So First, I am on moderation. I didn't know what that meant until Job posted.
But I'll share more details because this is just so weird to me. Every day we wake up, together we get the kids ready for the bus. I leave for work and she gives me a hug and a kiss on the way out the door. When I get home from work we share about how our day went, we make dinner together, we put the kids to bed, and then we either have a nightcap and talk or watch something on NetFlix that we both enjoy.
If her back is stiff I might give her a massage as we watch TV. We go to bed together at the same time. She gives me a kiss good night, she says that she loves me, and then the wall goes up and from there, there is no touching. It's like we are sleeping in different beds, but we're in the same bed. Then we wake up and do it over again.
I'd say every third week or so we go on a date night. We have a good time. From an outside perspective, anyone would say everything is fine. We don't fight and we don't argue.
But then one of two things occurs. We go to marriage counseling and she says she doesn't want to work on our marriage, she says how things have to change, and she basically blames me for everything that is wrong.
Or I make a mistake. I'd say once every six weeks or so I'll do something that she sees as unforgivable. These acts would normally be filed under the marital misunderstanding column but in my life, they are reasons for divorce.
And then this goes down the path of "We've been working on our marriage for four years (which isn't true, the affair didn't even end until three years ago, but I digress) and nothing has changed. I'm sick of it. I'm done."
Scotty B I lived your life for almost the same amount of time. What do you mean your done? Are you going to file? You may have one other option. Get a life like a mad man. Go out every night and be mysterious about it. I can explain more if need be.
So, my question is this...why is she still staying in the marriage and I am assuming she is still living under the same roof w/you? The changes you made, have they become a part of your daily life or did you just make those changes to please her? If the latter is the case, then make changes that you know you need to make and make them a part of your life on a permanent basis.
When I asked her why (i know, mistake) she said for the children and because she is afraid. She also said she had no hope for us. She is still living under the same roof.
Changes I have made have been like helping out around the house more (she was a stay at home mom for years and I made the mistake of expecting the home to be her job). I've also worked to be more supportive, less defensive, never critical or contemptuous. I think these are all good things for me to do, so I did change for her but it was also for me to be a better person.
She has described me as relentless in the past. I do like the fact that I am a go-getter and never give up on anything, but I'm trying to develop some other traits that I also see as personal growth, and not necessarily for her. I'm working to be more soft-hearted, gracious, moderate, sensitive, and humble.
Can’t I just tell her to snap out of it and appreciate the life she has? I can’t hardly take it any more.
If that worked then none of us would be here, and this site probably wouldn't exist Your W isn't who you remember marrying. You can't reason with her, or negotiate or bargain or manipulate or coerce her back into the M. You can't "nice" her back. You can't "mean" her back. You can't do a single thing to help her come back, but you can do a lot to block her from coming back. Your goal is to keep yourself from blocking her way back. As the saying here goes, to keep the way home paved and smooth. But you can't drive her down that road, she has to make that choice.
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We’ve been in counseling for 3 years now, since the affair. We’re on our second counselor.
I agree with R2C, probably high time to quit going. Go to IC if it helps you, but stop the MC. It's pretty clear it hasn't helped (it never does after BD) and your sitch has in fact continued to deteriorate to the point where sex is now off the table.
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but my wife just doesn’t seem to want to appreciate the truth of what she has.
Her "truth" is different than yours. She thinks she's in a terrible, cold, unloving relationship. And she thinks it's all your fault. You see another "truth"- a nice home, healthy kids, a future together. You've got to accept that her truth is her reality though. At your ages I'd say it's quite possible she's going through MLC or early menopause or both. This will affect the way she thinks. She is in a fog, and sees nothing good about the M but lots bad. She's convinced that escaping the M is her path to happiness. You have to let her go on this journey of discovery. Detach, leave her alone, focus on you and the kids. Somewhere down the road she may decide she wants the M after all, but it's going to take a long time for her to get there. If she's in MLC it could be years.
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Over the years as she has brought up complaints and issues I’ve worked to change and she would agree that i have but then it’s on to the next “major issue” in our relationship.
This is very typical with WAS's. It's like a shooting gallery, you shoot one target down and two more pop up. You CAN'T PLACATE HER back into the M. I know it's tempting to try and it never, ever works. It just makes the WAS lose all respect for the LBS.
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A consistent one is that i don’t “get” her or that we don’t have an emotional connection. Now this seems to be the target, that I need to feel more and share my feelings to improve communication.
She's not telling you this so you can fix it. She's explaining to you why in her eyes the M is over. Again, you can't "placate" her back to the M. You've got to earn respect back before she'll find you attractive again. You do that by detaching, letting her go, working on yourself, being an alpha again. I bet you've been trying to show her how great a husband you are by taking out the trash, doing laundry, cooking, cleaning, helping more with the kids? All beta behavior. Beta is fine in combination with alpha, but most men lose their alpha traits in marriage and go full beta. Then when they get BD'd they double down on beta behavior, exactly the opposite of what they should be doing to attract her back.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Most guys suck at this. It is a learned behavior. AnotherStander gives great advise on this.
My take:
1) Listen to understand how she is feeling 2) Validate her feelings 3) make it all about her and how she is feeling. 4) How does she FEEL when she is interacting with you. Change the way you interact and it will change the way she FEELS. You want her to have "good" feelings.
Thank you and yes, couldn't have said it better Validating is the one thing we can do that doesn't hurt our sitches and usually help them. It's a neutral act, it's not confrontational. It's not even agreeing, just acknowledging that her feelings, no matter how crazy they may seem, are valid.
