Perfecting my inner peace

[Grace21]

I wouldn't hold out any hope for a settlement agreement (I'm on 3 years waiting for mine).

Why can't the issue be forced by the courts? Can't/won't he agree to mediation to move it along? That would be a nightmare for me. So far, it's moving along for me.

If you want a divorce and are prepared to do all the work for it (and probably drag a reluctant body along), then go for it. Your kids are older so you don't have to deal with the custody side of it where things can get ugly. If not and if you are fine with things the way they are now, sit tight.

I have done all the work. He just responds to questions. I'm not fine with the way things are, because I can't tolerate being married to someone living with another woman. Whether he is miserable and just doesn't know a way out, or not, the fact is he's still there. But, part of me wants to see it played out. But, I can do that whether divorced or not.

Until you are completely sure what you want, probably best to wait (unless the finances dictate moving now).

I'm not completely sure, that is now my problem. I'm comfortable with my decision to push forward with the D, but not completely sure I'm doing the right thing. H messaged me today to inform me he met with them, and it was helpful to hear their story. My friend said he messaged her again last night first thanking them, but expressing uncertainty, anxiety etc. She just keeps saying the same thing. He needs counseling.

Well, for now, I'm finishing up the paperwork. I haven't filed for D yet, but that will be done when the Marriage Settlement Agreement is finished.

Grace

[OwnIt]

My underlying case is likely far more complex and not worth reiterating here, but make sure you and your attorney discuss what happens if he doesn't respond (do you need discovery or can you just take a default and be done), if he doesn't participate in discovery (do you have other ways to get the information you need), if you have to obtain subpoenas, if you have to file motions to compel, and motions for contempt for violations of the motions to compel, the costs for these things, and what a default judgment (if he truly doesn't participate) looks like for you. Does it give you the relief you seek?

Also consider, if he truly doesn't want this action, if he is giving you money, what happens if he stops paying you? How long could you go without money? How much does your attorney estimate it would take to get temporary orders to get the money flowing again? The way people behave before litigation begins is often different than how they behave after, particularly when they are conflicted or mentally ill.

These things sound simple at the surface, but there is more below. It may be that they don't tip your scale one way or the other, just make sure you know what you are getting into if you commence litigation against someone who sounds truly conflicted and may not move from point A to point B in a logical fashion. Read some of HaWho's account of how her husband behaved during divorce, Gerda's or Pax's. Mine filed for divorce and then completely stopped communicating with his lawyer to the point where I was getting fined by the court for the case not moving forward and not in position to get a default (since he filed and I was asking for more than I would get on default).

[Gerda]

Read some of HaWho's account of how her husband behaved during divorce, Gerda's or Pax's.

Reading along here and seeing my name in that list gave me quite a jolt. I was almost proud to be in such good company but part of me was also like, "Oh no, I am not like these other stories here." The denial is the knee jerk that you have to keep overturning! So then I started thinking, "Well, how DID my H behave during divorce?" and wondering what it looks like to all of you out there in TV Land. I realize I don't think I know that much about Pax or HaWho's D's unfolding and if they were like mine is.

In my case, all that I did all these years to stand bit me in the rear. Because I have been able to keep everything running on fumes and working many jobs, etc., without ever asking H for help, because by myself I cleaned up every mess, dealt with all the court cases and IRS and everything else from the biz he abandoned, even while I had cancer, his L was able to paint this massive lie of me hiding money or having secret sources, etc. His L also just lied in general, and my L kept telling me that the judge doesn't care about any facts or read anything until trial, so we wouldn't be able to debunk the lies til then. And in the end, I surrendered to a horrible deal that traps me for the next six months unless H (and OW) gets tired of waiting for his dream offer, just to avoid trial or H moving back in. But really the thing about my case is that it wasn't just H getting crazier and crazier and more and more vicious and convincing himself more and more that his delusions were real -- and it wasn't just that his lawyer was straight out of a movie of an evil ambulance-chaser lawyer -- it was my judge. Notoriously lazy -- e.g., won't read any documents or listen to anything you say unless you hire an expert -- even just a bank statement. Notorious for not caring about the children -- refused to listen to anything about H's drinking or neglect of the kids, etc., unless I hired an attorney for the kids. (She even literally screamed at me to shut my mouth about H when I said, "Your honor, I would really like to settle some issues about the children because I do not think my H is a fit parent," unless I had the money to prove it with a lawyer for the kids and a forensics person, etc.)

Point being -- learn your judge too. That can make or break things in terms of fairness so you want to be very pragmatic about the likely outcomes with your judge.

And finally -- for me, in the end I still want to save myself from some things I consider slaveries, and that I can only do via faith. I am trying to hold on to my house, despite the urgings of some of my friends here. But I am not fighting for what is fair in terms of how that happens, and I am totally at peace with losing that and anything else I have to lose. I would give H double what he would get by default if it would end this and if I had it. And I think I am still glad I chose to surrender to such an unfair settlement if it means I have more left of ME and my health for my kids. Even on a secular level, and especially if you don't have to worry about younger kids, I think it's better to surrender some of what you deserve for the sake of moving past this horror show as quickly as you can.

The last thing I will say is something my dad told me recently about when he and my mom divorced. She was about like my H in what she did (including accusing him of hiding money!), and my dad, though certainly not an easy guy to get along with, did not want to D. He told me that his L advised him to have no loose ends, nothing to keep him tied to my mom -- e.g., alimony, etc. He said to have it all settled once so there would be nothing left to argue about. So he did alimony as one payment in a credit on the house she kept, for example. Grace, I would advise you to take my dad's advice, esp if your H is that confused and if the grasping clawing OW is in the picture. Don't rely on future payments but take less as a lump sum off the asset now -- or in whatever way you can, let this be the end of it.

To me it sounds like your H could come out of this one day -- he says a lot of things to you that I have always wished my H would say to me. And I know you are open to restoration. But in both of your case and mine there was so much evil happening via the money ties and all related to the OW that the D seems like the only way to get a clean slate. The clean slate can be the start of your life without him -- or, if you ever want to restore, it can keep things very clear, you can rebuild as an independent woman with no financial expectations of each other ever again. I mean, sometimes you express some confusion yourself about your choice to pursue this divorce, but like DnJ says, the D is all about business, not about the vow per se. I thin you have made it pretty clear to your H that this is not what you want and that you are being forced into it because he has been so financially irresponsible with what is both of yours. But you can always let him know that again at some point if it feels right, that for you this is the end of your financial connection but does not have to be the end should things change one day. Until recently, I imagined that outcome for me too, that if H ever came back, I would never again have joint finances, no matter what. Now I can't really imagine him coming back but whatever happens, I am looking forward to having no financial ties to any man ever again -- except my dad! : )

[Grace21]

OwnIt - You have given me some food for thought, and a few questions for my attorney. Thanks. Luckily, I'm financially secure even if H goes even further off the rails and cuts me off. For now, he is paying the agreed monthly alimony as well as his share of the joint bills. Luckily, he is now off cell, etc., so it's getting pretty straight forward. I did ask my attorney about what if he drags his feet. We haven't filed for D yet, so that would be the next step because it would give us court ordered deadlines. One day at a time.

Gerda - You also gave me some things to think about. Although I do not forsee going before a judge. It's completely uncontested. I was fairly generous, and only went for my fair share. I didn't go overboard. Could I have gotten more if I took him to court? Probably. But, after all, I am not out to get him, and I have enough to live on and for my future. Could I go for more? Probably. But that's not me.

To me it sounds like your H could come out of this one day -- he says a lot of things to you that I have always wished my H would say to me. And I know you are open to restoration. But in both of your case and mine there was so much evil happening via the money ties and all related to the OW that the D seems like the only way to get a clean slate. The clean slate can be the start of your life without him -- or, if you ever want to restore, it can keep things very clear, you can rebuild as an independent woman with no financial expectations of each other ever again. I mean, sometimes you express some confusion yourself about your choice to pursue this divorce, but like DnJ says, the D is all about business, not about the vow per se. I think you have made it pretty clear to your H that this is not what you want and that you are being forced into it because he has been so financially irresponsible with what is both of yours. But you can always let him know that again at some point if it feels right, that for you this is the end of your financial connection but does not have to be the end should things change one day.

Yes, the confusion is there about the D. I just don't feel I'm in it 100%. Well, maybe no one is unless they are escaping violence, evil, etc. You are correct in that I am open to restoration. I've said as much to several people recently. They look at me like I have 2 heads, and ask why, but I don't say too much. No one can know what it is to be in our shoes, what standing means. The one's that DO understand are my devout Christian friends. Of course I think that's what it would take - Christ, His grace, and ability to restore the most broken. We will see what He has for me.


Your reminder that D is all business, and the emotional side is separate, is very timely. There is no way we can reconcile as the people we were. I have changed too much, and am happy and content in my life. I still want H to come along for the rest of the ride. If some day he heals, and makes real change, I could see us starting over and being very happy. But, in the mean time, I am living my life to the fullest. Perhaps God has other plans for me, another person that is meant for me in the next season of my life. I don't know. I will just live life, and see where it takes me.

P.S. Gerda - I am taking a trip with the kids to NYC between Christmas and New Years.......

[Gerda]

Grace, can you do a full legal separation, like a post-nup, that has all the same financial power but puts off a D? You're going to be married in God's eyes either way, but if you are unsure, could be a still small voice....

What are your exact trip dates?

[Grace21]

Gerda - I think the Marriage Settlement Agreement is legally binding even if I do not file for D right now. There is some language in it about that. One of the questions for my attorney.

You're going to be married in God's eyes either way

I'm not sure about this. The Bible tells us we can be divorced on grounds of adultery and an unbeliever (I'd have to look at this one again). H is both at the moment. Doesn't mean I won't stand or move on with someone else even if we do D, but I don't think in this instance God would condemn me if I decide to not reconcile should the opportunity arise.

I'll be in NYC Dec 26 - 30.

Grace

[job]

Grace,

God would not condemn you if you decided not to reconcile after divorce. The Bible does tell us that we can be divorced on the grounds of adultery. The Priest in my church has had many discussions w/our congregation on this topic, i.e., those who have been divorced and/or going through divorce.

You will know, when the time comes, if you should follow through on divorce. I would ask my lawyer those questions that are still on your mind. Jot them down and either make an appointment of shoot him a text/email to get the answers.

[Gerda]

Grace and Job -- I would never suggest God would condemn anyone for divorcing! I am sure that God hates war too, but that doesn't mean that we can always avoid war, and sometimes we have to fight wars in order to keep evil at bay.

That said, I do think marriage is a covenant with God even more than it is with our spouses. I don't think the civil dissolution can change that though I am sure God loves and forgives us and uses whatever we do for the good if we end up marrying again after divorce. There is certainly nothing shameful in a life of chastity and devotion to your children and extended family without further romantic ties with another man -- that is a great way to be devoted to God. And my experience as a child of divorce and remarriage is that it was fraught with other troubles. But I don't know that I have a solo life in me, or even that I am called to it. I know God put it on my heart to stand and I know many incredible things happened to me and for me as I walked the path of standing, including the part that included being chaste. I am pretty sure I won't be able to keep doing that, but seven years of doing it (and really more like 8 or 9, when I think of the downward spiral before MLC truly hit) brought a lot of graces to me. I am pretty sure that it would be part of an incredible God-centered life if I did continue that path, even if I don't think I will.

Have you ever heard John Piper's talk on that issue of remarriage? Or Tim Keller?

I would never judge you and I would never suggest that God would condemn you! Grace, you keep talking about your uncertainty and something bothering you about it, and that is what I was responding to.

Your dates may coincide with mine, my plans are still up in the air. Let's powwow about that in December. I don't know if there is a way to contact each other but we can figure out something if our dates coincide this time or anytime. I would love love love that.

[DnJ]

Hello Grace

I really like what OwnIt, Gerda, and job said.

I need to keep my resolve in what’s best for me and the kids. And one can continue to stand after a divorce if one chooses, can’t they?

Do I want to? That question doesn’t have to be answered today, or tomorrow, or next week.

As my friend DnJ say, time will bring answers.

You can stand for as long as you choose.

Do you want to? You are very right - that can be answered later.

And it’s even ok to stand down, and then stand again. This isn’t black and white; lot of shades in there.

Time will indeed bring answers.

Yes divorce is pretty much a business transaction. The emotional component happened, and is happening, already; divorce is that piece of paper. And of course there is the finality of it as well. The separation agreement is binding and can be undone, and usually has a cooling off period of a year before a final divorce can be applied for.

Is anyone ever really 100% ready? Do you need to be? How about 95%, or 99%? In truth, how does one measure something like that anyhow? Feelings. Yep, we use feelings. That is the source of our doubts.

I think you know your thoughts about what you want to, and should do, regarding the separation agreement. And you are 95% or so, emotionally accepting of it as well. Feelings are stirring up a bit, then settling again; understandable with H’s latest confiding in friend and their telling you. Hence the questions.

I know you expressed a desire about a timeline for separation - by end of year. Honestly, there is no rush. You have lots of time, and time does bring answers.

I am not suggesting you stop or necessarily even reconsider you course; you are a smart gal and have a very reasoned approach. Just remind yourself, for your own piece of mind, and self encouragement that this is indeed the right thing:

That you are doing this for you, and not as some manipulation against H, or for H. That this is for you.

After all this time, all your posts, and all our discussions - I believe that you are deciding this for you.

What do you believe?

DnJ

[Grace21]

Journaling....

The negotiations continue. The jabs continue. The changing emotions continue.

Yesterday D20 called and said “dad sent another e-mail”. She wasn’t crying this time, but sounded very down. This was the 2nd e-mail he sent her since their BD (when I told them about their dad moving in with OW etc). She has never responded.

We talked about it a bit. I don’t know what it said, but we chatted about her feelings, her anger, and that at some point she will want to try to deal with them. I told her to take her time, and if she wanted to respond back, so take her time with that as well.

Then I received a long text msg from H, informing me he contacted the kids, informing me they are still blaming him. It seems like they don’t want a relationship with me if I’m not liking with you”. (Not true)

“obviously I don’t know how we possibly all could get together on the holidays given the situation”. I don’t think I can handle the three-way hostility”.

Huh? No one said we were going to get together like a family. And I’ve never been hostile. Ever. Besides, wouldn’t he want to spend the holidays with his GF? So bizarre.

There was lots more. Other accusations and more blame The 2 messages were long. I felt a needed to respond, and I did via e-mail. It was long. I didn’t get involved in defending myself or even close, but did refute his nonsense. I then ended with something more heartfelt. It was things I planned to say in a letter after the divorce (well, an excerpt). I had no expectations he would respond. It said some pretty intense things. I’m not sorry I put myself out there. I felt it needed to be said. That was last night.

He did not respond, as expected.

And I’m o.k. with it.

Then today, I get a very long e-mail about the settlement agreement. Apparently he spoke with an attorney. More negotiations must take place. I’ll be speaking to my attorney on Monday. He also gave me an outrageously high price for the household furniture. No way will I pay it. He can come and take some of this old stuff, and I will just buy new. (He won’t, because his girlfriend furnished their place and there is not room for it). But just because he doesn’t want it doesn’t mean I have to pay top price for it.

I’m o.k. with all of this though. It is what it is. Just something I will have to deal with for a while longer.

I guess his olive branch to our friends, and their advice, was wasn’t energy.

Oh well. My fab life goes on. So does his not so fab life.

Grace