I just want agree with you on your Alpha point. It’s not about being macho, shooting guns etc. Its about knowing your value, being direct, decisive, leading and going for what you want in life without compromising your beliefs and values.
I do want to disagree with your 4th point. Sandi is actually one of the ones who says she can’t ever remember anybody reconciling in in house separation and she’s been here the longest. I also don’t think she was ever in in house separation. Txhubby was for like 4 years and he admitted it almost killed him. So I would say that in 10 years here you are the only one that was in in house separation who didn’t almost die, it’s logical to say IHS rarely works.
The keystone moment here obviously being when i had had enough of her WW shenanigans and walked out, leaving her behind to continue pursuing my own life, which had become quite awesome by then
I am a firm believer that the sooner one gets to your keystone moment, the better. There are many actions one can take, walking out worked for you. Each of us should share actions that we have seen work. Most of the advise here is not to leave.
Originally Posted by hoosjim
All i can tell you is that my life experience has been that the majority of women I have encountered in social or romantic spheres have been significantly more responsive (not submissive, but responsive) to alpha male behavior. And, again, by "Alpha" i dont' mean domineering lunkhead behavior, but strong, confident, assured behavior and interaction and leadership. I've seen it with myself, i've seen it with friends, and I have seen it most recently and especially with my wife (who is herself a strong and outgoing personality and a high sex-drive woman who can be, herself, forward at times). When i rediscovered my inner "alpha"... which i had lost somewhere along the way,
Again here, I believe that the sooner the posters rediscover or reinvents or learns his inner "alpha" the better. Drop any negative traits and pick up positive ones.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I certainly can't speak for all women or even most women. All i can tell you is that my life experience has been that the majority of women I have encountered in social or romantic spheres have been significantly more responsive (not submissive, but responsive) to alpha male behavior. And, again, by "Alpha" i dont' mean domineering lunkhead behavior, but strong, confident, assured behavior and interaction and leadership.
I'm typically adventurous, decisive, and accustomed to getting my way--BD was confusing!! I don't relate to NMMNG. It's the non-"alpha" skills I've learned that have been helping me the most: listening, validating, relinquishing control sometimes, and pausing before making emotional decisions.
I do relate to what unchien says about boundaries and covert contracts.
I just want agree with you on your Alpha point. It’s not about being macho, shooting guns etc. Its about knowing your value, being direct, decisive, leading and going for what you want in life without compromising your beliefs and values.
Yes, that explanation captures it pretty well, also.
Quote
I do want to disagree with your 4th point. Sandi is actually one of the ones who says she can’t ever remember anybody reconciling in in house separation and she’s been here the longest. I also don’t think she was ever in in house separation. Txhubby was for like 4 years and he admitted it almost killed him. So I would say that in 10 years here you are the only one that was in in house separation who didn’t almost die, it’s logical to say IHS rarely works.
Let me rephrase. I think you (and Sandi2, if that is her position) is technically correct that "in-house separation almost never works." However, I am not trying to say that "in house separation is a good idea"... What i am saying is that i don't think separation of any type is strictly necessary as a general proposition, even though i perceive that there are a number of people on here who are convinced and take the position that, yes, absolutely, there has to be a physical separation and, ideally, a long one, if there is to be an ultimate reconcilliation. Maybe i am overstating their position, but that is the impression i regularly received. If my take on their position is correct, i take issue with it, at least in the context of "Divorce Busting", as that position is not at all promoted in the DB-ing literature or in any other of MWD's writings/teachings. In fact, quite the opposite. Spend some time with one of the DB-ing coaches you can hire through the website... the paradigm is almost uniformly how to deal with and interact with your spouse while they are living with you. Separation, etc, is mostly seen as something to be avoided in the books, IIRC, and ultimatums leading to separation reserved for chapters like the TLRT. Where separation is the natural, preferred, or even necessary course (which can obviously be the case, every sitch is unique) I totally agree that in-house is difficult, painful, possibly counterproductive, and likely almost never the best option for a "separation." I just don't think that physical separation of any sort is as paradigmatically/dogmatically necessary as several other (somewhat vocal) folks on this board seem to think. In this regard I would offer up: Steve85 (no separation, in house or otherwise), Sandi2 herself (check her threads, there was never any physical separation or in house separation at all in her case), TxHubby (Not sure i would actually characterize his situation as an in-house "separation"-- more like in house "doing his own thing and pretty much ignoring his W"... maybe that's splitting hairs, idk, but never seemed like they were conducting any sort of "trial separation" or the like-- seemed more akin to my sitch,) and then myself. So that's four, at least, without even trying. My own sitch was definitely not an IHS, as w and i were "working on" our MR, or at least purporting to to one degree or another, for pretty much the entire time, and our physical "separations", which only happened in the vaguest sense when one or the other of us would leave the marital bedroom for a night or three or five, were fairly limited. Then again, our sitch was pretty unique in a LOT of ways, so much so i don't think i could synopsize it properly without reprinting my threads in their entirety (and maybe not even then as there are things that were left out of those)... and even as there are lessons to be taken from my journey, i am not sure i would use it as as a model for anyone as i sincerely believe the only thing our experience stands for in the big picture is that God is a miracle worker and that we reached our destination, unlikely as it seems and with all our missteps, mistakes, etc, by pretty much the only path we could have taken. All that said, i think my feelings on this are best summed up as follows: "DB-ing, as taught/formulated by MWD, does not require nor even counsel physical separation as being necessary nor even desirable when seeking reconciliation of a MR", and she has a lot of experience in this area, so i have to believe she has seen alot of cases of reconcilliation NOT involving separation beforehand. Maybe the WW syndrome (which MWD has never directly addressed) affects that calculus... but i think even then there is ample evidence that, even while separation might be more commonly beneficial in such cases, it is far from necessary.
