Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 114
4
Member
OP Offline
Member
4
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 114
Originally Posted by sandi2
I will admit it is a little difficult for me to give you unbiased advice about your sitch, b/c I don't like your WW. She may have issues that originated in her childhood, IDK. She has admitted to knowing what it is and what she does wrong and stubbornly refuses to go get help b/c she doesn't want to "hear about it" in therapy. Okay, but the main thing I don't like about her is that she is a bully. She is a manipulator. Now, call me crazy.........but I have not seen a bully, manipulator, and abuser in a relationship change by having R talks. These type of people do not wish to resolve the problems within the relationship! Do you get that, 44? She is bullying you to move out of the house.


I do get it. But I need constant reminding. Remember, I have been manipulated for years. My brain does not see clearly anymore. I am not making excuses, I'm just being honest that it is extremely difficult for me to remember that she is the bad guy. That she will not respond like a normal, sensible human being. Thankfully, yesterday when she pressed me on the issue of a "plan", it took me an hour per text, BUT. I wrote all kinds of feelings, sensible arguments, expressed my rage, but every time I would edit and edit again until it was DB approved. I erased everything and went with the detached answer. I fully understand that she does not want to resolve problems. I just need to never forget it.

Quote
Why are you freaking???? You have been posting about this very possible scenario, so now it's here. And, being 44tries, you want to sit down and design a mature plan............with a very immature WW. What will you propose? More IHS until you get your degree? Which means more abuse, b/c she doesn't want you cramping her style. The more you tell her you need time to finish your course work, or more time to think about things.........the more harassment she's going to dump on you. It is your call, 44. I just don't want you go stick your head in the sand, hoping she'll do "the right thing".........b/c that is not taking action to protect yourself. You need to get a lawyer's legal advice, and I think you said you had the military policy (in writing) about marital separation, etc.


I don't know! I don't wan't to be freaking. I want to feel in control. I am certainly not going to hang everything on hoping she does the right thing. Your advice is wise and I need to seek a consultation. Ultimately, there is no way she can legally kick me out for at least three months, per my therapist, if she filed tomorrow. Which by the way, she threatened again yesterday that she would go to the courthouse then or today, and once again she has not followed through. If I stand my ground, I feel fairly confident she will back down. Maybe I am too optimistic, but she is more bark than bite. She comes home from work and goes on these rants about accountability and upholding standards, etc. She gives me all these mock lectures meant for these "crappy" people she works with. I want to turn those speeches back on her, I mean it's almost a joke. How she can go on about all these values that she is blatantly violating in her personal life. She is very passionate and good at her job. Maybe if I had held her accountable in the same way, things would be different IDK.

Quote
You say you wish you didn't love her so much. From the time you first joined the board, I did not sense your posts were coming from a broken-hearted man who was desperately in love with his WW. And, I mean no disrespect by saying this, 44. I think you wanted to have that bond with her. You, like most every person, wanted to be a good spouse, get your degree so that you could make a decent living, and have a happy marriage. Your W, on the other hand, had doubts from the beginning, and I think she knew in her heart that she was not committed. I think she likes the initial stage of a new relationship. The flirting, texting, maybe even having sex......IDK. As we have previously discussed, she has some type of fear of intimacy, vulnerability, or something else that prevents her from fully committing to a long term relationship. She'll move on the next OM to get the initial "rush", and the next, etc. Now, whether she has a mental/emotional problem or not...........you do not have to endure her abuse. You said it was hard to "give up" on your W. I think it is hard to give up the dream you had for this MR, which I think we all had when we M young. I simply do not see this situation getting better by you trying to hunker down on your side, b/c the problem is not you. You could be the perfect role model of a H, and I don't think it will change her behavior, now.


If I'm honest, the first part of this is a bit disturbing to me. I mean, I have worked very hard not to be "desperate" so I guess I am glad I did not come off that way. But I am not exactly sure the reason you question my love for my W. Of course, I wish it was reciprocated and that bond was whole and my marriage was happy. And yes I am a practical person and have not neglected those areas of life. But if I was basing this on practicality, I would not be here spending my time hung up on someone who does not deserve it. It is only because of you and all the others and my work here that I am able to see that she does not deserve it. If i came here with sappy sobbing, I would be hit with 2x4s. I do believe if you read my early threads, you would see some. Sure, it is hard to give up the dream I had for the MR. That is part of mourning in a D. But it is not just that. It is about accepting that my W is a crappy person. It is about giving up on the thought that maybe she is just in pain, maybe she just needs help, etc. I really believe in her. And every time I come here, everyone convinces me why I shouldn't and I just fight and fight to tell myself that you are all right.

