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Hi everyone, been lurking for a few weeks now and I have to say this forum has been the source of great comfort for me. My wife dropped the bomb on me 6 weeks ago. My initial reaction was to detach from her but after a couple of days my emotions got the best of me and rationalizing and pleading occurred for 3 days. With the help of this forum I have managed to detach pretty well, and she seems to be in full blown replay mode. She still exhibits some anger towards me although frequency is much less. She is making much more small talk with me as I get better at detachment, and occasionally I see some signs of depression. So that's my intro and where I am at.

I have a question I hope I can get some feedback and let me just say I am committed to being her lighthouse.

1. My spouse has removed her wedding ring, thoughts and experiences on whether I should remove mine? The last thing I want to do is set her back, but at some point my physical needs will have to be met and having a wedding ring on will not help.
I hope this question doesn't sound petty or make me seem shallow but if I don't engage in casual sex from time to time I'm sure I will not be able to be there for her as long. Thank you for listening.
Oh let me just say we are still living under the same roof and she considers us temporarily separated free to do as we wish.

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Welcome to the MLC Forum. I am posting Cadet's Welcome Thread. Please read all of the links and visit threads created by others as you will find plenty of wonderful advice, etc.

Welcome to this board.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy book by MWD,
Divorce Busting is also an excellent book.
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)

I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read.

This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.

I would start with the going dark link.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post50956

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289#Post2537289

Resources thread(last post only)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2592296#Post2592296

Things you should know as the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2701017#Post2701017

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Doormat Tactics
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1942444#Post1942444

Standing vs leaving
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1966340&page=1

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

Musings from AmyC
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2253741#Post2253741

MLC Signs
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2177869#Post2177869

The Final Stages Withdrawal to Acceptance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2074403&page=1

WAS showing you positive signs? WAIT - READ THIS!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2772942#Post2772942

Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.

I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources.
You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.

Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!

Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.

I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations.
Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure.
You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.

Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you!
Start your homework assignments.
Something to DO while you are on moderation.
GAL.
Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath.
In general take care of your self first.

Detach the single most important thing to DO.

Your H/W has given you a gift
THE GIFT OF TIME
use it wisely

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


Me-65, D32,S31


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Good Morning Remo

I’m sorry you are in the situation you are. It’s good that you found this place, there is much hard earned wisdom and compassionate people here.

I do have some thoughts to share and would like to tailor them to your situation better.

How old are you and wife? How long married? Kids? Ages?

I look forward to talking with you.

DnJ


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Hi DnJ,
Thanks for the warm reception.

I'm 47 and my wife is 42 we have four kids between the ages of 14 and 7. We have been married 16 years and together for 20.

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Thank you for the homework job. I discovered that post already and weeks agog and it has given me so much strength.

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Hi Remo. Welcome. I've read your post twice; what is the 'bomb' W dropped? What did she say or do specifically? Did something happen, an event, a change in life, that that may have triggered her to react a certain way? (kids? family members? career? ) Is it possible she is just burnt out?

Regarding rings, that's a personal choice I'd say. I still wear my band & my engagement ring occasionally. I wear them no differently I guess. (My H took his off before bd, said "it was too tight, bothered him". He would always wear it when we went out, then I'd remind him if he forgot. Then I stopped reminding him, as I thought he knews or should know, & I had expressed my disappointment when he didn't wear it). Sorry to blah blah on.... personal choice.

As for sex? You don’t have to have casual sex as your first choice. Right? Take care of yourself, by yourself. That's my opinion. Do you have an open marriage where under 'normal' circumstances this would be okay? Think about your actions and consequences. Just my opinion.

Off topic: location/ time of year ? How were things last year? (Ontario Canada or other?)

Keep posting .


~Never Give Up ~
2019
Mar BD
June BD
Dec Aow/xgf
2020
Jan he wants D
Feb he flys2 ow
Mar returns stuck here C19 Lckdwn
Apr he leaves for work until Nov
Oct D FINAL 2020
Living MY Happiest Life Ever
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Ps- I read your post a 3rd time, but couldn't edit as it timed out.

As you stated, you want to be her Lighthouse. And she sees you as separated, free to do your own thing. (Your W is under the same roof, but out of your room). Well, again, in my opinion, if you're wanting to be her Lighthouse, I'd keep the ring on to show her that you are there for her; it's a symbol. And again, in my opinion, take care of your own sexual needs. You don’t need to complicate the situation by turning the lights off in the lighthouse. Even if she says, do as you like, sounds like she's giving herself permission to step away from the Lighthouse and get in the water. You following me? What have you done for yourself to be the best version of you? Concentrate on that. Being physical, working out, will help release some tension. And, you can still be the Lighthouse. Stay on track.

The night my H did his BD, I took my band off, when he wasn't looking. We had sex that night, in the morning he said, "I don't want to lose you". I had him put my band back on my finger, as a symbol. Later that night he said, I haven't changed how I feel (unhappy)... more bombs basically. But I kept my ring on because I have chosen to stand up to this "challenge" in my life. I want to be his Lighthouse. He knows where I stand.

Keep posting.


~Never Give Up ~
2019
Mar BD
June BD
Dec Aow/xgf
2020
Jan he wants D
Feb he flys2 ow
Mar returns stuck here C19 Lckdwn
Apr he leaves for work until Nov
Oct D FINAL 2020
Living MY Happiest Life Ever
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Thank you for the replies so far. Over the last year. Endlessly picking fights with me and blame for everything,excessively working out, fretting over her appearance (even half sarcastically talking boob job) new group of friends, out dancing least twice a week, listening to new current music, talking about getting a cool car, saying I kept her down, saying the freedom she has now had to be taken from me, responsibilities to the kids is adequate but no where close what it used to be, new wardrobe, leave behind old friends, despising younger women for their looks.

