Hello, wise MLC posters. I've been posting in Newcomers but I think my story fits in here as well, and I could benefit from some advice.
My H is 29, I am 31. Together 9 years, married 3. We had our first child 20 months ago and he ran away 5 months ago. At BD I copped a load of abuse. He said he settled for me, I wasn’t good enough for him, I wasn’t the wife he deserved, he wanted to sleep with other people, he wasn’t going to do what society expects of him, he deserved a better life, the only thing he cared about was his own happiness. And that he was leaving for three months to get some space. That turned into a permanent separation after six weeks. When asked during our final relationship conversation what he wanted, and what would make him happy, he just said "I don't know."
We got together when we were 20/22. We went through the motions of becoming adults together - dating, moving in, engagement, buying a home, marriage, baby, management positions in our careers - and it's as though H is rejecting it all now at age 29. In the days following BD he said that his happiness peaked at age 20, when life was all about casual work, video games, motor vehicles, and hanging out with the boys. It's obvious that he is not grateful for the life we built, nor does he value it. That's fine. He is free to go and create a life he will appreciate. My approach now is to let him try that on for size and see if he cares about what he has lost.
The last time I talked to him, he said he does have thoughts about coming home, but wants to be free to make his own decisions. Looking back at the last five months, his behaviour has been consistent with a mid-life (quarter-life?) crisis - attempting to relive his youth, reverting to childish sulking and outbursts, suddenly focused on health and fitness, acting impulsively, talking in absolutes, avoiding responsibilities, seeking validation from new younger friends, sleeping with someone and flaunting hickies all over his neck, buying a brand new car and motorbike, tanking his career by telling people he is too good for the company he’s been with for 9 years.
My feeling now is that this is a deeper problem than an unhappy marriage - it is an unhappy life. He distanced himself from family and friends when the crisis started, has made a laughing stock of himself at work, and most sadly, has become an uninterested and unengaged parent. When I asked him why he left our son as well when he walked out, he said he just needed to escape from the world. This journey has been marked by confusion and inconsistency and I've struggled to keep up and keep my distance. At this stage he seem deep into the tunnel. He can't file for divorce until 12 months have passed, so this gives me time to improve myself and address his legitimate concerns.
Our marriage was in a lengthy rough patch for the first 15 months of our son's life, but finally on an upswing (or so I thought). I had a slow decline into severe PND/A during that time where I struggled with anger, intrusive thoughts, and an inability to function beyond the bare minimum of keeping my child alive as a SAHM. I went to individual counselling, I asked for couples counselling to help us deal with my anxiety, I went on medication, I went back to work, I scheduled sex to address the dead bedroom, I poured my heart out to get him to understand how desperate I felt. He buried himself in work and prioritised his work friends, vocally resented his loss of freedom, and eventually told me he lost all respect and attraction to me.
Basically, I tried to overcome our problems but it was the beginning of the end for him. Now I do believe that he was a large contributor to my PND/A because subconsciously I never felt secure in his love or his commitment to parenthood.
Despite that, as of now, I'm standing for my marriage. I believe in my vows and in my H's potential. I can see now that the red flags for this crisis were there all along, and it was probably destined to happen regardless of the circumstances. He has to complete his own personal growth before I'd consider reconciling. To me it seems like he's still running away and filling the emotional void with whatever he can. New vehicles, new sex, new young friends, new hobbies. It doesn't sound healthy to me and I have my S1's emotional safety to consider.
I have 100% physical custody and H has biweekly visitation. I have thought that this might be the best opportunity for H to come into his own as a parent, but he is barely handling the current bare minimum responsibility. It's just unfortunate that he doesn't have much opportunity because S1 is so young and won't be away from me much. I feel like these long term consequences of his choice might be hitting him now and making him have thoughts about coming home. Initially he was in a panic and just wanted to blow it all up and escape, now he might have time to think a bit more clearly. Maybe waking up on Christmas morning away from S1 might have an impact. Who knows though.
Sorry for the novel. It helps to let it all out and look back at the journey so far. Time will tell if this is a relationship worth saving. Most people say I deserve better, and maybe I do. I'm meeting new people and even dating casually. Last time we talked, H said that it would be good for us to see other people to get clarity on what we'd be leaving behind. I don't think he's felt the sting of losing me yet. Anyway, I thank everyone who reads my thread and takes the time to comment - it is appreciated more than you know.
Going to repeat my comment and your response from the other thread:
“Originally Posted by kml
While everything else could be mid quarter crisis, this sounds manic. Either bipolar mania or substance abuse. Reminds me of a med school classmate who had a manic episode and marched into the Deans office and demanded they give him his diploma because he already knew everything.
Is there a history of any mental illness in his family? Any signs he might be abusing stimulants like meth or cocaine?“
That's a crazy story. I think it's very unlikely there's any substance abuse. No family history of mental illness, but definitely a lot of dysfunction.
Well I wouldn’t assume anything about either drugs or mental illness. It’s amazing what we sometimes end up finding out about our spouses.
Because of the grandiosity of your H telling his work what he did, I’d be very worried about other irrational behavior financially. You need to protect yourself financially. Run a credit check and make sure he hasn’t taken out loans or credit cards in your name or that you might end up responsible for. Get an order for temporary support if you don’t already have one. Start taking steps to make yourself and your child financially safe even if H becomes a total deadbeat. You may not be able to count on his financial support in the future so make a plan for self sufficiency.
This is always a great time for self-improvement - to make needed changes, become braver and dream big. BUT - this didn’t happen because of your flaws or your postpartum depression. This is about him and his issues.
I know it’s really hard with a baby but living your best life, having fun and doing interesting things, is the best path forward. It makes you more interesting to him AND will put you in a good place even if he doesn’t come back.
Despite that, as of now, I'm standing for my marriage. I believe in my vows and in my H's potential.
And as for this: be careful about believing in someone's "potential". He either has a serious mental illness (bipolar), a serious personality disorder (narcissism) or he's just showing you that he is not someone who can be trusted when the chips are down.
Who was it that said "when someone shows you who they are, believe them"?
You need to set the bar very high for him to come back: serious therapy, psychiatric evaluation, monogamous dating for a year without him moving back in and with complete transparency on phone/FB/etc. Anything less and you are setting yourself up for a repeat of this down the road. (Take it from the voice of experience.)
I bet, that if you look back carefully over your life together without the rose colored glasses on, you'll realize that he was never quite the man you thought he was. Did you go along with doing only the activities HE wanted to do, and seeing the friends HE wanted to see? Was he obsessed with your appearance and how you made him look? Was he over-the-top into you in the beginning, sweeping you off your feet, only to turn? Or was he always avoidant, difficult to win, never quite 100% in the relationship? Were you always giving more than he was to the relationship? Were you spending a lot of your energy to keep him "happy"?
Marriage and raising children is hard. You're in a very tough position because you already have a child with him. But you still need to look down the road and think about whether keeping him in your life is going to be the best thing for your child. Will he be the partner you need when your teenager does drugs, or your 12 year old gets a life-threatening illness? Sometimes a good step-father can be better than a really damaged father.
(My sister was married and had a daughter with her first husband, who turned out to be a sociopath. Very good at putting on a charming face while doing and saying completely different things behind her back. He left after having an affair while my sister was providing hospice care to his dying mother - a woman who had never been nice to my sister btw but my sister is a saint. He had 2 more children with the OW then left her for another woman - I think he's on number 4 or 5 by now. He really couldn't be bothered being a proper father to my niece, but my sister remarried a solid guy who was a good step-father - he went to all my niece's basketball games, band performances, fixed her cars. He just sadly died after 22 years married to my sister, and my niece considers him her father. She calls her biological father her "sperm donor". )
Oh - and in regard to dating - it's not really fair to date someone when you're still hoping your H will come back. But it's fine to let H THINK you are dating as sometimes it does indeed wake them from their fantasy.
Now - what big dreams for YOUR future can you start working on? What things did you give up or put on the back burner because of H? What have you always wanted to do but were never brave enough to try?
The monster is back with a vengeance! It's been a while since he spewed at me but last night I enforced some boundaries and he didn't like the consequences. I know this is all projection and guilt talking, but damn, it's hard to stay calm and cop it. I heard:
"Why are you such a bitch to me?" (when I asked him to put Christmas plans in an email rather than discuss in front of our 2yo) "You think you're so perfect" (I've acknowledged and apologised many times for my flaws) "It's not your house until you pay me my settlement money" (when I asked him to show me respect in my home) "You're dragging out the settlement" (when I told him the bank won't approve my mortgage until there's six months' evidence of child support payments, he refused to backpay so it will take longer now) "You're not honest about your motives for taking full custody of our 2yo" (he abandoned us both leaving me no option and signed papers agreeing with current visitation schedule) "You're only in my family group chat to keep tabs on me" (it's to share pictures of our 2yo with MIL/SIL) "I know I'm not acting in our child's best interest but I have to do what's best for me" "I'm not 100% happy" (you don't say) "I wasn't going to wait 12 months to to get a divorce without having physical affection from OW" (when I said we can't be friends if he's with OW) "I have to work all these hours to earn all this money so I can have the life I want" (what about the life that our 2yo deserves?) "Your life is so easy with your 9-5 job, you can see our child whenever you want" (yes, life as a working single parent with 100% care of a 2yo is so easy) "I left because you were controlling and now I'm gone and you're still controlling me" (when I asked him not to message OW in my presence) "I can do whatever I want, whenever I want" "Your intentions are wrong" (when I said I'm sorry you feel that way, it wasn't my intention) "It's the principle that matters" (sent in a message after he stormed out leaving me crying making 2yo's dinner)
That last one made me see red! How dare he lecture me on principles. The next morning when I felt calmer, I replied telling him his actions have been morally bankrupt so let's not take a stand on principles. I've held my tongue for so long and I just couldn't stand it any more. He hasn't replied but I have to see him for child handover this afternoon. Seeing my psychologist and lawyer today. Nervous but I'm finally ready to grey rock and go NC.
Any suggestions on going NC when you share a child?
DON'T LET HIM SUCK YOU IN TO THOSE CONVERSATIONS. He won't hear you and you can't have a rational discussion with him in the state he's in. It just gets you all riled up for no purpose. Would you engage in a discussion like this with a schizophrenic or someone with Alzheimer's? No. And you have just about as much chance as getting through to him now.
Always ask yourself before you say something to him "Is saying this going to get me closer to my goal?" If not, just don't say it.
Saying "It wasn't my intention" is good. You can also say "I'm sorry you felt that way, it wasn't my intention."
And don't give him the satisfaction of your tears.
He's spewing and pushing buttons to try to get a reaction out of you. Don't give him the satisfaction. Stay calm cool and collected and act AS IF you don't give a flying fig.
(Note - I eventually trained my ex to text instead of call by phone calls "mysteriously" dropping when he'd spew. Then I trained him to email by responding to his texts with emails. Much less stressful that way.)
As for the kid handoffs - I didn't have to do them but is there some way you can arrange to always be on your way somewhere else that you have to hurry to when they occur? Like, he's dropping the kid at your house, you grab kid and say "Thanks, we're late for my class at the gym" and hustle into the car and leave? Or can you have a friend or family member present to short circuit the spew? (Preferably someone who won't join in the fight lol).
Sorry you find yourself here Welcome to the land Of MLC
the Mlcers will get a bit crazy during D time as he sees he is losing a lot Most are also terrible parents and they will try to BLAME us for stuff and justify their choices because we did or did not do... MLC is usually said to be caused by unresolved childhood trauma so maybe QLC is the same Im not sure but it makes sense if this is true then you will have little control over this situation and your H will have to figure out his own healing process or NOT..ands usually not
If you can shift your energy to healing yourself and raising your child..this is where the solution is get all the support emotionally from others your family, friends, support groups, 12 step rooms, therapists, church or temple- get grounded yoga, rest eat well, meditate, breathe...
this is usually a long process-and you may see the MLCer go further down watch for signs of drug addiction make sure your child is safe with him
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
I'm really struggling this week. My psychologist helped me verbalise that I'm afraid of his reactions and since then my anxiety is off the charts because I've decided to start enforcing some boundaries. I started meeting him at my front door for kid handover rather then letting him come and go in the house as he pleases. I didn't state it out loud but it will become clear through consistent action. The first time I did this on Tuesday, I was physically shaking. I said hello to H and S, asked S to say goodbye to dad, asked H for S's bag, and said see you later to H.
On Wednesday he sent an email with dates he is unavailable to visit S throughout November/December due to work. I just had a thought that it's possible that work isn't the only reason he is unavailable on weekends... Hmm. He wanted to take S to his family Christmas for 48 hours which would involve his first overnight away from me. He also said he wanted to see S on Christmas. We had already discussed Christmas in person and I had said he could either have S half the day or all Boxing Day and he seemed fine with it.
I agreed to swap the unavailable weekends. I agreed to the weekend overnight, but said I'd be more comfortable with only 24 hours away from home as it's the first time away and he's not yet 2 years old. I said I had plans with S and my family on Christmas Day, but he was welcome to take him for the whole day on Boxing Day. I added that I hope he understands I'm under no obligation to accommodate changes to the current schedule so his gratitude is appreciated.