As for the rest of what you wrote here, I think you are spot on. She clearly has some fear of vulnerability/commitment and enjoys the thrills of a new relationship, partying with friends, etc. She wants freedom and to run away from real responsibility. It is very helpful for you to reiterate that the problem is not me. I agree that no changes on my part alone could ever change her behavior. And I do not have to endure her abuse. That is the part that I can surely subscribe to. I am so angry at this point, I do believe it is stronger than whatever fears I have about pissing her off or sending her to the courthouse etc. This is why I am so angry at my detachment because I still "freak out" about that stuff, but when I go to sleep at night, ultimately I do not. I know who is right and who is wrong. I know it is not me and I am not afraid to make her angry if it means standing up for myself. I told her clearly my priority is to protect myself.

Quote
It seems to me that when you have been under pressure from her, it is hard for you to take the lead and make a firm decision that might not align with what she wants. You wait to see what she does, what she tells you, or whatever......you wait for her to call the shots. If she goes into her avoiding routine, then you fall back to the DB principle of working on yourself, etc., etc. I'm going out on a limb to say that some men with NGS, envision that particular DB principle much in the same way they use the title or label of "Christian" as a their excuse to stay with an unloving, even abusive, spouse....rather than lead with a decision or action independent of his spouse. What I'm saying is that this principle is seen as a comfort zone. It even sounds safer. However, these H's struggle enforcing boundaries b/c the lines have become so blurry living in those conditions day after day......and the wayward spouse wears them down. It's like battle fatigue! Again, I am not trying to be insulting.......really! I'm not saying that particular DB principle is wrong, and I'm not saying religion, scripture (or whatever) else is wrong. I'm saying what I've seen in this type of situation where a man who has insecurity issues, and who "freaks out" when W pressures him for immediate action. I see men who back down and settle for a bad sitch, hoping upon hope she will change.


I think this is pretty accurate and can definitely be applied to me, at least in the past. I hope I am at the point where I will no longer settle for a bad sitch. My patience has worn thin, and I cannot ignore the reality that this is happening again. She has even called me out on what you describe, waiting for her to call the shots and wait for her cue. But it is tricky in this case because she is the one who is initiating all of this. How can I take the lead? It does go against the DB principle of putting the focus on yourself and not the sitch. So what do you recommend exactly? How do I call the shots?

Quote
44, everything you've said about her signing legal contracts, etc., is true. However, we are talking about a woman who has a problem with commitment, who is totally selfish, who is in rebellion.......and don't forget, illogical. I think men are taking a huge, huge gamble when they invest into a new house with a WW. Even if she was a recovering WW who was doing the necessary work to save her MR, I think it is a mistake..........unless they have nowhere to live and buy cheaper than renting. I would tell anyone who should ask me personally, to hold off the first couple of years that WW is recovering.


I completely understand this, but I don't know what to do about it. Everyone in my life tells me, no you are not crazy, you are not the problem, everything is reasonable. The legal contracts is true, etc. But IT DOES NOT MATTER TO HER! That is the whole problem. I feel like the only thing I can do is keep playing above board, and standing up for my side of these legal contracts, and everything else that goes with them. But like you said if she is not playing by fair rules, what does it matter?? As far as investing in a new house, yes I hear you. If I was asked to put my life savings into it, I would not. She used her military benefits, which are generous in allowing you to buy a house without investing much. It is much cheaper than renting where we are. And at the time, she was all about "our" house and doing it together. What am I supposed to do when she comes back and goes back on everything when she changes her mind. It is not fair, it is not even legal. But it's the same issue, this doesn't matter. I can stand my ground and give her her own accountability speech and tell her tough luck she put herself in this position. Or I can move out, per her request. What is your suggestion? It seems that you think I should move out, but I am not totally clear.

Quote
And speaking of gambling.............. shocked On top of everything else, she has a gambling addiction. Yes, she does. In fact, she may not be in an affair, and there may not be some OM. Her texting and sneakiness may very well be connected to something else. Here's what I'm going to suggest. I think you need to do what works for you. Would you do better if you actually had Intell about OM, or would you become more obsessive? You are currently losing your mind and don't even know for sure. Look, rebellion takes on different forms. Waywardness is begins in the heart/mind before it ever shows overtly. Most cases we have on the board does include a WW in an affair, but I have said for years that the WW can show rebellion in other ways........and become addicted to other things. I would say an affair ranks the top of the list, but gambling is not too far behind. In some cases, the WW gets into the GGW lifestyle, starts taking drugs, etc. Sometimes it's the OM that leads her off into other areas, but not always. I'm just saying that you could be looking so hard for OM that you don't see what's really going on.


I completely agree with what you are saying here. I am not yet convinced there is an actual OM. And I am clear on why it doesn't really matter. The waywardness is clear as day, and however it manifests is not ultra relevant. BUT, at the end of the day, an affair IS a bit different than gambling, drinking, etc. Simply in the severity of my response. Perhaps not if she was off the rails, spending every last dime at the casino or going drinking every night. But as it stands, it has not crossed the line to really affect me the way an affair would. And that's why I have been driving myself crazy going back and forth on it.