When she dropped the bomb she said she needed space for personal growth. Later she injected that as far as she is concerned we are temporally separated and any going ons at this point is not cheating. She said things like her sh.t cup is full and she is tired of taking care of everyone, it's her time for fun and does not feel guilty for being completely selfish. She said she has the right to not want the life she has anymore and she is going to change it. During the bomb drop she baited me with hurtful words trying to get the whole thing to blow up. She also said "a year or two ago I was her for choice for everything in her life, now she could care less" . Also she stated she may regret her decision, and in five years come back to me but understands that the door may have closed and is O.K. with that. We did not have an open relationship and before this we were in deeply in love.

I think her 40th bday may have been a switch, she started working out shortly after, during that time I did notice some moodiness and some lashing out at me. All of our discussions are centered around her and no effort to find anything out about me. I am in Ontario Canada btw.

Yeah I think the ring will stay on. As far as the sex goes I am nowhere ready to engage in that however if this process can take years to play out at some point I may have had enough, and I'm sure my I will reach that point sooner if I remain celibate. Of course having sex with another women may lead to heavy guilt on me and may doom the marriage.

As far as taking care of myself I have joined a gym and started dance lessons. I'm pretty well centered at this point and detached and have been perfectly civil with her during this process. Last couple of days it would seem my old wife is back, she initiates conversation, laughs at my jokes that I make to the kids and such. I do understand that this good behavior means nothing though.

Once again thank you for sharing your deeply personal experiences with me, it means a lot. Apologies for grammar and punctuation as I am typing this on my phone so wife won't accidentally see.

Last edited by job; 11/18/19 02:06 PM. Reason: added space between paragraphs
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Wow. Sounds like she's really going through something. I'm no expert, just here to support others and give my opinion on things. But yeah, it sure sounds like a MLC. Needed time for personal growth, rings are off and she's magically separated temporarily. Free to do as WE wish/ any going ons at this point is not cheating. Sounds like she's trying to turn back time too. (Out with the old, in with the new). A few questions: Where did she make these new friends? How do you react to her going out? What's that like? What does she do for work? Do you suspect any cheating? What are the sleeping arrangements (under the same roof)? And just curious, how was your Thanksgiving? (Oct.14)

Here's my take. She tired of taking care of everyone, wants freedom/space for personal growth . She's getting out there and doing her thing/having her fun. You've taken steps in the right direction and are also getting out there too, taking care of yourself. Keep doing what you're doing. And be the best dadyou can be.

I'm sorry you're going through this. Sorry she's going through this like she is. Don't take the bait of anything goes is okay. Are you okay with it? IMO, don't complicate things by cheating. It's cheating. Take things day by day, not looking too far ahead. If you have to take things into your own hands, do that. I'm being literal. No shame; it's natural and no one gets hurt.

Keep posting and be good to yourself


~Never Give Up ~
2019
Mar BD
June BD
Dec Aow/xgf
2020
Jan he wants D
Feb he flys2 ow
Mar returns stuck here C19 Lckdwn
Apr he leaves for work until Nov
Oct D FINAL 2020
Living MY Happiest Life Ever
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Sounds like your W is going through some tough stuff and you're bearing the brunt of this. Sorry to hear about the ups and downs; must be very tiring emotionally.

I would keep the civility consistent, and it's good that you're out GALing like gym and dance lessons. Just look after yourself and don't take any bait. One of the points in the welcome post is "don't believe everything they say or do."

Ring-or-no-ring is a tricky one. For me, I have kept my ring on in the usual spot, even though my D is going to be finalised in the next 2 months or so. My W would always forget to wear hers (which upset me but I never brought it up), and certainly hasn't worn them for the last 6 months. I did try not wearing it but it didn't feel right. I've just kept it on for now, but not sure what I'll do in 2 months' time, whether I'll move it to my right hand or not wear it at all. I don't really want to get rid of it or sell it though.

Post regularly and everyone here will help where they can.


Me - 36, W - 32
No kids
T - 8 yr, M - 3 yr
Discovery - 14 May 2019
S - 25 May 2019 & D bomb - 29 July 2019
D & House sale final - Feb 2020
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Good Morning Remo

I have four kids as well; three sons ages 22, 21, & 18, and a daughter age 17.

Thank you filling in some of the blanks. A 20 year relationship and then a BD is quite a shock to recover from; it takes some time. I’m glad you see the value in detachment and not to worry we all plead and beg at first. And we all get the same noneffective results.

The removing or wearing of the wedding ring is a personal choice. Either way may or may not affect your MLCer wife. That advice is truth of everything. One doesn’t completely know what affect out actions will have on the MLCer or anyone for that matter. That is why everything you do, do it for you. That way no matter what happens, how this all turns out, you will be alright.

You do not want to manipulate her path. I know it is tempting to try to speed things along, at best your efforts would be neutral, the most common and most likely result would be to prolong her journey. She has lots to figure out, and needs space and time. And she will take it.

That is the perspective of advice and suggestions. They are for you and your healing; and give the best chance for your marriage/relationship.

Today’s post on my thread started as a response to you. It got rather deep, rather fast. smile

Your W has unilaterally decided that you two are in house separated and free to do as each of you wish. And that no longer qualifies as cheating. Really?!? You can see how manipulative she is being - right?

The vast majority of MLCers have affairs (sorry). It means nothing to them. The MLCer is running from their pain and sex is fun and therefore viewed as happiness. Of course they are wrong, happiness comes from within one’s self not externally. However, that realization is quite some time from her finding it.

Affair partners are a symptom of MLC. Do not give them any power or hold over you.

