Gerda Finally Sees the Broken Fragments

[DnJ]

Hello Gerda

I agree with Own, job, and Grace - very good advice there.

Your attachment to the property is something that can be exploited. I do understand your desire to hang on to the place. Remember this is a business deal, leave emotions out of it.

Like a kid in the sandbox with a toy, as soon as you don’t show interest in it, the bully doesn’t want it anymore. But, you need to really mean it, to really be there. I’m not saying that will happen, that H will loose interest, it’s just the place you need to get too when negotiating with H. Don’t forget he is irrational and will “think” emotionally. As you said it was like negotiating with a terrorist.

You bluff idea sounds interesting. I do think there is too much on the table to risk with such a maneuver. However, a lawyer really needs to be consulted to look over all the aspects of your situation, and provide a solid answer on the best course of action regarding that. That being said, Own’s reasoning/advice is pretty solid, in my layman opinion.

DnJ

[Gerda]

Thank you, Everyone! Lots to think about.

Gosh, Own, I wish YOU were my lawyer!

I will write more later after I have done a little more research and thought about all your advice. But I wanted to tell you that I am positive we have another judge if we go to trial, my judge told us that. I have the worst judge in the system, so while I might get another bad judge, I cannot get a worse one. And I am pretty sure that ANY other judge would care more about kids than this one, as this one does not care about kids at all, has never asked about them or considered the effect of anything on them including H's constant threats to move back in or H not paying any child support.

I am not emotional in court. I am no contact with H except for texts about picking up D10. He still sends me long texts but I don't reply except with a few words confirming times, etc. He is blocked from my e-mail. I usually keep my head in a book. I was a little fiery last court time if you recall -- I had a moment of telling H he was selling our kids and he ran out of the court room and I almost got into an altercation with H's lawyer because I did not back down when he came at me threateningly. That was the only time I showed emotion. Usually I just stay with my head in a book and listen to what I need to hear and block out the rest.

You are right that he will use what he knows I want -- he knows very well that the one thing I will avoid at all costs is him moving back in. So he uses that constantly and it is the reason I signed the deal last time. He also threatened that all day on Dec 1 when he thought I was late with the payment for that day (I wasn't). I finally texted him I would be blocking him from texts if he ever did that again and that was it for the day.

I don't think I could go pro se. I am too weary in the ol' soul.

About this other house -- this is one of my businesses, it is a rental business but we go there a lot as it started out as a family place. So I want to keep it also for financial reasons. But if my city place gets sold, we will lose so much in taxes and other costs, plus splitting it and paying off all debts at once, that I will not be able to afford to buy anything in the city. I would rent a teeny place in the city and live at the other place on school holidays and rent it out the rest of the time. And I am a little worried if it goes on the market it could actually go for more than the appraisal price. So it's not actually all emotional. I would say 50% emotional and 50% finance-savvy. But I am okay with losing everything as long as I have my kids. I know I can make something new with them. I just think it's worth a shot since H is fighting tooth and nail no matter how much I compromise, there is not really any point in surrendering it as I would have to wait anyway while he plays the market, he won't take a straight buy out and wants to pull my strings for as long as he can.

I think my L is whipped and tired. I think he also needs a shot in the arse to think I am ready to go to trial in order to start fighting a little harder. He does not want to go to trial but I don't think it's because of me. I have caught him lying a couple times about the odds. Today he said the new judge would force a sale with out a trial, and I said, "No, I have a right to a trial, and he said, Yeah, I mean, after a trial. He just caves all the time -- it's funny, I was thinking today that it's like me with H with all the enabling I did all these years. He would push and push and I would give in to keep the peace, no matter how unfair. When I stopped giving him money, one of the things I did to keep the family together, he filed and used it all against me. NOTE TO NEWBIES -- NEVER EVER EVER GIVE THE MLCer MONEY TO KEEP THE FAMILY TOGETHER! But sometimes I feel like my L is the L version of me and H's L is the L version of him, and they have the same exact dynamic of mine caving into the bullying to avoid further conflict!

[Gerda]

Thank you for the wishes, dear Westo!

[Gerda]

If you let go of your attachments to keeping these properties and can make him believe that, he may be more concerned heading into a trial where he could do significantly worse.

5. Would backing out on the property involve changing the custody/support/visitation issues with the children, and how would you feel about it if it did?

Think carefully and unemotionally before you make this decision. Don't do it rashly, and be prepared for both the possibility of better and worse outcomes and how you feel about them, as well as how you think you would handle the stress of having this still over your head.

Also, Own -- Do you think he could do significantly worse or you just mean that that is the risk for all of us at trial? I am not sure he will realize that potential either way as he is extremely delusional. But I wondered what you meant.