Quote
You said if you knew for sure there was an OM, you'd tell her to pack her stuff and leave. Okay, so get the Intell, and save your sanity. I just want you to remember a couple of things before you do it. Once you read it, you can't unread and it's there in your memory bank forever. Once you read the evidence, it takes much more self control to not look again, and again, and again........better known as "snooping". It may sound more like a play on words, but some distinguish gathering evidence or Intell apart from daily snooping. As one of the guys told you, once you have evidence, don't keep going back to see what they say the following days. It is very addictive behavior, and only you know if you can handle it.


If it is okay for me to do from a legal standpoint, yes I would tell her to leave. I run the risk of her not paying the mortgage or other bills, but she is legally obligated to do so. Part of her paycheck is designated for me and the house. And if she is committing adultery, she has no ground to stand on and I could report her and cost her everything. She knows this. Of course I doubt she believes I would ever do it. But if it came to that, I would. This is why I say she is bark over bite. Anyway, I would need some kind of evidence. From what you said, it sounds like I need to get intel. I have no concern I would be tempted to go back for more. I am only concerned with knowing one way or the other. I am all too aware that it cannot be erased from my memory. That is enough for me to keep it to the bare minimum. I cannot emphasize enough how much I do not want to allow her to cause me any more hurt than she already has.

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Quote
I do get it. But I need constant reminding. Remember, I have been manipulated for years. My brain does not see clearly anymore. I am not making excuses, I'm just being honest that it is extremely difficult for me to remember that she is the bad guy.


You may have Stockholm syndrome, IDK. I think it's another reason you need to stick to the board. Not to read the bashing of your W, but rather to help you stay focused and able to see your sitch more objectively.

Quote
yesterday when she pressed me on the issue of a "plan", it took me an hour per text, BUT. I wrote all kinds of feelings, sensible arguments, expressed my rage, but every time I would edit and edit again until it was DB approved. I erased everything and went with the detached answer.


Great! Writing out your emotions sounds as if it could be a helpful form of therapy. Also remember this, she may not care how you feel......but the people on the DB understand your fear & anger. We care.

Quote
Ultimately, there is no way she can legally kick me out for at least three months, per my therapist, if she filed tomorrow. Which by the way, she threatened again yesterday that she would go to the courthouse then or today, and once again she has not followed through. If I stand my ground, I feel fairly confident she will back down. Maybe I am too optimistic, but she is more bark than bite.


Threatening is a form of bullying. The bully will target your area of fear. Once they see their bullying is ineffective, the dynamics change. I remember an episode of an old TV show. The elementary age son was being bullied to give up his lunch money every day. The bully was bigger in size and would threaten to beat up this smaller boy if he didn't surrender the lunch money. Finally the boy talked about it to his dad (which, was a wise Andy Griffith). I think he asked his son, Opie, what was the worst that could happen if he didn't give this bully his lunch money. Opie told him him he was afraid of the bully physically fighting him, b/c Opie was smaller. Andy asked Opie what was he dealing with now. Living in fear of this bully, going hungry at school, experiencing low self esteem, etc.......all due to his fear of the bully fighting him. Anyway, Andy told him it would not end until he stood up to the bully and was ready to fight.... even if it meant he would get punched. Next day, the bully approached him to force over the lunch money, but Opie told the bully he would not get money that day or any other day. I think Opie told the bully that he did not want to fist fight, but he would. Then Opie held up his fists to indicate he was ready to fight the bully. The bully backed down and didn't bother him anymore (which was good TV), but the point was that this boy had to face his fear, even if it meant that he got beat up. Opie had suffered more from the fear of this bully slugging him, until if was affecting his entire life.

44, I think I have previously suggested that you identify the action your W does, or could do, that you fear. If you can't name it, how will you stand up to it? Your W knows you well, and she keeps you vulnerable by threats, withholding affection, emotionally bashing you with criticism, pressuring you to do something you don't want to do, etc. It's as if you have been in this emotional prison for a long time.

Okay, so you don't want to stay with your grandparent. You see that being a worse case scenario than your current situation? I'm just asking. Which ordeal can you handle the best, while you focus on the last miles to your degree? Next question: Do you really believe, or are you saying what you think the board wants to hear, that WW would get her own apartment while she financially supports you in that new home? I don't know how much she draws through the military, but I'm thinking she would struggle forking over money for two separate housing........so she would leave you stranded with the fallout. WW's don't really care about contracts, or how their credit score is affected. WW's operate from what? Their emotions. Not logic, but feelings. Therefore, stop expecting or hoping she will do the right thing. Instead, prepare for the worst.

