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A Message from Michele
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Re: A year on and standing [Re: ToSmile] #2868562
10/17/19 11:36 AM
10/17/19 11:36 AM
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I'm not sure how you could have validated that, sounds like she was just looking for an excuse to start a fight. Overall you did well not letting things escalate.

Sometimes WAS's will bait the LBS constantly to create tension, it's their way of convincing themselves that leaving the M is the "right" thing to do (especially if the LBS lets themselves get pulled into fights).

Early on my XW treated me pretty poorly, and then at one point she actually came to me and explained she had done it to "help me move on" but felt bad because I wasn't reciprocating. So she said she wasn't going to do it anymore. And she didn't after that. So yes, they do sometimes do it intentionally to drive us away.


Me: 58 w/ S16, D22, D25
Current R: 4 years
Previous M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:56
Re: A year on and standing [Re: ToSmile] #2868724
10/18/19 05:51 AM
10/18/19 05:51 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 45
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ToSmile Offline OP
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Hi AnotherStander,

I get the baiting part. Always remind myself not to be caught by it. She used to be a just let it slide off her back kind of person but during the eve before the BD, she did ever mentioned that she does not wish to let things go anymore and she would like to voice out her opinion. Then she was referring to about kids squashing chocolate bars at supermarkets or inconsiderate actions by others, she would want to to voice out on them. But I noted it evolved into more of verbal conviction of other's action to justify/satisfy her moral beliefs.

On Saturday, I joined her and the kids for lunch but I was late from work and they were at the restaurant and ordered the food first. They each got a set meal and when I reached, I ordered mine through the tablet and it was processed electronically. After a while, their food came first as their order were processed earlier. Then my wife mentioned that they might not be able to finish their portion and perhaps I should share with them. I told her sure, then I asked the restaurant manager over and told her I wish to cancel my order. The restaurant manager acknowledged and walked away.

After a while, I checked through the ordering tablet and saw my order in the bill still. Thus, I asked the restaurant manager over and enquire about why my order had not been cancelled? The restaurant manager just mentioned oh, she thought I was trying to verify with her if my order had been successfully keyed in, instead of a cancellation request. Then the restaurant manager run to the kitchen to check but it was too late. They have started preparing the order. Then the restaurant manager came back and reiterate that she thought it was trying to ask her if the order had been taken in and the food had been prepared. Although she never apologize and the service wasn't really that good in this manner, I just let it slide as I thought I was the one who ordered and wished to cancel it later and after all, its a miscommunication. Why ruined the lunch together for that?

After the restaurant manager left our table, my wife mentioned that its she who heard wrongly. I told her I know. But looking at her reply and attitude, it does not seems that she is intending to apologize also thus just let it slide. No point holding on to it. Then my wife tried to bait me by saying "Well, her attitude is just like someone". I just let it slide and pretend I never hear that.

Next, my order was served to me and to my surprised, my wife had not let it slide. She confronted the Restaurant manager again saying earlier, it's she who heard my request wrongly. Then the restaurant manager starts to get defensive again saying she thought I was trying to confirm my order. Then, I just told them yes, my request was to cancel the order. The restaurant manager did not catch it but it's ok. Just let it go and it's a miscommunication.

Normally, I will refer to how a person treat a service staff as a yardstick of character and it is really disturbing that why she is biting so hard into such a matter. Following that, my wife started to mentioned that one of the kid's order should be free as one kid dine free with 2 paying adults when they order kids meal. Then she start to go through the bill again and upon seeing the kids order on the invoice, starts calling the restaurant manager over again asking why the kids order are being charged? The restaurant manager then advice her that it because the kids ordered other meals than the kids meal. Thus its being charge.

Next, she turned to the children and was about to cast the responsibility onto them but I just intersected. I mentioned they are just kids and when you pass the ordering tablet to them, how would they know which item are on promotion and which are not? After they order, we should check through before confirming. Then she just kept quiet.

It was really a tiring lunch though I hope to be there for and with the kids. I just feel like she's like a piranha, trying to chew onto something always and challenge it and prove her point, to please or comfort some internal beliefs or what. Or maybe trying to make up to how she could have reacted to past situations in her life which she have not done so then but spamming it on everyone now?


