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#2869791 10/29/19 03:53 AM
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Hello Everyone,

This is my first post so please bare with me. It's been almost 4 months since my sweetheart told me that she no longer loves me. She never once said she wanted a divorce, but gave me the ILYBNILWY speech and it's been really tough. After scouring the internet for any information that could help me, I've concluded that she is having a MLC. Here's some background...

My sweetheart and I have been together pretty much since high school. We broke up after high school, lived separate lives, then found each other again around 4 years later. Man, we were so passionate and fell in love, moved to another state and started new lives with each other. We've been together for almost 20 years, and married for 10. We have a 10B together and I have 2 older kids from a previous marriage. My W is a beautiful person, inside and out. Just a really sweet soul.

We've had a few really bad fights where there's been some harsh yelling and cussing at each other over the years, but never physical. We would have some arguments here and there, and then spans of total happiness (in my mind) where everything was great. Not until around 6 months ago did we have ANY fights where the word SEPARATE was ever uttered. There was an argument that we'd had (I don't even remember what it was about) and we did did throw in the idea of separation in the heat of battle. Days after, we made up and I asked her if we're good. She said yes, but under her breath she said,"For now..." Thats when I had a weird feeling in my gut.

So she's been undergoing some treatments for a rare disease where the whole ordeal is quite complicated and intensive with out of state travel. Needless to say her treatments can get quite expensive and time/energy consuming. While preparing to leave for treatment, we got into an argument where I lost it and had an anxiety attack. This last treatment in July was by far the most taxing, as she developed a very bad infection that caused her to be bedridden. Her recovery was really tough and I had to work multiple freelance jobs to keep us afloat since she wasn't working. I guess I wasn't the most pleasant as I was really overwhelmed but did my duties and took care of my family while she recovered. We've gotten into a few arguments and the whole ordeal really wore on our relationship. Fast forward into August, my W was healed up fairly well but was acting really distant. No hugs, kisses, etc. The affection just was not there. For my 40th birthday, she did nothing to celebrate it and she is usually so festive and always celebrated my birthday. That night, I told her that I was hurt by the lack of acknowledgment of my 40th birthday and thats when she told me that she no longer loves me. There was an incident about 5 years back when, like a dumbass, texted another female just to see if I "still got it". I didn't so much as touch this other girl. However, I really broke her trust then and she brought that up and said that she just couldn't shake that. She also said that she's been in "blur" for the last 5 years and she can see very clearly now and knows that she doesn't want to be with me anymore. She said we have nothing in common and that I'm not sweet/romantic enough (which is something she complained about in the past). She said we don't view the world the same. I was crushed but kept a cool head and acted like it was mutual (although I was just lying to her and myself just to save face). We had a good conversation and talked about life without each other and we'd make sure that our kids are taken care of. We made passionate love that night and I felt ok with our discussion. The next day however, was rough. What made it even harder was that it was our 10 year anniversary and we did absolutely nothing to celebrate it. I was crushed, and once again she did not acknowledge the date whatsoever, even to this day.

Since then, I've been an absolute wreck. She's constantly on her phone and she just plain doesn't pay any attention to me or care about what i'm doing. There were a few occasions where she went out with her "girlfriends" and would stay out without telling me where she's at or who she's with. One time she didn't come home until 5:30am and was really bitchy when I asked her whereabouts. She said she didn't have to report to me like i'm her Father. Before, that was standard protocol, letting each other know the details of where we're at. I was never controlling or ever prevented her from doing whatever she wanted. That same incident is when she shouted,"I don't even effin' want this...I don't want to be with you.." that one hurt the most. She hasn't been going out every night or anything, but those few times were enough to make me feel really insecure and worried.

Our situation is weird now. I'm definitely in limbo and don't know how to proceed. We still live with each other, and made love a few times since the bomb drop. We still hug hello and goodbye, although kissing on the lips does not happen anymore. We eat dinner as a family and still do some family outings with our son. I just miss her, I miss holding her and kissing her and being affectionate. I just miss being loved by her. These last couple weeks have been really tough for me, because I see her slipping away even further. She can be so cold at times, like I don't even know who she is anymore. She has single friends that I don't know, and got a new tattoo on her neck. Again, she's ALWAYS on her phone and it makes me very insecure, I keep thinking she MUST be communicating with another guy but I don't know for sure. Her work requires her to be out late as she does work for shows at the casino. That makes me very insecure as well. She told me she isn't having relations with someone else, but how do I trust her? There were days that I couldn't sleep and eat and have already lost weight because of it. I've cried to her and did all the classic mistakes but she just doesn't care and has stated that she isn't attracted to me anymore. The other night I mentioned divorce and maybe she needs to move out since she doesn't value our relationship but she said,"No, maybe you should move out! This whole thing has been very hard to deal with. When I did mention divorce, she said,"I'm not even thinking about that right now, Im thinking of my career!" I told her that I'm in limbo and can't live like this. She still hasn't said anything about divorce. I don't know where her mind is at. Is she waiting for the right time to serve me the papers? Is there a chance she might come around? I've had ups and downs where I felt strong only to be in a deep depression the next day.

HOWEVER, not 2 days ago, I might have had an awakening. I've been starting to feel like I might actually be ok with or without her. I'm afraid that it might just be another upswing, but I'm starting to feel a little more calm and relaxed and able to sleep better. I've been hitting the gym again, and started to train martial arts again. I've been pulling back a bit with my interactions with my wife, but haven't seen a difference yet. I just picked up DB and plan to read it whenever I get a chance to be by myself. Thinking of telling her i'm stepping out for a bit but not give her any details of where im going. My PMA has been stronger and i'm trying to GAL although it's hard because I feel bad about leaving my son to go hang out.

What do you guys make of my situation? I miss her dearly but I know that I cannot control the outcome. I've been doing all the outward things like dressing better and hitting the gym etc. I just want to be happy again. Depression is a horrible place to be. Of course I want to re-attract her as she blatantly stated that she's no longer attracted to me. Is that even possible? Re-attraction? I'm not a bad looking dude and have been told that im a catch by my female coworkers. I think that I've exhibited weakness while she was undergoing her treatments which turned her off, and then even more so while crying to come back to me. I think maybe that's when she lost the attraction. Hopefully my new found strength does not waiver and I slide back into the black hole.

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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


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Hi Kbu

Sorry you're here buddy. You've come to the right place though mate. I don't have much time to post anything but just wanted to touch base to support you and let you know I read your sitch and one of the veterans should be here soon to give you some feedback. I too suspect MLC in my sitch. Look to your wife's childhood for abuse, neglect and abandonment.

In the meatime, read Sandi's rules, read Ready to Changes quotes threads, then all the ones Cadet posted above. Come here for advice before responding to your wife or making big decisions. The people here are fantastic to help that way.

Chin up, and stay strong mate.

PS what MA do you practice?


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Originally Posted by kbuenob
What do you guys make of my situation?


Very sorry you find yourself in this situation! What I make of it, well it sounds pretty typical. Long marriage, fights here and there, nothing major wrong but passion missing for quite some time, spouse finally checks out and is done. It took a long time for her to get to that point and first you need to understand there is no magic quick fix that will put everything back to "normal" again. You've got a long road ahead and a lot of work to do, mainly on yourself. Start by reading DR and all of the threads Cadet posted. Go through other sitches on here and read the advice they were given. Focus heavily on getting out, GAL'ing and leaving your W alone. Read Sandi's rules and use those as your template on how to behave. The idea isn't to restore your old marriage, it's to set up a scenario to possibly build a new one with her down the road. But you've got to be very patient.

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I've been doing all the outward things like dressing better and hitting the gym etc.


Good! Keep it up.

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I just want to be happy again. Depression is a horrible place to be.


And you will be, but it takes time to recover!

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Of course I want to re-attract her as she blatantly stated that she's no longer attracted to me. Is that even possible? Re-attraction?


Yes. A lot of guys here have done it. Off the top of my head Steve's sitch is a good one to read, so is TXHubby's. Both were dealing with wayward wives having affairs and they attracted them back by leaving them to their mess while they focused on themselves.

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I'm not a bad looking dude and have been told that im a catch by my female coworkers.


Take a holistic approach to attractiveness. It's not just appearance, it's value. Your W sees you as very low value right now, her perception of you needs to change.

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I think that I've exhibited weakness while she was undergoing her treatments which turned her off, and then even more so while crying to come back to me.


Yes exactly! Those would be 180's to work on.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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Cadet, Thank you for welcoming me here. It brings me some comfort knowing there are people that I don't know that are willing to help me out. I am very grateful.

DS9 #2869820 10/29/19 01:19 PM
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DS9, Thank you. Yes I have problems knowing what to say or do, in fear of pushing her away even further. So I will definitely come here for advice. BTW, I'm a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guy! All my brothers and professor at my gym have been very supportive. I'm grateful for them as well.

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AnotherStander, Thank you for your words of encouragement, especially about being able to re-attract my W. Can you please explain your thoughts on how to work on being someone of higher value? Thank you so much!

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kb, a couple of things jump out at me.

First, your last two paragraphs were good! Focus on you right now. Do not feel bad for stepping out to GAL, but make sure you are still prioritizing your son as well. GAL with kids means to spend as much time with them as possible, but when you aren't that you are busy. Detachment is starting to catch on with you because you are starting to realize that you are going to be okay no matter what! That is important.

One red flag in the last paragraph. Who cares what other females say? This tells me you are looking for validation externally. Know your own worth, no matter what anyone else says and does. Including your WAW, and any other female.

You suspect she might be messaging someone else. And she has been going out and staying out late and getting angry about you questioning that. Assume she is having an affair, but not because that changes what you should be saying and doing DB-wise, but because of your physical health! Stop sleeping with her, you are putting yourself at risk, at least until you are sure there is no one else.

Finally, one 2x4. And you might already know this, but stop being selfish. That is a huge 180 you need to make. I recognize it because I was just like you! Think about it, your W is bedridden recovering from an extremely taxing treatment, and you are feeling sorry for yourself? Even all of your "missing her" statements were about what YOU get out of the relationship. And you haven't even stopped to consider her happiness, that what she is doing right now above all is trying to be happy. All you can think about is how it affects you. And the 10 year anniversary? Why was that up to her? If you wanted to celebrate, despite your discussions on separation, etc, then why didn't you take the lead on that? So recognize the selfish behavior and start working on it. Get into IC. If nothing else, see this as an opportunity to become a better you, for your next relationship (whether with her or someone else).

Hang in there and keep posting!!


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Wow kb!
I feel like I’m in the exact same position as you. I just submitted my first post looking for the same help and guidance as you.

I’ve been married to my college sweetheart for 12 years and we’ve been together for about 17 years. I’ve been seeing the signs for a while now and one of them was my 40th birthday in April where I barely even saw her the whole day. My BD was on 10/08 and our 12Y anniversary was 5 days later. I bought her roses and wrote a long letter but we did nothing else that day. Both those days felt very dark and lonely. She hasn’t said the words but I know she’s not in love with me and is not attracted to me.
I’ve moved to the basement and we are living like everything is ok for the kids, but I have a hard time determining if she’s actually enjoying time with me or if it’s all an act for the kids. We haven’t had any physical contact in two weeks. It’s confusing as hell and hard to stay positive but we need to realize that’s all we can do right now.
Working on ourselves is the only way forward. I’ve been working out, eating better, have had one appt with an IC and have scheduled another 5, and trying to GAL.

Try small, repeatable, positive things that you can do to change your daily routine. Last night, I went to a bar by myself to watch the Steelers game. I never do that. It definitely peaked her curiosity to see me go out by myself, especially on a week night. It felt great! Small steps for now.


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Steve85, wow thank you so much for that. I truly was being selfish. She was in pain and all i could do was feel sorry for myself like,"I'm so tired having to work more hours while she's recovering." or "Look at me i'm hurting too..." That was really weak and now that I see my error, I can understand why my behavior caused the loss of love.There were probably many times in the past when I acted like that which compounded over time. I needed to be her rock and I was selfish instead. Again, thank you for pointing that out.

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JR425, I'm sorry that we find ourselves in the same situation. They really do sound very similar. I'm going to start saying yes more often to my friends regarding going out. When I look back I've always maintained a relationship with my friends. I made time for them. I need to bring that back, which will help me take the wife out of my focus. thank you for reaching out brother. Let's help each other out where we can.

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Saying “yes” to friends is the best place I’ve found to start GAL. I got an invite to hang with a couple buddies on Friday and a month ago I would have considered it and eventually declined but this time I jumped at the opportunity. Also, try to plan out a trip or weekend getaway so you can something to look forward to. I’m taking my son out for his first hunting trip this weekend and have 3 more long weekend hunting trips planned for the next couple months with a few college buddies. The group texts all day as we make plans and review trail cams keeps my mind off things and gives me something to be excited about.
Reach out any time. If there’s one thing I’m absolutely sure of, it’s that I will definitely need some help working through this as I’m sure you will too. At least we’ve found ourselves here where we can get some outside perspective and support from others that can fully relate.
Keep your head up and eyes forward!


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Sounds fun man! I like getting outside with my son, we like rock climbing and hiking but have put that on hold. We need to start that back up! I'm going out with some coworkers this Friday so that should be a good time. I'll be here for you brother, hopefully I can offer up some help.

Question...have you been wearing your wedding ring? My wife no longer wears hers and I've taken mine off the last couple days but it feels wrong. I don't know if I should or shouldn't be wearing it; it may cause her to feel pressure as she's told me before whenever I bring up our relationship. That's the last thing I want her to feel.

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My opinion? You're married, you should wear your ring.


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Thanks again Steve! Will do.

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Hey Kbueno,

How are you today mate?

You're in excellent hands with AS and Steve on board. They are both legends on this forum.

On top of the suggested sitch's to read, I'd definitely read Robx as well.

I took my ring off a few weeks after BD. I was told repeatedly there was no way we'd never, ever, ever get back together, and I told my XW I accepted that was her decision. To keep it on after that to me would have been disingenous and pursuing.

Cheers DS


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I 2nd the wearing of the ring. I took mine off and left it on the counter when she asked me to leave for a few days. I put it back on when I came home and have been wearing it ever since. It felt worse for me not wearing it. Do what makes you feel better.
I completely understand putting pressure on her about the R. When I had my “awakening” all I wanted to do was discuss “us” and how we can fix the M. It was too much for her so I backed off. I started dismissing the day to day talks because it wasn’t addressing the issue or giving me answers. That was a mistake. I’m now really enjoying any time and any thing she wants to talk about. If it leads to a M discussion, great. If not, so what? I’m letting her guide the discussions and I’m just being present in them and fully attentive to what she says so as not to put any pressure on her.


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DS9, doing ok actually! Just got back from training at the jiujitsu academy and feels good hangin with the fellas. My wife hasn't gotten to that point where she would say things like that. I think i'm going to keep the ring on as I am still a married man and I value that. I didn't wear it for a couple of days and it just didn't feel right. Although I must admit that many times during our marriage I would forget to put my ring on and my wife would have to remind me, or she would bring it to me to wear.

Looking back I feel horrible about that. So many little things that I failed at as a husband and now I am paying for it.

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Originally Posted by kbuenob

Looking back I feel horrible about that. So many little things that I failed at as a husband and now I am paying for it.


When I started DBing one of the things I learned fast was that the past is set in stone. The future is unknown. All we have is right now. So be the best husband, father, person you can be right now! And resolve to continue to do better in the future.

Dwelling on regret and past mistakes does nothing for that. Acknowledge past failures, and resolve to do better from this point forward.

I highly doubt you were as bad of as a husband as I was. I am ashamed of what I had become.


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Yes I will continue to wear my R. I feel like it's a reflection of who I am as a man- one who values his family, wife, and marriage.

So you and your W are able to have discussions about the M? A week ago before I finally understood the concept of letting go and detachment, I made a mistake and was asking her about our R and M. After about 2 minutes she said this discussion was giving her a stomach ache, making her nauseous, and that she was no longer attracted to me. That was tough to hear, and ever since then my heart hardened a little. Detachment has been a lot easier for me after that. I'm wondering if that sparked my "awakening"?

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Steve85, I have had thoughts of me not deserving my wife. She is a wonderful woman and always put me and the kids first. She called me self-centered in one of our arguments and I agree with her now. But you're 100% right man. I can't beat myself up over the past mistakes that I have made- that does nothing and is not productive unless I learn from them and apply what I have learned. Thank you

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kb, many of us have discussed keystone moments in our sitch. Usually it is related to the WAS/WS waking up from their fog, or starting to. But we LBSs have keystone moments too. That may have been it for you. However, you already knew it before she said it, didn't you? I mean that is why you started to discuss the M and R with her because you could tell she was pulling away and no longer "into" you. Another mistake that LBSs make is hanging onto every word that comes out of WAS/WS's mouth. It is a fool's game. BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS. Either positive or negative. Likely she doesn't even know her own truth right now, there is no way you could.


