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Last night I made the mistake of opening the door for an R talk, ended up talking for 3 hours. H is now thinking he wants to move out. He is still in love with the AP and told me he'd spoken with her a couple of times and texted with her a few times, to see how she's doing. He said something to the effect of "she's not very happy about all this" but didn't elaborate and I didn't ask. he didn't say anything about seeing her a couple of weeks ago.

He said he didn't see being able to repair the R between us, he can't see how I could forgive him and trust him again, or that he could forgive himself. He thinks maybe he's just a bad person. He cried a little. He actively is in love with AP and can't believe it would be possible to have romantic/passionate feelings for me again. He doesn't want to let go of how he feels about her. His next trip to her city is in 2 weeks. He said he didn't know that it would be possible to let go of the feelings he had for her-- we talked a little about the fact that he's never had a serious GF before, never said "ILY" to anyone before me, and so he has no context or experience in getting over someone. He said "I've never broken up with someone before" which sticks with me a little-- wondering what that means (was definitely not in reference to what is going on between the two of us but more like what is going on between him and the AP.

I did a lot of validating and listening (good). I also argued for working on our R as being the best thing for all of us with the best possible outcome, that we could always go down the road of D once we knew we tried everything, and brought up the kids (bad). He said everything I am saying is logical and basically all the same arguments in his own head for staying but emotionally he isn't there and his mental health is suffering. He does believe that if we both were to commit to rebuilding a new R and were 100% in, we might be able to do it, but he doesn't know how to get there or if he wants to.

He said the sex the other night "didn't do a lot for my cause" because he didn't feel any big emotional connection. (He lasted about a minute for context, not on purpose.) He did it because it felt natural and he wanted to see how he felt. I said OK, I understood how he felt, but that I wasn't expecting that it would magically fix things and he shouldn't either. He is really against doing anything that doesn't feel natural.

His vision of a D is now that I live here with the kids, he picks them up from school, stays through dinner, and then just goes to his own place. He would still come mow the lawn and do all the same stuff he does now, including paying half the mortgage. He imagines that it would be exactly the same as it is now, except he would go to his own place to sleep. The kids wouldn't see anything different between their parents (because we are already in a sexless M). I think he imagines that the Al move here and when I reacted to that (bad I know) he said he imagined that I would be FRIENDS with her. (Now from my perspective I think this is all still a crazy fantasy and would never work but if we are going to go down that road, me having the house and the kids full time and no financial consequence seems a lot better than what has been going on in my head, but I can't believe he would actually give that all up when it came down to it.)

He's refusing to cut off all contact with her and doesn't want drag it out with me/ "postpone the inevitable" because he's been trying for so long but also clearly because he knows she's not going to wait around forever. Every time we've talked it seems like either he's getting more infatuated with her as time goes on or he's letting me see more of it.

We ended up just going to bed last night in our MB (he said "I feel like I should sleep in the office" and I said "I don't think you have to" and he just got in bed and went to sleep. I tried but barely slept.

I know I shouldn't have opened the door for an R talk-- he clearly isn't ready. This morning he said he's worried that I'm idealizing him and he'll never be able to make me happy because maybe he's just a bad person. (This is someone whose identity is definitely tied up in his vision of himself as a good/moral/right person-- what his choices are doing to him are pretty significant and devastating, and I think he can't believe that our R is salvagable because it would make his behavior all the worse.)

So... I messed up, I heard things I didn't want to hear, feel that I pushed him a little further down the road since he said out loud he was thinking about moving out. What should I do now? This morning after talking about having done something that has caused him to have a moral injury, I validated. He said "we just need to take this one day at a time," that we don't need to make any big decisions right now (maybe backing off a bit from last night.) I think I need some advice on what to do next, and what I could have done differently/better last night.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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We all have had those relationship talks and heard things that we didn't want to hear. So, pick yourself up, dust yourself off and look to tomorrow as a brand new day.

I would not have another relationship talk w/him at the moment. He's "thinking" about moving out and that doesn't necessarily mean that he will. It could be his way of telling you to back off. He's right, you need to take it one day at a time and you do not need to decide today or tomorrow what you want done in the way of a divorce.

Get back into Galing and continue to detach. Live your life to the fullest and just leave him be. If he moves out, it will be his decision and not one that you helped to make for him.

It's okay...we all have fallen into the trap of relationship talks.

Tomorrow is a new day and you will begin anew with detaching and doing for you.


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
job #2868166 10/13/19 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by job

I would not have another relationship talk w/him at the moment....Live your life to the fullest and just leave him be.

Job, thanks so much. I have a few logistical questions-- OK to have a talk about other things, work etc related? One reason why this happened is because I'm trying to avoid just sitting next to each other on the couch watching TV after the kids go to bed-- for the first few weeks post-BD we spent that time having good and deep conversations, most non-R related, with me practicing validation rather than giving advice or solving his problems, and it really did help us both to feel closer. (180 for both of us.) But should I just leave him completely alone -- he turns on the TV and I go read a book or do work?

If he does start an R talk, just say I'm not ready to have this discussion right now?


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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Originally Posted by "May"
If he does start an R talk, just say I'm not ready to have this discussion right now?

Hi May! Your second question is easier. If they want to share, by all means encourage them, and validate.

Him: "I want to talk about our R"
You: "Okay, I'm listening."
Him: "What do you think about X?"
You: "Since you brought it up, I'm curious about your feelings."
Him: <blah> <blah> <blah>
You: "Wow, so you feel <blah> <blah> <blah"
Him: "Yes, so I think it's best to do Y. Don't you agree?
You: "I'd need to think about it."

Last edited by CWarrior; 10/13/19 10:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by "May"
But should I just leave him completely alone -- he turns on the TV and I go read a book or do work?

Your first question is harder. He's in an EA, is likely to try to further things when he visits her in two weeks, and has a fantasy that he can have his cake (family dinners with you and the kids) and eat it too (spend evenings with his lover). You're in a tough place just now--wishing you strength and luck.

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Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by "May"
If he does start an R talk, just say I'm not ready to have this discussion right now?

Hi May! Your second question is easier. If they want to share, by all means encourage them, and validate.

Him: "I want to talk about our R"
You: "Okay, I'm listening."
Him: "What do you think about X?"
You: "Since you brought it up, I'm curious about your feelings."
Him: <blah> <blah> <blah>
You: "Wow, so you feel <blah> <blah> <blah"
Him: "Yes, so I think it's best to do Y. Don't you agree?
You: "I'd need to think about it."


CW, this is gold... I need to memorize it and be ready. I think there is a chance he'll want to continue the convo tonight.

Originally Posted by CWarrior

Your first question is harder. He's in an EA, is likely to try to further things when he visits her in two weeks, and has a fantasy that he can have his cake (family dinners with you and the kids) and eat it too (spend evenings with his lover). You're in a tough place just now--wishing you strength and luck.


I know-- I think we're both longing for some kind of clarity, like it would be easier if he just made up his mind one way or the other. I get the feeling that she might be giving him a little static. But, he was originally planning on going for a week and a half, including a weekend-- even up till yesterday was still verbally weighing the pros and cons-- and today just booked flights to only be away for 5 days, including staying here on Saturday night for an event we were both invited to for my work (and he wasn't all that stoked about attending, but knew it was important to me) and tickets he bought for a show later that night (which ironically is a program he was introduced to by the AP early on, they went to this same thing). I'm not trying to make any assumptions one way or the other, but he definitely had justification to go for a week and a half and skip these events here with me, and he chose not to.

In the meantime... I'll keep those responses at the ready should I need them, and focus on GAL, detaching (haha, not quite there yet), being pleasant and not giving him any excuses to make an easy decision.


Me (46) H (42)
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May, R talks are pressure and WAS's hate pressure. His responses were very predictable. He's confused, he's not in love with you, he doesn't know what to do but he still wants out of the M. Blah blah blah. It's straight-up script. R talks are pointless because what he is telling you is just a reflection of how he feels at that moment in time. He will speak in absolutes ("there's no chance for us", "it's over for good") but his feelings can and will change. It may take a week or a month or a year or even longer. But he won't always feel the same as he thinks he does right now.

Originally Posted by may22
I did a lot of validating and listening (good). I also argued for working on our R as being the best thing for all of us with the best possible outcome


That's not validating or listening. That is the opposite. When you validate you take a neutral stance. You're not arguing for the M, you're not arguing against it. You're just letting him talk and offering supportive comments. "That must be difficult to go through". That said, be careful that you don't say or do anything that implies you SUPPORT him in this affair. You can validate, but you've also got to take a "tough love" approach with him. Don't make it a secret that you find his affair activities distasteful.

Quote
His vision of a D is now that I live here with the kids, he picks them up from school, stays through dinner, and then just goes to his own place.


Here is where he needs a "tough love" wakeup call. Your response should have been along the lines of "Once you are out of the house I want you to respect my privacy, I will not allow you to stay for dinner or drop by unannounced. If separation and divorce is what you want then I can't stop you, but I will not allow you to continue to use me as if we are married while you are engaging in an affair." WAS's have a fantasy about how great life will be after S and D. You need to put him on notice that A) you are not going to contribute to his fantasy and B) you fully intend to have your OWN SEPARATE LIFE from him after S and/ or D. This will have a big impact on him, right now he sees you as someone he can disrespect and use and string along. Once he realizes you may move on without him, he will see you as "higher value". He's got to learn he may lose you in this.

Quote
Now from my perspective I think this is all still a crazy fantasy and would never work but if we are going to go down that road, me having the house and the kids full time and no financial consequence seems a lot better than what has been going on in my head, but I can't believe he would actually give that all up when it came down to it.


You are right, it's a fantasy. It will never work that way, it's not sustainable for multiple reasons. Insist on a written agreement regarding support and child custody if you separate. Don't rely on his promises of support.
Quote

We ended up just going to bed last night in our MB (he said "I feel like I should sleep in the office" and I said "I don't think you have to" and he just got in bed and went to sleep. I tried but barely slept.


Next time he offers to sleep elsewhere then AGREE. Tell him you think it's a good idea to make that permanent since he is in an affair. Again, he's got to think he may lose you. You've got to bring the cake-eating to a stop.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

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Thanks AS, I needed this tough love smile

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

That said, be careful that you don't say or do anything that implies you SUPPORT him in this affair. You can validate, but you've also got to take a "tough love" approach with him. Don't make it a secret that you find his affair activities distasteful.


My stance on his EA to him has been that I understand how he got there but that he has to realize he didn't just "fall" into it by accident... he made a series of choices that led to the situation, and he could have made different choices at every step. I'm especially angry that he started this while in the middle of MC, which we ended up stopping a couple of months after he started the EA (I didn't know that at the time) because he felt like the MC was on "my side" and totally shut down in the sessions. He continued in IC with a different counselor (had started with the IC to work on some of his own stuff like anger management). He has said he is sorry he is in the EA and sorry he got to the place where he was open to it, but that he doesn't regret it.

Regarding continuing the EA-- this is the first R talk we've had where he's admitted to continued contact. The previous R talks (including the BD) he told me he wasn't in contact with her at all while he wasn't in a place to move their R forward-- haha sounds like she is trying to LRS him). I'd asked him after BD to promise not to contact her while we were still married out of respect for me and the future need for trust between us regardless of what happens (R or co-parenting) and he agreed 'for the time being' but refused to put a timeline on it. After he told me this last time that he has spoken to her a couple of times and texted a bit (but that she "isn't happy") I didn't say anything about respect and I didn't ask him to not talk to her-- I asked why he hadn't told me previously (he didn't know) and said that we'll never be able to work on how we might rebuild a new R if he's still in contact with her and has her on her mind. Was that OK? I didn't want to act like I was jealous of her (I'm not to be honest) and I didn't want to ask him again to do something that is too hard for him to stick to (NC). I mostly just pointed out that we aren't seeing if we could "fall back in love again" (something he had said) until the AP is completely out of the picture. Was that OK?

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Next time he offers to sleep elsewhere then AGREE. Tell him you think it's a good idea to make that permanent since he is in an affair. Again, he's got to think he may lose you. You've got to bring the cake-eating to a stop.


So I did that the last time and it ended up being SO stressful for me that the kids were going to notice. It lasted 2-3 weeks and then he quietly moved back into the MR. I read someone on this forum saying they would rather have their kids see their parents going through some difficulties now than to be divorced-- feel that is good advice (thanks and sorry I can't remember who you are!) but I have a huge amount of anxiety about the kids... so that is why I didn't push him into sleeping in the office. The other thing is that I think the AP is pushing him for some action that demonstrates he's choosing her, and I didn't want to give him a reason from me (like agreeing that it would be for the best) to have one. He told me during our R talk (in the context of his continuing conversations with AP) that I had probably noticed he was "off" at lunch the day before (I hadn't) and he said he was depressed, I think about her.

So far his words have been exactly what you said, AP-- following the script, plus (this is probably script too) some "I'm not good enough/ you'll never be able to forgive me" stuff. However, some of his language about me and our R has improved-- he had previously been in negative sentiment override and I was the villain holding him back etc; now he is much kinder, can talk about fun and positive memories from our past, etc. He spent some time the other night elaborating about what it is he loves about me and how he's proud of me, etc-- he said (because I had withheld sex for so long) that he had just learned to love me another way (without passion).

But his actions seem to be more on my side. He's living at home, sleeping in the MB, cut his upcoming trip to her city in half AND reduced a day on the front end to ensure he could attend an event he knew was important to me (though when he told me why he moved his flight till the next day, it was because Saturday was going to be so busy with soccer/swim meets for the kids during the day, it would be too hard to leave that day. And as an afterthought, plus then we can go to those two things in the evening.)

I guess where I am right now is in this crazy awful limbo-- he isn't choosing her and he isn't choosing me-- and I've been feeling that if I can focus on the 180s/GALs/ detaching and avoid R talks, the EA may burn itself out since she seems to be looking for some action on his part towards S or D and he hasn't actually made that yet, with the exception of telling me that she exists. If I can keep my composure and patience through this (be the lighthouse) is there a good reason to kick him out of the MB or house?


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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No one is perfect. So you started an R talk . Lesson learned . It the big picture a small blip. Don’t believe any of what he says . And half of what he does . He’s talking about a fantasy of you and AP being friends . Do not allow that even into your head .

AP may be giving him some static . Stay on your course keep DBing the EA may very well burn out on its own . I would not make any decisions right now after a relationship talk with the MBR or house .

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Thanks, Caligirl. No R talks since then, just regular positive interactions.... just need to stay the course (marathon, not a sprint). I know I'll be pretty stressed as it gets closer to the time he leaves on his business trip on Sunday, and stressed while he's gone-- hoping I can use this time to really focus on myself, GALing, and detaching... though easier said than done.

Going out tonight for drinks with friends!


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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