etc. I asked him about it and he said we'll never be totally free of that.

I do not think the peace you have is possible for people like us, with younger kids and a spouse driven to hurt and control us. There is never any chance for lasting peace. I know you will say differently. But just say it as a friend whose friend is crying on your shoulder and not as a dad, this girl needs a hug from a friend her own age.


Last edited by Gerda; 05/08/20 07:10 PM.

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I know you were writing to DnJ but I want to give you a big hug after reading that.

(((((Gerda)))))


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Hello Gerda

Originally Posted by Gerda
I do not think the peace you have is possible for people like us, with younger kids and a spouse driven to hurt and control us. There is never any chance for lasting peace. I know you will say differently. But just say it as a friend whose friend is crying on your shoulder and not as a dad, this girl needs a hug from a friend her own age.

(((Gerda)))

I am a friend. Lean into my shoulder. Bury your face into my chest, against my beating heart. Feel my arms wrap around, across your back, and hold you safe.

I am sorry you are hurting.

Today will be only empathy.

Love
DnJ


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Hi Gerda. ((Hugs to you)). I'm sorry you're having to deal with all these things.

Originally Posted by Gerda
My best friend pointed out yesterday that I may be like that inside but that outside I appear to be a total bada$$ and that they are more afraid of me! I managed to get custody and get him out of our home, I managed to hold on to my upstate rental business and so far I am still holding on to our downstate rental business. And yet I feel that I live on a constant injection of cortisol and I am miserable with that -- I want to be the other Gerda only!



Sounds like your friend IRL knows you. And look at what you've done! How empowering! You are showing D11 what you can do. Keep being a great example. 

Right now, times ARE tough. Mlc is tough. Being a parent is tough. Being a kid is tough. Being alive right now is tough. BREATHE..... You are not alone. Everyone is going through something. We are here for you. In these hard times look for the silver lining. It will not be this way forever. We all have differnt stories, but we are the same in that we struggle & we survive. 

You're a bada$$ momma. Happy Mother's Day.

Last edited by CanBird; 05/09/20 07:16 AM.

~Never Give Up ~
2019
Mar BD
June BD
Dec Aow/xgf
2020
Jan he wants D
Feb he flys2 ow
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Gerda -

I feel helpless from afar, unable to help my friend. But, a warm hug is here, and a shoulder to cry on. Know that all your feelings are normal. I'm proud of you for recognizing how you repeat the past. I believe this will help you deal with that past, and heal. Your friend is wise to remind you that in spite of your inner feelings, you take care of business when you need to. Remind yourself over and over of all your successes, so that those thoughts can replace some of the ones that are trying to overtake you.

((((Gerda))))

Grace


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Happy Mother’s Day Gerda

You are doing an excellent job of being Mom.

Please enjoy your day. You deserve it.

DnJ


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Thank you, DnJ, Grace, Scout and CanBird, for these wonderful messages. I read them all the past few days a few times and they brought me a lot of comfort. I will write more soon in reply and reflection but the love you sent was amazing and just what I needed. Love to you all, and a Mother's Day poem for three out of four -- or for all four, since DnJ has filled the Mom role -- esp with D17 -- rather impressively. And Happy Mother's Day to Job and Westo and Kml and Bttrfly and Peace (and Own, if you ever see this!) and all the moms I know here and don't know here who are reading this message now and always -- remember that your stand through MLC is the most amazing gift you could give your children, they are watching how you kept your focus on their needs, watching your strength and courage and hope in the face of this MLC tragedy, and that memory will feed them all their lives...


If I Sleep While My Baby Sleeps

By Alice B. Fogel

I will hear his sleep
in and through my own, my sleep will be bathed in his as if we slept in one same fluid

My sleep floats within a listening so deep that the separating spaces of air become
as pliant and full as snowfall,

its singing silence as profound

My ears and his throat —
the sensation of anticipated hearing close inside the ear
and the incipient murmur or cry forming at the end of his sleep — borne like birds and thrumming on the air of rooms between us

My own sleep will be his
clock, safely keeping time,
his sleep tunes my dreams to listen, our sleep binds the hour,
heavy and warm,
into a blanket of air
and sound

Last edited by Gerda; 05/11/20 01:06 AM.