Just in case there are newcomers reading, I'm going to tell you to do some things that may sound contrary to last year's advice when you were trying to save the MR. I'm going to tell you some things that are going to be tough to do, and when you read it your feelings may get somewhat confused b/c in the back of your mind you see yourself DBing your M. The time has come for you to let go. If you don't want to heed my advise, that is certainly up to you, b/c it's your life.

First step, 44, is to let go of the dream you had for this MR. Accept that it is over, and let go of your W. I am not telling you how to feel about it. I'm saying what you need to do to survive a WW who is out of control. You have to face your fear of divorce. You don't have to like it, agree with it, or "believe in divorce"........but in order for you to face your fear, you have to let go of the MR. That fear of divorce is currently doing more emotional damage than if it had already happen in reality. You are Opie, 44. It's the fear that grips you by the b@lls and keeps you feeling like that little bullied boy. My advice is to accept that the M is over and conduct your actions as if you were already divorced and she is no longer a part of your life.

If you don't understand what I mean, then let me put it this way. Stop treating her as though she is your beloved spouse. Stop talking to her as if you love her unconditionally. Stop being tender with her. Stop rescuing her from herself. Stop doing favors for her, washing her bedding, running errands, etc. Stop being her friend! Stop going on vacations, trips, etc. Stop accommodating her. Stop spending time with her. Stop acting as if her feelings matter to you. Stop being afraid of her rants, and stop listening to them. Stop trying to save the M. Allow her to experience the vacancy you leave in her life.

Quote
Ultimately, there is no way she can legally kick me out for at least three months, per my therapist, if she filed tomorrow.


Maybe, but does the law force her to feed you and pay the utilities? What good is staying in a house without food, electricity and heat through the winter? Does the law force her to have a joint bank account with you? If you could financially cover the necessities you'll need, then no problem. However, if she has control over your living conditions, it seems it would have you at a big disadvantage. If you can receive spousal support from the military, without going through her hands, so to speak, that would be much better, IMHO. Another thing I'll mention about the new house, is something one of my relatives when through when her H left her with a baby a new house. She was so worried about the house going into foreclosure, and finally her lawyer told her, "There are far worse things that could happen in life". I don't know if that is comforting or not, but it seem to have helped her let go of some stress. I'm just saying that if you can't pay for the house, then what can you do? I would think, but could be wrong, that there would be a military department that can advise or inform a LBS of options. I know child support can be held out of the check and sent directly to the custodial parent, so why not in cases of separation/divorce? Get on the ball about taking steps to cover yourself, and forget about WW/MR.

Quote
She gives me all these mock lectures meant for these "crappy" people she works with. I want to turn those speeches back on her, I mean it's almost a joke. How she can go on about all these values that she is blatantly violating in her personal life. She is very passionate and good at her job. Maybe if I had held her accountable in the same way, things would be different IDK.


She cannot see further than her nose, b/c she is wayward! You cannot reason with crazy! How about this.......she doesn't get to lecture you! You aren't waiting around all day for her to come home and bash you. Either leave the house, ignore her, or tell her to hush. Some WW's who are married to


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
Opps, didn't mean to hit the submit key. So where was I? Some WW's have to be shown that the LBH isn't going to give her his attention when she is being bossy, demanding, criticizing, etc. Know what I mean? I suspect you have never put her in her place, or even know what I mean by that statement. For now, just stop giving her your attention when rants. The second it begins.......you turn your back, walk out, turn up the TV, or do something that shows you aren't interested and aren't going to put up with it. The usual advice is to look at the spouse, listen, validate, etc. I'm saying not to do any of that when she starts the rants and criticism. You have switched from the passive, caring, tender spouse who was trying to endure her bad treatment.......to a man who will not take abuse. Don't crawl into a shell, 44. If you can't shut her out, then go somewhere you don't have to hear it.

Quote
Maybe if I had held her accountable in the same way, things would be different IDK.


I think it could have been effective last year, but that particular window of time has passed. You aren't trying to save the relationship, you are saving yourself. She is on her own until she is ready to commit to working on the MR. Your job does not require you to be her punching bag. Last year, you were the H who was available to listen to her vent about her job/coworkers. She did not appreciate it. She took something valuable and mistreated it, so now she will face the vacant space her caring H use to occupy. At first, she will probably feel enraged that her H is no longer acting like her puppet, who can make decisions for himself. She didn't see that his attention was a loving gift. Therefore, it is currently not available to hear her negativity about him, their M, her job, or her life in general. She took & took and wouldn't give back.

Quote
I really believe in her.


What do you mean when you say you believe in her?

Quote
My patience has worn thin, and I cannot ignore the reality that this is happening again. She has even called me out on what you describe, waiting for her to call the shots and wait for her cue. But it is tricky in this case because she is the one who is initiating all of this. How can I take the lead? It does go against the DB principle of putting the focus on yourself and not the sitch. So what do you recommend exactly? How do I call the shots?


