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Gerda Offline OP
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Sam! I loved this post, everything about it. First of all, this is the longest post you ever wrote to me, it was chock-full-o-thoughts and all were really valuable and helpful. Also I loved how you said what you said. You really know how to measure your words, and your kindness is just beaming through all your words -- I can see exactly why you felt moved to write these things, and I totally hear you on all counts. I am glad you understand the complexity of what to tell the kids. Sometimes I feel this desire to tell all, but I can tell it's not coming from a pure place so I have tried not to. I am sure I say more than I should, but I have thought a lot about something someone wrote to me here, that I did have the right and indeed the duty to share my values with my kids and to try to transmit them. With that as a goal, it seems easier to know what to say and when. But like you, I think it's probably best to wait until it's really clear that they are either asking or need to know. I did sort of lie about it when they asked in the past, and I kind of regret that now, but maybe it was the right thing at the time. I still don't want to tell them I had cancer; they are still rather attached to me as I am literally the only consistent grown-up in their lives, the only one who has loved them consistently via words and action. I feel like they have this psychologically-rooted fear of losing me, just as a sort of background noise in their lives, and I don't want to worry them further when it doesn't really help them to know it. Sometimes I want to tell them because I want something in return -- obedience, appreciation, etc -- and I know that that also is not coming from a pure place so I haven't acted on it.

About the dating -- That sounds like a hard situation to be in, I mean because you can see intellectually how much you like her for all the right reasons. As a woman, I am trying to think of what I would think if I were her. It's a tough one. I would not believe you that you hadn't healed yet. I would think it was because of me. But via my perspective as a stander and a person of faith, I think it might not be possible to heal enough to be all in. The one-flesh is always gonna be one-flesh. If you've decided you are never going to go back even if your exW wants you back, then I think it's more a matter of accepting that. I actually see it as a positive thing. I think it's good that you were that committed to your W that there is a piece of your heart that will always be off limits to anyone else. If this woman is the right woman for you, I think she would have to understand that. I meant to write about this on your thread and forgot, maybe I will go over there to say what I was going to say.

But as for me, I am not planning to date or work on a relationship, don't worry. I don't see it as waiting for healing, for myself. There is the one-marriage-til-death issue, of course. But also I don't want that life of blended family or to bring that into my kids' life. I only contemplate something a little darker, honestly -- based, as DnJ always says, on feelings and not beliefs! If I am going to do something that fits in with my beliefs, it would be to do nothing until God makes it clear that I should stay single or that I should annul my marriage. I don't see myself doing that but time -- or God! -- will tell.

Thank you so much, seriously, for taking the time to write all that. Very very helpful and just always so great to hear from you. And my invitation still stands for next time you and your kids are heading northeast!

Last edited by Gerda; 10/12/19 06:10 AM.

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Good Morning Gerda

It is nice to hear how clear and accurate you are, and that you know you are.

Also the going a thousand miles on fumes is a good description. So, what (or who or where - I’m not wanting to limit you smile ) refills your tank?

Originally Posted by Gerda
Do you still love her?

Yes.

And in truth, I love her more now than probably ever before.

Love is strange. And is not enough.

I did hang on very tightly and had to let go for my own sanity. I had a lot of despair and desperate love pains. Lovingly letting go, freeing someone to let them figure out their path, ahhhh that feels good. That is peaceful.

Loving someone else, as you said, I know I can do that. My heart is big enough, and healed enough.

The obedience to vows, the possible limitations to ones life. Yep, things to reconcile within yourself.

If it helps, from the heart and mind of DnJ, there is no right or wrong here, just your perceptions. Perhaps you are adjusting them. Perhaps they require adjustment. My certainly did.

Originally Posted by Gerda
There is some part of me that feels very strongly that once I let my kids see me love someone else, the game is up. I don't ever want to do that. I hated seeing that as a child.

Hate is a really strong and powerful emotion and response. Your strong feelings regarding what could happen if your kids see you love someone else. Sounds a lot like a emotionally based response - a fear.

Do not make decisions based on feelings and emotions. Follow your beliefs and values.

Beliefs are a force within you. They include thought and emotions, and are beyond them, something more. You can have a belief based on fear and hatred, but I am pretty sure you would rather not.

To be clear, I am not admonishing you in the least. I am suggesting you look into this value, this belief, and find the hidden deep reason behind it. The belief won’t change (maybe) but the reason for it, will. And then so will you. And your perceptions.

Originally Posted by Gerda
OK, so what do you think is an age appropriate way to tell a 10-year old?

To start with: D10, I love you and I still love your father, even though at times he really bugs me.

I think Dad is really hurting inside and is feeling a lot of emotional pain. It kind of explains some of his behaviour and what is going on. (I would suspect questions and observations will arise about his inner pain, his behaviour, his leaving you, and so on)

(Explain his MLC as just that)

I believe something happened from Dad’s childhood, something traumatic, and it hurt him deeply. He was young and didn’t know how to handle or cope with it. He has no one to ask questions too, or he didn’t want too. So he just ignored it. Unfortunately when we get older sometimes these old wounds open up and surface. And they really hurt, so people try to outrun the pain. Of course you really can’t, but Dad doesn’t see that right now.

I have a really good friend, his name is DnJ, and his wife did something similar as Dad did. He explained to his kids and younger nephew and niece that this is kind of like a broken arm, except it is the mind. Just like the arm, it is broken, and it is very serious. It causes extreme pain, and your arm can’t work correctly.

Unfortunately Dad doesn’t see, or doesn’t want to see, how broken his mind is. And unlike an arm, one’s self really cannot see it is broken. Just think about that, your mind tells you what’s wrong - but what if your mind is wrong? Hmmmm.

So, I and you still love Dad. It is ok to be kind to him, and be compassionate to his suffering. It is also ok, to feel angry at him sometimes as well. Or any other feelings. In time things will settle, and you and Dad will find a balance. Ha, even Dad and I will find a balance.

You know Dad and I are getting a divorce. Dad has other plans at the moment. You’ve met his GF and married people don’t have serious Mom & Dad type relationships with other people.

- - - -

That is just some ideas, I did consider writing your daughter a letter, like I did your son. I can if you would like me to supplement your approach to this. It is up to you.

Gerda, this is hard stuff, figuring out what to tell our children. Look to the end goal here. Do you want D10 (think D18 or further) to hate Dad’s GF? To really harbour a deep grudge towards this woman? Or Dad? Of course not. And neither do you.

We as the sane stable parent do everything in our power to be the rock for our children. To prevent this from have a devastating affect on their future - something I completely believe is possible. This is more than just words, it is actions, and it is choices. It is leading with example and grace and light.

And sometimes a change of perceptions is required.

DnJ


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First of all, thank you so much for the post, awesome as usual. I have in fact said something like most of what you advised already, with D10. I have been saying a lot of that for years now. And thank you for offering to write to her, I will think about when that could work and let you know. Very very kind of you. But really it's just the adultery part I didn't know how to say. But this week that woman was AGAIN at H's very limited time with D, and she was going on and on about how nice she is and how her kids are in Sunday School and I almost passed out, so I did finally tell her the truth. She was not able to take it in very well, she said, "Papa cheated on you?!" but then switched the topic. I haven't told S14 because he doesn't see H anyway, or talk to him, so I am not sure there is any purpose right now other than a dark side of myself wanting vindication.

I haven't written back to your excellently long and thoughtful post partly because I am drowning in work and had to do massive prep to rent out my apartment for this week. (My aunt was going to be out of town and I was so desperate for money, we live in a place where this is easy to do, lots of tourists.)

But partly because I realized that there might be something about me that you will not understand and it seemed daunting to explain it.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Look to the end goal here. Do you want D10 (think D18 or further) to hate Dad’s GF? To really harbour a deep grudge towards this woman? Or Dad? Of course not. And neither do you.

Because yes, I do want D to hate that GF. Depending on what you mean by hate. Not the kind of hate that consumes, like that song, "I live in my enemy's head rent-free." Not that she would not practice forgiveness. But I do not want her to have relationship with someone that immoral -- and I consider it dangerous to my daughter's emotional and moral development when she is forced to hang out with someone who is that immoral as to actively have an affair with a married man for years, including when his wife had cancer and was clearly standing for her marriage. That woman was eating in our family business (literally, a restaurant) and interacting with my staff when I was out of town, was probably in my bed at the same time. A new GF is one thing. This particular person is another. So yes, I want D to hate all that that woman represents. I want her to mistrust her and never show her a piece of her precious heart. I want her to reject outright that kind of person. I want her to pray that she goes back to her own husband and not break up another family.

And I don't see that as a bad thing, to believe that. I see that as a good thing.

You are always asking about my beliefs, and here is the thing -- my belief is that marriage is a commitment til death. My circumstances therefore are a real test of that belief. My belief has not and will not change. Will God forgive me for doing otherwise? Yes, of course. Even if I start sleeping around, He will forgive me. The question is how do I live in order to be all that God intended? How do I get closer to God? Catholicism offers me a way out of this conundrum -- annulment. But to me this is just a legalistic way to undo my belief. One day I might do some or all of these things that go against my belief.

My spiritual father wrote to me with his usual astonishing wisdom/love, and I will include a clip here to say it much better than I can. But I think the point is that this feeling of dying and all the pain we feel (or you more in past tense) are natural. They are the consequence of my belief. If I change my belief maybe the pain will be less. But that is not possible for me. I am instead focusing on accepting the "death" that Fr describes below, the grain of wheat, lil' Gerda.

You have to distinguish two levels of our life: the natural (psychological, social, legal...) and the spiritual (soul, God, gospel...) It is absolutely normal that you feel to protect your daughter (the best thing you have in life as a mother) from the intrusion of the other woman. It is important for you as a mother to keep the relationship close to you as mother/daughter. So it is normal that you have all those feelings. (Look for instance any mother-animal would be very aggressive and would kill in order to defend her offsprings). So naturally you are reacting as any good mother.
Spiritually you have the the faith to overcome all this and raise your spirit to another level, which is the level of Christ. You say that you feel that you are dying; and that is really what is happening; your motherhood is dying, not in a natural way but because the intrusion of this woman. If the grain of wheat does not die, it will not bring new life.

So what can you do? BE STRONG! The truth will come out; your daughter for now is finding something new, that she did not have before; but there is only one mother, and some day she will realize that the love of a mother can come only from a mother.
I think you are right to let her know that what that woman is doing is wrong, but at the same time you should show that you are above any jealousy or vendetta. You can show her that God gives us the capability to forgive even the worst injustices; and that she can always count on HER MOM.

Last edited by Gerda; 10/20/19 07:06 PM.

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I take back part of that. I have never explained it as well to D10 as you do in this letter. On the other hand, I am not you. I am the mom she ended up with. I made mistakes and I will never know if I chose rightly each step of the way, but at least I can be sure that she saw me keep choosing to love.


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Good Morning Gerda

Originally Posted by Gerda
I made mistakes and I will never know if I chose rightly each step of the way, but at least I can be sure that she saw me keep choosing to love.

I have made mistakes along my path as well, we all have.

You are a great loving Mother. One who cares enough to listen to other views, and does the best for her kids. Son and daughter recognize it, and someday, when they really “see”, they will be amazed at what you did for them.

I do understand the dark side, the hatred you want your daughter to feel towards OW/GF. The wanting for her to reject that immoral behaviour and ideals. These two things need not go together. They are two separate things.

Daughter can reject that immoral path, without hating it. To walk in the light, one needs to understand and accept the dark. We all carry both within ourselves. Hating the dark, and one hates a part of themselves.

Your belief in marriage and vows, I do share. I too thought about annulment and figure it is just a loophole; also what happen to the children’s status if marriage is nulled. I didn’t look further into it as I decided not to go there.

I empathize with you and had/have similar internal battles. As too why is this such a conundrum. Here is my take on it, and I wrestled with it until a light bulb moment happened.

I didn’t want to get divorced. I want to keep my word, my vows. But, to keep them, I had to consign myself to living alone, and being lonely. I would unwillingly have to follow God’s will, because I am suppose to. And then I’ll be alone, and no other relationship, living out my days in a big old house all by myself, etc, etc, etc...

<click>

It’s all about control and lack of control.

When forced to do something against our will, we rebel and don’t like it.

Having to keep my vow because God says so, or the bible does, or my vows said so.... What a minute. I want to keep my word. So keep my word because I want too. Not because I have to. Because I want to. Well that certainly turn this upside down.

So keep your word until you want to change it. I control me.

Originally Posted by Gerda
...my belief is that marriage is a commitment til death.

I hear you. I understand that belief. And til death is a very long time, hopefully. Don’t need to look that far ahead. I know I was, with all my predicting of my future. Just look, say, to next week.

Be gentle on yourself my dear friend. Answers present themselves when we are at peace, and when we least expect them.

Acceptance and forgiveness.

I had to accept something I didn’t want too. And forgive the hardest person to forgive.

I accepted that I can change my belief of my vows. And I had to forgive me for realizing that I could.

Now, I am internally exploring my belief of this. It is no longer carved in stone. I may end up altering it, or perhaps strengthen it even further.

I was willing to die for a belief. Now, I live for a belief.

I like what your spiritual father said. Much like the grain of wheat, we do somewhat die, and from that such incredible grown can happen.

Be strong Gerda. (((Hugs))) This is one of those hard earned moments. Man oh man, there are too many of those our paths.

DnJ


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DnJ, I am glad you wrote to me today, it was good to "see" you. I read your post and will have to mull over it a bit. We may be saying the same thing or we may be saying the opposite, I am not sure. I agree that feeling forced to miserably accept a "directive" from God is a path to disaster. I imagine our MLCers felt this way somehow. But I also think that there can be great freedom in surrendering one's will to what you don't want to do, I think that's why those things are in the bible, as God knew we would not want to do those things so He lays it out for our benefit, just like I lay out for my kids that they should not eat ice cream for every meal. Or that they should not lie or steal, and why, etc.

I have certainly found that to be true for many things, and it is the reason I am still standing.

I just don't know about the current discomfort. And lately everyone around me is telling me that I missed the signs, that H must always have been like this, that this was always in him, etc. Some friends will say things like, "Well, he was always lazy compared to you, you were always the one doing all the work at the business," etc. Or talking about how there was always some part of him that was unreachable or various other things that seemed to others like a sign of something simmering. I am also reading a book about divorcing a narcissist to try to get my head around the clarity i need at court, and it is incredible how accurate it is in describing how the narcissist goes about the court process in a totally destructive way that draws the LBS in and makes the LBS appear to be "difficult" too. This is exactly what is happing to me -- all I want is to settle but the judge screams at both of us for refusing to settle. Last time I was there she was yelling at me, "Do you really want to be those people who waste all that time and money refusing to settle? Stop it!"

But as a result of these things, I start to doubt my entire life with him, to wonder if he was lying for 18 years or if I was blind. I remembered that a long time ago, before I came to faith, he was talking about his faith and his need for God, and he said, "You have no idea how terrible I am." At the time I didn't get it. When I came to faith I thought I understood what he meant. Now I wonder if he was facing who he actually had been all along, and decided to give in to that. I don't want to believe his rewriting of history. But for some time now I wondered if I married, in a sense, my mother, since so many things are exactly the same since MLC, and all that is happening is exactly what I went through as a teen with my parents, and I always thought I would avoid at all costs!

DnJ -- do you battle that too or are you very sure that your W was nothing like who she is now? Are you confident that you couldn't have known?

Tomorrow I have court and I am battling Ye Olde Fears.

Tomorrow's agenda -- to show the court that I am physically afraid of H and he cannot return to the house, that I am out of money and can no longer pay him anything, that he has not paid child support last month and I assume won't this coming month and that I have now proposed settlement three times and he refuses to settle. But it's hard to get my lawyer to see how important all these things are.

What I fear is that she won't listen to any of this and just like last time will scream at both of us for not settling and will try to punish me for not settling by allowing him to move back even though I want nothing more than to settle. I fear that I will have to promise to give him money when there is no way for me to get anymore. I fear that he will be allowed back.

H thinks that the court-ordered appraisal is wrong, that he will be able to get 1.5 times the appraised value in a bidding war that I guess will magically happen immediately after putting the house on the market, that he can force me to sell instead of buying him out. He does not even respond to the idea that it would be better not to move the kids during the school year.

I am falling asleep while writing, last night could not sleep at all so it must be caching up to me. So I will close up shop but with extreme gratitude and will write a better reply about your other options soon.


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Good Morning Gerda

Best of luck today with court.

I am glad you are reading a book about divorcing a narcissist. I bet it was amazing and affirming when H’s behaviour was laid out on the pages you were reading. There is comfort in that. In knowing you/we are not the only ones. This is more common than we realize(d).

I think you and I are dancing around the same idea; slightly different views and syntax.

Surrendering one’s will and not eating ice cream every meal, or lying, stealing, cheating, etc... - is the first step. That blind obedience. One then rebels and challenges the idea, usually has some karmic cause and effect befall them, finds the wisdom within said idea, and then chooses to follow their new found wisdom. Chooses their free will; no longer surrendered.

I did/do this kind of thing. Lol. When W and I were first moved in together and all of life is at your command, all that freedom. We had Nanaimo bars and ice cream for a few meals. Oh my goodness. I felt sooooo sick. Haha haha. We choose to not eat half a pan of sugary goodness for supper.

The people around you, me, us LBS, that live through a spouse suffering such a crisis, these people are also trying to wrap their head around what is going on. However, their view, their lens, their understanding is not your’s. The MLCer rewrites their history, weaves such a tale, which ensnares themselves and quite often others in the periphery, those outside the blast radius.

We, LBS do get caught up in that rewrite as well. Sword and shield Gerda! You know the life your lived and had before he changed. You have pictures, letters, memories, etc... Doubts are perfectly fine, and normal. I think you know better than to drink his koolaid - or those who mean well but haven’t lived this.

Originally Posted by Gerda
DnJ -- do you battle that too or are you very sure that your W was nothing like who she is now? Are you confident that you couldn't have known?

For 30 years her and I enjoyed our lives together.

I think she was always this person, this tormented soul from long ago. It was just hidden from me and her.

You see both views are correct. And with that in mind - Yes, I am confident that I couldn’t have, and didn’t, know this. And she was nothing like she is now. The MLCer changes completely 180 degrees, and that new person was always lurking within them, silenced for so long, unheard for decades, until they burst forth.

Have faith in your choice of mate, lover, friend, and companion. You had many good years - Do not forget that.

Now let go.

This is so very hard Gerda, and I feel for you. I’ve live through it. Lost more than ever, and then gained more than I ever thought I could.

My hopes are with you today.

DnJ


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I don't know if I survived today. I guess I am still alive. I was so miserable on my way in and thinking about how I was heading to my crucifixion and suddenly i thought, wait, I do not have to be crucified, Christ already did that for me, and I felt a lightness. But my L told me to be more vocal today and it got out of hand. At one point my lawyer had to push H's lawyer away from me physically, H's evil horrible L started to get in my face again and so I leaned into his face and started shouting, "You are going to get in my face? Come and get in my face!" And my L had to sort of push him away from me. And at one point the L's were arguing about H wanting to add an insane amount of money to the appraised value to "allow" me to buy him out instead of forcing a sale and H was sitting there so I sat next to H and started saying, "You arguing for a million for the kids? You want to trade a million for the kids? You need that million for S14?" And H ran out of the room. Mostly it was endless screaming again. They will not give ground on anything, will not accept the appraisals and insist on forcing a sale, trying to force everything. I had tried to give way on a lot, agreeing to put house on market in order to be able to try to meet the price of the highest bidder, but then I took stip home to review and I am just in shock. They are demanding I keep paying him every month when I am totally out of money, forcing me to continue cover all carrying costs and saying he will NOT PAY CHILD SUPPORT NOW BUT WILL I WILL RECEIVE A CREDIT BORROWED OFF HIS SHARE OF THE FINAL SALE!!!! I feel like my lawyer sold me down the river. I am not going to sign but I am sick at heart. My L is not doing anything for me. So so so lonely today. My S14 heard me talking on phone to L when I didn't know, and now he also knows about OW, had a panic attack at school. H picked up D10 from school and when she came home she told me that OW and her H live in the same house but don't sleep in the same bed because she's Papa's girlfriend.

I don't even know what I am saying right now, I am spiraling.

Thank you, DnJ. I wish you were here but I think this time you will have to make the tea, I am in a puddle on the floor and just want to cry but the kids are here...

Last edited by Gerda; 10/24/19 01:48 AM.

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Tea?!?

Sounds like whiskey time. Lol.

I am so sorry Gerda. Be strong.

You have custody agreed upon, right? What is the arrangement? 50/50? Share if you like. Be accurate. smile It helps. I know I’ve ask before and could probably find your answer, but I’m lazy. Haha. Or giving your mind something to do.

So with custody settled, all that’s left is money. Negotiating is taking a toll on you, and your accounts. I do trust your judgement in this, and I support your efforts at court. That being said, if the settlement is getting closer, or close enough, your health and happiness is worth a lot more. Only you know all the details.

I do wish we could sit an enjoy a cup of coffee and tea - heavy cream and sugar. (Those haters can go svck eggs. Haha. I still laugh from when you said that.) Advice and encouragement - I’m really a lot better in real time. smile Oh well, you’re stuck with me like this.

Let the kids think about things for a while. When they come to you, listen and validate their views. For right now don’t worry about correcting H’s misinformation about sleeping arrangements that he told D10. Kids have a way of “seeing” the truth of things.

D10 has already acknowledged Papa cheated on you - this shows she knows about proper relationship values and roles of Mom and Dad. She also call OW, Papa’s girlfriend - this is good. D10 needs to accept this, and understand it. And that is perfectly age appropriate. Well done Mom!!

Listen and validate. Gentle steer D10 and S15 when warranted.

I know this does not feel good. You know I’m going to say something about following feelings. Sword and shield dear friend - logic and reason. Intellectual car stuff.

Pour out your emotions here or into a pillow or on a walk. Then get in that car. Think about your situation. Write down your thoughts - those well reasoned thoughts and the goals you are after in negotiations. I would love to hear them, and completely understand if you choose not to share them here. With goals written down, regroup, breath deeply, and keep moving forward.

(((Gerda)))

DnJ


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Gerda:

I'm sorry this is so tough on you. I keep trying to think of what I could say to make it better for you in some way but I lack the belief to comfort you in the way that you seem to want to be comforted. I think I also see a lot of myself in you. Mental strength and toughness, probably control issues, and maybe some interpersonal rigidity. Not being able to have any control in my situation has been very tough and I have battled it greatly. But, at some point I stopped fighting it and decided that this whole situation was a great way for me to learn humility, grace, and letting go. I try to focus on that now, and to fight what feels like ego wanting to win or get my way.

I sometimes wonder if you did a little frame shift on how you think about these matters it might empower you. For example, you frequently refer to yourself as "little" Gerda, implying perhaps subconsciously, that you are weak. You seem more like the mighty Gerda to me. Very sure of yourself and your belief in your own positions. I have many times gotten the impression that your husband is afraid of you and I wonder that you don't use this more to your advantage.

I also wonder why you guys have so many courtroom showdowns. If things are becoming violent, then the parties should not be meeting up. Did you try a mediation with a qualified family mediator where you and your husband are in different rooms for the whole time? One session where you bang everything out. This is how most family cases resolve when people can't work it out between themselves.

I know you don't want to have to move the kids during the school year, but if that is causing so much stress to you and expense, it seems like maybe it might be better to do it now. I imagine the lawyer has given you an indication of whether they think the house will have to be sold as part of the divorce. If it is to happen, then wouldn't it be better to give him half of a real number now and be done with him rather than half of a hypothetical number that you have to spend countless stress and dollars getting to?

Also, what did your lawyer think about him withholding child support pending an offset at sale while you have to pay him support now? Seems an odd situation. If he can offset and has the means to pay his lawyer, then why wouldn't you be able to do the same?

I have heard it said many times that if you can't change your situation, then you have to change the way you feel about your situation. That would seem to fit here. You seem very much like a survivor to me. Someone who will find a way to make things happen to make things happen one way or another.

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Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

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