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Wait for the Lord with courage.
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Good Morning Gerda

Fear.

Originally Posted by Gerda
There are two Gerdas. One is healed, ready for a new life. And one is still petrified of... ?

Which wolf are you feeding?

Fear is self reinforcing. Find that feedback and break it.

It’s good you see the recreation of your childhood fear and your response of turning to stone so as to not face it. Gerda, step out of the closet!

Yes the headaches, lack of sleep; like the old days; is not helping.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I always felt terrified of the fighting, was always looking for ways to make everyone calm, to get the house clean, to be sure no one would explode.

What happened during the fighting? What happened after the fighting?

Fear hides in the shadows, in our imagination/creation. Yes, scared and worried about fighting. Because....

Dig here. Rationalize here. Your fear paralyzes you. Turns you to stone. The fighting is only a part of it.

And perhaps your fear of conflict gets in your own way. We are in a fight with our own emotions. Mental assertiveness. Sword and shield. Not the time to turn to stone and hide.

Originally Posted by Gerda
I do not think the peace you have is possible for people like us, with younger kids and a spouse driven to hurt and control us. There is never any chance for lasting peace. I know you will say differently.

What’s your definition of peace?

Fear is in your mind. So is peace. Neither is external.

Much love and hugs.

DnJ


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Gerda

When you have renewed strength at the end of your MLC journey with your H, you need to write a book about it. And the craziness and drama will make it a bestseller and you will earn millions. That will be the universe giving you back most of what H took. And you making $$$ off his insanity will drive him crazy.(er?) karma.&#128512;

I’ve been following your thread long before I became a member. And honestly, I had to set it aside at times because I was so angry on yours and your kids behalf.

The fact that you are still standing, and I mean literally still physically standing upright, and functioning is testament to your strength as a mother and human being. No one should have to live your story.

Thank you for your support on my thread. I don’t know where I should Post my reply’s to you. On my thread or yours. So. I think I will do it on mine. Even though I think I’ve done others on theirs. Sheesh. Forum etiquette is new to me.
And I feel a mess.

Keep the strength today.

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MissnM -- Your post really touched me so much, thank you! It is so amazing to think that anyone out there is following along and caring about me or being angry on my behalf. I mean, I know I have a few friends here, but to think that there are a bunch of anonymous people not posting who are caring/following, that's quite something. Thank you! I told my best friend what you said about me standing upright, and she loved it.

DnJ -- Thank you for the empathy post and the discussion post. I will answer your questions soon. But one thing I will say -- I don't remember what happened before/after. I am one of those who remembers almost nothing about her childhood -- trauma survival kicked in, I guess. I am still drowning in work but on my 20th wedding anniversary, this week, I have a telephone court conference. I am going to present my settlement proposal and try to keep a clear head and not feed my fear. But remember that anxiety is not only about what you feed. I am realizing that it's my background radiation.

Now here is a question I posted for HaWho on her thread, but really anyone who has a thought about this from his/her own sitch, please chime in!


I wanted to ask you something but I don't know if it's better in my own post, so I will post it in both and if you ever have time to answer, you can answer wherever is better for you.

I am thinking a lot about my past with my H, and I was thinking about your sitch too -- as once someone said something to you about how it seemed like your H had a psychotic break of some kind, in addition to MLC. I always thought this of mine too. But lately I am sifting a little bit through some of my past with my H because he is conducting such a horrifically vicious divorce (to the point that I wonder at times if he is capable of violence) that I started to wonder if there were seeds I missed along the way. For one thing, I started to think about how his obsession through MLC was over money and thinking I was hiding his money or controlling it, etc. but with no basis in reality. Looking back over the years, I realized I could not say that this seed wasn't there from our first days dating. I realized that when I met him, he was deeply in debt and had run up a huge debt on his mother's credit card to pay tuition. His father had just found out and he and his mom were in big trouble about it. It caused a real rift with his already estranged father -- and his wounds are all father-based. During MLC once I found the OW's credit card info scrawled in a notebook, he had already convinced her to pay for something -- this pattern of convincing people to help him out of his financial messes. He convinced his friend, the godfather of our kids, to PAY FOR HIS DIVORCE LAWYER!!!