Hope that clarifies my thinking...
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Think the separation causes the LBS the most anxiety. I think many see it as a first step to the big D. I know I did. But your point is spot on about how MWD treats the idea of separation.
But lets face, if your spouse has given you the ILYBNILWY speech, there is separation in the heart.
I just want agree with you on your Alpha point. It’s not about being macho, shooting guns etc. Its about knowing your value, being direct, decisive, leading and going for what you want in life without compromising your beliefs and values.
Actually, I think being macho comes across as the opposite of Alpha. When I am feeling alpha, I don't have to be macho. It is when I act macho that I am probably feeling beta. In a wolf pack, the alpha rarely starts a fight. He has an air of confidence about him. Fights usually happen when a beta wants to move up in the ranks can challenge.
But I am not sure why shooting guns keeps coming up. If you are opposed to guns, fine. However, I am record here, multiple times, of suggesting the gun range as a way for LBSs, both MALE AND FEMALE, to go GAL. It has nothing to do with being macho. Or overtly male. Or even Alpha. For me it was the best activity I engaged in for GAL that took my mind off my sitch. When you are on the firing line at a gun range, it demands your full attention. You have to practice gun safety. You have be aware of the firearm you are firing (they all are slightly different, safety or magazine release all in a different location, etc). You have to concentrate on proper shooting form, squeezing the trigger not pulling it, follow through, breathing. It is a 100% absorption activity. AND that got my sitch off my mind like no other GAL activity I engaged in. Going to the movies? Nope, still thought about my sitch. Hanging out with friends? Nope, still thought about my sitch. IC? Still thought about it. Reading? Still thought about it? Hunting? Still thought about it.
But at the gun range....for that one hour....my mind was completely focused on the task at hand. It was the only GAL I tried that took my mind completely off of my sitch. That is why I suggest it to LBSs, and for no other reason. If there are other activities that require that kind of focus, then I say go for it. But that is what worked for me.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I agree with a lot of what Hoosjim is saying. I don't know that I'm out of the woods, but we are working on things in my sitch and there is no OM anymore. We did the "in-house separation" kinda, except my W was staying with OM a lot.
But I want to touch on Hoosjim's "keystone moment" and share mine, because I think it was really profound when he had his "Eureka" moment. Mine happened twice. I was hurting so bad last August after my W said she wanted to R and then ran back to OM again. I was spiraling. I remember Gordie and a couple others saying to just go NC. I did. It lasted almost 2 weeks. My W, called, texted, called my office, emailed often over this time period. If I went home, I'd go the long way to drive around the corner and make sure she wasn't home. If she was, I went elsewhere and sometimes stayed out for the night or came home late and went straight to bed. I'd wake up extra early and get out of there before she'd be up. I got a dog because I really thought things were over between me and my W and that I wouldn't be hunting with her dad anymore (having a dog for the type of hunting I do is very helpful and rewarding so it was a moving on action on my part). I know this is avoiding but it worked for me, it helped me become more centered and less stressed.
I had to do it again around Christmas time, but it didn't last as long, only a few days. Full disclosure: my W did run back to OM again in March for a couple days and threatened divorce again. I said OK I understand, as I've dealt with it so much that the words only stung now instead of cutting deep. I've posted in my thread about reading material for NC (no contact) and how that is the best way to get your ex back. I do think there is more to consider than flat out going NC though. But for me, going NC was the best way to tell myself that this reality is true. That my marriage is over and that I need to change the status quo and believe her for once and let her experience the reality she is showing and telling me she wants.
I think these "keystone" moments are of great learning opportunity for all here.
I like your last point too, Many Worries. We fear the formal separation, and I while I don't think we LBS's should move to formally advance the formal separation, we should accept that their is a great separation emotionally like you said.
Good thread guys, thanks for contributing.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
I think I've shared my keystone moment before. And it was when I told my W that I had contacted a lawyer.
For those that don't know or remember my W wanted a quickie, internet D. WW fog made her think we could do that. She was willing to walkaway with nothing, after she got a job, but I was insistent that we'd sell the house, and cut all assets down the middle. We were going to 50/50 custody, so depending on the job she got would have determined support.
I decided I needed to be realistic about things, realized that the odds of ending up D'd were great as she continued to insist she was done. So I called an attorney. Had an over-the-phone consult with him. He was pushing me to file first which I didn't care about doing since our verbal plan was too go the above route.
The next time we were discussing things, and she brought up D, and started going on about how easy it could be, I just flatly told her: "Well, it won't be quite that easy. I've already spoken to a lawyer, and he has gone through the process with me." Her face dropped, all the color drained from it, and a sobering look swept over her.
From that moment on things seemed to change. She became more participatory in MC. She started to reengage as a family. It was the first hint that things might start to swing in the other direction.
Up to then she thought I was so vehemently opposed to D that I would never do anything that even hinted at potentially embracing it. When that illusion was shattered it appeared the rest of her fog started to dissipate.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
But I am not sure why shooting guns keeps coming up. If you are opposed to guns, fine. However, I am record here, multiple times, of suggesting the gun range as a way for LBSs, both MALE AND FEMALE, to go GAL. It has nothing to do with being macho. Or overtly male. Or even Alpha. For me it was the best activity I engaged in for GAL that took my mind off my sitch. .
I disagree. Guns have a certain phallic connotation. You can't deny that. There are lots of activities that will get your mind off your situation - that require absolute concentration, etc. I think guns are equated with manliness by many certain people.