I thought I tried to address this subject last year. I don't know if it is me or you, but one of us is confused. You can't lead b/c it goes goes against the DB principle of focusing on yourself?

Well, you can throw out what I said in my last post, as well as this one.....if you don't agree with what I recommended. Just tell me, so I don't spend a lot of time with something you know you aren't going to do. smile

Quote
What am I supposed to do when she comes back and goes back on everything when she changes her mind. It is not fair, it is not even legal. But it's the same issue, this doesn't matter. I can stand my ground and give her her own accountability speech and tell her tough luck she put herself in this position. Or I can move out, per her request. What is your suggestion? It seems that you think I should move out, but I am not totally clear.


I wrote about some of this in the previous post. If you would be making your life more miserable by moving in with relatives, then don't do it. My point is to check all your options to see what works the best, other than the two of you remaining under the same roof.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
I left your thread yesterday, not feeling so good. Even when I write a sentence to tell other readers the advice in that particular post is going to sound different from the usual or initial advice we give when one first joins the board..........I think many people must only read a portion and aren't acquainted with the history of the sitch. More importantly, I kept thinking about you, 44, and what you said about everyone telling you how your W was crappy, and how that effected you. Then I remembered I had made the statement that I didn't like your WW. I should have said I don't like her ways.

I am guilty of trying to get the LBH's eyes open to see the wayward attitude & behavior in his W.......and how their dynamic has to change before he can have a healthy MR....and, I probably don't sound very compassionate. I'll be the first to say a lot of my posts have a harsh edge, b/c I can identify with what sets WW's apart. I'm trying to get the LBH to see that he can't be a wimp with a WW-- and believe she's going to change how she feels about him.

You asked what if your W just needed help. Well, let me ask a question in return. What do you think it would take for her to seek psychiatric therapy that dealt with whatever she claims happened in her childhood? I'll ask an easier one..What do you think it would take for her to stop her bullying/controlling behavior?

You are not the bad guy, 44. That does not mean you've been perfect. I think you enable a lot of your W's behavior, by simply allowing her to control your actions. Anyway, I'm going to end here. Hope you have a decent weekend.

((hugs))


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 114
4
Member
OP Offline
Member
4
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 114
First of all, thank you so much Sandi, for taking the time to write so much to me. I know exactly why you have a "harsh edge" and what your intentions are. I Understand how the LBH needs to really be reminded what he is dealing with and I think your approach is great for that. You are worried about disclaiming what you wrote to me for newcomers, but to be honest, it really is not against DBing. You are telling me to let go of the MR, and the dream I had for it, and move forward with the sole focus of protecting myself and not worrying about WW. That is what I have been told since the day I joined this board. You may have put it bluntly, or maybe you meant it in some distinguishing way, but the reality is TRUE DB is doing what you suggested, and I have not yet gotten to that place where I have truly let go. I have made a lot of peace, I've succeeded in all the non pursuit and faking it, but have I ever truly moved forward with the mindset that I am not hoping for R? No. And it will be very tough. Some of it will still be faking it. But, unless I am misinterpreting you somehow, I hear clearly what you are saying and fully subscribe. I just cannot have the fear anymore. And the only way that happens is to actually let go.

Your bully example with Opie was great. If the fear goes, everything changes. Suddenly all that power it holds over me is gone. My next IC session I am going to specifically bring up that I want to work on this issue. Getting rid of the fear. You put it as the fear of divorce, and I think that's an apt way to describe it. I don't know if it is one thing over the other. It's losing my wife, my home, my lifestyle, security/comfort zone, feeling humiliated about this happening to me, stress about being set back financially, who knows what else I am not thinking of right now. But if you roll it all up and call it divorce, yes it's terrifying. It all flashes before my eyes and W knows it. And she needs to not know it or nothing will change. And by that I mean, I need to be no longer terrified. Just like Opie.

You wrote about the bashing on my W and it's affect on me. This is something I have struggled with since joining here last year. It is a touchy thing for me because realizing you may have been manipulated, or trusted someone you shouldn't, or your own W is not who you thought she was, has the power to touch one's self esteem, self confidence, self trust. And that is a deep thing. It is very painful for me to think about, perhaps I cannot even fully articulate why. It is a constant struggle for me to reconcile the things I read here with a holistic reality. Obviously, you do not know my W. The only things you know about her have been written by someone that isn't her (me). So whatever image you have in you mind of who she is, surely is not totally accurate. It just isn't possible. How accurate it is I have no idea. A lot of us search for reasons for our WW's behavior. Past trauma, mental illness, MLC, you have heard them all. For me, at least, this is because I do not believe people are "bad" or do bad things for no reason. And I certainly don't want to believe that if there are such bad people, that I married one. I guess what I'm trying to say is, similar to how you came back and said you would rather say you don't like my W's ways than HER, it's hard to let go of W for her ways when they don't match who I think she really is (I realize there is a disconnect here).