Once we were a couple, I helped him pay off his debts -- not with money, but I mean by organizing payment schedules for him, etc. Early in our relationship, I remembered that I had paid off ALL my debts, including student loans, and I felt so free and so light. I was a teacher, not making much, and had gone to grad school that I had to pay for most of, but I worked a lot, and I was very frugal. And then the blur of my life with him began and it was a life of financial risk that got us into property ownership and businesses but that kept us in debt. He was always talking about what a whiz he was but looking back, I realized it was always me who made things happen, he had ideas but no facility with money. He would never do bill paying stuff with me, wouldn't help with taxes and would freak out whenever I tried to explain financial realities, even before MLC. Once MLC hit and he stopped working, started stealing money from our biz and our home, all financial reality checks would end with him screaming to sell our house, so I stopped telling him anything, and he began saying I was hiding and controlling all money, even if I did try to show him again and the house-selling-yelling would begin again. We own two properties and both mortgages are in my name only because his credit was so bad -- our rental place upstate doesn't even have him on the deed! I realized he never worked to get out of debt, let alone to buy me something I needed, like a coat, and was always pushing us to the next thing. This is just one example, and I don't want to believe the history rewriting either, but I can't deny this truth. And I have started to wonder if he was always NPD and that I just had my own wounds and didn't see it. I know he was different, looked different, acted different, but I have started to wonder if there was some mental illness all along, and it was so much like the mental illness in my house growing up that I somehow was drawn to it without realizing it was the same.

So I was wondering if you have had thoughts like these about your H and whatever his big issue was, that the seed was there all along, or was it a complete alien to whom you had known.

I don't mean to obsess over the past, but I am sifting in order to understand my own wounds and the choices I made, so I wanted to ask you about it, as our sitches have been so similar and even started around the same time.


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Wait for the Lord with courage.
Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
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Gerda,

The description of what your h was like and what you did for him...well...that is very much what I experienced. Yes, there was mental illness on his mother's side of the family. As for his father, well...he would lie and steal from God if he could. He was a serial cheater and he used women for what he could get out of them, i.e., a place to live and would spend all of their money and once the money was gone...so was he.

My xh was always saying that he was not like his father and he didn't suffer from any type of mental illness. Well, when MLC hit, he became his father to the letter. I often suspected that my xh was mildly depressed, but could never put my finger on it as he hid his feelings well. He never reacted to things the way that most people would...he would always have this straight face and nothing seemed to faze him.

I chose to honor my marriage vows and I had accepted him for who he was...but when MLC hit, he became a totally different person, very selfish, entitled, liar, thief and a cheater. He attempted to bully me at every turn, he threatened to cut my phone service when my 81 year old father just had hip replacement surgery, he stole packages of items that I had ordered, he sent me threatening email/letters all of the time, etc. So, I do know what you have been and continue to go through. I tried so very hard to get the divorce wrapped up in a year, but he continued to nit pick and then one day, I finally told my lawyer to cease all work and that if he truly wanted this divorce (since he filed), he would finally get some b*lls and step up to the plate and get the divorce moving along. When his lawyer contacted mine about something, my lawyer advised her that we were no longer playing games and everything had ceased. It didn't take him long to get up off his duff and finalize it. Bottom line...he thought if he continued to prolong the proceedings, I would give him everything to make him go away...it didn't happen. So, yes, there was some NPD going on w/him.

I often think about my marriage and have asked myself many times over why I would have put up w/his behavior for 25 years. I have the type of personality that I call a spade a spade and generally do not put up with a lot of nonsense. It took me many years to remove those rose colored glasses, but they are off now...but I truly did not remove them until after the divorce.

Gerda, do not blame yourself for what you did over the years. You were being a dutiful wife, a person who was trying to help her husband, a wife that loved her husband and didn't realize that he had flaws. Sometimes, we choose not to see what is in front of us, but when we look in the rear view mirror, we can see a lot better what was.

Please, please do not beat yourself up. You are not alone in this. There are many of us who did whatever it took to help our spouses be successful and happy in our relationships.

New Thread:

Through the World Barefooted -- Gerda's LBS Guide

Last edited by job; 05/19/20 09:07 PM. Reason: added link to new thread

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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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