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Things are trending up... #2867854
10/10/19 05:34 AM
10/10/19 05:34 AM
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unchien Offline OP
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Re: Things are trending up... [Re: unchien] #2867857
10/10/19 06:02 AM
10/10/19 06:02 AM
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unchien Offline OP
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Originally Posted by LH19
U,

If you follow my posts I comment a lot about how winning her back, making grand gestures etc. only works in the movies. I never will forget my MC saying that when two people come to see her and their attitude is divorce is not an option she has a 100% success rate. I have also read that 75% of people who filed for divorce 5 years later say they wished they would have tried harder.

If she is ever to be in that 75%, I completely believe it will take 5 years to get to that point.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by unchien
The problem I have here is that I do believe she resents me for the move.


Oh sure, she does NOW! That's my point, that's what rewriting history means. A year ago she was completely fine with it, said it was best for the family, and she wasn't lying! At that time she believed what she was saying. Now? It was a terrible idea that unchien forced her into against her will, and she resents you for it. That right there is classic rewriting of history. She wasn't lying then, she isn't lying now. If you're looking at the marriage through rose-colored glasses she has inky-black glasses on, now she sees the bad as bad and the good as bad and everything in-between as bad. With time she will remember there were good things in the M, but not now, and not for a good long while. So when she talks crazy talk you listen and validate and dismiss. Don't let it keep you up at night.

The thing is I do think she resents me for the move. She just never admitted it. She instead had 100 other things to complain about and eventually I just felt inadequate and got more and more desperate to try to fix things.

I was in a minor text skirmish with her tonight. I no longer avoid them completely. At one point I said, "Why do you always assume the worst in me?" and she responded "Because you blah blah blah..."

Rather than, I dunno, "I don't always assume the worst in you."

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

I think there is a certain amount of inevitability to many of our sitches. I spent a lot of time considering what I should have done differently. How I could have been a better husband and father. My conclusion? I could have done better but I don't think it would have changed anything. What my XW went through, I don't think any actions on my part could have prevented it. I think the same could be said for most people here, maybe not all but certainly most. The people who end up here are not flaming jerks, they are good, loving, dedicated, loyal people who don't understand why they are here and are truly heart-broken and desperate to make things better. What does that kind of person sound like? A great spouse, that's what. When my XW and I had our ill-fated attempts at MC the C asked W if she respected me, and she said yes. She asked if she loved me and she said yes. She said "what about the sex, is he selfish in that regard? Doesn't meet your needs?" She said "Oh the sex is fantastic, in fact I wouldn't mind continuing to have sex!" The C looked GENUINELY astonished at these answers. She looked at W and said "So you love him, respect him and have great sex with him. In marriage counseling we call those the 3 pillars of a marriage, without any one of them the marriage can't be held up. But what you're describing we call the makings of a great marriage! So what exactly is wrong?" She said "I don't know, I just don't want to be married anymore."

That's a long story but the point is simply that it may have been inevitable regardless of what you may have done differently.

I also think I could have done better. I resist saying, "I did my best" because there is no such things as one's best. But I did try.

Sometimes I wonder if the move was the instigator for this, and I know it's pointless. Would we be happily married had we not moved? And that is just impossible to know. We were under incredible financial stress. We could just as well have moved a year later, to a different city. Maybe something else would have changed. I know I probably would have stayed in my NGS mode.

To your point, maybe it was inevitable. Whatever my W is dealing with, past traumas, her own baggage... I can't help her with that.

Re: Things are trending up... [Re: unchien] #2867862
10/10/19 10:53 AM
10/10/19 10:53 AM
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LH19 Offline
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Statistics say that your W probably starting thinking about the divorce before you moved and before your D was born and that the move was her last ditch effort to be happy. It's very common and we see it here all the time that WW drop the bomb after being in their dream house for 6 months. They are acting on emotions and not logic and reason.

I know that you don't believe it now but I promise you that two years from now you will be ten times happier then you feel today. I can guarantee it.


M:51 W:46
T:22 M:16
S:15 D:11

“Don't chase people. Be yourself, do your own thing and work hard. The right people - the ones who really belong in your life - will come to you and stay.”- Will Smith
Re: Things are trending up... [Re: unchien] #2867868
10/10/19 01:05 PM
10/10/19 01:05 PM
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IronWill Offline
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The timescale for this is ultra-long. I don't think many people fathom just how much of a marathon it is. I am only beginning to get it now and it's been 13 months for me.