Just trying to explain the LBH perspective, I think of it kind of like rebellious teenagers who act out. You know it's because they are hurting, having trouble at home, etc, all the stereotypical reasons. They may require tough love, but you don't give up on them. You don't stop loving them. Maybe for me to stop loving my W, I feel like I must feel she is a bad person. Otherwise I just can't. This is what I meant when I said I don't want to give up on her. The thing about my W, that is very hard for me to wrap my head around, is that she seems to have two value systems. It's as if she knows what she should value highly, but she doesn't. But if you know something's value is high, how do you value it low? It is a very tricky thing. But that dissonance is her disease. She knows the "right" way to live, how to be financially responsible, what career and education moves would be best, what kind of person is ideal to marry, etc. She is not dumb. And she wants all those things, which I think is the part of her that is attracted to me, because I check all those "look good" boxes. I am an attractive, educated, "set-up-for-success" guy that is easy to show off at parties or meet your mom. And she comes from a background, unlike me, where finding someone like that might not have been the most likely outcome. I hope I am not coming off like some arrogant a$$hole here, it is not at all my intention. I'm just trying to illustrate her internal conflict. She wants to make good choices and have the kind of life that comes with that, but then there is this other half of her that throws it all away. She wants to want it, but she doesn't. Instead, she would rather go throw away all her disposable money at the casino, have stupids flings with 19 year olds, and go out drinking with people throwing away their paychecks at the casino right alongside her.

This is part of the problem. It is easy for you guys reading here to see the black and white, and say no doubt about it she has a gambling problem ,etc. I am not saying I don't agree, but it is not as black and white as it may appear at first. Half of her immediate circle coworkers are VIPs at the casino (I am not exaggerating here). For reference, she has only attained like two levels below that. She does not spend money that is not disposable. And all around her, this is "normal" behavior. Do they all have problems? Probably. It certainly is not financially responsible, whether or not we can call it a disease. And being married to someone like me, she has to constantly feel like I'm judging her or controlling her and ruining her fun if she wants to participate. I don't tell her what she can or can't do with the money she earns, nor do I berate her about her decisions, but I am not going to lie and say great idea! Pull $500 more out and keep going! She knows I don't approve, ultimately because she knows it's WRONG. Maybe not morally in this case, but you get the idea. She seems to constantly want to do things that she knows aren't the right thing and it tortures her. It's like she tries to hold the dam, but it routinely fails and she falls off her internal value wagon. And I am left with someone who I thought was a partner on all these things, suddenly go into rebellion. I realize it's not truly sudden, because she has been struggling against the dam the whole time. The waywardness is always there. But I get it, I cannot chase her back into the fire and get burned myself.

Quote
She didn't see that his attention was a loving gift. She took and took and wouldn't give back.


This is extremely helpful for me. To think of it this way. It helps me value myself and see the situation more clearly. You described the issue PERFECTLY.

When I asked how do I take the lead, I meant specifically in this instance regarding the plan for divorce. W says I am not initiating, but that is because I am not going to be the one to D. It isn't me that wants it.

Quote
You asked what if your W just needed help. Well, let me ask a question in return. What do you think it would take for her to seek psychiatric therapy that dealt with whatever she claims happened in her childhood? I'll ask an easier one..What do you think it would take for her to stop her bullying/controlling behavior?


Honestly, it doesn't feel like it would take an impossible miracle to get her to go. Just a moment where she comes to her senses, realizes there is a very smooth option available to her (that she only has because she has a spouse, btw), and actually wants help. She is very conflicted in general, as discussed above, and some days would fight tooth and nail the idea of getting help and others feel desperate and consider it, from my observation anyway. I am trying to figure out how to tell her she can go to therapy on her own under my care plan and it will not go on her record (her big fear due to military career). I was not aware of this. I also thought MC would cost money. It turns out that it is ALL covered. She can go see the therapist on her own as IC and it fits under the umbrella of family counseling for insurance purposes, in this case MY counseling. That would be an important point to her and I have already done the work of finding the therapist. It's all there if she were to just agree. But it feels like the wrong time to bring it up and like it would be applying pressure, even if I'm just honestly trying to let her know about a resource available to her.

I actually had a dream last night where everything changed when I finally stood up to her and treated all of her behavior for what it really is. I do think with my W she does not have any solid support to lean on in life and really needs someone who is not going to put up with her sh!t. I think she needs to get to a certain point before even that would be functional and I honestly have no idea how close she really is. But I know I could do way better at putting her in her place. The good thing is I feel more able to do so than I ever have yet. So I am really serious about becoming the guy no one would dare cheat on for fear of the consequences. Or mistreat, etc. Like how am I so far from that guy? I hate that. No more. I believe I can become him, but I also know I will need a lot of help. Which you have provided so much and I thank you for that. I know this community is the best place for me to work on becoming that guy.