M:38 W:38
T:14 M: 12
S:9 S:6
BD: 07/18
W Moved out: 5/19
W Moved in: 7/19
D draft received: 12/19
Re: A year on and standing [Re: ToSmile] #2868731
10/18/19 11:47 AM
10/18/19 11:47 AM
Joined: Feb 2018
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One thing that always stands out to me from Sandi's advice is "she's no longer the girl you married". Sometimes that girl is gone for good. I've noticed that since my wife went through her WW period, she's not as compassionate as she used to be. She's much more blunt and direct, without the same level of caution and regard for the feelings of others. I think this may be a permanent change in her personality. I do miss the fact that she was so considerate before, but I can't change that or her. It does make for some uncomfortable moments.

Anyway, just deal with it when you have to as best you can. It sounds like you handled it pretty well.


M(50), W(51),D(15)
M-20, T-22 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Re: A year on and standing [Re: ToSmile] #2868733
10/18/19 12:42 PM
10/18/19 12:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
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Originally Posted by ToSmile
It was really a tiring lunch though I hope to be there for and with the kids. I just feel like she's like a piranha, trying to chew onto something always and challenge it and prove her point, to please or comfort some internal beliefs or what. Or maybe trying to make up to how she could have reacted to past situations in her life which she have not done so then but spamming it on everyone now?


OK so let me say as an impartial observer this is what I am seeing here- you and your W go out to lunch, there is a miscommunication that IS THE MANAGER'S FAULT and your W chooses to confront the manager while you would rather not. The manager acknowledges the misunderstanding but refuses to do anything about it, which is WRONG. Your W continues to press the manager while you basically try to get her to back off and just ignore the problem. So my take? Your W was 100% correct in demanding the manager do something, and you did not support your wife in her efforts to seek reparation. What message do you think that sends to her? Now you might think this is a minor incident, and you would be right, but all these little incidences over years and years add up for the WAS until they reach the breaking point.

Have you read No More Mister Nice Guy? It's a good companion read to DR and we suggest it a lot after reading DR. It's not what the title sounds like, it addresses "nice guy syndrome" (NGS) and how outwardly "nice" guys tend to act in very passive/aggressive ways that are very damaging to their relationships. Most guys here aren't full blown nice guys but can identify with at least some of what they read. This example you gave of this interaction at the restaurant definitely smacks of NGS.


Me: 58 w/ S16, D22, D25
Current R: 4 years
Previous M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:56
Re: A year on and standing [Re: ToSmile] #2868807
10/18/19 08:13 PM
10/18/19 08:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 161
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may22 Offline
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To follow on with AS... my H and I have the same dynamic (though opposite gender) where he's the one to get ridiculously angry with people who take to long to park and servers who screw up orders and can't/won't acknowledge their mistake. This was a long, LONG time area of contention for us because I felt like (a) NBD chill and (b) let's not make a scene, especially in front of the kids. So the other day we were driving and a car in front of us did a few annoying things... not really all that big of a deal but my H got heated and honked once. The car pulls up alongside of us and the lady rolls down her window and starts shouting. What I would have done previously is try to calm my H and get angry with him for causing the sitch. This time I did nothing and validated him for being annoyed, and when the lady went off the rails and I was totally on his side that her behavior was unacceptable. We kept driving, he was quiet for awhile... and then he said to me out of nowhere what he thought he could have done better, and that he probably shouldn't have engaged at all with the kids in the car. I was blown away. This was probably the most stark example of it, but since I've stopped responding when he starts to get road rage, it has completely simmered down to the point where he says something off-hand when encountering a bad driver but the anger that used to be behind it is nearly gone.

I know my sitch is not the same as yours BUT I agree with AS that maybe these are opportunities for 180s for you in these kinds of sitches. She's spinning out of control and maybe you're feeding that somewhat with your actions in those situations.