It may take years for a WAS to realize they threw something good away. Or they may never realize it.

Sobering stuff, for sure.

Re: Things are trending up... [Re: IronWill] #2867871
10/10/19 02:02 PM
10/10/19 02:02 PM
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Many worries Offline
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Originally Posted by IronWill
The timescale for this is ultra-long. I don't think many people fathom just how much of a marathon it is. I am only beginning to get it now and it's been 13 months for me.

It may take years for a WAS to realize they threw something good away. Or they may never realize it.

Sobering stuff, for sure.


Truth. But it also works for the LBS. The sad reality is that many LBS here make changes for a few months then complain about their spouse aren't recognizing their "change" They seem to want their spouse to instantly realize that the LBS is a new person and life will be better and grand.

Um no, it doesn't work like that. Not at all. For most of the WAS, their resentment, etc was built up over years. The LBS did things to harm the marriage for YEARS. A few months of changes isn't going to make that disappear. Doing the LBS drill of working out, going to church, becoming a super parent, isn't going to fix that.

And even if things do get better and the LBS and WAS reconcile...that process to heal the marriage will take years. it isn't instantly going back to the same marriage. I see so many LBS give up, move one because the work, the waiting is just too hard. (I'm not saying they are wrong or bad people) Everyone makes their own choices about how long they want to live in limbo.

Re: Things are trending up... [Re: Many worries] #2867880
10/10/19 04:11 PM
10/10/19 04:11 PM
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Quote
I see so many LBS give up, move on because the work, the waiting is just too hard. (I'm not saying they are wrong or bad people) Everyone makes their own choices about how long they want to live in limbo.


Truth. I'm surrounded by well meaning friends who encourage me to file first, to move on and throwing out words like "new beginnings". These people don't understand that I'm a LBS that did major damage to WAH for years.

We've been together for 30 years and this will sound completely insane but given the extent of the damage I've done I think it would be disrespectful to give up, file or move on. It's like hey sorry I hurt you in ways I will never fully understand but I'm tired of waiting so here are your papers and can you hurry it up my new bf is waiting.

I owe it to WAH to make amends even I never see him again. Amends is changing my behavior for the better (we have kids), GAL, detaching to heal and staying single. Unless it harms me or my kids I will wait until he ends limbo (he will end it eventually) and I won't date until 2 years after the D is final.

The work is brutal and the thought of waiting years is depressing but having a clean conscious knowing I did everything I could to save our family will be worth it.

Last edited by kas99; 10/10/19 04:14 PM.
Re: Things are trending up... [Re: Many worries] #2867882
10/10/19 04:34 PM
10/10/19 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Many worries
Originally Posted by IronWill
The timescale for this is ultra-long. I don't think many people fathom just how much of a marathon it is. I am only beginning to get it now and it's been 13 months for me.

It may take years for a WAS to realize they threw something good away. Or they may never realize it.

Sobering stuff, for sure.


Truth. But it also works for the LBS. The sad reality is that many LBS here make changes for a few months then complain about their spouse aren't recognizing their "change" They seem to want their spouse to instantly realize that the LBS is a new person and life will be better and grand.

Um no, it doesn't work like that. Not at all. For most of the WAS, their resentment, etc was built up over years. The LBS did things to harm the marriage for YEARS. A few months of changes isn't going to make that disappear. Doing the LBS drill of working out, going to church, becoming a super parent, isn't going to fix that.

And even if things do get better and the LBS and WAS reconcile...that process to heal the marriage will take years. it isn't instantly going back to the same marriage. I see so many LBS give up, move one because the work, the waiting is just too hard. (I'm not saying they are wrong or bad people) Everyone makes their own choices about how long they want to live in limbo.


Agreed. I would also note that the LBS usually has a tendency to over-exaggerate the faults that were shown to them during the BD - because they were delivered during a highly emotional, sensitive, and stressful time. It takes lots of distance and the ability to change perspective outside of oneself for the LBS to understand that, while there were problems in the MR, it is not solely the LBS that caused the MR distress.

Yes, it is the responsibility of every LBS to change for the better for themselves. But the WAS has just as much responsibility to own up to their own side of the issues, once they come out of their crisis/fog/call it what you will. If they do not, whether it be through Recon or a new R, they will end up kicking the can down the road and have the same thing happen again and again.

Re: Things are trending up... [Re: Many worries] #2867884
10/10/19 04:44 PM
10/10/19 04:44 PM
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unchien Offline OP
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Originally Posted by LH19
Statistics say that your W probably starting thinking about the divorce before you moved and before your D was born and that the move was her last ditch effort to be happy. It's very common and we see it here all the time that WW drop the bomb after being in their dream house for 6 months. They are acting on emotions and not logic and reason.

I know that you don't believe it now but I promise you that two years from now you will be ten times happier then you feel today. I can guarantee it.

LH19 - I do believe the D seeds were sown before we moved. We had owned a house in the prior city. We sold that house, with the intent of renting for a year and making some decisions about whether to stay or move (my job situation was very unstable there). That year of renting was incredibly stressful. Towards the end, day by day we would think we were staying, moving to city A, moving to city B, etc.

We could have stayed and rented another year. Or purchased a less expensive home. My W turned down those options. I didn't force her to move. We were both fully on board.

Anyhow, I completely agree with you that the beginning of the D goes back probably 3 years.

Originally Posted by IronWill
The timescale for this is ultra-long. I don't think many people fathom just how much of a marathon it is. I am only beginning to get it now and it's been 13 months for me.

It may take years for a WAS to realize they threw something good away. Or they may never realize it.

Sobering stuff, for sure.

IW - I'm not even sure she's throwing something "good" away. I think it could be good. Maybe it wouldn't be. That's the thing about DB... after awhile, my brain more and more has accepted that ANY future will be good. That is the sweet spot where I want to be. That is letting go. I'm going to make my life good. She can be a part of it or not. If she's by my side, I will work to be a great partner.

Originally Posted by Many worries
The sad reality is that many LBS here make changes for a few months then complain about their spouse aren't recognizing their "change" They seem to want their spouse to instantly realize that the LBS is a new person and life will be better and grand.

Um no, it doesn't work like that. Not at all. For most of the WAS, their resentment, etc was built up over years. The LBS did things to harm the marriage for YEARS. A few months of changes isn't going to make that disappear. Doing the LBS drill of working out, going to church, becoming a super parent, isn't going to fix that.

And even if things do get better and the LBS and WAS reconcile...that process to heal the marriage will take years. it isn't instantly going back to the same marriage. I see so many LBS give up, move one because the work, the waiting is just too hard. (I'm not saying they are wrong or bad people) Everyone makes their own choices about how long they want to live in limbo.

MW - I think about this too sometimes. I have made so many changes in the past 6 months. But the thing is, I recognized my baggage for years, read books, went to IC, and it wasn't enough. It took the horrific pain of dealing with my MR falling apart to FORCE me to change.

I believe people are capable of change, but it takes a LOT for people to change. The universe almost has to force people to change. This is just a personal opinion. I look at my W and her issues, and I think... it's not so easy to just address one's own baggage. That sounds paternalistic, but it's not. It's not as if I am "fixed" - I have only scratched the surface.

I don't think those changes mean my W should accept me back. In fact, for us to ever reconcile, I would need to see her work to make changes. I understand this is an emotional time and it's unreasonable to expect she's going to change right now, nor should I ever expect her to change. Her resentment is thick, her knee-jerk mind-reading prevents her from hearing what I try to communicate. I need her to see value in a partnership with me.

I contributed to our MR falling apart. She did too. She doesn't see it that way. There's no getting around it. We both were ill-equipped to handle the stress of 3 kids and a relocation. I accept my part. I also don't think this is a matter of me fixing myself and then her accepting me back.

I haven't necessarily given up on limbo. I was in limbo for about 12 months (ramping up from a "some things are wrong with our MR" to "my W is shutting down communication and researching D"). We agreed to separate (I moved out). She asked for time and space. As I saw it, she was in a heightened emotional state and staying in the home was unhealthy for all of us - me, her, the kids. I moved out because it made more sense logistically. I could sense my W was emotionally building up and it was not healthy. Moving out was a relief valve for us all.

The problem is that we are spending more than we take in now. That pressure has forced action. 4 months into physical separation, although we have gone to counseling (about 1x/month now), my W has shown zero interest in talking about our marriage issues. The financial pressure combined with zero movement has really forced us both to acknowledge this isn't working.

I'm not really giving up on her. I am very in touch with what changes I would need to see (or at least, the beginnings of changes) in order for me to go back to the MR, to move in with her. It would take baby steps. She cut me deep. I will never forget some of the things she has said and done. That's not to say I am incapable of forgiveness. But those memories are touchstones which remind me not to go back to my NGS tendencies and accept a lousy partnership.

I made my own mistakes too. I am ready to talk, when she is ready. The reality is we are going to need to go through with this D, and all the painful emotions associated with that. Maybe years down the road, my W will want to come back and work on things. Maybe I will be here with an open mind. Maybe not. I don't know. I haven't given up.

I think of the metaphor posted sometimes here about walking down the path. The LBS walks down the path, periodically shining a flashlight back in case the WAS wants to come along. The LBS is not standing still. Sometimes the LBS confuses Limbo with standing still.

I think we often confuse Limbo with that period of time between "WAS has expressed a desire to divorce" and "actual divorce filing." I don't think Limbo is defined by specific events or timelines. We are in Limbo when it is unclear where our MR is going. Yes, we can choose to exit Limbo by giving up on the MR. That is *not* the same as proceeding with a D. I haven't given up. However, this is not sustainable. I am repeatedly reminded by my W of how I have, more or less, ruined her life (in her mind). It is not healthy for me to wait for her. In the meantime, my relationship with my kids, albeit with long gaps of time without seeing them, is better than ever. I cannot wait years in limbo, financially digging a hole, hoping that this person who thinks I am a monster (at the moment) is going to change and be willing to work on things. I'm not even sure that is best for my kids anymore.

This is a long rambling response. I guess I'm trying to sort this out. I haven't given up.

Re: Things are trending up... [Re: kas99] #2867885
10/10/19 04:49 PM
10/10/19 04:49 PM
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unchien Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kas99

Truth. I'm surrounded by well meaning friends who encourage me to file first, to move on and throwing out words like "new beginnings". These people don't understand that I'm a LBS that did major damage to WAH for years.

We've been together for 30 years and this will sound completely insane but given the extent of the damage I've done I think it would be disrespectful to give up, file or move on. It's like hey sorry I hurt you in ways I will never fully understand but I'm tired of waiting so here are your papers and can you hurry it up my new bf is waiting.

I owe it to WAH to make amends even I never see him again. Amends is changing my behavior for the better (we have kids), GAL, detaching to heal and staying single. Unless it harms me or my kids I will wait until he ends limbo (he will end it eventually) and I won't date until 2 years after the D is final.

The work is brutal and the thought of waiting years is depressing but having a clean conscious knowing I did everything I could to save our family will be worth it.

kas - I like your mindset. I have empathy for my W amidst all the other conflicting emotions. The most respectful thing I can do is work on myself and address my issues - for my sake, for my kids, for all my relationships with friends and family and colleagues.

Re: Things are trending up... [Re: IronWill] #2867886
10/10/19 04:52 PM
10/10/19 04:52 PM
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unchien Offline OP
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Originally Posted by IronWill
Agreed. I would also note that the LBS usually has a tendency to over-exaggerate the faults that were shown to them during the BD - because they were delivered during a highly emotional, sensitive, and stressful time. It takes lots of distance and the ability to change perspective outside of oneself for the LBS to understand that, while there were problems in the MR, it is not solely the LBS that caused the MR distress.

Yes, it is the responsibility of every LBS to change for the better for themselves. But the WAS has just as much responsibility to own up to their own side of the issues, once they come out of their crisis/fog/call it what you will. If they do not, whether it be through Recon or a new R, they will end up kicking the can down the road and have the same thing happen again and again.

This ^^^^^

Limbo cannot be about the LBS feeling guilty and horrible and 100% to blame. I spent over a year obsessing over my issues and contributions to our MR failures. When I spent some time 2 months ago thinking about my W's issues, and what I would like to see her work on, and my conditions for a reconciliation, I felt so much better. It helps me stay true to my own values, and not get sucked into feeling guilty and down about myself.

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