Scott, just hopping in to tell you to keep DBing. GAL like crazy. Continue self-improving through 180s. Work on detaching, removing all pursuit and pressure. And no, as AS said, certainly DO NOT tell her to snap out of it and appreciate her family. That is pressure. That will drive her further away.
You have R2C and AS engaged. Listen to these two gentlemen to give you the best chance to save you MR. That is not a guarantee. What is a guarantee by listening to vets like AS and R2C is that you will save yourself.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Scotty B I lived your life for almost the same amount of time. What do you mean you're done? Are you going to file? You may have one other option. Get a life like a mad man. Go out every night and be mysterious about it. I can explain more if need be.
I'm not going to file. I'm just exhausted. I am so worn down and tired. As I said, I just want her to snap out of it. We have a good life, she has a good husband, its exhausting to live this way. I feel like the giving tree.
With the kids, it's hard to go out and such. The kids have activities Mon-Thurs and games on Saturday and Sunday. I like spending time with her, so it's hard to leave. And I don't want to make things worse.
Her "truth" is different than yours. She thinks she's in a terrible, cold, unloving relationship. And she thinks it's all your fault. You see another "truth"- a nice home, healthy kids, a future together. You've got to accept that her truth is her reality though.
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This is very typical with WAS's. It's like a shooting gallery, you shoot one target down and two more pop up. You CAN'T PLACATE HER back into the M. I know it's tempting to try and it never, ever works. It just makes the WAS lose all respect for the LBS.
Scott - This advice is absolute gold, and AS the whack-a-mole analogy is perfect. Feelings = Truth. When your W communicates with you, think "feelings feelings feelings." This is harder than it may appear when she's giving you reasons things aren't working, or things she thinks you should change. The more you seek reasons from your W, the more you will be confused because she will keep throwing them out there. This is about emotional thinking, not rational thinking. Asking for reasons does not work.
I lived this life with my W for about a year before BD. We went to MC. She wanted more help around the house, less pressure for physical affection. I did more chores, I came home on time from work, I helped with the kids, I gave her more breaks from the kids (weekends to see friends/family), I stopped all pursuit. Absolutely nothing changed. She didn't change anything. We didn't actually *work* on the MR. When I pressed to work on the MR, she changed her reasons to other things.
Understand she is fighting with her internal feelings. Let her work that out.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by ScottB
A consistent one is that i don’t “get” her or that we don’t have an emotional connection. Now this seems to be the target, that I need to feel more and share my feelings to improve communication.
She's not telling you this so you can fix it. She's explaining to you why in her eyes the M is over. Again, you can't "placate" her back to the M. You've got to earn respect back before she'll find you attractive again. You do that by detaching, letting her go, working on yourself, being an alpha again. I bet you've been trying to show her how great a husband you are by taking out the trash, doing laundry, cooking, cleaning, helping more with the kids? All beta behavior. Beta is fine in combination with alpha, but most men lose their alpha traits in marriage and go full beta. Then when they get BD'd they double down on beta behavior, exactly the opposite of what they should be doing to attract her back.
Again, this is gold advice. I got the "emotional connection" reason as well. It is a "catch-all" bucket for pretty much anything.
Part of the advantage of detaching is it will give you time and space also. A lot of us early on get stuck on 180s, and think we should 180 everything because our W is telling us to do that.
You need that to sort out what is your truth. How many of your W's complaints are valid things you should 180 on? And how many of them are just her feelings and complaints?
Finally, I have to agree on stopping MC. She will probably accuse you of not wanting to work on the MR by doing so. Again, you can't placate her back.
I identify with a lot of your story... sorry you are here.
I'm not going to file. I'm just exhausted. I am so worn down and tired. As I said, I just want her to snap out of it. We have a good life, she has a good husband, its exhausting to live this way. I feel like the giving tree.
It is absolutely emotionally exhausting to be in limbo day after day.
A lot of DB'ing is about detaching (lovingly) so you aren't at the mercy of her feelings. Come here to vent by all means. Letting her go also involves letting go of your expectations. She does not view your life this way, fair or not.
Originally Posted by ScottB
With the kids, it's hard to go out and such. The kids have activities Mon-Thurs and games on Saturday and Sunday. I like spending time with her, so it's hard to leave. And I don't want to make things worse.
I hear you on this one. It's really hard to get out of the house when you have kids.
However...GAL can be simple, it doesn't have to mean going out mysteriously. Rather than spending time with your W one night, work on a hobby, read a book, do something you like to do at home. Fill your own emotional buckets with things you like. You say you like spending time with your W... is it really that enjoyable to spend time with her? I also enjoyed spending time with my W... we would watch TV every night, sometimes have a cocktail, crack jokes... all while we sat on separate couches, never discussed anything of importance, went to bed at different times. I was a really great friend.
Your W isn't who you remember marrying. You can't reason with her, or negotiate or bargain or manipulate or coerce her back into the M. You can't "nice" her back. You can't "mean" her back. You can't do a single thing to help her come back, but you can do a lot to block her from coming back. Your goal is to keep yourself from blocking her way back. As the saying here goes, to keep the way home paved and smooth. But you can't drive her down that road, she has to make that choice.
Validating is the one thing we can do that doesn't hurt our sitches and usually help them. It's a neutral act, it's not confrontational. It's not even agreeing, just acknowledging that her feelings, no matter how crazy they may seem, are valid.