I hope I touched on the all the important parts of what you wrote. I actually started writing this a few days ago, so I'm going to include a sitch update to follow and if it feels disjointed or like all my emotions changed in 15 min, that's why.

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 114
4
Member
OP Offline
Member
4
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 114
As if that post wasn't long enough, I haven't posted any update and it feels like my sitch is on rollercoaster extreme mode.

The conversation initiated by W about me leaving never resumed. After she went out with her coworkers the next day, the following day (Friday) I went to a double feature at the movies. It is basically impossible to use the three tickets per week that come with the membership. W was standing at the door asking where I was going, why so early, was I going alone. I simply said I'm meeting a friend, see ya later, and closed the door. I did invite a new friend, but he couldn't make it. I was gone from about 5pm to 11pm. Anyway, W knows about my movie membership and assumed I was going on a date with a new "friend" to the movies. I only know this because her sister called me to tell me she had told her I was seeing someone and just went on a date to the movies, and that I had taken my wedding ring off. I did take my ring off a couple weeks ago (after she had taken off hers), because every time I saw it on my hand it was like a gut punch, even when I had managed not to be thinking about it otherwise. So into my nightstand drawer it went. I didn't even think of it like a signal I was going to date. Now I'm wondering if it was a mistake? I just didn't think much of it, sometimes I leave my ring off anyway, before all this. Regardless, W hasn't said anything to me about thinking I'm seeing someone (last year she did), just her sister. She has however made it clear she is tracking me on the credit cards when I go out and gave herself away that she was frustrated she saw nothing from my night out on Friday (because I have caught on to this).

On the potential OM front, I am still so far in the dark. I saw nothing suspicious all weekend, she didn't see anyone or go out, and I was honestly ready to declare on Sunday morning that the investigation has turned up absolutely nothing in a month, and it's time to consider the possibility that there really is no A. And then JUST in time, W finally slips, just a little. She went to the grocery store, innocent enough, but she was gone too long. When she got back, it turned out she had also gone to a sex store (very strange, atypical behavior. We have gone to one maybe twice that I can remember). Even more insane, she says they had a BOGO half off sale, and gifts me the other item! and says here's a coupon in case you want to buy more. ??? As we're standing there talking about this, within a few minutes of her getting home, her phone rings. She looks at it and says ugh, I don't want to talk to her right now (meaning her sister, who has been having her own drama over the weekend). I said, O, SIL about her sitch? And she said yes. Well, that was quite easy to verify. I asked her sister if she had just called and she said no. Finally, I caught her in a lie that was 100% proven. That said, it could mean nothing, who knows why she didn't bother or want to say who called. But then, she says her car has been having some trouble and she wants to go drive it around. She was gone for about 30 min maybe, I assume to call the person back. So that was definitely some very strange, red flag behavior. However, that is all I've got. I have been watching and watching for texting, phone calls, coming home late, etc and there is just nothing. I do leave her alone most of the time, but still.

Last night she called me on my way home from IC and asked if I could start dinner because she had got off work late and just now got to the gym. I immediately was suspicious, thinking she was finally getting lazy. I said I wasn't home yet but I can start the pot. She didn't ask where I was. She got home when she said she would and looked like she really had been at the gym, red in the face etc. She talked about her workout and who she saw there. Why she got off work late. If it's all lies, I give it a 10/10. And then she went to take a bath, didn't close the door, and then wanted me to come in and show me some new music she has found during all of her early bedtimes alone in her new bedroom (i added that part). I can confirm I hear her listening to this music and audiobooks she talks about. So there she is completely naked playing me all this music and showing me her phone to see the artists without seeming to be concerned about a message coming through or anything. Overall, she was acting really nice. She even said she had a good day and was in a good mood and had slept really well. No complaining about work.

She has been telling me about a new assignment and how she might have to leave for a few days in the coming year for exercises. But doesn't know when, only the months. The first one sounds like it will be within a month. Suddenly, it's not so convenient not to have a spouse home for the dogs. I do not know if she is accepting that she cannot force me to leave or if she has any uncertainty about it, or if she will come back demanding it again tomorrow.

My IC says I should give her choices, to make her feel less trapped, and she can be the one to choose. First choice is try to work things out, at least go to counseling and find a mutual agreement to R or D. Second, if she says no to one, then agree to D and I won't fight her on the house if she agrees to me not moving out until I graduate in May. Third, if she cannot accept anything other than immediate separation, then she is the one to leave. I mostly agree with my IC that there is no real way W can make me leave any time soon. In answer to one of Sandi's questions, W has an obligation to support her dependents and gets paid more to do so. IC says D takes 3 months, I assume this is after you file. If W wants no lawyers, she will have to do all the work of filling out the paperwork first and itemizing everything. And I know it is often rejected for silly revisions that must be made to form. So by the time we are even D, it will probably be pretty close to me graduating. Of course, W only cares about her emotions, and wants me to vanish overnight, that is all she will accept. What I do not agree with IC on, is presenting her with these choices, at least right now. Mostly because it seems to violate DB. If she is in this fantasy world, where nothing logical matters, what good are the choices. IC also said I should make it clear I am not dating someone. I am not going to try and pretend I am or anything, but I think it is beneficial for W to be unsure what I am doing or if I am still even wanting R. Rather than offer her reassurance. You guys can tell me what you think, but considering I agree with Sandi that I need to just stop hanging onto the MR, it really makes no sense.

