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As I read through the forums on Divorce Busting, I like to grab the nuggets of gold and share.

My advise, commit to personal growth. What you judge in others, you condemn in yourself. Take all the focus off of your spouse and address your own issues. How hard is it to change your own behavior? Now think how hard (almost impossible) to change someone else.

Set goals for the future and keep taking steps to get there. Read about boundaries and learn how to set and enforce them. Be in the present. Let go of the past and do not fear the future. Get in alignment with your core values. Try new ways of interacting. Learn ways of being more attractive, especially in your behavior.

If you have kids, commit to being the best parent ever. Frequent and equal contact with both parents is important. You are responsible for your relationship with your kids. Let your spouse be responsible for their relationship with the kids. Learn new ways of parenting. Lots of great books out there. Most of the new tools dealing with spouse will also help in parenting.

The best way to respond to a particular event? Initially, the best action to take is no action. Do your homework here. Do not react emotionally. Stay neutral. Seek wise council here. Evaluate all the different options and the possible outcomes of each. Challenge your current beliefs. Make a choice and live with the consequences, good or bad. Things are predictable. Read and read and read. Get mentally ahead of your spouse in the whole process ASAP, they are ahead right now.



As far as your spouse, until you have enough info to prove this wrong, assume there is another person (Hint:This is your first 180). Do not reveal anything about what you know and how you found out. "We both know that is a lie." is a great way to deal with any deception.



I wish everyone well during these difficult times. Remember that everything will be OK no matter what the WAS chooses.

"You can handle it"-Coach



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Link to a recap of my sitch and books I found useful


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by Lostforwords
I like this switch in the board. Instead of focusing on dealing with our spouses...instead we are focusing on the changes within ourselves. Very deep..

My thoughts on the LBS stages;

Denial- Without a doubt the first phase. It could be as simple as denying that there is something wrong or amiss. Eventually turning to denial that it is actually happening to us, denying our part in everything, and the worse part.....denying our inner self's to come out. Maybe because we don't know how.....but at the point everything is caused by some outside catalyst. Sounds very MLC like to me?

Bargaining-I put this here instead of after anger because I feel the deep seated thought out anger is yet to come. We have felt the quick anger brought on by emotional pain and trauma, but not that thought out and reviewed anger that is to come. So we beg, plead, whatever it takes (during this stage I actually saw the positive side of an open marriage...granted my situation is only slightly different...LOL). We will do whatever it takes to save the marriage, yet haven't realized that the marriage is gone. dead! Fini!

Anger-This stage is third...why you ask? At this point our bargaining, selling of our soul, absolutely nothing has had the expected results. So we feel deep down anger and conviction that we are right...they are wrong....and We will win no matter who loses! This very well might be the hardest stage for anybody going through this. I have been scanning lightly in newcomers and see so many of that boards "mentors" stuck themselves in this stage. Trying to control what is uncontrollable out of anger and not based on sound decision.

Depression-At this point the energy involved with our anger is used up. We are burnt out......and now we are ALONE. Yes...we have been alone in the physical sense for some time, but the bucket is finally empty.

Resentment-Slightly different than anger.....more identified with long periods of being OK....then boom.....anger comes bursting back in very brief, but extremely intense blasts. I think it is almost a triggered response...a missed ball game, long weekend with a sick child, or coming up short on a mortgage payment. A catalyst disturbs the beast sleeping within.

Acceptance-I place this before forgiveness because I feel you have to accept the marriage is done before you can forgive the damage it's death has caused. At this point you know that you are alone. The resentment is gone because you accept that triggers from resentment are just yours alone to deal with. This is also a great time for personal growth. Confidence that you will survive on your own, that you can do thing yourself, and that the sun will still rise tomorrow.

Self-growth-Regaining on confidence continued. New perspective of the things around you. Constant questioning...of yourself and the principles we follow. At this point anything is possible....for ourselves.

Forgiveness-At this point you can forgive yourself for your part in the demise of the marriage. You can also see the pain the process has caused our spouse. The knowledge that neither party has really come out of this unscathed is apparent. You will know at this point that the journey was beneficial for both parties as long as neither got tripped up in their respective journeys. Maybe the marriage is renewed...maybe not.

Renewal-The world is different (I know that I see it differently). We are almost reborn to a life that that has unlimited potential. Things that were once taken for granted are cherished...and things thought essential are no longer that important. We are finally able to cash in on the independent self that we have found within ourselves.

Living again-At this point we move on, piece, whatever hand we have been dealt. Everything behind will be seen with compassion for the pain it caused and the enlightenment about ourselves that we achieved.

Just my $0.02


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Originally Posted by Bworl
stage One - Frickin' H3ll

Can't eat, can't sleep. Can't listen to music, can't watch movies. Obsessed with knowing everything that your spouse is doing. Hang on every word your spouse speaks. Write or verbalize numerous pledges to become a better person. Read everything you can on the sanctity of marriage and how to save a marriage, and actually think there is something to be gained by sharing all of it with your spouse. Willing to appeal to any and all friends and family in an effort to "reach" your spouse. Emotions run the gamut: fear, anger, depression, anxiety, hopelessness.


Stage Two - A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.. At some point a little bit of knowledge finally creeps into the picture. May come thru a friend or family member, or maybe something you've been reading. You realize the first two fundamental truths - 1) You're not perfect, and 2) You can't control what another person chooses to do.

In this stage we start to try to improve ourselves, but it's mostly improvement done to try to win our spouses affection. We stop pressuring, we stop pleading, begging, etc, and try being nice and giving them a little space.

Unfortunately, our spouse responds to the change by doing or saying something nice or thoughtful back to us. This is unfortunate because we jump at the crumb thrown our way and reach out again, get summarily rejected, and generally wind up back in stage one again.


Stage Three - "Fool Me once, Shame on You..."
After a period of time working thru stage one again, we move on to this stage where we are now a little wiser to the ways of the MLC spouse. We begin to understand that niceness CAN lead to niceness in return, but that it does NOT change how our spouse feels fundamentally.

We renew our focus on ourselves, this time with less of the motivation coming from our desire to impress our spouse and more of it coming from a genuine desire to rediscover the person we always hoped we would be. We begin to venture out into the world again, start focusing a bit better on work and friends.

We are less inclined to obssess about our spouse, but it's still there. Ocasionally it rears it's head, usually when we are surprised with another hurtful revelation, and this can still send us back to stage one or two for a refresher course.

Two key things happen here. First, we actually begin to see some personal progress that we feel good about. Secondly, that progress establishes a determination that will fuel us forward.


Stage Four - "How Long Does It Take Again to Establish a New Habit?"
Practice does not always make perfect, but regular practice does eventually establish a habit. Making progress in ourselves causes us to want to make more progress. We begin remembering things we always thought we would do or try and realize that we now have that opportunity. Slowly but surely we begin chipping away at the rust that had accumulated on the person we once were, and we begin to like the return of the old, energetic self.

We still hold out hope that our spouse will be a part of our life again. But we've also reached a point of honesty and realized that our relationship had become something less than what it once was. We can see that both spouses had let hurts, disappointments, and laziness diminish the love and commitment that we started out with. We acknowledge inside ourselves that both of us truly had much that needed worked on and improved.

Despite the love we still have for our spouse, we've begun to entertain the notion that it might just be possible to still have a full and meaningful life, even if they choose to never return.






These are just some of my weird thoughts about the process, and of course they come from my experiences, which are not necessarily the same as others.



Bill


Last edited by job; 11/01/19 10:54 PM. Reason: edited language

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Originally Posted by DiamondGirl
Lessons I have learned (or am in the process of learning):

~ That I can only control 3 things in life: My thoughts, My actions, My words

~ That others are responsible for their own choices and life paths. I may impact them by my choices, but I should not own or take on theirs as my own (if that makes any sense LOL)

~ That a relationship is not a merging of two people to completion, but two individuals intertwining *at points* to complement each other's life paths

~ That Boundaries are my protection for the inner me (the real me)

~ That when I react to something someone does or says it is a reflection of my ego reacting, not my inner self which knows ME and what is true and that I need to give the inner self time to communicate that to me

~ That happiness and security comes from within and is not dependant on my marital status or companion

~ That where I fear is usually the universe's pointer to something I need to work on in myself

~ That there is someone/thing higher than myself who communicates to (and guides me) through my inner self, if I allow myself to get quiet and still enough to listen

~ That to change a way someone is treating me if it is unacceptable, I must first change myself and my way of interacting with them

~ That if something I'm doing feels uncomfortable at the moment, it just may be a sign that I'm doing something right; comfortable = back in a rut

~ That feelings are transient and not fatal; it's the way you deal with them that matters

~ That what you need is available to you, when you truly need it, and if it seems absent you have to ask for it. If it doesn't appear, it means you have more work to do in order to have it come to you, or it may actually be a "want" not a need. (not sure if that makes sense)


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Originally Posted by Cadet

Particularly good michelle weiner-davis questions we all need to ask ourselves:

What was your role in this ? The break down of the marriage?
How did you play a part in that ?
What do you accept as your shortcomings ?
What is MLC fluff ?
What "stung"
How do you envision your future?
Are you willing to sell yourself just to have your marriage back ?
What are YOU worth as a person?
Can your soul be replaced if you give it away for a relationship ?
who are YOU ? Don't give me Father, Husband, and all of that stuff either.. YOU !! ????
How can you be anything for anybody if you don;t know you?
What values do YOU own, if you sacrifice them ?
When you can answer all of those....then you will know where your line in the sand is....

What are your limits ?
What is your tolerance ?
What defines you ?
What are your fears?
What are your strengths?



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Originally Posted by HeartsBlessing
I stayed on the board for over 2 years or two dispensing help, wisdom, and getting help for myself.


I'm one of the success stories that made it out. My husband and I did make it out of this darkness called MLC;



Many people tried to fit their situations into the time frames that I posted, and I'd tried and tried to remind people that every person was and is different, and the time frames are not the same. Maybe I was wrong for even posting times, when the focus should have been solely on the descriptions.
I mean everything takes TIME..and that's what you've got when you don't have anything else for the time being.


People, you must remember to work on yourselves, forget your WAS for the time being; there will be time to get to that later. There's a time and season for everything.

For now you're on a path that's not of your own making; what you do with it is up to YOU!

This is a GROWING time for all of you; giving you the freedom to choose how your life will go from now on. It's also a time of CHANGE; whether you like it or not.

I may not remember it all, anymore, but I still understand how it is.

From where I sit now; I'm GLAD for what I endured; as it made ME a better person, never mind what happened to my husband.

And took a LONG time to get there, let me tell you.

Life has NO guarantees, so make the most of the opportunity that has presented itself. It'a ALL in the attitude, ladies and gentlemen.

Listen to your mentors; pay attention to the advice they give, they KNOW what they are talking about; they are drawing on HARD experience. You will be in their place before you know it, mark my word. smile



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Originally Posted by Cadet
I named myself Old Pilot


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Keep in mind your W is not a part of your support group. Don't solicit her advise, just make your decision based on what is best for you and inform her afterwards. If she rants and raves then tell her "this wasn't your decision to make and I am not looking to you for support, nor am I looking to you for criticism. I am simply keeping you informed of what is going on." Then leave the room.


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Originally Posted by Gekko
I have been enjoying my days with the kids immensely and being very productive on my days off. Life has been full.

The settlement with W is coming along and we are down to some finer points that hopefully can be worked out over the next few weeks. I would like to have a signed agreement before the end of the year. I have long since moved on in my head and heart, and I want it formalized legally.

I remain cordial and all-business with the W. I am not quite as short and frosty as i have been, so there is some progress there. We will always have an R to some degree because of the kids. The way things unfold and the temperature of the R in the future is unknown. I know some vets have decent R's with the ex. Every dynamic is different. Something in the cordial to friendly zone is my goal for the kids sake and yes for my own sake as well. It's not healthy to harbor resentment. The more I have focused on the beauty of the present, and the horizon ahead, the less i think about W's past behavior. And my own for that matter. I've accepted my flaws and my role and am going to continue to work to be a better man.

It's actually a fun process.


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Quote
But do i confront her based only on this gut feeling that i have? I have nothing else.
Originally Posted by hoosjim


IMO you can't "confront" her based on your gut alone. Heck, even when you have proof.. even rock solid proof... a WW will often just deny it ("Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?") or try to argue around it or in some way put it back on you ("You SPIED on me!!"). I've been through it... I know.. and i've seen others here go through it as well. That's why, if you think you need it and can handle it, you get your proof, but then you never, NEVER share with her exactly what you know (because she'll just argue points about it or flat out deny it) or how you got it (because then a) she'll try to turn it back on you for snooping/spying and b) it burns that source of intel if you need it in the future.) Best thing is to just get the intel/data you need... and then stop looking, because you already know what you need to know. Then, when you confront her, you need only say "I know. I wont have an open marriage. I want you out". If you need to drop the odd detail (such as OM's name, or whatever, it probably doesn't matter) but the more detail you offer up the more you invite discussion/denial, which is completely unproductive, and the more you make it about HER and not about your boundaries... which is what you need to establish and enforce. You can probably establish such boundaries even without knowing for sure if she is in an A: "W, I know you have been spending alot of social time on your own... i don't know what you are doing, but I won't live in an open marriage or "share" you", but You obviously have a bit more weight on your side if you have some proof of infidelity, as well as, obviously, having been alerted to the sitch so you can be "on guard" (read the threads on boundaries for help, here... I was pretty bad at it initially.)

In my case, I flat out caught my W with a burner phone. Twice. Once when she had not turned off the buzzer, left it visible, and OM called her on it when i was standing right there and i picked it up. She had denials both times, even though what she was doing was clear.

I also faced denials when she had been up to no good and i knew she had been. I eventually learned that there was no point in continually policing/confronting her, and established my boundaries that i wouldn't share her or be in an open marriage. Later on, when she got caught continuing to contact OM (and, actually, after nearly an hour of sitting silent together in a car in the park, admitting/confessing to it) I indicated i was going to walk, and she offered to restart counselling, destroy the burner phone, and "no contact" OM (which she had already kind sort committed to before-- like i said at first i was not great at formulating/stating/enforcing boundaries. Even thereafter, it turned out she had been entertaining regular calls from OM at work, even as they were not "seeing" each other... a situation i would not have found out about had i not kept the options open on some of my surveillance by keeping details from her.

At any rate, Readers Digest version: If you think you can handle it, my thinking is that it is best to know, but, once you know, establish your boundaries (and enforce them, when appropriate) and stop looking. Keep the option open to spot check her if she indicates the A is over and/or otherwise wants to stay in the house or if she otherwise indicates she wants to come back to marriage and work on the MR but, otherwise, you know she cheated on you and the MR is, for the time being, over. Once you know that, there is no further reason to check on her unless you suspect she is violating a boundary or if she wants to "come back" and you need to spot check her.


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Originally Posted by JR425
I recommend IC. If for nothing else, it helped me get all the confusing and contradicting thoughts out of my head and seeing someone taking notes helped me to let go of a lot of it. I walked in to my first session and wasnít sure where I would start. I was out of my comfort zone but as soon as I sat on the couch, it all came pouring out. I put blind trust in someone I had just met to listen to everything I had to say, begin to organize all my cluttered thoughts, and determine where to start. Fastest 50 minutes of my life. I walked out with a significant weight off my shoulders and a little clarity in my head.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2870891#Post2870891

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by kbuenob
...last night I had sex with W.... but just need some advice on how i should act moving forward.


Just keep making positive changes to your behavior. If something is working, keep doing it. If something is not working, stop and try something different.


Remember that her behavior is not the measurement stick. Your behavior is. Were you needy? NO.


You will be traveling down several parallel paths for a while.

From this point forward, your job is to protect the relationship, in a non-needy way. Old you did not know this. The new you does.


My current lady has worked in the service industry as a bar-tender. I had to be comfortable with her interacting with other men, even her flirting with them. I was very observant. Keeping an eye out for red flags. You are in a similar circumstance. Be very aware that other men want your wife. How you respond is important. Controlling behavior is unattractive. Protecting behavior is attractive.

When I was married, I was ignorant. I allowed W to have some close male friends. I am sure at least one of these was inappropriate.


Right now it is important for you to keep challenging your current beliefs. Read as much as you can.


If you have another opportunity to have sex with W, I strongly suggest that you have some new "tricks" that pleasantly surprise her. Start doing research now. You have been with her a long time. She needs some excitement. She needs to be surprised by the new you.


Last edited by DS9; 11/05/19 10:37 PM.

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Originally Posted by Sandi2
When the woman is wayward, you have a different creature from any other, and are dealing with .......well, to put it bluntly.......sin.

Therefore, he needs to stop being this soft, passive, nice guy.

He needs to start showing strength, tough love, decisiveness, assertiveness, and firmness.

He has to deal with the WW, much like he would a defiant teenager, only it's more difficult b/c he can't punish his WW.

However, there are other things he can do.



I highly recommend reading the entire thread this came out of. Great words of wisdom.


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Originally Posted by Puppy Dog Tails


To me, "cake-eating" is when a wayward spouse gets some of their physical and emotional needs met by their OW/OM, while some of their other emotional, sometimes physical, and usually financial needs are being met by their betrayed spouse, without condition or consequence. When this condition is reached, there is really no incentive for the adulterous spouse to stop their infidelity, because they are "having their cake, and eating it, too."



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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50960#Post50960

Originally Posted by Michele Weiner-Davis
I really like this thread. It's very helpful and informative, especially to newcomers who are trying make sense out of all the expressions folks use around here.

I have stressed this many times on the board and I'm glad to see it stressed here again. Keeping a low profile works well when you've been pursuing and chasing, begging and crying. Going dark- pulling back and being scarce- represents novel behavior. Novelty shakes up the dice and increases the chances your spouse will react in new ways. However, as has been suggested, if you've been the sort of person who has taken a back seat throughout much of your marriage, going dark may seem like old hat.

The key to DBing, whether it's the last resort, going dark, acting as if, or just focusing on the exceptions, is to try something, notice the results and allow those results to guide your future actions. Modify your approach if your spouse responds in undesirable ways. Keep doing what seems to be working. This sort of mind set will get you a lot further than trying to think of what's right or wrong. If your marriage becomes more loving, it's right. If you push your spouse away and what you want is a close relationship, it's wrong. This makes life somewhat simpler.



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Originally Posted by puppyDogTails
Only a DAM (and trust me, I NEVER use that term, b/c I generally don't like it) characterizes an emotional affair as "just" an EA. To a woman, it is FAR more serious for her go give her heart to another man in an ongoing, emotional relationship than to give in to him for a ONS or even a period sexual one.

If you don't believe me, just poll the women on the forum.

ONLY A DUMB-ASS MAN MINIMIZES THE THREAT OF AN EMOTIONAL AFFAIR!!!


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Originally Posted by LH19
Go back and read your threads and try to view at as an outsider with no skin in the game.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
I say this fairly frequently around here, but no one thing got you here and no one thing will make or break things. It took a long time to get to this point and will take a long time to resolve it. Don't sweat the small convos. Try to listen and validate and be polite, and if you are and she reacts negatively then you know it's because of some internal conflict and not anything you said or did.


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Originally Posted by Bworl
Man up doesn't mean become an ass.

It also does not mean throw your weight around and bark out orders.

But I would honestly love to hear from any of the women out here as to whether or not they would have respect for a man who allowed a wandering female spouse to do whatever they chose to do and just accepted it.

To me man up means to be honest about who you are and what you think is appropriate from a spouse.

And yes, sometimes that means boundaries. But as J3B is quick to remind us, boundaries mean nothing unless we are ready and willing to enforce them. And that means consequences.

Consequences are not punishments.

We are not dealing with children here.

Our spouse, regardless of their wacked out emotional condition, knows dog gone well what is right and what is not. They might have become like an alien, but they have not left the planet. They know full well when they are crossing lines.

It's my belief that reasonably applied and enforced boundaries for behavior, with consequences that are for OUR protection and care, are not things that close the door or seal the deal for our wives.

And if you are a man who is tolerating a cheating, cake eating spouse, and encouraging that behavior by condoning it implicitly through your neediness, I think you're much more likely to be treading down the path of "sealing the deal."

A woman who does not respect you is not going to want to return to you.

There is room for manning up. In fact there is a strong need for it with some of the guys who come to this board. We just need to be good about making it clear just what that means and doesn't mean.


https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1537797
Originally Posted by sgctxok


You think this woman is going to tell you how to man up. I'm not.

I'm also going to tell you to be careful about joining in on the 'man up' bandwagon.


Only you know what you can live with. On YOU ... IF you experiment....try different things and monitor results. Honestly. Keep a log. Your buddies nor your friends here. They can offer brainstorming solutions.......but they don't live your life or with your wife.


Setting boundaries with consequences MAY work.....setting boundaries with a lot of discussion MAY work (because you're dealing with a woman).

Getting tough....I can pretty much tell you .... is you are LUCKY if it works. It probably isn't.

Being a pushover isn't going to work.

So WORK your tools in DR.....it isn't hard, actually.


But don't jump on the blame your spouse or get tough bandwagon if you'd like to keep your family together.


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Originally Posted by Mike85
I draw the line when and where it needs drawing (e.g, not letting wife and OM have my three agreed-upon custody days to take kids camping).

My counselor is helping me keep my resentment and anger in check

One of my jobs is to not make life with me less attractive than life with OM.



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Originally Posted by Mike85
I've lived my teenage and adult life in a way that adheres to the concepts of honor, integrity, and the sanctity of a person's oath. It's easy to follow that code when things aren't going well and the world, your friends, and family support you. Following that code when you've been betrayed and, in the eyes of the world, "have every right" to lash out is the hard part. The path that I -and many of us- have chosen is difficult, painful, lonely, and invites the ridicule of others.

I will stand for and fight for (DB-style) my marriage, behaving in a way that will allow me to look my kids in the eye, myself in the mirror, and at my God and honestly state that I did ALL that I humanly could to save my marriage and my family.

Yes, I, through my well-off, very protective, and very connected parents, have the resources to hire a barracuda and get full custody of my sons and keep 100% of my cash. But what would that teach my sons (other than not to screw with Dad, Grandma, or Grandpa...)? And yes, being a not-unattractive, intelligent, interesting guy living in a college town could almost guarantee that I could "get me some," but once again, what the hell would it teach my sons? I'm better than that. Vengeance in the name of "protecting myself" and/or bed-hopping to satisfy my urges is beneath anyone with a functioning moral compass.


Mike85:
Me: 47
Kids: 2 boys, 14 & 8
Bomb: 5/5/08
Married: 16 years, together 20
Divorce final 8/11/10
I remarried, to an amazing woman: 3/17/12...
"Once in awhile, in an ordinary life, love gives us a fairy tale"


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"If you stay in your head, you're dead." It essentially means know when to leave all of your analytical BS at the door and let your training and discipline work instead of over thinking everything and distracting..... You need to make "training" as realistic as possible. So when you're reading or whatever, try to visualize realistically because your brain can't really discern whether we're actually doing something or just visualizing. Build good mental visualization habits.


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This is great stuff right here:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2872011#Post2872011

Originally Posted by joejoe1
It's been on my heart to write this. I have read over this multiple times.

I'm a LBS or rather was a LBS. And when I got the BD I was doing all the wrong things. I ran around my city looking for answers. Asking every person I saw that I trusted what should I do.

I searched the internet exhaustively, looking for support and answers and I finally came across this life saving forum.

Were all my answers here, No. But a lot of the support I needed was, because of the life altering events that we were all living thru. I lived to read a post from Vets, helping me wade my way thru my sitch. Their responses brought me comfort and hope. I continued to read as much as I could about marriages in destruction and the same things came up just in different terms. Allow no disrespect, don't beg, plead, or show weakness, don't pursue, be patient and give space. These are the themes and pillars of a LBS. Out all of the pillars, respect carries love into eternity.

Can a person truly pay respect if they don't have any?

Respect cost, does a person with no respect for another truly love another. IMO, NO! Respect is not something that is just handed over freely, it's earned. It's action oriented. If a person is disrespected and the person who does the disrespecting is not confronted then respect is lost.

In order for a person to once again begin to love they must first begin to respect. In order for another person to respect another, that other person must respect themselves first. The longer the disrespect continues, the more the respect currency is lost.

But, in order to gain respect, it only takes one brave act, one act to show that disrespect won't be allowed. That act doesn't care what the reaction of the person doing the disrespecting is going to do. The only thing that matters is that the disrespecting stops. Once the disrespect is stopped, there are only two options, to respect or to distance ones self. But guess what, the distance option is a form of respect as well.

When faced with disrespect the right decision to be made, is first am I being used/disrespected. Why am I saying No or Yes. Am I saying "NO" to be mean or am I saying no because it's not conducive for me at the moment. Am I saying "Yes" because I think it will get my Spouse back or am I saying "Yes" because it's actually the right thing to do?

See, respect has nothing to do with being mean or nice. Has nothing to do with hurting another. It's all about a person, not crossing the clearly stated boundaries you have set. Respect is one person acknowledging that they won't cross your LINE, because they understand you won't TOLERATE them if they do.

Most LBS allow line crossing/disrespect because we don't want our WW/WS to leave us, but the irony/rub is the more/longer they line cross the further away they go. If you want them to ever come back and STAY, STAY is the key word, Respect must be there. The more respect they have the less likely they are going to leave.

So the first steps in winning a Spouse back, is stopping all the actions that show lack of respect and love for oneself (begging, crying, pursuing). Next start loving and respecting yourself. Next GAL, 180s, and detaching (not to escape, but too heal). Lastly allow no other to disrespect you and for all those that do, show them with action what doing so entails.

The purpose of DB or hope for a WW isnít ruining their life, itís leaving them alone and letting them see you grow and become stronger. It's Karma job to teach lessons, it's a LBS job to heal themselves.

JJ1



Also R2C, thanks for your diligence in keeping these quotes going, I don't read every post in every thread so miss a lot of the jewels of wisdom you re-post here!


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Also R2C, thanks for your diligence in keeping these quotes going, I don't read every post in every thread so miss a lot of the jewels of wisdom you re-post here!
My pleasure. Glad you are finding some too and helping out....


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Originally Posted by Gekko


So I am going through a D, and with a PMA things are better than they have been in a long time. It's not pump-myself-up BS. I am a better Dad, better son, brother, friend and person today than I was when the M was banging up on the rocks week after week. You know how you can go outside in the sun after a rainstorm and everything looks clearer, more focused, more vibrant? That is my view these days. No, life is not all sunshine and rainbows, but so what, it's still pretty great to be alive. The possibilities of what the day holds, or the week, or next year, are really endless. It's exciting. There is zero chance that a R that went bad is going to derail my train, there is just no way. I have too much to be thankful for and too much to look forward to. Big cheesy smile on my face now...





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You need to develop one (a plan). You need goals for yourself. You need a master plan that does not involve her. Get a life.
Originally Posted by hoosjim


Just to make sure this ^^^ does not slip through the cracks. THIS IS SO SO SO SO crucial. Establishing goals is a key component of DB-ing, both for your own health/sanity/personal development and, later, if it comes, for rebuilding the MR. The DB-ing books tell you this, the DB coaches will tell you this (if you engage with one), and your MC (If you eventually make it to MC and have a good, goals-based therapist, if not, RUN to find one that does) will tell you this. YOU MUST HAVE GOALS/OBJECTIVES/PLANS for yourself and, if in a committed (especially marital) relationship, for that relationship. Failure to have such goals/dreams, both for yourself and for your MR, is quite often one of the reasons the relationship dies. You need to have something to look forward to and work towards... else you stagnate.

You can start small, you don't have to have grandiose goals like "save the world." Start small, and achievable. Then you can add more challenging goals, but always have something ahead of you that you know you can achieve, though it may take work/effort. There is some mental illness history in my family, including depression, and one of the paradigms for attacking depression is "do the next thing". The idea is that, no matter how down, depressed, blue, or hopeless you feel, you keep moving forward. Find one thing that needs to be done, or establish one modest goal for yourself, AND THEN DO IT. Then do the next. Rinse. Repeat.

But you gotta have a plan. We're men. Men always have a plan. "Day to day" don't cut it.


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Originally Posted by CWarrior


I had a rather straight-forward divorce--I wanted out a.s.a.p. so it took 30 days to get terms defined and I didn't spend much time talking.

Me: "Here's a proposed childcare plan I downloaded from the Internet. I didn't change anything from the boilerplate. It covers everything from sick days to vacations to phone calls at each others' home. I picked a 5/2/2/5 because that's what child psychologists recommend for ages x and y. They also talk about week on/off and alternate days, but there's some shortcomings. It looks good but you're welcome to find your own plan. Her: "Okay, let me look over it." Me: "It's a weekend later. Any thoughts?" Her: "What does X mean?" Me: "I think X means Y. Think we should clarify it?" Her: Okay, sounds okay. I'd like <change> <change> <change>" Me: <Stews a bit>. "Agreed."

Item splits, we did a personal auction a week before I moved out of the place.

Financial splits were mostly straightforward--50/50. We did that the day we signed our agreement. The initial filing including restraining order to limit any hocus pocus with the kids or shared funds. That's why my discussions STARTED with her being served divorce papers. Service provided protections for everyone.


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Originally Posted by Starsky309
This is a much-needed and often-overlooked discussion.

People need to get off their high-horse about "game-playing," as much of DBing is based -- let's be honest here -- on reading, learning and then doing specific techniques that are designed to re-attract wayward or walkaway spouses. Are "180s" not game-playing, if the new, 180-degree oppositive behavior isn't something that is authentic to our usual selves?

That's just one example.

I don't advocate dating while married, at least not while actively trying to reconcile and CERTAINLY not without being honest with each other as to what rules are in place during that stage of your separation. But to NOT be willing to study -- and openly discuss and debate -- the basic laws of human attraction is to (in my opinion) remove 3 bullets from your gun before you even start.

It's a basic dynamic of human attraction that neediness is NOT attractive, and yet people want what they perceive they CAN'T have.

There are ways to build this understanding into appropriate DBing, and it can put your efforts on a much faster track to possible success.

Anyone trying to DB a spouse actively engaged in an affair would be wise to Google "PEA brain chemicals endorphines love lust infidelity", and do a little research. PEAs are HIGHLY addictive, and even show up on CAT scans! It is the drug that makes an otherwise sane, intelligent adult woman -- an astronaut no less! -- drive across country WEARING AN ADULT DIAPER (so she doesn't have to take bathroom stops), to avenge the loss of her man to another woman.

It's what makes an otherwise intelligent, successful man risk his entire family and career over a fling with a woman half his age.

Food for thought.


Starsky


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Originally Posted by 2ndtimearoundCA
I was having a conversation with my w about separating our stuff. There was a piece of furniture that we both wanted. I let her have that piece of furniture. To me it wasn't worth arguing over. I didn't actually say much to her during that conversation but she got very upset at one point. Since I didn't say much, I asked her what had made her so upset. She told me that it was how I was communicating with her; my nonverbal language. Since then I have made a point to be more self aware of my body language, choice of words, and speech patterns. Back then she didn't want to be in the same room with me. I realized that I needed to work on my ability to communicate especially when I was having a disagreement with someone. This endeavor became a 180 for me. The path led me to learning about the psychology of human attraction and charisma. That is the point of this thread.


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Originally Posted by 2ndtimearoundCA
It seems like many of us find ourselves using the LRT. We are separated and making the most of our interactions. We back off; we GAL we do our 180s; we sit back and watch what happens. We assess what happens and we make adjustments.
Here are the guidelines per DR for when our wayward spouse becomes curious or reaches out:

∑ Be loving in return, but not overly excited or enthusiastic.
∑ Accept some invitations to spend time together, but not all.
∑ Do not ask any questions about your future together.
∑ Be vague when asked questions about the changes in you. Say that you are just thinking things through.
∑ Continue to be upbeat.
∑ Do not say ďI love you.Ē
∑ Resist getting into conversations about your marriage.
∑ Beat your spouse to the punch when it comes time to leave or separate from each other at the end of an activity. You set the tone for going your separate ways.

Here are a few things that I have found worked for me in the past and I am going to implement them again.

∑ When talking on the phone, end the conversation first
∑ When texting, end the conversation first. If you have been going back and forth in a text exchange say ďgot to run to a meetingĒ (or something like that) as your last text.

o I read somewhere that you want to leave your love interest wanting more. When I first started dating my W, I had younger kids and would end chatting conversations to tend to them. She told me that it drove her nuts because she was never ready for the conversation to end. If you are naturally busy, then you will naturally do this. But if you have a lot of time on your hands you need to fake it.

∑ Mirror your text responses in length and take at least as long to respond as your wayward spouse.
∑ Look fantastic when you see your WAS, but donít look like youíre trying too hard.
∑ Be relaxed and cool

Please add to the list above.

Keep doing what works, and stop doing what doesnít.

My personal solution oriented goal is to spend more in person time with my w (once a week would feel like progress) and avoid a just-friends situation (interactions are flirty and not just emotional support).


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Originally Posted by Greek
Perspective. One story, and two perspectives.

Coach and I were talking over dinner tonight Ė well, I was talking and he was actively listening wink about what a difference it makes who is telling the story of a breakup. And it matters who is listening to the story, too, in terms of the advice and counsel.

Reflecting on a recent poster (Doodi), I was opining that if I had come on DB some years back and told my story at that time in the Coach-Greek history, I would have looked very differently to yíall than I did when Coach got on here and told his story. He would look very differently to you, too, in part because I would be telling the story. Perspective. Thank God he found this site when he did Ė donít misunderstand me. My point is that it really depends on who is telling the story, doesnít it? And itís not about honesty or the lack of Ė itís the lens and the focus.

So I wonder, for those of you on the journey to save your marriage, sharing on this forum, seeking, reaching out Ė could you construct a post from your spouseís perspective? To the LBS ~ what would your WAS post if they were the one to find this place first? What would their handle be and how would they title their thread? Can you put yourself in their shoes and construct that first post? Just thinking about that, whether you actually write it, could be so helpful to you.

Compassion. Empathy. Understanding.


Can you handle it?
Greek


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Originally Posted by Kalni
Number 72...

Logbook - Captains' Journal
Astro date, August 2078
Me and H celebrated our 107 birthday today. Thank God for Alzheimer, some days I forget about his infidelity. When he remembers my name he asks what else he can do to be forgiven. That's when I usually get really mad at him and tell him I want out of this M and want to start over wth someone new that loves and appreciates me... Life is ahead of me and dont want to waste it. I dont want to settle!! smile


Sunshine


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Originally Posted by MakingProgress
It's a matter of triage. The attraction is the last thing to come back. First, you stop the bleeding. The WAW needs to feel safe to express her feelings. She needs to feel that the changes you are making are real and not just to get her back. She needs to have fun around you and not feel badly for you or find you a drag. But it's not a linear thing. In the same way that the littlest setback can bring the panic and anxiety back in you, the littlest sign of re-connection can bring back her panic and anxiety and she can withdraw. Remember, a WAW walks away because she has come to an emotional state where it is less painful to walk away than to face the problems in her relationship. Someone (possibly coach?) compared the process to befriending a stray cat. I think that's about right. On the one hand they want to reconnect. On the other, they're afraid.

Finally, the books and the DB coaches will tell you to STALL any move towards separation or divorce. However, I have not been doing research into sitchs where there is a PA or EA and don't have experience there (I don't believe so, anyway.) I don't know if the stalling tactic applies in those cases.

Just my opinion based on my experience.


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Originally Posted by TreadingWater
Perhaps just asking this question means I'm not, but I'm worried that waiting too long to start piecing could be as problematic as starting too soon. Here's what's happened recently that I think means we're there or at least close:
....
4. H says that he used to think he would be happy if he was just with OW (instead of me). But, he's realized that's not the case. That didn't fix it. He's still not happy. Has he realized that I can't create happiness for him? And that it's not entirely my fault that he's not happy?


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Originally Posted by kbuenob
Then I realized that in order for me to heal, I can't harbor these feelings inside of myself any longer. I have to reach a place of acceptance. This is real life. All of this REALLY happened and IS happening in front of me, and I have to accept that. That is the only way that I can find any kind of peace. Then I started to try and understand what happened. I know my W didn't set out for this. She didn't purposely try to hurt me, but she did and continues to do so.


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Originally Posted by HopeCA
I struggled and continue to struggle with detachment. I also worried that detaching would give my H reason to believe we were growing apart. The thing that is most helpful to remember is that detachment isnít so much about the way you interact with him (though DB does have guidelines around that too, clearly) and has more to do with how much those interactions affect you and guide your choices.
I thought for a long time that to be detached meant to be cold and distant. It isn't. Itís really about putting the focus on getting to a place emotionally where you feel OK on your own, regardless of what is going on with your spouse and your relationship.
Donít get me wrong, I have NOT mastered this. But that realization helped me get a little farther along.

I also think itís Worth noting that detachment definitely seems to be much easier for some types of people than it is for others. For me it is extremely challenging. Perhaps it will be for you too. Be patient and kind with yourself!


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Originally Posted by Mozza

DBing
I accept responsibility for what I did in the M, by being too critical and dismissive of my W's feelings. I understand that my W was looking for something she wasn't finding in the M. I sometimes understand why she left, since she was miserable, and sometimes think leaving was too strong a reaction for the situation. I tend to blame her flight reflex and unrealistic expectations for love and family life. My heart wants to R, but my head tells me that it's a pattern with her and that I better not expose myself to it again.

My stance at the moment is to let her live her life while I reflect and try to focus on me. In January, I told her I didn't want to interact beyond the practicalities of the kids because I need to move on. I'm good at being silent and distant so the "no pursuing" rule is easy to apply for me. After nine months and little contact, I can say that detachment is taking hold. I see a therapist since BD and I've also started dating in May (8 months after BD).
_________________________________________________

SUCCESS STORIES
I update this list every time I start a new thread. Please make suggestions, especially with links to threads. I wish we had room in our profile to tell our story so that the vets and other successes could give us a quick summary.

MLC Success Stories

Reconciliation
Thornton (M) - May to July 2014
Train (W) - Reconciled in 2014
Labug (W) - March 2011 to December 2013
HopefulStill - reconciled in 2012
minkerman (M) - Reconciled after 4 months in 2008
25yearsmlc (W) - 2005 to August 2008
FaithfulH - Reconciled in 2007
sandi2 (W) - 2007
Coach (M) - 2008
MrBond (M) - Used to have another screen name
Starsky309 (M) - (ChocolateEyes, Puppy Dog Tails) - Aug 2007 to 2009. Exposed his W's A.
Butterflymom127 and FavoriteWeirdo - Thread
LITB (M) - December 2010 to May 2012
Raine (W) - Dec 2012 to November 2014 (MLC)
ReachingHigher (W) - April 2012 to May 2014
SM34 (M) - December 2012 to December 2013
AliSuddenly (W) - H left in January 2008, moved out, had OW. Piecing May 2009, married July 2010
kalni (W) - BD on November 2007, piecing in January 2010
Angel61 (W)- BD June 2010, H had EA, Retrouvailles November 2011

Piecing as of 2014-2015
(newly added) Kramer (M)
(newly added) edz (M)
Jefe (M)
T0324 (W) H leaves in Febr 2014, filed for D, had OW, piecing fails in Aug 2014, piecing again in Mar 2015
Crimson (M)
Heart14 (W) Signs 2014-02, DB 2014-07, Piecing since 2014-07
Nitty - BD in December 2013, piecing as of September 2014

Letting go
Love2Surf (M) - March 2010 to 2012
pearlharbr (W) - November 2008 to June 2010 (19 months)
Snow White (W) - 2008-2009. Let go when her H wanted back in.
Drew (M) - 2008
BigMac (M) - June 2014 to February 2015 WAW offered R at the last minute and he turned it down
Underdog (Betsey) D final in May 2005

Resources
Validation | Boundaries | Detachment | Dance of Pursuit and Distance | Acronyms | Stockdale paradox
The sandi2 collection: The Wayward Wife | It takes time | Letting back too easy
Wonka: The Starter kit / Post-BD plan of action


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Originally Posted by Wanka
In summary, the action list should be something like this upon arriving at the DB forum in short order:

1-Keep DB to yourself and hide the DR book. You don't give away the playbook to the opponent. ERASE all browsing history on your computer.

2-LOSE YOUR FEAR of WAW. Reclaim your balls back from her purse.

3-Pull out the "not willing to live in an open M/no-OM boundary" script.

4-Stop sharing the same MBR with your WAW. You are not willing to share her with another man. Tell WAW that "you have decided that you prefer she sleep in another room."

5-Sex? Forget it. It all stops right now. Same as above.

6-DO NOT have convos with WAW about the OM. You are not her gay boyfriend. You are her H. Do not acknowledge or speak about the OM at all.

7- Move all of your FINANCIAL assets into a new banking account with just your name on it (no more joint $$ with WAW) and cancel joint credit cards. Be sure to inform bank officers that your WAW is not to get a loan or open a card with your name ...they must call you first to alert of this.

8-Cut off all joint cell phone plans (you are not financing W's affair by paying for her smartphone to continue conducting her A on the family's money)

9-Only pay expenses related to children (if you have any) and other practicalities

10-Consult with a Lawyer to know your rights. Go in for an informational meeting with 3 to 4 attorneys. Keep it to yourself. Knowledge is power.

11-Cancel all MC sessions. It is ineffective as long as your WAW is in an A and just going there for appearance's sake to claim that "they tried." Pshaw!

12-Don't drive or pick her up from the airport. She can figure this out herself.

13-Make your own GAL plans. Don't drop them if WAW cries to you that she needs you to "babysit" the kids or threatens you.

14-Stop going into an overdrive cleaning the house or doing the laundry. Makes you look like the gay housekeeper from La Cage aux Folles movie.


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Originally Posted by Sandi2
LBH's should not let her back too easily, with no questions, no discussions or decisions. He had better have a plan and have an agreement from her to cooperate 100% with his plan before he ever says they can reconcile......then hold her to it. Rug sweeping is no solution, period. It makes matters worse, so that route needs to be taken off the table immediately. Neither can the H "nice" her out of her waywardness. This is where I think some of the LBW's here on the board may have a problem with some of the tough love advice. B/c they would love it if their bad H was nice, especially if he had been abusive. However, these ladies are not wayward, and that's the main difference. I am telling you it does not work with a wayward woman. It stems from those three areas......resentment, disrespect, and rebellion.


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Originally Posted by Starsky
To be clear, I almost always recommend fighting for the marriage EARLY -- for some pre-determined amount of time that you can stomach, post-BD (3-4 mos.?) Once there is an active legal divorce action, it would be very rare that I would recommend that someone "fight for" a wayward spouse.

A lot of it depends on "what do you know, when do you know it, and does SHE know that you know," so it can be more complicated than that, but generally speaking I advocate all of the strong moves (establish boundaries, firewall finances, fight for your marriage, aggressive affair-busting) be done EARLY and POWERFULLY. Over time, if the wayward spouse is still unrepentant and unwilling to end their affair, I'm more of a "RobX/let them go" guy.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2523723#Post2523723

Originally Posted by Stockdale paradox
You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the endówhich you can never afford to loseówith the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.


Read the entire post


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2524485#Post2524485

Originally Posted by Card29
If you're obsessing over saving your M, with every decision aimed at saving your M (don't upset her, don't offend her, want her to see your changes, make changes that you think she'll like, etc.), you won't be focused on the right things.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2524518#Post2524518

Quote
By the way, what she wrote is:

"What do you mean, pass? You don't want to have lunch? Do you prefer that we never meet then? It would make me sad because I think we need to keep some face to face contact, that we're not robots with each other. I'm under the impression that you're not interested and it's detrimental to our relationship. Explain it to me please so that we're clear."

Originally Posted by Mozza
Thanks all. I'm really grateful for the outpouring of support and suggestions for this milestone in my sitch. Here's a translation of the message I'm about to send.

"Yes, I suggest we don't meet for lunch. You've chosen to leave and now I need to reduce our contacts to move on. I'll continue to be cordial and to collaborate for all that relates to the kids."


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Originally Posted by DnJ
The removing or wearing of the wedding ring is a personal choice. Either way may or may not affect your MLCer wife. That advice is truth of everything. One doesnít completely know what affect our actions will have on the MLCer or anyone for that matter. That is why everything you do, do it for you. That way no matter what happens, how this all turns out, you will be alright.

You do not want to manipulate her path. I know it is tempting to try to speed things along, at best your efforts would be neutral, the most common and most likely result would be to prolong her journey. She has lots to figure out, and needs space and time. And she will take it.

That is the perspective of advice and suggestions. They are for you and your healing; and give the best chance for your marriage/relationship.


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" Today has been a bad emotional day."
Originally Posted by unchien
One thing I tell myself during the rough times is that emotions are neither bad nor good. They just are.

And all emotions are equally valid. Joy, boredom, anger, love, resentment. No judgment.

The hard part is deciding when to make a decision based on an emotion. There are times when it is obvious that patience is best, when the emotions are stirring like a tornado.

I strongly believe the more I get tuned into my emotions, the more I will just "know" what to do when the time comes. Because I'll know "This really strong emotion I'm feeling [censored], but it will subside in a day or two" vs. "This emotion here has been here awhile, and I identify strongly with it, and it is telling me something."


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Originally Posted by rogerrespondent
Retrouvaille works!!! We were scheduled to go to trial in my divorce on February 22nd and when we spoke we could not agree on the time of day...folks if you want to stop your divorce and you can get your spouse to go (this program is apparently in every state) then take what you have learned here and sign up for a Retrouvaille weekend. You will not be required to share anything in a group setting...you will not even have to speak to anyone except your spouse in the privacy of your room and of the 20 couples who went through this weekend with us I don't know of any who did not leave there committed to their marriage ad armed with tools to make it work ...they claim a success rate of 80% of the couples still being together after 2 years from their weekend of Retrouvaille (retro vye) (means rejuveninate or renewal) its not religious even though it is sponsored by the Catholic Church and its open to anyone who is tired of hurting and wants to start healing ...very powerful stuff ...very well done...extremely effective ...and I was the biggest skeptic you could imagine walking in the door.

Love...Trust...Forgiveness...are not feelings ...they are choices ...and they are verbs!!


Originally Posted by rogerrespondent
I rolled the big dice with her and told her that if she would go ...with an open mind ...and complete the program (I am Catholic and told her it was required before I could ask for a church annulment ...a lie which Plato would call a "noble Lie")and the follow ups with me and if she could honestly look me in the eye and tell me she saw no progress for us in resolving our issues and reconnecting again then I would allow her to "roll her own divorce order" (within reason of course) and we could fast track it if she wanted too...she thought about it ...she checked out the program to make sure she would not be required to speak at all and then agreed ... we plan on attending the follow ups but the program was so power ful and the presenters were so good and their issues were so far beyond anything we ever faced and the Catholic Priest who more or less MC'd the whole thing was soo good at bringing the issues into focus that out of 20 couples (sold out) who attended I could not identify any who weren't totally committed to their marriage by this afternoon when we wrapped up ...it's too bad that more spouses aren't able to pull their heads out long enough to take 2 days just to make sure ...the feeling I have about their unwillingness to put love first and give something like this a try is exasperation and as a feeling it is about an 8 on a scale of 1-10 ...if it were a color it would be a dark gray and would smell like rotten fruit on a hot summerday and taste like bile. (lol)


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Originally Posted by bballer1
I will do split custody the opposite week the OM has his kids too and she will not get to dictate that for me. See how she likes that arrangement.


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Originally Posted by Sara
My experience was that Retrouvaille was effective, counseling was ineffective. In counseling my quiet, reserved husband dominated the conversation and spent the whole time complaining about me. The therapist rarely moved the topic forward. We wasted time rehashing the past. In Retrouvaille the past was forgotten after the first morning. We never dealt with finger-pointing and incriminations. We dealt with feelings. We always had equal time to get our thoughts on paper and equal time to discuss them. There was no third party to take sides. Didn't need one. In Retrouvaille we spent an entire weekend focused on us, not an hour here and there carved out of the workday over a period of months. In Retrouvaille we could see the goal -- to be like the couples who led the sessions, and the loving way they interacted with each other. And Retrouvaille was a bargain; counseling was a financial drain.


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Originally Posted by PMA_Baby!
A friend just sent me this. Fits in well w DB, GAL, PMA.



HANDBOOK FOR 2010

Health:
1. Drink plenty of water.
2. Eat breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince and dinner like a beggar.
3. Eat more foods that grow on trees and plants and eat less food that is manufactured in plants...
4. Live with the 3 E's -- Energy, Enthusiasm and Empathy.
5. Make time to pray.
6. Play more games.
7. Read more books than you did in 2009.
8. Sit in silence for at least 10 minutes each day.
9. Sleep for 7 hours.
10. Take a 10-30 minutes walk daily. And while you walk, smile.

Personality:
11. Don't compare your life to others. You have no idea what their journey is all about.
12 Don't have negative thoughts or things you cannot control. Instead invest your energy in the positive present moment.
13. Don't over do. Keep your limits.
14. Don't take yourself so seriously. No one else does.
15. Don't waste your precious energy on gossip.
16. Dream more while you are awake.
17. Envy is a waste of time. You already have all you need.
18. Forget issues of the past. Don't remind your partner with His/her mistakes of the past. That will ruin your present happiness.
19. Life is too short to waste time hating anyone. Don't hate others.
20. Make peace with your past so it won't spoil the present.
21. No one is in charge of your happiness except you.
22. Realize that life is a school and you are here to learn. Problems are simply part of the curriculum that appear and fade away like algebra class but the lessons you learn will last a lifetime.
23. Smile and laugh more.
24. You don't have to win every argument. Agree to disagree....

Society:
25. Call your family often.
26. Each day give something good to others.
27. Forgive everyone for everything.
28. Spend time w/ people over the age of 70 & under the age of 6.
29. Try to make at least three people smile each day.
30. What other people think of you is none of your business.
31. Your job won't take care of you when you are sick. Your friends will. Stay in touch.

Life:
32. Do the right thing!
33. Get rid of anything that isn't useful, beautiful or joyful.
34. GOD heals everything.
35. However good or bad a situation is, it will change..
36. No matter how you feel, get up, dress up and show up..
37. The best is yet to come.
38. When you awake alive in the morning, thank GOD for it.
39. Your Inner most is always happy. So, be happy.


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Originally Posted by runningoutoftime
You let go of the resentment because it only hurts you. You let it go because resentment, anger, jealousy etc... is YOUR baggage and to be healthy and healed means you have to work through it and learn to let it go.

But people heal at different rates, and then there are some people that never heal. They just carry that baggage and all the anger, resentment and hurt the rest of their lives.

We probably all can think of someone like that.



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Originally Posted by DnJ
Good Morning Everyone

Another new thread.

Gets easier every time. This is my fifteenth thread, and like creating a new thread, our ďnewĒ lives, our new habits and duties become easier, commonplace, and ďfeelĒ normal. smile

I seem to reflect at the start of a new thread. Take stock, see where I am, where Iím going, and how far Iíve come.

I had some interesting conversations with some people at work and IRL. The conversations were similar so Iíll use one as an example. I was having lunch with good friend, one of the many who stood by me during all this. I told her ďIím back. Iím finally back.Ē She said ďYouíve been back for a while now.Ē I did acknowledge that and agreed. Yes, Iíve been back for a while.

You see, Iíve given myself a few months each time as a new stage emerged. Time to see if it is going to stick or not. To see if my feelings regarding it will change or not. To see if my thoughts change or not.

Iíve felt like I was back for a while. My thoughts came first, clearheaded, logical, reasoned, and so forth. Feelings confirmed this idea of being back to myself, well DnJ 2.0. My current status is - Yes, Iím back. I believe it, there is something inside, a force, a confidence, a conviction - Lol, beliefs are hard to put into words, they are made from thoughts, feelings, and something else, something very deep and personally defining.

As I said, others have seen that Iíve been back for a while. Iíve finally embraced and accepted this latest arrival along a growing list that creates my path.

I have way more good days than bad. I still have hope, and lots of encouragement within. And apparently still more topics I would like to discuss. Oh, a cliffhanger, a teaser. smile

Have a great day my friends.


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Originally Posted by KCameron
NO R TALKS. I don't want them. I won't initiate them and I won't participate in them. Almost every one I have had since this all started, and there have only been a few, are futile, upsetting and likely not grounded in current reality. The only R talk I will hear and participate in starts, with, "let's talk about working things out." Otherwise, go talk to yourself. I don't want to hear it.


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Originally Posted by hoosjim
Start by "doing the next thing". Google it if you don't know what i mean.

I and many others here hear you and understand your pain (and, boy, how we understand it... trust me) but you are wallowing. You need to get moving. Start small, but DO IT.

We're all here for you and pulling for you, but at the end of the day you've got to do this on your own... But you CAN do this... we've all been there before and it [censored] and it feels like death... but that's precisely why you need to get moving and dig yourself out of this. YOU have value... YOU have lots to offer... YOU can have an awesome life with or without your WAH... but that awesome life is not going to happen on its own. So get moving. Do the next thing...

Sending up thoughts, prayers, and cyber-hugs for you.


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Originally Posted by jamesjohn-Nathan
You asked if DBing has ever worked for anyone. I can relate to that question. Back when I first posted I asked the very same question and I received a response from Michele herself. Her response was "...Not everyone rides off into the sunset," but many do.... or something similar to that. I remember that response to this very day. It let me know that, although there is no guarantee, there is a good chance if you allow for it. After that I read here like crazy. I read books (I think I purchased around 10-15)....I still hoped & DB'd like crazy. I realized I had to do it for me. In the end, no matter the outcome, I would know I left no stone unturned.

I must say I was about to give up towards the end for real (and many small moments in between). I read somewhere that you will know when you are ready.


The one thing that she says made the biggest difference is the changes that she saw in me. You may not think she is watching, but she is. My goal became one of luring her back, not pulling her back. I did what I needed to do to make myself a man a woman would want to be proud of having for a husband. I had no idea if it would pay off or not. I continued to hope for the best, but prepared myself for whatever the outcome came to be. For right or for wrong, I guess I wanted her to look at me and realize I was a good man after all, and wonder why she ever left me go. I guess it worked, in the end she decided that she didn't want to lose me after all.

There was a period when I "Let go" and left her to her own. I left the door opened and kept warming the fire so to speak. I had to leave it up to her to come in from the cold. However, I kept making the fire look more and more inviting.

It's sort of like getting a wild animal trained to eat from your hand. It takes patience, patience, patience, and the food sent to lure them closer each time. If you try to approach the animal to MAKE it eat, it will run away from you and it will be more cautious of you in future attempts. If you keep repeating what made the animal run away, it will eventually give up and walk away for good, realizing that you keep repeating what it doesn't care for. You need to built the trust, figure out what works, what doesn't and keep trying till you are satisfied that you've done all you can.

I wish you the best and if things work out, the hard work will all be worth it. I became the success story that I had hoped for. It can happen, but you must work and work hard and give it the chance and believe. No gold, silver or bronze medalist never got there because they didn't believe and strive. However, there are still those that did believe, but still never got a medal. I still doubt that they regret not trying, for if they didn't, there existed not even the remotest chance of success. So if you want to achieve, you need to get a game plan and take baby-steps. One of the simplest goals I set was to simply make my bed every day. Sounds kind of goofy, but there were days when even that seemed to be a challenge. It was a simple thing but it was a start. Something amazing happens when you do that. I began to MAKE myself make the bed whether I felt like it or not. That then lead to other things which caused me to progress from there.


Found that post from this thread(successful men):
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=455497


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Originally Posted by Steve85
Accept 50% of the blame for the problems in your MR. That 50% is all on you. Guess who is responsible for the other 50%? So until she is ready to own up to her part in this then you owning up will just be seen as weak. Remember, attraction for women is about respect! Accepting more than you are responsible for will be seen as beta behavior and not worthy of respect.


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Originally Posted by David


I had made some serious changes in my life. I had made major shifts in my priorities. I had read everything I could concerning how women feel, what women want in a relationship and what women find attractive in a man. I read Micheleís "Divorce Busting" over and over. Each time I read "Divorce Busting" I found something that I had missed the prior time.

I also relied heavily upon my own belief mechanism which is, simply, whatever you truly believe in will become your reality. If I could see myself as an unconditional friend to my wife, irrelevant to my own self-serving and egotistical, natural human tendencies, I would truly become able to BE an unconditional friend.

Believe me, it does take two, ultimately, to keep the marriage together. But a single partner in the marriage can make the difference in whether the other partner wishes to remain in the marriage. My wife was able to see me in a different light during tough time in our marriage the second time around. She saw me handle, in a solution focused manner, what fate tossed at me. She was also able to observe me under pressure. After all was said and done, she had witnessed someone that had truly changed.

I am posting this so whoever reads it can know that Divorce Busting works. Divorce Busting not only works to get your relationship back or back in order, but it also works to keep your relationship in order. When things get tough, whether you are with your partner or not, remember the methods of Divorce Busting. If you donít remember them all, just pull out the book and read it again. Believe me, you will find some things that you skipped the prior time.

If you are working on making changes in yourself this is great, but also work on keeping the changes you have made permanent changes. You must spend a regular amount of time on keeping the changes you are now making and the changes that have made in the past, a permanent part of you. There will come a time when you will be tested. It is a fact that you are never so judged by others as when you are under pressure. Having made a statement, whether verbally or by your actions, that you have changed, will serve as an invitation for the testing of those changes. Be ready and willing to show anyone, anywhere and anytime that you can stand the test.

Most importantly, I am convinced, you must believe. I can attest, for myself at least, that my beliefs are my reality. Whatever you see yourself to be in your mind and believe, you will become. Period.

No matter where you are in the Divorce Busting process. Whether you just logged on today or have been logging on for a year or more, I am living testimony that:

DIVORCE BUSTING WORKS!!

Whatever you are doing in your own way, using Divorce Busting Techniques........pleaseÖÖ...

Keep at it and donít give up!!





"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by Gekko


W initiated physical contact with me for the first time since BD. She was trying to get past me in the kitchen with a tray of food and I had my back to her, and she stuck her butt out and knocked my leg as if I were in the way. I turned as she went by. I noticed she had plenty of room to get by without doing that. Then later she wanted a "family" photo of us with kids, which I obliged. My S was between W and I but she put her arm behind S and across to me, with her hand on my back, which she left there just a tiny bit longer than necessary after the picture was taken. At the end of the night, W left first and when saying goodbye tried to hold my gaze longer and her eyes had a flicker to them. So based on these developments the D is definitely off and we are now R'd....!!!!

I'm not looking at these tiny subtle little things from W at 13 months post-BD as having any consequence whatsoever. Whether a temp check, or feeling emotional and nostalgic at the holidays, or jealous due to my interacting with another woman, or an olive branch for friendship, or too much wine, or......, at the end of the day none of it really matters to me. I don't care enough to read the tea leaves or mind-read, I just don't. Why not? Because W would have to radically change some fundamental core parts of her personality in order to get me interested again. Otherwise, why in the world would I ever consider going back for more of the same? No chance, as in zero chance. I have faced the hard truth that I want to be with a woman whose is the opposite of W in many ways. While there is a certain sadness that comes with this realization, there is also an incredible feeling of liberation, and hopefulness and excitement for a future R with an amazing person who has what I'm looking for.

So again the question arises why am I here if I am not trying to DB? What value does my story offer? Is it helping or hurting all those here who so desperately want to R? I know posting here has helped me tremendously, but at what cost to others? I doubt I'll provide the successful R story that so many want to hear, one that will make them feel like maybe it will happen for them too. Most others here won't provide that success story either I'm afraid, but at least they have a DB goal of saving their M and are thus more relatable. I've got a different thing going in my sitch, a different mindset. So sure I wonder what am doing here on a DB forum? I have felt compelled to surf here and post about my sitch, that's all I can say, so here I am again. But I continue to have a lot to think about as I am turning the page to a new and more incredible life.



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Originally Posted by kml
Saw the new Mr Rogers movie yesterday. Tom Hanks was great. And it really inspires you to be a better person.

Today my son and I went to see Midway. Great cast, very well done. But man, war is the stupidest thing man has ever done.


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Lots of wise quotes from the past. Read the whole thread.

Here is just ONE:
Originally Posted by JamesJohn-sparkie
Looking for answers vs looking for solutions.

You driving your car and you get a flat tire. You get out and:

A. Stand there staring at the flat tire, looking for an answer. What caused the tire to go flat? The answer may not be so obvious. Loose valve stem? Picked up a nail in the road? Rim leak? Could be one of many reasons but you're wasting time and not moving forward.

B. Think of a solution that will enable to continue on your way. What can I do to make this situation better. The solution is obvious, change the tire and go on your merry way. You'll find the answer later at the service station.


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Originally Posted by jethro

6) Deep down, our Ses are still the same people we married. Over time, through all of the muck, they lost their way and are in a great deal of pain. Patience, forgiveness, kindness, and understanding (in the face of all the junk they are piling on top of us) are the only things that will help draw those people we married out again.
jethro


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Originally Posted by brandnewday
In answer to your question.....

There will be no Hollywood ending....sorry!

If you are expecting your Husband to show up on bended knee, with chocolates, roses and a box from Tiffany's, get over it.

For them to come back, and actually want to come back they are going to have to see that you are not the same person they walked out on.

Changes have to be made. Unfortunately, their changes take much longer, and it will take a long time for their growth to catch up to yours.

In the beginning when they come home they will still be testing you and watching you to see if you have truly forgiven them and are a safe person.

There will be MLC moments from time to time and the piecing requires alot of patience.

It takes time for them to feel comfortable in their own skin again.

The apologies will come and the remorse and bits and pieces of their adventure out in lala land. This will happen when they are ready to talk. They can't be bombarded with questions.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
GAL is not a temporary, just get me through my sitch thing. It is a lifelong thing. We should always be GAL! Just like we should always be self-improving (180s) and always being in a healthy level of self-differentiation (detachment).


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2019-11-06
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2870999#Post2870999
Originally Posted by curtis7
1 year post BD. This has been the most painful year of my life, but I made it, I survived. I am a better and stronger person. It has been an emotional roller coaster, but it gets easier every day. I have learned how to become more self aware and understand the impact of my words and actions. I have experienced the power of validation and importance of detaching from outcomes. I am grateful for what I do have in life and try not to focus on what I donít have or canít control. I am a better father and if my MR ever R, I will be a better H.

I am still married to my WAS/WW, no papers have been filed. That may be one of the goals of DB, but itís more about the LBS becoming the person they want to be, moving to a healthier mindset. Setting boundaries that protect ourselves and command respect. The reality is limbo [censored]. Accept it and make the best of it for yourself and your kids. I donít know what the future holds, but a year from now I feel confident that I will be in an even better place.

I encourage all newcomers to listen and follow the advice of the vets on the board. You will save yourself a ton of pain and suffering the earlier you are able to recognize your situation for what it is, DB, 180, follow Sandiís rules, set boundaries, detach, and GAL.

I never thought I would be here a year after BD. Itís true that this is a marathon and not a sprint. Enduring lies, cheating, and utter disrespect from the person that swore their life to you and vowed to forsake all others is a monumental undertaking. These trials can tear you down in the moment, but you will emerge stronger and better prepared to identify, handle, and thrive in future hardships. I commend every LBS that stands for their MR and does the right thing for themselves, their kids, and their WAS (even though they donít know it right now). Just remember that the LBS has the power to decide when enough is enough.

My story continues...



2019-07-02
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2855569#Post2855569
Quote
Greetings, this post lays out the potential plan and options Iím considering to follow in the coming weeks and months. This is the culmination of my research reading relationship and self-help books, listening to podcasts, watching videos on cheating, following advice from vets on my thread and others, and scouring countless sitches here to find what works and doesnít work.

I have given a lot of thought on whether to stay or go due to the Infidelity and chose to stay for a period of time. I accept that BD and the Aís mean the end of my first MR, but I still would like to start a new MR with my W. I have chosen to love and forgive. I have recovered, worked on myself, and am ready to extend this choice to her.

I have listed these in the sequence I would intend to follow and the likelihood that WW would go ballistic by me taking these steps.

1. Ask W to attend RetroV

Simple question to WW, without much pressure. Gives her the opportunity to look at the program info and decide if our 18 year R is worth 1 weekend of participating. The hope is she would attend, listen to the presenting couples, really start to communicate with me, and have a life changing experience to realize that our MR isnít that bad and can get better. I know that many donít recommend RetroV until the WAS has expressed interest in R, however, I donít see much harm in asking if sheís willing to attend. My expectation is low that she would agree to go.

2. Ask W to attend MC

Honestly, Iím not a fan of this option based on her mindset and active Aís. Even if she agreed to go, I donít know that I could actually find a pro-MR C that would be able to get her to look at us from a different perspective. I have much higher hopes with RetroV based on the format and environment. I would probably skip over this one in the short-term.

3. Ask Sandi2 to talk sense into WW

Mildly joking...but seriously Sandi, I would pay for your flight to Florida and I have a nice guest room in a pool home. How does that sound?

4. Continue giving W time and space

Iím really at the point where Iím over this. Patience is hard, especially when you know the betrayal and lies continue. First known PA was over 7 months ago and sheís had multiple APs, Iím not a martyr to wait forever for her to come out of the fog / valley on her own without action.

5. Confront WW on what I want, reinforce boundary, give her the choice, and move forward.

This is the option that I have researched the most and is coupled with letting her go and tough love. I have read dozens of sitches that addressed confrontation followed by a hard stance of enforcing boundaries with consequences, going dim/dark, moving forward, and/or filing for D. Obviously, each sitch is somewhat unique and this approach has varying levels of success. Timing is critical.

Iíve read many posts from PuppyDogTails, RobX, Sandi2, R2C, AS, Steve85, LH19, TxHubby, Joejoe1, Coach, Greek, Wonka, TimeHeals, FightingFit, GH31, Rockedworld, Theoden, SmileysPerson, Zues126, CDBear, Pinhead, etc. containing scripts and outcomes on confrontation. I highly recommend newcomers read sitches of the DBers listed above when considering whether to apply Tough Love.

Iím still working on scripts and the strength of the statements to make. I have a few different versions that Iím refining. The basic message is to say that waiting for her to makeup her mind is no longer working for me. As long as sheís disrespecting me, our MR, and our family by having a relationship with someone else, that she cannot have a relationship with me. If she continues to contact OM, I will consider all of my options, including D. I tell her that Iím moving forward with my life, then go dim/dark, stop feeding cake (try to get the horse off my property), and only communicate logistics regarding kids.

The goal here is to regain some respect, open the cage door, and let her go to maybe hit rock bottom.

6. File for D w/out notice

Self explanatory. My beliefs and morals have been compromised far too long as it is. Start moving down the path to restore a life that aligns with my moral compass.

7. Let her know we wonít be friends

This option follows one of PuppyDogTails confrontations with his WW. Here is the script:
ĒI should be clear with you about something. I have absolutely no intention of remaining 'best friends' with you if you choose to end our marriage this way -- by having an affair, running away, and lying to your parents and our children about it. We'll be civil, and we'll co-parent effectively, I'm sure, but we won't be friends. If you decide to end your affair now, however, and come back and work on this with me, going to marriage counseling, each of us addressing our issues, and it doesn't work out -- say after a year -- and we choose to divorce, then yes, I could see a time where eventually we could become good friends again, even though it won't be the same. But not what you're doing now, I'm sorry. This is NOT how friends treat each other, and I respect myself too much to put up with a so-called 'friend' who would do that to me."

I share Puppyís sentiments regarding how my WW chose to BD, lie, cheat, and separate without ever giving me a chance. If my sitch continues down this path, I have no problem delivering this message.

8. Send group text to APs

Tell the multiple OM to stay away from my W and stop destroying a young family or possibly better yet let them know about her lies with multiple partners and let them battle it out. Unlikely that I would take this step, but rather take the high road as opposed to these predators.

9. Expose the Aís to her family and friends

AllenA was a staunch supporter of exposing the A to everyone. Puppy is another that applied this approach.

Here are some excerpts from AllenAís posts:

ďPublicly expose her choosing an affair over her family and her home... make sure all her friends and family KNOW and that they also know you want to save your marriage. Educate them that you want to save your marriage and that you have invited your wife to work on the marriage and she is choosing to pursue her affair instead. SAY it like that. You putting all that pressure on her is what forces her to make a real tough choice...This is the best way to end this for you... Cut her OFF at the knees and see if she comes to her senses...Not all do, but its the best chance you have...Choosing
a. Marriage
b. infidelity.
These are the choices...Ē

ďItís also your job to protect your wife from the "grass is greener mentality" and momentary infatuations - these aren't MEN she's cheating with, they are PREDATORS.. they are exploiting her emotional vulnerability, it is your responsibility to protect her from THEM. Pursue no, PROTEST and EXPOSE -- YES. Educate your wife, get her into family therapy and teach her what marriage means in relation to an affair... and the dangers of infatuations and fantasy... she will just get used and hurt in the long run... my wife got used bigtime.Ē

I know that MWD is not an advocate of exposure:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2238652#Post2238652

AS and others currently posting regularly donít seem to be either: ďI think most LBS's are hoping it moves them from Plan B status to Plan A, but it never, ever does. It just creates a lot of resentment in the WAS, and usually the A will continue but go even deeper undercover (their attitude usually becomes "it's us against the world"). The thing is, she's separated and most WAS's don't consider it an "affair" after separation, to them they're just moving on to a new R. They think they're only "married" in the sense that some pesky piece of paper filed somewhere says so. I know you don't agree with that but that's her point of view right now.Ē

Highly unlikely that I would take this step as it doesnít seem to leave the road home paved and smooth. I just view this approach as causing far too much damage that kills any will to return. Not going to spend many calories on this option.

Ok community, thatís all I have right now. Feel free to weigh in with your comments, feedback, recommendations, 2x4ís, etc. I do appreciate everyone taking the time to read my sitch and contribute. It has helped me immensely in taking positive steps emotionally and with my life in general since BD.


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Originally Posted by Burned
Could use some advice on how to make this happen.....go out like an alpha male....
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
I can not claim to be an Alpha male, but I can claim to be a dominate male.

If I found out my woman was having an affair with another man, I would not be happy about it, but I would not tolerate one part of it. I would happily help her pack her stuff up and send her out the door to be with OM. I would file for D. Anyone asks, I would reply "It ran it's course."

I would make it absolutely clear that she is not welcome back. "I will not share my woman with any man" "I do not want to be with a woman that does not want to be with me"


IF SHE started begging be to take her back, I would be very hesitant and first insist on a "I am ending all contact text,email,letter"....lots more I would do, but that is where I would start.


Not sure if I am breaking the rules by quoting myself. I guess I have to test the boundaries.


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Thanks again mate for your tireless efforts in collating this thread. I cant underscore how often I refer to it.

I think I can speak for everyone here in saying we'd like to see more of your own quotes.

Cheers, DS


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Originally Posted by DS9
Thanks again mate for your tireless efforts in collating this thread. I cant underscore how often I refer to it.
My pleasure. I also have notebooks with quotes from books. Very helpful as well.

Originally Posted by DS9
I think I can speak for everyone here in saying we'd like to see more of your own quotes.
Start digging: eek crazy
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=19238


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
[quote=DS9]I also have notebooks with quotes from books. Very helpful as well.


Me too. I've got a ring binder with printed off stuff. If I was more organised I'd index it.



Mate, I'm 'following' you and some other vets on this forum so I can already keep up to speed with your posts. I put one of your quotes here, but found it very difficult to do and took about ten minutes with multiple windows open. I'll need t work out how to do it quicker.

Cheers, DS


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Originally Posted by Coach

When I advocate being friends while in the DB mode it is of the "tough love" approach. It's business like, it's centered on my best interests, it's brutally honest and it's loving at the core. The reason it works is because like what Gucci preaches is that I am "moving on," I am a better me - secure and confident (did the work on myself), I won't repeat/tolerate unhealthy relationship patterns, I am leading myself out of this mess and if you want to be married to me great hop on board.
One of the hardest things I had to do was hire a lawyer, scared me to death. My biggest screw ups around my wife involved legal stuff. But I know that playing legal hard ball back showed that I was not going to roll over. I know it scared my wife as well because it was part of the "moving on" process. Your friend sues you, how are you going to act? I understand the confusion and fine line this represents. I am getting a knot in my stomach just thinking about this. The nice guy, friend in me had a hard time taking this step.
My wife moving out/filing D papers was not a "friendly" gesture but it showed me she was moving on. It was actually a loving gesture for herself and in the long run for me. She broke the unhealthy patterns. Moving on means I care enough about myself to take care of myself. We project that out as being selfish, in a fog, and having a wall up. Moving on is saying to yourself that you matter. You are moving on to a healthier, wiser, stronger and richer place for yourself. People notice movement, the waiting place is a slow death and not attractive. Healthy, vibrant movement is a deal-maker. Move is a verb so go get busy.

Cheers



Originally Posted by orangedog
One of the best things I ever said to her was during that last week in reference to feeling squashed and a SSM. "I'm looking inside and I'm doing this work because whether it's with you or someone else, I won't allow those things to happen in a relationship again."


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Originally Posted by Gypsy

Because of a very rebellious teenager, I started reading on how to talk with teens. I learned to use simple declarative statements, talk less than they did (if they said 12 worlds, I'd say 8; if they said 5, I'd say 3) and listen. And to allow awkward silence. If my mouth stayed shut, my teenager would eventually start talking to fill in the silence. After all, what's brewing beneath the surface takes a while to percolate. It came in handy when my spouse abruptly left.

"Codependent No More" is one of the best books I've ever read. I never realized I was a poster child for codependence. Everything I'd done had been to help others, part of taking care of the ones I loved. Imagine my shock when I realized that what I thought was helpful was controlling and in the end hurtful.

It's a learning process not to 'help', double check, do it all. People.. spouses, children, friends.. learn by doing not by being told. And I truly believed I was someone who let my kids learn.. but whoops.. I did too much. They could learn but I had trouble letting them fail. Phrases like "I need your help for..." works wonders.


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Originally Posted by PuppyDogTails
There is nothing inconsistent in advocating a tough stance in GENERAL, yet recommending softening when appropriate. Whether you're an NFL head football coach or a guy trying to DB, it's always easier to go from being the hard-ass who then "grows/softens in the position" towards his players, than the other way around. Tom Coughlin (NY Giants) would be a successful example of the former; my Jaguars' Jack del Rio an example of the folly of the latter.


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Originally Posted by Coach
Make sure you stay busy now, certain days/times will get to you, be self-aware. She is hurting right now so watch your tone and message. Really listen to her beyond the words. She knows she is hurting you and the kids, just because it was her choice doesn't mean you can't show compassion. If you can't muster it up just be still.
Make some changes in the house when she leaves, rearrange furniture, move paintings, lamps etc.


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Originally Posted by Gerda


I just wanted to say --

CHOOSE YOUR KIDS! And tell them you are choosing them! Tell them you had this plan but you realized that you really missed them and didn't want to lose even a half day of the time you get to see them, and that even being in the house when they are upstairs watching TV is way more important to you than a camping trip with anyone anytime. They will love it! As a woman who has spent her life since being a teen working with teens, I assure you -- from what I read here, your daughter is clearly really struggling, and the thought of her locked in her room kills me, and I don't even know her beyond a few lines I have read in your posts. She is hurting.

I have made the decision to give up so much of my life just to be available for my son any time he wants or needs me, just for these couple of years when he wants that. Think of how fast the baby years went by, and all the times that you wished you had taken even more joy of that time. The teen years are the same, but in addition, her emotional needs as a teen girl with a crazy mom are beyond what you can imagine. I was that girl though maybe my mom was more crazy than your W. My dad was not an MLCer but he was pretty difficult and did many hurtful things. If I had had a dad like you, things would have been very different. Maybe I wouldn't even have ended up with a future crazy husband if I hadn't been so screwed up in the parent-attachment department.

I don't mean to be dramatic, but I am not going to be kindly polite about it like my boards-best-friend DnJ. I'm gonna be vehement and bossy. I don't think you should worry about your future relationship with your brothers-in-law on any level; I think you should keep enjoying their company when they initiate it. But I think you should invite them to be with you and your kids more often than being with them alone as "bros." Either way,I would drop anything and everything any time your kids not only need you, which might be obvious, but just when they kinda want you. So many times I have sensed that my son wanted me to be near, even when he was being a royal pain in my rear and was just playing video games and occasionally barking out orders for food. And every single time, after being terrible to me, by the time I went to sleep, he was pouring out his heart to me, holding my hand to fall asleep, asking me for a hot water bottle (he carries stress in his belly) and just leaning with all his soul into me. (Something I can only bear up under by leaning with all my soul into God!)



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Originally Posted by DnJ

Detachment vs indifference.

This is for the viewpoint towards our spouse, it is what we most struggle with. However one can be attached, detached, indifferent to any person, place, or thing.

Detachment is when your emotional state is not directly affected by your spouseís emotional state, behaviours, or actions.

It is the opposite of attachment, where your emotions change depending on your spouseís emotions, behaviour, or actions. Your emotional response is based on an irrational coupling to your spouse. This emotional response is uncontrolled and unavoidable.

We all remember being attached. When your spouse treated you badly, you felt bad or sad. When they behaved nicely towards you, you felt so much better. Then they left with OP kissing on the way out the door and you crash into depression and fear. You could not control your emotions, they changed based on your spouse.

As more rational ideas and thoughts gain foothold, more control over your responses is attained. When you are detached it is not, that you donít feel anything, you can still get upset, sad, whatever - you can just rationally see the reason and you are in control. You are not riding that emotional rollercoaster. A step towards indifference.


Indifference is the absence of feelings, or very little feelings, for your spouse. Where in detachment you could be still very much in love, just not irrationally dragged along - in indifference you do not have those passionate feelings.

Some say hate is the opposite of love. Not true. Both are born in the crucible of passion and are but a razor edge apart. We have all experienced those times where the person we love (our spouse) does something so stupid, or wrong, or hurtful - we suddenly hate them. Of course we get over it and love returns. We are deeply passionate towards our spouse and love and hate are passionate emotions.

Indifference is nothing, neutral, bland, the opposite of passion. It is like the feelings one has for a stranger, maybe even less. Indifference for your spouse does seem more than indifference for others. Their actions and our own defence mechanisms put more protection, more walls, more indifference between us and our spouse than between us and some man off the street. It does make sense, our spouses hurt us greatly, and our healing would cause a greater disconnect in response to the greater hurt.

Indifference can, and sometimes does, get to the point of just not caring about them anymore. Our spouses have this mastered. Some of you have experienced this from your spouse and know just how great indifference can become.

However, for most LBS, we still care. Our feelings of love for our spouse is lessened. However our love still exists in our thoughts and core beliefs. It is here that something amazing takes place, deep within who you are, and defined by your beliefs.

That love that you know you have, you believe in, will grow. It will transcend, freed from the boundaries of passion, it becomes more - you love unconditionally.

Without the love/hate passion, you love based on reason, faith, who they were, who you are, your long lives together, a belief that they are still inside trapped somewhere - you will love based on whatever your core values are. You will love with out the constraints of passion. You will love them, who there are, and it will have no detraction due to feelings of dislike or hatred. This is how it becomes unconditional - love based on beliefs instead of feelings.

A love like that leads to forgiveness.

A love like that brings peace.



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Originally Posted by Steve85
I had found her FB messenger messages to OM. I was too impulsive and confronted her. I wish I had just watched and monitored.


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If she is having an EA, I have the home court advantage. I see her in person daily, she can see I'm a great dad and I can beat the guy at his own game.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander


You can't compete with an EA. With you comes all of the daily problems and challenges of life. An EA can be whatever she imagines it to be- riding into the sunset on a white stallion with a bare-chested he-man. If you think showing her how awesome you are at cleaning house, taking out the trash, doing laundry and caring for the kids can compete with that, well you're wrong. It's a classic LBS mistake though, doubling down on beta behavior when you should be finding your alpha self.


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Originally Posted by Jack_Three_Beans
Speaking as a former LBS to a MLC spouse.

You will get through this. You will survive. Quite possibly you will be come a better person for this. A better parent, and have better skills in relationships.

There is no logic in your MLC spouse. No logic that will make sense to you. Trying to figure them out is a waste of your time and it [censored] you in.

MLC is a process and a journey they must go through on their own. During this time they will make horrible choices from your perspective and others as well. They will burn bridges and lose the respect of people around them. IT is not your job to prevent this, you cannot.

What you can do is help them rebuild, later if you are around when they come out of it. You can support them, because they will be so fragile and broken. They will not believe that you could forgive them. You might not believe you can either.

Your children are not your support during this process, you do not use them against the MLCer. You do not make them into allies, you protect them, and you are their support. You do your best to kill the vicious cycle and prevent your children from going down the MLC road later on in life and doing this to another person.

You could get through this if only they didn't do this to the children. The children do not become your excuse to be angry at your spouse. You take on the responsibility of a single parent now and you become the best single parent in the world. Shower your kids with love, but, very important you also have the responsibility to raise good people later. Bear that in mind, do not over compensate. Your children will be ok as long as you are.

The OM/OW is a symptom. The numbers of MLCers who have PA are staggering, it means nothing. Do not ever compare yourself to the OM/OW. EVER.

Time.
This takes time.
In the time you will gain the skills needed to keep your balance. And you will want a level ride.
One day the MCLer might say something that gives you great hope and the next take it away when you find out they have plans with the OM/OW for a clothing free weekend at a local BnB.

If they saying that gets your hopes up...be very very wary. Be suspicious and really do not get your hopes up. Because like a roller coaster, these 'highs' almost always are followed by a steep steep and fast decent.

It is your job to make sure the ride you are on is more like a float down a nice clam river and not the Tower of Terror at your amusement park.

In my experience the path back for the MLCer is NOT preceded by something amazingly wonderful like a statement of love, but a whisper of doubt.

You will snoop, do better.

You will make mistakes and go against the advice here. Get up dust yourself off and move forward.

LEARN. If you try something and it doesn't work, don't do that again, anytime soon. It might work later, but it certainly isn't going to work anytime soon.

This, all of this that you are going through?
This MLC, your marriage...it isn't over until YOU say it is.
You have the control in this. You have all the control in this.
Your marriage isn't over until you say it is.

DO not look to far down the road. Just look a few days at a time. In some cases a few hours.

You will change your mind, many times. You will give up you will stand, you will give up. You are allowed to and you will have our support here.

2x4's here have a purpose. They are wake up calls, do not be afraid of them.

You are not a loser or a doormat. You are a person fighting for your marriage in the most unlikely way, by not fighting.

You cannot beat down an MLC, you can outlast it. The MLCer is going to hit you hard and hit you often. You are going to not be there to be hit (distance, not snooping, not trying to figure them out, not confronting about the OM) you are going to dance around and avoid as many hits as you can. And instead of hitting back, you are going to watch them fall when they are done, and if you are still around you are going to help them up and tend to their wounds. You aren't going to fix them, you are NOT the white knight, the princess/prince has to save themselves. But you can be by their side and show them love.

That is how this can end.

In the process, you will learn not to controlling, to stop being a fixer, to learn that while you do not NEED them in your life, you like it if they were.

They will come through this feeling like a monster, you will need to show them that they are not. They might have been, but when they truly come out they will think that forgiveness will be beyond them.
You will need to show them that they are wrong by your actions.

This, all of this is for you, nothing here will fix an MLC...however, everything here can fix you.


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Originally Posted by Vanilla
I am a master at dealing with this: see my thread

Let's categorize

Spew- incoherent rubbish designed to put you on edge.
Correct response: STFU and walk away

Abusive spew: incoherent rubbish designed to but you on edge and insult
correct response: STFU and walk away, next day correct boundary infringement

Rant-
all of your "faults" that annoy them designed to release anger for them at your expense
Correct response- STFU and then validate " I can see why you might think that"

Abusive rant- designed to release anger for them at your expense and insult
Correct response- STFU and walk away, next day correct boundary infringement

Sulk- make you feel small for wrong doing
Correct response- STFU and ignore, act as if did not happen

Rail- designed to press your buttons keeps on about one issue, can even involve following you to the loo
Correct response- STFU and leave to go GAL

Disappear- designed to make you worry and apprehensive
Correct response- STFU detach and act as if all ok

Tantrum- no purpose whatsoever but feels good
Correct response- STFU and look surprised

Blame- design to shift responsibility
Correct response- validate and deflect if not responsible, if are responsible diffuse by accepting responsible then apologize then walk away

In all sitches detach and if necessary act confused.


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Originally Posted by Vanilla
Go sit with S, give him a warm hug, tell him you love him.

Hold, squeeze then tickle.

Just sit together watching TV , playing a game, drinking hot chocolate.

Be still and love, then have a pillow fight



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Originally Posted by Wonka
I think it's time for another chat with S11 about his need to 'take care of you' for it is an hellva burden on such young shoulders. And you can say that he does not need to report everything you say or do to his Mom and vice versa for her. I sense that he's in the "people pleaser" spot. What do you think?



Originally Posted by Wanka

I also wanted to address W's comment about not meaning to hurt your or wanting any of this. It's time for you to be authentic with some selective truth darts. Doesn't mean that you get all Wet Noodle and tell her of every hurt & negative emotion.

Here's a suggestion for the next time W trots out the same friggin script on you:

W, you've said this several times. To me, it is meaningless because if one is sincere in their apology, then effort would have been made to change the behavior that is causing damage to the family...especially to our marriage. I'm not seeing any genuine actions from you to end things with the OM completely. We are in this situation precisely because I am NOT willing to continue to live in an open marriage. You've made a choice where there's consequences. Very serious indeed. So don't talk to me like this....it's insulting.


Quote
IF she presses you, then TELL her that. "W, you SAY these things about regretting your choices, but then you continue to make those same choices, so really, I'm at a loss as to what you expect or want me to say, b/c clearly, nothing I say can change your plans...."


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Originally Posted by HPoirot

I'm remembering all the amazing advice I've received in just this thread alone about how to respond to her. Just text "What is it?" and leave it to her to explain herself. Don't make a big deal about it. Don't be surprised or outraged or otherwise moved by anything she says or does. Everyone here has said it again and again she's just wants to regain control and in her mind make me the bad bitter one b/c I won't play happy family with my wayward W. Just accept it and keep moving.


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Originally Posted by Wanka
I want to really commend you for pouring out the whiskey from the bottle. It is the BEST decision we've ever made in our lives.

Yes, that's right. You heard me: I did the exact same thing you did. For starters, I have always been a teetotaler with one or two tots of my lovely amaretto per year. In the first week after Ms. Wonka left, I came very perilously close to drinking a large amount of the amaretto. It took every ounce of my willpower to pour out the whole bottle in my kitchen sink. Whew! As you can see, I was in so much pain that I just wanted it all to go away.

A word to the wise about "wanting a woman"...please be very self-aware of this slippery slope. In my experience, I fought off the urge for a few years because I recognized that those feelings came from a place of 'neediness' instead of being self-assured and ready to give/share with another person. I'm glad of my personal choice to refrain from grabbing the next woman because it would have put me in a tough position.

By the way, I liked how you responded to W's text with "what is it?" query. Nicely done!


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2014-07-09
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Thank you all for the kind words, it's much appreciated.

I will be meeting WAW for the very first time since bomb on Friday for lunch. She asked me out! smile

She asked me to meet her for lunch today but I had meetings at work and politely declined.

We are still taking things really slow. We are flirting with each other like when we first met and I am letting her initiate contact about 75% of the time. I don't want to appear to be too eager. As time passes, I will slowly begin to balance it out.

Please note, I am NOT a veteran and I am FAR from truly piecing but I would like to share some things that seemed to help me. I hope you all can take something from this.

1. I went STRICT NC on the advice of the vets. I listened to everything the vets told me to do. Not once did I deviate. It was incredibly hard for me do. NC for me was exactly 30 days until she texted me about picking up her things from my house. I acted friendly and didn't fight her on it or ask questions. I finally initiated a text with her for the first time in week 7. It was friendly and I teased her.

2. I attended therapy and still am.

3. I prayed every night before I went to bed. First I thanked God for things I DID have (my family, my job, my daughter, my car). I also asked him to give me signs (good or bad) that I was moving in the right direction. Finally I asked him to restore my relationship if it was in HIS will. I continue to pray every night and thank him for the good things happening in my life.

4. I tried to help others on this board as opposed to only posting about my sitch all the time. It was cathartic for me and still is, hence this post.

5. When I did have contact with WAW, I always made sure to end the convo first. This was hard because I could text/talk to her for hours. I missed her so incredibly much.

6. I read Divorce Remedy about 30 times, lol.

7. Anytime I felt down, I would post here to vent. Anytime I felt like doing something crazy (pursuit), I would post here first and let people talk me off the ledge.

8. When the timing was right for me, I took a risk and contacted her. This was really scary for me as I was worried about backsliding and ruining things.

9. I listened to my mom when she told me "Let your faith be bigger than your fear". That was my mantra and I had to repeat it to myself 500x a day.

Thank you all for your support.

Thornton

Me 43
He 43
D: 18
D: 12
T: 8 years

Bomb 5/10/2014
Back 7/7/2014

Bomb 2 1/28/2016
Back: 5/2016

Bomb 3 4/3/2017
She moved away with SD: 5/27/2017
Back: 8/1/2018

Bomb 4 9/11/2019




https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2867872#Post2867872
Originally Posted by Thornton
Not much new to report, I'm maintaining NC with W and focusing on work.

I'm starting to feel so angry. A lot of that anger is for my W, but I'm also angry with myself for allowing myself to be in this predicament again. I wish I had grown a spine before W starting coming back around the last time. I thought I had but she has a way of breaking me down with her tears and getting me to buy in to her BS promises and epiphanies. I won't make that mistake again.




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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Anger is one of the seven stages of grief recovery, it's normal! Don't fight it, let it happen. The fastest way to recovery is through, not around. Google "seven stages of grief recovery" if you're not familiar with the stages. It helped me early in my sitch because it's a way to recognize and identify the stages of what you're going through and to understand it's all a normal part of the process.



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Originally Posted by FlySolo


I am sorry you are here. I hope you are able to find comfort in the words of the many people here with you. You will find good, kind hearted people here who are rooting for you.

I am two years post breakdown and I can tell you it is a long and painful road. But it will get easier. Follow the lessons you learn here, GAL, 180 and most importantly stay strong.

A couple of things that helped me:

1. Meditate - this helps with the sleepless nights, and also overtime, you'll learn how to be an observer of your feelings. Everything you're feeling is valid, but it is important not to let them take over. Learning to observe them helps put things in perspective.
2. Journal - offline or online, either will help. This will help structure the thoughts that go round and round in your head. Once you have it on paper (or on screen) read it as if it were someone else's story. The structure will help you to detach and look at things rationally.
3. Read other peoples thread. Respond. Even if it's just to say 'I'm here and I'm listening'. Knowing that there is someone else out there who gets you matters more than you know.
4. As AS said, find some GAL activities that involve other people. Join groups - climbing, running clubs. Get out of your comfort zone and when you're there force yourself to be present. Being present is one I still struggle with. Sometimes I can be out with people and still feel separate from them.

You asked a question about how to plan childcare without it seeming like pursuing. I find that (forcing) a kind of 'colleague' like friendliness worked best with my H. Try sending a message like "Hi - I am going to be in Madrid on xxx and would like to spend some time with S6 and S1. I would like to take them for one or two of the days. What days would work best for the children ". No pressure. Never any mention of also seeing her. Just a simple request to see the children. If she says no say, "Thank you. It would have been great to see them. Maybe next time". If she says "sure, then suggests some dates" respond with a simple "Perfect. Thanks. It will be great to see them".

Make your messages about your children. Not her. Never her. You (have to act like you) don't care if you see her or not. You can be friendly, maybe throw in a "hope you're well" or "have a great day" but nothing more personal than that. If there's something more regular, then send a "Hi W. I would like to sort out the childcare arrangements for the next few months. I can be in Madrid on the following days and would like to see the children. Do these days work?".

Your aim right now isn't to R. It is to become a better you and to build a co-operative co-parenting relationship. She needs to work through her own stuff. And she will do this according to her own timeline. Use the time wisely so that should she wish to come back, then you will be a better man then when she left. And if she doesn't come back, then you will still be a better man then when she left.

I hope that's helped.



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Originally Posted by Just_Me
Just give it a little time. Be the bigger person in all this. While you might be encouraged by this site not "to pursue", it's really only pursuing if your spouse sees it that way. You should first do what works. If going to see her works, then do that.


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Originally Posted by zig
10 Things You Must Give Up to Move Forward

1. Letting the opinion of others control your life
2. The shame of past failures
3. Being indecisive about what you want
4. Procrastinating on the goals that matter to you
5. Choosing to do nothing
6. Your need to be right
7. Running from problems that should be fixed
8. Making excuses rather than decisions
9. Overlooking the positive points in your life
10. Not appreciating the present moment



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Originally Posted by Kansha
I found the key to detachment!!!!!!
It isnít about detaching at all. Itís about shifting your focus. The book to read is: ďExcuse Me, Your Life is Waiting.Ē By lynn grabhorn.
I read most of the chapters and was trying to do the following and some pretty amazing things were happening. But it was really hard to do it all the time (look at what weíve been dealing with ). In the last chapter she breaks it down and the key is having a flip-switch. See the following. Iíve been doing this for 5 days and every time I think about my life with H or anything that doesn't feel good, I think and feel my self-appreciation word (see explanation below). You know how when you smile, your endorphins kick in and you feel a little bit better. You have to find that place. So when you are flip-switching you also try to FEEL something from the positive vibration list. One I use that always kicks in is my dog wagging his tail at me trying to get me to let him in. It always makes me feel happy. But for most of us itís hard to go there (that happy feeling)(letís face it we are not happy about our spouses behavior) even when we want to, so hence, the ďFLIP SWITCHĒ This is NOT positive thinking but positive feeling and it is not affirmations or meditation either.
Feel free to ask me questions about this. It will help you!!! Absolutely!!! But go out and RUN do not walk to get this book and read it cover to cover. Itís in the metaphysical section but youíll probably have to get them to order it.
Thoughts that cause one to be on a Low Vibrational Frequency:

∑ Resentment
∑ Judgment
∑ Criticism
∑ Anger
∑ Doubt
∑ Frustration
∑ Mild concern
∑ Stress
∑ Worry
∑ I canít
∑ I wonít
∑ Loneliness
∑ Guilt (you get the picture)

Thoughts that cause one to be on a High-Vibrational Frequency:

∑ Appreciation
∑ Gratitude
∑ Humor
∑ Enthusiasm
∑ Reverence
∑ Awe
∑ Generosity
∑ Love
∑ Delight
∑ Pleasure
∑ Exhilaration

How to find a ďflip- switchĒ to switch from a low frequency to a high frequency:

Pick a different word or phrase of self- appreciation each day and whenever you are thinking/feeling on a low Vibrational realm, think your self -appreciation word or phrase for that day. This is the key to get yourself on a high Vibrational level, to pull the things that you want to you. This is the flip switch. Practice for 30 days with 30 different self Ėappreciational words/ phrases. Stick with the same one for the entire day. All of a sudden your always feeling good and lots of good stuff starts happening. I would tell you some of the amazing stuff that has happened to me but Iím sure that would give me away. Though just telling you this will surely give me away. But for you all who are so courageous and true it is worth it. I'm the one who stopped posting cause I was really down. Now things are starting to look up and I have had no conversations with H about anything.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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The truth is we create our own reality. The only things we have control over, are our thoughts, feelings and choices we make. We need to be responsible for our choices. Our choices create our reality. What ever we think, is what we become. It all starts with thoughts. If your not happy with how things are, change your thinking.

You have listed a number of negative thoughts and a number of positive thoughts. Our thoughts lead to our feelings. If we don't like what we are feeling, change our thoughts.

Our mind is thinking millions of thoughts consciously and subconsciously, from dealing with the function of our body and it's systems, and the external environment it finds itself in.

Trying to focus our thoughts on positive things is critical to being happy and feeling good about ourselves. The choice is ours. How we talk to ourselves in our inner conversation with ourselves, leads directly to how we feel about ourselves.

God has given us everything we need to be happy, successful and have a fulfilling life.
We need to have the awareness that it all is within each of us. We just need to look there.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
Two key points:

1) your instincts are usually right

2) the truth always seems to have a way of coming out.

Confronting, not confronting, whatever, will not make this come about or prevent it from coming about. What I can warn you about is this: if you confront, she will do a lot more to cover her tracks. After I initiated BD, my W changed all of her passwords, PINs, and started signing out of apps (I found out the messages for her EA in Facebook messenger app on her PC, even though she was messaging with him on her phone.) Take AS's advice, do not confront until you have the evidence you need. Otherwise she will start jumping through hoops to hide things.


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Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Something is up. Not sure if she was with OM but it sounds pretty clear she was lying about where she was going. I think the bottom line here is that like many WAS's, she already considers you divorced except for some pesky legal document filed somewhere. So she's doing what she wants to do, and doesn't feel obliged to tell you what it is. This is very typical behavior with waywards. You don't really have enough evidence to confront her. If you do confront her she's going to gaslight you until you're questioning your own sanity. So I wouldn't confront. If you really need to know then hire a PI and get it over with. The "not knowing" was driving me crazy in my sitch until I finally said to myself that I would just assume the worst and proceed accordingly. So I just assumed she was having an A, and the interesting thing was that after that, I no longer cared about the texting in the bathroom and the falling asleep with her phone in her hand and the mysterious times she went missing with no explanation. That for me was the beginning of detachment.


Originally Posted by AnotherStander
And if and when you do confront her, there is no need for lengthy explanations. Short and simple. There is nothing that has more impact than a brief statement such as "I know what you are doing and it is unacceptable." Queue the gaslighting. "What? I'm not doing anything, you're paranoid. What is this "evidence" that you think you have? Maybe you're the one having an affair! I bet you're doing this to try and cover your own guilt!" Don't fall for it. "I don't need to explain, I know, and there's nothing more to say." Then walk out of the room.




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Originally Posted by AnotherStander


Instead of turning into an apology machine you should have just listened and validated. "Reading your comments, it sounds like you felt isolated and alone, is that the way I made you feel?" "Yes, blah blah blah" "I am sorry you feel that way, it must be very frustrating." Notice you are not apologizing for anything YOU did, and you are not even agreeing with her. You are listening to her feelings, and validating them. Period. Then you go about your day like nothing happened. Why? BECAUSE NOTHING HAPPENED. All that spew, it is a reflection of how she feels at this moment in time. Her feelings will change in a year, or a month, or a week, or 5 minutes. She loved you, and she changed to not loving you. Guess what, she can change right back again and probably will.



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Originally Posted by LovingIt


Took a lot of reading, researching, cross referencing different videos, books, websites... and what I finally gathered is that attraction works at a subconscious level. Over the span of the marriage, your wife gradually lost respect / attraction for you. She may not have lost it intentionally or maliciously, but this is what happens to most marriages here, and this is how she feels now.

At this point, you need to consider her an ex, and figure out how to make yourself more confident / mysterious / attractive. Imagine yourself single and just starting to date this person again.


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Originally Posted by unchien
In your W's eyes, you can do nothing right. She doesn't know what she wants, but she definitely doesn't want you right now. She's going to find things you are doing wrong and saying wrong on a regular basis. They may seem completely irrational. Ignore the reasoning, pay attention to the feelings. Validate. Understand what is going on, accept it, then decide how you want to conduct yourself according to your values. If you think you need to be more gracious and humble, do it. If that is NGS speaking, then you may have some deeper work to do about how you want to live your life. Confidence, assertiveness, self-respect... these all come from a place within. Work on finding yourself. I guarantee you'll be happier, and you will also increase the odds of saving your MR.



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Originally Posted by LovingIt
What do you mean by concrete? Like specifics of what I will be doing for GAL, 180, tough love, detach?
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Yes. The details matter. So many people stay in the abstract concepts. Posters need to be in the details.
Originally Posted by LovingIt
Okay... let's give concrete a shot...

GAL
- Mondays - gym after work
- Tuesday / Thursday - basketball
- Wednesdays - still figuring it out - maybe indoor bike trainer or chores at home. also looking into some volunteer such as tutoring, local food bank, or find classes to learn how to cook
- Friday / Saturday - same as before, hangout with friends, go out dancing if there's a good show in town... until there's snow on the hills, then I'll be snowboarding smile
- Sunday - football / golf / biking / snowboard (depending on season), house chores

I found that partying with friends doesn't actually make me feel any better after though - it's a good distraction but I don't grow from it. Would like to meet some new friends, so hoping volunteering or cooking classes could help with that.

Reading and researching some the recommended books and learning actually makes me feel better. I'm a very logical person, so I find that the research helps me make sense of the sitch and why / how we are here, and the data and pattern makes it less personal, so I don't feel like WW is the single worst person in the world doing this to me specifically.

180
- No more angry outbursts
- No more childish possessive behavior
- Keep the home tidy
- Stop hoarding, donate unused stuff
- Put a little more effort into my appearance, I'm in good physical shape but I get away with dressing too casual working in tech
- Read more books - prior to this, I never really read that much
- Cut back on drinking and smoking (next year, after my trip)

Tough love
- No contacting WW
- Be neutral when interacting with WW (earlier, I mistakenly took "tough love" as being cold)
- Be independent and confident

Detach
- Be okay with any outcome
- Stop trying to "win"


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Originally Posted by Twofeet

Hey all, it has been a while. I still lurk these forums from time to time, but I rarely post. People come and go, new faces, new stories, but in the end its all still a similar problem with no easy answers. We talk about how the walkaway/wayward spouse has blinders on. How could they do this, why would they do this, why didn't I do things differently, etc.

However, us LBS definitely have our own blinders on as well. I knew I had those blinders on during the process, but it took some time for them to really come off. It took some time for me to realize who she became and was different than who I thought she was. I thought she was the person I was married to in the first 2 to 3 years of our marriage. Despite that especially in the last 3 years of our marriage she had changed and I couldn't see it. Now that we have been D those attitudes and behaviors she has have only been exacerbated, and have become even more unattractive. I still think about things and surprise myself from time to time, and wonder why I accepted and tolerated certain actions and behaviors. It is not who I am or whom I ever was. I think from my perspective it was to carry that cross and just to make it work without really tackling the real problems head on. Towards the end years of the marriage as much as I do not like who she became, I do not like part of who I was in response to her. Do I wish I still had my M? Yes of course, but only in the fantasy of what I thought it was, not the reality. I look back at what we had and I look now, and it saddens me, especially for my children. I shake my head and think what a d@mn shame. However, these are the scars I carry and who I am is much better than a fantasy.


The co-parenting with the exW has been an interesting ride....Anyone who is co-parenting just put your kids first and don't back down to the exS demands at the determent of your children.



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Originally Posted by PigPen
My path continues... I've still got growing to do, strengths to gain, experiences to have, and lessons to learn. If they have to be learned through the pain of losing the woman I love, I'm just going to have to learn them that way. On some level I know it's better than not learning them at all.

May all of your weekends be filled with peace and strength.


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Originally Posted by BluWave


Iím sorry you are here. I know how much it truly svcks. Your sitch is a real bummer, but not a unique one. The longer we read the forums, the easier it becomes to spot patterns and repeating themes. Itís just different people involved. I live in a very diverse area and have several LGBTQ friends, and I think the dynamics of infidelity are quite similar in all types of relationships. I say that because I don't like to gender stereotype, but there are some differences. I do notice that two women in a romantic R tend to develop intense emotional connections faster than other types of Rs. Also I think that those same Rs can be more of a challenge to end or walk away from. Iím not sure how much that matters, but it sounds like your WW is deeply connected to her OW, and that most likely is separate from her feelings for you. Her feelings for you both are not inversely proportional.

I am sorry to write this next part but I want you to really take this in: there is nothing you can do to change her feelings, break them apart or steal/win her back. I got caught up in those games myself and it simply won't work. I also tried to convince myself that I wasn't doing that and that I was letting go, detaching, etc, but I wasn't. I don't think you are either.

I have read most of this thread, but not your first thread. Iím reading that you and your posters focusing a lot on the intentions of the WS (ie they are simply confused vs being manipulative, they are cake eating vs can't make up their mind, they are a psychotic sociopath vs a lost and loving soul, etc, etc). I would like to challenge all of you on your thinking and say that none of it matters. You are all doing this because the more you can come to understand your WS/WAS, the more sympathy you have for them and therefore the more you can allow their mistreatment of you in the guise that they are somehow still connected. to you. I am sorry but this doesn't work.

You can never know with 100% certainty what they are thinking, wanting, what their "true" intentions are, and ultimately what will happen in the future. It is impossible. Why? 1. Because mind reading never works and 2. They don't actually know themselves. Just like you, theyre constantly in a whirlwind of emotions, confused, and changing. So trying to figure this out only hurts you and it also holds you back from putting your energy into what you can control. You can control how you live your own life without them moving forward. A lot of people try and convince us they are doing that, only to post the next week they are just waiting in the wings for any table scraps. Then they read into said table scraps and attribute meaning to suit their own narrative. Stop doing that.

I am going to be hard on you, and I am sorry for that but I want to help you. You sound a little pathetic. Do you feel that way? Is this the woman your W was initially attracted to? She is actively engaged in an ongoing A and breaking your heart and you are just waiting around for any little bit of attention or interest from her. That cannot feel very good. Does it? You see a big part, the only part, of dropping the rope, going dark and letting them be, is NOT TO PLAY GAMES AND WIN THEM BACK, but it is for you. For your own SELF PRESERVATION. Because you value yourself and only give your heart to people that know how to treat you. If you cannot do that, then you only attract people that walk all over you and don't respect you. She will continue to treat you this way until you start treating yourself better and find your own worth. How do you deserve to be treated?

My strong advise is to do a 180 on her. Drop the rope. Go dark. If she wants to text, call, beg, kick scream cry, promise to end it with OW, then fine. She can do whatever she wants, that is her problem. But take a good 3-6 months and take care of yourself, GAL like crazy, and find your own value again. You can simply tell her that you have decided you need time to think and to please give you space. Then you stick to your words. It won't be easy, but your only other alternative is to accept that your W is a cheater, loves OW and will come and go as she pleases. Right now you are teaching her that that is okay with you. If it's not, then you need to make big changes. You can do this.



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Originally Posted by unchien
The script is simple:

Her: I want a D.

You: I understand you want a D. I want to work on the MR. But it takes two to stay married, and only one to D. I will not stand in your way.

Her: Blah blah blah.

If you have a boundary to assert, state it. Read up on boundaries if you intend to do this.

Otherwise you validate the h3ll out of her and clam up your feelings. If you can't handle things, you politely leave. I strongly advise you try to hang in there and stay as neutral as you can, within your limits.

She does not want to hear your feelings. She will recoil. Any feeling you share will be invalidated, unless it is a feeling that furthers her goal. (For instance, if you say, "I'm committed to being positive whatever happens" she will think "Great! Now I feel less guilty!") So you share nothing, until she commits to working on the MR. Leave her to deal with her own feelings.


If it helps, think of validation and active listening at this time like holding up a mirror to deflect all the cosmic death rays pointed at you.


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Originally Posted by kas99
I'm 8 months ahead of you with a cheating husband so here is my advice in no particular order. This isn't about DB'ing it's about protecting yourself. I'll leave DB'ing to the veterans.

1) The advantage to filing first is that it puts the other person on defense, you get to go first in court and you control the process. If you want to postpone you can. You have time to plan, to shop around for an attorney, to pay the retainer, and fill out the paperwork. Go to court if you can and watch litigators in action. Find an attorney you like and schedule a free consult. The attorney works for you so if they push you to file, settle for some every other weekend custody walk away. I did all of these things but file 3 weeks after WAH left. When I was ready to file all I had to do was text her. She emailed me the complaint the next day to sign/date and it was done.

2) That said you are not ready to do anything until you have a plan. You can count on that she is already planning and that she is 10 steps ahead of you. You need to catch up. Cut back all spending, cut, cut, cut take back control of the finances (if you can). Live as if you are divorced NOW. Hope for the best prepare for the worst.

3) Your number one goal is custody. Focus on that first. Keep a journal and document all the time you take care of the kids vs when she's gone. Be super dad and while you probably won't need this it is better to be safe than sorry. Do not let her see you doing this.

4) Your kids are little and while it will still be hard they will adjust quicker than older kids. I've got teenagers and I'm about to have to put my 17 year old on anti depressants. I know now that WAS's don't care about anyone but themselves. You can't nice them back, guilt them back and they don't really care who they hurt as long as THEY are happy. They will (sometimes) use the part where you want to "nice" them back to their advantage. Don't fall for this. No one ever came back because they got a great divorce settlement. They come back when they are broke and their new life stinks.

5) Do NOT move out of the house. Ever. If she wants out she can leave.

6) Gather all financial documents and put them in a safe place. Might be harder to get them later. I did this in week 2. He has yet to ask for them so I have successfully caught him by surprise. I have everything. Birth certificates, car titles, tax returns, credit card statements, everything. If there is anything you want out of the house take care of that now. My own ex best friend moved out while her husband was at work.

Look you sound like a great guy and I pray you won't need any of this advice but do it anyway. You'll regret doing too little but you won't regret doing too much. I stayed in limbo for 5 months because that was when the lease was up and he forced me to move. At that point I knew I'd probably have to file soon. I filed in month 7.



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Originally Posted by Gekko
I think if you focus on leading a full and fun-filled life, the women will just show up. Building a career, taking care of my financial, emotional, mental, spiritual and physical health has always paid enormous dividends, along with developing and maintaining close friendships, family connections, hobbies and interests. Some people don't want to put in the work, and what they get out of life will reflect what they put into it. Everyone on this forum is capable of being better, of putting in more effort and of building an incredible life, regardless of what happens with their M. Do the work and great things will come your way, you'll see.


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Originally Posted by Gekko


Sorry you're going through a rough time. Addressing your underlying anxiety issues will probably have a very positive and widespread effect on you and your sitch. Get great help with this and really work at it. Really dig in on this man.

You are struggling with the counter-intuitive nature of the advice you are getting here. I get it. But the reason the vets' advice carries so much weight is that they have seen so many sitches over the years and the same scenarios play out in similar fashion over and over and over. There are exceptions to every rule but the odds are stacked heavily against you that you have an exceptional sitch. You have been referred to Sandi's Rules. You can follow them, or you can do the opposite if you like.



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Ready2Change,

Time for a new thread and link this one to it.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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