Me (44) H (40)
M:12 T:16
D7 and D9
DB1 ILYB: April 2019
DB2 H told me about EA: August 2019 (started Jan 2019)
Re: A year on and standing [Re: ToSmile] #2868946
10/21/19 07:02 AM
10/21/19 07:02 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 45
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ToSmile Offline OP
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Hi AS and May,

Thanks for pointing out from another perspective which I have failed to notice. I do note that it is the Manager's fault in this manner and agreed with my wife that it's the manager's fault on missing out on my request, though I chose to take the stand not to pursue further as I thought it's a small matter and just leave and let live. In fact, when the manager came over for the first time, I did tell her that my request is to cancel the order and she's wrong. Just thought that the episode was over but surprised my wife was still holding on to it. Perhaps its like those quarrels we had which after it was over, I thought things were fine but in fact they are not and I never noticed.

This could be like what AS said, built up and accumulated over the years that contributed to the triggering as well. Will look up on the Mr. Nice guy portion and read on it and perhaps the next time, just be more assertive?


M:38 W:38
T:14 M: 12
S:9 S:6
BD: 07/18
W Moved out: 5/19
W Moved in: 7/19
D draft received: 12/19
Re: A year on and standing [Re: may22] #2869088
10/22/19 01:32 AM
10/22/19 01:32 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 45
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ToSmile Offline OP
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Originally Posted by may22
To follow on with AS... my H and I have the same dynamic (though opposite gender) where he's the one to get ridiculously angry with people who take to long to park and servers who screw up orders and can't/won't acknowledge their mistake. This was a long, LONG time area of contention for us because I felt like (a) NBD chill and (b) let's not make a scene, especially in front of the kids. So the other day we were driving and a car in front of us did a few annoying things... not really all that big of a deal but my H got heated and honked once. The car pulls up alongside of us and the lady rolls down her window and starts shouting. What I would have done previously is try to calm my H and get angry with him for causing the sitch. This time I did nothing and validated him for being annoyed, and when the lady went off the rails and I was totally on his side that her behavior was unacceptable. We kept driving, he was quiet for awhile... and then he said to me out of nowhere what he thought he could have done better, and that he probably shouldn't have engaged at all with the kids in the car. I was blown away. This was probably the most stark example of it, but since I've stopped responding when he starts to get road rage, it has completely simmered down to the point where he says something off-hand when encountering a bad driver but the anger that used to be behind it is nearly gone.

I know my sitch is not the same as yours BUT I agree with AS that maybe these are opportunities for 180s for you in these kinds of sitches. She's spinning out of control and maybe you're feeding that somewhat with your actions in those situations.



Hi may22,

By the way this scenario sounds like me in the past and my wife was assuming your role. But somehow or rather nowadays, I noticed that we have swapped our roles. I becoming whom she was while she becoming whom I were for certain instances.


M:38 W:38
T:14 M: 12
S:9 S:6
BD: 07/18
W Moved out: 5/19
W Moved in: 7/19
D draft received: 12/19
Re: A year on and standing [Re: ToSmile] #2869235
10/22/19 10:43 PM
10/22/19 10:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 161
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Hi TS,

That is really interesting and congratulations-- that is probably a pretty major 180 for you. And I can say that I could imagine if I was in your wife's shoes, your calmness when I'm feeling out of control might be infuriating... but from a DB perspective maybe in a good way as it shows she's registering your 180. If that is the case, maybe continuing on your path of calmness and 180s is actually the better route than backing her up-- you are definitely the best judge of that.

But if I could make a tiny suggestion:

Originally Posted by ToSmile
After the restaurant manager left our table, my wife mentioned that its she who heard wrongly. I told her I know. But looking at her reply and attitude, it does not seems that she is intending to apologize also thus just let it slide. No point holding on to it. Then my wife tried to bait me by saying "Well, her attitude is just like someone". I just let it slide and pretend I never hear that.


maybe instead of the "let it slide" elaboration you could have left it at "I know"? Validating and then staying out of it might help to *not* fan her flames? Being told to calm down and let it go when you're spoiling for a fight is like pouring gasoline on a fire (I've totally been there). Though of course you were right to step in when she was turning on the kids.

I used to think that the kids seeing their dad being an a**hole and me letting it slide was detrimental to them and so I called out his behavior every time. Now I just validate and generally stay out of it and not only does it happen way less frequently but it generally peters out very quickly after one comment rather than escalating. And, I'm not letting him use me as a foil for his anger and confusion.


Me (44) H (40)
M:12 T:16
D7 and D9
DB1 ILYB: April 2019
DB2 H told me about EA: August 2019 (started Jan 2019)
Re: A year on and standing [Re: ToSmile] #2869792
10/29/19 04:35 AM
10/29/19 04:35 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 45
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ToSmile Offline OP
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A weekend which I was trying to keep my cool.

Saturday night we were out having a dinner with her family and extended family for her Aunt's birthday celebration. But through the dinner, she was impatient because she had arranged a Halloween party later with her friends and she wanted to go back to get her make up done as she was trying to dress up as some ghost. Earlier, before we attended the dinner, I gave her some tips on how to dress up for the party and she liked it. But as we were leaving the dinner place, she started showing her temper for whichever slight delay that occurs along our way back.

Got home and after the kids slept, she went ahead with her prep and left the house. She returned around 5 plus am in the morning and I was woken up by her coming into the room and also by a shoulder sprain that I had. As usual, she slept on my younger boy's bed which was a mattress on the ground next to our bed. After a while, she started texting discreetly lying down at the blanket.

I do not know if it was due to her past EA that I experienced and when I saw this, I just told her that she does not need to text so discreetly.. Was it another guy or what is the bunch of students that she used to hang out with? She mentioned no. She is just texting "Them" that she is back home safely. I asked her if it was other man? She mentioned no again. Then she tried to give an excused that she had fallen asleep and the phone slide off onto the bed. I told her, just tell me the truth. I saw her texting. She went quiet. Then I said, well if there's other guys, its ok. The kids and I will just proceed with the separation plan and I will wait for her Divorce paper (She mentioned she had proceed with the divorce papers with her lawyer since August but till date, My Lawyer and I have not received any notification or anything).

Then she said she went out with XXX and YYY (XXX husband commits infidelity and she stayed because he is rich and YYY divorced her husband as he was living off her and the 3 of them were like the 3 musketeers sharing their marriage misery). After that, I just leave it as it is and she drifted off to sleep. In the late morning, she woken up for the restroom and I asked her how she like her lunch to be done as I was cooking for the whole family and she replied me in a normal tone. Then before I left the room, she asked me why did I react in that manner whenever she went out and came back.

I told her, for the previous episode, she went out for the entire night and only came back in the morning without informing. And for this morning episode, I saw her messaging discreetly like how she was behaving when she had her EA. Thus, I am making my stand. Next, she starts to say that the divorce paper is already in process and we should know our role. I told her yes, I know that but as long as the papers are not signed, I am still her husband and she is still my wife and she has to respect that status.

Next, I mentioned to her the following but before I said, I told her that what I was going to say is not something that I wish to change her mind about the divorce she is seeking after but what I feel I have to say. I told her that it would be tough for me to be her "Friend" once we are divorced because, I don't think it is right for me to downgrade my status from a husband to be her friend just to make her happy and feel good. Then she said she acknowledged that. Then I told her, she had been complaining about her health is not that good and getting angry when others told her she looks pale and frail. But in all honesty even as a friend, has she reviewed about her own lifestyle?

When at home, she was sleeping away the entire day, skipping and missing meals. then at night, she will go out till the wee hours. And during the day time when the kids ask for her and awaken her to join them for activities, she would be so edgy and bad tempered due to lack of rest. Basically she was a shadow of her past. Then she started to divert the topic and start to mention that she felt she is in good health and she is ok. Then she starts talking about the kids saying she had sought advice from various parents how to manage them best at their age etc.

I told her I felt glad that you are taking reference from the others on their opinion and advises. If you might have done the same for your marriage from those successful couples. She started to defend herself saying she did and quoted a few couples which I thought they are of very different demographics (Her 3 musketeer clique or problematic and partying creature couples without kids). Then she started saying that everyone of them are having problems also but yeah. Her feelings for me is dead and its over and she started feeling like this 9 years ago. And I am only in this pain for 2 years only and I feel this way.