W seems content with her new living situation in the basement, wants to cook but not eat together, and spends most of her time at home in her room with the door closed. However, she doesn't have any curtains and I can see in her window if I am in the yard with the dogs. It seems she just lays there watching tv and going to sleep really early (she does get up really early). But 99% of the time, I am not watching so who knows. If she is not harassing me, or trying to make things miserable, this is definitely more comfortable than being displaced to my grandmother's. But emotionally, I know detachment will be a lot harder. But I am serious about what I said earlier on forgetting about working on the MR and caring what W thinks or does. I am not going to be afraid anymore. I envision my new life without her everyday and what I want it to look like, and approach everything with that goal in mind. It is exciting to be able to have full control over your future. On my way out the door, my IC said "You know, the holidays are almost here, who really wants to get divorced over the holidays?". I guess W can prove how much of a grinch she really is. She even likes to say that she doesn't like Christmas. But I just don't buy it. I don't buy any of it. I have realized I am more of a saver than I thought. I feel so much desperation to rescue W from her sadness and hurt and bad choices. I know that I cannot. But I really think she's in there somewhere, and is worth saving. So I have to work constantly to change that mindset.

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 114
4
Member
OP Offline
Member
4
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 114
OMG, did I mention this rollercoaster is on whiplash mode. Nicer than anything yesterday, today she comes home, finds out about my GAL, launches into is this why I'm refusing to leave? Then asks if I know that she will owe me a year of alimony and support. So I will have that. I said good to know. Then, I know I messed up, I let her lure me into a fight. I was not emotional, but I shouldn't have even gotten into it.

She said it's so ridiculous that I won't leave. That any normal person would leave. Says AGAIN that I have family I can go too. I told her what IS ridiculous is her telling me this is HER house after 6 months of it being OURS. Of course, she threatened I would pay the mortgage starting Nov 1. She said all she owes me is the difference in her pay for the single vs dependent. She has clearly done some homework. She is unwilling to have any real discussion. It is only about forcing me out. She said she will get it done as fast as possible then, and slammed her door.

I am so lost. Maybe I should just leave her to her misery. Clearly the MR is dead. But I feel like I lose either way. My mom said I can come stay on her couch in her apartment. But living like that until May is going to be miserable. I feel hurt but W and I'm so mad about it. It made me feel really low for her tell me that any normal person would leave.

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,799
Likes: 13
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,799
Likes: 13
Let her go.

As you said, she has done her homework and has been thinking about this for quite some time. Your best and only option is to get out of her way. To her, you equate to every negative emotion she’s been experiencing. She thinks that by getting away from you, she will be happy again. Let her have at it.

Here’s the thing though, I think there’s a lot of underlying factors for your W that have nothing to do with you. She has some demons, 44. You didn’t break her, and you can’t fix her.

Your best bet is to detach as much as possible and protect yourself legally. Clearly she’s consulted with a lawyer, I would suggest you start interviewing lawyers as well. I would not put it past your W to try and trick you into giving up some of your legal rights. She might even dangle reconciliation in your face to get you to agree to some things that would benefit her.

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 114
4
Member
OP Offline
Member
4
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 114
Thanks, T. I know you are right. She said she did not talk to a lawyer, just read some things online.

Last night it became so clear to me what this really was--manipulation. She wouldn't have said any of this if it weren't for my GAL. She didn't like it and started up her antics. I can't believe I almost fell for it, too. I went back to getting ready, feeling like crap, considering no longer wanting to go, wondering if I should go down and talk to her, maybe propose I could work part time and we could work together to afford another place. OMG! That is exactly what she wanted! Me feeling distraught, cancelling my GAL, and coming to her to negotiate things on her terms. The good news is I did NOT fall for it and I am seeing all these things more clearly.

To top it off, one of her main points in assaulting my GAL last night was drilling me on how late I would be out. She said she had to be at work for some special thing at 5am and didn't want to be woken up by the dogs barking if I came home late. I told her it isn't a concern. That's when she decided to make it about the D. Well, it turns out this morning that she left just after 6, which is right at her normal time! Apparently, she made the whole thing up.

I had a great time GAL. I am breaking free.

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,666
Likes: 1
whistle


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Page 2 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard