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Hi AT. I'd say a bit of 5 & 6.


~Never Give Up ~
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Please stick to one thread until you have reached 100 postings/replies. You can change your thread title at any time within a thread.


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Hello A

A person in crisis will go with or without the LBS’s help. Just think - a Mom literally stepping over her crying children as she leaves her house to go live with OM. That is the lack of empathy a MLCer exhibits. Self centred and total indifference. Me and my kids had a front row seat to that.

How she will perceive your help. It depends, and it will change. She is ruled by emotions and they are not static or stable.

A guess - she see it as you being alright with her cheating proposition. You are enabling her running behaviours, although she doesn’t see them as running.

There would be little to no gratitude, well sincere gratitude, she might have a facade. In fact I would suspect she would harbour resentment towards you for your role in this. That probably makes little sense to you - because you are thinking rationally. She is not. She is irrational.

She at some point will be looking for anything to blame you for, get mad at, and stomp and storm out. For an hour, for a night, for a weekend, for whatever. Stay on the sidelines and do not get in the line of fire.

She is a big girl. If she wants to go away for the weekend, she can figure it out. Your help would be to look after the kids.

You cannot stop her and you seem to realize that and are not putting boulders in her way. However, you need not help her leave. There are boulders and bumps in life and she needs to handle those on her own.

So probability of each:

#1 - She’d take your offer with no reflection. She’s looking to get away not reflect.

#2 - I do think she would respond negatively, maybe not outwardly but internally. She doesn’t want, or wants to need your help.

#3 - Yeah. Kind of.

#4 - Oh yes! You being ok with her running is not the thing you want to project IMHO. Try - You are ok with her being in control of her life. And she has to live with the consequences of her actions - boundaries for example.

#5 - Nope. Trying to convince her that you want her to leave so you can have fun with the kids, doesn’t look like GAL. Instead - just go have fun with the kids. Invite her along and if she doesn’t want to come, fine. Get a Life for you and your children. GAL is not dependant on her actions.

#6 - Not likely. She doesn’t feel she is wrong or broken. You can be supportive but she will not view it that way.


Her perceptions, how she might perceive your actions is a good question. Remember she is hurt and emotional. She is looking for someone to blame, looking for justification. You support her by giving space and time. She needs to grow up and she can’t do that if you help her.

Now, that doesn’t mean never help her. If she is in serious trouble, help, just like you would anyone. If she is doing things as a family and asking for help, another fine time. It’s the MLC stuff. She is going to make some very poor decisions and she needs to be accountable for those. She needs to own them and grow from them. Your role in that is to stay out of it unless it impacts or affects you and the kids. And then it is not to change her, it is to protect you and the kids.

Anyhow, that my take on things, from what I’ve seen and experienced.

DnJ


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Hi everyone.
Last couple of weeks my wife and I have been co-parenting very well and her anger towards has been been kept in check. However her replay mode has strengthened to going out four times a week salsa dancing even though she seems to think it's at max twice a week when confronted by her daughter. Nonetheless things have been diplomatic with even some laughs. Yesterday she wanted to have an R talk, specifically what a D would look like as far as living arrangements and she also wants to let the kids know we are separated after Christmas. She seemed a tiny bit emotional while talking and when I asked her if she was sure if a D is what she wanted because she has never actually said the word (except saying she wants a trial separation) she just said well I don't see us having more than just a platonic relationship. I asked her one more time a little bit later and she said well she wants to tell the kids so... Just found it curious she couldn't say the words.

We talked about listing the house in the spring, so that looks like it may occur but she has not formerly suggested starting divorce proceedings.

The convo was civil except when I reacted to her re-writing history on how we arrived here. I quickly caught myself and tampered down any flare ups.

I suggested to her I take full responsibility for my part in this but I also told her we would have arrived here regardless of any circumstances. I said her growth would have happened regardless and that perhaps with these changes she should bugger off for a month and go to Europe to finnish her growth unimpeded. She seemed to like the idea but was worried that splitting up when she comes back would paint as the bad guy with the kids.

Going forward I want to propose to her that the living arrangements that I would like to see happen after the sale of our house is as follows; I want to rent a larger house for me and the four kids, that way she can rent a smaller one bedroom condo and help me with the kids as she pleases at my place. My rationale for this is I really do not want to have the kids go back and forth and have already expressed to her my feelings about that. She is perfectly happy doing 50/50 custody and I suspect would be happier doing less. Thoughts on proposing that to her? Not looking for legal opinions but rather how that may be received.

Of note, she walks around with music on her phone constantly even when she goes to the washroom, walks out to the car or takes out the trash. She falls asleep with it and instantly cranks it up upon opening her eyes in the morning. I figure she has to be distracted or else depression sets in.

Thank you and sorry for grammar and spelling , I hate typing on my phone but have to for security reasons.

Last edited by job; 12/11/19 11:20 PM. Reason: added space between paragraphs
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I plan to continue wearing my wedding band as a personal choice. Until we are divorced, I am still married in my opinion. Also, I am detaching, 180ing, etc but think the ring sends the message to H that all is not lost. H still wears his wedding band too but the BD was just a month ago. In time he may decide to take it off. I feel like he is taking baby steps.

FWIW, we still live under the same roof but in separate parts of the house. H seems to be having an affair, staying out all night until 10 - 11 a.m. some nights. He no longer tells me where he is going or when he will return. So far he does not stay more than 24 hours. I think this is only for the sake of our young children.

Last edited by HesAble; 12/12/19 05:05 PM.

H and Me - Both 45; S13 and D9
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Since you have MLCers living under the same roof, I am going to suggest that you look up HaWho's threads. She had a man/child living under her roof for a long time and he finally left in the last year or so. She went through h@ll, but she came out the other side. She also has two sons still living in the home.

I am very, very proud of the way that she handled her situation. You might pick up some pointers from her threads.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
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Thank you for that job.

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Hi everyone,
I need some advice please, but a quick update first.
Over the last few weeks my wife seems to be having some touch and go stretches that last 4-5 days, she has brought me coffee, asked how may day was (on 3 occasions) and even asked if I wanted to run some chores with her and the kids. Her replay has settled down a little bit as well and she has reconnected with our dog (she loves dogs) and her mothering is better as well.
These stretches always end with a couple of days of monster then back to touch and go.
These monster episodes always initiate her starting an R talk, one the issues she brings up is she wants to tell the kids about our separation. My kids are 8, 11, 12, and fourteen. The younger two I do not believe realize what is going on, while the older two (from an overheard convo) believe the wife and I are having money issues and is the reason why I am sleeping in the basement. I have been firm in not delivering the news to the kids until we are far enough away from the holidays and birthdays. I have expressed to my wife very diplomatically that while our situation is somewhat civil it is not mutual. I explained to her that when she is talking to friends about this that I hope she owns the situation and explains she left me and does not sugar coat things. Her reaction to this was a quite calm.

So my first question is: When we tell the kids should we be 100% honest and I should expect my wife to state that she is leaving me? Or do I generalize things more with so it seems like a mutual decision and maybe easier for the kids to swallow?


My second issue deals with sale of our house. Initially my wife was set on selling in the spring. I had expressed to her that my biggest concern is the kids being shuffled back and fourth between us. I suggested I would rent a bigger house that would have an extra room for her to stay when it was her turn with the kids and of course I would make myself scarce during her time. This way the kids at least are fixed and she would be doing the back and forth. Well, on a few occasions she has been trying to figure out a way we can stay as "roomates" in our current house as a trial for maybe a year or so. The last time she mentioned it she said if we sell the house that its such an irreversible move.She tried to clarify by saying not as it relates to us but in the sense we would have to pay realtor commissions, legal fees and moving costs that we would never get back. Seems to me the future is beginning to seem a little bit scary for her and I get the sense she may be cake eating here by trying to stay at home.

So my question is: I do not want to pursue the sale of house because its the best thing for the kids to not move. However, if my wife is cake eating how do I express to her that I am not OK with that, without causing a huge fight?
Lastly, let me just say while I do find tremendous relief from my wife 's touch and goes I have read enough posts from the wise members on this board to keep my expectations at zero, and thats what Im trying to do.
Thanks in Advance.

Last edited by AuroraTr; 01/11/20 02:44 PM.
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Hi

I dont know that much about your full situation

But

If at all possible, I would leave the separation as neutral as possible

WE/Mom needs some time to figure things out
Sometimes M have bumps...
no ones fault..Its not their fault
We both love you very much, and I am hopefull we can work it out

It will bring up feelings probably in all of them, especially in the older 3 kids
I would then listen to them with a loving heart and offer counseling as needed

I had to spend many hours listening to my then D age 11...She took it hard

I always kept it neutral,
in the later years I also said things like Dad is not well.
once it became very clear that he was indeed in MLC and sick
But I never said a bad word about him to my kids
Today they are fully grown, and very awesome people.

Over time they will really know the absolute truth, so I would be honest but not brutally

The house, I would suggest if at all possible for the stability of the kids to keep
She should be the one who moves especially until D if it comes to that
If she wants to live there, then that is something you will have to deal with

I think if the LBS stays in the home, the chances may be better for restoring the M, but not always as in Ha Whos thread
I dont know your full situation so this may not be possible

The idea of her being a room mates may be difficult especially for you..
But Im sure you can do it and there are others here who still live with the MLCer
as long as you know, this will take a lot of time whether she moves or stays if it is MLC and she may get worse either way in replay

maybe if you want to give this more time, avoid the sale of the house talk for now..
If she wants to move out, you cant stop her..but the kids will be better off staying in the home for school ect..

I get the touch and gos and understand you want to save this M, but all you can do is your end
Take care of you

get busier, find a new activities, be there for the home and kids
be the stable parent..they will need that.


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Hello A

It appears like W has settled down a little bit. Even reconnecting with the dog. Four or five days of a sort of calm to the point of asking you along when she did some chores. Then back to monster for a few days and repeat.

Originally Posted by AuroraTr
These monster episodes always initiate her starting an R talk, one the issues she brings up is she wants to tell the kids about our separation.

I would stop engaging in these R talks. Just say “I am sorry you feel that way.” She is looking for justifications to leave, run, continue her fantasy. Also she might be working on talking herself into things. No need for you to prop up her divorce plan/fantasy.

Originally Posted by AuroraTr
...she wanted to have an R talk, specifically what a D would look like as far as living arrangements and she also wants to let the kids know we are separated after Christmas. She seemed a tiny bit emotional while talking and when I asked her if she was sure if a D is what she wanted because she has never actually said the word (except saying she wants a trial separation) she just said well I don't see us having more than just a platonic relationship. I asked her one more time a little bit later and she said well she wants to tell the kids so...

Again - “Sorry you feel that way.”

Asking her, twice, to see if she is really sure of her feelings is not validating. Of course she’s not sure, but she doesn’t want you to tell her or point that out. She would bring up - see you never listen to me - for example.

Just validate her view. Not need to further it with discussions she cannot hear right now.

You’ve ask interesting questions. I’ll start with the second one.

Originally Posted by AuroraTr
I do not want to pursue the sale of house because its the best thing for the kids to not move. However, if my wife is cake eating how do I express to her that I am not OK with that, without causing a huge fight?

First off, yes it would be best for the kids not to move.

Your idea to rent a bigger place so W can stay when it is her time for custody, sounds counterproductive to that end. Unless you divorce and cannot keep the house I see no reason it must be sold.

I am guessing that you are ok standing and moving forward. And do not want to sell the house.

W is talking about being roommates for the next year. Validate and see what happens. Also get yourself back in the master bedroom. Something along the lines of “I agree we could live under the same roof. I’m going to move back into the bedroom.”

Do not use roommate in that discussion. Do not agree to be a roommate. There is also no need to explain why you are moving back into the master bedroom, nor say anything like she is free to move to the basement if she chooses. Let her be, and you do what you stated.

Now, cake eating is another matter. I want to be sure you and I are in the same page. Cake eating means the spouse is having sex with someone else, and still you. That is a situation you don’t want to enable. You cannot stop her; you can only control yourself.

If she is cake eating than no more sex from you. Boundary! MLCers are like teenagers and have zero empathy. They like having two people fight over them. They need to grow up, so they need boundaries. Remove yourself from her equation, give her space and time, and lots of it.

As for not wanting to cause a huge fight over cake eating. Stick to your stated boundary and become indifferent to her. Your not being ok with it will be obvious.

If she is not cake eating so much the better. Time will tell. And yes keep expectations to zero.

Originally Posted by AuroraTr
When we tell the kids should we be 100% honest and I should expect my wife to state that she is leaving me? Or do I generalize things more with so it seems like a mutual decision and maybe easier for the kids to swallow?

Originally Posted by AuroraTr
My kids are 8, 11, 12, and fourteen. The younger two I do not believe realize what is going on, while the older two (from an overheard convo) believe the wife and I are having money issues and is the reason why I am sleeping in the basement.

Kids are much more perceptive than we usually give them credit for. The younger two, along with the two older ones, probably already know more or less what’s goes on; and I’m pretty sure they all talk.

To start with, do not expect anything particular from W. It is rare that someone takes the blame (credit ?) for breaking up a family. My XW is somewhat of a rarity in that, and a few other regards. I don’t see your W at that level of desperate destruction. Still it matters little, you cannot count on what W might, or might not, say.

It is best to be honest with your children. This affect them greatly, and they need answers. Your query of being 100% honest is open to interpretation. Age appropriate is needed and honest can be looked at as there is nothing that you need to lie about. You can disclose as questions come up, instead of the other way around.

Children can lead questions so age appropriate becomes easier as they ask further questions based upon the truthful answers they have received. And there will be further questions. That is a good thing.

From my experience the MLCer will state stuff and that will be the end of it. Everyone should get over it and move on, happy for the new life the MLCer has chosen. You know better, life doesn’t move like that. There will be lots of follow up, and you will most likely be the one answering those questions.

What to tell the kids the first time, is a stressful thing. You get a say in what to tell them the first time. And you, contrary to W, do not need to get it all out there the first time. You want and expect further questions. So, what to tell can be thought in less stressful terms because you can start small and build from there. And that is the best approach anyhow.

If W (Mom) is leaving then that needs to be stated. The first provided reason can and should be something like - “Mom and I are have some troubles and we need some time apart. We both love you guys very much, and this has nothing to to with any of your four guys. It is between Mom and me. I know you all have questions, and you can always ask me anything you like.” Open the door to further questions which will bring further details.

If you and W are staying under the same roof, then the need to break the ice is not there. Mom is not leaving, and her feelings about leaving are not needed to be knowing to the children at this time.

I suspect the kids have been asking a few questions. Even just about the sleeping arrangements. Something to consider, regardless if W stays or leaves.

Kids are egocentric, the world revolves around them. You need to assure them this is not their fault. In breakups or serious in-house problems they will ask about blame, affairs, adultery, and so on. It is really amazing just how inquisitive a young mind is, and how much more grown up they really are. Be honest with them. They need answer to their questions.

Do not demonize their other parent. Demonstrate kindness and compassion to their Mom, they are watching and will learn it as well.

A big thing in all this is that kids need to grieve, accept, and forgive just like you. It does them no good to harbour a grudge against their Mom. It is difficult, probably impossible, to find acceptance and forgiveness for something you don’t even know about. We all need a certain level of understanding to move forward.

Hope that helps.

Stay strong and live in the light.

DnJ


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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