With what your W has said, it is pretty likely she is in an affair - emotional or physical. She has given permission for you cheat on your marriage and vows. You were not in an open marriage before, do not start one now.

When she made this decision what did you say? How are you approaching this?

I’m guessing you were meek and timid about rocking the boat. It’s ok.

Advice for you. Do not be a doormat. She can have an affair, she do whatever she wants. However, she cannot treat you like a doormat and walk all over you - unless you allow it.

Find a time to reopen this discussion and let her know your views. By the way, posting here first answers to her questions or what you are planning to say to her allows your to get feedback and tune your response. People here have really good ideas, seek them out.

So reopen this topic and let her know that you do not agree with her. You see either of you having a relationship outside of the marriage as cheating. And if she is cheating you do not want her in the master bedroom.

We do require more information from you as to what and where you actually are to give a more thoughtful and reasoned response. Things like how to get her to leave the master bedroom for example.

That might sound wrong. That’s ok. This is counterintuitive, it feels wrong, it goes against everything you’ve previous done to resolve past conflicts and had success with. Remember she is in crisis, she is not the same person you know. An MLCer is ruled by their emotions in everything they do. Attempting to reason or rationalize with them is pointless.

She is looking to leave. She needs to taste that. To see what that means. Become a roommate - kind not mean, but a roommate relationship.

With that in mind I would take off your wedding ring. She doesn’t want to be faithful. She mentioned that maybe in five years she would feel different, maybe regret things. You can see her emotions at work, and she is buying time, leading you along, trying to keep you as Plan B. Do not be her Plan B. You are Plan A.

This is difficult, she needs to come to conclusions and decision on her own. Space and time to see and figure stuff out. You control you and your actions. Boundaries where warranted. If she is with someone else she’s not going to be with you. That is your mindset.

Focus on you and your kids.

As for casual sex. No!

This is cheating. You didn’t partake before, do not start now. Keep your side of the street clean, and be true to yourself and your values.

You want to be a lighthouse. Then be a lighthouse.

Again, it’s ok. Use the board to vent, to ask questions, gain insights, explore different ideas before you implement them. That is wise use of your time. Be patient.

Something you need to do. Get tested for STD. Yeah, I know. Not a nice feeling. Just about everyone here goes through this. Make sure you are healthy, and realize the possible risks now.

Your description of her past year’s behaviours rings true for MLC. She is running from her age, attempting to relive her youth. Read other’s stories; it is amazing how eerily similar MLCers are.

Remo, you are just at the start of your path. Do take care of yourself, the gym and dance classes are a great ideas. As well as ensuring she does not find and read any of this advice. She will see it in the worse possible light. To an MLCer there is nothing wrong with them - it’s everyone else’s fault or problem.

Focus on you and your kids, and keep working towards detachment.

Stay strong.

DnJ


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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I still struggle with this question. I have decided to keep mine on. I am standing. It is a symbol of our marriage. As far as forming a new relationship, my therapist says it best: "do you really want to bring another human being into this mess?" There was a time not to long ago when I might have said I don't care if I hurt another human being. I want what I want. That isn't the case anymore. I would never want to hurt anyone else in this mess. Since I have decided to stand, I would form a relationship knowing that one day I would throw them to the side if the chance came to reconcile with w. Not for me. Wait... Is that growth? Lol

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Wow, lots to think about! I'm so freaking happy I found this board!

To answer some of the questions,

Thanksgiving was civil, I usually do the cooking and nothing Dramatic happened.

When my wife dropped the bomb it was her suggestion that we sleep in different rooms, with us alternating in the basement. I insisted that I would sleep in the basement so if the kids asked I could blame it on me snoring.

When she spoke of anything going forward would not be considered cheating, my response was; "easy for you to say because you know I don't have a cheating bone in my body and would never take you up on that offer"

Is it wise to try to engage the MLCer to engage in conversations about themselves? Such as "how was your day?" Talk. About events that they have keen interest in...just regular small talk with the focus being on them.

Thanks again everyone.

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Just wanted to add that on occasion I do ask how her day was and it is usually met quite positively by her. Sometimes she talks for a few minutes venting if it has been a trying day. On the other side, I occasionally get a short answer as well, I never pursue further questioning after that.
Thoughts?

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Hi AT, sounds like you're handling things well. I'd say carry on as you are, not pushing things.

Again, I'm not a vet at this. Any thoughts vets?


~Never Give Up ~
2019
Mar BD
June BD
Dec Aow/xgf
2020
Jan he wants D
Feb he flys2 ow
Mar returns stuck here C19 Lckdwn
Apr he leaves for work until Nov
Oct D FINAL 2020
Living MY Happiest Life Ever
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Good Morning Aurora

Conversing is fine. Letting her talk/vent about her day is good stuff.

Just remember not to push her or pressure her, let her share what she wants. You are to be the safe place for her to land.

Watch out for relationship talks - even ones she brings up - especially those. Until she is demonstrating consistency in her behaviour towards you, kids, sleeping arrangements, life, etc... she isn’t ready to delve into that. For the time being R talks are more of a trap and used to further a crisis person’s justifications for their actions.

If you pay attention and let her talk she will say lots. As she feels more and more secure she will let slip more and more. Stay non judgement - a tough task, depending on what may be revealed.

Remember - do more of what works and less of what doesn’t.

You’ve mentioned that as you’ve detached more she is opening up more. Good stuff.

Keep moving forward and see what happens. I am sure more will be revealed in time. Dig for patience and do your inner work.

Inner work. That’s the successful path. Be the best man you will be.