Sending this email sent me into a anxious crying fit. I've internalised so much of the garbage he's spewed at me about being controlling, mean, cold etc, that I have absolutely no confidence in my own integrity. He told me he doesn't trust my motives when it comes to S, which I KNOW is absolute rubbish and the kind of thing a person who is used to operating under ulterior motives would say. He hasn't responded and I can't seem to calm down knowing what kind of response I will probably get.
It makes me incredibly sad that enforcing boundaries just adds fuel to the fire he has raging at me. It's clear he doesn't understand that consequences =/= punishment. I just feel like this is putting nails into the coffin of our marriage. If I give in to his manipulation and demands, he will be happier with me and around me, and perhaps reconsider whether I'm worth leaving, but I will have compromised my integrity. If I enforce boundaries to protect myself and S, I'm pushing him further away by confirming that I'm exactly the bad person he says I am, but I will feel safer and happier in the long run.
Who was it that said "when someone shows you who they are, believe them"?
I bet, that if you look back carefully over your life together without the rose colored glasses on, you'll realize that he was never quite the man you thought he was. Did you go along with doing only the activities HE wanted to do, and seeing the friends HE wanted to see? Was he obsessed with your appearance and how you made him look? Was he over-the-top into you in the beginning, sweeping you off your feet, only to turn? Or was he always avoidant, difficult to win, never quite 100% in the relationship? Were you always giving more than he was to the relationship? Were you spending a lot of your energy to keep him "happy"?
This really hits home, especially "avoidant, difficult to win, never quite 100% in". In the latter years of our marriage I could barely pry him off his video games to spend time with me. We had sooo many discussions about it and it always came down to ME having the problem - I was needy, controlling, unreasonable, uncool, a big meanie. I know now that I could have phrased it in a better way, ie. stating a desire rather than making a complaint. But I didn't have those relationship skills back then.
It's so hard to know what was real and what was a smokescreen. I bet if he read your paragraph above, he would be nodding his head in agreement that it describes ME to a T! Many times over the years I expressed my needs or concerns to him and he would fight me so hard deflecting and justifying his behaviour that I'd end up apologising for being too complicated and rocking the boat. I think now that I actually had very reasonable expectations of my spouse, but he was unwilling or unable to meet them.
Originally Posted by kml
Marriage and raising children is hard. You're in a very tough position because you already have a child with him. But you still need to look down the road and think about whether keeping him in your life is going to be the best thing for your child. Will he be the partner you need when your teenager does drugs, or your 12 year old gets a life-threatening illness? Sometimes a good step-father can be better than a really damaged father.
I already know the answer to this. He is not the role model I want for my child. I'm thankful he has little influence over his upbringing. I would be disappointed if S grew up to be like H.
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Now - what big dreams for YOUR future can you start working on? What things did you give up or put on the back burner because of H? What have you always wanted to do but were never brave enough to try?
I'm kicking goals at work! I received a promotion to management the week before H ran away and while it has been insanely challenging to keep all the balls in the air between full time work, full time parenting, legal proceedings, and coping emotionally with this MLC garbage, I have done really well as a new leader.
The thing making me really happy at the moment is investing in my living space. It was something that H didn't value and therefore didn't want to spend money on, but I'm a big homebody and it gives me much peace, clarity and joy. My current project is filling the walls with inspiring art.
I do as much outside of the house as I can with a toddler. Meeting new friends, reconnecting with old friends, saying yes to all invitations. But I also enjoy taking the time to care for myself with good food, long baths, relaxing down time, and plenty of sleep. Another thing that H made me feel guilty about.
Sending this email sent me into a anxious crying fit. I've internalised so much of the garbage he's spewed at me about being controlling, mean, cold etc, that I have absolutely no confidence in my own integrity. He told me he doesn't trust my motives when it comes to S, which I KNOW is absolute rubbish and the kind of thing a person who is used to operating under ulterior motives would say. He hasn't responded and I can't seem to calm down knowing what kind of response I will probably get.
Where does this come from? What is your family of origin like? Is there someone in your childhood who mistreated you? Often there is a clue in people's childhood as to why they would take the word of a unstable spouse over their own knowledge of self. You will need to work this out in order to be attracted to healthy partners in the future.
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It makes me incredibly sad that enforcing boundaries just adds fuel to the fire he has raging at me. It's clear he doesn't understand that consequences =/= punishment. I just feel like this is putting nails into the coffin of our marriage. If I give in to his manipulation and demands, he will be happier with me and around me, and perhaps reconsider whether I'm worth leaving, but I will have compromised my integrity. If I enforce boundaries to protect myself and S, I'm pushing him further away by confirming that I'm exactly the bad person he says I am, but I will feel safer and happier in the long run.
In all the years I've been here, I've never seen anyone win their spouse back by being a doormat. I HAVE seen people lose their financial shirts because they thought appeasing their WAS would win them back, and then they ended up divorced with a terrible settlement. IF he's going to come back he'll come back, and is more likely if you've been strong but calm.
Sorry you find yourself here Welcome to the land Of MLC
Thank you PT. As much as it stinks, I'm glad to have the help of people like yourself.
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the Mlcers will get a bit crazy during D time as he sees he is losing a lot Most are also terrible parents and they will try to BLAME us for stuff and justify their choices because we did or did not do... MLC is usually said to be caused by unresolved childhood trauma so maybe QLC is the same Im not sure but it makes sense if this is true then you will have little control over this situation and your H will have to figure out his own healing process or NOT..ands usually not
He laughed at the implication he was suffering in any way. Jokingly said "I don't have any childhood trauma." But he also said he is not 100% happy and is seeing a counsellor. I hope he figures it out eventually.
I agreed to swap the unavailable weekends. I agreed to the weekend overnight, but said I'd be more comfortable with only 24 hours away from home as it's the first time away and he's not yet 2 years old. I said I had plans with S and my family on Christmas Day, but he was welcome to take him for the whole day on Boxing Day. I added that I hope he understands I'm under no obligation to accommodate changes to the current schedule so his gratitude is appreciated.
Everything is fine until the last sentence. Telling him to be grateful is A) pointless and B) likely to get him riled up. What's it's NOT likely to do is make him think "Yeah, she's being so nice, I appreciate that".
Don't engage in tugs of war. Be kind and take the high road. Don't be a doormat but it's ok to accommodate where you can IF it doesn't mess up your own plans too much.
He told me he doesn't trust my motives when it comes to S, which I KNOW is absolute rubbish and the kind of thing a person who is used to operating under ulterior motives would say. He hasn't responded and I can't seem to calm down knowing what kind of response I will probably get.
When he say things like - he doesn’t trust your motives - say “I’m sorry you feel that way”.
You don’t have ulterior motives, but he feels you do - so it’s not rubbish to him. Remember he is angry and justifying stuff with lies and half truths. So acknowledge his feelings with “I’m sorry you feel that way”.
Do keep expectations down to minimum. He may respond as you “expect”. He may ignore you. He may respond differently. I know how difficult it is to calm down. Breath and focus on you. Don’t worry about his response, deal with it when, or if, it arrives.
Originally Posted by scout12
It makes me incredibly sad that enforcing boundaries just adds fuel to the fire he has raging at me. It's clear he doesn't understand that consequences =/= punishment. I just feel like this is putting nails into the coffin of our marriage. If I give in to his manipulation and demands, he will be happier with me and around me, and perhaps reconsider whether I'm worth leaving, but I will have compromised my integrity. If I enforce boundaries to protect myself and S, I'm pushing him further away by confirming that I'm exactly the bad person he says I am, but I will feel safer and happier in the long run.
If you give in to his manipulations and demands, pretzel yourself, he will find new things to complain and blame you for. And then you can start all over again pretzeling.
He needs to look within himself. You cannot make him do that. Only he can make himself happy. That is not your job.
Boundaries are for you and son; stick to them. These are not manipulations to fix a marriage, they are protection against unhealthy behaviours, words, criticisms, etc.. from H that will hurt and/or debilitate you. Do not worry if it adds some fuel to his fire, you need the boundary, regardless of what he perceives - it is for you.
And, just so you know, from an emotionally stable guy - gals with integrity and self worth are very attractive and worth sticking around for. Do not sell yourself short, and that again has nothing to do with H. However, it may just cause him to take a second look and become interested in what and how you are doing so well. That would be a bonus, the real goal is you and your self worth.
All LBS get in a cycle and it takes some time to figure one’s way out of it. Listen to the hard earned wisdom of those who have gone before; this is a counterintuitive process. It does feel wrong at first, until you get it.
Focus on you and stay strong.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
You're right, kml. I was reacting to his demanding tone. I struggle very much with him making demands on our child's time after he abandoned us. There was one incident in the first couple of weeks after he walked out that S had tonsillitis and a seizure overnight. I was sick with strep throat and struggling to handle everything. I asked H if he could please come over and help me with S. He said a flat no. But then wanted to take him to the beach that weekend.
I need to work on being less reactionary. Issues concerning S are my biggest trigger point.
Hey DnJ. Thank you for your comments about the attractiveness of integrity and self-worth. I know you are right.
Originally Posted by DnJ
When he say things like - he doesn’t trust your motives - say “I’m sorry you feel that way”.
You don’t have ulterior motives, but he feels you do - so it’s not rubbish to him. Remember he is angry and justifying stuff with lies and half truths. So acknowledge his feelings with “I’m sorry you feel that way”.
This is hard for me. I've got to put down the sword defending myself. It just gives credence to his lies and turns half-truths into facts.
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If you give in to his manipulations and demands, pretzel yourself, he will find new things to complain and blame you for. And then you can start all over again pretzeling.
This is true. I feel he holds me to an impossible standard. I take the high road 99% of the time and there's no acknowledgement, then the 1% I slip up, show emotion, react badly, I'm crucified for it. It does my head in.
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All LBS get in a cycle and it takes some time to figure one’s way out of it. Listen to the hard earned wisdom of those who have gone before; this is a counterintuitive process. It does feel wrong at first, until you get it.
I definitely need all the advice I can get. It's been five months and I feel like I'm back at the beginning again.
I need to work on being less reactionary. Issues concerning S are my biggest trigger point.
I am reading an amazing book on healing from cluster B abuse. It's called, "Whole Again," by Jackson MacKenzie. I wish I had read it at the start of my stand. My H was not an abuser before MLC but he is definitely one now. This book is about how to discover and heal your wound, and it starts with being aware that your wound is in your body. I know the physical reaction you describe very well. It is very real. But it is in your body, not your mind as much. I really recommend you read this book so you can stop being hard on yourself for not doing DB right or not being where you want to be with your H. You are going through a trauma and it gets very hard to keep a clear head. You are also one flesh, and ripping one flesh in two is very painful. Your reaction to your H around your son is totally normally, and it is not normal for a 2-year old to be away from Mama overnight. So you are very right to try to limit the overnights as much as possible. You will feel really awful the night he is away, and that is the right response too, as painful as it is. You are a mom and you love your child and want to protect him from all pain. You may have to let your H take him but you never have to feel like this is a normal way to live. It isn't! You are here to help your child weather this storm, not pretend that we all love diving into a hurricane. Please read the book and forgive yourself! And when you are able to, go no contact. I wish I had done it years ago. You can't rationalize with your H, and he will be horrible to you for a long time to come. You have to cut off all communication that isn't necessary to protect yourself. I can see you spiraling just like i did, for many years. So here is a big hug from MLC-battle-scarred Gerda. ((((((Scout))))))))
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Gerda, thank you for your kind words of reassurance. I just ordered the book you mentioned.
Funny you mention no contact, as I have decided with the help of my psychologist this week to initiate NC. I had already been low contact/smart contact but I have a terrible habit of getting sucked into conversations, letting him pull the wool over my eyes and spin me around, and then shove me out into the blinding light with no clue how I got there!
Your comments on custody made me think. After an initial period of shock and disappointment, H's parents have made it clear they support their son, no matter what. Which is only fair and to be expected. But they have insinuated that the custody arrangement is unfair to H, which is beyond unfair to put back onto me when I didn't ask and would never choose to be a single parent. Again - consequences do not equal punishment. I willingly shouldered that burden because nothing is more important to me than S1's wellbeing. It's clear that the view in H's family now is that I'm keeping S1 away from him. I know I need to rise above this mistaken belief and keep proving that I am accommodating where possible and appropriate given S1's age. But it is very hard knowing that these people have suspicions about my character. It hurts my pride.
Kind of extrapolating on H's family dynamic here. Soon after he walked out, FIL was of the opinion that he just needed to sit him down and tell him to pull his head in. His reasons for leaving were so non-sensical and nobody could understand. MIL fell to pieces begging him not to do that, because she feared that H would cut them off altogether if confronted. How terrible to feel you can't be honest with your son because he holds that kind of power over your head. H is a very manipulative man.
This is hard for me. I've got to put down the sword defending myself. It just gives credence to his lies and turns half-truths into facts.
Yes it’s hard.
A sword attacks. A shield defends.
A validating comment, with one’s ego out of the equation, is a great shield. It quashes his attack with such elegance. You are basically agreeing with him, and not, at the same time. You agree with his feelings and yet state your non-acceptance of their fact. And your correct getting dragged into a war of words just adds to his justifications.
Originally Posted by scout12
I feel he holds me to an impossible standard. I take the high road 99% of the time and there's no acknowledgement, then the 1% I slip up, show emotion, react badly, I'm crucified for it. It does my head in.
99% is really good.
Be sure you are not holding yourself to an impossible standard as well. We’ve all been emotional. Had our emotions get the best of us. It’s ok.
Taking the high road gets easier and easier as this goes on. A few tips to help. Put a delay into a conversation. This gives you a chance to calm down, figure out what you want, think, and believe you should say, instead of saying what you’re feeling.
When texting or emailing, wait 24 hours before replying. 48 hours if you’re really aggregated.
A bit more difficult during face to face discussions. However, you can say “I need some time to think about that”. Then get back to him with a reasoned out approach, not an emotional lash out. (Not that you lash out too often)
You are starting NC, so conversations are going to be limited. Stick to business at hand, and think shield not attack. H is going to push your buttons to try to get you to engage. Stick to the high road and let him be.
You are not going to get any acknowledgement from H for your walking the high road - or not much if it is any. That’s ok. You take the high road for you. It will make you feel better, and it is good inner growth.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Sorry to hear your H has dragged you through another s@#t storm again. In reading your reactions and thoughts, I have very, very similar tendencies to you. As KML sagely points out, it will almost invariably be something to do with your childhood. I'd recommend looking at videos on internal family systems. There's an English guy who does very good ones.
I won't say what I thought of H's reaction to your call for help when your S was sick and you were too. If it's any comfort, I'm surprised you're not the WAS. If this type of incident happens again, galnce into your H's eyes when he is talking. If he has shark eyes, or soemthing is there you dont recognise, back away and end the conversation and get out of there. I say this because when my XW monstered me, I noticed her eyes became very different (malevolent almost), and I knew if they were like that, I could do or say nothing (and I mean nothing) to stop her monster. Just remember 'calm, calm, calm' over and over.
Glad to hear you're doing things your way at home and decorating the way you want.
Based on what you've written with recent developments, it may be time to speak to your lawyer about setting out interim parenting arrangements in writing between lawyers, pending orders. I would strongly, strongly suggest getting advice before discussing/committing to those xmas time spent requests of H, and maybe get advice to on ongoing parenting discussions/negotiations to be between you both by lawyer to lawyer only. The toxicity in the last changeover is troubling.
I'd look at speaking to your lawyer about a neutral changeover venue too, wit perhaps a 3rd party present. Familiarise yourself with section 60CC of the Family Law Act. Read all the parenting brochures and fact sheets on the Fam Court website.
Keep us posted and good luck Scout. Cheers DS
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
Where does this come from? What is your family of origin like? Is there someone in your childhood who mistreated you? Often there is a clue in people's childhood as to why they would take the word of a unstable spouse over their own knowledge of self. You will need to work this out in order to be attracted to healthy partners in the future.
I'll address this since both kml and DS asked about it. Bit unusual, but here it is. I was a competitive swimmer until the age of 18. My coach developed me from a naturally talented 9yo into a national medal winner at 15yo. As I advanced through the ranks, he became arrogant and obsessed with the celebrity that came from my performance. He pushed me beyond my physical limits in the pursuit of glory and began to deceive me mentally during training. Like giving me the main set, which I would complete, then informing me it was actually a warm-up set, and an even harder main was to follow. I would get out of the pool and hide in the toilets crying during every session. When I became injured from over-exertion, he told me I was faking it for attention, and pushed me harder. Even when I had a letter from my physio explaining the injury and required treatment. His lack of faith completely destroyed my trust in him and devastated me emotionally. Eventually he left for a new swim club when he saw I wasn't going to hit those Olympic goals. Years later I would have dreams in which he attempted to speak to me and I would scream "You don't get to talk to me any more." I worked through all of this in therapy years ago, but if I had to guess, this was the defining series of events which shaped the way I interact and react to these kind of situations.
Based on what you've written with recent developments, it may be time to speak to your lawyer about setting out interim parenting arrangements in writing between lawyers, pending orders. I would strongly, strongly suggest getting advice before discussing/committing to those xmas time spent requests of H, and maybe get advice to on ongoing parenting discussions/negotiations to be between you both by lawyer to lawyer only. The toxicity in the last changeover is troubling.
Hey again DS.
H should be receiving the consent orders for review in the next week. I'm not waiting for refi approval any more. My solicitor said the orders likely won't be final with the court until Jan/Feb, and that's if he signs straight away. She actually advocated for a non-binding parenting plan to be filed with the orders due to S's age and likelihood that the arrangements will change between now and when he starts school. She advised at that time to file new orders with a legally enforceable custody arrangement.
I don't think he has a lawyer so how would that work?
Thanks for sharing the swimming situation you suffered - that was very brave. This may be something you choose to share with your current IC as well. Sometimes there's things in our childhood too we 'forgot', which can be brought out and looked at. It happened to me. It's good to know about these things, but when it comes it's hard to face, and very hard to address.
Have you told you L about all the stuff you're enduring with H, particulalry viz parenting?
I filed our Consent Orders in the Magistrates Court (COurt of Summary Jurisdiction). Not sure what state you're in, but I'm sure you'd have some derivative of the Magistrates Court. Mine took about 2 weeks to be made and sealed. Ask your lawyer about options for filing jurisdcitions.
If he doesnt have a lawyer then your L would write to him direct.
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
Wow - so sorry about the situation with the abusive coach. Where were your parents in all this?
Often - perversely - we subconsciously pick partners as adults who reproduce that childhood trauma, so as to try to work through it with them. Can you see any ways in which your H resembled your coach?
(An example - my good friend lost her mom in childhood, and her father quickly remarried a younger woman. My friend had been the center of her father’s world and attention until she “lost him” to his new, and somewhat sexually inappropriate bride. As an adult, my friend fell in love with a married man who was trying to have an open marriage. Eventually he left his wife for my friend [ I believe his wife grew tired of the arrangement although she’d gone along with it at first]. This man was the “great love” of my friend’s life even though he had many flaws and cheated on her too eventually. Emotionally she had “won her dad away from his wife” and “healed” that wound from her childhood.
Nowadays, as an older, wiser adult, she knows she has to avoid relationships that are triangulated like that and understands how that’s rooted in her childhood. )
The challenge will be to keep your trauma about the coach separate from your interactions with your H. What’s happening with him is bad enough on its own, you don’t need to amplify it by piling on the old pain from the coach. And quite frankly, your H deserves responsibility for his own actions but doesn’t deserve to pay for the coach’s actions too.
And developing heightened awareness about the ways in which the coach experience carried over into your adult life may help prevent you from picking another inappropriate partner in the future, even if you’re attracted to them because of this primal wound.
(Examples of ways in which your experience with the coach might be affecting your choices in men: - feeling comfortable with a man who is critical or abusive and “not being attracted” to the nice guys who love you with all your flaws.
- choosing a man who is controlling because that feels familiar to the coaching relationship
- choosing a man who doesn’t treat you as an equal
- choosing a narcissist who only values you so long as you make him look good (they can be very charming at first and make you feel great, until god forbid you gain weight or become ill or in some other way fail to feed their image and ego)
- choosing a man who is likely to abandon you as the coach did, subconsciously reproducing that trauma
- putting up with bad behavior in the relationship out of fear of abandonment
your childhood may have set you up for the swim coach abuse issue and yes very brave to share
What I have noticed is most of my issues came from my early childhood and continued in different forms into teenage years and adulthood and Marriage but for me everything started young like age 2 and under Thats where we get set up with our belief system
This inner child work takes time and energy..go at your own pace..
you are still dealing with you H and once you get this part down you can diver deeper into your past if you want to heal deeper and yes this will help you in any future relationships It will also help your child grow up healthier without the issues thjat held us back one day at a time
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
Thanks all for the insights regarding childhood trauma. I hadn't really connected what happened to me then to what's happened to me now. My parents separated when I was 11, and my father was an absent/ineffectual parent. Our relationship is fine now and improving as I get older. I'm sure that had its effects too. As to the abusive coach situation, I was extremely stubborn and committed to my Olympic goal and wasn't going to let this man get in my way. My mother trusted my judgement. Neither of us realised the damage until much later.
Originally Posted by kml
(Examples of ways in which your experience with the coach might be affecting your choices in men: - feeling comfortable with a man who is critical or abusive and “not being attracted” to the nice guys who love you with all your flaws.
- choosing a man who is controlling because that feels familiar to the coaching relationship
- choosing a man who doesn’t treat you as an equal
- choosing a narcissist who only values you so long as you make him look good (they can be very charming at first and make you feel great, until god forbid you gain weight or become ill or in some other way fail to feed their image and ego)
- choosing a man who is likely to abandon you as the coach did, subconsciously reproducing that trauma
- putting up with bad behavior in the relationship out of fear of abandonment
I know I'm posting a lot at the moment, just trying to get it all out. I will start reading and contributing to other threads too.
I've become good friends with a woman around my age who works with H. He is a store manager, she's the assistant manager. When I confided in her that I suspected the OW was a 21yo casual employee of his, she agreed and said it is a badly-kept secret around the store.
OW has worked with H for two years and their relationship became noticeably suspicious - to the point where other employees commented on it - just prior to BD when they attended a work party together. My friend said that their relationship since BD has been very inappropriate - locked door meetings, favouritism and special treatment, messaging each other when he's in the office and she's on the shop floor. She said that a number of employees are ready to file a complaint with HR over it. H is on thin ice here. He could lose his job because of the imbalance of power between their positions/ages.
I met this 21yo at a work function a few months before BD. I has brought S1 along to support H. I immediately disliked her. I thought she was fake, snotty, rude, and bratty. (My friend said her nickname is Sourpuss at work and she is not well-liked. H's nickname is Teflon. What a pair!) She was there with her long-term partner who she dumped just prior to H's BD. It's a relief to finally connect all the dots, as cliche as it is.
I'm not threatened by her at all; in fact it's almost laughable. I'm a 31yo university-educated professional woman with a six-figure salary, a mortgage, and a child. She can't compete with me.
H doesn't know that I know who the OW is. While I don't give a fig about her, I'm struggling with my feelings about H. I'm finding it very hard to look him in the face or feel anything other than disgust. I'm pretty good at faking it in written communication, but until I can control my emotions in his presence, I need to be NC. I'm pretty detached from the outcome of this situation and I don't really care if NC helps or harms our relationship at this point. NC is to protect myself.
Sidenote: My friend also said that up until a few weeks ago, H was actively deceiving his employees by making up stories about doing family activities with S1 and I on the weekends as if everything was peachy. He stopped wearing his wedding ring the night of BD and his employees had all heard through the grapevine that he had left me, plus the obvious relationship with OW. As a result, they have completely lost any respect or trust in him due to his lying, deceitful behaviour.
Girl - you might not like this but my advice is to file for divorce immediately.
You make a six figure salary and he’s in danger of becoming unemployed? If he loses his job before you’re divorced YOU could end up paying HIM spousal support.
I’d get the paperwork rolling ASAP to avoid that indignity. Divorce papers are just about the financial/business end of things. It’s not an obstacle to reconciliation in and of itself. Protect yourself financially.
Good advice but here in oz where scout and I come from divorce doesn’t instantly stop spousal maintenance claim. There’s a 12 month time limit after divorce becomes final to claim maintenance.
Divorce here too just means legal end of marriage. Property settlement is tied in but not tied to the divorce in itself. Ergo you can get divorced and not have done anything for your property settlement or maintenance
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
Everyone’s situation is similar and yet unique. Events sometimes force certain actions to happen quicker for one while another can never experience it. Divorce for example.
My wife pushed for a separation and divorce right after BD. Others around here are years into their situations with no divorce settlements on the horizon.
Your situation, I do agree with kml.
The LBS walks a path towards healing and self happiness. Compassion, empathy, kindness, etc... all goals to strive for, choosing better not bitter.
The LBS also has the business side of things to contend with. Financial protection and security of themselves and their children. People in crisis do not make good parents, and do not make good decisions. The LBS, being the sane and stable of the two, needs to adjust to events as they unfold. The business side, the divorce, the financial separating, and even custody, is something one has to ensure they are cognizant of their choices and aware of their decisions and possible ramifications.
Speaking with a lawyer and seeing what you are facing and what you can do is a good start. Understanding the worst case and best case scenarios, what you can negotiate, what you can’t, etc... is all useful. Information and knowledge is power. And do not share with H, or tell him you are seeing a L, he will use it against you.
This is only gathering information. With it you can make an informed decision. And in your situation, events may unravel quicker than you want, or quicker than normal (if there is such a thing), and you will be, and want to be, ready to act.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
here in oz where scout and I come from divorce doesn’t instantly stop spousal maintenance claim. There’s a 12 month time limit after divorce becomes final to claim maintenance.
All the more reason I think to start the process. Hopefully he’ll hold onto a job for the next year but long term prospects are murky. Seems like the best chance of not ending up supporting him is to start the legal process and maybe in the meantime figure out a way for somebody else to warn him that he’s jeaopardixing his job and needs to be more circumspect with his affair? He won’t hear it from you obviously. While I understand how satisfying it might be to see them both fired, it’s going to end up costing you money, so I would figure out who COULD clue him in that he would listen to.
Last edited by job; 11/15/1908:28 PM. Reason: edited a word for kml
The legal separation is under way so I will have peace of mind once that's done. There's a mandatory twelve month waiting period before divorce can be filed. But it's really just a formality after the legal separation.
I've been reading about truth darts. Is there a consensus on the wisdom of exposing the affair? If H questions why I'm not allowing him in the house, i'm going to tell him it's because I know about OW, and that I know it was at least emotional with her before he left me, and I won't allow someone who treats me with disrespect into my home. I've also seen others on these boards tell their spouse that they will expose the affair to family/friends unless they confess themselves. What are thoughts on this?
Generally exposing the affair to family and friends is counter-productive if you still hold out hope for reconciliation. But I think it’s fine to let him know that you know he’s been having an affair. Don’t say anything about when it started - he’ll lie anyway, and you can be 100% sure it started before he dropped the bomb. (In fact, you need to see you gyn and be tested for STDs. Sorry. )
As for barring him from the house - check you legal status first. If he co-owns the house it may not be legal to change the locks. But it’s fine to establish boundaries - just don’t make it about OW, that’s giving her too much power. Try “you’ve decided not to be my husband and this is not your home any more. “
Exposing the affair is counter productive - for possible reconciliation and also that invests you into the outcome of the affair. Best to just let go and detach.
Remember this is about H, not OW. She is just a symptom, don’t elevate her or give her any power.
Oh yeah, STD testing. I forgot about that. I think pretty much everyone here goes through that. It’s a wise precaution and needed knowledge of your health.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thank you both for the advice. It didn’t feel like the right thing to do - like some kind of blackmail. The real reason I don’t want him in the house is that I still struggle to set aside my feelings and treat him the way I want to treat him, as a friend. But I can’t say that.
H finally replied to my response about his Christmas schedule. There was no rage or blame, which is what I was afraid of. It was actually more respectful than usual. He said he had a good time with S1 on Thursday and dropped him off to daycare on time (late drop offs have been an issue recently). He asked if he could come move his car out of my garage at a time that was convenient to me. He didn’t push back on my Christmas boundaries, but asked if we could compromise on pickup and drop off times for S1’s overnight away. He pointed out that it would work with S1’s nap times.
I was cordial in my reply, validated his feelings about S1, and agreed to his compromise. I thanked him for taking S1’s needs into consideration and for being proactive about the car.
I was out with S1 and friends seeing a play when H came to get the car yesterday. When I arrived home I found some of my things from the garage sitting on the driveway. They must have been blocking his car. I thought it was pretty inconsiderate to leave that stuff out where it could get stolen. He also left a bunch of his garden tools beside the garage that I asked him to please take to his new house. This has been a theme during the move-out process - he forgot to pack essential items like paperwork and his dad’s tools, but took odd things like half of a salt and pepper set of kissing lovers that we used as a wedding cake topper. It’s unlike him to be forgetful and unorganised. He still hasn’t returned the keys to the house either, which he said he would once the last of his stuff was out.
As for me: My anxiety has abated for now. I had a really fun day with friends yesterday. Enjoying prepping for Christmas. Received some great feedback at work last week. Hoping for a more peaceful week to come.
My XH left all his belongings..He took bare essentials He left all his tools and drills..( he was always very mechanical and could fix anything) He left papers and only came to get papers of importance when he was watching kids..and I was not here
like the deed to his motorcycle
He left his ss card, fancy boots and expensive shirts..and never took any of it much of it went in the dump
Funny how he took the salt/pepper shakers Really they make little sense, even to this day, I cant figure my XH out
What I can tell you is their lives usually take a turn for the worse They sometimes get hooked intio drugs, prescriptions, alcohol and that takes them further down because unless they are actively seeking Growth and healing...they spiral down remember it is the unresolved issues from his past that lead him to this state-
continue to free yourself work on healing and self care
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
Check with your lawyer about whether or not you can change the locks. In my area, you can change the locks once the spouse has removed his/her personal items and the legal separation paperwork is done. As for tools, etc., they are not considered personal.
I, too, agree that you need to have yourself checked out by your Gyn. You never know who he has hooked up w/and what he may or may not have contracted.
I had to laugh about the salt and pepper shakers, etc. They tend to take whatever strikes their fancy and they happen to see it at that time. There is no rhyme or reason for what they do. I suggest that you go around your home and thoroughly look...there may even be more items that he's taken that you aren't aware of. In fact, take photos of each room so that you can keep track of the items in your home until the locks are changed.
As for the stuff in the driveway, he didn't care if they were stolen or not. Like a teenager, they can be very forgetful and that may have been his way of telling you how he felt about having to remove items or it could have just been that he didn't think about putting stuff back. I would suggest that you place the stuff that you want him to take in one place, advise him to come get it by a certain time and if he doesn't, you will donate it, have a yard sale or you could even get a storage locker (put the lease in his name and pay the first month). They do tend to leave a lot of stuff behind and it could be his way of having an excuse to come there periodically or he just doesn't need that stuff from his old life. Whatever the reason...after you have notified him and given him a reasonable timeframe to get it, it will then be up to you as to what you want to do with it. However, be sure you document all of your communications w/him.
Continue to keep the focus on you and your family. Your h's trip to Oz has begun and it's going to take quite a bit of time for him to finish his walk on the Yellow Brick Road.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I did smile at the salt and pepper shakers. It’s weird what strikes their fancy at the moment.
You can see the teenager in H’s behaviour. Just leaving stuff out without a care of concern about it being stolen.
I like your acknowledgement of the advice not feeling like the right thing to do. Yep, counterintuitive at first. Your other stated reason is also valid and good, it takes time to get one’s feelings under control. Finding detachment and indifference is a process, and you are well on the way.
I’m glad H replied well to the Christmas schedule. Keeping our expectations at zero has the analogous of expect anything. Same kind of thing, just a different view point.
Nice to see you calmer and with less anxiety. That also takes time to find, that balance within the storm. Some more advice, realize this moment, your calmness and anxiety level. You can achieve it, you are doing it right now. Your mind now knows you can find it, your feelings will take some cycles to realize it as well, and then you will start to believe it and live it. As odd as that may or may not sound.
Enjoy your much deserved peace and calm.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I appreciate the sage advice from you all. I have to admit I never even considered getting a wellness check but sadly it seems I must assume the worst.
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Continue to keep the focus on you and your family. Your h's trip to Oz has begun and it's going to take quite a bit of time for him to finish his walk on the Yellow Brick Road.
Focusing on myself and S1 is the only thing getting me through this - thanks for the reminder to be patient, job. It feels good to be in control of the legalities and to be able to detach that process from the relationship outcome.
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Some more advice, realize this moment, your calmness and anxiety level. You can achieve it, you are doing it right now. Your mind now knows you can find it, your feelings will take some cycles to realize it as well, and then you will start to believe it and live it. As odd as that may or may not sound.
Not odd at all. This is mindfulness at its simplest, which is funny because it can be so difficult to implement. It requires a degree of SELF-detachment that itself requires a high level of emotional intelligence. I've been practicing yoga for years but never put much effort into the mental side of it until now.
Also DnJ - I found your thread and read your account of BD. I'm so so sorry that happened to you and your family. I think I was in shock reading it.
Last night I spent some time scrolling through photos from the last year, not specifically looking for red flags, but noticing little things as they popped up. It was rare for us to take photos together; aside from our wedding, we probably only have 10 photos of us as a couple in nearly 10 years. Once S1 was born I made a big effort to document our life, so I often snapped mundane little moments that had the potential to become lovely memories. H rarely offered me the same favour. Whenever we showed up in a picture this past year, the common theme in our appearances seemed to show:
Me: timid, unsure, pitiful, sad eyes, dull, unkempt Interpretation: struggling to cope, not taking care of myself, feeling alone, reacting to love withdrawal and deprioritisation
H: fake smile, bored, obsessed with screens (phone/TV/computer in nearly EVERY picture, even with S1) Interpretation: maintaining or not maintaining the facade, depending on his mood, trying to escape his unhappiness
With the benefit of time and space, I begin to question if there is anything of value in this marriage worth saving. And yet I'm still committed to my marriage and the vows I gave.
Just reflecting further on those thoughts. Did I drive him away with those behaviours? Even though they were likely part of our dynamic and not my personality?
Scout - you did not cause this and you could not stop it. Sadly, anyone who “snaps” in this fashion is broken and has poor coping skills. It’s a train no one can stop.
Curious - in those photos, do you see h has “shark eyes,” - cold, dead eyes?
My ex h had a tough time turning 30. He had an MLC in his early 40’s. Looking back at old photos, he had shark eyes upon turning 30. I downplayed it as silly because aging was never an issue for me so I never imagined it could be for him. I mean we can’t stop time from marching on so why worry about it; that was my philosophy, anyway. Aging was a HUGE issue for him; every single year was a slog for him.
Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13 BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room" 8/15: H back to MBR 10/15: H back in dorm room 1/18: H files, now divorced
Nothing you did caused this and you cant control it nor stop it
There are things all of us can reflect on in our M that we did wrong..that is life and we are not perfect
Its good to know what you would change and start practicing the new patterns as much as you can
If you want to stand for your M, practice new skills with him
Gal, confidence, kindness, friendship...overlooking all his behavior
Setting boundries when needed...kindly, firmly especially around OW and child- this will also make the separation process easier
As I reflect..I can see also my xh being discontent in his mid thirties and after our 2nd child was born and he became successfull...he snapped
I dont think his script from childhood could allow him to succeed, so instead he followed the call to fail and let everything he had go..and it was a lot-i including his kids, business and sobriety
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
It was rare for us to take photos together; aside from our wedding, we probably only have 10 photos of us as a couple in nearly 10 years.
This is a red flag right here. Why wasn't he snapping selfies with his lovely bride? Why weren't others taking photos of you two together and sending them to you? Especially early in a marriage, those things are normal. (Even in the pre-cell phone days, I have lots of photos of me and my ex husband together from the early years of our marriage. Even from the end, actually, but he had shark eyes in those.)
I'm getting the feeling that whatever is wrong with your husband now, he was never the husband you deserved even early in the relationship. The best thing about a good relationship is being truly seen by your partner and valued for who you really are. A relationship without that becomes very painful and drains the life out of you.
You are questioning whether your behavior was the cause - it wasn't. A man who truly loves his wife would be loving and attentive through a postpartum depression or whatever, and would at least try counseling if he was unhappy in the marriage. You can't fix his mental illness or personality disorder or just lack of values, whatever it is.
I'm curious - did he ever show signs of dishonesty in small things before? My ex was not a dishonest person per se, but was more willing to bend the rules than a straight arrow like I was. Little things like lying to return something, or a bigger thing like giving paid lectures that were actually prohibited by his employer. I suspect that if I had not been the one doing the taxes, he might have cheated a little on those too. I realize that lots of people think those kinds of things are normal, but not me. And I think it's a slippery slope of justification that makes things like affairs easier to lie about too. I should have paid more attention to this trait in him when we were dating.
Also DnJ - I found your thread and read your account of BD. I'm so so sorry that happened to you and your family. I think I was in shock reading it.
Thanks for reading along.
Yeah, that night was quite a shock.
I spun in pretty hard.
I’m serious when I talk about what an incredible opportunity this is for the LBS. True, I wish it didn’t happen, and Im pretty sure I wouldn’t change it even if I could. I like love my life.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I'm getting the feeling that whatever is wrong with your husband now, he was never the husband you deserved even early in the relationship. The best thing about a good relationship is being truly seen by your partner and valued for who you really are. A relationship without that becomes very painful and drains the life out of you.
I am starting to believe this.
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You are questioning whether your behavior was the cause - it wasn't. A man who truly loves his wife would be loving and attentive through a postpartum depression or whatever, and would at least try counseling if he was unhappy in the marriage. You can't fix his mental illness or personality disorder or just lack of values, whatever it is.
We attended MC about six months before he left - at my insistence. I was feeling desperate, ignored, and unsupported enough that I told him if things didn't change, I would leave. We went three or four times and the psychologist told us that most couples attend counselling when it's too late, but that we just seemed to need some small corrections. Funny in hindsight. That psychologist is now my IC and he is of the opinion that H is on the NPD spectrum. He gave some insights about our MC sessions that he didn't share at the time - he felt H was blase, didn't take it seriously, and was more concerned about how he appeared than actually achieving any outcomes.
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I'm curious - did he ever show signs of dishonesty in small things before?
100% yes. Both avoidance and active deception, mainly towards his parents, but also me. It took three years for him to tell his parents he had a girlfriend and that we were planning to move in together. He failed out of uni due to non-attendance (video game addiction) and told his parents for a year afterwards that he was getting good grades and on track to graduate. He took out a $10k loan on a casual wage to buy a sports car at age 20 and didn't tell his parents or let them see the car for a long time. He took out a $6k loan to buy a motorbike when we moved in together without telling me - just turned up with it one day when we were trying to save for a house deposit. Even for happy events - when we got engaged, when we got pregnant - he clammed up in front of his parents and hid the news until they asked him directly, or I told them! I understand hiding bad news, but why good news?
His behaviour stinks of rebellion and entitlement, doesn't it? It wasn't this clear to me at the time. What the heck is he fighting so hard against? From what I understand of his upbringing, he wasn't denied much and was always a high achiever. As a teen he would brag about having all the newest and best things because his dad was well-off. In the last year of our marriage he became obsessed with wealth and growing it fast enough to retire early. His retirement dream? Buying a $150k supercar at age 40 and driving around Europe. Not sure how his wife and would-be teenage son figured into that plan... And yet, he took out a $50k loan this time last year to buy a brand new truck, ostensibly for me, that I didn't want and wasn't comfortable spending money on, against my wishes. Which he took in the settlement and now belongs to him, debt and all.
It doesn't make a lot of sense, until I reread this quote from peacetoday:
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I dont think his script from childhood could allow him to succeed, so instead he followed the call to fail and let everything he had go
Is he programmed to self-sabotage? There are so many questions I won't ever know the answers to.
Hey scout just checking in on you. How’s the legal stuff progressing? How’s S coping? Make sure you enjoy every minute when he’s so young because they grow up so quickly
I trust changeovers have been ok?
I’m going to respectfully disagree with some of the vets about driving the spouse away - in some instances. In my sitch, things had reached a stage where I was drained emotionally and spiritually. I was negative quite often and I’m sure I gave off a bad vibe sometimes. Work was never ending and there was a self critical self doubting monkey on my shoulder whispering in my ear. I now know through ic this is a subconscious coping/defence mechanism learned in childhood. The thing is when your subconscious behaviours kick in you can’t see your body language, your tone, and all those other little things your spouse or other people pick up on. I’ve realised this now. My cup was empty and I didn’t know how to refill it. These are things I’ve worked on as a 180
Mind you my XW would tell me about my ‘negativity’ but sometimes this was me critically analysing the situation or being realistic. It didn’t help that she was big on telling me what to do but needed improvement in actually helping achieve what she wanted me to do or be. Her bossiness was something we’d make light of but my negativity was treated like an illness.
Hope that gives food for thought. Cheers DS
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
Wow, Scout, those were some giant waving red flags of erratic behavior, financial irresponsibility, and dishonest behavior that you blew right past. One of the important things to learn right now is why you ignored those red flags and how not to ignore them in future relationships.
In a relationship with a narcissist, you are only valuable to them so long as you are making them look good and going along with what they want to do. I still suspect a possible element of mania as well, as this is such an unrealistic scenario (he's a store manager but he's going to save up - while spending erratically - and retire in his 40's with enough money to afford a $150k car??? people who get super frugal can definitely retire in their 40's but not to a life of profligate spending unless they are Silicon Valley millionaires.
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Mind you my XW would tell me about my ‘negativity’ but sometimes this was me critically analysing the situation or being realistic.
Interesting - my narcissistic and slightly manic ex also would accuse me of being negative when I was just analytically evaluating a situation - I guess it interfered with his fantasies.
Hey scout just checking in on you. How’s the legal stuff progressing? How’s S coping? Make sure you enjoy every minute when he’s so young because they grow up so quickly
I trust changeovers have been ok?
Hey DS, things have been calm the last week. No interaction except pleasantries at the front door. Consent orders are still being drawn up, hopefully will be delivered soon. S is a joy at this age, he will be two in February. He’s a little sponge soaking up language and learning about the world. I’m very proud of his behaviour, he gives and receives big smiles whenever we are out and about. He just has a gentle, friendly nature. He’s a remarkable child, in my humble opinion.
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I’m going to respectfully disagree with some of the vets about driving the spouse away - in some instances. In my sitch, things had reached a stage where I was drained emotionally and spiritually. I was negative quite often and I’m sure I gave off a bad vibe sometimes. Work was never ending and there was a self critical self doubting monkey on my shoulder whispering in my ear. I now know through ic this is a subconscious coping/defence mechanism learned in childhood. The thing is when your subconscious behaviours kick in you can’t see your body language, your tone, and all those other little things your spouse or other people pick up on. I’ve realised this now. My cup was empty and I didn’t know how to refill it. These are things I’ve worked on as a 180
That’s some good self-awareness. I don’t think you are wrong, either. I remember telling H several times after S was born, and even up until he left, that not only was my cup empty, it had holes in it, so I couldn’t give him or anyone else much. In my mind, this was a temporary situation caused by the birth of the baby and I was taking steps to address it with counselling and medication. Maybe he just got sick of waiting for things to improve; it had been 15 months of despair, anger and rejection for him at that point.
I know I gave off bad vibes too. My internal voice was so negative and I couldn’t escape it. It regularly told me to drive my car off the road when the baby was screaming in the back. I cried to H many times that I wanted to disappear from my life. I considered throwing the baby across the room when he wouldn’t sleep. In short, I cycled between incredibly depressed and incredibly anxious. It would have been a nightmare to handle and probably very frightening for H. I’m sure it seemed like a jail sentence if this was how the rest of his life was going to be.
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Wow, Scout, those were some giant waving red flags of erratic behavior, financial irresponsibility, and dishonest behavior that you blew right past.
In hindsight, yes. Chalk it up to inexperience in relationships, believing the best in him, and well, loving him completely enough to overlook his flaws.
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Mind you my XW would tell me about my ‘negativity’ but sometimes this was me critically analysing the situation or being realistic.
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Interesting - my narcissistic and slightly manic ex also would accuse me of being negative when I was just analytically evaluating a situation - I guess it interfered with his fantasies.
Yes, this sounds very similar to the dynamic in my relationship too.
Scout - I just want you to know, you are not responsible for your postpartum depression. This is a biochemical thing that happens to some women. Yes, it can be stressful on a marriage, but if you had been married to a better man, he would have worked to understand it and help you through it. To a narcissist, though, if you get sick you’re no longer valuable to them (hmmm, see how this echoes the coach?). From everything you’ve told us about your H in his younger days, this depression of yours is just what revealed who he always was.
I was married for 24 years to a man who I only realized after the fact had narcissistic traits. I too blew past some red flags (not as crazy as your H’s though!) When I became ill with Graves hyperthyroidism, a condition that ended up being somewhat disabling for several years, he never showed the slightest interest in knowing more about it or going to a doctors visit with me ( even though we were both MDs and he could have done valuable research for me). At the time I just struggled through it but now I realize that a real loving partner would have behaved much differently than he did.
Thank you kml. I'm sorry to hear that you experienced similar mistreatment from your XH with your illness. It's shocking once you take a step back from the toxicity and realise how dysfunctional and unhealthy the dynamic was. Making things more confusing for me is that H is my only relationship to date, so I have nothing to compare against.
My H's attitude towards my PND is best described as hands-off. Like a pat on the head - "there, there" - and a robotic inquiry of "what do you need?" The implication being, go and sort yourself out and come back when you're fixed. I remember one night calling him in tears and begging him to come home from work because I couldn't cope with the baby a minute longer. He said no, he'd be home at his scheduled time in an hour. Wow!
Looking back now, I'm sad that the first year of my son's life is tainted with such dark memories, and his second year will be shadowed by his father's abandonment. Hoping for a better third year
You're right that it does echo the coach. That's quite fascinating.
Having no contact with H is doing wonders for me. I feel like I'm leaving him in the dust, and looking in my rearview mirror, I feel... nothing. While I do believe he is experiencing a transitional crisis, likely brought on by the pregnancy/birth of our son, it also seems like he is simply a man who lacks integrity, honesty, courage; all the qualities I value above all else, and wish to instill in my son.
He moved out four days after BD. During that time, I asked him if he regretted becoming a father. He hesitated for a very long time before answering "I don't know. Sometimes". Our son was a planned baby, so that was hard to hear at the time. Now, it makes me determined to protect S1 from H's indifference.
My H's attitude towards my PND is best described as hands-off. Like a pat on the head - "there, there" - and a robotic inquiry of "what do you need?" The implication being, go and sort yourself out and come back when you're fixed.
Wow, that's just awful Scout, I'm so sorry you experienced this. Can I say this really resonated with me because I had a back injury a few years ago and basically got the same type of treatment, like it was an inconvenience to my XW. Then again, I shouldn't have been surprised, because i was told point black several times that she has no empathy. To her credit, she was very vocal and persistent in telling me what I should be doing to fix it, wanting me to operate even though I wasn't a candidate, and was very concenred about the risks anyway. I was left feeling as though she didn't care to the extent it didn't effect her. "Do something about it!" was her mantra whenever I was unwell. There were moments of tenderness though when she told me she wanted me to be well, so we could grow old and die together like in the Tom Cruise movie Oblivion, which was our favourite movie, that I can never watch again. It was all so, so confusing. Sorry, rant over.
Originally Posted by scout12
integrity, honesty, courage; all the qualities I value above all else, and wish to instill in my son.
These are wonderful qualities, and your son is lucky you are there for him.
The impression I get from your comments is that your H was seemingly like he is throughout. Is that right, or did he change for the worse? I sincerely hope H comes around and returns a far better H and father.
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
"Do something about it!" - wow, really? That's ice cold. Inconvenient is exactly how I'd describe it. Like a blot on their otherwise picturesque life. My H would also tell me how to fix things and had little patience or empathy for things he did not or could not understand.
Well, now I'm not sure what was truth regarding his character. He had some good qualities - he was funny, affectionate, intelligent, friendly. Gosh, I'm really struggling to think of positive meaningful characteristics to describe him. Kind? Not intrinsically. Thoughtful? When it was expected, for special occasions. Empathetic? Definitely not. Judgemental, weak, shallow - yes. Deep down, I knew these things about him. I loved him anyway. It seems more and more likely that this is simply his character and the mask slipped. Perhaps he had to run away because I saw the real him.
I honestly don't know if he's capable of better. He said two weeks ago that he was in counselling. That he spends an hour a day exercising, meditating, communing with nature. I wouldn't have expected him to be so willingly introspective. I wonder what he is learning about himself, if anything.
Do I sound bitter? I don't feel that way. For years I accepted him for who he was, perhaps to my own detriment. It's kind of freeing to realise I do still accept him, it just doesn't have to affect me any more.
Again scout a pleasure and glad to help you with your self reflection.
Yes she would really say that even when there was nothing that could really be done. Thankfully I was not often ill.It’s awful to remember but a few days after my dad passed I was still recovering and I remember her getting angry and yelling at me for being withdrawn and telling me to snap out of it. It’s like I was under her spell. I always felt less than worthy of this strong powerful woman and the fact she pursued me made me feel like I was someone special and obligated to compromise how I felt. She loved me but didn’t respect me I think. That she was quite insecure about what I saw in her and that I would leave her only added to my confusion.
That’s great your h is getting counseling! That is really positive and I want you to think positive about it too. I only wish my XW would get it.
No you don’t sound bitter at all. It helps telling your story. I think unlike you I didn’t accept all my xw’s faults, but I did love her unconditionally and would do anything for her if that makes sense
I think, like you, I didn’t have much to compare her with as my previous long term relationship ended up with me essentially being her carer due to illness so it was a relief when that finished and meeting my XW later and how different she was
Anyway, what gal have you and your son got planned for the weekend?
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
I had cancer a year after BD1. I had all these bags hanging off me that had to be drained and he did it the first day but then I looked at his phone and saw he had been texting OW while I was on the operating table under the screen name,"My Secret Other Wife." I told him he couldn't help me with anything if he was doing that and he told me it had been over with her but he was so scared when I was in surgery that he wrote to her because she was his only friend. He agreed it wasn't right and said he would end it again.
I don't think H ever even made me a cup of tea, and I was back to cooking for the kids two days after my mastectomy, back at work at the biz we shared after two weeks and he had done nothing there while I was gone.
Now it's five years since cancer. He seemed to be coming out of it in 2017 but then he filed last year and the same OW is leaving her H for him and helping pay for his apt since he has convinced everyone that he shouldn't have to work more than 6 hours a week.
NOTHING CAN WAKE THEM UP. Back pain?! Not even cancer!!!
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Do I sound bitter? I don't feel that way. For years I accepted him for who he was, perhaps to my own detriment. It's kind of freeing to realise I do still accept him, it just doesn't have to affect me any more.
I relate to this. I wouldn’t take my ex back for a million bucks, but when his actions are hurtful to our adult children, I do try to point out how it stems from his essential unhappiness - and remind them that they are not responsible for his happiness.
As for your H getting counseling and meditating - I wouldn’t pin much hope on that. Actually sounds to me more like QLC - getting buff, selfish “self improvement”, etc. I’d be surprised if the counseling is about why he is blowing up his marriage and family; it’s probably more about how he can achieve his dream life.
I fought hard against the end of my marriage, but a few months after he finally left, I realized how nice it was not to be walking on eggshells all the time. I think that’s what You’re experiencing now too.
I’d be surprised if the counseling is about why he is blowing up his marriage and family; it’s probably more about how he can achieve his dream life.
Funny you say that, kml. He did phone counselling in the first six weeks after BD. He said the marriage wasn’t discussed at all. They only talked about how he could make himself happier.
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I fought hard against the end of my marriage, but a few months after he finally left, I realized how nice it was not to be walking on eggshells all the time. I think that’s what You’re experiencing now too.
I had cancer a year after BD1. I had all these bags hanging off me that had to be drained and he did it the first day but then I looked at his phone and saw he had been texting OW while I was on the operating table under the screen name,"My Secret Other Wife." I told him he couldn't help me with anything if he was doing that and he told me it had been over with her but he was so scared when I was in surgery that he wrote to her because she was his only friend. He agreed it wasn't right and said he would end it again.
Gerda, that is awful! Awful, awful. I’m so sorry you had to experience that on top of cancer treatment. its good to hear you are clear now. I sometimes think if got into a car accident or something that required hospital, would H care? Would he show up or call?
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I don't think H ever even made me a cup of tea, and I was back to cooking for the kids two days after my mastectomy, back at work at the biz we shared after two weeks and he had done nothing there while I was gone.
Wow. What happened to sharing the load? Not even a cup of tea?! I remember sitting in the rocking chair, crying, holding my sleeping baby a few days after giving birth. Just sitting and feeling the hormone crash, trying to process the birth trauma, dazed from lack of sleep, in pain from the stitches. H came in with a chore list and said we could do half each. I just looked at him like what the actual f*ck, tears falling down my cheeks. He just didn’t get it.
Met my friend who works with H for breakfast this morning. She said the OW quit this week. Is this a good thing? It means she and H won't be around each other all day every day. It also means they don't have to sneak around at work any more. It might also mean their relationship is getting more serious and they are trying to legitimise it.
It was supposed to be H's day with S1 today. He emailed that he was unavailable. My friend said he isn't working today so I wonder what he's doing that's more important than his biweekly day with S1. It also takes away my one day a fortnight that I normally get to run errands on my own and just have a break from parenting.
Finally, she said that H has ditched the group of 18-21 year olds he had been spending all his time with. Apparently he has also given up the gokart racing hobby he devoted so much time to immediately after BD.
I know this is a bunch of information that could mean anything or nothing.
Poor little S1 is sick, so we are having a quiet day at home putting up the Christmas tree and listening to carols. Making memories wishing you all a lovely weekend.
Document document document. Keep track of every time he doesn’t take his visitation. It may come in handy in the future. (And if you want him to take it, simply tell him you have other plans and are bringing the boy to his house, but I suspect you would rather have more custody in the long run).
Enjoy your son, enjoy the present. Don’t let H’s issues rob you of joy today.
And whatever the reason for OW leaving her job, be glad, because now he’s less likely to lose his job and file for spousal support.
(And if you want him to take it, simply tell him you have other plans and are bringing the boy to his house, but I suspect you would rather have more custody in the long run)
He won’t tell me where he lives because he thinks I’m keeping tabs on him. I said if he won’t give me his address in case of emergency, then I’m not comfortable with S1 going there. He currently has visitation at my house, or takes S1 out for the day. Stubborn fool.
None of them will tell you where they live. Mine has moved three times. Each time I found out from some external source. It's the secrecy and keeping their lives "private." I told mine that he couldn't see my son while my number was blocked in case I needed to reach him. He unblocked me. Maintain your boundaries. Even in divorce he would be required to give you that address, so there is no reason for him not to give it now. Because your son is so young, make him do the visitation at your house if he won't give it. Say that in a writing and keep the writing as KML suggests. Then if he challenges you later, you can show the writing and say you were not comfortable with such a young child being taken to an unknown location.
The sooner you can detach from caring about what he and the OW are doing, the better for you, and the better DBer you will be. I'm a total hypocrite on that. Every newbie does the same thing. But the reality is you can't effect any change and all it will do is hurt you to keep tabs. A wonderful poster here used to quote "constant wondering is constant suffering." Choose not to wonder so that you don't have to suffer.
MLCer are secretive. Oh, I mean private - they hate being called secretive. Lol. Just like a teenager.
However, if he is taking S1, then you need to know where he is and how to contact him. Period. And just like a teenage - too bad if he doesn’t like it. That’s the boundary, the rules. He can choose to be a stubborn fool all he wants.
It is interesting that OW quit. Your reasoning might be correct or could be something else. Time will tell. However, I’ve been there, where you are, asking, pondering, so... - Yes, it’s a good thing.
It’s nice to hear that you’re putting up the tree. D17 and I have started to decorate the house. No tree yet, in another week or so they are available.
Sing to the carols and have a great Sunday.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Today was not H's usual morning with S1, but he had asked to swap and I agreed. As always, I was getting S1 excited about Dad's visit while I got ready for work. Arrival time passes and we're sitting waiting. Five minutes pass, then ten, then fifteen. I have to leave or I'll miss my train to work. I guess that H has forgotten about the switched day so I tell S1 we're going to daycare instead. I'm buckling him in his car seat when H pulls into the driveway.
He knows that I have to catch a certain train to get to work on time. He is 5-10 minutes late EVERY single morning and I have not said anything for months. This morning, he walked right past me into the house while I was unloading poor confused S1 and his school bag from the car. No hello, no sorry, nothing.
I said "Next time you are one minute late, I'm taking S1 to daycare. You cause problems like this and then call me a b*tch for reacting to them. It's so disrespectful."
Silence, sulky look on his face, ignores me while he tries to force S1 into a hug.
"Not going to say anything?"
Petulantly, he muttered he was sorry.
I said it was ridiculous and like dealing with a child. S1 was squirming and trying to get away from H. I told S1 I loved him and said goodbye.
Unfortunately, I was not very calm during this short exchange. I didn't scream or shout, but I was emphatic and probably visibly angry. Why do I feel like I've failed every time I react emotionally? Nine times out of ten, I hold my tongue and stay calm and kind and he takes advantage of it. The one time I react, it reinforces the narrative that I'm a mean, controlling b*tch.
Should I have just duct taped my mouth and said nothing?
Just venting now. Co-parenting is impossible with this man! He cannot or will not communicate. I have no desire to be the dictator when it comes to S1 but he forces me into that position. Our son is a BABY and there is a minimum level of communication required between parents.
He has never once asked for information about S1 that might affect his time with him - how is he feeling, is he unwell, has he slept, does he need to eat etc. He also never volunteers information that I should reasonably know as the custodial parent - he tripped and scraped his knee today, he didn't nap well, he threw up after lunch etc. I share information with him as required - he needs to see a doctor, I'm taking him for a haircut, he needs milk for daycare etc.
It boggles the mind. Everyone has accepted the relationship is over, so let's move on and do the best thing for our child. What does he gain from making that process harder?
How hard would it have been for him to call me from the car once he realised he would be 15 minutes late this morning? Is there some pathological need to create conflict with me? I feel like I'm going crazy.
Just letting you know I really feel for you this morning, and what you're again going through with the father. I have some thoughts to share but am jammed right now so will come back to you soon, ok. PS you didnt do anything wrong!
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
You did fine! You set an appropriate boundary ("if you are late I will take son to childcare").
Next time don't say anything, just be gone when he gets there. Actions speak louder than words. He saw you ready to leave today. Maybe he'll start to be more on time - if not, you just leave for daycare.
(Be sure to set your departure time to include time to drop son at daycare).
As for the co-parenting communication - set your expectations very low. You can set a good example, but I wouldn't expect much back from him right now. Just document everything, in case he decides later to save money by fighting for 50:50 custody. Some people here have used some software especially for divorced parents to communicate schedules and such - I have no experience with it but others here might advise you, it seems to have been a good way to keep communications neutral.
Do you think it's reached a stage where you contact your L and have your L write to H about ongoing arrangements for S pending the Orders - essentially if H wants a variation he goes through your L. That will take the pressure off you immensely.
Check out R2C's boundaries template, essentially-
When you XXXX I feel XXXX I want you to XXXX If you continue XXXXX I will XXXXX I appreicate you XXXXX
I see you have reservations about co parenting, and rightfully so. Make sure your L has spoken to you about sole and joint parental responsibility. Perhaps H needs PPP H, factored into the orders?
Documenting is good, but just bear in mind that if you just document, but don't 'do anything' about it at the time, it could be worthless longer term in the event of going to Court. Again, your L ought to be informed so as to advise you about what steps you can take with H to cement and address these ongoing issues.
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
Do you think it's reached a stage where you contact your L and have your L write to H about ongoing arrangements for S pending the Orders - essentially if H wants a variation he goes through your L. That will take the pressure off you immensely.
...
I see you have reservations about co parenting, and rightfully so. Make sure your L has spoken to you about sole and joint parental responsibility. Perhaps H needs PPP H, factored into the orders?
Documenting is good, but just bear in mind that if you just document, but don't 'do anything' about it at the time, it could be worthless longer term in the event of going to Court. Again, your L ought to be informed so as to advise you about what steps you can take with H to cement and address these ongoing issues.
I really don't know what to do, DS. He makes me feel like I'm not being cool, relaxed, chill enough if I mention the repeated late arrivals/dropoffs. It feels very serious to put it in writing through solicitors. My perspective may be warped, though. I was shaking after this morning's confrontation. I'm still terrified of being seen as rocking the boat.
I just did some reading on sole parental responsibility. I don't know if I have grounds to file for that, even though it would make things easier. It sounds like a complicated process. I'm hoping to stay out of court altogether. I will look into Triple P programs to see if that might help.
You did fine! You set an appropriate boundary ("if you are late I will take son to childcare").
Next time don't say anything, just be gone when he gets there. Actions speak louder than words. He saw you ready to leave today. Maybe he'll start to be more on time - if not, you just leave for daycare.
I feel guilty for getting angry For some reason whenever I break DB principles, I feel intense guilt. I am satisfied with the boundary I set, though, and will absolutely follow through if he tests me again.
I totally get those feelings. My view is that who on earth would be cool and relaxed when the other parent is late for changeover, with no warning, and you're struggling there wondering what's happening and looking at your watch wondering if you're going to be late for work. That's not you rocking the boat at all. That's boundary stuff. You're not rocking the boat - H is. The thing is, H is just rocking YOUR boat. He's in his boat, chugging along, splashing you with his wake, grabbing your bow and rocking it. I'm worried that this type of thing is making you shake. That's a horrible, horrible feeling. Do you do breathing exercises to bring that down? Make sure you have a go to girlfriend that you can vent with and talk about your feelings - nothing replaces a firend you can call 24/7/365 when the proverbial hits the fan with emotions.
How about typing up an email with your boundary for changeover? When I did my boundary email after the arm grab incident, I was worried about it. Never in my wildest dreams did I EVER, EVER think the person I married would put me through having to do an email like that. But, I took the step. I just had to. Here's what made it extra sh#$tty and a real slap for me - when my step kids were young, and she was battling her XH, it was me that stepped in and helped her with emails, communications etc with her XH, becuase she couldn't handle it. You can do this Scout. I've seen and known men like what you describe your H to be, and I have no kind words to say about this type of man, so wont say anything. Other vets have given their assessment too on your thread.
If your boundary email doesn't work, then your options are either continuing to put up with it, or get that L letter out. I dont see any other options.
I think you need to have a discussion with your L too about parental responsibility, as your parenting Consent orders will have some clauses in there about its allocation. Or am I misunderstood and you just have property orders?
Keep your chin up Scout! Cheers DS
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
Be gentle on yourself. You did fine with the boundary and your conversation with H.
Ensure the boundary is established and keep it. If you are not here by xx:xx then I’m taking son to daycare.
You don’t need to explain it. You don’t need to defend it. Actions speak louder than words.
It’s ok that you got angry. H was late and you had to get to the train. Not much time for his tardiness.
To help in not getting angry, schedule the exchange time maybe a few minutes earlier. If he is late, you’ve got time to go to daycare. However, I think what really bugged you was his lack of communication or caring about other’s schedules.
Expectations dear girl. Expectations.
In this situation, of course expectations are reasonable - but H is not reasonable. Keep expectations low and have a backup plan when dealing with him. For everything. MLCer’s minds are like Swiss cheese, they run late, can’t remember what you tell them, and the concept of a schedule is like a forgiven language suddenly - especially with their secretive and private lives.
Please let go of your feelings of guilt. DB principles are very good and not needed to be absolute. Besides it is possible that H was purposefully being late to get a rise out of you. Hmmmmm. And they do know what buttons to push. I suspect that when looking at this in that possible light you may not feel quite so guilty. Rationalizing helps detach your emotional responses from H’s actions and behaviours.
Learn from this and keep moving forward. You’re doing fine.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
You're not rocking the boat - H is. The thing is, H is just rocking YOUR boat. He's in his boat, chugging along, splashing you with his wake, grabbing your bow and rocking it. I'm worried that this type of thing is making you shake. That's a horrible, horrible feeling. Do you do breathing exercises to bring that down? Make sure you have a go to girlfriend that you can vent with and talk about your feelings - nothing replaces a firend you can call 24/7/365 when the proverbial hits the fan with emotions.
Thanks for putting it this way, DS, it really helps. I called my mum on the way to work and my stepdad jumped on the phone to reassure me that I did nothing wrong. In this way, I was able to talk it through and calm down. I'm nervous about changeover this afternoon, so I will need to practice some breathing exercises in advance of that.
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How about typing up an email with your boundary for changeover? When I did my boundary email after the arm grab incident, I was worried about it. Never in my wildest dreams did I EVER, EVER think the person I married would put me through having to do an email like that. But, I took the step. I just had to. Here's what made it extra sh#$tty and a real slap for me - when my step kids were young, and she was battling her XH, it was me that stepped in and helped her with emails, communications etc with her XH, becuase she couldn't handle it. You can do this Scout. I've seen and known men like what you describe your H to be, and I have no kind words to say about this type of man, so wont say anything. Other vets have given their assessment too on your thread.
I think I will do the email. I read about the arm grab incident and think you handled it very well in the aftermath, and your XW responded nicely. I have no illusions about what H's response would be, if he deigned to give me one.
I'm still interested in what you might think about H - seeing it in black and white helps with my detachment.
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I think you need to have a discussion with your L too about parental responsibility, as your parenting Consent orders will have some clauses in there about its allocation. Or am I misunderstood and you just have property orders
I have a parenting plan which I understand is different to parenting orders. My solicitor suggested a non-binding plan due to S1's age and need for flexibility until he reaches school age. I hope this is the right choice.
Thank you so much for your continued advice, it helps so much.
I think what really bugged you was his lack of communication or caring about other’s schedules.
Expectations dear girl. Expectations.
You are right, DnJ. It's the lack of respect and consideration, as well. The way he brushed past me and totally ignored me when he entered my home with no recognition of what he had done or the impact on me or S1. Sigh. Is it too much to expect basic decency from MLCers?
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It is possible that H was purposefully being late to get a rise out of you. Hmmmmm. And they do know what buttons to push. I suspect that when looking at this in that possible light you may not feel quite so guilty.
As I mentioned, he is routinely late. The first few times he would message or call in advance and I'd say thanks for letting me know. Sometimes he would say he slept in, there was traffic, or even "I have no excuse". It happened so frequently I didn't bother to address it, and he stopped letting me know, or apologising when he eventually arrived. I should have set stronger boundaries at the beginning, but I was worried about being seen as uptight or controlling over 5-10 minutes of tardiness. Double sigh.
I'll have to come back to you tomorrow as I'm jammed at the moment. Tonight maybe if I get time! Sorry
I haven't said my thoughts about your H because you are here to bust your divorce, and the principles we members stick to is not to bash the H or W. I'll do so though if that's what you want and if it helps.
Stay strong at changeover - cover yourself in a protective shield of 'calm' energy, ok. There ain't nuthin' tougher in the world than a single mum getting s$#t done!
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
Thanks DS. I don’t know if I’m busting my divorce or just learning how to deal with it. Just trying to be the best person I can and letting the chips fall where they may.
Changeover was quick and easy. Barely any interaction beyond hello and goodbye. One awkward moment - S1 (who is nearly 2) has lately been very interested in the topic of ‘home’. Where is Mama’s house, S1’s house, dad’s house, grandparents’ house etc. As I was collecting S1 from H at the front door, he piped up “no more dada’s house”! I played along and said “no, just mama and S1’s house”. H didn’t say a word and scampered into his car to drive away. Pretty funny.
Had dinner with my family tonight. Stepdad mentioned that H deleted him off Facebook. I think he was quite hurt about it - they were closer than H was to his own father. He tried to counsel H in the weeks following BD and really encouraged him to think about what he was doing. Of course H, being in MLC, didn’t take it seriously and used it as an opportunity to talk about how awesome it was being free and single, and how much his life was improving. Stepdad said at the time that it was bizarre and quite tone-deaf.
It was thanks to this conversation, about six weeks after BD, that I found out H had decided to end the trial separation and proceed with divorce. Yes, I found out my marriage was ending from my stepdad. H told stepdad to tell me in order to soften the blow (more accurately, to avoid a difficult emotional conversation). He knew that I knew for the next three days and did nothing. On the third day of silence, hurting beyond measure, I broke down and asked him to talk to me in person about it. He took a day to reply and said he would be free at the end of the week. It was shockingly casual and completely heartless.
Anyway. That is the memory I am thinking of tonight. It’s nice to be removed from the emotion behind it, or to have processed the emotion so it doesn’t hurt any more. I can muse about it without pain.
I think your H is a narcissist, or at least displays a lot of those characteristics. There seems to be a veneer of a respectable man but this has been exposed and he doesn’t seem to care. Indeed he just seems to care about himself right now. Your comments about the chore list and how he ignored you and S when you were both very sick is, frankly, abnormal. That he is an intelligent man and he still does this is concerning. His disinterested and flippant attitude to your son says it all. That he is doing counseling for his own happiness, the way he treated your step dad etc etc signals a man who simply doesn’t care about anyone except himself. Having a child means you can’t play Xbox, go kart, paint ball etc. that he chose these teenage hobbies over family is in my respectful view abhorrent. I’m not sure what you will find in your heart if you look deeply and objectively, but I think you’ve hinted at the change in feelings about him and who he really is. You mentioned something about a mask before. I thought my XW changed and something came over her but it wasn’t who she really was. Someone told me the other day that this person who she is now is actually who she really is. I dunno.
Yes a parenting plan is non binding. Why not just try a consent order and see what h says. Ask your lawyer about varying a consent order in future when s is older, if warranted. Maybe even look at clauses for review in future with latitude to increase time with h as s gets older. Consent orders can be as flexible as you choose to draft them. You may feel a lot more certain, secure and assured with consent orders. There’ll be fact sheets about both on the family courts website. Your L should advise you about pros and cons of both but make sure they’re aware of all the going’s on with H ok.
I’m too tired to type more but will check in on you tomorrow ok. Cheers DS
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
some previously great (or at least normal ) spouses can LOOK like they have a personality disorder during crisis, but show no signs of it before or after.
That’s not your husband.
You’ve given ample evidence that he had these issues all along, they’ve just become less hidden.
I suggest you read a short book called The Sociopath Next Door. I suspect you will recognize your H.
As for your H blocking your stepdad on FB - how else could he hide OW posts and other evidence of his bad behavior? It’s probably not personal to stepdad but just about hiding what he’s doing.
I really appreciate the reality check, thank you both. Your words give credence to the growing feelings in my heart.
I have read on other threads/boards about the validity of MLC and whether we as LBS insist on viewing things through this lens because we are desperately searching for some logical explanation of what happened. When perhaps the concept is meaningless and people who act as though they are in MLC are long broken and something triggered their inability to cope or maintain the facade. Or even more simply, they believed they were entitled to their happiness at any cost, ie. narcissist.
Maybe in my case, this is true.
I know there are marriages that end in mutual respect, kindness, sorrow, regret. It's hard to understand why we weren't afforded this same consideration by our spouses. Did we choose the 'wrong' type of person? Did we contribute to our own mistreatment? I do think the presence or possibility of an AP prevents a healthy, natural end to a relationship, and could be the easiest explanation for why 'MLC' relationships end with such destruction and pain. Perhaps MLC is simply How To Escape your Marriage When You're Emotionally Illiterate 101: It's Your Spouse's Fault and You Deserve To Be Happy With New Person.
I dunno, just thinking out loud.
New topic: I have a question around the type of contact I should have with H.
At this point, it's my preference to only be in proximity with him long enough to say hello and goodbye while we exchange S1. I'm not interested in chit chat about his day, nor in sharing anything about my day, let alone anything more significant. The last time he spewed at me, he acted very injured that I never make small talk with him, and said that makes me mean and cold. I don't want to be his friend. I do try to limit our contact.
Is this rude of me? I'm on the fence about standing for this marriage but I do want to be the best version of myself so I can square everything away with my conscience.
Here's a little further thinking that I would like to get down on paper (so to speak).
H expressed a desire to go back to simpler, happier times. Meaning, before we met and began to build a life together with all its inherent responsibilities and commitments. He said he was happiest at age 18 when life was about video games, drifting cars, and partying with the boys. It certainly seems that that's his current mental age based on his actions and activities.
I recall now a comment he made years ago about his parents abandoning him as soon as he finished high school. The impression I got, or my interpretation of his comment, was that his high school graduation was the only thing keeping his parents from retiring early and 'living their best life'. Indeed, as soon as he graduated and moved out, they immediately sold the family home, bought a catamaran, and went to sail the high seas. Only returning every six months or so and not keeping in touch much with either of their children.
I do wonder if he felt deep down that his parents were impatient with him, the youngest child, for holding them back from their dreams. I wonder if he felt unsupported during the big life transition of finishing school, moving out, and starting uni. I wonder if he began to withhold information about his life from them in retaliation for leaving. He routinely ignores his mother's calls and messages to this day. It is very foreign to me, a girl who has a close and honest relationship with my own mother. And just disrespectful, as well.
He never expanded on the abandonment comment, or even remembered saying it in later years. But it has always stuck with me.
New topic: I have a question around the type of contact I should have with H.
At this point, it's my preference to only be in proximity with him long enough to say hello and goodbye while we exchange S1. I'm not interested in chit chat about his day, nor in sharing anything about my day, let alone anything more significant. The last time he spewed at me, he acted very injured that I never make small talk with him, and said that makes me mean and cold. I don't want to be his friend. I do try to limit our contact.
Is this rude of me? I'm on the fence about standing for this marriage but I do want to be the best version of myself so I can square everything away with my conscience.
Hey Scout,
This sounds like a good plan. Minimal exchanges with you being calm and breezy during the hellos and goodbyes. If he does want to make chit chat, maybe entertain it a little, from time to time, then break it off fairly quickly as you've got to run. I use lots of "M-hmms" and "Oh really's" when my XW unloads a stream of consciousness on me, as well as engaging, animated eye contact (my XW used to loved my eyes and looking at them, so that's more of a 'seductive' thing in my sitch, which you may obviously not feel the same to your H at the moment), kind of like when we were married (these daily downloads from my XW were part of our dynamic so it's fairly easy for me). I keep it light and upbeat, with a 'no worries' attitude. Notice your body language and facial expression too, and adjust if required so as to avoid folded arms or giving off a tense, stressed vibe.
Speak to your L about creating a "Communication Book" to pass messages back and forth about matters concerning your son
H's feeling injured etc that you don't make small talk is mind boggling given the circumstances, and I detect a significantly deficient level of maturity within him.
And no, I don't think it's rude of you
Cheers, DS
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
The last time he spewed at me, he acted very injured that I never make small talk with him, and said that makes me mean and cold.
Ummm....if he says such a thing again, I would remind him that what is REALLY mean and cold is abandoning your wife and child.
Interesting about his abandonment by his parents. Yes, I think most young adults just starting out might feel abandoned in such a situation. And if he'd been generally a nicer husband before his crisis, I would think perhaps he was just recreating his childhood trauma. BUT - since he's shown evidence of serious issues for a very long time - it's also possible that his parents sold the house and took off so that he couldn't move back home with them.
(A former athlete has been sentenced for rape charges in my city - my boyfriend knew his famous father and wondered why the dad had moved into a one bedroom apartment years ago - suspicion is it was to keep his son from moving back in.)
Generally, it's a good idea to keep to the high road. Be polite but distant.
I have a question around the type of contact I should have with H.
I agree with your minimal contact. Remain kind and cordial, as best you can. Talk with him (no to him) like you would a work colleague or boss; polite and mostly business related. That behaviour and communication is not rude.
As for standing and becoming the best version of yourself. Do both.
You need to heal and find your stable foundation. Finding your inner strengthens, your beliefs and values. Taking a good accurate look at them, and adjusting the ones that you are not completely pleased with. This takes time and growth. The return on such an investment is that best version of you.
While you are doing that - stand.
Or maybe more accurately - don’t stand down.
You are not ready to go out dating and such; and you are still married. Let H do whatever he is doing towards ending things, all that heavy lifting. You focus on you.
So in effect you stand for you. Not H or your marriage, although it amounts to the same for the time being. Standing really starts when one is healed enough to stand down. You’ve got lots of time, no need to rush deciding about standing or not. You’re probably not really ready to do anything else anyhow. And that is a very good thing.
H is the father and is going to be in son’s life and therefore your’s, for a long time. Best to take the high road and create a cordial relationship with him. Ya I know, being the stable parent and spouse puts the majority of the work load on you. Arggggg. Go punch a pillow, get the anger out, and find acceptance to this unfortunate fact - H is behaving like a teenager and you are left holding the bag. Of course I don’t believe you would want things reversed. Maybe that viewpoint helps a bit.
As you heal, converse with H, grow, and become that best person you can be more and more will be revealed. Future decisions will become less clouded. Have faith and be patient.
And yes, one can square everything with their conscience. And that journey is so very worth it.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Just a positive GAL update. I'm having a great day off.
I saw a psychic this morning and it was really therapeutic. The first thing she said was that there was a lot of angst surrounding a relationship that ended without warning. Yep, you could say that! She also said she has no hesitation sharing her sense of hope about broken relationships with her clients, but there was no possibility of change with my H. Interesting to hear the thoughts of this thread repeated, whether you believe in psychics or not.
I'm home now. S1 is down for a nap, I just had a delicious sub and some cookies for lunch, and I'm relaxing with a diet coke watching my favourite sitcom. A friend and her kids are coming over for a playdate after lunch, then I'm gonna make a big batch of chicken fried rice for dinner. This is the life!
Thank you DS, kml, DnJ for sharing your viewpoints, as always. I couldn't do this alone.
"I know there are marriages that end in mutual respect, kindness, sorrow, regret."
I have been telling my H, whom I call OD, that I want to end our marriage with kindness and respect. We are not there. But in the last year, I have behaved that way whenever I could. That is the only part I can control. For me, that means not taking the digs, not pointing out the flawed logic, not getting sucked into conversations that are going to go to a mean place. Unfortunately, I think in my case, it is making it harder for him to get through it. I think if I were uglier, it would be easier for him, but from a personal integrity standpoint, I am not willing to go there.
Own the part of it that you control and leave the rest be. I am very impressed by your attitude and your understanding that this is not the end of you. Your life will go on in a fabulous way with people who deserve to be in it.
I love psychics! I've seen several over the years. I'm sorry the prospects were grim, but, not everything a psychic says is true. I was told several years ago I would be with a blond, Eastern European woman! I laughed, because I was happily married at the time!
I hope the psychic gave you a good future prospect. If you're into this type of stuff, do yourself a favour and get some spiritual healing/cleansing done as well.
Chicken rice sounds yum! I haven't had it in years - my ex GF's mum used to cook it, and I couldn't get enough. I think I'll prepare a cold barszcz for dinner (beetroot soup).
Anyway, good to hear a positive update. You and S enjoy the playdate.
Lastly, thanks for the thanks. It's such a supportive forum, isnt it. Btw, feel free at any time (when you're up to it of course) to chime in on my thread again. I really value women's perspective on things. Thanks
Cheers, DS
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
Own the part of it that you control and leave the rest be. I am very impressed by your attitude and your understanding that this is not the end of you. Your life will go on in a fabulous way with people who deserve to be in it.
Thanks OwnIt! I'm still catching up on other people's threads. Do you have any desire to reconcile with OD? It's been 6 months since BD for me and my psychic said I'm doing so well with my healing, it's more like 12 months along. I'm still learning to act on principle, not emotion. It is very hard, which is why NC is the best thing for me until I get a better handle on my reactions. You seem to be very, very skilled at this. I will learn from your steadfastness.
In many ways, this situation is a blessing for me and my son. He is too young to experience or understand the emotional turmoil caused by the breakdown of his family and his father's behaviour. I can guide him through age-appropriate explanations of what happened as he gets older and begins to ask questions. I hope he will judge the situation for what it is. But hopefully, this life will just become the norm for him.
As for me - I'm financially independent. I've just entered my 30s. I look better than I have in years. I'm taking care of my mental health. I have strengthened my connections with family and friends. I feel a deep satisfaction and contentment about my life. Of course, I am still dealing with the trauma of being abandoned and betrayed, and probably will for quite some time. But those pockets of overwhelming emotion are fleeting. Best of all - my conscience is clear and I have no regrets.
It's such a supportive forum, isnt it. Btw, feel free at any time (when you're up to it of course) to chime in on my thread again. I really value women's perspective on things. Thanks
I put a few thoughts in your thread. You sound like you're doing really well, keep it up.
Just now, I received the draft consent orders for review. My palms are a bit sweaty. It's overwhelming, even though there's nothing new or surprising in them. Seeing the words 'applicant' and 'respondent' - phew. Sobering stuff. I plan to go over the paperwork with my parents before signing off on anything. Then H will receive his copy, and we'll see what happens. Another step towards the finish line.
Kid changeover this morning - H turned up 5 minutes early for the first time ever! I guess my warning sunk in. Lol. I called out to S1 "who's here? Dada's here!" to get him excited, as I always try to hype up Dad's visits so he doesn't get upset when I leave. We ran to the front door and opened it. I said "good morning!" and it was returned sans exclamation point. H seemed grumpy. I didn't linger, just kissed S1 goodbye and told him I'd pick him up from daycare. Then I said "see ya later!" and received no response from H.
Good luck with the Orders. Make sure your L explains in detail, so you understand your rights, entitlements and obligations. I felt the same too about seeing us referred to as Applicant and Respondent.
Glad changeover was smooth. I'm sure H was a little taken aback at your breezy attitude. It's really good you maintain H in a positive light with his dad. Keep calling him "Dada", it's really importnat. I always refer to XW as 'mummy' with my S. My XW refers to me as "your father".
Yeah, no dramas, no worries!
Cheers, DS
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
You are doing very well. Nice work with H and child changeover. Good attitude and wording - your mind is listening and you are “speaking” excellent.
I remember the first time seeing applicant and respondent, and XW and my names type out in bold print. Oh, the terror and emotions; it was just weeks after BD. Good for you asking your parents to review the proposed separation as well. Ensure you ask your L all your questions.
Feelings are fleeting. Glad you know this. Let them flit.
Find, alter, strengthen, and follow your beliefs.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Co-parenting isn’t working with H. He withholds important information, doesn’t respect me as the custodial parent, and doesn’t put S1’s needs first.
Our verbal agreement is that he visits S1 at my home to maintain his consistency and routine. He comes over one morning and one afternoon a week. The afternoon is fine because he picks him up from daycare, takes him to the park, and drops him off in time for dinner. The morning has always been uncomfortable for me because he’s in my home after I leave for work. I put up with it because I didn’t want to send S1 out of the house at 6:30am when he’s just woken up.
Lately I’ve been coming home from work on these days and there are no dirty breakfast dishes. The agreement was that H gives him breakfast at home, gets him ready, and spends time with him before daycare. I’m concerned that H is not sticking to the agreement and might be taking S1 to his house. As I mentioned, he refuses to share his address and knows that he isn’t supposed to take S1 there until he does. He will have to give that information in the consent orders anyway, so there is no reason to conceal it. I don’t trust him to tell the truth if I ask. What can I do...
Potential convo:
Me: Hi H, just checking that you’re giving S1 his breakfast before you head out for the day. I noticed there weren’t any dishes out when I got home. I don’t feed him before I leave for work, so I want to make sure he’s got a full tummy before daycare.
H: blah blah blah
Me: OK, thanks for clarifying. I also want to double check that you aren’t taking S1 to your place without my knowledge. As I mentioned, we need to share our address with the other parent in case of emergency. This will be a legal requirement laid out in the consent orders. I would feel comfortable with S1 going there once you share your address and demonstrate his basic needs are met. Until then, you may visit at my place or take him to the park etc.
Does that sound alright? More/less strict?
Daycare teachers told me that S1 has been upset this week, crying and clinging when he is usually a sunny little fellow. I do worry that he is being affected by H’s erratic behaviour, but it could just be toddler stuff. H is not a good parent right now. He forgot to pack S1’s milk bottle so he had to go without one day. He failed to pass on a message from the teachers so S1 missed out on an activity. Things that he wouldn’t consider a big deal, but could cause confusion for a toddler.
I would like to suggest a change to the arrangement to replace the morning with a second afternoon. Now would be the time to do so when consent orders are being drawn up. But I’m scared of opening that dialogue. I think it’s best for S1 but it would be good for me as well. I could suggest H take him out for dinner and put him to bed to ensure he isn’t losing any time and is participating in S1’s home routine. He has asked a couple of times if he can do dinner and bed but it hasn’t happened.
This is hard, but I just want to make sure S1 is happy and safe.
Well Scout, that is hard. In many ways you are fortunate because your s won’t remember all this. But in many ways, it is harder because your son is not yet verbal so you don’t know what is happening.
So, I had a live-in and he was not capable of caring for my then 11 and 9 year old sons. He hired babysitters to get “a break?!?!” I had zero help when he lived with me; he was a 3rd kid vs. a coparent. I was okay with it because I would rather do it all myself anyway as he was no sort of asset in this equation. (He now has 50% custody but often acts as a bestie more than a father. I think that is his guilt and wanting to be liked.). But he definitely is more responsible/involved than he was back in 2014. It took years.
My advice? Offer him an out and see what he says. I know it is optimal for two parents to be involved but sometimes both parents do not want to be involved. So, I would start there, but with no judgment.
Maybe start here (but only if you can be light and non judgmental) “Hey, is it me, or does this routine seem kind of hard?” Maybe this is too much right now with this early morning?” Then radio silence and see if he fights to see s1. If he is wishy washy, give him an out.
If he wants the nighttime routine with you there, I would take that in your home with you present. It is the safest option. If he wants an out, give it. If someone does not want to do it, it is best they don’t fake the funk. And this may be easier for you too, sadly.
You and s1 will be just fine. It just takes one parent. Look at Peace and Ginger and DNJ and Irish (who used to post here).
Me 41, H 47, M 15 yrs, S11, S13 BD 1: 11/4/14 we work on it; really I pretzel myself BD 2: 3/31/15 H goes down to "dorm room" 8/15: H back to MBR 10/15: H back in dorm room 1/18: H files, now divorced
If the Orders/PP are about to be sent to the H, then maybe you could work some changes to the PP to address the issues and proposals you're raising in your latest post, and then explain these issues in the covering letter from the L.
That way, it alleviates you of having to broach them direct with the H. Don't torture yourself having to worry about raising these things direct with the H.
Please, please get some detailed advice about the prospects of you securing sole parental responsibility. Putting it forward now may be the 'offer him an out' Hawho suggests.
Get the daycare to inform you direct by email so as to avoid not being passed on from H or Chinese whispers.
Instead of your place for contact, could your parents or paternal grandparents place be an option, notwithstanding this will be a change in routine?
If it were me, I'd not only want an address, but also who else resides there and suitability of the residence to your son (ie amenities, condition etc). What if H is couch surfing or living with random tenants or new found xbox buddies and then decides to move? Be cautious in agreeing to upon address being provided S can stay there automatically. I'd also be proposing that when S is in H's care, H doesnt delegate care to anyone except family etc.
With breakfast (playing devil's advocate here) H could be bringing something in tupperware and taking it back, or actually cleaning up after himself. Do you honestly think H is that dilatory that he wouldnt feed his baby son breakfast? If so (actually based on what you've said I wouldnt be surprised), just make up a little breakfast pack H can just feed him with.
Overall, you're right in saying now's the time to propose and incorporate these changes, before the documents go out to H.
Cheers, Ds
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
I think it is a good idea for you address this concern with H. Most people in crisis it seems become terrible parents, and the responsibility of a child is a lot of added pressure.
I like the idea of offering an out, as HaWho suggested. Start with a soft approach, and if H seems ok, offer an out.
I also like DS9’s suggestions. Have the daycare contact you with concerns, and provide a meal for H to feed S1.
These are all in the realm of your control, in that you are not trying to get H to do something. Trying to get H to do something because he said he would, or you want him to, or he is suppose to - doesn’t work. They have minds like Swiss cheese, and an attention span of about the same.
Your proposed conversation with H has a reasoned approach, and covers off a far bit of this concern - and he most likely will balk at it. It’s just too much for him. Conversations need to be short and non judgemental.
Like HaWho suggested is a good example. Short, and then let him figure that out. Then if he proposes something acceptable, well that is his idea, and you would go along with it.
Until then, you can control having a meal for S1 prepared. If the meal is still sitting where you left it, and there are no dirty dishes, you could ask a more pointed question. And maybe have better luck in changing the schedule.
As for where H takes S1 when the little guy is in his care. With only verbal agreement between you two, there isn’t much you can force, actually I think I mean enforce. With a legal agreement it can be enforced. While a gentleman’s agreement is a tenuous thing.
Again the soft approach will often have better results in gaining their buy in to a proposal.
- - - -
With all that being said. That would be my advice for a situation with an MLCer. However, your H is 29 years old, perhaps a QLCer.
Yesterday, H was 5 minutes early. Perhaps due to your warning. Now a one time event does not a behaviour make. See if he continues this better behaviour and commend him for it when he does.
I do like the gentle approach - like attracting a squirrel. But, H did respond (maybe) to your more direct approach as well.
I would try the soft approach and go from there; becoming more or less direct as the conversation progresses. You know your situation best and the goal you are seeking. Do more of what works and less of what doesn’t.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
If it were me, I'd email it. It removes the emotional edginess and angst you can feel when you talk about these things. If you feel ready and safe that you'll be fine just talking about it, then do that.
I like the suggsetion here to start an email with -
"I was just thinking about XYZ" ("and wanted to discuss some of these things with you").
Yes, raising it through your L is not as soft an approach as you emailing or talking about it directly. A L's letter can be as conciliatory or as resolved as you instruct your L to do it.
Blend the thoughts behind your decision based on your comfort level and what is best for you and what is most likely to achieve a result as against how H will react to it. I love DnJ's squirrel analogy, but as he said, maybe the more direct approach is responded to as well. If you raise in person, will H heighten and want to defend, or will he want to go away and think about it? How will face to face discussion effect you if H gets heightened? These are some other things to consider as well.
I'll again play the broken record of suggesting speaking to your L about your current thoughts and desired proposals BEFORE you raise them with the H anyway.
Hope that helps
Cheers, DS
Me: early 40's XW: nearly 50 T: 15 M: 5 BD: Jan 19 S:10 SS: 22 SD: 24
Seems like there’s a few different issues: - is H taking S to his place in the mornings (versus taking S out to breakfast or washing and putting away breakfast dishes?). Switching to afternoons will not keep him from taking S to his place. You simply need the lawyer to fight to have him reveal his residence. A nanny cam could tell you what’s happening with breakfast. It could also reassure you that he’s behaving appropriately with your toddler. (But look into your local laws, if it’s not admissible in court do not mention your findings to him. It could be illegal where you live).
- H taking all afternoons would eliminate the friction of waiting for him in the morning. Is there a benefit for him too that you can use to sell it? Like “H, I know you’re really not a morning person, how would you like to do two afternoons instead? “
- I agree with trying a “softer” approach first. The more you can paint things as a “win-win”,