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Hi kbuenob,

what a strange name! I'm sure it means something to you. My name is "Overtherainbow" but was abbreviated when I signed up. I believe that saving my marriage was possible only somewhere over the rainbow. I was sad and weak and and am still recovering from that and figuring just who and what I am. It's a long haul, and there's many obstacles ahead. Continue to focus on your journey. Detach so that you don't get wound up over everything she says, or hang on her every word. Detached men and women are attractive, thoughtful, and you can't pull their strings.

Many here have been in a similar situation, so do what you can to learn from their situations and how to best apply it to yours. Learn to validate other people's feelings before injecting your own thoughts. For example, your EA (emotional affair) is a great opportunity to validate her feelings. I had an EA of sorts when my W and I were dating. My W had an affair. We have both hurt each other in similar ways and the pain and confusion takes years to get through. Try to understand her on this. Keep your pain to yourself for now.

I see you wrote how passionate y'all used to be, that's great! A major positive IMO. So with the way she is acting now with staying out late, acting single, telling you she doesn't want you, and major attachment to the phone, I think you need to re-assess your plan of action. MWD has a saying "Do what works. If you don't know what works, don't do what doesn't work". I'd list out the things here that haven't worked and add those to your list of things not to do at this time (for example, asking about her whereabouts, asking her about divorce). Keep working on the PMA, do the GAL when you can but no peacocking! Let her see authentic changes and don't flaunt it. Pull your shoulders back, head up, and be the best you at all times.

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I told her that I'm in limbo and can't live like this.

Apparently this is not true as you have not taken any action on this. So choose your words wisely and be concise.

Also, Steve is a great poster to have in your thread, but I think that if she is questioning the relationship, considering herself a single woman, and not wearing her ring that you should quietly take yours off and GAL. Show her that you hear her, that you aren't plan B. If you think it adds pressure, that is yet another reason not to continue wearing it.


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Steve, I most certainly did know. I guess I just needed to hear it from her mouth (which was me being needy lol). So, is there ever a point where you DO start believing what she says? Consistent positive or negative conversations/actions over time? Apologies if this has already been discussed throughout the forum

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Originally Posted by kbuenob
Steve, I most certainly did know. I guess I just needed to hear it from her mouth (which was me being needy lol). So, is there ever a point where you DO start believing what she says? Consistent positive or negative conversations/actions over time? Apologies if this has already been discussed throughout the forum


No need to apologize. It has been discussed and guess what....you nailed it! Consistent behavior over a long period of time is how you will know you can trust her again.

We have a saying around here: When she wants to R you will know....we she doesn't you will be confused.


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Work on being more attractive. Remember that woman are more attracted to the behavior of a man and not so much how he looks. Change your behaviors to be more attractive.

Read this thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=47467&Number=2057224#Post2057224


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Hi ovr, Thank you for commenting. haha yes it does mean something! Perhaps it's a little too close to my actual name but I don't think I can change it now lol.

On the topic of detachment, over the past 3 days I've been able to detach and feel empowered by it. I'm much more relaxed and confident. Just a week before the keystone moment that I had (where I was REALLY able to detach), I couldn't eat or sleep. A deep depression set in, I lost 5 pounds, was running on fumes and I was really scared that I was spiraling into a hole that I couldn't get out of. Then the awakening happened. I'm able to take my W out of my focus. I don't think about what she's doing every moment. Been doing my own thing while at home after we put our son to sleep. I haven't been following my W around like a puppy waiting for affection. I don't expect anything from her, no hugs or kisses and I don't give them either. I've been A LOT more cheerful, cracking jokes and laughing like my old self. During the day, I don't text or call her. If we do text, it's mostly about our son and I just give clear, concise replies.

And then...

This morning before my wife left for work I was in the kitchen getting ready to leave as well. I was grabbing a dish and I felt her waiting behind me. Then she asked,"Hey, do you mind giving me a hug?" I said, "Yeah, come here, I'll give you a hug." Then we embraced for a good while and said our pleasantries as she left. I KNOW that doesn't sound like much, but after weeks of her not wanting to touch me, that was definitely a milestone for me.

I'm not getting my hopes up or anything, but I am seeing the power of my new found strength and confidence. I'm just going to keep doing what im doing. Focus on me and my son instead of my W.

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Thats great Steve thanks again!

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Hi Ready2Change, thank you for sharing that!

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Originally Posted by kbuenob
This morning before my wife left for work I was in the kitchen getting ready to leave as well. I was grabbing a dish and I felt her waiting behind me. Then she asked,"Hey, do you mind giving me a hug?" I said, "Yeah, come here, I'll give you a hug." Then we embraced for a good while and said our pleasantries as she left. I KNOW that doesn't sound like much, but after weeks of her not wanting to touch me, that was definitely a milestone for me.

I'm not getting my hopes up or anything, but I am seeing the power of my new found strength and confidence. I'm just going to keep doing what im doing. Focus on me and my son instead of my W.


Wow, that's inspirational!!!

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Augusto, just by you saying that increases my confidence even more! I'm happy that inspired you!!

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Originally Posted by kbuenob
Steve85, I have had thoughts of me not deserving my wife. She is a wonderful woman and always put me and the kids first. She called me self-centered in one of our arguments and I agree with her now. But you're 100% right man. I can't beat myself up over the past mistakes that I have made- that does nothing and is not productive unless I learn from them and apply what I have learned. Thank you


Well like Steve said, take what she says with a grain of salt right now. It is healthy in a marriage to have some degree of detachment and to do things for yourself and allow your spouse to do the same. That is all fine and dandy until your W decides she doesn't want to be married anymore, and then suddenly you were "self-centered" and a thousand other normal things you did are now wrong. Example- I used to volunteer for Habitat for Humanity on Saturday mornings. My XW liked to sleep in and so did the kids, but by 8:00 I was building houses for the needy. We usually knocked off around 1 and often I would get home just as everyone else was waking up for the day. So after BD what do you think my XW said about that, that I was "selfish and just did what I wanted to do like that Habitat thing". In my foggy post-BD state I actually believed that and some of the other crap she said. Later I remembered we had actually had a conversation about it and I told her I felt God had blessed me and volunteering was my way of paying it forward. Not exactly the sort of thing a selfish person would say. And she had told me back then that she thought that was really good of me, and she even baked cookies and brought them out to the whole group once. WAS's have a way of making us second-guess everything about ourselves, even the good, healthy things. Now I'm not saying to ignore all her comments, we all could have done better and you should do 180's on any bad behaviors you had. But don't believe EVERYTHING she says.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
My name is "Overtherainbow" but was abbreviated when I signed up. I believe that saving my marriage was possible only somewhere over the rainbow.


Oh really, I don't think I knew that! Not sure what KB's means but being in Texas where a lot of Spanish is spoken I see k-bueno-b (bueno = good) smile


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Originally Posted by kbuenob


On the topic of detachment, over the past 3 days I've been able to detach and feel empowered by it. I'm much more relaxed and confident. Just a week before the keystone moment that I had (where I was REALLY able to detach), I couldn't eat or sleep. A deep depression set in, I lost 5 pounds, was running on fumes and I was really scared that I was spiraling into a hole that I couldn't get out of. Then the awakening happened. I'm able to take my W out of my focus. I don't think about what she's doing every moment. Been doing my own thing while at home after we put our son to sleep. I haven't been following my W around like a puppy waiting for affection. I don't expect anything from her, no hugs or kisses and I don't give them either. I've been A LOT more cheerful, cracking jokes and laughing like my old self. During the day, I don't text or call her. If we do text, it's mostly about our son and I just give clear, concise replies.

And then...

This morning before my wife left for work I was in the kitchen getting ready to leave as well. I was grabbing a dish and I felt her waiting behind me. Then she asked,"Hey, do you mind giving me a hug?" I said, "Yeah, come here, I'll give you a hug." Then we embraced for a good while and said our pleasantries as she left. I KNOW that doesn't sound like much, but after weeks of her not wanting to touch me, that was definitely a milestone for me.

I'm not getting my hopes up or anything, but I am seeing the power of my new found strength and confidence. I'm just going to keep doing what im doing. Focus on me and my son instead of my W.


It’s really unbelievable how similar our sitch’s are as well as the timing of them. I went a little over a week sleeping about 3-4 hours a night and eating every 24-30 hours before my awakening.
Hearing your W wanted a hug is amazing! It gives me hope. No physical contact for 2 weeks is tough to deal with. It sounds like you’re on the right path!


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Originally Posted by kbuenob
This morning before my wife left for work I was in the kitchen getting ready to leave as well. I was grabbing a dish and I felt her waiting behind me. Then she asked,"Hey, do you mind giving me a hug?" I said, "Yeah, come here, I'll give you a hug." Then we embraced for a good while and said our pleasantries as she left. I KNOW that doesn't sound like much, but after weeks of her not wanting to touch me, that was definitely a milestone for me.
Perfect.


Steve85 talks about touch charges. You might want to test the waters. Maybe one tonight. If it goes well, maybe two tomorrow. It is briefly touching in none sexual ways while doing something else.

Example:

Wife is in kitchen cooking. I walk up next to her, touch her on the shoulder, and reach into the cabinet to get a glass. then I break contact with her and fill the glass with water and take a drink.


I do this with my lady all the time. 20 times a night. I do escalate to more sexual in nature. We are in a good place though. Mine include kisses, shoulder rubs etc.


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R2C, has a good idea here. But be careful with it. It needs to be subtle. And you need to make sure to observe her reaction. If you touch her shoulder and she recoils in disgust....then tablet the touch charges for now. If she receives it well, then maybe as you walk by her as she is sitting on the couch tomorrow, reach down and caress her shoulder for a second or two as you go by.

I used touch charges to great effect in my sitch. The key is subtle...and non-sexual (do not pat or grab her butt).


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Quote
Example- I used to volunteer for Habitat for Humanity on Saturday mornings.


Funny you mentioned Habitat for Humanity. I was looking for ways to GAL and have some experience with construction work. I'm going to look into volunteering for HFH to keep busy!

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R2C and Steve85 Oh, good one. I'm going to try and see her reaction. Sometimes, say she's passing me the TV remote, I'll try to sneak a touch on her hand...does that count or should it be a tad bit more obvious than that? Like the hand on shoulder example you guys gave?

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Originally Posted by kbuenob
R2C and Steve85 Oh, good one. I'm going to try and see her reaction. Sometimes, say she's passing me the TV remote, I'll try to sneak a touch on her hand...does that count or should it be a tad bit more obvious than that? Like the hand on shoulder example you guys gave?
Intentional, natural and obvious.


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Read you loud and clear!

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Yes, I just have to keep doing what i'm doing, observe any changes and adjust fire when needed. It did feel good to hug her. Funny how we take little things like hugs for granted.

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Believe me I get it. I took a big step forward for me last night but it resulted in a big step backward for my R so just a hug would go a long way for me now. Appreciate and hold on to that hug. Use it as a means to keep yourself positive in those potential spiraling moments that usually lead to seeds of doubt.


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Originally Posted by kbuenob
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Example- I used to volunteer for Habitat for Humanity on Saturday mornings.


Funny you mentioned Habitat for Humanity. I was looking for ways to GAL and have some experience with construction work. I'm going to look into volunteering for HFH to keep busy!


I definitely recommend it, they have something for anyone to do regardless of skill level but if you have construction background then so much the better. There is a misconception that we build "free" houses for undeserving people, but in fact the people buy the houses, they don't get them for nothing. They have to go through a lengthy prequalification process. They have to be employed, but make under a certain income level. They aren't deadbeats, they are people who are genuinely trying to make a life for themselves but struggle with low income jobs and kids to feed. In addition, they have to work on the house themselves, HFH calls it "sweat equity". They have to put in a minimum number of volunteer hours on their house and others in order to qualify to complete the transaction.

You'll make a lot of new friends too. It's a fantastic GAL opportunity.


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So I was thinking about the last conversation me and the W had about our R where I messed up and said,"Well I can't keep living in limbo so we should just get a D!"

My W replied with,"I'm not even thinking about that right now! I'm working on my career!!" Which is true, she's in the beauty industry and landed a gig with very high profile celebrity.

What should I make of that statement? Should I put any stock into what she said that she's not thinking about divorce? Is that a good thing despite her losing attraction and saying she doesn't want to be in this relationship a few weeks back? Or is it that she's figuring in order to further her career she needs stability at home? And then get the D afterwards? Am I reading too much into what she said?

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We often say that if you can remove all pressure, that often the D will go on hold indefinitely. WAS's usually only push for D when they feel pressured. So she's probably being honest that it's not on her radar. As for what to read into it, it doesn't mean she's having second thoughts about the M yet. You may be right that it's just cake-eating- she wants some stability while pursuing her career. All it means is you have the gift of time, use it wisely!


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Oh yeah, So as my wife came home from buying groceries last night, she opened her arms for another hug! It was right after she hugged my son, so maybe it was just a,"Oh yeah you get a hug too." kind of thing, but it was definitely nice.

I tried the touch charge too. As she was washing dishes I asked her if she could wash my plate and then touched the small of her back while I put my dish in the sink. There wasn't really a noticeable reaction, but at least she didn't recoil in disgust.

Another thing...while I was sleeping, I noticed my wife hop into bed. I felt her push the top of her hands to my arm and she left them there for a while. Not sure what to make of that. I was ever so slightly trying to move towards her so maybe she would grab me or something but it never came. Once I realized what I was doing (felt like i was pursuing while I was half asleep lol) I quickly turned around and moved further away.

Noticing all these micro-interactions is weird man!!

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Your right. I'll use the time to work on the best version of myself!

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Originally Posted by kbuenob
I tried the touch charge too. As she was washing dishes I asked her if she could wash my plate and then touched the small of her back while I put my dish in the sink. There wasn't really a noticeable reaction, but at least she didn't recoil in disgust.
That sounds promising. Don't read too much into it, but try two/three times tonight.


Do some research on safe places to touch her. The shoulder should be your main target right now.


Do you know her main love language?


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When I started touch charges my W had no reaction. Overtime, a strange thing happen. She started to reciprocate. She'd walk by and put her hand on my thigh, or shoulder. Just keep doing them. Touch is a powerful powerful thing. As long as she is not recoiling, it is having a positive effect.

Just continue to keep it subtle, casual, and non-sexual.


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R2C & Steve

Ok, I'll keep doing the touch charges.

A while ago we listened to the book on road trip together and pretty much determined that her love languages are between Acts of Service and Gifts. Over the course of our marriage, she complained that i'm not "sweet" enough a lot. Hardly any surprises, buying gifts for her was few and far between. I guess my family didn't show our love that way, but hers did (both of us are from strong, loving families). Her dad was and is very loving and buys her gifts still to this day. Sometimes I feel like she compares me to her dad and my lack of "sweetness". Again, mistakes that I've beat myself up over (but am trying not to now).

With that said, I'm confused about doing things and buying her things to make up for it. Since I know that that's one thing she was longing for from me. She even said that thats one of the main reasons why she's not attracted to me anymore. If knowing that that's what she wanted from me, is pulling away and not doing anything for her now counterproductive?

Despite our 2 hugs yesterday, I refrained from showing her affection today. Was that a mistake or should I have gone in for an embrace before leaving for work? I'm always thinking,"Pull away man, just pull away!"

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Right now, treat her like a cat. Let her come to you.


Right now, I would refrain from gifts.

Simple acts of service should be OK, but do not over do it.


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Simple acts of service should be OK, but do not over do it.
Example:Taking the trash out BEFORE she asks.


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R2C, ok will do. I will continue to be patient and wait for her to come to me.

Man, it's tough because i'm so very attracted to my wife. Of course more so now because she doesn't want me lol. I look at her now and all I want to do is jump her bones. Funny how that works. I remember she would throw herself at me and I would be too tired. She had a certain laugh when she was in the mood. I would give anything to hear that laugh again...

As far as acts of service, I would say that I've been pretty good at helping around the house and domestic duties. I'll just keep it up..no more, no less...

are there other acts of service examples besides domestic duties?

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Originally Posted by kbuenob
are there other acts of service examples besides domestic duties?


This always stands out:


Woman: "Will you buy me drink?"
Alpha response "Absolutely....After you buy me one"


How can you apply this alpha thought process to your life?