DnJ


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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I don't have an answer for the Q regarding sex. But with the ring- my experience was that H took it off first way before BD and he gave me a believable reason (at the time). And after BD I felt extremely hurt and vengeful so I took mine off after a few days as well. But in the last R talk that I initiated, H actually said he wants to file, and commented that I took the ring off and said the ring was his glimmer of hope in us. Basically blaming me for throwing our hope away. Which totally didn't make sense to me because he's had his ring off this whole time!! Which I just added to the many things on the list of things I cannot reason with him right now. But after the D word I actually chose to put my ring back on, and I told H that I'm still in this, I'm not giving up. I said that I will take it off when our M is truly over.


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Hi Aurora

Sorry you're here mate. I just thought I'd chime in and offer some support for you. Some of the aspects of your sitch rang a bell with mine, especially regarding this happening on a milestone birthday. Is your W into horoscopes or numerology by any chance?

It sounds like your W is a lot less aggressive than mine though and I'm glad to hear her anger has abated. I found I could tell how bad it was by looking into my XW's eyes. Do not fight the anger if it comes out of her, just do all you can to validate her feelings (no matter how crazy they are), and leave if it gets bad. Don't try to defend or justify either. Just listen.

FWIW I took my ring off after a few weeks. I didnt want to, but I had this weird feeling of embarassment and shame, like XW was scorning me for leaving it on after the hammerings she gave me.

Anyway, good luck mate.


Me: early 40's
XW: nearly 50
T: 15
M: 5
BD: Jan 19
S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
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Hi everyone,

First let me just say thank you to everyone who has been passing along their words of wisdom not only to me but to all those in need. In time as things progress in my sitch I too hope to pass along some words of encouragement as well.

My sitch is the same at home, generally speaking we are civil but a couple times a day the wife gives me a couple jabs that I take in stride. With four kids and living under the same roof we have a lot to do with another even if it is mainly business with some small talk initiated by her, NO R TALK.

My wife has been talking about getting away for a weekend by herself (whether it's with friends or with a OM I don't know and don't care)there are some small logistics that would have to be worked out with me. I can easily accommodate this so she can go, and to be honest I think I would like to have leave for a spell. From what I have learned on this board, at the end of the day she is going to go if she wants to anyway. I am wondering if it would be wise to offer my help because of how she may perceive it. I figure one of the following scenarios would occur;

1) She takes my offer and of course expresses NO gratitude and has a weekend to reflect or possibly go deeper into the tunnel.

2) she responds negatively to my offer because she doesn't need my help. I somehow think this is the least likeLy to happen.

3) she sees me as a doormat

4) she sees me as being OK with her replay behavior

5) if I make sure to convey to her that I want her to leave so I can have a fun weekend with the kids(which is the truth) perhaps I come across as GALing.

Your thoughts are most welcomed,

Thank you in advance,

AuroraTrout

Last edited by job; 11/24/19 08:44 PM. Reason: added space between paragraphs
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Forgot a sixth scenario:

6) could she view it as supportive

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Hi AT. I'd say a bit of 5 & 6.


~Never Give Up ~
2019
Mar BD
June BD
Dec Aow/xgf
2020
Jan he wants D
Feb he flys2 ow
Mar returns stuck here C19 Lckdwn
Apr he leaves for work until Nov
Oct D FINAL 2020
Living MY Happiest Life Ever
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Hello A

A person in crisis will go with or without the LBS’s help. Just think - a Mom literally stepping over her crying children as she leaves her house to go live with OM. That is the lack of empathy a MLCer exhibits. Self centred and total indifference. Me and my kids had a front row seat to that.

How she will perceive your help. It depends, and it will change. She is ruled by emotions and they are not static or stable.

A guess - she see it as you being alright with her cheating proposition. You are enabling her running behaviours, although she doesn’t see them as running.

There would be little to no gratitude, well sincere gratitude, she might have a facade. In fact I would suspect she would harbour resentment towards you for your role in this. That probably makes little sense to you - because you are thinking rationally. She is not. She is irrational.

She at some point will be looking for anything to blame you for, get mad at, and stomp and storm out. For an hour, for a night, for a weekend, for whatever. Stay on the sidelines and do not get in the line of fire.

She is a big girl. If she wants to go away for the weekend, she can figure it out. Your help would be to look after the kids.

You cannot stop her and you seem to realize that and are not putting boulders in her way. However, you need not help her leave. There are boulders and bumps in life and she needs to handle those on her own.

So probability of each:

#1 - She’d take your offer with no reflection. She’s looking to get away not reflect.

#2 - I do think she would respond negatively, maybe not outwardly but internally. She doesn’t want, or wants to need your help.

#3 - Yeah. Kind of.

#4 - Oh yes! You being ok with her running is not the thing you want to project IMHO. Try - You are ok with her being in control of her life. And she has to live with the consequences of her actions - boundaries for example.

#5 - Nope. Trying to convince her that you want her to leave so you can have fun with the kids, doesn’t look like GAL. Instead - just go have fun with the kids. Invite her along and if she doesn’t want to come, fine. Get a Life for you and your children. GAL is not dependant on her actions.

#6 - Not likely. She doesn’t feel she is wrong or broken. You can be supportive but she will not view it that way.


Her perceptions, how she might perceive your actions is a good question. Remember she is hurt and emotional. She is looking for someone to blame, looking for justification. You support her by giving space and time. She needs to grow up and she can’t do that if you help her.

Now, that doesn’t mean never help her. If she is in serious trouble, help, just like you would anyone. If she is doing things as a family and asking for help, another fine time. It’s the MLC stuff. She is going to make some very poor decisions and she needs to be accountable for those. She needs to own them and grow from them. Your role in that is to stay out of it unless it impacts or affects you and the kids. And then it is not to change her, it is to protect you and the kids.

Anyhow, that my take on things, from what I’ve seen and experienced.

DnJ


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Hi everyone.
Last couple of weeks my wife and I have been co-parenting very well and her anger towards has been been kept in check. However her replay mode has strengthened to going out four times a week salsa dancing even though she seems to think it's at max twice a week when confronted by her daughter. Nonetheless things have been diplomatic with even some laughs. Yesterday she wanted to have an R talk, specifically what a D would look like as far as living arrangements and she also wants to let the kids know we are separated after Christmas. She seemed a tiny bit emotional while talking and when I asked her if she was sure if a D is what she wanted because she has never actually said the word (except saying she wants a trial separation) she just said well I don't see us having more than just a platonic relationship. I asked her one more time a little bit later and she said well she wants to tell the kids so... Just found it curious she couldn't say the words.

We talked about listing the house in the spring, so that looks like it may occur but she has not formerly suggested starting divorce proceedings.

The convo was civil except when I reacted to her re-writing history on how we arrived here. I quickly caught myself and tampered down any flare ups.

I suggested to her I take full responsibility for my part in this but I also told her we would have arrived here regardless of any circumstances. I said her growth would have happened regardless and that perhaps with these changes she should bugger off for a month and go to Europe to finnish her growth unimpeded. She seemed to like the idea but was worried that splitting up when she comes back would paint as the bad guy with the kids.

Going forward I want to propose to her that the living arrangements that I would like to see happen after the sale of our house is as follows; I want to rent a larger house for me and the four kids, that way she can rent a smaller one bedroom condo and help me with the kids as she pleases at my place. My rationale for this is I really do not want to have the kids go back and forth and have already expressed to her my feelings about that. She is perfectly happy doing 50/50 custody and I suspect would be happier doing less. Thoughts on proposing that to her? Not looking for legal opinions but rather how that may be received.

Of note, she walks around with music on her phone constantly even when she goes to the washroom, walks out to the car or takes out the trash. She falls asleep with it and instantly cranks it up upon opening her eyes in the morning. I figure she has to be distracted or else depression sets in.

Thank you and sorry for grammar and spelling , I hate typing on my phone but have to for security reasons.

Last edited by job; 12/11/19 11:20 PM. Reason: added space between paragraphs
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I plan to continue wearing my wedding band as a personal choice. Until we are divorced, I am still married in my opinion. Also, I am detaching, 180ing, etc but think the ring sends the message to H that all is not lost. H still wears his wedding band too but the BD was just a month ago. In time he may decide to take it off. I feel like he is taking baby steps.

FWIW, we still live under the same roof but in separate parts of the house. H seems to be having an affair, staying out all night until 10 - 11 a.m. some nights. He no longer tells me where he is going or when he will return. So far he does not stay more than 24 hours. I think this is only for the sake of our young children.

Last edited by HesAble; 12/12/19 05:05 PM.

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Since you have MLCers living under the same roof, I am going to suggest that you look up HaWho's threads. She had a man/child living under her roof for a long time and he finally left in the last year or so. She went through h@ll, but she came out the other side. She also has two sons still living in the home.

I am very, very proud of the way that she handled her situation. You might pick up some pointers from her threads.


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Thank you for that job.

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Hi everyone,
I need some advice please, but a quick update first.
Over the last few weeks my wife seems to be having some touch and go stretches that last 4-5 days, she has brought me coffee, asked how may day was (on 3 occasions) and even asked if I wanted to run some chores with her and the kids. Her replay has settled down a little bit as well and she has reconnected with our dog (she loves dogs) and her mothering is better as well.
These stretches always end with a couple of days of monster then back to touch and go.
These monster episodes always initiate her starting an R talk, one the issues she brings up is she wants to tell the kids about our separation. My kids are 8, 11, 12, and fourteen. The younger two I do not believe realize what is going on, while the older two (from an overheard convo) believe the wife and I are having money issues and is the reason why I am sleeping in the basement. I have been firm in not delivering the news to the kids until we are far enough away from the holidays and birthdays. I have expressed to my wife very diplomatically that while our situation is somewhat civil it is not mutual. I explained to her that when she is talking to friends about this that I hope she owns the situation and explains she left me and does not sugar coat things. Her reaction to this was a quite calm.

So my first question is: When we tell the kids should we be 100% honest and I should expect my wife to state that she is leaving me? Or do I generalize things more with so it seems like a mutual decision and maybe easier for the kids to swallow?


My second issue deals with sale of our house. Initially my wife was set on selling in the spring. I had expressed to her that my biggest concern is the kids being shuffled back and fourth between us. I suggested I would rent a bigger house that would have an extra room for her to stay when it was her turn with the kids and of course I would make myself scarce during her time. This way the kids at least are fixed and she would be doing the back and forth. Well, on a few occasions she has been trying to figure out a way we can stay as "roomates" in our current house as a trial for maybe a year or so. The last time she mentioned it she said if we sell the house that its such an irreversible move.She tried to clarify by saying not as it relates to us but in the sense we would have to pay realtor commissions, legal fees and moving costs that we would never get back. Seems to me the future is beginning to seem a little bit scary for her and I get the sense she may be cake eating here by trying to stay at home.

So my question is: I do not want to pursue the sale of house because its the best thing for the kids to not move. However, if my wife is cake eating how do I express to her that I am not OK with that, without causing a huge fight?
Lastly, let me just say while I do find tremendous relief from my wife 's touch and goes I have read enough posts from the wise members on this board to keep my expectations at zero, and thats what Im trying to do.
Thanks in Advance.

Last edited by AuroraTr; 01/11/20 02:44 PM.
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Hi

I dont know that much about your full situation

But

If at all possible, I would leave the separation as neutral as possible

WE/Mom needs some time to figure things out
Sometimes M have bumps...
no ones fault..Its not their fault
We both love you very much, and I am hopefull we can work it out

It will bring up feelings probably in all of them, especially in the older 3 kids
I would then listen to them with a loving heart and offer counseling as needed

I had to spend many hours listening to my then D age 11...She took it hard

I always kept it neutral,
in the later years I also said things like Dad is not well.
once it became very clear that he was indeed in MLC and sick
But I never said a bad word about him to my kids
Today they are fully grown, and very awesome people.

Over time they will really know the absolute truth, so I would be honest but not brutally

The house, I would suggest if at all possible for the stability of the kids to keep
She should be the one who moves especially until D if it comes to that
If she wants to live there, then that is something you will have to deal with

I think if the LBS stays in the home, the chances may be better for restoring the M, but not always as in Ha Whos thread
I dont know your full situation so this may not be possible

The idea of her being a room mates may be difficult especially for you..
But Im sure you can do it and there are others here who still live with the MLCer
as long as you know, this will take a lot of time whether she moves or stays if it is MLC and she may get worse either way in replay

maybe if you want to give this more time, avoid the sale of the house talk for now..
If she wants to move out, you cant stop her..but the kids will be better off staying in the home for school ect..

I get the touch and gos and understand you want to save this M, but all you can do is your end
Take care of you

get busier, find a new activities, be there for the home and kids
be the stable parent..they will need that.


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Hello A

It appears like W has settled down a little bit. Even reconnecting with the dog. Four or five days of a sort of calm to the point of asking you along when she did some chores. Then back to monster for a few days and repeat.

Originally Posted by AuroraTr
These monster episodes always initiate her starting an R talk, one the issues she brings up is she wants to tell the kids about our separation.

I would stop engaging in these R talks. Just say “I am sorry you feel that way.” She is looking for justifications to leave, run, continue her fantasy. Also she might be working on talking herself into things. No need for you to prop up her divorce plan/fantasy.

Originally Posted by AuroraTr
...she wanted to have an R talk, specifically what a D would look like as far as living arrangements and she also wants to let the kids know we are separated after Christmas. She seemed a tiny bit emotional while talking and when I asked her if she was sure if a D is what she wanted because she has never actually said the word (except saying she wants a trial separation) she just said well I don't see us having more than just a platonic relationship. I asked her one more time a little bit later and she said well she wants to tell the kids so...

Again - “Sorry you feel that way.”

Asking her, twice, to see if she is really sure of her feelings is not validating. Of course she’s not sure, but she doesn’t want you to tell her or point that out. She would bring up - see you never listen to me - for example.

Just validate her view. Not need to further it with discussions she cannot hear right now.

You’ve ask interesting questions. I’ll start with the second one.

Originally Posted by AuroraTr
I do not want to pursue the sale of house because its the best thing for the kids to not move. However, if my wife is cake eating how do I express to her that I am not OK with that, without causing a huge fight?

First off, yes it would be best for the kids not to move.

Your idea to rent a bigger place so W can stay when it is her time for custody, sounds counterproductive to that end. Unless you divorce and cannot keep the house I see no reason it must be sold.

I am guessing that you are ok standing and moving forward. And do not want to sell the house.

W is talking about being roommates for the next year. Validate and see what happens. Also get yourself back in the master bedroom. Something along the lines of “I agree we could live under the same roof. I’m going to move back into the bedroom.”

Do not use roommate in that discussion. Do not agree to be a roommate. There is also no need to explain why you are moving back into the master bedroom, nor say anything like she is free to move to the basement if she chooses. Let her be, and you do what you stated.

Now, cake eating is another matter. I want to be sure you and I are in the same page. Cake eating means the spouse is having sex with someone else, and still you. That is a situation you don’t want to enable. You cannot stop her; you can only control yourself.

If she is cake eating than no more sex from you. Boundary! MLCers are like teenagers and have zero empathy. They like having two people fight over them. They need to grow up, so they need boundaries. Remove yourself from her equation, give her space and time, and lots of it.

As for not wanting to cause a huge fight over cake eating. Stick to your stated boundary and become indifferent to her. Your not being ok with it will be obvious.

If she is not cake eating so much the better. Time will tell. And yes keep expectations to zero.

Originally Posted by AuroraTr
When we tell the kids should we be 100% honest and I should expect my wife to state that she is leaving me? Or do I generalize things more with so it seems like a mutual decision and maybe easier for the kids to swallow?

Originally Posted by AuroraTr
My kids are 8, 11, 12, and fourteen. The younger two I do not believe realize what is going on, while the older two (from an overheard convo) believe the wife and I are having money issues and is the reason why I am sleeping in the basement.

Kids are much more perceptive than we usually give them credit for. The younger two, along with the two older ones, probably already know more or less what’s goes on; and I’m pretty sure they all talk.

To start with, do not expect anything particular from W. It is rare that someone takes the blame (credit ?) for breaking up a family. My XW is somewhat of a rarity in that, and a few other regards. I don’t see your W at that level of desperate destruction. Still it matters little, you cannot count on what W might, or might not, say.

It is best to be honest with your children. This affect them greatly, and they need answers. Your query of being 100% honest is open to interpretation. Age appropriate is needed and honest can be looked at as there is nothing that you need to lie about. You can disclose as questions come up, instead of the other way around.

Children can lead questions so age appropriate becomes easier as they ask further questions based upon the truthful answers they have received. And there will be further questions. That is a good thing.

From my experience the MLCer will state stuff and that will be the end of it. Everyone should get over it and move on, happy for the new life the MLCer has chosen. You know better, life doesn’t move like that. There will be lots of follow up, and you will most likely be the one answering those questions.