I laughed and told her that I though you mentioned that you were killing your feelings for me since 2 years ago but now it became 9 years? Did you upgrade your count because I am also graduating at the 2 years mark? Then she said her feelings had started to fade 9 years ago thus since 2 years ago she made up her mind to kill it off totally and now she totally has no feelings for me. Only possibility if only, is after the divorce and everything would have to start all over again.

I told her that I acknowledged that in the past, we have our own issues and we grow from it. In marriage, those that last, are those that have their marriage goal and getting through it together. I asked her why she got married and whats her marriage goal? She mentioned she got married to be happy and her goal was to grow old together and do the things we like to do. I told her there bound to be challenges and its how we overcome it. And happiness is what we achieve ourselves, not depending on others to give. I just be frank about it to her that it was not all roses when we were married and I too had my down times but I looked at the greater picture and aiming to move on together.

She said she does not want to scarifies like her mum for the kids and if she feel she is unhappy, she should just walk away. I told her that's her escapist way of handling matter which our counselor also feel so because that is her beliefs in marriage that she experienced from her parents. While for me, I believe in working it through. Then she said well it's too late and her heart has died. Thats why she don't want to hurt herself anymore and she want to be happy. And she cannot imagine how I will be when I receive her letters if I am sad in the way I am now.

I told her I am sad because of the wonderful future I thought we could have together but ain't going to happen. Many great things happened in our marriage as well but it's just unfortunate that they were not remembered and recognized than the other stuffs. But one thing I know is I do not need her to be worried about me because I will be moving on to be a even greater person than I was before and now as I want to set a great example for the kids. She then said that's great. I told her if her opinion is to proceed with the divorce, then when the paper is here I will sign but the kids and I will live great. Then she said that well, She and the kids will be great as well for I am just the primary caregiver of them. She will also be very happy with them.

Then I told her that well, it's just a pity that things has to be in this way. At this point in time, the kids came into the room and mentioned they are hungry and I stop the conversation with her and proceed to cook for them. Later through the day, we carried on our activities with the kids as if nothing happened and also visited my mother at the hospital together and she prepared for my mum a small gift.

I do notice that she seemed slightly lost the whole day after the incident but I do not know if it is due to that she lack sleep or from the outcome of our exchange.

I frankly do not know how I have handle the above situation. It does not hurt me as much as previously probably as I am detaching but I still do feel sad. Recently at times, I thought that she seems to be better and starts making plans to improve things at home, bringing back new cpu for the kids and etc but well it seems the light is still so far away if any. At times, I still hope to treat the part on the processing of divorce paper as 50% truth of what she said and only wait for the real action for it's coming to 3 months and I have not heard anything from the layers. But I have to prepare myself if it really does happen.

Any comments and opinion for me on the above?


M:38 W:38
T:14 M: 12
S:9 S:6
BD: 07/18
W Moved out: 5/19
W Moved in: 7/19
D draft received: 12/19
Re: A year on and standing [Re: ToSmile] #2869805
10/29/19 11:45 AM
10/29/19 11:45 AM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 7,581
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AnotherStander Offline
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Originally Posted by ToSmile
I frankly do not know how I have handle the above situation.


It was an R talk and surely you've read enough here and in Michele's books to know that R talks are a BAD IDEA. R talks are pressure, and the WAS wants zero pressure. Plus she's just spouting the usual WAS nonsense, rewriting history and such. It doesn't mean a thing, it's just a reflection of her current WAS-fogged mindset. It's like asking someone that just had surgery to describe their thoughts on War and Peace when they're still foggy from anesthetic.

Regarding her health and parenting, you can't fix her. Right now she's engaging in GGW activities and nothing else matters to her. At some point she will hit rock bottom but that could be months away. All you can do is remove yourself from the equation. Get out, GAL, leave her to the mess she's making. Quit asking about who she's texting and why. Quit asking about the M. Quit asking about S and D unless you want to pursue it yourself.


Me: 58 w/ S16, D22, D25
Current R: 4 years
Previous M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:56
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