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Originally Posted by kbuenob
As far as acts of service, I would say that I've been pretty good at helping around the house and domestic duties. I'll just keep it up..no more, no less...

are there other acts of service examples besides domestic duties?


Have you read 5LL? That's where the term comes from and there's a lot of great info in there about how to appeal to someone through their PLL. That said, be careful, because 5LL is written for people who have a good relationship that just needs some improvement, not for a LBS dealing with a WAS. A lot of the techniques in 5LL will just put pressure on the WAS. Helping around the house and domestic duties are absolutely not going to appeal to her right now. A lot of LBS's become very beta after marriage and kids, and when their wife goes rogue they double-down on the beta activities thinking that will help. The problem is she's no longer attracted to you, and being the perfect housekeeper is not going to bring her attraction back. Alpha qualities are what women find attractive. Beta stuff is fine in combination with alpha, but not at the exclusion of alpha. If you don't understand the difference between alpha and beta, read The Married Man Sex Life Primer. It is an unvarnished look, lol!


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I've read it when our relationship was good and didn't take much heed to it unfortunately. I agree that the 5LL techniques are for marriages that are in a good place. Wish I took it seriously.

Ok I will check out The Married Man Sex Life Primer!

There were some moments that I think contributed to my wife not being attracted to me. I've exhibited weakness and was going through my own depression and would have anxiety attacks. Crying and pleading for my wife to understand my perspective on things. Concerns about money always brought me to a low place and she saw it. Being selfish when my wife needed me most (Steve pointed this out to me). Would those be examples of beta behavior as well?

As far as Alpha behavior- any examples before I get the book? I'm thinking things like: keeping a calm and relaxed attitude, maintaining my confidence, being decisive, etc

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R2C, i'm having some trouble understanding this fully. Please elaborate when you have time. thank you

Quote
This always stands out:


Woman: "Will you buy me drink?"
Alpha response "Absolutely....After you buy me one"


How can you apply this alpha thought process to your life?

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The example above is a woman testing a man. Most guys fail the test.

As long as you both are putting EQUAL amounts of effort into things, it is good.


Example:

W:"My car is dirty"
H:"I will go wash it if you make grilled cheese and soup for dinner..."

The communication might be different depending on the state of the relationship.




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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
The example above is a woman testing a man. Most guys fail the test.

As long as you both are putting EQUAL amounts of effort into things, it is good.


Example:

W:"My car is dirty"
H:"I will go wash it if you make grilled cheese and soup for dinner..."

The communication might be different depending on the state of the relationship.




Understood! thank you R2C!

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So my wife has a late night gig tonight- she's in the beauty industry and recently got a gig to do makeup for a big show here in town. This is a great experience for her and will be great for her resume. She started about 2 weeks ago and works about 3 nights a week. To say i'm a little nervous about it is an understatement. Don't get me wrong, i'm really happy for her, but considering the state of our relationship I am most definitely insecure about the whole thing. Tonight being halloween, there is an after party for the crew and of course my mind is playing all types of crazy movies.

Anyway, she missed Halloween with our son tonight because of it. I took the little guy trick or treating with cousins and it was a nice time. I watched all the other families together and it made me realize how much I cherish my FAMILY. It is what I want, and want to give my heart and my focus to. It made me wonder about my W. If this family isn't what she wants, then whats the sense of trying to DB? If her heart isn't into making this work, then why am I wasting time being patient, pulling away to get her back, detaching, 180's etc. I mean yes, I know the whole thing is to become a better person with or without her, but I can't lie. I want to be happy again. Is it selfish of me to think about throwing in the towel now in hopes of finding love with someone else? sorry guys, it's just one of those nights...

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Also need some advice regarding our 10S if any one can help...

I think he is starting to feel the "less than loving" energy within our home. All his life he was used to seeing mommy and daddy hugging and kissing each other. Hearing us flirt, and being in love. We would put him in the middle of us and call him our sandwich. Love was abundant and everlasting to him.

For the past 4 months he hasn't been experiencing that love between his mommy and daddy and I think he's starting to feel it. He seems more irritable and disrespectful. Just the other day, I picked him up from school and he immediately started to sob and he couldn't tell me why. He loves martial arts like me, but hasn't been wanting to train lately. One day when I was feeling really depressed, I cried uncontrollably and he seen me which made him cry as well. I felt horrible for that.

Again, my W has been working late nights recently, and also had those few times where she went out and came home very late from partying (4-5:30am). One time when i asked him what's wrong, he said he missed his mama.

The other night before my W went to work, my son said,"Do you like working, or me better mama?" for which she did not reply. i felt like I had to correct him and I said,"Hey man that's mamas work, and it's important." It bothered me that she didn't say anything and also bothered me that I defended her.

So how do i address the situation with him? Do I tell my wife that she needs to talk to him about her work, so he understands better what is going on and why she's working at night? Do I tell my wife that our son has been having issues with her not being at home as much as before? I'm afraid she's will think that i'm the one that planted that seed in his head, when it was just him observing the truth.

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jb, these things are tough on kids. And yes they can detect things going on. My daughter was 14, my W and I never said anything in front of her. But she could tell something was changing. She also had a lot of resentment towards me because for years I had isolated myself from her and my W, and now I was being present.

Hang in there. Just be the best husband and father you can be through this.

Bro hugs to you man!


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Originally Posted by kbuenob
I've exhibited weakness and was going through my own depression and would have anxiety attacks. Crying and pleading for my wife to understand my perspective on things. Concerns about money always brought me to a low place and she saw it. Being selfish when my wife needed me most (Steve pointed this out to me). Would those be examples of beta behavior as well?


Yes, absolutely! All are excellent examples.

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As far as Alpha behavior- any examples before I get the book? I'm thinking things like: keeping a calm and relaxed attitude, maintaining my confidence, being decisive, etc


One example from the book is when it comes to eating out, most couples get in this discussion: "Where do you want to eat?" "I don't know, what do you want?" "I'm not sure, what are you thinking?" VERY beta behavior. I used to do this with my W. Not anymore, now when I go out with my GF I say "let's go grab a bite, I'm in the mood for BBQ, was thinking Soulman's." That is alpha. Now alpha is not forcing what I want on her, it is just being decisive. My GF might say "I just had BBQ for lunch" and I will say "OK, let's hit Torchy's instead." So I'm still listening to her and adjusting if needed, but I'm not being wishy-washy. I think the book compares it to being a pilot and copilot. The pilot is steering and directing, but also respects the opinion and input of the copilot.

Another real-life example- my GF wanted to go shopping at Victoria's Secret. She had three bras pulled and couldn't decide, asked me what I thought. I told her I liked the bows and lace on one of them, and didn't like the color on another because it didn't go well with her skin tone. She continued asking my opinion on other stuff and I gave it. "No, I don't like that the panties don't match the bra on that one." "Oh yes, that would look very sexy on you, the color matches your eyes!" She was BLOWN AWAY. She told me later she had never met a man confident enough to even walk into VS with her, much less actually express his opinion and not just say "whatever you want dear." She said she thought it was incredibly sexy.

A lot of people think being an "alpha" in the relationship means being a pushy, opinionated, selfish jerk. It's not, it's more about being decisive, confident, sexy, and a little bit of a bad boy sometimes. Getting BD'd brings out the most beta behavior possible in most LBS's. A lot of what we discuss here, like saying "I don't want you to leave, I want you to stay and work on the M. But if leaving is what you want, I won't stand in your way" is alpha behavior. You're not trying to control her, you are letting her make her own decisions. You are stating what you want, but allowing her to choose.

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If this family isn't what she wants, then whats the sense of trying to DB?


Well right now you don't know what she wants because she doesn't know. She may seem sure of herself but she's not. There's a lot of internal struggle going on. So you give her time and space while she sorts it out.

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For the past 4 months he hasn't been experiencing that love between his mommy and daddy and I think he's starting to feel it. He seems more irritable and disrespectful. Just the other day, I picked him up from school and he immediately started to sob and he couldn't tell me why. He loves martial arts like me, but hasn't been wanting to train lately. One day when I was feeling really depressed, I cried uncontrollably and he seen me which made him cry as well. I felt horrible for that.


Get him in IC, he needs someone to help him learn to navigate this. And it needs to be a neutral 3rd party rather than you or your W. Talk to the school counselor about what is going on and see if he/she can talk to him and keep an eye on him for problems.

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Do I tell my wife that our son has been having issues with her not being at home as much as before?


No, just tell her he seems to be struggling and that you think he needs to be in IC, and that you want to talk to the school counselor and ask if she wants to be part of that conversation. It is VERY important not to blame your W. Not to her, not to your son, not to the counselors. This is a difficult time for your S and he needs help, it's not the time to throw anyone under the bus.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

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AS, as usual, nailed it. kb, listen to AS, he knows what he is talking about.


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To add to what AS said regarding Alpha behavior:

Your typical "Bad boy" beats out the "Nice Guy" almost every time. He has many positive Alpha traits that the nice guy lacks. Many woman will put up with the negative trait because they are attracted to the positive traits.

If "nice guys" can drop their negative traits and incorporate the positive traits of the "Bad boy", then they become a very desirable Alpha.


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Thank you for sharing that Steve

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A lot of people think being an "alpha" in the relationship means being a pushy, opinionated, selfish jerk. It's not, it's more about being decisive, confident, sexy, and a little bit of a bad boy sometimes.


This is gold! Thanks AS

I'm definitely enjoying the book, it's making me look back at how I used to be. I definitely had more Alpha qualities in me. It's motivating actually. I can see myself getting back to that and am motivated!!

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Awesome R2C...working on it!!

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No, just tell her he seems to be struggling and that you think he needs to be in IC, and that you want to talk to the school counselor and ask if she wants to be part of that conversation. It is VERY important not to blame your W. Not to her, not to your son, not to the counselors. This is a difficult time for your S and he needs help, it's not the time to throw anyone under the bus.


Agreed

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Alright so my wife came home this morning at 5:00am after the show she did makeup for had a big halloween party. Through out the party she was texting me letting me know she's still at the party, she's having a good time etc. I was asleep so didn't get the texts until I woke up. She texted when she was on her way home, and that she stopped off for some fast food and she'll be home shortly etc. Basically giving me a quick play by play. I appreciated that she was concerned enough about my feelings that she did that. When she did come home, she was in a good mood and told me how much fun she had. I told her that I was happy she had a good time. Part of me genuinely feels like she's just trying to be happy, and im glad she is feeling this way. On the other hand 5am is pretty damn late to be coming home when you have a child and husband a home. Just to give you some context, she just started doing makeup for the Lady Gaga show here in town. with Lady Gaga being such a huge celebrity, I believe it when my wife says they were having a blast.

But was she giving me too much information in attempt to cover her tracks? I don't know. Did she really want to keep me in the loop, or was she hiding something? I don't know what to think.

Like Steve advised, I should probably assume she's having an affair. But is there ever a time that I really try to investigate and find out the truth? Am I doomed to just wonder about it? Do I not have a right to know if she is or isn't?

What do you guys think?

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Originally Posted by kbuenob
What do you guys think?
Read through every post in all 8 of my quote threads (before doing anything).




"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Ok will do, thank you R2C

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R2C, I've read through the posts.

This one stuck out to me
Quote
It very well could be she has one, either as an EA and/or a PA. I would do some recon to try and find out because if she is in an active PA that jeopardizes your health! You need to know.


Am i missing the point? This is really starting to kill me. I thought I was getting stronger but every time I see her smiling while texting on her phone, or think about all the times she's been out until late it makes me want to find out if she's having an affair.

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Does anybody have any thought on this? Is she concerned about my feelings or trying to cover her tracks?

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Alright so my wife came home this morning at 5:00am after the show she did makeup for had a big halloween party. Through out the party she was texting me letting me know she's still at the party, she's having a good time etc. I was asleep so didn't get the texts until I woke up. She texted when she was on her way home, and that she stopped off for some fast food and she'll be home shortly etc. Basically giving me a quick play by play. I appreciated that she was concerned enough about my feelings that she did that. When she did come home, she was in a good mood and told me how much fun she had. I told her that I was happy she had a good time. Part of me genuinely feels like she's just trying to be happy, and im glad she is feeling this way. On the other hand 5am is pretty damn late to be coming home when you have a child and husband a home. Just to give you some context, she just started doing makeup for the Lady Gaga show here in town. with Lady Gaga being such a huge celebrity, I believe it when my wife says they were having a blast.

But was she giving me too much information in attempt to cover her tracks? I don't know. Did she really want to keep me in the loop, or was she hiding something? I don't know what to think.

Like Steve advised, I should probably assume she's having an affair. But is there ever a time that I really try to investigate and find out the truth? Am I doomed to just wonder about it? Do I not have a right to know if she is or isn't?

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Originally Posted by kbuenob
R2C, I've read through the posts.


So you understand how puppy dog tails would deal with it. You also saw MWD view point on some of the more controversial ideas. RobX Gucci have some good points as well. Coach was amazing Vet here.


I did not go looking for OM. That might not have been the best option.

If there is deception going on, I believe it is good to know that. Most guys that find out, do the wrong thing and confront too early, let there emotions control their actions and make things worse.

NEVER reveal WHAT you know.
NEVER reveal HOW you know.

At the proper time , only reveal that you DO know. "We both know that is not true. If you tell me the truth , I will listen, otherwise I have better things to to than listen to lies"


It says SOME recon. If you choose this path, do not be obsessed. Only get enough to know what you are TRULY dealing with.





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Kb, listen to R2C, especially the part about not obsessing. The other thing I believe I said was that the truth always has a way of coming to light. Be vigilant, observe the evidence. If you need to and have the opportunity to look into things then do it. But make sure what your state laws are before going to far


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Not a vet or expert... but it seems to be eating away at you, so you should probably do some recon to find the truth. You need to know what you are dealing with right now, and eventually any real chance at R will require the truth anyways.

Be mentally prepared for the worst, know that you will have a rush of emotions... anger, hurt, confusion, etc... so do not do say or do anything while you are emotional.

I personally always like the truth, no matter how much it hurts. And I'm very analytical and I obsess / dig into details - it's not for everyone. Metaphorically, I like keep touching the hot stove because it helps me detach. Experts suggest that before you dig into more details, take a day and ask yourself will it help you before you do.

On the optimistic side, you could find out there is no EA either smile

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steve, lovingit

I just don't know how to go about investigating. I check our phone logs and see that she's talking a lot to her mom and sister, and also a single female friend that she's been in contact with since she dropped the bomb. My W had many lengthy conversations with this friend. Is she swinging the other way now? Or is my mind making up stories that mess me up even further? She's always on her phone and very protective of it, so theres no way I could grab it from her unless i'm upfront and ask that I see her phone. I guess I just have to bank on the truth coming to light one way or the other...

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Any tips on getting more sleep? I'm starting to become worried because I've been running on fumes not getting sufficient sleep and food these days. This is rough as i can't focus on my work either.

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Originally Posted by kbuenob
steve, lovingit

I just don't know how to go about investigating. I check our phone logs and see that she's talking a lot to her mom and sister, and also a single female friend that she's been in contact with since she dropped the bomb. My W had many lengthy conversations with this friend. Is she swinging the other way now? Or is my mind making up stories that mess me up even further? She's always on her phone and very protective of it, so theres no way I could grab it from her unless i'm upfront and ask that I see her phone. I guess I just have to bank on the truth coming to light one way or the other...


You could be one of the lucky ones. Maybe she is just a WAW, and not a WW. Talking with family and friend is good, hopefully they are pro-marriage. I would not confront her or accuse her of anything worse at this point if you don't have concrete evidence.

My WW pretty much has stayed away from her family and friends. My WW also uses iMessage and Facetime to talk with OM, so it doesn't show up in cellular call logs.

Originally Posted by kbuenob
Any tips on getting more sleep? I'm starting to become worried because I've been running on fumes not getting sufficient sleep and food these days. This is rough as i can't focus on my work either.


Not sure, everyone goes thru this and it takes time. I still can't focus at work and just try to fake it through most days and make sure I get priorities done. Some people suggested getting anti-depressants, but you need to be careful with that and taper off it.

I find that reading this forum, reading relationship books, and watching YouTube videos on relationships helps me with my emotions and feel less isolated to fall asleep - make sure to clear your YouTube search + history. I lost a bunch of weight, so I remind / force myself to eat. Working out will also help.


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Thank you LovingIt,

So my W texts me after a long night at "work" 1230am and says she's going to have a few drinks with her coworkers. I respond with "have a good time" and then try to go back to sleep. Not sure what time she ended coming home.

When i woke up this morning I had this feeling of disgust. I'm starting to be less empathetic to her wanting to be happy and more disgusted that she's choosing her friends over her own son. I never felt angry towards her, but just extremely sad. Now I'm starting to get angry and really disappointed in my W. I'm hoping this will fuel my detachment. Reading TxHubby's sitch was really inspiring, and I need to get to a point of not giving a F about my W and TRULY focusing on myself. I felt like I've been faking the detachment thus far...I need to make it REAL.

I'm almost thinking about letting whatever she's doing slide. As in not giving a F if she's having an affair, not trying to snoop or investigate etc. If it's happening, it's happening. The truth will come out and if i'm playing my cards right, I'll be in a better place to either accept and forgive, or just move on and cut the rope.

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I’m one who thinks you should do some recon. A quick google search will tell you how to investigate without her knowing. Don’t let on though. Never let on what you know. I don’t think you can fix this until you know for sure what you are dealing with.

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Originally Posted by kas99
I’m one who thinks you should do some recon. A quick google search will tell you how to investigate without her knowing. Don’t let on though. Never let on what you know. I don’t think you can fix this until you know for sure what you are dealing with.


Kas99, Do you think that by doing that it will cripple my ability to detach? I feel like if i keep trying to figure it out I will become obsessed with it. Was looking into voice activated recorders etc but man maybe i'm still in denial that i'm in this situation right now.

Her phone is blowing up as we speak and she's buried in it. All I want to do is grab it from her and see who she is texting with all day. It's killing me. How much more could I mess things up if I did that? Honestly?

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Hi KBueno,

Re: surveillance--I'd consider how she and others will feel if/when they learn you collected your info this way. A GPS tracker on her car and monitoring full calls/texts would both reveal a physical affair--but the latter is more invasive, possibly illegal, and involves eavesdropping on others' communications as well. I'd also consider how certain you are you'd act on this info in a meaningful way (e.g., by leaving her).

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Originally Posted by kbuenob
Any tips on getting more sleep? I'm starting to become worried because I've been running on fumes not getting sufficient sleep and food these days. This is rough as i can't focus on my work either.


Talk to your med doc. I had these pills that were amazing. Take one. 30 minutes later, out. 8 hours later, woke up.


Turn off you mind. Things come up, tell yourself you will worry about that tomorrow.

Start at 100, count down by 3's. Do is slowly, focus on your breathing.

100 breath out completely
97 deep breath in
94 breath out completely


If you get to zero, start over at 100.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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I hored a PI. Best money I spent. It was worth the peace of mind because I was being gaslighted so badly and extremely emotionally abused. It helped me detach.


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Cwarrior

Understood, I see what you mean. I just dont see another way other than flat out asking her, yet we all know the likely story is that she will deny it

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Thanks as always R2C.

I will have to talk to my primary care about getting some sleep pills

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I can see myself taking the RobX approach, though that will still need some sort of "proof" of the A, right? I have no proof, just a strong (overwhelming) gut feeling. Her staying out really late, secretive of her phone, no sex or affection, not wearing her ring etc...

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Originally Posted by SoTorn
I hored a PI. Best money I spent. It was worth the peace of mind because I was being gaslighted so badly and extremely emotionally abused. It helped me detach.


Im just not in the position to spend money at the moment. I really would like to set up a phone call with the DB coaches but even that's tight for me.

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Where there is mole there is fire and always trust your gut.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Where there is mole there is fire and always trust your gut.


Hi LH19

But do i confront her based only on this gut feeling that i have? I have nothing else.

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But do i confront her based only on this gut feeling that i have? I have nothing else.


IMO you can't "confront" her based on your gut alone. Heck, even when you have proof.. even rock solid proof... a WW will often just deny it ("Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?") or try to argue around it or in some way put it back on you ("You SPIED on me!!"). I've been through it... I know.. and i've seen others here go through it as well. That's why, if you think you need it and can handle it, you get your proof, but then you never, NEVER share with her exactly what you know (because she'll just argue points about it or flat out deny it) or how you got it (because then a) she'll try to turn it back on you for snooping/spying and b) it burns that source of intel if you need it in the future.) Best thing is to just get the intel/data you need... and then stop looking, because you already know what you need to know. Then, when you confront her, you need only say "I know. I wont have an open marriage. I want you out". If you need to drop the odd detail (such as OM's name, or whatever, it probably doesn't matter) but the more detail you offer up the more you invite discussion/denial, which is completely unproductive, and the more you make it about HER and not about your boundaries... which is what you need to establish and enforce. You can probably establish such boundaries even without knowing for sure if she is in an A: "W, I know you have been spending alot of social time on your own... i don't know what you are doing, but I won't live in an open marriage or "share" you", but You obviously have a bit more weight on your side if you have some proof of infidelity, as well as, obviously, having been alerted to the sitch so you can be "on guard" (read the threads on boundaries for help, here... I was pretty bad at it initially.)

In my case, I flat out caught my W with a burner phone. Twice. Once when she had not turned off the buzzer, left it visible, and OM called her on it when i was standing right there and i picked it up. She had denials both times, even though what she was doing was clear.

I also faced denials when she had been up to no good and i knew she had been. I eventually learned that there was no point in continually policing/confronting her, and established my boundaries that i wouldn't share her or be in an open marriage. Later on, when she got caught continuing to contact OM (and, actually, after nearly an hour of sitting silent together in a car in the park, admitting/confessing to it) I indicated i was going to walk, and she offered to restart counselling, destroy the burner phone, and "no contact" OM (which she had already kind sort committed to before-- like i said at first i was not great at formulating/stating/enforcing boundaries. Even thereafter, it turned out she had been entertaining regular calls from OM at work, even as they were not "seeing" each other... a situation i would not have found out about had i not kept the options open on some of my surveillance by keeping details from her.

At any rate, Readers Digest version: If you think you can handle it, my thinking is that it is best to know, but, once you know, establish your boundaries (and enforce them, when appropriate) and stop looking. Keep the option open to spot check her if she indicates the A is over and/or otherwise wants to stay in the house or if she otherwise indicates she wants to come back to marriage and work on the MR but, otherwise, you know she cheated on you and the MR is, for the time being, over. Once you know that, there is no further reason to check on her unless you suspect she is violating a boundary or if she wants to "come back" and you need to spot check her.


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FWIW, the way i found out (and it was completely inadvertent) was checking our cell phone records (our son has Tourette's syndrome and some other issues and I imposed some phone limits on him so i was checking his calls/texts--- in the process noticed my wife was making about a zillion texts/calls a day to a friend of mine (whose number i had committed to memory and recognize on the online billing record). Cell phone records are, IMO, fair game, especially if you are the one paying the bill. See a frequent number you don't recognize and these days it's pretty easy to check it on reverse phone look up or white pages or whatever.

Prior to seeing the phone records, my W had been showing a lot of the same signs your W and others WWs on here have shown... going out late with GFs more often, dressing more provocatively, working out/losing weight, phone-guarding, but i was pretty clueless. Honestly, I was kind of done with MR, too, at that point. It wasn't until I saw the phone records and then overheard a call between her and OM a couple of days later (Again, completely unplanned/inadvertent) that i was shocked into waking up.

In my case, the burner phones, both times, i just got "lucky" and found when she was careless with them. Straight Talk wireless (carried by WalMart) is the primary offender, here... After the fact in both cases i actually found the receipts from her purchases, which she again carelessly left laying around.

Other than getting lucky when they slip up or by checking the phone (and maybe Credit Card--but she'd have to be really stupid to, say, be getting hotels or anything on your joint cards) records, not sure what you can do. If she has an android phone and a google account and hasn't thought to shut down her location tracker and clear her history then google tracks everything... and i mean EVERYTHING. Downloaded and uninstalled apps (What'sApp is a popular one, and a big red flag, though there are many others), web searches, location history, map searches... in some cases if you haven't turned it off it even saves speech to text and in some cases even voice messages and conversations. All of that stuff is accessible from any computer with an internet browser if you have the google/gmail password. Not sure if apple phones do the same or not. Bottom line, here, though, is that if she has been careful there are ways around all of that stuff.

Only way to be really sure is to hire a P.I., but that can obviously get pricey. Alot of the stuff they use (small voice recorders, GPS trackers) are available for purchase even on Amazon, but are of uncertain legality depending on your jurisdiction. Probably best in those cases to leave it to a PI if you can, but, if you can't, be EXTREMELY careful and know what the law is.

Other than that, I'll repeat again: 1) Dont go searching for something you think you wouldn't be able to handle if you found out and 2) Once you DO find out, don't keep looking except in narrow, spot check-type circumstances where appropriate... it can become an obsession and, in the end, also make it harder for YOU to return to the marriage if the info you find is too scarring.


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Hoosjim,

Thank you, i appreciate your advice. I've been looking at our phone logs and she does talk to her mom and sister quite often. She also talks to this single friend of hers that I dont know (I was able to look up her number). She talks to her quite frequently. I may be jumping to conclusions, but the thought of my W having a lesbian affair has crossed my mind. Ever since this new friend came into the picture is when things started to take a turn for the worst. I met her once and I remember the meeting being quite awkward. Usually her friends are nice and welcoming towards me, this friend was a bit standoffish.

My wife has an Iphone, so things are a bit more complicated when it comes to digging up information. I do feel like if I know the truth it will make it a lot easier for me to let go of my W.

When i was younger (19), I was married and my XW then cheated on me. Once I found out the truth, it was easy for me to say goodbye and kick her out. after which she came back crawling on her knees for me to take her back. maybe this process will happen again...

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kb, are you in IC?

I had a good friend that had two exes that cheated on him. He was severe type 1 diabetic. The stress of his second failed marriage and his disease took his life in his mid-40s. Do not try to deal with this yourself. As I said, these kinds of things cause a type of PTSD. And that is a serious thing.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
kb, are you in IC?

I had a good friend that had two exes that cheated on him. He was severe type 1 diabetic. The stress of his second failed marriage and his disease took his life in his mid-40s. Do not try to deal with this yourself. As I said, these kinds of things cause a type of PTSD. And that is a serious thing.


I 2nd IC. If for nothing else, it helped me get all the confusing and contradicting thoughts out of my head and seeing someone taking notes helped me to let go of a lot of it. I walked in to my first session and wasn’t sure where I would start. I was out of my comfort zone but as soon as I sat on the couch, it all came pouring out. I put blind trust in someone I had just met to listen to everything I had to say, begin to organize all my cluttered thoughts, and determine where to start. Fastest 50 minutes of my life. I walked out with a significant weight off my shoulders and a little clarity in my head.


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Wow kb!
I feel like I’m in the exact same position as you. I just submitted my first post looking for the same help and guidance as you.

I’ve been married to my college sweetheart for 12 years and we’ve been together for about 17 years. I’ve been seeing the signs for a while now and one of them was my 40th birthday in April where I barely even saw her the whole day. My BD was on 10/08 and our 12Y anniversary was 5 days later. I bought her roses and wrote a long letter but we did nothing else that day. Both those days felt very dark and lonely. She hasn’t said the words but I know she’s not in love with me and is not attracted to me.
I’ve moved to the basement and we are living like everything is ok for the kids, but I have a hard time determining if she’s actually enjoying time with me or if it’s all an act for the kids. We haven’t had any physical contact in two weeks. It’s confusing as hell and hard to stay positive but we need to realize that’s all we can do right now.
Working on ourselves is the only way forward. I’ve been working out, eating better, have had one appt with an IC and have scheduled another 5, and trying to GAL.

Try small, repeatable, positive things that you can do to change your daily routine. Last night, I went to a bar by myself to watch the Steelers game. I never do that. It definitely peaked her curiosity to see me go out by myself, especially on a week night. It felt great! Small steps for now.


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steve, jr425

Thanks guys. I tried one session with a IC but walked out feeling kind of gipped. Maybe that particular IC just wasn't for me. She didn't offer up any kind of advice (not sure that thats what they're there for). I ended up spilling my guts to her just like I do with my mom. After 50 mins, I didn't feel any better than I did when i walked in. The bigger problem is that I can't afford an IC, at least on a consistent basis.

I do find comfort in talking to my mom and brother though. They love my W and are very understanding, so they don't try to crucify her every chance they get. I find great comfort in talking to them. I will try to find another IC though - any tips on trying to find the "right" one?

jr425, yes I've been following your posts and sounds like you are on the right track!

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Originally Posted by kbuenob
steve, jr425

Thanks guys. I tried one session with a IC but walked out feeling kind of gipped. Maybe that particular IC just wasn't for me. She didn't offer up any kind of advice (not sure that thats what they're there for). I ended up spilling my guts to her just like I do with my mom. After 50 mins, I didn't feel any better than I did when i walked in. The bigger problem is that I can't afford an IC, at least on a consistent basis.

I do find comfort in talking to my mom and brother though. They love my W and are very understanding, so they don't try to crucify her every chance they get. I find great comfort in talking to them. I will try to find another IC though - any tips on trying to find the "right" one?


One of my self realizations was that since my mom passed nearly 10 years ago, I haven’t talked to anyone the way I used to talk to her. She always kept me grounded and would have never let me get this lethargic and complacent and if she was still here, I wouldn’t be on this forum. It’s great that you have her and your brother to lean on.
I have the same disappointment in my IC so far but will report back next week after session 3 to let you know how it goes.

Originally Posted by kbuenob
jr425, yes I've been following your posts and sounds like you are on the right track!


This was an accidental re-post. I hit the ”back” button one too many times on your thread. Sorry about that!


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Originally Posted by jr425
it all came pouring out. I put blind trust in someone I had just met to listen to everything I had to say, begin to organize all my cluttered thoughts, and determine where to start


Originally Posted by kbueno
I ended up spilling my guts to her just like I do with my mom. After 50 mins, I didn't feel any better

Kbueno, there's comfort in talking to friends who know and support our narratives. As you say, your family won't crucify your wife. I find good therapists challenge my assumptions and beliefs. They occasionally offer advice and exercises, but more often they guide me towards my own decisions.

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Ok, so last night I had sex with W.

I'm not sure if my pulling back has been working, or if she was just horny and needed a body. It's been around 3 weeks since we've even so much as kissed each other on the lips. There has been hello & goodbye hugs here and there but thats it. Steve mentioned to be careful if I suspect she's having an affair, but man it was hard to resist. Did i mention it's been 3 weeks? That's a long stretch considering our history of being really active with each other.

So I stayed at work late last night working on some projects I've been slacking on, and also trying to GAL and get back into the groove of being productive. I come home, and noticed her wearing her nice silky house dress, something that she hasn't worn for a while. I thought, hmm thats different. While she was on the couch watching TV, I also noticed she was exposing her butt and panties to me, yet another thing I haven't seen for a while.

Once we tucked our son in to bed, we did our routine of getting ready for bed ourselves. I went back out into the living room and started watching videos on my phone, while she was doing her own thing in the MBR. She texted me,"maybe you should come watch a show with me?" I told her,"ok after I watch whatever it was that I was watching" I go in the MBR, get in bed and she told me that she wants me. I told her I know, and that I could tell. She said her period is coming and has been feeling horny (sorry for i'm being too explicit). After about 2 seconds of some banter, we go at it. Needless to say it was amazing, and for that period of time I felt like I had my wife back. She was calling me babe, kissing passionately etc

Before we went to sleep, i made it a point to not smother her with affection or good night kisses and hugs. I just kept thinking,"She's a cat, if i do too much now, she's going to run away." Plus i didn't want her to feel like she stole all of my power with sex. So when we were ready for bed, I told her good night, she did the same and we both went to sleep.

In the morning, it was business as usual. Both of us making sure our S is ready for school etc. We left with a hug, but no kissing on the lips. Even though all i wanted to do was kiss her, I didnt force any of that, and made sure to leave on a strong note- good bye and have a great day.

Was i right to not pursue any affection afterwards? Are there any nuggets of info to be gleaned from this experience- or was it just straight up sex and that was it? I know enough already to not get my hopes up- but just need some advice on how i should act moving forward. Continue touch charging? maybe flirt with her a little more during our interactions? Is a spark of attraction for me coming back?

Thoughts?

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It’s great that you have her and your brother to lean on.


Yes, they have been there for me every single time I needed them. It's funny, I feel like through all of this, me and my mom's relationship has been growing stronger

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Never mind saw your response. Stopping IC after one bad session is like never eating out again because you had a bad experience at one restaurant.

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Last edited by job; 11/05/19 09:45 PM. Reason: added link to new thread

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