There will be no change in custody. He settled that last year, I insisted on settling it before I would discuss anything else. He caved almost instantly. He doesn't care about the kids, I think he just uses D10 to get at me honestly. But maybe he does care about her somewhere in his now-dark heart. Hasn't seen S14 since May.

About the stress -- what I realized is that the stress IS hanging over my head. I agreed to allow H to play the market with my house while I live in it, with his own broker and me not allowed to have any say in any of it, until June. Talk about stressful! So I realized that it would be in a way less stressful to have a trial where at least I didn't feel like a bug pinned to a piece of cardboard. I mean, I do not want a trial, I signed to avoid it. I am just not sure that what I took is any better and might be worse.

But as you say, I need to think long and hard. I might be better off just holding my breath for six months and putting my hands over my ears to say LALALALALALLAALALA while H dances around me with his for sale sign and buyers tromping under the leaking roof and crumbling walls.

[OwnIt]

Gerda, it is impossible to answer the question you ask about worse, but whether something is actually worse or someone thinks it is worse are two different things. I can only point out some things I recall you saying.

1. If a sale is forced, and I have no way of knowing if the court would do that on either property, but presumably more likely on the vacation property, it would be at the market rate and you guys would presumably split the proceeds after all mortgages, fees, etc. You might even be able to point out how he has been with money/jobs and get his equity as an advance on his support payments. They do something similar to this in my state. You'd have to check with a NY licensed family attorney.
2. I got the impression you offered him more equity in the deal or a higher price than he would get in a forced sale.
3. Not that I know, but I think it unlikely he would get to call the shots for 6 months on the sale in a forced sale situation. The loss of control over the outcome could be very difficult for someone like him.
4. A new judge may want to stick to either one of you. No way of knowing.
5. A different judge could order him to pay more support if still open (unless statutorily set, and even then might set a higher minimum point) or find that he is intentionally under/unemployed.
6. An appraisal for a buyout could be much higher than he would get in an actual sale if he forces it.
7. Have you looked into the possibility of a straw purchase on the vacation property if you are that intent on keeping it? Is it a possibility where you are? You might end up being able to buy it for way less money than he would make you agree and not have to deal with him (although there are other complexities that have to be considered). Of course you risk losing it to another buyer, but that would mean more money in your pocket.
8. I'm not sure I know why you have to be in the city. I didn't get the impression you had a regular, show-up every day kind of job in a specific place. Could you make the argument that if you have to sell the house to pay him out, then you will have to leave the city? Would that give him pause? Have you and the lawyer discussed whether that is a special consideration for the massively expensive place where you live?

I don't think any judge is going to be very sympathetic to your desire to keep the main property if you can't pay him out his equity or you guys can't come up with a fair appraisal situation or get the financing. I think it even more unlikely that they would entertain arguments about keeping the rental property, even if it is an investment or income property. There is not a lot of sympathy about forcing the sale of investment properties.

I can't stress enough that the desperation you have to hold onto these houses, and thereby agree to something with a tyrant or at an inflated price or other undesirable term, jeopardizes your ability to come out with a fair price and an even distribution of assets. I just don't think the court is going to buy into your various schemes for trying to keep them. It is not what the courts are there for. In some states they make you sell. In some states they let a primary parent hold onto the house until the graduation date. In some states, like mine, they award the house to someone.

You will never know if he was willing to go to the mattresses or cave unless you walk away from what you have, and that just seems risky given how hard this has been for you, the limited resources to carry on the fight, and the distrust you seem to have for your lawyer and the legal system.

Please take your time. Think through everything. Try to come to grips with why it is so important to hold onto the houses. A house is not a home. You've made good investments before and you will make them again I'm sure. Try not to catastrophize.

[Gerda]

Oh wow, Own, so helpful! Thank you!

I have to go through everything again and ponder/think, will try to take the time you mention though some of what is happening is deadline-based.

There are a bunch of things I left out, both because it seemed boring to include it all and also because some of it is too revealing of who/what/where.

But one thing I will say -- I think that H does want to destroy me and hurt me, yes. But mostly he just wants money. He is partly trying to hurt me over these places, but if I had a pile of money to give him for them tomorrow, I am sure he would take it and not care about hurting me by keeping them. I was reading what you were advising Pax, and I think it's similar for me, to figure out how far I want to go in being done with him and being able to start a new life, even if that means I am not getting a fair distribution. Because we have so much debt to deal with, this deal is the first way I will be able to get him to actually take responsibility for all the debt he left me with, but I am pretty sure we will have a hearing just to agree on the debts, even though it's all documented. And it will also enable a buy out, because I would be taking it off his share. The numbers work out well for me, even i I don't get what I deserve. As you say, his poor record helps to justify an advance payment of child support and anything else, but my L said that no judge here would order advance child support taken out of that, it could only happen as part of a deal, and they are not offering much in the way of deals. I would have to make an offer to take a lesser amount if it comes off up front. But basically -- the little cabin is something I could hold on to without a refi (and isn't a straw sale illegal?!), but the other place I would need to secure a refi to do. So I will either secure that refi and be able to do it, our agreement gives me right of first refusal, or I will not secure it and will have to sell.

In other words, that is out of my hands, I either get it and it works, or I don't and we sell. So everyone's advice to not hold on too tightly is built in, I have made my peace with either outcome. If I went to trial and went for sole use til kids are 18, that is the only thing that could change that outcome, but that's the risk and the stress and the expense -- and as you say, I don't have faith in my lawyer and can't afford a better one.

H abandoned us so long ago financially that I rarely think of trying to get what I am "due" for the kids. That might be a mistake or it might be pragmatic. And I saw in the court that it's a tough battle. He makes so little right now, and the imputing attempts were not going very far. It took me eight months just to get him to agree to give me $500 a month for both kids, no health insurance or any other help! and that stupid agreement I signed for the sake of peace and because my judge was so bad allowed him to have child support be a credit for me for later, to not to pay any of it until he gets his money! So that's another thing that I could try for at trial, but I might not get it. And honestly though it's all totally unfair, an extra $500 a month after all this time struggling totally alone would be a help!

It's hard to include all the relevant details here, I hope I didn't overdo it even with all the details I did give. Thank you so much for all your advice, I will study all the posts again tomorrow. I probably should have read everything before I responded to my L, I was quite DIRECT, but that's done, we'll see what response I get from him tomorrow too!

Grace and others have mentioned mediation. I am not sure I understand how that would fit in here. I think H will say no to it, but would that be a way to get the debts on the table and come up with numbers? And is it really expensive? How does anyone convince an MLCer to do that?

[job]

Gerda,

I posted this over on Grace's thread and hope that you will either visit her thread or this one today:

"Gerda,

Please be careful in sharing things concerning this forum w/your children. Your daughter may be quite chatty around your h and the next thing you know, he will be looking online for the name(s) she's dropping. I don't think you want him or the ow to go looking around the net and discovering your threads and then printing them off and using them against you.

Trust me, this has happened to other posters."

[Gerda]

Thank you, Job. I am not afraid of H or OW seeing anything here. In fact, I would more have to fight my desire that they do see it! But I hear what you are saying and I will keep it in mind for sure. I don't tell my kids much but both have received wonderful letters from a friend here so they do know I have a support group.

[Gerda]

Got a text from H today saying "nevertheless" he couldn't pick up D10 on Wed (third week in a row he has changed or cancelled) because of court. Nevertheless I guess meaning since I forced him to file another motion.

And he always seems to forget that if he can't pick up D10 because of court, neither can I.

I sent it to my L and said what is this and L wrote back, "I don't know, maybe he is filing a motion to compel you to use his broker."

I have not heard from L for a week though I keep calling and sending e-mails to push him on settling one of the big issues before moving forward on the biggest issue.

I have realized that the horrible deal that I signed is even worse than I thought because it has no numbers on it. So H is bullying more than ever and refusing to come to any agreement because we don't agree on what the numbers would be. The biggest part of that is that I calculated everything based on giving H what he would walk away with from a sale. He is calculating it based on the appraisal without any closing costs and we have never even agreed on the marital debt numbers. The closing costs in this case would be the difference in my ability to buy him out or not. So I signed a deal I thought I could afford as a buy out, but it is turning into a deal that forces a sale and leaves me with no power in a sale.

I was already considering pulling out of the deal and going to trial and I did find a new L who seems at least a little better than the current L because he asked all the same questions I have been asking -- e.g., why aren't we filing a motion on X or Y in order to have more leverage, why aren't the kids needs being considered or met?

Now it seems that my decision is made for me. I either keep defending myself with same judge who doesn't care about kids,same lawyer, same bad deal, or I get a new lawyer and a new judge and go to trial.

[Grace21]

My Dear Gerda - I haven't responded in a bit, but am following along. Sorry for all you are going through. I will echo Job's caution about sharing names on this forum with your kids. That they know you have a support group is one thing, but names are a bit dangerous. Because I knew a few on-line names my H used for various blogs, I easily found them through a basic internet search. Heck, your D10 could even do it. Just be careful.

Now it seems that my decision is made for me. I either keep defending myself with same judge who doesn't care about kids,same lawyer, same bad deal, or I get a new lawyer and a new judge and go to trial.

Why is getting a new lawyer tied to going to trial? Why can't you just switch lawyers and address the outstanding issues? Perhaps I missed a few posts about this along the way.

Looking forward to the 26th. On that day, let's post on my thread if there are any problems with getting together (my plane is late, for example). It will be easy to check the forum from my phone rather than leave a note at the venue.


Grace