What to tell the kids the first time, is a stressful thing. You get a say in what to tell them the first time. And you, contrary to W, do not need to get it all out there the first time. You want and expect further questions. So, what to tell can be thought in less stressful terms because you can start small and build from there. And that is the best approach anyhow.

If W (Mom) is leaving then that needs to be stated. The first provided reason can and should be something like - “Mom and I are have some troubles and we need some time apart. We both love you guys very much, and this has nothing to to with any of your four guys. It is between Mom and me. I know you all have questions, and you can always ask me anything you like.” Open the door to further questions which will bring further details.

If you and W are staying under the same roof, then the need to break the ice is not there. Mom is not leaving, and her feelings about leaving are not needed to be knowing to the children at this time.

I suspect the kids have been asking a few questions. Even just about the sleeping arrangements. Something to consider, regardless if W stays or leaves.

Kids are egocentric, the world revolves around them. You need to assure them this is not their fault. In breakups or serious in-house problems they will ask about blame, affairs, adultery, and so on. It is really amazing just how inquisitive a young mind is, and how much more grown up they really are. Be honest with them. They need answer to their questions.

Do not demonize their other parent. Demonstrate kindness and compassion to their Mom, they are watching and will learn it as well.

A big thing in all this is that kids need to grieve, accept, and forgive just like you. It does them no good to harbour a grudge against their Mom. It is difficult, probably impossible, to find acceptance and forgiveness for something you don’t even know about. We all need a certain level of understanding to move forward.

Hope that helps.

Stay strong and live in the light.

DnJ


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Thank you so much for the responses, very helpful and much appreciated. I intend to stand for as long as I can, for her, for the kids and of course for me.
I realized my intro post is a little thin on specifics so allow me to fill in some more of the blanks.

My wife dropped the bomb late September and in hindsight I would say she was in full blown replay from early summer.
I found this board early (thank goodness) did the recommended homework and was able to start DBing shortly after BD.
Up until then our relationship was awesome, we loved each other very much, we were best friends and were a fantastic team.

Some background on my wife:

At the age of 11 she became aware her dad was having an affair(s). Her mom confided in her to look for support while bashing her dad.
In her teens, her dad made no attempt to hide his lovers bringing them to his office (and other public places) where my wife worked part time.
Her parents are still married, and as long as my wife can remember her mother has always been an emotional wreck and has been a severe alcoholic for the past 25 years.
My wife has always been suspect of her mothers role in her dads infidelity. She thinks it was quite possible they had a sex starved marriage because of her.
Both her parents do love my wife very much, although they are not the best examples of what a married couple should be.
My wife moved out at 18 to Canada from overseas, no doubt to leave behind the mayhem. It was during this time her mothers alcoholism really got bad.

Some key background info on our marriage:

At 6 months of age our son was diagnosed with cancer and he lost his left eye. At 8 months of age he was further diagnosed with a massive brain tumor with CSF involvement. We were told to take him home and enjoy him as he only had weeks maybe a few months to live. We were approached by a wonderful doctor who had a trail treatment regime that she thought could save him. His first birthday coincide with the start of his bone marrow transplant (thank goodness we banked his cord blood from birth as we could be sure it was cancer free). For the next 8 years of his life he underwent chemo treatments in his CSF through a shunt that was placed through his brain into is CSF sack.
Initially my wife and I agreed to having 2 kids, but we had a third primarily so we could bank cord blood should our son need it in the future. My wife was pregnant during our sons bone marrow transplant where she was stuck in a sterilized 10 x 10 hospital room for ten weeks caring for a one year old with no immune system. We decided to have a fourth baby primarily for the same reasons, but he died shortly after birth due to complications. We later had a healthy baby girl and now have 4 beautiful kids.
Our son is truly a miracle and is now a kind, handsome and intelligent 12 year old who loves life and is prospering very well.

My wife and I got through all of this with really no help from her folks or mine (who are mess as well), we were an unbelievable team. There is so much more I could say, but the respect and love i have for her cannot be described. If it was not for her advocacy, my son would not be alive today, however that is another story.

My wife has been a rock during those trying times, there is a lot that I think she has never really dealt with. I'm standing because I have hope she will find her way.

Thank you!

P.S. I never attributed cake eating specifically to an affair/sex with other men. I was more using it in the sense that living in the same house with me affords her the conveniences of utilizing me as a babysitter, sharing household chores etc... all the while allowing her to have more time for the "single life". My wife and I have not been intimate since BD and I intend to keep it that way until she gets through this.
Lastly, during replay my wife has been drinking much more. She never drinks when she is out as she always drives, but when she is at home she starts drinking before the kids go to sleep and ramps it up after they are in bad.
interesting tidbit happened today, my wife left a current issue psychology magazine out in the open that had articles listed on the cover about trusting (or not trusting) intuition as well as addiction solutions. All this while having one of her worst monster episodes in awhile. She came home with my son who had as semi annual full body MRI and when I asked how thinks went she laid into me because I should have known things went well otherwise she would have contacted me. Yikes!
Thanks for letting me vent, strength to you all!

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Hello,
I'm just wanting to share my latest experience and see if anyone can relate.
Recently my MLC wife purchased a physiology magazine with an articles on addiction and intuition and left it lying about in plain site. It was hard not get excited as this was the first sign of introspection she has exhibited so overtly for me to see. Shortly after that, she ordered a book online using our joint email, the book was from Desmond Morris titled The Human Sexes. Once again not long after that, she ordered yet another book using our joint email titled, Why I Can't Sleep, A Women's Modern Midlife Crisis. There is a significance for me not only in the type of books she purchased but also that she used our joint email for these orders. She has not used this email in months for anything. The order receipts clearly stated the title of the books and were left in the inbox open for about a day before be she deleted them.
I would be lying if I said if my hope wasn't replaced with some expectations at this point, however as many of you can imagine things are not working as I was expecting. In fact her pendulum has been swinging further out to each side. She has been Replaying harder, her monster is meaner, her depression is deeper and her touch and goes kinder.
With the wisdom of this board I always knew I was just starting my journey, however her introspection has made me feel that she has regressed even more and my journey is infinitely longer that I imagined despite some good signs.

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Sounds like she knows that there is something wrong w/her and she is attempting to self diagnose her problems. Not being able to sleep is a symptom of depression. When all is quiet in the world, their minds can't shut off and they are thinking about what they have done in the past and what they are doing right now to us and they do actually feel ashamed and guilty for what they are doing. They all know something is wrong, but don't want us to help them or suggest that they see a doctor. The best thing to do is to not say one word about the books. If she talks to you about it, just listen...do not whisper one word about what you have learned about MLC and depression.

It's all part of the journey for them and yes, he monster will come out to play and become nastier when something isn't going her way. The best thing to do is leave her to her situation and observe from afar. Her journey has taken off and there are going to be good days and bad.

This is a marathon, not a sprint and her crisis could last a long time. So, dig deeper for patience and keep the focus on you as much as possible.


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My wife also bought the Why we can't sleep book. I finished it before she did. The book doesn't discuss the nature of MLC from past issues. It blames MLC on being a generation x individual that has different stresses in their life compared to others. Blames jobs, perception, expectations etc. There is a chapter on perimenopause that does discuss hormones and suggest getting help with that.

My wife wanted me to know she read it, she told me one night when we were drinking. I did not respond. Her take was that parents of generation x kids raised their children different than we do today. She actually told her mother about the book. Her mom got super defensive as in don't blame your issues on me.

Hopefully the introspection is positive forward movement.

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Yes, I finished the books before she did well. You are right the book doesn't really seem to talk about MLC as we know it, but rather mid life stress. I would compare it to some saying they have a migraine when it's regular headache. The premenopausal stuff is good info and there was just a little info on infidelity and projection onto spouses. For me it's the fact that she is reading anything with the words MLC in it it's one baby step in the right direction.
Thanks for the advice job, as much as I would like to, mum is the word on the books. Hopefully she keeps reading and discovering!

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Aurora,

Would love to chat, we have a lot in common, also from Ontario. Not sure how since private messages do not work. Any suggestions?

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I can set up a burner hotmail account, post the addy and we could then exchange further contact info that way. Thoughts?

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Good idea.

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No, you can't post the addy here. It is against the policies of the forum. The private messaging on this forum is not available to posters. Please, please do not post any personal info on how to contact you. If you do, you are subject to either being put back on moderation or banned from the site. Do not put the moderators in a position of doing either of those things to you.

Here is what is in the policies of the forum:

"This is a public forum. Exchanging private contact information with other users is not allowed. Our purpose in making this On Line Community available to you is to offer you a place to publicly give and receive Divorce Busting help, and to support one another in saving your marriages and keeping your families together. It was never our intention to provide a means of privately connecting with others via the internet. There are many other sites where that is encouraged. This is not one of them. We are here to help and support you via this public forum."


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Will do job or rather won't do, thanks for the heads up.

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No problem. We don't want to be put into a situation whereby we have to drop the hammer on the posters for doing something they shouldn't. Thanks for understanding.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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No problem, that was my bad as I should have checked the rules first.
Cheers!

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Greetings,
I have been reading some of the stories on here about the pit falls of premature reconciliation. My MLC wife has not displayed any intentions of doing so but I thought it would be prudent to have a plan laid out should this occur. Any advice on how to handle such a sensitive situation? How do you turn them down without it driving them further into the tunnel?
Thank you in advance.

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Hi everyone,

Hoping to get some of your thoughts on a couple of questions.

1) How does one or is there a way to discern whether their spouse is actually in MLC or Bi-polar? Seems as though many
of the symptoms are the same.

2) I have been reading some of the stories on here about the pit falls of premature reconciliation. My MLC wife has not
displayed any intentions of doing so but I thought it would be prudent to have a plan laid out should this occur. Any
advice on how to handle such a sensitive situation? How do you turn them down without it driving them further into
the tunnel?

Thank you in advance.

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Did your wife display symptoms of bi-polar pre-crisis? If the answer is no, then she is most likely not bi-polar, but acting out in replay. The main ingredient of MLC is depression and yes, lots of confusion and they are emotionally charged because it is a very emotional journey that they travel. They were emotionally stunted at a very early age and when MLC bubbles up, well, emotions take over and you can't rationalize w/an emotionally charged individual. They become self-centered and very selfish. They lie, they exhibit mirror image behavior, i.e., the exact opposite of the person you know and love. They can experiment w/drugs, alcohol, affair partners, gambling and spending money like it is water. They truly go off the rails, i.e., one minute nice as can be and the next angrier than an old wet hen. They truly do not know what they want but they think a separation/divorce is the answer and that the rainbow has a pot of gold on the other side. They do not realize that happiness comes from within, not from external things.

As for exhibiting signs of reconciliation, it takes years for that to occur. If she is in replay, she's got a long way to go. The best advice that I can give you is to focus on today and allow tomorrow to reveal itself in due time. Keep the focus on you and what you need to do in order to survive this ordeal. Dig deeper for patience because this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Here is a link to a thread that discusses reconciliation:

TMAK - Explanation fo Reconcilation (new)

Also, here is a thread where we discussed MLC and depression:

In Tandem--MLC and Depression

There are a number of good threads under the Resources Thread at the top. You may want to visit that thread.










Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Thanks job,
No Bi-polar symptoms pre crisis, no doubt it's MLC then and glad to remove any doubt from my head.

Regards.

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